The Ringer NBA Show - Teams Surging and Slumping into the New Year | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos kick off the new year by discussing five NBA teams who are starting 2023 either surging or slumping. They discuss the Nets’ surge as one of top teams in the East (02:46), whether the Sixers’ recent success makes them legit title contenders (14:28), and how Luka Doncic's dominance is carrying the Mavs (26:44). Later, they look at the struggles of the Timberwolves (34:31) and Suns (48:21). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, this is Rob Harvilla from 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, the world's greatest loopy and perverse and inaccurately named music nostalgia podcast. We're doing 90 songs now because there's too many songs. Pearl Jam, J-Z, Jewel, YouTube, Cher, Hootie. These are just some of the names people yell at me on the internet because we're back. More great songs, more rad special guests, more loopy perversity. Join us once more on 60 Songs That Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify. Hello and welcome back to group chat.

I am Justin Verrier, joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney, Big Waz. Gentlemen, did any of you score 40 to 70 points over the past week since I've seen you? I got to think about it because it seems like everyone's doing it pretty casual, you know? I would think we could do it if we tried. I scored the equivalent of a 70-point game on the grill on Sunday. Yeah, I made incredible points. burgers, dogs, hot links. It was an easy score because the dogs and the hotlings come preseason, but my season on the

burgers was just incredible. Yeah, that was a Donovan Mitchell, worthy performance, fed five other human adults. I'm proud of myself, y'all. What's the char situation on these dogs and hot links? Are you blistering that outside? What's your game? Oh, yeah, yeah. The hot links got to get blistered.

The dogs, you just got to see them puff up a little bit, and it's like you kind of know that. But the hot links, even though they basically come pre-cooked, you still want to blister that outside and get that texture, you know, that you get on the outer skin. I'm assuming those sausage, those hot links were made with like some kind of pig intestine or something. But you want that char on that, Rob. Damn straight.

We're doing pre-seasoned? Well, we're just buying the ones. No, sausage. Not the burgers. Come on now. Burgess. You got a season of sausage casing? You have to trust what's in there.

I don't trust my local butcher. I need a guy. I think that's my problem. Everyone needs a guy. Everyone needs a guy. Hey, and some of the teams we're going to talk about today might need an extra guy. There we go. So we're going to talk about five teams.

Count them. Five teams, three of which are surging heading into the new year, two of which are unfortunately slumping. Let's start with the positive. because we like to accentuate those here on group chat. Let's start with our Brooklyn Nets, who I'm sure if you listen to this podcast, well, no, by this point,

winners of 12 in a row now are half a game back of the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference after the Celtics were blown out by, I believe, 40 or so to the Oklahoma City Thunder who scored 150 points last night without Shegilders Alexander. Rob, let's start here. Are you surprised when I'm right about everything?

What were you right about in this case? Like you and Kyrie were in full alignment? I wouldn't say that. That I've always been a deep believer in Ben Simmons and always wished him the best. No, I would just say that I think going into the season, I seem to be higher than most, especially on this podcast, on the Nets,

just if they could just set aside whatever they have going on Instagram or on their Reddit board participations that they could be a very good team. And it seems like that's kind of borne out, especially over the past month. Yeah, I mean, I think you have two pretty important developments happening at once. One, they're just flat out the most improved defense over the course of this season so far, just like a completely unrecognizable product from what we saw in November. And shout out to Jacques Vaughn for that, for buttoning these guys up.

They are the switchiest defense in the last. league. They look long. They look active. Nick Claxton has been unbelievable. You have Simmons looking really engaged. You have, you know, Katie's length playing to the best possible effect. And I think most importantly, they just kind of streamlined what they were doing. You know, we're going to switch every ball screen. The other stuff, we're going to navigate in a more traditional manner. And that works for them. We're not going to overcomplicate it. We're not going to get overly scrambled. We're going to trust our guys to guard the ball. And they've been able to do that. And when you have that combined with the team looking deeper, certainly than it did at the

beginning of the season, just like guys stepping up, getting T.J. Warren back. You know, all of a sudden, this looks like not only a real basketball team, which was a surprise, given how they played earlier in the year, but a really good one. Yeah. I hate to sound like a broken record on this podcast, but I do believe that defense is just, a lot of it, is just wanting it. It's just trying. It's literally just putting in the effort. And I want to send a big shout out to my man, Mike Scottel, who was on my podcast. on Friday, where he talked about the toxicity within the team while Nash was still coaching. Unforgetably, he was like, there were moments where Nash was trying to give guys daps

before games in and out of timeouts. And people like Katie and Kyrie were leaving the guy hanging. Like, that's the level of craziness that was happening. He gets out of there, and they just start playing harder. the spirit of the team is lifted up. I know we talk about this sort of ephemeral stuff all the time on here, but I'm really a strong believer

in just general overall happiness, general overall happiness of the guys on the team, and I think that's borne itself out within the defense. The stuff on office, they have an embarrassment of skill and riches offensively talent-wise. They are going to be able to score against teams, but let's face it, defensive talent is not something that they have an abundance in that way, right? And so they do have to try hard.

And when you see guys like Patty Mills and Seth Curry and Kyrie Irvin who look, they're just not good defenders, you know, but they're giving playoff like effort in the regular season shows that there's a level of investment. I think the schedule definitely opened up and softened up for them, which is always nice. but it's always heartening, Justin, when a group of professionals don't let their disdain for middle management get in the way of a great effort. And that's what we've always had here, right?

Never been an issue. So 10th on defense, in the entire league over the course of the entire season, I don't think anybody even saw that. So credit to Jacques Vaughn for getting these guys to buy in, as Waz was alluding to. And I think that's important because this team is pretty,

small and is going to need to be physical in order to make up that difference with a lot of teams in the league. But also, as Wads mentioned, the schedule has been pretty sherman here. So over the 12 wins, we're talking Charlotte twice, Atlanta, twice, Indiana, Washington, Toronto, Detroit, Golden State, Milwaukee, Cleveland, San Antonio. Definitely some good teams in the mix there. But there's a lot to be questionable about. And so, Rob, I guess the question really is, how much do you believe that this version that we've seen over the past month or so is the real version of the Nets? Or do you think it's something closer to what we saw earlier in the season where it's like, you know, Katie could save them. Kyrie would come in and do his thing, but ultimately maybe the defense isn't what

needs to be to be title contender. Yeah, I mean, it might not be at that level. We're going to need to see them really hit against some of the elite defenses in the NBA. And I think even if you want to look at that schedule pretty charitably and say like, look, they have these big games against teams like Cleveland. Like Cleveland's more of a defensive team. with, you know, Donovan Mitchell, you know, powering off for 70 points here and there, apparently. But, like, those wins matter. All of these wins matter.

This is basically the shape of what all NBA win streaks look like is, you know, you got five wins in there against the hawks of the world, and you make do, and you beat the teams in front of you, and you keep going. And more importantly, like, they have a proof of concept that this works. And for a team where the vibes have been so bad, being able to have this stretch to look back on and say, this is what we're building.

We know these habits, can pay off. We know that if you just dig in and guard the ball, that there's going to be real payoffs to that. And you're seeing that up and down the rotation. You're seeing like guys from all across this lineup chip in in ways that are meaningful. That to me is sustainable. Well, let's talk about the title odds here because I think this dovetails nicely with another team we have on our list here, the Philadelphia 76ers. So in the Fandulbetting odds, the top three finals odds right now are the self-ex bucks and nets. It seems pretty quick for the nets to make that jump.

But 538 also recently put out their mathematical title odds and they have the Celtics grizzlies at two, two of the teams that I've been highest on in recent weeks. So I'm pretty much John Hollinger at this point.

Philadelphia comes in at third, the nuggets at fourth, the nets at fifth. Was, does that feel right to you? or do you think this is the case like last year where

like maybe the math is indicating something that we haven't seen specifically when it came to the Celtics, right? They were big the math really enjoyed them. The numbers really stood out on them and had them as title favorites. But like, do any of these teams

strike you as being out of place? That depends. Did 538 predict a red wave or because I don't remember. No, I'm just kidding. No, I think for right now, the way these guys are playing, it feels fine. I see the nets at plus 700. Look, I still have a lot of questions about what they'll ultimately be able to stop on defense come playoff time.

I wonder if, you know, against the best defenses, if they won't redound to a lot of the stuff that we saw in the playoffs last year, which is just a bunch of KD long contested twos, which KD is a great mid-range shooter, one of the best of all times, but a playoff offense shouldn't have such a huge amount of its eating come from that portion of the floor, right? And so I still have my questions

about how good they could be in the playoffs, but I think honestly, Justin, it speaks to the non-juggernaut nature of the favorites. Like, they're not, this isn't golden state. This isn't the heat. This isn't, these teams aren't that. They're the best. They're at the top of the league, but not by some wide or distinct margin.

And so that's what I think these odds are speaking to because, look, I'm not going to get into the playoffs and think the bucks are just going to play their absolute best every single time out on offense and even defense sometimes when they're just stubborn to get out of their stuff that doesn't work. They usually wait till it kills them five, six times before, you know, they try to do something else. And so I think it's just indicative of, I don't want to say the weakness of the favors, but they have flaws. They absolutely do. And yeah, the Bucks are case in point as a team that just like, especially right now, looking very rocky on offense.

And some of that is just not having all their guys. But on the other side of that, you do have the Nets who I would say if there's anything that's a little. hazy about some of their statistical performance. It's that the numbers are goosed a little bit by beating the Warriors and Spurs by a combined 66 points. That is inflating some of these net rating

over the last X weeks. They smoked the Spurs too. I mean, those games, those are going to make them look even better on paper on top of the fact that they have been legitimately and sustainably good. Also, one last thing about the Nets, I want to say, I want to give

a shout out to Jacques Vaughn, not just of the job that he's doing, but I think a lot of times when people talk about coaching hires as far as black coaches, they'll say like a guy like Jacques Vaughn who failed at his first stop usually doesn't get an opportunity to coach a talent-rich team like this on his second try. It's going to be with some bad team rebuilding, a bunch of young guys. Hopefully he can figure it out. It's like a crap shoot damn there with these young teams as we see. So these guys usually don't get this opportunity with a team that's constructed the way the nets are.

So I'm happy for Jacques Vaughn in that respect where he gets to show his stuff where he doesn't come back like, and, you know, I think Mike Brown has had a lot of opportunities. But I'm just saying, like Mike Brown comes back to Sacramento, a team that hasn't made the playoffs in damn it, 20 years. And, you know, it's a younger team and whatever, up and coming. He doesn't come back and coach something that's established. talent rich or whatever. So Jacques Vaughn getting this opportunity with the Nets is really nice, even if it was a roundabout way. Yeah, he brought normalcy to this team,

which might be a case for Coach of the Year. For the specific group of people. Yeah, I think there's a real chance we look back at the decision to give that job to Jacques Vonn instead of Ameu-Doka and welcoming the full carnival as, I mean, if the Nets are this good, this could be one of the more meaningful, like, elements of this season.

Absolutely. Yeah. So I'm convinced that the Nets have found a footing. Like they are clearly, in my eyes, one of the best teams in the ease. I think the question now becomes when it boils down to matchups in the playoffs, how they're going to fare because someone on that roster is going to need to defend Joel Mbid. Maybe they get that person at the trade deadline before this trade deadline in about a month here.

But I'm looking at Embed, I'm looking at Yonis and thinking, huh, If they get matched up with those teams again, it could be pretty, pretty rocky. But that brings us to the Sixers here, another team that's streaking in their own way. 10 and 2 over the past 12 just before that, an eight-game win streak. Rob, you've been a big proponent. Have you seen anything with this team other than Joellen B, just being a Goliath and doing kind of what you, and I think what a lot of people expected them to do this season? Yeah, I mean, some of it is hardened, as we've mentioned, being one of the most

productive players by assist in the league, creating more points than almost anybody else out there. They've had to do a lot without Tyrese Maxi, and that's going to be kind of the big question as he's coming back now. He's already looked a little bit rusty. He's going to need to get himself in shape and an order first. And then they need to figure out like the big question, which is how are they going to be effective with their three core guys on the floor at the same time? Because they haven't, they didn't really have a chance to figure it out at the start of the year, then Harden got hurt, then Maxi got hurt. And in the meantime, I would say one other development worth noting is, Anthony Melton has been awesome. Like, he's been really, really good to a degree that

Tyrese maxi's coming off the bench to kind of ease his way back in. They've had such a good thing going with Melton's disruption and shooting and just like make shit happen instincts. That's been really healthy for them. That's been a really positive development along with the fact that I think Tobias Harris still doesn't get enough credit for sinking even more comfortably into that role this season. Like he's been asked to do even less in a lot of ways and to marginalize some of his skill set in a lot of ways. But he's become a really good catch and shoot player.

You know, he's become, he's become exactly, or at least closer to what they need him to be. We're going to, we're going to give him credit for doing less work. I am going to give him credit for doing less work. No, and, you know, the thing about the harding stuff that I'm always paying attention to and how fluid things are working. working on offense for those guys. Hardin has traditionally been somebody who takes forever to make a decision.

Like he just, you know, the ball stopping, the dribble, dribble, dribble, the refusal to take spot up threes when they're there for him. I think he's loosened that stuff up and he's making quicker decisions, which is going to be key. Because, you know, to the extent that they do anything meaningful this year, it's not really going to be because the offense is going to be because they're stopping guys. But they're going to need Hardin to be really good on that end to get anything out of what they got, right? And so I felt heartened to see him at least make some adjustment to what he's doing because he's traditionally been the most stubborn guy about in terms of his approach and his play style.

So that's been cool to watch for sure. It's just me. I just, you know, I have an aversion to this group. I just do. But they're proving me wrong. and maybe over time I'll change my mind about it. Yeah, so if there's any team

that stands out on the 538 list, it's definitely the Sixers because I think like you guys am probably more mixed on them, more in wait and C mode. But they have them third behind the Celtics and the Grizzlies. I think the question is similar, though,

to the Nets where it's, did this stretch reveal to you anything that you previously were waiting to see? Are you more encouraged about the Sixers now, fifth in the east riding right behind the calves and could easily jump into the top three probably in a couple days than you did earlier this season.

Well, not to, I think we kind of glossed over it a little bit on the top with the Joel and Bede like what else is happening with this team. Right. The 36 points per game over this stretch has been pretty good. That's what I'm saying. Like he's just straight up 35 a night. And that's different than, that's different than, you know, some of the nights in previous seasons, for example,

where if he wasn't getting to the free throw line, he would struggle. If he wasn't, like, reading the double teams perfectly that night, he would struggle. The way he is powering through people, and most importantly, like, that face-up game, the face-up game from 8 to 14 feet. From 14 feet is crazy. He's so good. And the footwork is so good. And he's finding ways to both be that guy and to be a physically dominant presence still going to the

basket. And if you could walk that line and have all of that level of creation from every kind of stage and phase of the offense, that's going to be dominant. I think the way to see is, can he be healthy in all the games that matter? Can the rest of his team pull together and stick together and kind of get in the right directions? That's what we're waiting to see on. But the early indications at this point are pretty strong. So let me ask this, Waz, so of the teams at the top of the east, let's say the top five. So you have the self-thick nets, bucks, sixers, and we can throw in the calves. Which one do you feel most confident in right now?

Still the Celtics, for sure. I mean, I would make it a tie between the Celtics and the Bucks. You know, just, I just think collectively they still have the most talent. Both teams, when they have all of their guys suited up with that caveat, of course, which is a huge one. There's more and more guys around the league. Go down. Important guys.

Go down. but I still trust them the most. Like, I don't see how I don't see how any non-Philadelphia native could say they trust the Sixers more than the bucks and, like, how can you, how could you say that? Based on what evidence could you say you trust them? Maybe you have faith.

Maybe, you know, you can go by, not by sight, but by faith and by, you know, the leanings of your own heart. You just have a feeling, sure. But, like, trust? Come on, man. No. And the Cavs, again, a super young team, although I believe in their talent at the highest end.

Like, when all of their guys are playing, you know, up to their capabilities, I think they're right nipping at people's heels as evidenced by Donovan dropping 40 the other night. Excuse me, 70. But, yeah, yeah, give me the Celtics and Bucks. I know it's not interesting or takey, but, yeah, Celtics are bucks.

I still cannot believe we live in a world where it's dropped 40 away. Let me correct it, 70. That was just a real thing that happened the other day. And we're just like, all right, another day, 70 points. Let's go. All right. Rob, where are you on the east? I think I'm waiting for you to elevate the calves from sixth tier contenders

into where they rightly belong, which is the first or second. I would say first or second tier contenders. Like the cows feel like they're at that level to me. I would put them fifth on this list. Of five teams that I just mentioned. Yeah, yeah, no. I mean, I feel much more confident in the Celtics and now the Nets. For pretty similar reasons, I think, Waz is talking about the Celtics and the bus.

It's just like I believe in the talent of Kevin Durant. And I think that's shown through. One of the numbers that I'm most heartened by during this 12-game run is that KD over that stretch is only averaging 24 points per game. And to me, that suggests that there's more collectively happening. And that's what they're going to need in order to excel. Like I said, matchups will see in the playoffs, but I could see Katie just being the best player in the playoffs and listening to the finals.

That seems realistic now. That does seem realistic. I think my worry for them, even with all of that stuff happening currently, is kind of a replay of what we saw last year, which is you're not going to play the Celtics every time in the playoffs. And last year, they were on a different level defensively.

But if you have a switching defense that can contest KD, that can make him work in a seven-game series, maybe you can gut out enough of those close games. Maybe you can win some of those battles, and that's a select group of teams that are in that conversation, but the teams the Nets might be playing against in the first round or so. Either way, I think the Bucks are a team that I do have a lot of trust in a lot of their component parts, but where I'm starting to get a little shaky is we just haven't seen Chris Middleton play a good game this season yet.

And he's missed the vast majority of it, obviously, but like if this is just a year where Chris's body isn't right the whole time, and he's in and out of the lineup, he never has a chance to like really kind of get into a rhythm and they're, it's so clear at this moment how much they need him offensively, that could be it for them. That could be the difference.

Did you ever answer the question? What was the question? Which team in the East do you believe in the most? Oh, I mean, the Celtics. Like, we're all the same page here. I was just trying to spread the wealth around. If you had a two, is it the bots? Yeah, see?

Rob don't believe. Don't do the sixers. Come on, Rob. You're thinking about it. I'm tempted to pick the calves, to be honest with you. I like that. That's spicy. That's spicy. I think, okay, look, if we're doing like the safe 10,000 feet, look at the depth chart,

Chris Middleton is great and everything is fine. It's the bucks, but like where things sit right now, I feel more confident about how the calves are playing than how the bucks would play if Chris is in 100%. This is the thing, Justin, the calves are going to guard the hell out of people. They're going to guard the paint. Their big guys are going to get out on the perimeter, play out in space. Like, they are going to be able to stop folks, right?

And I just think Garland and Mitchell are creative enough. Although Mitchell, I know he had 11 assists in that game, there's still a lot of times where he just straight up misses a wide open alley-U, a wide-open roller, whatever. But that's what Garland's for. Like, that's what he's there to do. You know, I just like the synergy of the team. I'm not quite brave enough to say I like him more than the bucks,

but I love the way the parts fit I really, really like. And another person I want to talk about is just Jared Allen, man. This guy is just one of my favorite kind of players, because I do like bombastic, poke your chest out kind of guys. But I like that Jared Allen just does. his damn job, does it well. Just, you know, all of those cliches, hard ads, boot strap, all of that stuff. Tool belt, whatever you want to use, he does all of that, man.

He's one of my favorite guys to watch because of that. It's like offensive rebounds, set hard screens, roll really hard, you know, switch out onto perimeter guys, contest guys with the verticality at the rim. You know, like, it's just he's a model NBA big man. And I want to give him props to that because we see so many freaking just dogs, especially at his position. And to watch him play is just a pleasure and a treat. I remember when he got his deal, I think it was five years, $100 million.

There was a lot of chatter about, you know, a lot of hand-ringing. A lot of hand-ring about traditional bigs and can you give them this money? But it's like, there are guys you give $100 million because they think they can do everything. and there are guys you give $100 million because they don't even want to try. And he is in that category. Like he's just going to do what you want him to do. Yes. Listen, I love Jared Allen.

Seems like a legitimately sweet human. Like I would love to talk to him about Fleischman is in trouble at some point and get his thoughts. It seems like that type of guy. You don't want to talk to anybody about Fleischman is in trouble. Be honest. Did you turn around on the show, Justin? I haven't seen the last one, but I'm, no. I don't think so.

Having said that, I don't know if any of those guys are garden KD in a series. Like Love Mobley, maybe he could, but I don't know. I just see too many flaws in terms of like stopping the most important players in the playoffs, which are the bigger wings. And I get there. They're a really good team. Maybe next year I can believe a little bit more, but we're talking about like the 1% here. And I just can't quite get there right now.

Yeah, they're on the flip side. like the calves are, sorry, the nets are a distinctly awful matchup for the Cavs. Like if that's, if that's the series, that's going to be very tough on those bigs. Yeah. All right. Well, let's flip to the west now, just briefly to talk about the team streaking over there.

Well, there's a couple, but I guess more specifically the Mavs here are riding a seven game win streak. In terms of like poking holes, I think this one might have the most of them. Like Luca Donchish is using all of his appendages in order to plug this boat.

Minnesota Houston three times right now. This is crazy. The call this a surge is ridiculous. Well, it's seven straight. So it goes on here. It fits the theme. Minnesota, Houston, three times somehow. The Lakers,

the crazy game on Christmas Day, and then the wild game the other night against the Knicks and then San Antonio. Well, Rob, you're local there. What's the vibe right now? Are people putting on their cowboy hats and then taking them off again and spinning around their head these days?

No, but maybe like throw the hat once in the air with a y-haw. You know, so some muted enthusiasm, I would say. Yeah, I think there is the appropriate amount of caveatting happening about the schedule here, especially when like the toughest opponent is the Knicks, and that game was one of the craziest finishes

you'll see in an NBA game all season. Ever. Ever, ever, frankly. But look, if we want to like zero in on what's working. Christian Wood is starting. That's going very well. We'll see how that fares when they're playing teams that are really going to stretch him out

and stress him out. But to his credit, I think this is as active as he's been defensively, basically his entire career. Like he is actually, you know, moving and engaged and like really trying to contest people, even if he's not technically flawless all the time, I think the effort is there in a way that's pretty encouraging. I'm not sure if the chicken and egg there was like he was getting blocks and now he's really trying to get blocks or if that was just

kind of incidental to him working hard, but there's definitely some statistical notes just as far as like how he's contesting shots there. But also like they're getting out in transition a little more which for a team that's this glacial is pretty important. And Luca is just freaking merciless against bad

teams and bad defenders. And that's in a similar Joelle and Bede kind of way. If he's going to punish people like this, that's going to be enough on a lot of nights. Yeah. Yeah. I just I just hate the way they have to win, which is just Luca being Superman, Hercules, Incredible Hulk,

like, rolled into one to beat the goddamn Knicks on a fluke shot in overtime. Like, it's crazy what they have to do to win these games. And the teams that we talked about previously, right? Boston, obviously, one of the best offenses in the league, they have multiple ways to hurt you. Philly, not a great offense, but has multiple ways to hurt you, and they have this great defense to,

you know, to sort of anchor themselves. You can go on and on and on, like these good teams have multiple ways to hurt you. The Dallas Mavericks says Luca has to, like, obliterate people, and then their guys have to make long shots.

You know, like, that's just, I don't know, like, that just doesn't seem very appealing. appealing to me. And so it's hard for me to call this a surge when they're beating the Wembeyanama All-Stars, right? The Knicks by luck, Minnesota, who's beat the hell up. I just can't with this team. And I know I've been sour on them all year. And I love what Lucas doing. I love watching him play. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day about Luca, and they were just like, you know, the hard in comparison is terrible. Because

one, Luca's just a way quicker decision maker. And two, the stuff that Luca does footwork-wise in the post, where he's basically Kevin McHale, too. So he's like, he's like, LeBron with the court vision, the stepbacks, the, you know, all of that. And then when he posts people up, he has the most incredible footwork down there. Like, he's incredible to watch.

It just feels so fleeting, man, like the success rate of counting on that. So on the individual team schedule pages on ESPN, they'll often list the top player in points, rebounds, and assists for each win or loss. During the seven-game stretch, Luca is the representative in all three of those categories for every game except for, again, San Antonio, when Christian Wood got a few more rebounds than him. I was just a good job to Christian Wood, you know, getting on the board. I know. also 34.3 points per game is what Luke is at heading into Wednesday night's games. So there have only been since the dawn of Jordan three players who have ever scored more over the course of the season. And it's only happened five times. I gave one away with Jordan. Can you guess the other two?

Kobe, for sure. Kobe. 0506. Hardin. And Hardin did it twice. Yep. Damn. Trivia Master Was. Yeah. Nobody has ever scored more than that in decades. That's what we're doing. I think it's interesting though in terms of the MVP conversation because we're basically like, eh, Lucas is like on the ballot, but I'm not sure you can give it to him if he does something like this where he completely takes over and rallies the Mavs into the top four of the West. Like, I think if he does this, you have to give it to him. So I'll say this, right? And this is not to denigrate what Lucas doing

because I think it's incredible. But I remember when I was a kid, I would look at the back of Jordan's basketball card. And I would just stare at that 37 and just be like, what? How? Like, how does somebody do that? Like, what the hell was happening in the NBA that year

that they just couldn't stop Michael Jordan? And what I'll say about what Lucas is doing. in an NBA where a tanking-ass team could drop 150 on a team that claims to be contending for a championship. It's a little less impressive. Just a little. I'm not trying to hate on Luca. It's just kind of crazy what the scoring is like now.

Less impressive than Wilt scoring over like five, ten white guys? Yeah. And plus, you know, the possessions of those games were ridiculous. It was, you know, the pace. I mean, I should say if those games was crazy and what was monopolized but whatever, we don't need to get into the dorkiness of

why that 55 points of game or whatever it was. Wasn't necessarily that crazy. If I can offer one more point of related dorkiness with Luca, I think him scoring this much with them being so depleted

is pretty crucial. It's not just a weirdly constructed team. It's their missing three, sometimes four rotation guys on a nightly basis right now. And he's carrying a lot and he's doing it. As you mentioned, Waz, like, in the post, on the perimeter, every which way you possibly could. Pretty dominant, to say the least,

that you can have a guy who can just up his usage from already leading the league to just, let's just pile more possessions on his shoulders. Yeah. It's not beautiful to watch or even at times tolerable to watch. But, you know, it's effective. And if he's going to keep playing like this, I mean, you just, you got to keep feeding the beast. All right, let's flip to the teams

who are having less success now. Another team in the West, we have the Minnesota Timberwolves who have had lost six straight before winning in Denver the other night. You're already getting the athletic stories, the deep dives about what could go wrong,

like what's going to happen. Will they make trades? Who's to blame? You got the blame pies being served everywhere. So I guess the question, was, I guess let's do a temperature check first. How are you feeling about your Minnesota Timberwolves right now? I think honestly, this is the NBA, guys.

Like, the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray. And that's what we're seeing with the Minnesota Timberwolves right now. Like, Carl Anthony Towns got, suffered a major injury. he's one of their best players. They lean on him. Rudy Gobert is in a completely new system, new situation, new teammates, new things to learn, and he's not completely there yet.

And they've had injuries all up and down the roster. Even a guy like, you know, McLaughlin, who's a marginal player. He's big for them ball handling-wise and point guard duties. Like, they've had so many losses as far as players to injury. Like, this is, it's fine. to me. And the answer has been, yo, Anthony Edwards,

you're the future of our franchise? Go figure it out. This is what we played a regular season for, man. Like, this kid is supposed to be who carries them in the future. And yeah, he wasn't supposed to have all of this on his lap this year. It was supposed to be a more equal split

of responsibility and that hasn't happened. But this is the NBA, man. Sometimes shit just goes haywire. And that's what's happening. for the Timberwolves right now. And I'm happy A.Rod made his payment on time. That's nice.

So he's actually going to own the team. Like, these dudes come in before even owning the team. They trade four first round picks for a dude. Like, that's kind of, you know, like, if that didn't work out, that would have been, oh, my God, you want to talk about scandal. Like, that would have been crazy. But, you know, I think they just got to live with the decisions they've made. And if you're a Minnesota Timberwolves fan,

like watching Anthony Edwards, even when he's struggling, like watching this guy figure stuff out in real time, I still think he's a pretty special guy. It's just they're not going to win 50 games like they thought coming into the season. And that's okay. It is okay, I think, in the macro sense,

but this is just such a hard team to believe it right now. Oh, my God, yeah. They're miserable to watch. They start slow in games, and when they don't, they roll over in the middle of it, and when they don't, they just, like, lose focus at the end,

like critical junctures, it's bewildering. And I think because of that, they really have as many ugly losses as any team on the board. You know, you catch the Timberwolves on a bad night. Holy shit.

It is a miserable experience to watch, and you can see it on the faces of pretty much everyone involved. And I will say, I'm in agreement, generally speaking, wise, like, look, if Carlinth and Towns isn't out there,

you're probably not going to be as good as good as you would hope to be. And you certainly are going to have an accurate picture of what the strength of your team is going to be if it was going to be the size. But Rudy Gobert straight up has not been good enough.

Yeah. You know? It's been bad. I think we've circled around every other explanation. You know, we've talked about Edwards, we've talked about Russell, we talked about towns playing poorly

and then being out. We've talked about the effort level. We've talked about the defense. We've talked about every element of this team pretty much. And I think Rudy's gotten, understandably, to kind of like, you know, figure it out, find your way.

As you're saying, you're in a new system. There's a lot of things that are different. But the reality is, like, the things that he was supposed to come in and shore up have not been shorn up. And even setting apart, like, the structural defense of that, just take, like, the rebound. The wolves are an awful rebounding team still. That's never been ever the case in the history of Rudy Gobert's career. That's the thing. And it's like, yes, some of that is guards not crashing, him not getting the adequate support.

but if like if she can't be that kind of backbone where him being out there is a very good defense and a very good rebound in core, that's a problem. You know? And so it's like if that's the flaw, if the premise is now flawed, we have issues.

And then you start needing to like take really hard looks at all the surrounding pieces and say like, if these aren't the guys who can help make us a version of a Rudy Gobert team, then who are those guys? Well, I think the question that's most interesting is what needs to change, in order for the results to change.

Like, is this something where it's on the individual players themselves to either give more effort to blend in more seamlessly, whatever it may be? Is it on Chris Finch, the head coach, to do that for them? Or is the theory of blending this team together just so it wrong and has just borne out based on that? that like the blending towns and Gobert with Edwards and all that stuff, it was just the theory behind it was just so ridiculous that it's never going to work.

Or are there like changes that could be made to the roster that could make it work? We're doing blame pie, is what I'm saying. Can I like light up the joint and we pass it around the room here and we just go, we zoom all the way the hell out? And let me ask you like, what is the job of an NBA coach? What are they doing? Like, what do you want them to do? Because if the players aren't playing hard.

That's what I'm saying. If the players aren't focused and playing hard, is that his fault? Is that their fault? You know what? This is the thing. It doesn't matter, Rob, at a certain point, right? Like, we talked about Steve Nash and guys just weren't playing hard because they hated him. Is that Steve Nash's fault?

At a certain point, it doesn't matter. You're the cause of it. Whether it's your fault or not, you're the cause of it. And so if you can't somehow Jedi mind-trick these guys into doing something else, then you are the problem. You get paid, your contract's guaranteed, you get fired, them bes the breaks, right? And so I think it's a little too early to say that, you know, the coach hasn't made this work in Minnesota.

I want to give him time to see if he can write this ship to see if these guys can be a more focused bunch the more, you know, gritty bunch. But yeah, at a certain point, man, Finch is going, he going to have to eat this. That's just how the league works, you know? Because it's not going to be, oh, we just get rid of Rudy, that ain't going to be the answer.

I think the town's thing should be something they explore for sure. But whatever, that might not be the answer for a while either. And so, yeah, I think the coach is going to be the first guy, especially he'll, I think he'll make it into next season because of how chaotic it's been. But next season, he's on the clock. Nate McMillan style. The Nate McMillan, I really wanted to quit but didn't story, was one of my favorite

in recent years. You don't really see that that often. This guy's just like, give me the fuck out of here. I'll even admit this. man, this trade is such a weird one because you've seen lopsided trades just bear or bear do-do very quickly

but it's typically when one player wanted out got their wish and it was ultimately inevitable Charles Barkley, Anthony Davis, etc. where it's like one very clear dominant player is going somewhere and the team had to get rid of them as a result

rarely and I can't even think of a con where a team just had a brilliant theory about how this new player would add what they're doing to to what they have going on here and it just completely fall flat like this and you say towns isn't here and I guess we should account for that but on the same hand like is towns being in the midst of all this going to help in the immediate I don't know I didn't help while he was playing Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I'm not sure of that yet.

I don't know. It seems like we're driving toward an inevitability where someone is going to be leaving this team in addition to Chris Finch most likely. And like D'Angelo Russell seems likely. But I can see a future where this is Edwards and Go Bear purely because you can't get rid of either of those guys. And Towns is the most likely to be moved if only because he probably has the most value. And so I don't know.

A year from now. I think is the over-under where towns is still in Minnesota. Certainly telling that we're even having that conversation, right? Like we're talking about foundational pieces, not just like, can we, you know, shuffle around the pieces to get, like, the right kind of wing to plug into this lineup. But we're,

you have to have, like, really existential questions about the wolves right now. That's as big a problem as you could hope to have, or hope not to have at this point in the season. I think where I stopped short is, like, to your point about Carl, how do you know where, like how do you make any positive progress

toward where you hope to go if he's not out there? Like how do you have any hope of trying to make this work if he can't even play yet? And so there are elements of this that are just kind of tabled and they will be tabled until you can get everyone on the court at the same time. That's not very satisfying.

That's not like the product is bad in the meantime and hopefully they can fix some of that. But there are just going to be huge, looming questions that you cannot answer in the interim. Listen, my man John Cresensky of the athletic who is about as plugged in with the wolves as anybody is or can be. He explained to me directly was like they made that Rudy deal understanding the next big thing that they could possibly do if this didn't work was move towns because the Rudy deal was made because of towns. Like he's the reason why they think they need a center with a capital C. He's the reason why they think they need rim protection and rebounding shoring up.

He's the reason because he can't do any of that stuff on his own. And so if they get him help and it still doesn't work, it's just like this is just never going to be a thing that works with you. To their mind, you know, there was no Jared Allen type on the floor when they traded for Rudy, right? But I'm just saying to bring up another center like a real real. center type that didn't come with the baggage that Rudy comes

with his such glaring weaknesses, right? So they went out and they made a splash for a guy who's won all these defensive player the year awards who's anchored all of these elite defenses. And so, yeah, Towns is going to be the next to go.

But management, like, if you're Tim Connolly, just for job security purposes, you're extending Towns' time to show what he can do with this new group out further. You know, that's just how that job works. So I think Towns has time to fail some more. Or succeed, possibly.

There are so many centers without a job. They could have just easily just tried one of those out. I mean, Javelle McGee needs a job every summer. And to that point, like the Dallas Mavericks overpaid in order to get Javelle McGee to do a similar thing there. And that has failed, but it didn't like, just ruin their franchise for years, potentially a decade into the future. It's just like, it's the amount of risk you're attaching to that just didn't make any sense.

And now you have a Cresensi story going up recently that they need a leader and that is presumably falling on Anthony Edwards, a guy who is making wild decisions right before the season started, who's 21 years old and needs many, many, many, many, many more months in order to mature into anything close to that. It's just, I don't know. A lot of this just does not make sense. I just want to clarify for liability reasons that the answer to this nor anything is Javelle McGee and we cannot endorse our listeners

paying him millions of dollars. I don't know that Javelle McGee is the answer to any question. All I'm saying is there's just bouncy rim protectors all over the place and McGee is kind of the shining example of that. Nobody wants Javele McGee but everybody needs a Javelle McGee

when it comes down to it. See, but I don't think it was a bouncy rim protection. I think it's like we need somebody who can be, maybe approximate Stephen Adams. You know, like be a real center. Just a real center. Not a

great center. A real one. So Walker Kessler? Sure. Yeah. Hell yeah. That is the brutal part. Is that a guy like that they just drafted is probably giving them that. I mean, I've said this a million times.

I'll just say this once more, but just like a veteran steady hand at point card. Like if they had just traded a draft pick for Mike Conley instead of a million draft picks for Gobert probably made sense for them where they were. So anyway, but speaking of veteran point cards who haven't been steady, I guess. This would be the opposite. The Phoenix Suns are our last team

on our list. Lost six of the past seven, 12 of the past 17. Booker is out for at least four weeks or at least three more weeks after at the time of this for, and Chris Paul, who does not look good. Career lows and points,

field goal percentage. I don't know. Rob, how are you feeling about the Phoenix Suns these days? Does it feel like the type of thing where maybe this is just the slog of the season, injuries, etc.,

or is there something like foundationally wrong here? Look, I mean, some of it is just the difference of having Devin Booker in the lineup or not is the difference between running good offense and spinning your wheels a lot? which is where they are now. That said,

it's not great that, you know, especially for us, Chris Paul defenders by trade, it's basically what I'm hired here to do. And I have no defense for the fact that he can't carry a lineup without Devin Booker in it.

Like he's just, that's kind of where he is right now. And I think some of that is Chris Paul's, like relative decline, you know, age and injury and all that. Some of it is the fact that like, what McHale Bridges and D'Andre Aiton do

as third and fourth guys is maybe a little bit, overstated when the suns are fully healthy to make you think that, oh, like, these guys are ready for a lot more than this when, in fact, they are not necessarily. And I think Aiden in particular, like, the DeAndre Aden experience has just

been incredibly frustrating in terms of when he is willing to be aggressive versus not when he's just, like, floating around out there, an accessory to the game, basically. It's tough to watch. Like, he is an indispensable part of what they are right now. And he's just not what he needs

to be on an Ily basis. Has there ever been a player with the ability to dunk who refuses to dunk more than D'Anjay Aiton? It's crazy watching him do the little finger roll, the little float shot when he's within three inches of the freaking basket. Whatever, that's just an individual gripe that I have with Aiton. But I think Chris Paul, what people got to understand is what he's done. the three years previous, were not supposed to happen. This is the typical

trajectory of these really small NBA players. They don't play very well into their mid and late 30s. It's not a thing that these guys do. Chris Paul was on borrowed time the whole time. Devin Booker

being out obviously exacerbates that, like the obvious the obviousness of Chris Paul's age And also These when you see a Oh, a guy's out with a groin He's out with a hammy

He's out with a quad Like these are all injuries That They're tricky as hell Like you stop playing for a little bit And it feels a little bit better You start playing ramping up again And then you re-injured like

Devin book is not going to be right For the rest of the season y'all Like this he's going to be dealing with this grind thing the whole time. Chris Paul's going to remain old as hell. The Ait thing is going to stay the way it is because he's already gotten paid. And even before that, he refused to dunk on people.

And obviously, Monty Williams, you know, is not feeling this dude, you know? And so there's all of this bad juju around the team. And, you know, it's funny that we're bookending this pod with the Phoenix Suns and the Nets because I think the Sons right now are the Natch Nets. They just, there's injuries. There's, you know, there's talent, clearly, but there's people in and out of the lineup.

There's personal problems within the group. And there's just a bad energy around them. And something needs to give. Something's got to change. But I don't know what that something is can or should be. You're saying Monty Williams can't get dapped up over there? Certainly not by D.R.A.E. Yeah, I would honestly look toward.

Williams and also James Jones here because on the one hand, yeah, Chris Paul playing poorly is a huge issue. But you can kind of write that off to just like father time. Like he's pretty much been holding the line with Boca burgers and like radical evolutions and biomedical care for like years now. And you had to assume.

Veganism, young. Yeah, which is like this was going to happen eventually. They just didn't really plan for a future in a way that would allow him to age gracefully. maybe they just got caught up in the fact that like Booker is, is so dominant and Aiton was coming along. But like one, Monty Williams, I don't know how he went in an entire offseason without talking to Aiton.

I thought that was a pretty big red flag there. Clearly there was clashing there, but it is kind of Williams' job. And I say this is a fellow middle manager to like to mend the fences there in order to like get him to be the best version of himself because we saw the sons at their best when Williams was specifically empowering Aiton to be this rugged, defensive-minded center. And otherwise, he tends to flow.

And, like, that's on Aiton, but it's also on Williams. And then James Jones, like, clearly has had a very difficult job there in Phoenix, given ownership and everything else. So I don't want to ding him too much. And he has lent them the credibility in order to trade for Chris Paul. He did get the Cam Johnson pick right. But other than that, like, I can't find many wins on his ledger. and if anything, it kind of feeds into this idea that we talked about going into this season

where it's like, yeah, you can get the big stuff right, but it kind of depends on your wins on the margins. Those things tend to stack up. And now I'm looking at like, oh, Jay Crowder is still home and you got nothing for him. Your draft picks, you kind of just haven't really done much with him to the point where Jalen Smith was let go before, like he only played like, what, two years with them. And so where is all that other stuff that's going to be coming in behind Chris Paul in order to allow him, to basically float through a regular season and play when it matters most. I think that's where I would disagree a little bit

as far as like the plan for the future because the plan for the future is Booker Bridges and 8. It's the idea that like as Chris declines, those three guys are escalating and stepping up and broadening out their games. I think that was a reasonable expectation to have. It just hasn't happened, at least to the degree that you need it to.

Like, McHale Bridges, yes, can do more off the dribble now than he could do a year ago. And that's meaningful when you have your full lineup. It's just not propping up, especially this new starting group, which has been an absolute disaster right now with Shammett and Tori Craig in there together. That lineup does not work. But fundamentally, like, if Devin Booker is not there, you lose. Like, you just do not have the firepower right now to prop up an actual functional NBA offense. That is a problem in terms of team building, but I kind of look at these young, still developing, still growing players, and I put a lot of it

on them, to be honest. But it's Shammett? developing player is Damien Lee No, no, no, no, no. Developing his campaign. Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, these are our ready, win now veterans. And that's probably the type of players you want in these situations, but the fact that they're not producing and booing the

starting lineup in this situation, I think that is. Landry Shamit was some incredible clipper get five years ago. Right. So, no, he's not developing anymore. The Sons aren't a team just bereft of

draft picks, who traded everything for Chris Paul and they have to make do. This is a team that could have done both. They could have followed a two track, not to the level of the wars, but they could have like ushered in a second wave behind them. And the fact that like you're not planning four injuries to a Chris Paul, I think, I think that to a certain extent matters. But I don't know, like maybe if Booker's back in here, they're winning a ton of games, they're still like very much in the West race.

They're only an eighth right now, but they're only four and a half games back just because of how messed up the West is in general. So I don't know. Like, yeah, I see what you're saying, Rob. Like, maybe it's just untimely injuries. But on the other hand, like, I do think there are some foundational things here that need to be. No, because over the past two to three years, they've dealt with injuries and they would just glide on through those things. They were a buzzsaw. You know, Paul would get injured.

Bridges would get injured. Devin Booker would get injured and they would just fly right through these injuries and it ain't happening right now you know and it's not because they don't have any players they have players it's just it's tough it's tough

well I mean Jay Crowder will be traded presumably within the next moment maybe that can be yeah I mean he'll just be home buying call duty I'm holding out trade demand I'm pissed is just

peak NBA, bro. Yeah, like, how does this go for this many months now without resolution? Like, bro, who are you? Go to work. Is there no part of you guys that admires the commitment to the bit?

It's insane. Like, the overinflated sense of ego and status and place within the league is crazy. Like, if you were that good, somebody would have came and got your ass already. Like what in the world, bro? I kind of wish I had that job, honestly.

That is the ideal. That's the dream. Seven million bucks to sit on the couch and eat lays potato chips? Yeah, that's a good. You're coming to our side out of middle management. Come on. Come join the workers, Justin. All right, well, we'll wrap it there on union negotiations. Thank you to Eduardo Ocampo for filling in on production.

We'll be back next week, same time, same place. We'll see you.