The Ringer NBA Show - The 7 Biggest Questions of the 2022 NBA Finals | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos discuss the seven biggest questions for the Celtics and Warriors ahead of Game 1 of the NBA Finals. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on my podcast. We're also doing it on the Ringer NBA show and the mismatch podcast. They are coming after some of these NBA playoff games. Check it out, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday nights on the Ringer podcast Network. Back in the mornings, I am Justin Barrier, joining me, Rob Mahoney, and back from his week-long sabbatical. Big Waz, welcome back. Happy to be here, fellas. I missed you guys. And it's a joyous occasion. the NBA finals. It's what we go through the judiciary of those damn 82 games for and it's finally here. So I'm really happy about that.

Was, do you ever worry about Ewing theory when you're away from the podcast for a week or two? Well, considering that the podcast was already a success and existed before I ever worked to the company, no, I don't.

We're playing for titles, though. That's the difference. Got you. Do you worry about Kyle Mann maneuvering politically behind the scenes for your spot, I think, is the follow-up. So he's like a Jason Kittlefinger? No, I don't think about Kyle, man, in that way. That's my brother.

And shoot, man. All that would mean is less work for me. That's just a good culture that Isaiah Blakely has built here, you know? There's no backstabbing. We're all just building toward the common goal here. Culture setter, hashtag culture. There we go. All right. And as well as mentioned, we have reached the 2022 NBA finals. We have trudged through months and weeks of regular season basketball. We've talked about the Nets and the Lakers pretty much for every podcast. But here we are ready to talk about the Celtics and the Warriors. I can tell Rob is just beaming with excitement.

I'm just wondering whose fault it was that we talked about the Nets and the Lakers every week. I mean, who could be held responsible for such a thing, Justin? You mean the guy who curates the show? I would say it's the culture. fall because we just give them what they want, you know? Anyway, so I have with you some big finals questions. We're going to go through them as a way to set up the game one on Thursday. Let's start right from the top here, Rob. Number one, which non-Stef, non-Tatem player will have the biggest impact on this series? I think it's Dremont Green.

And it's not just the defense. I mean, this series really rides on whether he can consist. get Steph and Clay and Poole the looks that are going to break through Boston's incredible defense. Like whether they can find those opportunities or not. Derek White and Marcus Smart are among the best in the league at attaching to shooters and staying attached through all these different actions. And Dremont's going to have to find a way to squeeze passing angles through to those guys. And that's going to take some creative engineering. It's going to take some on the fly reading.

It's going to take a lot of different stuff. But all of it kind of comes down to Dremont being able to point guys open or Ibrose. brow raise guys open or whatever he needs to do to kind of sync up those cuts and that movement to get the Warriors loose. Yeah, that's why I think it's Marcus Smart, right? Because he's going to be on Steph. He's going to be doing a lot of that lock and trail stuff. And as awesome as Boston is, as a switch team, we've seen it all season or at least since January

and all playoffs long. I think they'd rather not switch those Steph actions. I think they'd rather keep, stay in their base defense and not have to send help or switch when Marcus Smart is locking and trailing on Steph around the myriad of screens that they're going to run him through. And so because Marcus Smart is guarding the best player in the series, I think he becomes a very, his importance becomes accentuated

just because of that fact. Yeah, Justin, I see what you're doing here with the wording of this question, which is not who's going to have the biggest positive impact on this series, but who's going to have the biggest impact? Because Mark Smart, for better or worse, could have a huge impact if his three is falling or not.

And similar with Draymond, like if Draymond isn't aggressive offensively, that could sink the Warriors in a lot of ways. So these are two pretty impactful players, but not always in positive ways. Yeah, smart, obviously still dealing with the ankle injury that hampered in the past couple of games. Also prone to take interesting,

shots, particularly late in games, as we saw toward the end of that heat series. So yeah, there's a good chance that he does do some negative things that makes him impactful in a certain way. But I did want to get back to what was was saying about the defensive side of this. So historically, apparently, Smart plays Curry particularly well. There's like a bunch of stats that suggested. I think it was like 29% shooting or 39% of shooting. I can't remember specifically. But since they've been in the league together, Smart has been one of the best at it. was can you see why is it like as obvious as smart is just good at this defensive player of the year he's also pretty you know works around the margins of what is legal you know or is there something

more to it that maybe we're missing no i don't think so i think one he's again navigating the screen navigation is of utmost importance and he's made himself into one of the best at that And then when Steph gets the ball, like he's good enough at keeping the guy in front and giving a good contest. Like, it's really the fundamentals of defense that this guy is executing, which against most players is a pretty straightforward task. Against Steph, when, you know, you don't know where the screens are coming from, whether he's on or off ball. And he is a threat with his handle to take you to the wreck. Like, you know, he puts so many strains on 99% of defenders that they're not. effective against him.

And Marcus Smart is able to, you know, actually execute what you need to against him. And so he's done a good job. Yeah, when we talk about perimeter defense, like this guy's a good perimeter defender. That means one of or five of or nine of like a million different things. Like all of the different components that go into that, right? Marcus Smart is good at a lot of those things. But even if we just zoom in on the screen navigation that you're talking about, was not only is he good at screen navigation on the ball and pick and roll, he's great at it off the ball.

And there are so many guys who can guard a pick and roll, but can't lock and trail someone like Steph all around the floor. And Smart is in that rare intersection of guys who can do both, you know. And that's why he's at the top of those stats, Justin. It's like him and KCP and these guys who have, you know, even if the guys we may not consider to be the out and out best defenders in the league, they're at that exact intersection of skill you have to be at to even hang with Steph. Right, right.

So I had smart down here too, but I also had Al Horford, listed because I also think the size differential could be really interesting in this one. It will come down to how healthy Robert Williams is, and we'll get to that in the second. But if they are able to go to Biggs, Horford and Williams, or they'd play Tice a little bit more, then you get to see the chess match start to play a little bit because the Warriors did pretty well with Kavana-Luny in the last series, but the Mavs, as we know, just didn't have much of an imposing force down low. I do wonder if Horford changes the calculus there. Will they

load up more on Biggs in order to combat someone like Horford and maybe a Williams? Or do they go really small and play to their strengths? I also think that like Horford has been at this point, the stabilizer for this entire Celtics run. I mean,

I don't think it was like a coincidence that in the biggest shot of their playoffs when Jimmy Butler goes down and takes that three potentially to win the game. It's Al Horford standing in the paint potentially to deter him and you wonder like what was the calculus with Butler? Did he not drive in particular because it was Horford? So I just

think like, Forford just gives them what they need when they need it, which for a team that kind of shoots itself in the foot a lot is going to be really important and then we get into the whole size element of it. So I think Horford could be low key one of the most important players in the Cedars. What does the Warriors going big

even look like at this point? I guess is my question. You know, like if they are going to adjust that way, maybe the answer is they play be elites some more, which they did at the end of the previous series, and Steve Kerr said if he had been smarter, he would have been playing Bialitsa even earlier than that. That's how well Bialitsa's minutes turned out. But they don't have a lot of flexibility to even go that way, which is what makes

Horford such an interesting player is they're kind of stuck playing Looney and Green at the five for the most part. Maybe they'll try some other things here and there, but that's kind of who they are and what they are. And if Horford can punish them for that, then that's a huge leverage point in the series. I'm a little skeptical that he'll be able to, in part because I see in my head, you know, we've seen Clay Thompson

over the course of these playoffs get defensive possessions off, basically, by guarding force. You know, he's guarded guys who are less active, less involved, or they're screeners, and then he can just easily switch into actions against guards.

It's not a big deal. I see him guarding Horford at times in this series, especially when they go small. You have to imagine, Andrew Wiggins is going to spend a lot of time on the Jason Tatums and the Jalen Browns and whatnot.

So if guys like Clay can kind of chill with Al Horford in this supplementary role, in this kind of facilitating role, I see that as a win for Golden State, which is part of what worries me about that Horford spot specifically. He's been so good for them,

but he is a little bit of a, if you're finding places to stash your defenders who you don't want to tax so much, Horford is probably the place to do it. Yeah, and to be honest, I don't think Horford is the key to a potential Boston win, right? I think the team that made the Warriors look the worst ever was OKC in 2016.

Like those first four games when they went down 3-1, like even against the Cavs who they ultimately lost to, they never looked, it never looked as bad as it did for those first four games. And how OKC did that was they defended the hell out of them. Like Stephen Adams and Ibaka were switching out onto Steph and Clay Thompson, guarding these guys in space on the one-on-one. KD was at the peak of his powers, you know, defensively both on the ball

and as a health defender where he was just smacking stuff around the rim on rim protection angles. And then offensively, they weren't dissecting Golden State and the half court. They were pushing the ball down their throat and out athleticisming them. You know, I just made that word up.

But, like, that's how they got it done. And I think Boston, more so than any other Golden State Warriors' opponent in the past, has the potential to achieve those ends, right? To exert their will athletically. And I don't think Al Horford is one of the guys that helps them do that. Well, you're not worried about what happened with the Grizzlies series, where all of a sudden they build or they put in a bigger front line and they blow out the warriors to the tune of like one of the worst playoff defeats in history.

Like if I'm looking at that and being like, if I'm the Celtics, I'm like, oh, maybe there's something there. And this kind of takes us to our next question, which is, whose health will be bigger impact on the series, Robert Williams, the third, or Gary Payton the second. And obviously, I think a lot of people would say Robert Williams, right? But I do wonder if our friend the Mitten is probably a bigger factor here than we realize. it seems like Steve Kerr was ready to go to him as kind of the de facto death lineup fifth piece

and I do wonder if he is the counter that we're talking about to a bigger size Celtics team that the war just go super small, play the mitten with Draymond and they kind of force the Celtics to match up to them. He's definitely the better fit, right? It's like stylistically for this series. A healthy Gary Payton the second is a better fit.

But he hasn't played. He hasn't even been cleared yet. to play fully. He hasn't logged more than, I think, 26 minutes in any game in this postseason. He is a role player. He is going to find minutes if he's available, but I would worry about

his offense against the defense this good. Everything that Peyton, what makes him sustainable is the idea that he can find creases and open spaces and rolls and cuts, and just enough offense to make his elite defense sing, right? To make it work. There aren't that many

gaps when you play against the Celtics. there aren't that many opportunities. So I'm a little skeptical on that front that he's going to have a huge role in this series. But I think it's a fair question because this is not a Robert Williams matchup either. This is a really bad fit, I think, for what Williams does. And you could see it some in the matchup against the Mavs, too.

Like the reason Kavanaughan Luni and Andrew Wiggins and all these guys got so many dunks in the Western Conference finals, it wasn't because the MADS didn't have like a traditional rim protector, although that probably would have helped. It was because their centers had to rotate out to Steph, out to Clay, out to pool. And now you imagine Rob Williams doing that

on an injured knee? This doesn't sound great for anybody. Yeah, and I'm a little bit skeptical of the Gary Payton Jr. aspect of it, in that... Hold on, the second. Oh, excuse me, Gary Payton, the second. I think because he's more effective against these jitterbug type of guys.

Boston's perimeter threats are huge. Like, these guys are big. And he doesn't present that size advantage as a wing defender that say Andrew Wiggins does. Or potentially Andre Igu Dahlia, who his name hasn't even come up in weeks. Does he even have the juice to play at this point? So I think his effects would have been muted anyway. I do think if Robert Williams was right. There were some times, man, against Milwaukee, where he came back and he's, I don't know if it was adrenaline.

I don't know what it was where he had some juice playing out in space, which I think is going to matter against the Warriors. It didn't really look like that at all times against Miami. I think he's starting to feel the effects of coming back so quickly from that injury. So, I mean, from the two, I would think it's Robert Williams because if he does play, he's going to have to prove that he can move. laterally. Golden State challenges you that way. And so to me is definitely Robert Williams. Yeah, I mean, the last game against the heat, he looked barely playable.

In 15 minutes, two points, 0 for two, three rebounds, one assists, which is a real shame because I do think he could have been a pretty huge part of this series. I mean, even on the one knee, he was blocking three-pointers like Akeem Warwick and the Syracuse final four. Wow. Yeah. Is that not a popular reference or is it just me? It is on this podcast.

Okay. Yeah, it's disappointing because he could have potentially shifted the entire series. They could have stayed big with him and Horford, which I guess is maybe possible. I mean, this is probably a good pivot to talk a little bit about just the day's rests in between each game. Like, Rob, do you buy at all that that might have an effect or was that overblum? Because I think to a certain extent, yes, a lot of people were hurt. in that previous Eastern Conference Finals. But at the same time, I feel like everyone was pretty much relying on that being the biggest

issue overall. I mean, it depends on the injury, right? And I think it's as much this gap in between the conference finals and the finals and then the days in between games of the finals that could make a difference for some of these guys. But case in point, look at Jimmy Butler. I mean, he looked absolutely cooked with that knee injury in the East Finals. And two days later, with a little bit of rest, a little bit of ice, a couple aspirin tape to it, like he's dropping.

damn near 50 points in a game. Whatever the equivalent of that is for Rob Williams or Gary Payton Jr. I hope they're capable of that. But again, I'm just more pessimistic in general, I think about Williams fit in this series. And Peyton, I think he has a role to play. I just wouldn't overstate it.

Like Waz, I'm a little daunted by the size differential. You know, there's shades of like Rajan Rondo coming up to LeBron's hip trying to guard him with the idea of Peyton trying to guard Tatum in this series. Not to say he couldn't do anything. but it's that's a that's a tough ask yeah and i think the rest matters for guys who are nursing injuries which i guess sounds obvious but like for say people like tatum and step who are relatively healthy right now i don't think the difference between two and three days off makes a big difference

but for robert williams yeah i think when and the problem is soreness and inflammation i think that makes all the fucking difference for a guy like that um the main action who seem, again, knock on wood, to be relatively healthy, whether it's the Draymonds, the Steffs, the Jalen Browns, the Jason Tatum's, I don't think it's going to be that big of a factor for them. 98.5 defensive rating when Williams is on the court in the playoffs, best on the Celtics. Pretty good.

I think you guys are discounting the Mitten, though. Like when the Mitten has a moment in this playoffs, I want you to call me and so I can gloat about it because you can just tell, like what Steve Kerr wants to do sometimes and like where his preferences lie. And you could tell like he was itching just to unleash the mitt and on the grizzlies. And then all of a sudden, Dylan Brooks broke his arm. So we'll see. Okay.

On to the next one. A much more serious question. Who will flop more was Jermann Green or Marcus Smart? It's Marcus Smart. This guy has studied at the Kyle Lowry Dojo for flopping and he's become a master at the form. Like, this guy is ridiculous. And again, I'll say, I've said it once, I've said it again. I want to see a day where the refs treat these fools like the boy who cried,

Wolf. I'm sorry. Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me. You're not going to fool me again, as I'm the great George W. Bush once said. Like, I would like to see the refs take, be like, no, like, unless you get absolutely mulled and mugged out there, I ain't calling.

diddle squat on your behalf. Sorry. And so Marcus Smart is just, it's ridiculous what he's out there doing on both ends of the floor. His flopping nose, no bounds. He could be two feet from the basket. He could be 90 feet from the basket. He will flop in every single area. It's, it's ridiculous. So yeah, to me, it's no contest with Marcus Smart. I really want to see the training montage at the Kyle Lowry Dojo. I'm just imagine. Necks snapping. A lot of neck snapping. Like all of the dummies that you see people fight against or shoot arrows at,

just Marcus Marte running into them and bouncing off at various angles. Incredible. Danger zone. Oh, yeah. In the background. Honestly, this isn't even a question, though,

is it like putting Draymond in Marcus Smart's category feels. Yes. It's disrespectful. I know. I need to respect. On the warriors. Yeah. All right.

Let me do this then. Is it smart or is it Grant Williams? Not that. Now that I can get behind because, yeah, Grant Williams is, some people say savvy, others call it grifting. He's, he's pretty, he's gotten pretty good at that. Obviously, he studied the same dark arts as Marcus Smart. But yeah, I just think Marcus Smart is just the way this dude will just throw his arms in the air at like any contact whatsoever. And pretend that he got shot is, it's ridiculous.

I think Grant Williams is a bit more egregious. because we aren't used to it as much. Well, he's also younger. And so you don't really give him the benefit of the doubt. Also, he's freaking huge. Like, what are you falling on the floor for? Right.

And also, he just has something grating about him in general. That's really hard to pin down, but it seems like his teammates and his coach have identified what that is. Like, I don't know. What? What are you talking about? I think he's louder in a way that smart isn't.

He's a try hard, Rob. He's a try hard, man. Wow. You hear his mic'd up stuff. It's very teacher's pet-e. I get it. He's trying too hard, for real. I thought as an NBA culture, we were all aligned that this was a delightful time for

Grant Williams and Grant Williams' support and fandom. But apparently not. Apparently, this is not a safe space for that. Performative try-hardness is never, ever something I want to see rewarded or celebrating. That's my whole brand, Boz. Oh, God. Stop it. Rob.

Yeah, I got to say. than Grant Williams. I went into the playoffs a Grant Williams fan, but now that I've had to watch him so closely for so long, I'm like, get this guy out of here.

It's just too much, man. He's just, he's a lot. I guess. I mean, he's very good. I will say, on Grant Williams' behalf, when someone like Janus charged into him, you were never really sure

if he was going to take the dive or take the hit, Marcus Smart, you know what he's going to do. You know, you know smart is hitting the floor. Right, that's true. The NBA Finals are here and so is your chance to score big on FanDuel Sportsbook. Throughout the NBA Finals, FanDuals giving new customers $200 in free bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. Bet the money line, point spreads, player props, and so much more.

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Or text Hope N.Y. That's 4-6-7-369 in New York. Tennessee Red Line 1-800-9-9-9-7-8-9 or Vise 7-8-8-9 or Vise. visit www.1800 gambler.net in West Virginia. All right, let's, let's pivot here to the next question. What do you make of the fact that the Celtics are the only team with the winning record against the Warriors since Steve Kerr took over? This number has kind of been making the rounds here after the Celtics bunch of tickets to the finals. And it's funny because it's the type of thing that, like, when people say it, you're like, oh, yeah, they did have a lot of games going back to even that 7-2 win season.

where like the Celtics just like played them harder than they should have. Like when they had Avery Bradley out there, when they had a team that was like good and competitive and scrappy but not this good. And so I'm actually going to ask Waz first because he's giving a look here. Waz, do you make anything of this? Yeah, the Warriors had no respect for this team. Like if we've known anything for this team over the, about the Warriors over the years is they're play with their food sort of nature.

And they put the hammer down. against teams that they feel threatened by and have respect for, i.e., just look at what they did against Memphis, where they're losing by 50 to a bunch of dudes, you know, Tyos Jones out here looking like Isaiah Thomas. You know what I mean? Like, it was ridiculous what happened against Memphis. That's just been Golden State's nature in the current era.

It's like certain teams don't get them excited or get them up. And I don't think Boston was one of those teams. sorry Celtics fans, especially not in the earlier years, the earlier iterations of this team. Like Golden State didn't feel threatened by no damn Boston. I don't make anything of that win percentage or that number. Like, if you've actually watched the Warriors play over the years

where they do the thing of not trying for two and a half quarters and then blow the doors off of people at the end in third quarters and all of that and just end the game of 15, for most of those games, most of that period, they weren't trying hard. And sometimes it would work against them. Like a team that shouldn't beat them would beat them because they didn't, you know, put it in the requisite effort. But like, I don't buy that Boston is some kind of warriors killer.

Like, I think that's nuts. Even if I do think they are very equipped to do well against them in 2022, those past numbers, though, I think is ridiculous. Yeah, there's not a ton to read into that. that, I don't think. I would say, if anything, there's a couple of things. One, Eastern Conference teams and Western Conference teams don't play each other very much. So this is a very small sample over eight freaking seasons to draw from. So there's going to be some results. I do think there have been good games, to your point, Justin. Like, it does seem like they play

each other tight often. But some of that is over this stretch of time in which the Warriors have been good, the Celtics have been consistently one of the better teams in the NBA. They haven't really had those like awful seasons where they would have dropped 02 to the Warriors in a season which favors a stat like this but also I think what this stat and with this argument and with this whole conversation is driving at is

the Celtics have spent years cultivating the kind of flexibility and channeling the kind of warriors ish defense that would make them suited to a matchup like this. I get the argument I get what this is leading to I just don't know that what happened in 2015 has much to do

with it. Yeah, no. I I don't think the question itself is all that revealing, but I do think, Rob, you hit kind of what I was driving toward. I do wonder if the bones of a pretty successful team against the Warriors has been there for a good time. And I do wonder how much that will pay off, especially as we've seen, like, the Warriors are going to face the switching defense. Probably the South is going to switch against the Warriors more than any other team they face this far in the playoffs. And so I wonder if like that familiarity doing that for so many years with these sorts of players, like that is going to pay off against a team like the Warriors. Yeah, definitely could.

I will say to the Celtics credit too, they are very good at switching. They did switch a lot this season, but they weren't beholden to it when they didn't need to. Like part of the reason they put Miami in so many uncomfortable situations is they were willing to move away from it and, you know, force Miami to make plays out of a drop. That works really well for that dynamic. I imagine we won't see that many defenders. dropping against a Steph Curry pick and roll or him flying around a screen. But they can find versions of what they do that's not strictly switching, whether it's zone looks, whether it's, you know, any variety of defensive schemes.

Like, this is just a really smart group of defenders who can execute those. On that note, I want to throw in one here that's not on the list. It's on our supplementary list here. Was it the Celtics defense, the biggest threat the warriors have faced since LeBron James in the postseason? I would say absolutely, yeah. Like I said, and the Cavs ended up, you know, cobbling together a defense that could stop them with, like, Richard Jefferson and Tristan Thompson. Tristan Thompson in 2016, the job that he did, you know, and earned him damn near $100 million.

But maybe to the people of Cleveland, it was worth all of that. But I really do think, like I said in the beginning, like this is the most imposing group of athletes. that they faced since OKC, honestly, in 2016, where it was like the miraculous-ass-clay game in Game 6. And then, of course, you know, they end up when ultimately taking it in Game 7. To me, yeah, this is the most imposing group of athletes they faced. Even, you know, because when you think about somebody like Kyrie Irvin

or Kevin Love or whatever, you don't think of them as imposing physical athletes. That's not the case with Boston. Up and down this roster, they have big dudes who can move, who can run, who can jump, who are explosive. And that's what I think separates the Celtics bunch from past Golden State Warriors opponents. I'm really hoping to have a Tristan Thompson-like NBA finals run, you know, show up for two and a half weeks, get some short roll hook shots, play a little defense, get $100 million. Let's see if we can work that out. Can you guys find me on the short role, please? But Tristan Thompson is instructive here too

because he was beating them up on the offensive glass as well, which I think is something that Boston is going to have to take very seriously in this series. Like they got to threaten the offensive glass. Like they have to hit these stuff, this stuff on the margins, the glass transition. And all of that stuff is being physically imposing. Like, that's how you achieve those things.

So yeah, man, Tristan Thompson, the blueprint. Apparently. Although if we're saying, you know, since LeBron, the biggest threats to the warriors, they've encountered in the postseason, I mean, the Raptors beat them. That seems like a pretty big threat. Yeah, I mean, do we think that the Raptors would have won

if the Warriors were healthy? I think, I mean, the Durant element is hard to know, like how that would have changed the series. Obviously, he's great. I think even without Durant, if Clay had just stayed healthy, I think the Warriors would have forced game seven. Maybe they would have won anyway.

Right. But like if we're talking about these physically imposing teams, these teams that have the savvy to exploit you. Like that's another in that category in a different way. Like Kauai just moves people around in a way that the warriors have been historically vulnerable to. Well, I wonder if the Celtics almost have like an amalgamation of all the different things that the warriors have faced up to this point. Like the rockets obviously were very successful switching against them.

when was that? 2018? I lose track of time. That was probably one of the biggest threats ever. Tatum obviously is not on a LeBron level, maybe not even on a Kwai level yet, although that's probably, he's in the ballpark at least.

Like he is that kind of offensive force who could maybe match shot for shot with some of these guys if he's on and if they're not turned the ball over enough. So they just like have enough pieces that I wonder if collectively this is like probably one of the biggest just obstacles they're ever

going to face. It's a really great challenge. And by far, the best matchup that the Warriors have run into in this postseason around. Like, they have everything they need Boston does to win this series. Whether they can make that happen, whether they can get the exact edges they need, whether they can be healthy enough to take advantage of those things. We'll have to see. But there's no question just in terms of like spot for spot, figuring out who lines up with who defensively, they've got a real shot. And it's important that, and I got to speak up for myself here, because I foolishly picked Dallas in the series before, and it was based on the performances of both teams in the prior rounds

and kind of jumping out the window with that. And I think it's important that we don't do that here. Just because Golden State completely dominated Dallas, that doesn't mean they're going to come in here and blow anybody's doors off, right? And just because, you know, Boston barely got out of a series against a team that everybody thought they were clearly better than doesn't mean that this matchup won't allow for them to play better.

So yeah, I think they're in a good position to make things very hard and nasty for the Warriors. Boston might have one of the toughest paths to the finals than I can remember. It's like the complete opposite of when LeBron used to just like walk into the finals every year and just like knock off whatever like half-baked contender was popular at that time. is probably a Demard de Rosen Raptors team. How dare you disrespect the Hawks team that the starting five

one NBA player of the month? How dare you disrespect that team? For those counting at home, I think that's now three of the four segments we've done so far that LeBron or the Lakers has come up in in this Warrior Celtics finals preview. Rob, what do you think about? What does this mean for LeBron?

This finals. What does it mean for his legacy? Yeah, what does it mean for his legacy? Do you think he could have, with Darwin Ham as his coach, made the finals this year? I can't wait for if the Warriors win, there will be that conversation about,

oh, it's even more impressive now that LeBron beat this warrior's team. It'll look back even more favorably in the eyes of history. Just do you wait? All right, well, seeing that we're kind of sort of maybe on front office talk, let's switch to our next question.

which front office has been more oppressive the warriors building a young core to extend their dynasty or the Celtics building the right supporting cast including their coach around jalen and uh jason tatum to me i i got to say the warriors is more impressive because it took a level of restraint um to do this right like they could have just straight up put all the chips on the table moved every young guy, moved future picks to get in on some of these superstars sweepstakes, and they fell back.

And I don't want to take away. I think Danny Aange has kind of been vindicated this playoffs because so many people that he drafted and helped develop basically have been instrumental in making this happen for the Celtics. But like, that fucking Paul Pierce trade happened like 10 years ago.

You know, like it's taken that long to get to this. point. And so for Golden State to go from Dynasty S team, 15 wins or whatever the hell it was to get the number one pick in the draft and to get back

here, you know, like that's pretty impressive. In such a short order, that's pretty impressive to me. Not that I, you know, shout to everybody in the Celtics front office, of course. Of course. Of course. Goes without saying.

Well, I mean, needless to say, both of these teams are pretty impressive. They're in the NBA finals, so things are going pretty well for them. Rob, can you just answer the question? I'm getting, I'm getting to the answer, Justin. God, give me a break. I was going to try to give a more comprehensive contextual answer about how, you know, it's not just the young guys for the warriors. Like, fuck the warriors.

I love the Celtics. Go Boston. Here's the quick and dirty. The Celtics would not be here if they had not made Imeudoka. their coach. Period. End of story. I think the first half of Boston season was turbulent to the point that it threatened to take the whole thing off the rails. The players themselves deserve a lot of credit for that, obviously, for saving their season. But I think Udoca struck the exact right balance between empowering players with new responsibilities,

like a Marcos Smart, for example, with laying into guys who weren't doing their jobs, with pulling back and letting the team figure certain things out for themselves. He's been amazing and exactly what they needed at a time. where they really needed a lot. And so I've really appreciated the job that he's done not only tactically in terms of changing their defensive alignment and things like that, but just in terms of his overall approach with this team in a way that, frankly, I don't think Brad Stevens would have done this job if he were still the Celtics head coach.

And so front office stuff aside, like the Derek White Trade, great. They needed a player like that. All that stuff is valuable. The decision to make Udoca, the head coach, I think, is more meaningful than drafting Moses Moody and Jonathan Cumminga, who made. not play more than a handful of minutes here and there in this series. Can I poke holes in the Derek White

trade part? Sure. If they didn't make that trade... It's just struck in the Derek White deal, huh? Yeah, if they didn't make that trade, would anything be different? Yeah. I think they would have left

themselves pretty vulnerable to like a trade like Derek White, what it does is sometimes like take a liability off the floor, right? And so there would have been a lot more Jimmy Butler posting up Peyton Pritchard, if not for Derek White being available and active and engaged for some of those games. Or maybe they keep Dennis Schrooter in this scenario.

That's what I was going to say. Whoever the point guard is you want to plug into that spot or combo guard they might have traded for instead. I think a lot of those guys would have been open to just getting worked by some of these playoff opponents. Also, related to the Stevenson-U-Doka situation, Stevenson had the... Stevens. Excuse me.

had the humility to be like, these dudes don't want to listen to me anymore. Somebody else has to go and do that. Of course, a promotion was waiting for him when he had that, like, whatever. But at least the egosiness of being like, I can't do this anymore. And two, man, Danny Ains would not have traded for Big Al, straight up. That he would not have brought him back in there. No shot.

And that, I don't, I think that's absolutely more consequential than the Derek White. deal. I don't think they get back here without going out and getting Big Al, for sure. Yeah, I think the Big Al trade was one where I was really starting to look at Stevens's moves pretty skeptically. I was wondering if this is the case

of a former coach who has an allegiance to certain players that he's worked with in the past. Yeah, and like, he's loading up his team for that reason. He's a little bit too close to the process when he needs to be a little bit more removed and think more big picture, more holistically. The Thice trade. Same

thing. Like, didn't really needed to give up what you gave up for him. Worked out fine. And the white trade in particular has worked, right? So we can't argue with the results. I do wonder long term if the value of that was probably a little too steep because they already had Josh Richardson in house who was shooting particularly well. And he isn't a defender that Derek White is. And so maybe that, maybe this is like too tough on Stevens for that reason. And I do wonder if the ball movement that we've been so excited about for the past couple months, maybe it's not there. And maybe the passes aren't as crisp. Maybe things just don't move as much. And that was a big issue for Tatum and Brown in particular. But they give up Josh Richardson,

Romeo Langford, the 14th pick in a recent draft. 2022 first, which 2028 first round pick swap. And so on the one hand, it's worked. And they're in the finals. And maybe that absolves all. I do wonder value-wise, that was a little steep and we're going to look back on this and be like, oh, remember when, uh, you made this trade and now like some other GM has to pay the price for this? You already answer it.

They're in the finals. Like give up your picks. Give up your pick swap to go to the NBA finals. It's not a hard bargain. We said that about the Lakers trading for Anthony Davis and look where we are now. Yeah, they won a championship. I know,

but like when you have LeBron, you could win like five championships and the idea of like limiting your window to one. That's a day. That's a ding. Can we just ding every time LeBron comes up in a new segment, please? Fine. Let me say this. If we're looking at the recent front office decisions of the Warriors versus the Celtics,

the most consequential decision might have been drafting Jordan Poole at number 28. Yeah. Like that is a huge get. And it took a long road, him working his way up through the G League, basically, to get to this point. but that is an incredible fine for that front office that in some ways offsets the fact that they took a player with the number two pick who will not appear in this series

for health and other reasons. So that's, I think it's a little bit mixed on both sides in terms of, oh, like, did they give up too much for a Derek White? How do we feel about this exchange or that? How do we know, like, does it, should we count it against the warriors that James Wiseman is not a factor

by this point in his career? Maybe they, maybe, like, even if it is for health-related reasons. But, I mean, that Jordan Pool pick, unbelievable. And it shows how one correct pick at that stage in the draft, whether it's him, whether it's Draymond in the second round, whatever it is, can just completely restage what your franchise is capable of.

Yeah, and I think another part of the Derek White piece that we're missing is that his like just ability to keep the ball moving on the offense was something that they really, really, really, really needed at the point that they got him in the regular season. And even if we acknowledge they're not doing that shit in the playoffs. It mattered in the regular season when they got them, though. And I think it re sort of contextualized this team, right?

And because they're playing so well, it, like, gives them a confidence. And I think Derek White helped in that situation, you know. And I really do think he's Fred Van Vleet number two because he's played way better since his kid was born. And I think that's going to keep going. Yeah, a lot of maturity there. New father. He won't get the 100 mil like Van Vleet got, but he's doing his thing. Yeah.

I will say one thing just to, since I poked holes on the Celtics with the Warriors, because I followed too many rabid Warriors fans on Twitter. Someone retweeted something out to my timeline, basically suggesting like when Lakeup and Myers, I think it was yesterday, talked about like their long-term vision for the franchise, how they didn't want to trade some of the young guys because they wanted the second chapter, yada, yada, yada. Someone was like, maybe hold off on the vickory lap until you win the finals because, like, this series in particular is the type of series where you would want another star. So if like a week from now, it's 4-0 Celtics, we might like think about this a little differently

and be like, maybe you should have just like traded all these guys for Bradley Bill. I also wonder, too, like, what was the opportunity that they passed up on? Like, that's the unknown there. Did they actually have those conversations for a star? were there no star on the market in order that was worth trading some of these guys that's kind of the other variable. So like, yes, they have...

They missed out on a Hardin deal. Right, right. Well, not to make this a full-time Jordan Pool pod, but there's some trade-offs there too. Like, if you trade for Bradley Beale, is Jordan Poole? And is having him at the level he is, in addition to the potential of these other young guys

more valuable than that? I mean, I think we're seeing a pretty compelling in case that it is. Yeah. I mean, if they do have the second chapter, if like they do hand the baton from stuff to pool in the way that it looks like right now, it might be one of the most impressive, like front office jobs in NBA history. Like, I was trying to think of even a comp here. I guess it would have been the spurs, like, from Robinson to Duncan and then Kauai and then Kauai just like kind of opted out. But like, man, I don't know. Even this could be like to have a seamless transition into a next era like this might even be more impressive. So since we're

talking about legacies, gentlemen, whose legacy will be most impacted by the results of this series. So not necessarily for the good, not necessarily for the bad, but who will be most effective legacy-wise by the results here? Rob?

I have kind of a swerve, I guess, and it's Andrew Wiggins. Oh, like that. Because if the Warriors win the championship, and Wiggins is the incredibly competent and reliable player that he's been basically throughout these entire playoffs and throughout the entire season more broadly,

that changes his reputation forever. Like, he's still the guy who wasn't quite the star you wanted him to be, but now he is championship minted. Now he is revered in a city, has a home. He's like, those guys,

like think about the way André Iguadala was thought of differently after what he did against LeBron and the finals, the way he showed up for the team. Like, there's a lineage here with guys like Iguodala and Clay Thompson in terms of playing high-level defense against star players.

And over the course this run, I think it's only going to look better and better what Wiggins did. Guard John Morant, guard Luca Donchich, hypothetically, I mean, most likely guard Jason Tatum throughout most of this series. If they win, I think he looks great for falling into his role and playing really high-level defense. How old do you think Andrew Wiggins is? Off the top of your head. 25? What'd you say? I'll go over.

Yeah, 27. I'm surprised. He has another contract in him. He's a free agent after next season. Like, there's a good chance that he could be making $20 million again, and it will actually be appropriate for him. Like, that's insane. Yeah, I think that's a great pick.

Yeah, he'll deserve McHale Bridges money for sure. Right. But again, like, it's a reframing of what type of player he is. Yep. Yeah. He's a McHale Bridges type. And not a Jason Tatum, you know, Kauai Leonard, whatever. you named the big wings who are ball dominant.

He's not that. He's been recast in the type of NBA player he is. I think to me, what it would mean for Jason Tatum to be the best player on a team that went to championship, it's even bigger than Steph getting back and getting a fourth ring, right? Because ultimately, 2015 happened, period. So whatever you want to say about the KD years,

which we don't need to do right now, Now, 2015 happened. He's won a ring where he was the absolute focal point, even though the media stupidly gave the MVP to Igudala. He's done it already. And I think about guys like KG. I think about the guys on that Pistons team that beat the Lakers in the finals. Like, just getting one ring means everything for you.

Like, does Charlty Billups get a coaching job if he never won a ring? I don't think so. Just think about the way we think about KG. If he had never won that one fucking ring, he would be looked at completely differently. Not that he wasn't probably the best defensive player of his generation. Probably the best defensive player since Bill Russell. Okay.

Like, if he doesn't win that ring, we just change how we think about the guy. So I think if Tatum could go out and be the focal point of a championship, it'll mean everything for him. in a way that it won't mean for Steph and Draymond and Clay in them. Yeah, that ring definitely bought Kevin Garnett some like extra leeway for just like yelling at people. Like you would have just been like the high scoring agro guy, I think. I do like in the Tatum conversation in terms of what it could do for his legacy and his career,

just like removing the pressure and the angst. All of that conversation, like we zoom out really quickly. and we don't dwell so much on the ends and outs of like do we need to break these guys up it's so much like this is already a championship team this is already a champion you could see a career for Tatum not in terms of game necessarily but trajectory

that's like a Dwayne Wade like career right Wade won a championship really early and was just minted as a superstar so soon and so quickly that he played with a confidence throughout his career that was so obvious and could drive an entire franchise and like that's the kind of long term situation you would hope for someone

like Tatum and the Celtics, that not only is he a great player, but he is a, like, you know, the numbers up in the rafters, even with that esteemed company, that he is a franchise level cornerstone for such a long time in that kind of way. Yeah. So Tatum is 24 years old. The finals MVP's who have won 24 are younger, Kareem, Magic, twice, Kauai, Tim Duncan. And I do think one of the kind of big storylines

running through these playoffs is how good is Jason, data, right? We know that he's been great for Steam All-MBA, but I think there's still some doubt given his age, given the fact he hasn't done it as long as he should. Honestly, because most of the time that we give him his credit, he shows up the next season and he's a little

bit kind of lackluster to start the season. Usually turns it on later. So I do wonder if this is kind of a coronation in the same way, like maybe Kauai was for Kauai. Maybe it was, to a lesser degree for Yannis last year. Do we look at Tatum different

if he wins a finals MVP. Like, yes, obviously. But I wonder if this like also launches him into a stratosphere that we can't take away from him. He's a top 10 guy. He's maybe a, I don't know the list off the top of my head, top five guy, whatever. He's the type of guy that like he's going to be front and center of the league for a while. Where right now he's kind of riding shotgun or he's in the back.

And all of a sudden he becomes that. But do you want to talk about Steph briefly? Just because on the one hand, like, I don't know if a finals MVP is going to change much with his legacy, although, like, I guess if you're getting into like the, like, big picture conversations, like, I do think it will probably matter when we talk like top 10, top 15, top 20 all time. I don't know if I'm educated enough to have that conversation, especially right now, but I do think it matters to him. And I think you can tell based on the team's reaction, his reaction to winning the Magic Johnson conference finals trophy at the end of the last round. At the very least, they're all aware of it.

and enough to make it a joke or like whatever, it's not something that's dogging him. But like they clearly acknowledge it. And it would be nice for one of the best players of all time, one of the most transformative players of recent modern basketball history, like to actually win a final MVP. Yeah, to me, he's now knocking on the door of the Kobe's, the Duncan's, if not quite at the Kareem.

Magic, LeBron, Mike level. Because I think those guys are part of their own crew. And then everybody else right behind them, you know, even the Larry Bird, if you will. I think Steph is now making it so that he is firmly entrenched with that next crop of greatest of all time. If he comes out and he did again in the finals, what he did in the conference finals,

which is just be objectively the most, insanely important player on the floor in a series, right, deep into the playoffs. And so for him to do that, I think he just firmly entrenches himself in that top 10, whatever type of range. And I think he's going to get there eventually at some point before his career is over anyway.

I love those comparison points of Duncan, of Kareem, of Kobe, because all those guys are like multi-generational champions, right? I think the break between these runs is what makes so theoretically impressive if the warriors are able to win this one or future championships or whatever. Just the fact that they're contending again puts him in a pretty rare position. He has some work to do to get on.

I mean, I think Duncan's first and last championships were like 15 years apart or something like that. 50 years apart. As good as 50, which is ridiculous. But just the fact that the warriors were able to reload in the ways we've talked about, the fact that they are seven years removed from their last championship and they're right, right back in the mix of it.

I mean, it's impressive as hell, and it all comes down to what Steph creates for that franchise in terms of the stability he offers, what he allows other players and stars to do. It all comes back to him. All right, gentlemen. Last question. Who wins?

How many games? Was. Man, so I really almost wanted to chicken out of this pick, but I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to let the egg on my face from picking against Golden State. in the previous round. Stop me here.

I think Boston is going to win in six games just because I think if it gets to seven, you're just not going to win on the road in a rabid-ass chase center. I just think Boston presents the right type of problems. I think about Milwaukee series against Brooklyn last year, where it's not that KD didn't get off, but it was hard, right? Like, he had to expand so much energy.

to get what he got because Milwaukee can throw this myriad of defenders at him. And I think Boston can present those problems for Steph in his shot creation. I don't think it's going to be a bunch of Kavana Looney layups in how Golden State is generating offense. They're going to have to consistently generate offense by Steph being individually great. Not just picking apart, you know, a blitz and his team gets the quick four-on-three advantage. He's going to have to be individually incredible game after game after game for them to generate great offense. And I think the Boston Celtics have the kind of guys that make that hard.

And I think over the course of a series that's going to wear on Golden State's offense. And despite Clay Thompson every now and again looking like his old self, Jordan Poole looking incredible in spurts, I think Boston just defensively, they're going to win the day and they're going to win this series in six games. Sorry, all of my Golden State contingent out there. Washton in full effect. You're committing to the bit. What a heel turn, or I guess face turn.

Yeah, that's more of a face turn, I guess. I'm a Warriors and Six guy at this point. I flirted, I would say. I'm closer to picking Warriors in five than I am picking Boston, I would say. Wow. I think the dynamics favor them in a way that that could be explosive. I mean, Golden State has looked so good, so consistently now over the course of the last series, in particular, that I have faith. I have much more faith in them cracking Boston's defense than the opposite.

I saw a Boston team that was stuck in the mud against Miami. I don't expect a lot of that to change against the Warriors defense, which we haven't talked about a lot, but is obviously hyper-competent in its own right. I think the Celtics are going to struggle to score a little bit more, and it's going to fall on Tatum to have those huge games. maybe he has three or four of them over the course of the series but I trust that individual greatness from Steph more than I do Tatum to give Boston an overwhelming

effort in exactly the way it needs not to be just reductive about the star part of it but I do think that's what's going to come down to in some of these matchups with the way these defenses play when you take away the trappings of the Kavana Looney layups it is going to come down to those dynamics and I have a little bit more faith in Golden State right now

I do wonder how much in Mois alluded to this earlier like how much the previous series are weighing on us as we make these picks. How could they not? I know, but it's like the Warriors have looked so good of late. And here's the thing. We got to remember about Dallas, guys. Nobody picked them to go to the conference finals for a reason.

And part of it is that, and I keep telling people this, Jay Crowber fell on Chris Paul's leg and ruined him for that series. And so, yeah, Dallas looked like world beaters, but they probably looked a lot better than, than they actually were, which means that Golden State beat a team that wasn't that great if we're being honest here. And so I just think Boston is a big step-up in competition

from everybody else who they faced. And maybe I'm just coming up with excuses for my pick. But that's how I feel, Rob Mahoney. No, it is a big step-up. I think the qualifier is even against lesser competition, even with everything being what it was, the Warriors have lost four games. in these playoffs.

Four games. Yeah. Are we really thinking they're going to lose four more over the next two weeks is really the proposition we're asking here? That's a great point. It's just hard to shake the vision of Game 7 last couple minutes of the Celtics when the heat went on what? Was it a 12-0 run?

It was a lot. It's just like, man, like they're really riding the rails there and as impressive as they've been throughout these playoffs, beating three of probably the best teams in the playoffs. I know there's probably some contention there over whether the Nets raised that bar, but that was a very hard-fought four-o sweep. So I don't know if a lot of other teams would have gotten to that. And I also think like the Celtics probably as we already diagnosed,

like are going to be the biggest test of the warriors in a very long time. They're almost like built to play the Warriors. And yet I can't, I can't do it. So I have Warriors and Six also. I think it's just like it's hard. to ignore the institutional knowledge of it all. And the injuries, plus the fact that the Celtics haven't been here yet, and they have looked shaky

on even slightly smaller stages, that combination is like really tough to decide with them. So maybe I'm eating my words a couple days from now, but I have Warriors and Six. I feel like we're just setting up for an open to a pod or Wazz is just cackling at a, at a, at a 30 Celtic start to the series or something. Well, I look forward to that, I think, maybe.

Or maybe we'll have the flip side, and this just becomes another hawks running there for us. All right, that'll do it for us. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz on production. We'll be back next week. I believe we're on Wednesdays in the mornings next week. So until then, we'll see you.