The Ringer NBA Show - Team USA Shows Out in Scrimmage Against Canada. Plus: Monica McNutt on WNBA Discourse and ROTY Race | Real Ones

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Logan and Howard dive into all things Team USA, including their scrimmage against Canada, news of Kawhi Leonard leaving the team, and the surprising omission of Jaylen Brown (1:00). Then, producer Kerm joins to aid the duo in answering your mailbag questions (37:00). Later, Logan sits down with Monica McNutt to discuss the WNBA, her interaction on air with Stephen A. Smith, and the Rookie of the Year race (1:07:00). Email us your mailbag questions at [e-mail]! Hosts: Logan Murdock and Howard Beck Guest: Monica McNutt Producers: Devon Renaldo, Eduardo Ocampo, and Jonathan Kermah Video: John Richter Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, football fans, we know that the NFL offseason can seem long and dark, but the Ringer NFL show is here to shine a light on all the big training camp developments and front office news around the league. Join me, Shield Capadia, and a rotating cast of Ringer favorites that includes Noura Preciati, Stephen Ruiz, Austin, Gail, and Lindsay Jones throughout the summer months, and stay up to date on what your favorite team is cooking up for the 2024 season. subscribe to the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast

and follow Ringer NFL on Instagram and TikTok and at Ringer NFL on X and YouTube. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here, Howard, motherfucking back there. Roger Bell on the recruiting trail. Kerm is in the building, Devin Ronaldo on the Edicts. I am in Vegas, so we're going to talk about Team USA

and then some other stuff. Then we got Monica Mnett in a second. Before we get to that, Howard, I'm just tired. I'm at my wits and I don't know. If you guys see the video, it looked like I'm a witness protection for my hotel room. It feels that way I am. I'm pooped. I've been here too long.

I don't like this place. I'm really, I'm at that stage right now. I just, Howard, help. Vegas will cook you literally, figuratively, and any other adverbs that I can't come up with at this hour of the morning. Vegas will cook you in every which way. And you look like you are about 85% of the way cooked, Logan. You got to get out of there, man. For your own well-being, for the sake of our show, for the good of the ringer, the people, everybody.

You got to get the hell out of it. I'm tapping it. So, like, I don't think we're even going to see each other. I'll be there in two days and you're going to be gone. And then I'm going to be cooked about a week later. I feel like Kermexpertz real concerned with my health when I got on the call today. I don't look great. I don't look great at all.

I have a spa day after this. There you go. This episode. So we're going to go ahead and wrap this shit up in a few. But yes, I'm here for Team USA. It was a great experience. That's cool. I've never, for all the NBA coverage, basketball coverage I've done,

never covered Team USA. No particular reason. Just hasn't come up. So I did see, I did not watch the game last night, full disclosure, because we are the real ones. And I'm going to keep it a real. I'm going to keep it real with the listeners. Did not watch last night.

I'm on a slight working vacation. So I'm in California visiting family. Did not have time. Watch a few highlights. You were there for the big, hyped exhibition. It looked like a packed house. U.S. versus Canada. President Obama in the building.

It was popping. Jerry Colangelo, former director of the USA program in the building, all kinds of luminaries. For an exhibition game, I mean, obviously, this is no ordinary exhibition game. Like, there's some of the greatest players on Earth there. But for a pre-Olympic exhibition that looked like it actually was a pretty cool event, Logan, what was the vibe like? So this is my first time ever like going anything to USA related.

So I didn't really have any expectations going in. I figured it'd be a lot of, you know, superstars and players playing together. I was excited just to see the combination of all these stars figuring it out. And the one thing that people always say the cliched answer is it's like, you know, you put your egos. to the side. You got to adjust your game and all these things. But then like you get to see the scrimmages and you see that these players are really having to change their, how they play in real time. You're seeing LeBron being a supercomputer, but also figuring out how he's going to get Curry involved into the offense, right? You're seeing Anthony Edwards trying to make his imprint on

the world stage while also kind of just getting, you know, his feet under him. and also getting guidance from all his older vets. And then on top of that, you're seeing luminaries at practice, right? Like on Tuesday, Coach K was there on one end. Dwayne Wade is on the other end, mellows on one end, right?

You're just seeing Kai's kind of linger, and then Kamala Harris pulls up. It was nothing I could actually compare it to. Like I thought before coming here, it was going to be like, oh, I guess, you know, I've covered a few finals, you know,

maybe it's something like that. But it was something bigger than what you see at a finals event, right? Like, you're playing for the world and you're playing for your country and everyone is on the same team. And, you know, it's also fascinating to see the scrimmages. The scrimmages were some stuff that I will carry for the rest of my life, right? Because it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see LeBron playing with Steph, playing with Booker, playing with M.B., playing with, like,

it's like you're looking at a history book. It was so fascinating. Then to go to the game was another beast, because everywhere you look, there's a luminary. There's, you know, Cheryl Miller's over here, and Lisa Leslie's over there, and it was wild. And then, like, Barack Obama's there, and you're seeing, like, his crazy security detail.

And, like, literally him holding up the game because the Team USA alumni want to go say what's up to them. They got there trying to get them off the court, but the reps are like, that's Barack Obama. You know, like how do you tell Barack Obama anything, right? And then Barack was, after he was on the court, they gave him his own dressing area.

I don't know if you were, have you been to Team Mobile Arena, but there's like a dressing room. There's like a dressing room like off by where the press conference is. There's like an extra dressing room right in the midst of the tunnel. And then, like, you see Savannah, James and Zuri coming out, like, after meeting Obama and how, like, Zerri is, right? And it was just, like, really cool moments like that. It was something that I could, I'm literally explaining in real time, but something that I fully won't be able to comprehend until later.

But it was a crazy, unique experience to go to Team USA. It was dope. That's awesome, man. That's awesome. I mean, it's. And we're not, we haven't talked about the game yet. No. You know, like, it was just crazy just to see all these, that was where the people watching was like was the elite thing.

Because you know, like in the arena, like, we're going to get to the game and the ramifications and things like that. But when you're an arena, it's about the people watching. It's about everything that else that's going on around. And that was just, that was all time. Did you, I assume they wouldn't let media get anywhere near the former president. Like you can't, you can't just go say what's up to Obama. No. And also, like, he don't know me for nothing.

So Obama came towards us because the, where the media section, also we had great media seats. Shout out to Team USA for holding it down. You know, you know, we're getting, you know how it is as a media. We are as a media time right now. They'd be playing us. But they had us really, really good. We had, like, I think the first, like six rows on the baseline. And so we were where our media seat was the tunnel that he goes through was right there.

So we got like a great vantage point of him anyway. but no, we could not go towards Obama. In fact, it was funny because with like three minutes left, a couple Team USAPR people. And it's Team USAPR people with NBA PR people. They're working in tandem together. So this was an NBA PR person. And she was like, just FYI, you guys need to sit in your seats.

We've got to get the president out of the building before you guys. Yeah, there you go. Can get up. And I was like, this is fucking crazy. This is so, it was just, it was a wild experience. And that was coming on the heels of like Kamala Harris just pulling up to practice just out of nowhere, right? Like we're watching the day before on Tuesday. I remember I saw Steve Kerr like go to the door where the entrance is at the Mendenhall Center.

And he comes back out and there's like five or six cameras like on him. And I'm like, why is that happening? It's just Steve Kerr. He's not that special right now. It's five days in. Like we know that he's the coach of Team USA, right? And then you see like this blue pants. suit. And then you're like, what the fuck? And then it's Kamala Harris. It's like, oh, oh my God.

Okay. All right. All right. Madam Vice President. And then she's talking and it was that she leaves. And then, but you see also like secret service trying to make a pathway for her to get out while also not making it hot. Like it was weird to see that. Right. Like she's, they're making it like a way for her to get out, but also want to do it subtly. So it was crazy to like see secret service there. And then how like their security detail works. And then she makes a beeline to Lisa Leslie. And that was a cool moment. And then she just, she leaves without a,

without a flash, like 20 minutes. Oh, Kamala was here. And then she's gone. And yeah. And so it was just, and then Obama was just like, it was wild. Yeah,

that's a hell of a week. Yeah. So. On top of the basketball players that we saw. It was crazy. Obama's way bigger than LeBron. I'm sorry. And he knows it too, by the way.

Barack knows he's the baddest motherfucker in the room at all times. It's crazy. I don't know how much you can pick up. Like, because you're in, like, I know these situations sometimes. Like, you're in the room, but you're not actually, like, close enough to pick up on what's going on most of the time. Could you pick up on anything exchanges between players and Kamala, Steve Kerr and Kamala? Or, like, the Obama thing, like, he's in the arena, so it's probably loud as hell. I'm just wondering if anybody's, like, by the way,

really need you up in this race right now, Mr. President or Matt of Vice President. I really could use some help. Like anything? Any vibes? I'm just going off of like body language with both of them, right? I think you could, well, Kamala like it was interesting because she gravitated towards Steph a lot. And you could see that there's a familiarity there. There's a familiarity there. But you know like how Michelle Obama it felt like a few years back would always gravitate towards LeBron? Like during these. these Olympic, during, like, at least the last few Olympics that I've watched, the politician, like, picks their person, right? And then you kind of, like, gravitate

towards that person and the politician that is coming there. And in this case, it was, Kamala makes a B-line to Steph. And then she uses Steph as a way to get introduced to everybody else, right? And then it was also interesting, and I'm not really making anything of it. It's just an observation. But, like, LeBron, it was interesting that LeBron, like, kind of stayed in the cut when Kamala's appearance, because usually he's out front in terms of like just everything, right? And he kind of played in the background. And usually he's, especially in an election year, James is like really politically active and really like, you know, more than a vote in all these things. And I'm not saying, I'm not putting this. It was just an observation. He really laid in a cut.

And he shook her hand, but it wasn't like as enthusiastic as in other times where he has seen politicians, you know. So that was really interesting to me. I'm really in my journalistic bag right now, Howard. Like I'm just like, you know, just inferring from a lot of just things that we see. Like, oh, that was just an interesting visual. So that was Kamala, right? Like Kamala, she, she bearded a lot towards Steph. And like, everybody was just, I think, in awe of, like, seeing her.

Like, it was also happened so fast that I think that everybody was just in shock that she pulled up. Obama, he took the room by storm in a different way. I think everybody just wanted to meet him, right? I think that there was a moment where at halftime, Carmelo comes up, and then Carmelo meets, sees Obama again. I know they saw each other a lot, and then they take a picture, Melo, Dwayne Wade, and Obama. And then after a while, Carmelo looks back and gets his son and gets his son to go meet Obama. And that was a really cool moment to see.

Ty and Anthony get pulled over by his dad to go see to meet the former president. That was a pretty cool moment. But like it was more of, I don't, I can't say what the conversations were. But it seemed with Obama that it was, it was a different, oh shit, I got to meet this guy. Whereas Kamala, it felt like, wow, she's here. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

That was the difference. But everybody was like. The thing with Obama was everybody wanted to get their Obama moment when he was walking around. Like I saw PJ Carlissimo stand up and was like waiting to get a hello while while Obama's trying to meet with Coach K. PJ Carlissimo was just like standing up at attention like, okay, it's going to be my turn eventually, right? It was one of those things like Spencer Haywood made a B-line. It was funny because like after the alumni, during Team USA they would do an alumni like shout out, right? like this is this is the team

USA from the 50s from the 60s from the woo and then after that Spencer Haywood who had his Easter suit on it was a beautiful suit just got to just put that out there for the record for all my real ones to know it was a beautiful suit but like it was cool moment like this is when

I say let Obama stop the game because like afterwards you see Reggie I think it was Reggie Miller Gary Payton and Spencer Haywood go over and talk to Obama and they're just like talking to him and then after for a while, it was like two minutes and like, you gotta get y'all off the floor, we have a game. But they were hell of juice to see them.

That's just an example of just the difference, right? It was like a shock and all that common was there. But when Obama was there, people were like breaking their next to go try to meet you. And then they had a game, apparently. And they had a game. Yeah, it was a game. Apparently there was a game. So saw some highlights, looked at the box score, read some stuff.

And yeah, looks like the star studded, very skewed, older, but stars studded, obviously, with like a bazillion MVP's and finals MVP's on Team USA. It was too much for Team Canada, shocker. And I don't mean that as a slight of Team Canada, because they've got some really great talent. But you look at their talent and you look at the USA's talent. And it's just not the same caliber. And Canada will be fine, I'm sure, when the games start, the Olympic Games. Anything, I'm of the opinion that there's nothing to draw out of any of these things. Like, they call it a friendly for a reason. Like, it's not, everyone's just getting warmed up. They've got a few more exhibitions to go before the Olympics begin.

We had the Kauai Leonard out, Derek White, in Saga yesterday. Is there anything in the world of Team USA on the actual basketball court or with the roster maneuvering that struck you as being particularly important as we get inch closer to the games? Well, the thing with the Kauai situation, one, it's concerning from a health standpoint for Kauai, right? And for the clippers. And for the clippers. after letting Paul George walk.

Yeah, it's not a good look for all of those things that you just mentioned, right? And there was a bit of, I don't know, not concerned for Kauai, but just like a sadness, man, right? Because, like, he's this guy that is really, really good and talented when he's on the floor. But it felt like an inevitability that he wasn't going to, if he was going to play all the Olympics, he probably wasn't going to play a full season next year, right? Like, and I think that was the calculus to go into this decision. One, that. And then, too, like, he's having to.

haven't, he, it just took until two weeks ago for him not to feel inflammation. Like, that's really concerning, right? He came into camp with a sleeve on one of his knees. And it felt like it was just going to be a drag to keep him on there. And you need Kauai at full strength at this level. Derek White is just somebody that you can just kind of put in. He's a great defender. And it's kind of, and I know there was a Jalen Brown suite, but I feel like Derek Wright is the, the type of player that this team meets at this juncture, right? They don't need another wing score who is going to... Now, Jalen Kahn is a great defender,

a capable defender, and I'm sure that he would play into the role perfectly. But in terms of just like optics and things like that, like this was... When I say optics, I mean, you know, you bring in a finals MVP. The assumption is that he's going to want to take all of the shots and want to...

At least I see an assumption. Yeah. Fair or not. And Derek Wright is somebody that you know you can slip in as a person that can be a defender, and a guy that that's more of what they need for this iteration of the Team USA roster. At least that's what the calculus is in Vegas.

And Grant Hill as director, whatever his title is of Team USA in addressing this yesterday, kind of alluded to the same, Logan, right? Like he basically said this is about, you know, fit and roles and all that. That's fine. And it's not like there's not a history of Team USA being like, you know, whatever, 9, 10, you know, perennial all-stars and then a couple of guys who like serve a role like a rebounding big a defensive wing what like that happens it's not always 12 all-stars so fine but this is like super awkward jalen brown just won finals MVP a couple of weeks ago yeah derrick white is his teammate on the celtics

and it's pretty clear which one of them is the the better player with the higher profile on top of all that okay, fit. I get it in the sense that Derek White, like as great a defender as Jalen Brown as Derek White is a cut above. And maybe you think it's better to have one more guy out there who will defend it an incredibly high level and can put all of his energy into that because the only other thing he's going to do is maybe some spot-up shooting.

He doesn't have to score. You've got all these potent scores around him, right? So I get that, Logan. But Team USA, the history of Team USA, since we went to the professionals, you know, starting with the dream team in 1992, has been absolute studs, absolute legends, all-timers, sacrificing, fitting in. That's the whole story. And it's what they all pledged to do.

And it's what they all, by and large, willingly do to be part of something this prestigious, to be to have this honor. Why do we talk about Olympic Mello other than the fact that he's won a bunch of golds? It's because Olympic Mello was super effective as a guy who just played off of everybody else. who insisted on being the absolute center of the universe on every team he was ever on in the NBA, sometimes perhaps to the detriment of those teams at times, was absolutely willing to defer to LeBron and Wade

and the rest of those guys and Kobe, but it made him super dangerous as a guy playing off the ball and playing a role. Why would Grant Hill, or I don't want to say it was Steve Kerr or anybody on the coaching staff, I don't even know if it was Grant Hill. I mean, it has to be Grand Hill.

It's his job. why would anybody associated with Team USA think that Jalen Brown wasn't capable of being like Carmelo and actually better than Carmelo in a lot of ways because he's a much better defender than Carmelo and as a guy who has played a number two role his whole career he is actually kind of programmed as a pro

to be the complimentary type star. And also by the way, Howard, he has played the role that Derek Wright is asked to play on Team USA. He's done it before. He's done it in this rookie year, his sophomore year. He has been done that at the high.

level. Like I feel like it is it was a it was a curious decision right and I know Jalen is probably I mean I know he feels slighted but we saw the tweets like clearly he's also looking at it like what does this have to do with my reputation around the league right like or what does this have to do with because there was you know you look on on all the socials and there's the comparison Isaiah Thomas being you know pushed off and I don't know the circumstances on this when in terms of like how people feel about Jalen Brown. I just know that Jalen Brown is going to feel that people feel a way about him and that's probably the reason why he is off the team. Like, yeah, you blame Nike, but I think he feels like it's a, it's a bigger

slight, like, yo, I am the finals MVP. I've shown that I can be good. What is, what's wrong with me? Is it something, is it, you know, how I go about talking about my messaging around the league or off the court stuff? What do you like, do you not, like, do you guys feel bad about me?

that you don't feel like I'm capable of maintaining myself on a world stage. Like there's a lot of things that are going through his head right now. I'm sure of it, right? And I think that it has, he feels like this is not a basketball decision, right? And, you know, I think he has a lot of, there's a lot of thing that's warranted in that. You know, like, does he not? And I think there's something, too, that if he feels like that, which I do feel like he feels like. All right.

So, Logan, you know me a long time. You know, like, I am not one to buy into cheap conspirators. theories. And in fact, my first reaction, the second one is floated is to immediately be skeptical of it. And I'm skeptical of the Nike thing. I just don't like, I get it. Yeah, I'm skeptical of that part. I mean, is it possible? Sure. Is Nike powerful? Sure. But like, is Team USA purely a Nike operation? And they've got the ability to keep Jalen Brown off because he said some stuff about Nike. I saw some sketchers, uh, red, white, blue shoes on, on Embeddeed. They were ugly as well, but I saw them. I'm a Skechers guy. So that's great. Anybody wearing allbirds?

So, Raymond Ritter. Shout out to Raymond. So I'm skeptical of the shoe part of it, but I will say this. The choice does say something, Logan. We don't know as we sit here the morning after what it says. I've done no reporting on this.

Like I said, I'm on semi-vocation. You're out there, but we don't really have clarity right now. Also, because it's so new. Reporting takes time. It just, yeah, it does. It does.

But this, and it's just happened. And like, there's a lot of things that are opaque in this world that we cover. Team USA maneuverings tend to be among the more opaque, I think. Like, it's, it's, it's, I don't, we'll, we'll find out. We will find out eventually. They're like, the murmurings will, will be out there. And then it's a matter of trying to figure out what's, what's real and what's just speculative. But it does say something.

I will say that comfortably. When you pass up the reigning finals MVP, think about it by, fit too or just in terms of role. Kauai Leonard. What's the appeal of Kauai Leonard on the Olympic team? Oh, great score lockdown defender. Jalen Brown, not a defender at Kauai Laird's level, but like same basic position, same basic

size. And if he's focusing specifically on defense, he is a shutdown defender in my eyes. Like if he's not yeah, I think he could be. Yeah, Steve Kirk could just go to him and say like, listen, we brought you on the team for one reason. We know you can score when needed. We don't think we're going to need it. I want you putting 99.9.9%

of your energy. How long Russell West Brooke in 2012. And it would work. And I think Jalen Brown would do that, by the way. So that they decided to pass on him says something, whether it's about his personality, whether it's about his play, whether it's about how I don't, like I don't, I hate saying these things out loud because then it sounds like I'm saying that these things might be the case. I don't know what's the case. I'm not going to say that it's like how other players felt about him or how the coaches felt about him. But all those things are on the table, Logan. There's only a short list of reasons. I will say this though. And I don't know the report.

isn't out there just yet. But I do believe that, remember that tweet a few years back that he did in the support of Kyrie and he messed up, that has a lot of ramifications on the way a lot of people feel about Shailin Brown. Sure. But would it be enough to keep him off this team? Well, I would say no.

I don't, it shouldn't. It should not. It should not. It should not. I don't know if it did or didn't because we are not there yet, right? Yeah. Are the politics of USA basketball such that they look at it and say, like, we just don't even need the possibility

of this coming up or something, right? Exactly. That's what I'm saying, right? Like, that is, if you were to tell me that, that is a plausible thing that I would believe, right? But I do know that that, that, I do know that that had effect on how a lot of people viewed him in this league, that one tweet from, what was it, 22, I think ball 22, after Kyrie.

You had that sit down with him, like, around that time, right? Yeah, yeah. And I, and the thing, you know, and I've, I haven't talked to, Jalen sense, but like just even from like looking at the transcript of of that interview. Like he was definitely going through a, you know, he was going through a time during that time and finding his voice, right? And finding his voice on and off the floor.

And you know, there's missteps that come with that, right? And he had those. He has acknowledged those. But that doesn't change how I don't want to say the powers of it because I'm not trying to be conspiracy either. But I do know that that had an effect on, you know, just how people view him in general. And, you know, even him aligning with, you know, with Kyrie Irving in terms of things that, that raised a lot of eyebrows and rolled a lot of eyes, right?

And, you know, those things do, like, those things do affect other things in a vacuum more than you, than the average person would know. I'm not sure which is the worst thing, Logan. If they kept them off for political or image perception reasons or if they kept them off basketball reasons. Because either one of those, then you start to get into the details of it. And either one speaks well maybe of how they make their decisions. And also, you know, one way or another, it ends up being some sort of indictment against Jalen Brown. And I don't think that – and I think that's really unfair because I think that Jalen is – by all accounts that have –

Like, you know, his teammates always have loved him. You know, he's always been, you know, a professional. He's always been somebody that is also played really well, right? Like, he is one of the great success stories of this season, you know? So that would be unfair if that was the case. Anything else on Team USA before we move on to other topics in our world? You know, it's cool, man. I got two things that I think really stuck out there.

I haven't brought up yet. One, the Steve Kerr-Lebron dynamic, that's something that's really, I think that'll be really fun to look at. Because I've talked to Steve a few times while I've been in Vegas, and he is so, so, so excited to coach LeBron. Like, I think that's something that he has really been looking forward to just being on the West Coast. Like, their relationship has just kind of been just, hey, how you doing, LeBron? Like, pre-game banter and, you know, maybe, like, roast at each other while they're on the court and stuff. But, like, there's always been a mutual respect. But over the last, let's say, what, two or three months this season in, they have gotten really close.

It's been really cool to see that relationship blossoming. And it's also like Steve is one of the most accomplished humans ever in the history of basketball in terms of coaching. Not so much executives, but like coaching and playing. He has seen everyone. He's like a forest gun figure. And he doesn't really get excited about much, right? Like he's, you know, because he's seen it all. Yeah.

He was genuinely excited whenever I talked, like just, I talked to him both before the, before we got to Vegas and then we talked, we talked a couple of days ago for some piece that I'm working, that I've been working on that's been out. But we talked on the phone for that. And that was after a practice. And he was so excited just to see LeBron up close. see him the way he calls out defenses, the way he is a stickler for time. He's just fascinated by him.

The way that, you know, he interacts with teammates, the way that he's, he still want to be first in every drill after all these years. And I saw that on the way LeBron, there was a, there was a one of those free throw shooting competitions, right? I think one of the guys missed and, you know, after you got to run. it's like it's a it's a drill that that is his oldest time where you know you miss a pre-throw or something like oh man let's do this like quick run lebron was number one on the run like he was number one out of the whole team and he's the oldest guy on the floor and that's what

the type of shit that gets steve real juice and it's that's been really cool to see and that's just the inner weaving that's what team USA does right it puts guys that don't normally ever see it's different than an All-Star game because you're actually playing competitively. And you're playing for a common goal. That's a different type of championship. But it's the greatest in the world. And to see just Steve just be, he's always been intrigued by LeBron, but to see him just get giddy every single day to coach him has been really cool to see. And the other thing that I've been like really watching is just Anthony Edwards.

I'm really pissed off about this part. First off, I asked the question that got the number one option quote. and I'm like, damn it, because, you know, I could have saved that, and I could have got that quote in a ringer piece, but, you know, neither here nor there. You've been there before Howard. Yeah, yeah. No, it's like, do I ask in the scrum or the press conference? Can I pull them off to the side?

What if I don't have a chance to get him off to the side on this particular thing, then I don't get a chance to ask it at all, but now it's out there and everybody gets to you. Yeah, yeah. Now it lives in infamy. So really pissed off about that. But anyway, what I'm not pissed off about is just watching just like Anthony kind of come to his own, right? And he's laying his stick in the sand right now.

He is marking his territory. And he has this incredible balance of like egotistical confidence with humility. And I don't think people know how important that is, right? He knows he's going to be the best player on the floor. But yet he has tried to learn from all of the greats at one time, right? Like he's, he's, uh, warming up with LeBron, right, pregame. And then he's asking advice from Katie and he's also being a leader on the floor. But also he's like, no, I'm, I'm going to be the man here.

And I'm going to carry myself like the man here. And this is going to, this is, forget the next Olympics. This is my shit right now. Yeah. And it's really been, that's been really cool to see. Anthony Edwards is like, I've obviously. seen him afar, right? I'm on the West Coast, so, you know, you see the Minnesota Timberwolves when they come

into town, right? Or you see him in Sack. Maybe I've probably seen him play like twice this season, right, as he's come of age. But to see him every day at work and just like, he's a dude, he's a dude. He's going to be a dude for a while, right? Like, this is the guy that everyone is kind of gravitating towards. And I'm excited to see him, not only this one, this Olympians is going to be fun. but like the next Olympics when he's like when it's his team.

Because make no mistake, it's going to be Anthony Edwards team. You could just see it with the, with how people gravitate towards me. I like the fact that one of the quotes I saw from him the other day, it was just like, like he actually had some nerves. Like he actually gets butterfly. Like it's cool when guys are human enough and humble enough to say like, yeah, I've been in the public spotlight for, you know,

most of my basketball playing life already. He's still really young, though. You know, he's now had a nice deep playoff run. he's out of the Michael Jordan stuff and all this. These things dealt with some things. But for him to be able to say like, all right, this is different.

This is the Olympics. This is, and it was an exhibition game, no less against Canada in Las Vegas, but he's still like that he admits to some nerves and butterflies or just a different kind of excitement. Like I think that's really cool. But that's always,

that's what we've loved about him since he got to the league anyway, right? Like, is that the fact that he, his heart's on his sleeve and his, his emotions. He's so honest. He's so honest. And I think like in the era of,

I'm going to call this era that we're in the era of the smoke screen because everybody wants to say some subliminal bullshit. Everybody wants to send a tweet off, right? Everybody just, they don't want to. He's a throwback to your time, Howard, where like people just kind of just said what's on their mind. I've done so many LeBron pressers this week that I'm just like, okay. You know, like, you know, everybody knows a LeBron presser

where you're just like, okay, who are you subliminally talking about here. I don't feel like I'm getting a full answer there. You know, and it's just really, it's really cool to just get like someone's true thoughts on a situation, you know, and how they're going through it in real time. You know, and it's like, shout out to everybody that covers Ant in Minnesota because, you know, you got to treat in terms of quotables, you know, like to just have that every, like, somebody that was like around Draymond every day and like knew that if you didn't have a story that day that

Dreemann can just give it to you because he's just going to say some like very insightful maybe sometimes wild shit or maybe sometimes smart shit right that's it's really cool to like just to cover Edwards for a week because you get you get that from him and that was just

he's just been great. Did we just make him the de facto real one of the week because he's so real? Okay that's just lazy Howard. You're doing that because we're doing a real one of the week. Full clear transparency. Real one of the week has been kicking Howard's ass all season. It's been kicking his ass.

I think I have kicked back. I'm never letting you live down with Fred Katz ruin of the week. I'll never let you live that one down. I'm never letting you live that one down. Dude, that was that was fantastic. That was as real as it gets. Shout out to Fred Katz for being really real about Nick's locker room farts. By the way, by the way, there's been a lot of real ones in Vegas.

Shout out to all the real ones in Vegas who have been showing love to the podcast. It's weird because people don't know my face, but they know my face. but they know my voice. So I'd just be having regular conference. Like, I was in the Shake Shack. Shout to my man when I was in the Shake Shack line at T-Mobile. I'm just talking to the home. Always a good move.

Shake-Shack. Always a good move. I was talking to the homie and, like, he was like, are you, are you, Logan, Erdog? And I'm like, and you can't escape. But like, if somebody says, are you such and such, because you look like such-and-such-such, you can be like, nah, I ain't such-and-such. But, like, my, I can't go. No, I'm not.

I'm not, Logan, that's not me. I can't. I can't. That's just not sustainable. And so, it's just so weird to, like, get my voice to be recognized. Right?

And just say, like, yo, be a big dog. That's not me, bro. It's not me, man. You got the wrong one.

My name is, my name is Curb. Oh, the Lakers suck. The Lakers suck. Okay. See, damn,

now I'm fucked up because I did my, my backup voices. Now my backup voices are all fucked up. Now I can't even do that anymore. No. When does Kerm turn into Isaac Hayes, by the way?

Hey. Hey, we all go have a real one's hang out one of these times and you're going to realize that Kerm is Isaac Hayes. Outside. Ain't that right, Kerm? Ain't that right Kerm? He's just refusing to flip the fucking camera on. Y'all are ridiculous.

I love Isaac Hayes, though. So I'll take it as a copy of you. Yeah. A Barry White Kerm, too. You know what I mean? He got the, yeah, he's doing it. poetry right now. Yo, I can't, that's, that's an idea.

We're going to do another skid idea. We're going to have the Barry White Kerm. When we come back next season, it's going to be the Barry White Kerm. It's going to be like a 75 minute intro. And then we're going to go right into the pod. If Kerm could like do British, Australian and like, you know, Russian accents, he can, he can do Isaac K's. He can do Barry White.

You know what? Honestly, that's a great, that's a great segue. Let's get into the segue, man. Like, you know, Kerm's here. Let's fucking get into the motherfucking mailbag. Like, he's in a good mood. Let's see what accents we get, you know? If somebody's from Detroit, maybe he's going to judge them.

Maybe he has a Detroit accent, you know what I mean? Or because he got to, I don't know. Hello, Kerm. It's been a while. We haven't seen you. You've been ducking us. Hey, I'm going to say this right now. Duckness is crazy.

Fuck the midnight boys for taking Kerm away from us on Mondays. How about that? Podcast beep. You can say that. Podcast beep. You took Kerm away from us for our Monday show. I don't see my buddy no more. Matter of fact, you're working

to half the death. We used to be at Kermm used to have a great texting relationship. Now Kerm's so motherfucking tired that I just get a like on the things that I text him. I don't even, and I don't even get no text back. It takes like two days to get a text back from Kerm.

What the fuck? Midnight boys. Wait, is that permanent? Wow. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I just go ahead. We lose Khy? We lose Kerm on Mondays. Like, how are we, like, all the other podcasts They're stealing, stealing our guys. Everybody steals our fucking tower.

We're rebuilding. We're rebuilding, guys. It's okay. You know, I'm still here. He's still our executive producer. And that's okay. He's our executive producer. But it's fucking bullshit.

We fucking, everybody's taking our people. Let me just say this. I'll take Kerm over the lottery balls any day. Yep. I don't want to tank. That means the world's me, man. I want to take the established town. Franchise player, Kerm.

Anyways. Let's get to these bail-back questions, man. They don't treat you like that. Bed-day boys. They don't treat. I know they don't. Bambi Bann doesn't treat you like that. Chuck, we know Chuck's a prima don't Diva, so you know he don't treat you good.

Come home, Kerm. I'm going to leave that there because, you know, again, I got to see those guys on Mondays and Wednesdays, so I can't confirm or deny what's being said here. All right. Our first mailbag question is from Blair, and it's titled Human Trade Exception and the 2nd April. I've been hearing the term human trade exception being used more frequently, given the difficulty of making trades under the second apron where salaries must match perfectly down to the last decimal. Do you think it would be beneficial for general managers across the league to collaborate and sign certain players to contracts tailored to facilitate future trades? These human trade exceptions could help make multiple team trades more feasible and allow teams to move around star players more easily under the stringent salary cap.

rules thoughts this is you Howard this is you by the way go check out the ringer dot com Howard did a great piece basically was just

shitting on all of the things that we talked about with the second apron how it was going to be a terrible thing for the league and you know I guess he made some points

but I'm still you know you made it feel no look the second apron is brutal but the point of my most recent piece and I wrote about this twice

before a free agency opened and then just after a week of it and yeah a week in you know shit we got a lot of stuff happened And not all of it was straight free agent signings, right?

A lot of it was trades. But that's kind of what the apron and the second apron have forced is that sometimes in a tighter market, as everybody's adjusting, if you want talent, you're going to have to trade for it because you don't have. But we've always had years where like only three teams have cap room and all the transactions are signing trades or trades. So the phrase human trade exception term, that was actually in the email. I have not heard that phrase up until this moment.

So I don't know what the hell that. I don't know what a human trade exception. exception as opposed to just a trade exception because you trade humans into trade exceptions. In fact, every trade exception is about signing and or trading a human NBA players. So I don't

know what that phrase is exactly. You know, there wasn't one human trade exception, Andre Guadalore who fucking got traded to the Memphis Grizzlies and just got a crazy trade exception for the Warriors. And he didn't play a game for the Memphis Grizzlies. So he could be a human trade exception. But it's not, but

every trade exception involves a human. I don't, whatever, it's weird. I googled human trade exception. It's not a thing. But my bad guys. I just read, I read what he said. You know what I'm saying? I thought I didn't know.

I thought it was some new shit. You thought it was a new shit. You thought that was a new fly shit. You thought about a little human trade exception. Let me ask the God about this. Let me ask the God Howard Beck about the human training. I'm going to have to shoot a text to a Dan Rubin, Ron Klemner, the NBA, and Players Union lead lawyer negotiator types

to see where in the new CBA, the place human trade exception is. Howard's on the phone. Hey, Pam, what you know about this new human trade exception that we got pop it over here at the streets? I'm pretty sure they're both going to tell me that's not a thing. Okay.

The idea of like, like it's interesting. So we almost have salary slots now, right? We've got max salaries and you've got all these exceptions. And you almost, it's not quite specific slots at specific numbers uniformly across the board. But you almost have that in the league anyway, and the tighter the cap gets, it's not a hard cap, but it's getting damn close. It almost becomes that. But the idea that the listener suggested of conspiring to sign guys to the same number so that you can trade them if you're at the second apron, when you have to match dollar for dollar and penny for penny, it's just not feasible. It's not practical. You'd have to be conspiring years ahead of time. You'd have to know that I'm going to have a moment a few years from now when, I need to trade, you know, whoever it may be, Michael Porter Jr. And we've already planned, it doesn't work.

Another thing, though, Howard, is like, if they were, say in the instance, if they were trying to, like, sign dollar for dollar just to stay under the second apron, like, players and their agents are going to know that, if you, as soon as you trade them to that, or as soon as you sign them to that deal, they're going to know that they're going to be a tradable asset. As soon as you do that, like the dollar for dollar stuff. Like, I think about the Paul George, him on the podcast, right where also there's a fascinating like you actually watch the latest episode of podcast p because it's

the fascinating thing where he talks about the negotiations and i know like there was some stuff that was on that podcast that was like player driven right like a player narrative and like it's very biased but there was one part of the episode where like paul george is talking about the negotiation like to the point where he's talking about the offers that the clippers gave him and he talks about how I think they gave the first offer was like two for 60, right? He was like, that's a fucking low ball, right? And then they asked him, they said,

they offered three, I think, for 150. And then he countered with, well, you need to give me four years for 220. Or you need to give me like four years. He asked for it. First he acts for it. I only watched the clip one time, so forgive me. But he acts for a trade clause

in the second one because he was like, hey, man, like, y'all, it seems like you guys are to trade me. Like if you guys don't, I want the guarantee, if you guys say that you guys want me here long turn away, you say you do, I want a trade, a trade clause. And then he goes and says, well, I want 212. And it was interesting the reasoning as to why he did it. And the back and forth that goes on a negotiation, right?

But I feel like if somebody were to talk to you about a second apron or like, hey, man, we need to do a dollar for dollar right here. This league is so small with so many, like, with the finite amount of agents, I just don't think that that's going to fly. I mean, it might not fly with the map, but it's just not going to fly from a human element. Like, you know you're going to get traded.

If somebody says like, hey, I need you to like take this one penny less. Well, why? Well, because we're going to try to trade you to keep deals with the second apron. That just doesn't make sense. It also requires GMs to see the future. Like, you may sign a guy,

this happens. You sign a guy knowing, you know what, I'm signing him just to protect the asset. He's not part of our long term. plans and I'm going to trade him at some point. But you don't know exactly who you're going to trade him for. And the other team that you're going to trade him to also knows that they're going to trade their guy.

And you're excited with GMs, though. Another thing with GMs though, man, like some are like future, like looking towards a future, but most are just trying to keep their job. Yeah. They're doing enough to try to just keep their job. They're not trying, like, like the RC Buford, that's different, right? Like, you know, the, the long time ones, that's different. they can look towards the future for things.

But by and large, like, this is a competitive business. And like, if you're not, they're trying to get to the next summer straight up. They're not trying. They're not planning that far ahead. They can't. It's not how to lead works. Yeah. Sorry.

No human trade exceptions. No five years out plans to trade guys by signing them to the exact same contract. Sorry. I don't know what the hell I'm doing five minutes from now. I think I know what I'm doing five years from now. Real shit. Real shit. I appreciate.

Wow. You gave me snaps, did you give me snaps? It's a habit, man. It's a habit. I was just going to let that go. Next, we got it from Rob. It's titled Best One Man Playoff Runs.

And fortunately for you guys, he's from England. Let's get it. Evening lads. Evening lads for the MFN mailbag. I'm writing from all the way from North of England near Sheffield. If you need a reference for the accent, then think of John Snow in Game of Thrones. Fuck all that.

I'm just knowing my British accent. That's all I know. You're just discussed over the past few episodes about who's the better player between Tatum and Brown or the back court of the Mavs being one of the strongest. You've touched on super teams, George and the Sixers, but never on this. Well, I want your opinion on who won the title

with the least help. Myself and my dad were arguing the other day. He thinks it's Hakeem and the 94 Rockies. it's pre-Drexler, whereas I'm a Dirkman, and think it's the 2011 Mavericks. Derek also had the harder playoff schedule, I think. What are your thoughts? Are there any other candidates?

Thank you, gentlemen. Wow. Rob. Kerm, one-man playoff run. I try. I try. Clap some Kerm. Put in the post.

I do what I can. Put the team on his fucking back. Okay, I have some. I like this question. I really do like this question. This is going to get us, you know, might get us to an hour. We have one more after this.

But, like, you know, we might not, you know, we're going to get through one of the week just to fuck with Howard. But I like this question. 2018 LeBron sticks out. I think LeBron is, like, all over this list because I'm just all I'm thinking about like is one man. All right. Well, hold on.

Stop for a second. But did they have to have won the championship, not just got to the finals? What was the emailer's question? I thought he said champion. I think he said won the championship. I think it's okay if we do a little bit of both. But we do distinguish. Like, there's a difference between making it to the finals and winning that title by.

yourself. But I think it's open to discuss. Well, I guess 2016 Braun is there. Can we say 2016 Brown? I know he had help with Kyrie. Can we not? Come on, bro. Kyrie had 40 points in the finals game. You can't. You can't.

Because he said finals, I mean, he said playoff run. So I'm like, you're saying individual playoff run. So I'm thinking about 18 LeBron. Then I'm thinking about 07, LeBron. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking, you know, so. If it's not championship required, then, yeah, those are two all

timers because of the rosters that he carried. How about 90? Owen Iverson? Yeah, yeah, that was a good. What about 93 Jordan? He was crazy. I don't like, see, that's the hardest part. Like, I don't know what you want me to do because here's the thing.

To win on a level like that, you need other players. I guess you have 11 Dirk. He did the thing where he asked the question and he gave us the two obvious answers. I don't know the other. What's the, who are the other guys that? It's like Jerry West 71. but he Jerry West 71, 72. I mean, yeah, well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's hard when you, like, when Howard puts the caveat, he has to win the championship. I didn't. That's tough. The emailer himself said it. Oh, okay. Our guy John Snow. I don't know.

We got to go to the, do we got to go to the W? Where to hell? Like, who balled out? Like, Maya Moore one year? I don't know. But she had fucking, she had sworn cast on a link. I don't know. I don't know.

It's stupid. I will, I will say this. It's only stupid because I don't have the answer. This is one that would actually require, like, Kerm would have needed to tell us this one, like, three days ago, not criticizing, just noting. Like, you've got to go into the archives. This is not a top off the top of your head kind of answer.

Also, there's like two elements there because he said one-man playoff run, but then it was also like one of the championship. And like there's. You know one really quickly? That's finally coming up to mine. Bill Walton, Bill Walton and the 70s on the, on the trailblazers. in terms of like how good he went i think he went through fucking kareem he went through a couple other guys that i forget the year but he was he was he was the truth that year but there's like

three different elements here like there's the the championship part of it so is it really about what you did as a one man wrecking crew in the finals or is it about the entire playoff run and how much of it is about who you went through because those are all different elements and like combining all of them you might you know or picking any one of those you might come up with different answers so that's why I'm saying. Like you, this is one where you almost, you just, you need some time to do a lot of homework on this one. So I don't have an easy answer. But I do think that in recent years, the last, you know, 20, 25 years, you know, Dirk and the 2011 Mavericks, like that one really stands out because you can look at Jason Kidd and say, oh, okay, Hall of Fame or one of the greatest

point cards of all time. But it was like Jason Kidd was already like 37, 38 years old or whatever. And who did he go through that year? And old Sean Marion and he went through, he went through. They went okay, see. Went through a. He went through Young Derange. The Lakers. Kobe. Kobe, pal. Then they played the Blazers. And Brandon Roy.

Put some fucking respect on Brandon Roy's name. And he. And LeBron. LeBron Wade Bosch. Like that one, that's really hard to beat. Like without having done the homework, I don't know what you're going to top that one. That's work like two or three titles, to be honest.

Like, when you think about how all those other guys blossomed as players. Yeah. Yeah. That's what, yeah. That's a good question. That's a good question. That's all I got.

What's the last one? Okay. Last question is from Nath. It's about free agency. He's from Australia, but y'all know I'm not good at this Australian accent. Come on, I'm not. You just got a channel crocodile Dundee. I'll try, man.

And I'm probably going to give up halfway through. Hey, people love your accents, though. People fuck with your accents, Kerm. This is what they come to see. They fast forward just to get to this. Jesus. All right. Oi, legends. Thinking of Clay, tell me honestly,

when has a free agency move truly gone well for any player? I'm talking about the real superstars. I really don't think many have. Thanks, Nath from Ocean Grove, Australia. So essentially he's asking, like, big free agents, like, I'm thinking, I don't know. LeBron said he did pretty well.

Yeah, it worked out. You know, it kind of worked out. Even going to Lakers, he won a title. I don't know. Kevin Durant going to the Warriors worked out pretty well. Kind of work out. Like, I guess some of these, like, flame out. But, like, there's plenty of situations where they win titles, right?

But I don't know. That was. We could use this to talk about any other thoughts. We could use to talk about just Clay's decision in general, just like, have like, a regroup off of that. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I thought it was just so short-sighted.

I thought it was very emotion-based. He did everything we fear he would. And I hope for Clay's sake that it works out. But like, they didn't even, like, for somebody that is of Clay's stature, the Mavs didn't even do oppressor specifically for Clay. You know, like, it's not going to be like, because he's used, and we both know this Howard. Like, the warriors are the cream of the crop in terms of culture.

And I'm not using that as an indictment against the Mavericks. But like, the warriors would have done a better job if Clay was a free agency signing of like, of welcoming him. And that's, it's just going to, it feels just like an odd fit. And I feel like everyone sees that. But Clay, even his old teammates are just like, you're not going to love it there, you know? Can we talk about the fact that, like, him plus Luca plus Kyrie is just food? Like, that's just, that's... In terms of defensively?

Perimeter. Oh, it's nasty. Yeah, defensively, they're not guarded. Nobody, man. Not a soul. That's food. And I thought it was a bad boo for that reason for the Mavericks. I thought it's similar to the way that the Kings got to Marta Rosie because he was just there, right?

Like, that it might not have been a great, it's probably not going to be a great fit. I just, at this stage of his career, and I think, honestly, at any stage of his stage of his career. If you're talking about Clay being the third, maybe the third best player on your championship team, you're not a championship team. And you could think the case, like, Lively's probably better than Clay, but I don't know how much of the offensive load that Lively is going to take on next year. I see this royally being royally bad for all parties involved. I can see that happening. You're a lot more down on it than I am. Yeah. Yeah. I think I am. Look, on the, I'm like a hopeless, nostalgic, sentimentalist type.

But so, so like I would have loved to see just because it's cool to see Clay Stay and Clay, Steph, Draymond, Steve Kerr all, you know, go out together. However, that may finish, right? It doesn't often happen that way in this league or in pro sports, period. Stuff gets in the way, money, egos, you know, other, other agendas, just other priorities. Like, it happens. So I think it's kind of a bummer in that regard. But as a basketball matter, you know, it's funny. In the story that you were referencing earlier that I wrote about second apron,

all the effects and all the movement and everything, I had made a reference at one point to the Warriors getting a little weaker through all this. And one of our editors said, are you sure you want to frame it this way? They picked up, you know, healed and Melton and whatever, Kyle Anders and all these guys. and it's like, my note back was it pains me to say this, but I'm going to concede the point.

I don't think I want to say definitively the Warriors got weaker because I'm not sure. I don't think they did, yeah. Yeah, like maybe it's a wash. Maybe they even got a little bit better because they got more depth in the rotation and more pieces to use. I love Clay Thompson's game,

and I love what he's been. I've loved talking to him over the years. He's incredible, and he's one of the greatest shooters we've ever seen. second only to Steph himself. And none of these guys are that. Buddy Hill's obviously a really good shooter, but he doesn't bring a lot of the other stuff that Clay does. But collectively sometimes,

and especially when a player is at the stage of his career that Clay is and has lost a few things along the way physically, athletically, because of the injuries, it's at some point, you're better off with depth and filling a bunch of different spots in the roster than that. So anyway, all that being the case, Like the Warriors might actually be functionally better off, if not necessarily spiritually, if I could put it that way. And the Mavericks, look, Luca and Kyrie are going to create all the space in the world for Clay to get off shots.

And he doesn't need that much space because his shots is so quick and so smooth. I think he's going to be good for them, Logan. Like, I get what you're saying. And, like, you know, you lose Derek Jones Jr. in the process. And you're losing some defense in the starting five. But I don't know. I think they find a way. And Clay, like, Clay's not the defender.

He was in 2016. but he's still going to like bust his ass doing what he can and you'll find ways to cross-match. Like they'll, I think they'll be all right. And I think the spacing that he gives them for Luke and Kyrie to operate and for them to keep the floor open. I think it's a good move. I think I think it's fine. I don't know that it's,

I don't think it's an out of the park home run, but like it's fine. It's a good move. For your sake, Howard, I really hope you don't end up on. This ends up on the worst takes. I really hope that this. Curb just made a note of it. Kerm just made a note of it. I just, I don't.

I completely disagree. All right. Wait. So is it going to just not get them what they wanted, what they're not going to get what they wanted out of this, The Mavericks, or are you saying this is actually going to backfire spectacular? Like, you think this is just a disaster?

Well, I think that, I mean, even the points that you've made of, like, he might not be, he's not the defender of yesteryear. Like, he would. wasn't the defender of yesterday to the point last year where they benched him where the warriors benched him for

Lee Santos, right? Like I was, it was like for Pajemski. I mean, come on. Ultimately. It was.

And there were all kinds of a lot that's going into the last. And that's saying a lot there, right? And now I'm going to suppose to, I'm going to have to see it. And I'm supposed to expect

that he's going to be, from what I've seen over the last two years, there's nothing that suggests that he is going to be the person in the role that the Bavricks need, right? And here's another thing. I hear all this stuff about like, oh, he's going to go into the Ray Allen role. Like, oh, he's going to be this guy. And I'm like, yo, y'all realize that Ray Allen, when he was on the Miami, he was a vet minimum guy. Like, he wasn't, it wasn't like he was some guy that was asked to carry a big load. Like, the money

that they're paying Clay Thompson. Like, he's going to be, he's going to be expected to do things. And I don't think that he is capable of doing the things that he's expected to do, right? Like, I've seen his mobility over the last couple of years. Even his shooting, like, his shooting is so streaky now. It's so, it's as tricky as it's ever been. And he's always been a streaky shooter. Like, you go and look at the numbers.

He started off, look at the ways he started off seasons. Think about the 18, 19. season and that was at like Clay Thompson's peak when I think he that early season is defined by the the game in Chicago where he had like 13 or

14 threes but before that he was shooting like in the sub 30s right and those ebbs and flows have only gotten like even more pronounced and so I think in the Mavericks

uniform it's in the way he's been playing, it's going to be even more pronounced than it already is. And I don't think that it's going to be a good look based on all the things, the maneuvering that the Maverings had to do to get him. I don't think that that's going to be what they think it's going to be based on what they paid him. And they lost a Derek Jones, who was a great guy. Like, they needed another ball handler. Clay ain't no ball handler. He's another shooter. They got a look good on Kyrie. They got all the ball handling, didn't he? But the other thing was in the finals, that was the big thing where when they were cold, when Kyrie and Luca were cold, they couldn't generate

offense anywhere else. So like, say, if they go back to the finals, they're not going to right back in the same position they were in the beginning. But I think that speaks to a more kind of, like, global issue with the Mavericks and their offense. It's like, are, will they at any point with Luca there because he is so ball dominant and enjoys being ball dominant? Will they ever find more of a middle ground where I'm not expecting them to turn into like, you know, the 2014 spurs or, the Warriors, for that matter, tomorrow. But can the Mavericks like to do a little bit more with their offense to just, because if they had a little bit more movement and unpredictability and off ball stuff,

and else, by the way, Clay's going to kind of want that too. And I'm not saying you cater to the guy who's coming in as your, your third, fourth, fifth best player, whatever, wherever Clay ends up in all that. But like, there are better ways, you know, good or better ways to use Clay than just having two other guys dominate the ball at the time. sitting there waiting for kickouts. But there's also ways to make life easier for Luke and Kyrie if they've got more movement. So if they ever do that, Logan, I think that addresses some of the concerns you're expressing

there because if more guys are touching the ball and there's more off ball movement, then it's not so much these guys having to grind out points in ISO. Are you saying you expect a sophisticated offense out of our guy, Jason, kid, on the fly that I'm saying I'm saying I think probably given truth serum, he would want something that's moving more in that direction. Again, not necessarily the 2014 spurs for the Warriors, but a little bit more movement so that it's a little less ball dominance and a little less predictability and a little less taxing on their two main guys. I'd tell you what, I know who's excited about this move, Kerm, because he doesn't have to watch Clay Thompson on the Lakers. He has enough problems and enough fish to fry right now. We don't even have enough time to do that.

Kerman, have the Lakers signed anybody yet? Wrap it up. Wrap it up. Wrap it up. Dev. Deb, lay back to your music. Get us out of here. Get us out of here.

All right. We're on a rig real quick. You have one, Howard? Did you ever hear one of the week? If my real one of the week were more of a concept, are you just going to kill me again? Sure. No, go do your thing. Do your thing, man.

Go fucking do your thing. It's not a person. It's, it is everybody. It's a bunch of people. It is everybody who has not fallen into the trap of deciding that we need to break down every last dribble, pass, shot, rebound, breathtaking by LeBron James Jr. We don't need to do this, people. It's okay.

Bronny James is the 55th pick of the draft. And if not for his name, is just the 50th pick of the draft. He's starting on Kerm's favorite team next year. He's going to start. We don't need fucking wall-to-wall analysis of Brunny's summer league play or any second rounder's play. Kermm, how are you doing with the first week of that? Are you okay? Are you still, are you turning your jersey?

For my sanity, I'm not watching them highlights. On Instagram the other day, I saw they were comparing, you know, different, you know, summer league performances and they show connects. Like, his highlights were a bunch of misses. And I'm like, okay, this is trolling. I'm just, I'm getting away from this. I'm not, I'm going to talk to y'all in October when we can, when we have full teams. I'm not doing this. I'm not doing it.

I'm not doing it. I'm sorry, Kurt. Anyway, that's it. I just, I appreciate anybody who's showing restraint on the Bronny James Jr. thing. Just let the kid evolve on his own time. I know we have to do this because of the name and the lineage and everything else. I get it, but we, but we don't have to. We really don't.

We can, we can just cover the rest of the rest of the. of the league and all the other players who have more on the line and are more accomplished and have more weight on them right now. They're like a thousand stories that are more important than what Brony James Jr. is doing in Summer League or, by the way, at all for his entire rookie season. And I know that saying just leave him alone and let's move on and cover other things is going to fall on deaf ears and I'm going to get scoffed at for, for a thousand different reasons, but I don't care. It's fine. I believe this, truly. We should just mostly cover him. If there's a feature story at some point, like how he's doing midway through

his rookie year and what it's been like to play with his dad and all that, like, that's cool. There's some cool human interest stuff there and even some basketball stuff in there. But that's a once or twice or three times a year story, not a day-to-day breathless coverage. It's unwarranted. It's stupid. It's pandering. And I wish we could collectively just shut it off. and treat him more or less like most other second round picks in the history of the NBA. Thank you. I'm done.

Wah, what, what! I now know that reference, by the way, Logan, you should be proud of it. It took you a long time.

Not just because you told me, but I've since listened and seen. So I think I'm up to speed. I'm not, actually, I shouldn't say that. I'm not up to speed. I still have no idea what's going on

in about 90% of that song, but it's okay. I'm, I'm with you. They played it last night. like three 13 year olds behind the fucking media media desk was like, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, dad, fuck him up. It was great.

It was awesome. All right. My real one of the week is a lot less serious, but it also is very serious. Shout out to my dogs, Pilo and Cool John for their album movie to The Equal. I went to the album movies party before I came to Vegas. And it was a time. Shout out to Calais Ballet. Shout out to all the homies.

shout out to my dog J Squared. Shout out to all the producers. Shout out to everybody that made that project great. It was awesome. Shout out to the Bay. You know how we do it. All the Bay propaganda.

And yeah, that has been another edition of ruins. We got Monica McNutt of next real quick housekeeping. We are going to have our season finale on July 25th. Howard, you need to be there. Raja, we're going to, he's going to fucking be there. I don't care how we've got to do it, but he's going to do it. And so make sure you guys do it. We don't know the format yet.

Probably just ask some questions to go down memory lane. So send just ruins mailbag at gmail.com, real onesmailag at gmail.com, real ones, melbourne at gmail.com. Tell us your favorite memories of the past four years. Let's reminisce.

Let's have a fucking party. You know, season finale. You know how we do. It's very special episodes. Ah, all the shits. Thank you, Devin. Thank you, Kerm. Thank you, Howard.

Somehow, thank you, Raja. Ah, all the shits. Wop, wah, wah, whack, whack, Kerm, fuck a boy. Bye. Okay, we are back with one of my faves. It's been a long time since she's been on ruins. Been way too long.

Monica McNett is here. How are you doing? I think that's the biggest thing that I would like to ask you, that I've been meaning to ask you since, you know, the thing happened. How you doing? First of all, so happy to be back with you, Logan. Yay! I am well.

I have, the word that comes to mind over the last month and a half or so is eye-opening. But I do feel a renewed sense of energy and that the conversation is finally shifting to the basketball of it all. Right? And I think for me, I'm now talking to the people

that can respect all the players. You know what I mean? Because if you're in an extreme camp for any player, I don't have the energy to pull you back because me being able to respect another player is not an affront to the player that you support most. So all in all, I'm excited.

The energy this year is fantastic. The rookies, obviously, the rookie in the year race, Kailen Clark, Angel Reese, fantastic. But the vets, a la Asia Wilson, doing the damn thing. Like, it's good. I'm really excited for where women's basketball is. And I think it culminating with WBA All-Star versus Team USA, say, like, what a perfect year.

Like, the script writers are scripting right now. We obviously saw this coming, you know, this kind of crescendo of interest coming over the last couple of years. And I think people, a lot of people pointed to this year being the year that the W kind of explodes on a national stage. And we'll get into the specifics of how it's done that and the ups and downs of it exploding on a national stage, you know, you included. But if I were to tell you that it was going to be like this with, you know, Angel

Reese Ball and Caitlin Clark ball and the ratings are going up. But also the downside of, you know, the, how polarizing it has been. Would you think it would have been

how it is currently on July 8th to 2024, if I were to tell you, was going, all of these things were going to come together. Was this kind of what you expected? Or what did you think that it was going to be different when, you know, last year sometime when you knew that Caitlin was going to come

onto the scene and when you knew Angel Reese was going to come onto the scene. And you knew how polarizing was it going to be. If I were to tell you it was going to be like this, how would you have reacted to that? That's a great question, Logan. I think, hmm, 20, what are we, 2024? So first final four, Iowa, LSU was 2022, I think.

Dallas. If you told me it was going to be like this, I'd be like, no, not women's basketball. prior to the national championship game. After the national championship game, if you had told me get ready, and I'm like, ooh, yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

I can see that. But I will say, even with that in mind, and coming through this in the college ranks and seeing different fan bases clash and the way the conversation took, we're just going to call it unfortunate turns. Even I have been disappointed it with the nastiness that is emerged this year.

Because it, and this is kind of what I've been trying to put words to in this last month and I have. Okay, put it this way. Yukon fans been in my mentors for forever, right? Like, they're like, you're biased. You don't love Yukon, right? But I never felt as a racist. Like, it's just a different level of like, you know what I mean?

And so I think Caitlin is amazing and of herself. She's an incredible basketball player. I think she's very savvy. I think I can say that she's great and I can say that there are 143 women

that helped get the league to this place that she could take it over the top and it's okay. Like, that's not an affront to anybody. I'm not mad that she's white. Like, I'm not mad at any part of who she is. But I think the response of folks that don't think she is praised enough

and she is above reproach or approach in terms of criticism, or that praising another player isn't affront to her is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, bro. Also, like, you're in my mentions talking about women's basketball. I've never ever seen you before my life.

Like, you're here to talk about race, but I'm the racist. Like, what are you doing? So it's, I'm just glad that it's shifting to more of the basketball of it all. Yeah, it's, well, you know, we talk about,

it's like you can't escape the Caitlin Clark discourse this season, right? And a lot of it is because of new people are coming into the game. But it's, I can imagine that it is annoying, you know, as someone that has been both played at the college level and then also is now covering it to, and not only just you, but, you know, players around the league seeing the discourse positioned as Caitlin Clark saved the game, right? where, or it's Caitlin Clark in the WMBA, like it's Diana Ross and the Supremes or something like that, right? Where for years, the W has talked about, you know, we do want to grow, we will do want to expand, we want to do all these things.

But it was funny because I was talking to Sue Byrd, she was on the show a few months back around the Final Four and talking about how this is one of those things where, you know, when you do get more coverage, this is what's going to come. And I feel like there is a, you know, with the influx of people, there is people that are new to the sport. And there's a gift in the course of that you do want more people, but then you're having a lot of people that are not educated on the sport. And then there's a balance that you have to have.

How do you think that the new consumer has even told that line with how, you know, they kind of accept this W sport as something that they watch on a daily basis? Listen, Logan, that line ain't been told. It's been stepped on, danced on, pulled up off the pavement. Like, ain't nobody respecting that line at all. I shouldn't say nobody. But I think, to Sue's point, when you become a part of a larger discourse, you got to keep in mind the intentions of said outlets. They're just capitalizing on the moment.

And you can capitalize on the moment and formulate an opinion watching a 10-minute clip without knowing any of the history of the league. And that's just the way it goes, right? Now, I appreciate the platforms that are. mindful to bring in guests that have been in it to have a more thoughtful conversation. But, and like I said, mention it's been crazy, whatever. But one comment made me laugh, but also I was kind of like, all right. It's like, so I got to have a vagina to be able to talk about women's basketball.

And it like made me laugh because like, obviously I'm a woman that talks about men's basketball. But as I continue to say, it's hard and probably unfair to ask us. to separate our existences from our experiences for the sake of a conversation. And so, no, I don't need you to have a vagina to talk about women's basketball, but I do need you to realize that you're talking about women. You're talking about a lot of black women.

You're talking about a lot of queer women. You're talking about a white woman. And just how all of these things come into play in a conversation and just have the capacity to hear it. Now, disagree or agree as you please, but to act like the early conversations this season were strictly about basketball and there was no room for all of the many

intersectional identities that make us who we are and to act like the conversation of women alone in our country already is not like a high button issue in terms of what are and are not their rights. Like, what America are you living in? I'm not telling you you got to jump in two feet deep to all of the extra stuff, but come on y'all. Like we all live here.

We all see it. What's it been like for you to see males talk about the game, specifically this season? Some of your colleagues, some are from other networks, not even try to do that tightrope, but there's been sub-discourses, it's been just even disrespectful, just outright disrespectful to just uneducated. What's it like for you to have been, you know, a face in this space to see that and hear those things, has it, what has it done to you? How do you, how have you felt just about the discourse, you know, from your male colleagues over the last two or three months? The initial wave, Logan, to me, the most disappointing fact from men that have made their careers either competing at a high

level or covering athletes that compete at a high level is taking the competition away from women. That was the part that frustrated me to no end. Because what are we doing, y'all? We're talking about sport. Like, again, I have room for all the other extra conversations, the side dishes that may come out of this conversation, but at a base level, now you're telling me not to compete? That is sport. Like, what are we talking about? You know what I mean? And it's disrespectful on both sides of the coin. If you believe that the asset needs to be protected and saved, the asset didn't ask you to do that? The league is a competitor.

So what are we, like on a base level, you mean to tell me that y'all have watched men compete or you've competed at a high level, and now we're acting as if competition should not still be the bedrock of this thing? And then on top of that, we're going to act like competition doesn't include human emotions and make all of these things a bad thing? Like, when does sports become kumbaya?

Men or win? Like, what are we doing? You've referenced even in the beginning of this interview just what the last month and a half and the last month and a half. What is the thing that we're alluding to is what happened on the segment on first take. How was your life changed since then? What has this life? What has this last month and a month and a half been like for you? Because I mean, just even from a distance of seeing like, oh, Monica's in all the algorithms right now.

You know, she's on the daily show. She's on the breakfast club. She's here. She's there. She's everywhere. Right? What has that been? Because it seems like you're in the eye of the storm right now over the last month and a half. What's that been like for you personally? How has your life changed over these last few weeks? I mean, candidly, I'm not mad at the timing. You and I are both professionals in this industry and TikTok says the clock. So that worked out. My first instinct, Logan, is going viral is very annoying. I just wanted my phone and stopped ringing. It was funny because my PR is hitting me, you know, as things are evolving and people are reaching out. And I'm like, B, like, it's, we're also covering the finals as this is happening.

And I'm like, finals is, is grueling enough. Like, we're not doing no media. She calls and she's like, but the Daily Show called. I'm like, we can figure that one out. Um, it has been eye opening. I go back to that word. We can't separate our existence and our experience, right? And so I'm thankful.

that the WMBA has been in my heart and soul since 96 when it launched, or 97, rather, when it launched. Like, early years, Washington Mystics in the house when those arenas were packed when it was MCI Center before it was Capital One in D.C. Houston Comments, like, love those jerseys. The fact that Cheryl Swoops will text me now still blows my mind, like, that's my girl. And so I'm thankful for the institutional knowledge, both knowing the league, having played basketball, and had the opportunity to cover the league at a high level the last five years. So when people hit me and are like, thank you, not in a way of like, you won that debate or whatever, because I don't really care about that.

It's a debate show we debated, whatever. But when the people are like, thank you for being a voice for all of us, like, I feel that and I receive that. Now, flip side of that coin, Logan, my mentions, I don't, I don't know who these people are. I didn't bring up race at all. Like, you, you know what I mean? You become a champion on one end and you become a target on the other, right? Now, fortunately, I'm very good about protecting my little bubble, my peace, my space. But it has shifted, right?

Like, I remember early at ESPN or early when I started doing first take, I think the year of the Warriors actually won. JJ Redick, Molly Cameron and I first take, I just got all carried away. Championship window is closed. Of course they go on and win the championship. But I thought my mentions went crazy after that, courtesy of Warriors fans. The way I can't say nothing right now without my mentions going nuts. Yeah.

It's like, who, okay. And again, like, if it was like, terrible take, we disagree. Fine. But it's like, terrible take, you racist? Huh? What? Okay. Whatever you say?

So, whatever. Take me through the day it happened. What was it when you make the point that you make with Stephen A and honestly, like, it's funny because you're literally standing in the background that you're, you know, doing this. You're working for. You say one thing, you say one thing that is into a webcam. And then just seems like, you know, I don't know the specifics of it, but it seems from the outside looking in that your life is changing in real time. Like you literally see that happening.

Take me through the day that it happened in the immediate hours after. What's going on from the show to that night? So I think we got to go actually before that because it's a Monday morning. Of course, you've seen the play Sunday night. It was funny because my fiance and I went to a Liberty game. We're on a train coming home Sunday night. And it's like two white boys probably in their mid-20s. Their girlfriend was with them.

A really tall black lady who I could tell as a Liberty season ticket holder like superfan gets on the train. And they end up having this dialogue about women's basketball. And they're talking about the play with Kennedy. And they're talking about Kaelin and they're talking about Angel. And I said to my fiance, I was like, this is cool. Like two years ago, I don't know that I would look down the train and expected that group to be having this conversation, right? So going on my business Sunday night, Monday morning, I was not scheduled for first take.

Get the text on the producers like, hey, can you jump on? We want to talk about this Caitlin Clark Kennedy Carter thing. And I'm like, literally, Lo, I was like, we're going to talk about a foul on a Monday morning. Like, are y'all serious right now? And they're like, ah, like, we got to address it, whatever, whatever. And I'm like, whatever. Like, whatever. I'm not coming into studio.

I'm doing it from home. And I literally was like, I'm not putting on makeup. Like, this is stupid. It's going to be 10 minutes, whatever. We're going to move on. And I was like, let me just do something to my face just in case. Like, the nature of Caitlin Clark stuff seems to go viral. So I'm sitting here.

We get into the show. Mad respect for Shannon, mad respect for Stephen A. I don't even know where we started. But I feel like my whole thing was like, y'all, we're talking about a foul in sports. Like, what are we talking about?

I don't remember what happened Logan, but I remember sitting here looking at the clock and it said 10, 30, And I was like, wow, we haven't taken a commercial. Like, they letting us rock. Again, I don't remember exactly what I said. But then as this thing keeps going, I remember feeling like, so first take is the authority on women's basketball?

Is that what we're doing right now? As if I haven't been around the last three years? So by the end of the show, that moment, I've never met respectfully more in my life. Because I have a ton of respect for the platform. I have a ton of respect for what those men have built. But like, huh? For you guys to be talking to me, as if I don't know,

women's basketball needed to be a topic on this show more than it has been. And so I very respectfully meant that. And like, I thought in that moment there was enough depth to the relationships just to challenge something that, Logan, I thought was pure fact. Like the layup answer was, but we're here now. I didn't really think there was any room to debate it. So I get off and my former coach, first of all,

it's the first time I get off of a TV segment and I'm actually shaking, right? Because it's just, it becomes that emotional. Not in a fearful or upset way, but it was emotional. And so I get off and my assistant coach who's still a really good friend to this day, he's texting me and he's like,

you ate that up. And then he's sending me tweets of like people's research, reactions. Isn't that the worst, though? Because you're not trying to see that. Like, you're not trying to see the reactions. Then you're going to be on Twitter the whole day. Like, right? So actually, it was the opposite for me because I was like, oh, because Logan, I did not think I said anything earth shattering in the moment. Right. Right. You know what I mean? And I'm thinking, this is my guy who loves me. Like, he's coached me through basketball. Like, he just opened me up. This is my guy. Like, whatever.

It's been plenty of times that people that I have real relationship have been like, that was great. And nobody cares on the internet, right? But I think it was when he sent the shade room that I was like, oh, okay, this is a thing. Then I started getting, you know, text and calls and people calling the check. And the Monday of the show, I was like, it's a debate show. We debated. That's all I got. Some of the subsequent follow-up I could have done without.

I really appreciated Shannon Sharp and Chad inviting me on Nightcap to discuss it. And again, like, I'm not coming at this from a context. contentious place. And if you disagree with me, that's fine. But I just, I just want to give you a little bit of context, right? That's what I'm trying to do is add a little bit of levity, add a little bit of context. You can disagree. That's totally your prerogative, if you so desire. But yeah, I think I will be honest, Logan, as we move forward, I'm hoping that the conversation continues to move forward and is less about that particular exchange. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was definitely, it's cool.

It seemed like it was a shift in just how, you know, people, you know, saw the show and also, you know, saw you. And anytime you do anything back and forth with Stephen A, it's going to be something. What is that, what was that dynamic like, right? Because, you know, you and Stephen A are, you know, cool. And you guys are co-workers. And it is a debate show, which I feel like on, you know, to the outside looking in, it's like, oh, they got beef. Oh, they have this. they have these things. What is, what was the immediate outcry of your relationship with him after

that, right? Because again, he's somebody that has, you know, brought you on the show that has, um, you know, opened this lane in general. What was that like afterwards? Because it seemed like he was really, um, he was really taken aback by what you said. Not only during the show, but even in the aftermath, you know, you, he had you on his, he talked, he had a whole segment on his podcast about you. What was that like after the show ended with the dynamic between you and him? We talked on the phone that day, and it was fine. I think, like I said, to me, the depth that I believed was there allowed me to respectfully challenge. And as I explained to him, and I think Andrea doubled down in an appearance on the show later on is like, we all have a ton of respect for

you in our minds, whether this is true or not, if you say, let's talk about women's basketball three years ago, we're talking about women's basketball three years ago, right? Now, I've been doing TV long enough to know that it happens to be a combination of things happening this year in terms of the audience demanding, cool, but I also have that much respect for you and what you say and the impact that you have at our company, right? And so whether that comment is to, Stephen A as the face of the company, to any of my bosses at the company, is to ESPN and of itself, like, the data's out there.

It's like 2% of our airtime has gone to women's sports. And yes, ESPN is the worldwide leader and probably covers, and not probably, and does cover women sports more than most, but you also have the most bandwidth, right? And so I literally, for me, it wasn't in a saw. It was, we all on the same team,

and as teammates, we can hold one another accountable and be honest. I'm not a fan of the podcast response, but he's entitled. And I think for me, I didn't need to say anything. You know what I mean? And to essay's credit, he's a machine, he's moved on, we saw each other in Boston, I've been on the show since, like, it's all good. But I think, again, we can't separate our existence and our experience.

I think that moment resonates for a number of reasons that don't have as much to do with me. you know what I mean like and maybe it does because there's a woman sitting between two powerful men trying to hold her own there's a woman who doesn't necessarily have the platform to these men who are seen as the authority on all things sports like there's all these dynamics that created this moment that resonated um and truly Logan like like I said the entire thing for me was done respectfully

and I think when you have a platform not big, all you could do is go into it with respect, even when you disagree, and let the chips fall where they may. I want to talk about the perception of the WMBA at this point. You know, I think WMBA is in this 27th year. And, you know, I juxtaposed that with the NBA and the girls of the NBA. Around the time the NBA was approaching around its 30th year, you know, their finals were on tape delay.

and you just expose that what the W is right now and how it's growing. And you would think that, I think if you listen to some people, you will think that it might be a dying league, which it's not, obviously, it's flourishing. But do you think there's a difference

between the perception of the growth of the WMBA and the actual reality of how the WMBA is actually growing in real time relative to its counterparts? Because I feel like it is, In 27 years, if you were to put that in for a league, you would be pretty happy with how it's going. Do you think there is a difference of perception of how the league is growing versus what is actually the reality of it?

I don't know. I think I'm a little too close because the perception, I'd have to have a little bit more conversation with mainstream audiences, right? Because all of us that love women's basketball have been here, and it seems to be growing. and the numbers bear out that is growing. So I don't know.

That's a good question. I think, and again, I acknowledge that I'm close. I'm very close. I'm in it. And while Caitlin and the conversation has been a force multiplier, I'm still a little unsure if all of the energy and the numbers that we're seeing this year are sustainable for one. and two are actually about the basketball.

Or is it all of the side dishes like we talked about earlier that have allowed people to shoehorn themselves into a conversation even though the basketball is not their primary thing? I think having been in it, it's fantastic. There are more games nationally available than I can think of ever, maybe in the formative years, but that was still mostly ABC and ESPN, if I remember correctly. but the engagement, the visibility, all of that is up.

But again, like for women's basketball fans, they have been accustomed to engaging with their athletes on social, to going and following their platforms, because it has not been as readily available. So if I am to judge the perception by how many national games there are, in terms of at least programmers and industry folks, saying, hey, we need to get into this, then I think the league is in a really good place.

I have questions about the sustainability. I think and when you look at players being lightning rods, Caitlin Clark, injuries, camera brink. Up next is Juju Watkins, which is a whole other social experiment as you watch that unfold. So I'm excited, I think, and I'm fortunate to have been a part of it,

but like a WMBA combo on the Daily Show, I remember when Neku K did the Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Sydney Colson, did appearance on the Daily Show as well. and I don't know if I'm missing anybody, but like the W conversation hitting those mainstream platforms as indicators,

I think we're moving in the right direction. I hope the perception is matching the reality. How do you think the, you played at Georgetown in 2010, I believe around in the 2011. Graduated in 2011. Let's get it. What is the difference in how young girls look at the W

then when you were coming into college versus now, where there's so much more money involved in there, right? There's so much more, it seems like there's so much more, there's so many more eyeballs. And, you know, I was talking to, I'm talking to Sue a couple months ago, you know, with the money coming in,

it's deterring, right, in a good way, women from going overseas, right? And which means a better product, right? Because they do have a full off season to actually work out instead of having to play another full season. What do you think is the difference between how, prospects look at the W back when you were playing versus now? One, I think the marketability is at an all-time high.

And there's various documentaries on this, and I can't wait to watch, finally have some time to watch the Atlanta Dream documentary that's out on Amazon Prime. I think the marketability is at an all-time high. But two, Logan, so is NIL. So are these women now able to build these brands that hopefully translate. Like, I remember the conversation about both Angel and Caitlin, right? Like, they have these huge brands, but are they going to hit this curve in the W? Both of them have exceeded expectations.

And I look at their conditioning, their basketball IQ. They obviously do it in very different ways, but that has translated. And so now, I think if you're a young person watching, there's a little bit more visible gratification in this era because the WMBA typically was a league that was driven by its veterans. And still, as Asia Wilson and the Aces or Brandon Stewart and Liberty, like, pick your poison in terms of best teams in the league. Alyssa Thomas and the Connecticut Sun, if Nefisa Collier's foot injury is not anything too serious. Like, these are still veterans leading the best teams in the league. But if you're a young person, you now see a rookie class that is having the chance to make real impact.

And not just the two top rookies in terms of the conversation of rookie year, but you can go down the line and see players getting valuable minutes. I just watched J.C. Sheldon play big-time minutes for the Dallas Wings the other night. Rakea Jackson's playing big time and it's for the Los Angeles Spirx, obviously after Cameron's injury. But I think for young girls watching, the frenzy around Caitlin, Angel, Cameron,

even some of the players that maybe are not as mainstream, as a young girl, you latch onto a player and that inspires you. I did it. Cynthia Cooper was my player, right? And so because of the mainstream access, because of the marketability, because seeing your favorite players in commercials, you're really seeing if I can see her and I can be her,

and you have never seen her more than you are right now. And so when I see the girls in frenzies to get autographs from Caitlin or Angel or screaming and squealing, like it's so dope and it warms my heart. Now, get in the gym and work on your moves like your favorite players, which I think is not just a girl issue because I've heard coaches across the board talk about this generation not necessarily consuming the game and studying the game at a high level. And so that's another

box to open up in the stuff. That's a critique for men and women too, right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Raja always rails against how players young crossbecks don't look at anything with TikTok clips when they're working on their game.

Yeah, that or like their favorite players, highlights or workout videos. And I think, don't get me wrong, you could pick up a move on highlights. But I think the basketball, like, can you got to watch how basketball games unfold to see the adjustments and the reads And sometimes the plays that your favorite players are making that are not considered highlights, but they are the right plays.

One of the other thing that I'm thinking about as you talk about that is just obviously, you know, we're starting to, the W is starting to, not starting to, but are building stars at a bigger level. And I'm thinking about, you know, the media apparatus that is, you know, needed to continue to push these women. you're starting to see things pop up like together and, you know, a touch more and all of these different places. What's a utopia media environment in your eyes for women's sports? And how do you want to see that, say, in 10 years? I love the utopian word. I think it is true water cooler conversation. The same way Monday morning out the office, and of course,

I talk about this very like archaically because I don't actually work in office in a traditional sense. But anyway, the same, like, I don't know, Slack chats, right? Did you see XYZ game over the weekend or you saw what whoever did? Like, I just want women's sports to be organically part of that fabric. And it's a be X-Team stinks right now because X-Team is playing great basketball because, and not out of this other like side shit that we were talking about to start this season.

Yeah. That's what I envisioned, right? Like, I envision, and this is funny, this is why I can see Steve Smith. I was like, I see his face. I couldn't call his name. This is why Steve Smith is one of my favorite, and I think it's really cool. And the first time we had a chance to work together. I told him this.

But it's always been like a thing, and I'm a woman that covers men's sports, so I get it. But it's been like a thing to be like, I cover women sports. Now I'm graduating to men sports. Yay. Like, I'm very thankful what I do. Shout out to the Knicks, like, right? but you don't often see that in the reverse in a sincere way.

And so I can remember years ago, Steve Smith sitting on the desk, I can't remember who was hosting. But I think he was sitting next to Renee Montgomery, maybe, of a WMBA halftime. And like, really talking WMBA basketball because he grew up and knew all those great women that went and played at USC.

The McGee's sisters, like, has a relationship with Cheryl Miller. And so he knew women's basketball because those were her friends, friends that he rooted for and followed. And I was like, well, like, Steve Smith, NBA player who talks NBA is talking women's basketball for real. And so I think in that utopian sense, like all of us being able to do our research, because I think that's important, and talk about the sports that we cover and admire.

And just because you do your research doesn't mean you don't have a bad take. So I'm not saying you can't have a bad take, but like do it out from a lens of respect. Yeah, I think you're from like a shift from where I'm. It, like, I just wish there's just more nuanced criticism of the W. You know, I just feel like, like, whenever I feel like there's criticism of the W, it's a microcosm of other things that are maybe a bias that somebody has or, you know, a racial undertone or a sexist undertone, right? Like, it's not just like, oh, that shot was just trash, you know?

It's never that. Like, she can't shoot or her on and off splits are not great. It's always something that's the overarching theme of somebody's biases or takes. There's part of me that wishes that was, you know, I wish we can, I hope we can get to a point where we can have a nuanced criticism or criticism like, quite frankly, how we do the dudes, you know? Yeah, I'm with you. And I think we are ways away from that happening on mainstream platforms. But a little plug here, WMVA countdown with a rotating cast of myself, the China Robertson, Chenet, Goumukee, L. Duncan, Andrea Carter, and Carolyn Peck, we do that. You know what I mean? But that is our 30-minute

show, and it's not even every show. I mean, every game, but like, that's, we don't have a consistent place with that. We do a pre-game on, usually ABC games and ESPN games, some ESPN games, but to your point, like, that's not a mainstream daily sports show spot. But I'm with you. Because to me, and this is where we go back to what we talked about earlier, that frustrated me the most, that is part of being an athlete. Because even athletes are going to go watch their tape. They're going to look at their splits. They're going to find statistically their best spots on the floor.

That is part of the way that we consume sport. And even talking men's sports sometimes, folks get a little out of pocket and forget to respect. But I think if you can cover any sport respectfully with intention and with data, then cool. Let it rock. Okay. Let's talk about some fun stuff. Let's do it. I, there's a little segment I like to call real or fake.

And we'll give you some teams and some players that you might, that you can go, real or fake? So Seattle Storm, real or fake at this juncture of the season. When I say real, like a real contender, like you can legitimately see them as a team deep in the playoffs and maybe be like a backdoor final contender. Okay, I have to go fake on this one, but hear me out. Personal philosophy, it doesn't work in year one.

It just doesn't work in year one. It takes time to cook. It takes time to marinate. Scholar Dickett Smith, Nekka Gumma K, huge additions. Definitely think that they are in position to be contenders. I think Ezzi Magibor is great. Does not get enough props in this league. Year one?

Not quite. Not this year. I could be completely wrong. I don't think so. But I just personal philosophy, we've seen it time and time again, it doesn't work in year one. Especially, I think the odds decrease for it to work in year one when you add two stars as opposed to one.

So I think they're on the right track. I just don't know that the requisite scar tissue has been built yet with that group. It's interesting you say that because immediately when you talk about that, I'm thinking about last year's Liberty team who had all of the talent. Probably, I think, a bit more talent with Sabrina Inescu and Brianna Stewart, just considering just those names in general. And I suppose that with what's on Seattle. But let's go right in too.

I'll use that to go into the Liberty because I do want to talk about the Liberty in terms of their final chances. Obviously, they're real. They're on a collision course at this point. But how good are their chances if they face, because I was watching you on Get Up the other day talking about they're basically on a collision course with the Vegas Aces. and I agree with you on that. But how real are there chances against the Las Vegas Aces if they are to meet again in the finals? So I had an Aces game yesterday.

I was in Vegas for Aces versus Wings. Asia Wilson becomes a franchise leading score. Pre-game, rapping with the coaches, Becky Hammond. Are you guys fighting entitlement? Absolutely. This is from her. There's still a little bit of a sentiment that we can turn it on and off.

They just lost to the sparks. They lost to the sparks twice this season. One time without Chelsea Gray, one time with Chelsea Gray. If the sparks played the aces every game, they would be right in the mix for contention somehow. 100%, right? And so, but I think, again, winning is hard.

Yeah. And I think if you talk to any champion, the year you run it back is harder. So I imagine, any, especially any team that's done in back to back, right? So I imagine. And they're going for a 3P, right? Like, I was around, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was around the Warriors, you know, for their 3P in 19.

It was just so hard to, to get them up every game because of that reason, right? So even their second title, it was really hard for them to get up on a night-to-night basis just because it's tiring. So tiring. It's hard. It's hard, right? And so all of that in mind, what I do think is unique about the Aces and maybe there will be documentaries years later, there is a camaraderie there that is also championship level and should not be taken for granted. Like, you know, I'm sure you're around the Warriors. Everything wasn't always peaches and cream, right?

Like there are some teams that. Or often than that it was not peaches and cream, Monica. There are some teams that managed to win in Spaces. of that because people come in and do their jobs, right? Sure. But I think a big piece of the warrior's success has been the camaraderie. Yeah. Circling back to your question about the libs, if I went toe-for-toe talent-wise,

match-up for match-up, this is a clash of the Titans on paper. But if I had to go to the non-tangible, intangible things and say who has the stronger camaraderie, I don't know that I can give that to the liberty. And that's my hang up. When it gets tough, and not that the Aces, they've already lost seven games a season, it's more than they lost last year at six, right? Like, not that they're going to go unblemished, but if you get both of these teams to the finals and the rubber hits the road,

and it gets real tight and you've got to lean on the stuff that has nothing to do with basketball, there just seems to be more depth from the Aces. Yeah. And also the fact that Chelsea Gray is healthy and playing, and they're right back to where they looked just like the aces of last year. She literally said to us the other day, too. I'm like, Chelsea, you've been doing TV with the Kings. I'm asking us.

Should we be concerned about your record sitting in the fifth spot? She's like, it's July. You want to be playing your best basketball in September and October? I'm like, fair enough. I've told this story a lot on this real ones. I've told it to Chelsea's face. I remember the first time I ever saw Chelsea play. It was in a, it was in Stockton, California.

at St. Mary's of Stockton. She was playing against my Berkeley high yellow jackets. And she got a tip off. She got the tip off. She was a point guard. We was all like, man, this girl from Duke, she ain't really that raw. She's not really that raw.

Whatever. And so she gets the ball from the tip off, takes one dribble inside a half court, hits a three. I'm like, oh, whatever. That was luck. And then she gets a steal the next play. It goes to the same spots and hits a three.

And I was like, oh, she's the coldest I've ever seen. She's going to Duke. Did you guys know that she was going to do? She's cold. So, yes, I'm never paid to get healthy great. But last thing, I'll ask this on the real or fake. And this is, I know the answer to this question, but I just want to talk about this player.

How real are, how real is Angel Reese's Rookie of the Year chances at this point? We all know the answer to this, but I do want to talk about just our season. Coming into this season, I was really skeptical about her just from an offensive standpoint, right? Like I knew she could board. I knew she could score in the paint. But every time I saw a jumper, I was really happy for the other team

because it seemed like they were going to, it was just coming right off the glass. They were going to be able to go in and get a fast break. But she's played so well with the double, double streak. How do you see her game blossoming? And it's July now, it's still a long season for the rest of the way, but how real are her rookie of the year chances? And what have you thought about her play?

So I think the thing that's going to douse her rookie of the year chances is I actually think the fever are going to be comfortably in the playoffs. Which to me, and I said this before both of them even got to the league, I want to know how you can impact winning. Because we could make an argument, and I have made the argument, depending on who was sitting in the eight spot in the standings, that she is impacting the game as much, if not more, with less around her. And if you value defense, she got numbers that Kayla can't touch.

Now, if you value offense, well, obviously Caitlin is blowing it away, right? If the fever and the Chicago sky are fighting for that eighth spot, I think she's got a very real chance, because I think a lot of people will look and acknowledge just that, right? I know Vegas has Caitlin running away with it, but there's more than one way to add value in the game of basketball.

As I'm watching Indiana, though, they are getting better game in and game out. Like, we looked at their schedule when they played Chicago in Chicago and the next five games to the All-Star break, and they got two of the better teams, they got wins versus two of the better teams

since then, Phoenix and New York. So I think that they are trending toward legitimately being in the postseason, which to me, you have to look and then say how Kaelin Clark has been able to impact winning. It seems like Kailen is getting better as a season is going on. And also, I think one of the things that we don't necessarily talk about, and it's wild to me, like the turnaround that women have to have going in from college to NBA is crazy, especially if you have a deep run in March Madness.

and it seemed like she's getting her sea legs under her just from a basketball standpoint. And I'm curious to see how that translates down to stress for Caitlin. And so the best thing that's going to happen for both of them and their teams, really, is the Olympic break. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know, and I should know this, so forgive me.

But Elizabeth Williams, that injury really hurt what Chicago was doing. Like, she's a vet in this league, been on really good teams. I don't know if she's coming back after the Olympic break. But when I look at Indiana, they're going to have a month off. There's no reason, and I'm sure plenty of teams will do this. Take two weeks, Kayling, because you, like you said, you've been playing basketball for it since October,

but then also spend some time in the gym. And as that camaraderie continues to grow, Indiana, to me, is going to have a real chance to be in the postseason. Now, I don't know if I necessarily buy them causing any real damage beyond that. But I got a shout out Erica Wheeler. I saw her in Indiana when the Knicks were in that Pacers series.

and she's like, mom, we're going to be better to people think. And I'm like, all right, we're going to have to see. And at the beginning of the season

it was like, ah, but now they're starting to put it together. So the other thing, too, just as we talk about, just been able to talk about the basketball of it all,

if you are players that cut and don't rely on ISO, it's terrible when you first get together because you're cutting in each other's way, like you're just, it's just all over the place. So literally, that takes time, right?

New point guard takes time slash new point guard and rookie, it takes time. And so Indiana is starting to wear into form, and I think they might create some real distance between Chicago, which obviously will impact the rookie of the year race, as it should. Where are you on the argument of staying at home market during the Olympic break or going back to your crib?

Like, where are you? Because I saw this, this is a debate out here that, um, both. I want both. Okay. I want both. Because I say this at myself and I will apply it to these athletes as well. you're building a life and not just a career. So if you need to step off from the muffos that have been on your last nerve

or the mokos that you love and y'all been winning, do that. Because you're going to be better for me when you get a break from me and have a chance to come back. So give me both. You got a whole month, bro. Like, you got a month. And if y'all really want to be cute, go pick a cute place to go work out together and live in villas or rooms on each side of the resort and, like, don't see each other. Whatever y'all need to be great, that's what y'all should do.

Some teams might need to stay together. Some teams might need to get to the opposite sides of the state, of the country. Hey, man, if I know anything about Caitlin Clark, she's going to blow the bag. So, like, yeah, blow the bag on like a villain, like the Bahamas or some shit. You know what I mean? Go get it done. What's next for you, Monica? What are we expecting from you?

What's the next few months look like for you? I've got, what's the day, recording spot on Monday the 8th. I've got two W games more to go before All-Star break. Will not be an All-Star break. We've got friends getting married in Cabo. And then I, too, will go dark with the Olympic break and be getting married in August. So those are my highlights. Hey, well, it's always a treat when players meet.

It's been a great time to see you, Van. We'll have you on very soon. Thanks so much. Monica McNutt, the God. Oh, my gosh. Thanks, Logan. This was a good conversation. I appreciate you.