The Ringer NBA Show - The Actual NBA Offseason Is Here: The Bright-Future Grizzlies, Ripple Effects of the Westbrook Trade, and the Star Movement Era | The Mismatch

Episode Date: July 16, 2019

With the 2019 NBA summer league in the books, the guys discuss the bright future of the champion Memphis Grizzlies as well as other Las Vegas standouts (1:08). Then, they debate the merits of the controversial Russell Westbrook trade (22:40) and the increase in player movement in the modern NBA (49:21). Hosts: Chris Vernon, Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. After you finish the episode, make sure to check out a brand new episode of our live music series on YouTube called The Ringer Room. Each month, we feature a new up-and-coming musical artist to play a live set in The Ringer Studios. So far, we've featured artists like Cautious Clay, Mount Joy, and Earth Gang, and we just posted our episode for July showcasing Charlie Bliss. You can check out those videos at YouTube.com slash The Ringer. Welcome to The Ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Vernon, joining me as he does every day. Every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Connor,

aka Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Connor, A.Keevan, A.Keelea. Kevin O'Brien. You're just going to go and just keep going and going and going for like 10 minutes straight. It was great to see you out in Las Vegas. Dude, it was so good. last night, the NBA Summer League concluded with the bright future grizzlies. Yeah! Bright future Grizzlies!

Hoisting the trophy with medals around their neck and I guess they got T-shirts, I don't know, for their win last night. But on a on something that does actually matter greatly,

it was the performance of Brandon Clark. And I think he is an interesting case study because what I was getting last night via social media was everybody talking about Brandon Clark. And this is one of those rare circumstances where a guy gets drafted, lower than people expected. There was a lot of the media that were very, very high, yourself included, on Brandon Clark and his future prospects in the NBA. and it gave everybody kind of the opportunity to say, hey, what happened here? Why did the whole league miss on Brandon Clark, who put up an MVP performance in Summer League?

And despite playing only 22 minutes a night, average 15 points, 10 rebounds, knocked down some threes, which nobody expected was in the arsenal at all. 55% from the field, 76% from the free throw line, and was the 20,000. first pick overall after a trade-up by the Grizzlies to the Oklahoma City Thunder. What do you take away from this Brandon Clark performance and the fact that virtually everybody had Brandon Clark going higher than 21 in the draft? And then it comes to the people that actually get paid to make these picks, and he ends up 21st.

Well, it's fascinating from an NBA perspective. I have yet to hear a reason that made a lot of sense to me. With Brandon Clark, the knocks for his age. He's already in his 20s, the upperclassman. His wingspan, six foot eight wingspan. But to me, that never really mattered too much because Brandon Clark doesn't play like he has a six foot eight wingspan because of his leaping ability. And his reaction time, he plays a guy who has a seven foot wingspan.

It's been his weight, weight in at 207 at the NBA Combine. So how effectively can he defend big men when he has a big man skill? set, well, Clark is more than a big guy. He's someone who can defend the perimeter, a weak side help defender with a high, high basketball IQ and a high motor. So it's the type of thing where I feel like Brandon Clark in the draft with why he fell, people were trying to slot him into being something that he wasn't instead of looking at him for what he is. And he showed what he is in Summer League, Chris. He showed that he has elements of a Pascal Seacum in him, with the rim running, with the hustling with just the amount of versatility that he has.

He showed some Sean Marion in him as well, and I don't want to go too far with that calm because Marion was a star in his day. But there's elements of Sean Marion in there with the above average jump shot, with more of the big man style skill set, with a little passing in there as well. And just the overall sheer versatility

in the defensive end of the floor, his shot blocking is not just because he's long and tall. It's because he's so smart. and he rotates so perfectly. So for Brandon Clark to win Summer League MVP and then, of course, Grizzly's winning the Summer League championship, Clark was a big factor of that,

not just because of the numbers and the highlight plays, the dunks and the blocks. It's because he was always in the right position on both the offensive and the defensive end of the floor. And as you said, Chris, he got better since the end of the college season at Gonzaga, where he only shot 27% from three. Did not take a lot of shots,

but he revised the shooting mechanics. and what he had in college was good touch. He always had good touch on floaters and hook shots, those little runners in the lane layups with either hand. He always had good touch. But now that he's revising his mechanics, that touch is translating to corner threes and even some above the breakthrough.

So Clark is looking like he was a steal of the draft in my eyes on draft night, and you don't want to use summer league to confirm your biases, but it's nice to at least see it translating so far. The next step will be preseason, and then regular season basketball. But I had him rank 7th, and I have high confidence that this is going to continue with him. When I was putting together my ringer article of the guys that can't fail, after Summer League, there were a few regrets.

And Clark is obviously one of them because you look and you see everything he did in college. I remember at one point tweeting out, this guy has more blocks than he had missed shots throughout the year. And is this great example? of talking about what a guy cannot do rather than what he can do. And when I would talk to people about Brandon Clark, I went and pulled my notes as to like, why did I get talked out of this? And it was overwhelmingly shooting. That's why I got talked out of it. That in this day and age, you have got to be able to knock down a shot because when it gets to the highest level, they are going to expose that you cannot knock down the shot. And it was a question. And so if we're doing

the, this guy cannot fail, I at least was met with some level of resistance to, hey, it could not work out, Chris, because if you can't make a shot, you are going to be in a tough spot in the NBA. And that was a bit persuasive to me. I mean, that's why I got talked out of it. And I will tell you that the name that I had written down next to him that one executive said to me, they said, he's just like Larry Nance, so where do you want to draft Larry Nance?

And do you want to say, and do you want to say Larry Nance can't fail? I'm just telling you what somebody said. I know. That's not my opinion. I know. He's not just like Larry Nance, though. Brandon Clark has way better touch

than Larry Nance did in college. And also, Larry Nance also has an injury history, which is another reason why he fell in the draft specifically. In regards to Brandon Clark, to me, the reason why I felt some level of optimism with his jump shot was because of the touch factor. You could see that manifest for him in Summer League. He can do more away from the rim.

It's just he had to revise his shooting mechanics. He already did at San Jose State before transferring to Gonzaga. That helped his jump shot. And he's done it again. So Clark, he's one of those guys who has shown a willingness to change his mechanics. And he showed some level of success in doing it with mid-range jump shots. So now it was about extending his range to three. and he only attempted nine, and he hit five of them, so you're not going to read too much into the results.

He very well may just be like a 30% three-point shooter. But you know what? That's okay to me. That's okay because of the fact is that that's not his primary role on offense. His primary role is rim running, and that's what makes him a perfect fit alongside Jama Rantz and a perfect fit alongside Jaron Jackson Jr. Because Jackson Jr. can be the guy spacing the floor or taking on virtually any role on the offensive and the floor. John Morant's pick and roll playmaking wizard now has a lob threat in Clark.

That is his primary role, attacking the offensive glass, rim running. If he can also shoot a jump shot at a slightly below average rate, that's cool because that's not his main thing. It's defense and rim running on the offensive end, and that's where he's going to have his career established. And if he does become like a 35, 36 percent three-point shooter or even better than that, we're talking about somebody who's going to become one of the top 40 players in the league. That's the type of potential that he has if the jump shot becomes a real threat,

but already he has a foundation to become a good player. And for what's worth, there's people who are like, listening to this right now, listening to us, Chris, like, it's the only summer league. This evaluation isn't based just off this month. It's based off his college career. It's a large body of work, not just summer league. But what he's done has shown improvement since the end of the college season. And that's what's especially encouraging. You know, it's interesting that you brought up Marion, because I brought that. name up to him when I interviewed him at Summer League as a guy that say if Brandon Clark reaches his full potential. I mean, Sean Marion is an underrated player in the pantheon of the NBA. This is one of the

great players we have seen. But interestingly enough, he grew up a Sun's fan. And so him being even said in the same sentence with a Sean Marion, and you see a lot of it, because you've got this crazy athleticism, and you've got a shot that looks strange. And he actually, used to shoot it, as you could attest. People that saw him long ago, even at San Jose, it was a bona fide ridiculous shot. It was gross looking. It was really disgusting.

And now it looks normal. It doesn't look ugly anymore. It's a little unorthodox. But I mean, do yourself a favor after listening to the pod. Just search for Brandon Clark's San Jose State. So if we look at Brandon Clark who won the Summer League MVP and we say, okay, this guy, we already believe, he was underdrafted. The other one that falls into that category the most, and it was somebody

that I put in my article, and so I felt great about it after this entire Summer League played out, is the kid that the Pelicans got, Nikiel Alexander Walker. Kevin, he is awesome. What I saw in him was a guy that did everything with both hands. I mean, he could pass with both hands. He could shoot with both hands. He was active on the defensive end. I love Buzz Williams guys. I mean, you can go back to the, so many of them have outperformed there where they were drafted, whether you're talking about Jimmy Butler or Wesley Matthews or Jay Crowder or whoever it may be. You know, they have to play hard and they have to play defense, which coaches love immediately. But the skill level that this guy showed, and there were many times throughout that

at Summer League, he just absolutely looked like the best player on the floor. It was a little reminiscent to years ago watching Donovan Mitchell. And you could just see like, geez, man, this looks like there's one guy of these 10 that looks like he's at a different level than the rest of them. And as if this wasn't a good enough summer already for David Griffin with being able to get Zion instantly great reviews for the raw Jackson Hayes. What he got in, Nikila, I mean, we redo that draft. I promise you, that kid goes way higher today than he would have gone before this, you know, a few weeks that took place in Vegas.

Yeah, I think with Nikila Alexander Walker, it was interesting watching him because he looked like the same guy he was at Virginia Tech in the sense that this past season, and he improved his passing ability. They put the ball in his hands more often, and he showed off more or less secondary playmaking skills. Not really, he didn't look like a primary guy at the NBA level because he doesn't have great burst or great speed on drives. However, he looked a bit more improved now, I think, physically,

in terms of his quickness. And so perhaps that can translate to becoming a one of two guys that's a primary ball handler. I don't think he's your number one guy handling the ball. But that doesn't matter because the fact is, that he can shoot in more ways than just spotting up. He showed the ability to do stuff off movement. He showed like some hardened-esque stepbacks and sidesteps from three and that ain't always fall, but that is not something he showed at Virginia Tech.

And it's something that he's clearly trying to experiment with now, something he's trying to develop now. And those are the skills that he can add over time that maybe give him more than just high-end role player upside. And the draft guide, I had compared him to Gilgis Alexander, his cousin, Malcolm Brogden, and Tyler Johnson. He looked like a bit more of an offensive spark than some of those guys are in Summer League. I'm curious to see how it translates when he's going against NBA level athletes, because he is lean. He is fairly skinny at his size. But very encouraging Summer League performance by him for damn sure. Other ones that stood out, I'll be damn, but it looks like Portland's got another

mega dynamic guard in Anthony Simons. We talked about Lonnie Walker last week. Yeah, those were two others that particularly stood out that really separated themselves. And the one other, and this goes along the same lines with the Clark thing that I got talked out of, but is one of those guys where I was like, man, the guy can just flat score and everybody in the NBA loves guys that can score is Edwards, Carson Edwards. I mean, it was he's little. The track record of that little is not that great.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, and he can't really defend, and he doesn't really run a team. And so you've got to find a place where somebody will let him accentuate, like that a lot of it's going to deal with his opportunity and his fit. And if he gets drafted to the wrong team, this could go the wrong way. and that was persuasive enough to talk me out of it that I felt like maybe I'm going to be too at mercy to who drafts him. But then after seeing the team that did draft him, which is Boston, who has had incredible success with small guys. And this is even prior to Brad Stevens, right? Like Eddie House, they've had these kind of guys. Eddie House, Isaiah Thomas, Kyrie Irving, now they got Campbell Walker.

And Brad has done a good job. of using these type of guys. You see him in moments and you think this is absolutely, like, I see his role, which is come off the bench, flip the game for me, because the guy has just enormous onions. He has supreme confidence and sometimes that can be his downfall, but I'll tell you, like this guy can flat score, Kev. He can score.

and I was pissed off watching him because I'm like, damn it. I mean, I knew this dude could score. I knew it. And so there is the thing you can do that can make you undeniable. Now, we will see because we have seen little guys score in summer league before at an extremely high rate. I mean, Nate Robinson is like the greatest summer league player in the history of the world. I watched Josh Selby get his number retired, you know, for summer league performances. So it's not the end-all be-all, but again, it's like...

It's definitely not the end-to-all-b-all. No, but you take what you saw in college, and then you amp it up with what you saw in Summer League, and sometimes it confirms, like, hey, man, in the end, if you can hit a shot from 40-frigan feet away, you can hit a shot from 40 feet away, no matter where you're playing. And we'll see how his career plays out, but I will tell you that that was one that as I was watching it, I had instant regret. like, damn, man, I should have rode with him, and I shouldn't have gotten talked out of it.

But another example of talking about what he cannot do rather than what he can do, that kid can score. Yeah. I mean, with Carson Edwards, to me, if you're nominating players ahead of Summer League, guys who are likely to have success in the Summer League, Carson Edwards would have been high on that list. Because as you said, Chris, for small guards, this is pretty much like their perfect platform for success, where a lot of chuckers out there and not a lot of high-end defense, there's effort, but not a lot of

high-end talented defenders. So for Carson Edwards, it's nice that it worked out for him. He was hitting deep shots, some tough shots off movement as well, not just all off the dribble. So for Carson Edwards, like, this is what he's going to be in the NBA, a spark plug who comes off the bench. But I'm not about to overreact

to him. There's still limitations on the defensive end of the floor. His playmaking remains a weakness for him. So I don't think he necessarily made the wrong decision keeping him off your list just because of his summer league performance Chris, because those are serious flaws. And that's why he fell to where he did. But with that said, like, he clearly does have the potential as a score to survive and thrive within that role, maybe becoming a sixth man, not necessarily a sixth man of the year candidate.

But I would not say no to that. I would not rule that out for him in his future. But I wouldn't overreact too much. And that's like the whole thing with Summer League, though. Like with RJ Barrett, after he struggled his first couple of games, so many people are already calling him a bust. And then he has a couple good performances, and it's like he's a star. With RJ, to me, he really captured the essence of Summer League,

just the overreactions from one extreme to the other. When really, to me, the value in Summer League has always been about seeing if guys are developing new traits, new skills. Like we mentioned to Kill Alexander Walker earlier, doing what he did, like the Hardin-esque stepbacks and all that, or as we said with Brandon Clark, the revised three-point shooting mechanics. That's the type of stuff I'm usually looking for in Summer League,

less so than the results. So it's nice to see guys improving and showing new skills more so than caring about the results because too often, too often, we have seen guys that shine in Summer League like a Stanley Johnson and then struggle in the NBA or struggle in Summer League like Trey Young and then have a great rookie season.

too often that has happened to care enough about the results. All right. Last thing to put a bow on Summer League. Kevin. Thank you. Please put a bow on Summer League. Please. There can only be one bright future team.

And I feel like the torch was passed last evening via Kevin O'Connor. For years, you have clung to the bright future sons. And there you were calling them the bright future grizzlies. Here's the thing. Here's the thing, Chris. I feel like there can be two bright future teams. There's one bright future team where, like, it is completely serious with no amount of worry or concern about that team's future. And then there can be one bright future team, the one that you dubbed, you dubbed them the bright future sons, if I remember correctly, where there's a bit of sarcasm behind it.

No, and I dug them that because of the title of your article. That's why I dubbed it that. And you're going to be calling them the bright future sons until Devin Booker's 35 years. old. Devin Booker's going to be 35 years old on a 28-win team and you're going to be calling them the bright future sons. Oh my goodness. I mean, if I'm picking one, it's the Grizzlies.

They've surpassed them in terms of bright futures. Bright future rankings, that's actually an idea for an article. Look, if you put the Pelicans right there neck and neck, that would not that wouldn't be a bad call. I mean, that was the cool thing about the summer is we saw the Grizzlies win the

Summer League championship without Jabberant and the Pelicans had a lot of good success in Summer League without Zion Williamson. Both those teams have depth and talent beyond those guys, beyond their two big stars of the draft, number one and number two pick. Yeah, those teams would not surprise me if in the future, we're seeing them battle in the postseason.

It's just one in all, Grizzlies and Pelicans. You know, it's a trip. If the Grizzlies don't beat the Pelicans, and that game went to overtime. If they don't, guess what? Alexander Walker is the MVP. So it's either going to be Alexander Walker or Clark, depending on who won that game.

and neither of those two players were their team's first draft pick. And in fact, Alexander Walker was the frigging third pick that the Pelicans got, which is crazy. Jackson Hayes being the second one, and he was impressive as well. Though with Hayes, you know, the shop blocking and the rim running is awesome to see. Still, like, this is the difference between him and Clark. Hayes is still years away from being like a super positive contributor because he doesn't have those instincts, the ability to read the floor on defense, whereas Clark is already there.

Hayes just has probably longer upside in the distant future. He's just so young and raw that he's not there yet. Well, I will tell you that David Griffin, president there said during their semi-final game, he was being interviewed, and he said, be honest with you, we took Jackson Hayes and we figured this would be a red shirt year. Yeah.

But he is much farther along and much better than we thought. Dude, and that's to me, like, what you're looking for in Summer League. It's a little bit beyond the results. It's more about how these guys are playing and how they look for him. And, like, everything I just said about, you know, his instincts that still aren't there. They're better than they were a couple months ago. I know it. I mean, his body looks better.

His reactions look quicker. Everything about Jackson Hayes looked better on both ends of the floor. So when you factor in the athleticism and everything else, how that manifests for him on the floor, he does look like a guy that's going to deserve minutes as a rookie. So it's going to be exciting. even more exciting to watch that athletic, fast Pelicans team this coming season.

They're going to be high up the league past rankings alongside the bright future Grizzlies. All right. So that puts a bow on Summer League. We got to get into this Westbrook stuff, Kev, because I, oh, I love this so much. Oh, it's crazy. I love this.

So a week ago, when we did the mess match, I said to watch out for the Rockets, you and I had both been at Bill Simmons live podcast at Caesars. Me and Mark Titus were sitting with Darrell Moray and his daughter. There. Now, I did not have any inside information from sitting next to Darrell, but I opined that him getting into the conversation about having huge stars on your team and his infatuation with stars and the fact that he went on this.

rant talking about how you cannot overpay. He was really ranting up there. Yeah, you cannot overpay the best players. Like, stop it already, because when people talk about, oh, this contract's impossible or this guy is so overpaid, like, these are the best players in the world, and those are not the ones that we need to be talking about are the ones that are overpaid. And just listening to it, I know he has Paul on his team, it also felt like a just for Westbrook, who had been the subject of people saying, oh, he's one of the worst contracts

in the league, and this guy's contract's terrible, and yada, yada, yada. Well, now, Darryl, who was once dubbed Dork Elvis by Bill Simmons and is a beloved figure in the analytics community, the guy who started the Sloan conference, no less, the anti. What does Bill Simmons call? Sloan, the Dork Palooza? Yeah, Dorkapalooza. Dorkapalooza, yeah. So I love this, I love this so much because now you see people changing their tunes on Westbrook because Daryl acquires him. He has been the whipping boy.

And he is like the anti-analytics community guy, right? He is, and in fact, they are polar opposites, both Hardin and Westbrook. And when that argument came to be just a few years ago for the MVP, you saw people drawing lines in the sand. I find it hilarious to see the change in tune a little bit on Westbrook and kind of like, hey, he's still one of the greatest players in the world. And if you got to do it, you got to do it. It wasn't that long ago. Westbrook was a losing player on the worst contract in the history of history, who got fake rebounds and can't shoot and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now it's like, oh, well, you're still a great player.

And, man, imagine if this could work with James Harden. If you can, take a step back. You've been an anti-Westbrook guy, too. Do you feel like you've been stabbed in the back by Darrell Morey? Yeah, I'm currently bleeding out right now, Chris. However, let me take a step back and say this. So with Russell Westbrook, for years, I've written the article like five times since being hired at the ringer. The second article I ever wrote was titled The Russell Westbrook roadmap.

And it was about how Westbrook's flaws pull Oklahoma City back from reaching their ceiling. It holds Billy Donovan back from running his more motion-based offense than he would prefer to run. And the point of that article and the others that I've written since then, the conversations we've had, Chris, is to say that Westbrook, his weaknesses are easily improvable. He's somebody who just needs to commit to cutting off ball, just needs to commit to trying on defense, somebody who can, you know, maybe he won't be able to prove his shot,

but I hope he can. He hasn't, and that's unfortunate, but there's other things that he can do to improve his game. With that said, the point of it was that Russell Westbrook is already a great player despite these flaws. And so for Oklahoma City, trading Westbrook is unfortunate. They got a great haul for him as it did for Paul George, but for Houston, it's a win because Westbrook raises their ceiling over Chris Paul.

I still think Chris Paul can play, and I think he's going to show that with OKC, perhaps to raise his trade value. But there's no doubt that Westbrook offers higher upside for the Houston Rockets. And Mori has always been a guy that's about variance. And that's really one of the perks of the three-point shooting. Sometimes you have an 0-4-27 stretch, but you can also have a 20-for-27 stretch. and that can help win you games in the playoffs. So Westbrook, he's such an odd fit because his off-ball shooting is still not good.

But what he can provide that team is variety, Chris. I think his speed and transition will be a change from what we normally see with this Houston team that likes to slow it down. His half-court playmaking, somebody who can create for others, he may not be a great three-point shooter himself, but he can create for others.

And I think with Westbrook, that element will add some much-needed change within Houston's offense. They're still going to be heavy, heavy with high pick and roll, and they're going to stagger Westbrook and Hardin. But Westbrook's style is a bit different, and I think that could be really, really good for them. With that said, though, Chris, the flaws are still there. When Hardin has a ball in his hands, Westbrook is going to have to be used

maybe a bit more as a screener, going to have to cut more. He's going to have to do those things that he hasn't been willing to do for years. And maybe the change of scenery will help him. I'm not totally optimistic about that. But for Houston, I do think it's an upgrade in terms of your upside. There's more downside, too. Westbrook has always been a losing star player. He's the worst elite point card in the NBA.

That's bullshit, by the way. Why? Because, look, here's the thing. Why? When do your stats matter most? When do your stats matter most? There's the playoffs. In the playoffs.

Okay. Interestingly enough, I will tell you that, you know what? and I'll even throw out Hardin's Oklahoma City playoffs to not depress his numbers. Okay? Come on now. Russell Westbrook playoffs, 41% from the field, 30% from three, 25 points, 8 assists, 7 rebounds, 2 steals. James Hardin, in the playoffs, 41% from the field, 32% from 3, 28, 7, and 6. Mr. Efficient has the same friggin numbers as Russell Westbrook?

How was that possible? You're using field goal percentage, dude. Oh, for Westwood. Give me a great. Has a 51% true shooting percentage in the postseason. Hardham has a 58% true shooting percentage in the postseason. Hardin is far more efficient. It's undeniable.

Undeniable. Undeniable. And by the way, by the way, it worked with Houston. It worked with Hardin and Paul. They didn't win the championship. He got a better team. Huh? He had a better team.

And he's got a better team. And he's got a better coach. All I'm saying is, is it worked with Hardin and Paul. It worked. They nearly beat Golden State. Well, and I'm going to tell you this. I got a chance. And I would encourage people to check this out a big good chance.

Woj got Mike Dantone to sit down, D'Antony. Did you hear this by any chance? Have you heard this yet? No. Okay. He did this wide-ranging interview. And he asked every, like, pertinent question. It was great.

I listened to this. There is not. no doubt in my mind. I say this with 100% certainty. He did not want to do this and he loves Chris Paul and wishes he still had Chris. There's no doubt in my mind. Listen, he's going to say I'm going to have the same enthusiasm and we're going to figure this out and blah, blah, blah, you know, he's the nicest guy in the world. But I've covered a million different coaches. I feel like I can read between the lines when they're saying things. He talked about how he thinks that Chris Paul can play at an extremely high level for three or four more years.

I agree. And he would have liked to have run it back. And there were two things that I took out of that. Number one, he didn't want this trade. Number two, he's not happy at all about Jeff Bezdelic and that staff being overhauled. No doubt about that. You know what I'm saying? And obviously, he doesn't have a new contract yet either.

But it was very fascinating to listen because that's a guy that you could tell is a massive Chris Paul fan. And I think he knows, you know, Westbrook does have the same kind of, if a guy punches me, what is my reaction? Do I go into a ball or do I turn into an animal? And all of a sudden, I'm trying to, it's kill or be killed. And Paul's got that. He's got that. And I think it offset Harden in many cases. And we will see how it offsets him with Westbrook. But he was going on about how, you know, what a smart player Chris is and what Chris brought to the table and how good he thinks Chris is going to be for multiple years down the road and how they were really close. And I just, I don't know, man, I got done listening to it thinking, geez, he's going to make

this work. He's going to do what he can. But he absolutely wishes that all these changes didn't happen and that they could just run it back. You know, in regards to Chris Paul, people have dubbed him a Elbatross contract. And I would agree with that in the sense that he, $38 million will be getting paid well over $40 million when he's in his mid-30s, late 30s even. However, I think with that title untradable contract, it seems to suggest that he's washed up. He is not. Chris Paul is not washed up without Hardin on the floor this past season.

He still averaged around 23 points and 12 assists per 36 minutes. he still produced on a permanent basis when the ball was in his hands. And I think that'll show in Oklahoma City playing alongside a young player in Shaggildas Alexander. And perception of him will shift back towards what it was before. The problem is with that deal is there's so few teams that are able to trade for a contract so large. And there are so few teams that even need a point guard, never mind a point guard that's so old that's so expensive. That's what makes him an untradable slash albatross contract. not necessarily his production level.

Maybe he'll play himself into a guy showing that he can do it on a full-time basis with Oklahoma City there and then they can maybe flip him to Miami or something like that during the season. I just wanted to make that clear about Chris Paul. He's not washed up yet. So I agree with Dan Tony that he still has years left to be a productive point guard. But I think for Dan Tony, I'm sure the source of his frustration more than anything else is the fact that he lost his entire coaching staff. Mori fired that entire staff. And it's very unusual for management to clean out the entire staff besides the head coach.

Seems to suggest that perhaps in Tony's time in Houston may not be long. Yeah, and you've got that hanging over. You've got a team that's got to figure it out quick, a team that had trouble, you know, figuring it out quick with obviously the Carmelo thing was a disaster. And they started last season, you know, 11 and 14 or whatever it was. and they had to meet Golden State in the second round instead of what should have been the Western Conference finals, I think, by most people's estimation. And I don't know, man, like you've got that hanging out there.

You've got the whole Westbrook and Hardin thing and how is this going to work together? You've got these players who have posted the two highest usage rates, you know, like in the history of the game playing on the same team. I will say this for in Westbrook's defense, and I've mentioned this many times, as before. Paul George was having as good a year as he's ever had playing alongside him and was playing at an MVP level. We know Kevin Durant won an MVP playing alongside Russell Westbrook. And so the idea that, hey, this guy who is a selfish player who has this high usage and whatever is a detriment to the elite player by his side, that is, that's not fair at all. And in fact, the evidence

suggest to the contrary because he commands so much attention. And that's the fascinating. Like, what is the ceiling on a Hardin season? You wouldn't expect it could be greater, but we know the attention that Russell Westbrook commands. And we know that James Hardin can knock down threes. And Russell Westbrook gets you open threes. Now, the failure of Oklahoma City was he was never surrounded by just a bunch of guys that could knock down threes. But the guys that could, the Paul George's, the Kevin Durantz, those guys, they had pretty unbelievable seasons playing alongside him. And so I suppose it's possible. It would be hard to imagine him having an even better season, but I am infinitely fascinated as to how this could work out.

I mean, it'll fail when Westberg starts jacking up mid-range jumpers with 18 seconds on the shock clock in the playoffs. That's when it will fail. But prior to that, during the regular season and however long their run goes, for as long as Westbrook avoid some of those just brain fart decisions, it is possible that he could greatly help James Hardin. Because for Hardin, like I said earlier, Hardin and Chris Paul works. It just worked together. They had great success in the regular season. They had great success in the postseason.

It just did not result in a championship. But those guys just didn't like each other. That's undeniable. They just didn't like each other. And on the court, that manifested in like they rarely passed to each other. and that led to Hardin only attempting 70 catch-and-shoot-three-point jumpers compared to 943 three-point shots off the dribble. Just an insane disparity between those two.

943 pull-ups compared to 70 catch-and-shoot-threat threes. Is that true? That is true. Holy hell. I know. It is just ridiculous. And Hardin is a great three-point spot-up shooter in the past with OKC. He was a great cutter.

And I hope that's what we see the dynamics between Westbrook and Hardin. Because Hardin is one of the guys who pushed for this trade. It's been reported by others that he was under the real forces behind trying to recruit Westbrook, trying to get Morey to make a deal. I had heard prior to this all happening that Hardin may have gone as far to request a trade if Paul weren't traded. And obviously Darrow would never have traded James Hardin. But that's what I had heard.

That's how far they're discontented. with each other went that Paul wasn't happy with Hardin and Hardin was not happy with Chris Paul. So that was an extra motivator from working to make this deal. And Westbrook and Hardin like each other. They've known each other for many, many years since before they were both in NBA or even in college. And they had success together in Oklahoma City. And so I have confidence that these guys are going to be able to figure it out, just like Paul and Hardin did. They learned how to coexist.

But Hardin and Westbrook actually like each other. And maybe that'll lead to more spot-up opportunities for Jamesville. James Harden, in addition to just his elite ability to score on the dribble, maybe we're going to see more of it off ball now. I really feel like it's either going to be unbelievable or it's going to be a disaster. It's very little circumstance that it's just okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're right. Like, this can implode or they're going to be, they're going to quickly become the favorite.

Well, and you wonder if it's if it's Hardens last stand on this stuff because, they filtered through. They filtered through coaches, Kevin McHale, Dwight. To me, it's Westbrook's heart last stand. I don't think so. This is Westbrook's chance to show that he can change and evolve, that he can adapt. He has not done it.

The only thing he's really adapted at in the NBA, and he deserves a lot of credit for this, is becoming a star playmaker. He was not that at UCLA, and he became one in the NBA. But beyond that, after he's reached his level of start, and we've not seen him adapt, becoming a more active off-ball player,

becoming a more consistent defender. or becoming a better shooter. This is his opportunity in a new system next to James Harden and just a drastically different system that he's ever played in before to show that he can evolve his shot selection, limiting those early mid-range pull-ups

that he's always had, that there's always been so frustrating and a negative towards his own team. If he can eliminate those, he doesn't need to cut once during the whole season, but if he's able to eliminate those early-clock pull-ups from two, it's a successful season for him, period. And this is why it drives me crazy with the way we talk about Russell Westbrook.

It's always about what he doesn't do. Like, if he did this, he's the perfect fucking player. Like, he's the perfect player. It goes without saying what he does well. He's a star, man. He's really, really good. He's one of the best point cards of the decade. But he has these easily improvable weaknesses.

But when people talk about James Hardin, they don't talk about how Kevin McHale's gone and Dwight Howard's gone and now Chris Paul's gone. And when it comes to the playoffs, he, vomits all over himself. Yeah, but the vomiting part is just BS. And yet every time Russell Westbrook comes up, it's like, he doesn't cut off screens, and he doesn't do this, and he doesn't do this, he averages a freaking triple double. Yeah, because everybody knows he vomits over himself in the postseason. Westberg is vomiting over himself for years in the postseason.

Oh, for goodness sake. Holding back Kevin Durant back in the OKC days. Holding back! With his poor, yeah. Holding back! Did you watch the games? Clearly not. Clearly not.

When you're saying James Harmon vomit over himself when he had an unbelievable series against the Golden State freaking warriors. Oh my God. He didn't have, listen,

he's got a team without Durant on his home court, on his home court. And then he has a game seven. He's got two games to do it. Two games to be the man. The other guy's out. When it mattered most,

who showed up? Steph Curry. Steph Curry showed up. He got to face. the Warriors, when KD got hurt, dead to right, he had the spurs on his home court and got beat by a thousand

a few years ago. Stop it already. Yeah, he stunk that game. No doubt about it. He did. He didn't. You're right. You're right.

That one. The one that really mattered is the one they stunk in. But he did average generally 30 points per game. Yeah, great. With solid efficiency in seven games

against the Golden State Warriors, a team that went on to win the championship. Here's what Daryl knows. He needs. somebody that's built for it a real alpha. And he just tried to improve Paul, because Paul was there when it, Paul's the one that's going to fight and clutch and grab while James Harden is twiddling his thumbs at the

half court line. And Westbrook, listen, they'll either win or lose. And it'll be because of Westbrook, trust me. And I suppose it'll come down to whether he cuts off the bowl or not. Guy average is a freaking triple double for God's. You know, it's so funny to me that you're like bashing hard and Hardin and that. Warrior series that I'm referencing, this is the 2018 semis, the series where Chris Paul got hurt in game five, I believe, and missed the last two games. Hardin in that series had a 49.2

true shooting percentage, which is not good, but it's pretty comparable to Westbrook's playoff career, 51% true shooting percentage, who you're saying Harden, vomited over himself that series. Well, apparently Westbrook in every playoff round, on average, has vomiting over himself on the offensive end of the floor in terms of his shooting efficiency. So, Hardin, man. Like, he was... His shooting efficiency. Like, are we just going to act

like he doesn't do all the other stuff or not? What other stuff? I just want to hear you say it. We're going to act like he doesn't rebound. We're going to act like he doesn't get assist. We're going to act like... Are you saying Hardin does it pass the ball or rebound? What I'm saying, Kevin,

is this guy brings a ton to the table. I know. I'm not saying Westbrook sucks. You go back to what he doesn't do. Westbrook's a really good player. It's so hard for anybody to talk about him. it's unbelievable. It's always about what he doesn't do.

Dude, I'm sitting here telling you, Westbrook is a great player. He is a great player. He is one of the best playmakers in the league, and that's what makes him such an exciting fit in Houston now when he has better spacing that he's ever had before, better shooters around him,

perhaps than he's ever had before. Now, do what you want to do. That's what makes it so exciting. Do what you want to do. It's driving you crazy. Do what you want to do. But, now, go. Go ahead and shit on him for five minutes.

The flaws go right alongside the pros, dude. They do. It's a fact. Just like for James Hardin, for years, he was a major liability on the defensive end of the floor. It mattered. The flaws matter. Just like the positives do.

Hardin has improved his effort as a defender. That's a good thing. It's a good thing. Like, he's still not great, but he's improved. For Westbrook, like, you still want to see him improve some of those weaknesses. And hopefully in Houston that happens. so we can see a great player, a truly great player, reach an even higher level.

That's all it's about. Seeing a great player reach an even higher level, that's all. That's all. That's all it's about. And so for Westbrook, some of these flaws that he's had in the postseason are so frustrating, Chris, because they are so easily improvable.

That's what's long bothered me. When he's shooting teams out of games with those careless pull-ups early in the clock, that's frustrating. Just don't do it. That's it. Look for the past. And maybe in Houston,

maybe in Houston we has more driving lanes to get to the rim, throw down dunks or lay the ball up or kick it out for threes. Maybe we will see those mid-range jumpers eliminated. Maybe playing alongside his buddy and James Harden will help him. And I hope so much that that's what we see. Because for Westbrook, that's been my long source of frustration with him, that he is this great player that I just want to love Chris. I want to love Russell Westbrook.

And maybe I will love him in Houston. I hope to. I love this. This is tormenting all the Westbrook haters, because you're either a hard guy or a Westbrook guy. Everybody's been that way. By the way, and I feel everything I just said, I feel like it'll sound funny coming for me,

but has Westbrook become underrated? I feel like the hate for him has gone too far where you're telling me that I'm focusing on the negatives. Well, and now, now. I feel like on social media, calling him an untradable contract is a bit silly to me. Westbrook is still a great player.

No, everybody's opinion's going to change now that their King Darrell got him. Everybody's got to change course. He was the, now that the, basically the leader of the statistics revolution, the founder of the Sloan conference, took a giant dump, threw it in his hand and chucked feces on all of y'all by acquiring Russell Westbrook, who is the arch enemy of efficiency. I love it. I love this so much. It is pretty funny. It's hysterical.

The irony and why. watch and look at everybody changing course. It used to be able to be the whipping boy, but now that Darrell did it. He still is the whipping boy. Okay. People on social are questioning this deal about for Houston or questioning the fit,

questioning why Darrell did it. I feel like that's being the person that I've gotten from. All right. Here's the hottest take ever. You ready for this? Here's the hottest one. The last guy standing in Houston's going to be Westbrook. Dantone will be gone and Hardin will be gone.

That'll be the last. of this. What about Darry? I don't know. I don't know. Did it depend on how much those owners like him? That guy's an issue. We'll see. All right. We've got to take a quick break when we come back. The league has changed dramatically.

And you wrote in a super fascinating article that I want to ask you about regarding questions that you asked many executives around the league about how much the NBA has changed and how much it's changed significantly. just over the course of the past few weeks. We'll do that after these words. Today's episode of The Mismatch is brought to you by Express. Who doesn't love jeans? I wear jeans all the time.

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Today's mismatch is also brought to you by Google Fi. Doesn't it feel like most phone plans just weren't made with us in mind? Between bad coverage, paying too much for data you don't actually use, and crazy roaming charges? Google Fi is a phone plan by Google made with Facebook. features that people like you and I actually want. Features like free international roaming, so you never have to worry about calling up your provider to let them know you're going to be traveling, and three networks in one, so you can stay connected wherever you are from your home

to your office and everywhere in between. Google File works on your favorite smartphone so you don't have to switch phones to switch plans. In fact, it's as easy as just downloading the app, and you only have to pay for the data you use. Plus, with build protection, If you ever use a lot of data, your bill is capped at a reasonable amount. Learn more at phi.govul.com. That's fI.com. Switch to GoogleFi, a phone plan by Google. All right, Kev, so I mentioned your article that you wrote about how much the league is changing

and that you talk to all manner of people about this. You start off by talking about the thunder and what they got in return. And it made me think about a subject that I've thought about. a lot recently, which is it used to be five, ten years ago, if you traded a star level player in the league, you had virtually no chance of getting great return. Like, you almost always lost that deal. And what we have seen, at least in the past few weeks, whether it was the trade for Paul George, or even prior to that, the Anthony Davis trade, at least it feels like the insane amount of return gives the teams that move the stars the opportunity. And, oh, and I guess we could

throw Westbrook in there too, right? So you got the Paul George trade, you got the Westbrook trade, you got the Ante deavis trade. Obviously, you'd rather, if you're the team, have stars than what you gave up. But it feels like there is a real chance at the other team feasibly winning a trade now. And I think that you gathered from the people that you talk to around the league that the general consensus was the thunder and Sam Presti, though it was not a desirable position, did an unbelievable job getting returned. I guess I'll start with this. Do you think it was just an anomaly that you had this bizarre situation where, you know, Daryl needed to do something in Houston? And so, saw the opportunity to give Westbrook so he's able to give up tons of stuff.

And the clippers were really under the gun, felt like they weren't going to get Kauai by most accounts if they didn't get George. And so you just kept saying yes. And that L.A. you know, desperately in order to appease LeBron needed to make that move, they needed to get Davis there for this window. So are these all just rare circumstances that happen to have happened this past off season? Or is it possible that the new normal is getting massive return for a star? I think it's a couple of things, but primarily I would just say it's the players involved. It's as you said, Anthony Davis. He is one of the best big men that we have seen in his 20s.

So naturally, it would be a significant return for him, as it should be, in regards to Paul George going to the Clippers. For Oklahoma City, there's a bit of luck involved there and the fact that Quai Leonard did indeed desire a second star going there. I've heard that even the Lakers, as late as Friday night before he officially signed to the Clippers, thought that they were going to get them. I believe that Kauai Leonard may have told the Clippers,

if a second star doesn't come there, he's not going to go there. He'd go to the Lakers. So there was immense pressure on the Clippers to get a deal done, which gave Presti the amount of leverage necessary. to complete a trade. And for Russell Westbrook, you know, Chris Paul can still play, but he's, what, the 40th, 50th best player in the league, something like that? Russell Westbrook is a top 20 guy. So I think what they gave up to make that upgrade is a fair price to pay. So Oklahoma City, in the article, it's so interesting because every executive I talked to said the guys

they've talked to with Oklahoma City were unhappy about the deal. They were down. Sam Presti was disappointed that they had a rebuild now. But it's like every executive loves what Oklahoma City did. One guy in particular said to me that Kauai was the savior for the Oklahoma City Thunder in the sense that it gave Sam Presti an out. He was able to trade Paul George, which enabled him to trade Russell Westbrook without any backlash, without any concern or worry about how the deal would be perceived. Not necessarily that Sam Presti would worry about that, but the organization as a whole.

it became something that they had to do that they were doing with the rebuild. And now, you know, if Chris Paul gets sent to Miami, maybe they'll have to give up one of the Miami picks to get that done if it happens before the season begins. But they could potentially get some more in return on top of their whole pile of first-round draft picks over the next seven years,

15 first-round draft picks over the next seven years, including their own. It's ridiculous. So for OKC, Chris, man, like, I'm not sure it's anything, anything necessarily. that will translate into the future. In the article I wrote, someone mentioned to me that perhaps

Sam Presti's unhappiness with this has less to do with what he got because of the circumstances, more to do with the fact that you have Kauai recruiting Paul George Way, you have James Hardin recruiting Russell Westbroker Way. So it's another instance, another instance, especially

with L.A., of a small market player being lured away to a big market. And teams in the future, if this happens, may not be as fortunate as Oklahoma City was because of the circumstances that allowed them to get so much in return. So for Adam Silver and the NBA League office, it's going to be about figuring out how do you curtail tampering? How do you limit this? I'm not sure if there's any solutions. It's always been this way. I'm not sure exactly what you can do. But maybe, I don't know this for sure, but maybe that

that's one of the reasons why Sam was unhappy just because of how it happened rather than what they ended up getting in return for those guys. It's fascinating because one of the things, you know, things that you brought up was how team building is changing. And I know you and I over the years have been roundabout. And one of the reasons that I talk about my hatred of tanking beyond the sense of the people that work in the stadiums and the fans that live and die with the team, et cetera, et cetera, is that I do think that there is what we have seen over the course of the past several years is a different way of building. That now it used to be, in order to get great players, you needed to have high draft picks.

And for whatever reason, people have become worse at the draft, right? People become worse at the draft. And younger players coming into the league, just more variance. That's all it is. Well, that's not true. I think that's primarily what it is. The young of the guys coming to the league, that's confidence are in them. Well, look at the high school.

I mean, you had Garnett, you had Kobe, you had LeBron James. I mean, that's when high school kids were coming. busts as well, though. The younger the guys are, the harder it is to project them. I think that's probably true, but superstars are superstars. And we just haven't had as many in the last, I don't know, I went back to 2008. And I only went up to when, I'd say you have at least have four years in the league. So we go to the town's draft, okay? And if you take those, if you take 2008 through 15, that gives you eight drafts. If you just take the top five players, taken in each of those drafts. That's 40 players. 12 of those players have made an All-Star team,

12 of the 40. And you only have, I believe, four that are on the same team, which is insanity. I'm talking about that that are on the same team and made the All-Star team. John Wall and Brad Beale, M. Bede, and Towns. And I think that's it. That goes back to 08. That goes back to the Rozier. So, I mean, you now, you see everybody switching teams. And so I piggyback on that to tell you the tampering thing. And I feel like, and now I'm more involved with youth basketball than I ever have been because I have a son. My son's nine. There's not a time that we go to a gym that some adult doesn't come up and ask him who he's playing for or if he's playing AAU.

He's frigging nine, Kevin. Now, the kid can, he shoots a hell out of the ball and most nine-year-olds can't shoot. It's just like the NBA. Everybody needs a shooter, right? I've seen your Instagram stories. He can shoot it. Everybody needs a shooter. And that's what he can do.

He can shoot. But I'm talking about he's nine. And they approach him. Okay, number one, number two, guess what? We are not playing it yet. But all those kids, they're all putting together their own teams. I'm talking about it nine, nine. They're nine years old.

They're putting together their own teams. And then they do it at 10, and then they do it at 11. And then obviously all these AAU teams. We're seeing the total proliferation. We're seeing it at college, too. This Memphis Tiger basketball team that Penny Hardaway got, James Wiseman, who Kevin Clark has a great article about on the ringer.com today. How about that for a promo?

But James Wiseman was, by most accounts, the number one recruitment nation. When he signed, all of a sudden, all these other kids. started signing. And I'm talking about kids from New York, kids from California, kids from Florida, all over the globe. Like, they're forming their own team in Memphis, no less, to play for Penny Hardaway. And I think what we're seeing now is that these kids are, they're putting together their own teams starting at a very young age. And you can say that to trickle down from the NBA. And when those guys just decided to play together, But I do think now on the way up, that's what they're going to be used to.

Used to be you would just go to the high school that, you know, you were assigned to. And whoever was on the team was on the team. Like, that doesn't take place anywhere anymore virtually. Not if they're really good. It's kids that live in this district and this district and this district. And the private schools are all giving scholarships. And then they all sign up to go to the same college together. And then they get to the NBA and it's the first time.

that they've had to be told what team they can be on. And now the best ones have realized, I don't have to be told what team to be on now. And I think Porzingis, forcing his way out of New York, is probably only the beginning. I think you're going to see it starting earlier and earlier that if kids get drafted and they don't like the way shit's going after two years, they'll be like, you know, get me somewhere else.

So I don't know how this is going to be curtailed or stopped. but I think it is going to be the way it is. Yeah, Chris, in regards to the 12 out of 40 top five picks, the last 10 and 11 years, whatever it was, I'm becoming All-Stars, that's the value. That's a high percentage compared to other areas of the draft. That's what makes top picks valuable. However, like you said, players are leaving teams earlier.

Having a pick that you hit on is no longer a guarantee to have that guy for eight years, 10 years, 15 years. There's no guarantee of that, especially in today's day and age. And a couple weeks ago, my friend Malcolm and I were emailing back and forth about this. You know, he had mentioned how you have a higher percent chance with these high picks, but there's so much more uncertainty investing in high picks. And he made the point that in today's league, it is a better investment to invest in free agency where it is higher costs compared to picks, young players,

but it is also a very, very high level of certainty. this player will contribute to winning because with young players, it takes years for them to develop into an impact player if they ever develop into an impact player at all. And so maybe that's what we're seeing now with teams knowing that, even if you hit on a pick, it's going to take a couple of years for him to develop into a player. And by then, he might want out.

And he'll be more expensive because it'll be on a second or third contract. So I think we're seeing draft picks diminish and value in that sense, because younger players are coming into the league. So it is less certainty in their level of production and their future anyway. Never mind the nature of the game with players more willing to change teams, more willing to push their way out. And that may trickle down to younger and younger ages where we see a guy who signs like a five-year max deal demand a trade after two years.

And a team doesn't necessarily have to trade him. If Devin Booker or Carl Towns demand a trade from Minnesota or Phoenix, their general manager does not need to trade them if it's early in the deal. But expressing that level of discontent, you never know, it could work. Well, and we've seen it work more often than not. People don't typically want disgruntled players. But, I mean, we talked about the bright future teams a little bit earlier. Let's say just, all right, let's just say the Pelicans and let's say the Grizzlies,

two teams that showed very well in Summer League. What are the chances that John Morant, Jaron, Jaron Jackson, and Brandon Clark are on the same team for five years together. I mean, I'd love that. I'd love to hope that that's true, or that Nikiel Alexander Walker, Jackson Hayes, and Zion Williamson are on the same team for five years.

Like, I think 10 years ago, it was just, we thought, yeah, they're going to be on the same team together for a long time. But even James Hardin and Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook weren't on the same team for five years, you know? Like, that's the way it is now.

And with so much in flux, I do think there's a lot to think about regarding how we build teams. I think it has changed dramatically. And we just saw the whole league get turned upside down within three weeks. Yeah. To your point in regards to like these cores that were drafted, Westbrook, Hardin and Kevin Durant, that's sort of what's changed a little bit where the ideal has long been. And it still has the ideal.

It's just hard to pull off. The ideal has been you get these. higher risk prospects that are on cheaper deals that you hope develop into star players. And that is more of an efficient route to go rather than signing players or trading for players with assets who come with a higher cost, even though they have greater certainty and what they can do on the floor. And this offseason especially, we've seen teams just unload draft picks. And I think that's because of the level of the talent.

but maybe there's a bit more of a willingness to do that because picks do have less value. And some of those future picks, especially if the NBA does change the age limit from 19 to 18, which would allow high school players to enter the league, there'll be even more randomness within the draft. And that could make later picks a bit more valuable because there's less certainty up top guys can fall in the draft. Some of those star players from high school that you mentioned earlier ended up slipping. What did Kobe Bryant go? 11th?

13th. You have a lot of guys who have fallen from younger age. A lot of guys who fall, period. I don't want to create a narrative.

It's like old guys fall too. We're just talking about Brian Clark falling. Draymond Green, Jimmy Ballard, the list goes on. Malcolm Brogden, the list goes on and on and on.

But with that said, there will be more randomness in the draft if the age limit changes. So for teams that have those picks, they might just not want to deal with that. They may be more willing to unload those picks in the future,

knowing that the age limit will likely change. That's fascinating. That's fascinating. I had not really thought about the willingness to get rid of these picks because of how volatile the draft could be in years to come. But that's something well worth exploring, to say the least. Last thing I do want to ask you about, well, two things very quickly. Number one, in your article, there was a quote that I wrote down that particularly stood out to me.

And it was about the tampering stuff. And it was in regards to all this player movement. and it was an executive that said to you, nobody fears punishment from Adam. And the reason this stood out to me is because I would say Adam Silver's popularity rating is at like 98%, right? Fans, media, teams. Like, he is easily the most popular of the commissioners within their league. Almost nothing negative is ever said about him. And this was the first time that made me think, wow, there's at least one guy out there that thinks he's so nice.

Everybody loves him so much. But, and he used Goodell. Whoever you talk to, use Goodell as an example. Right. I was like, what, Gazelle? Yeah, well, say what you want. Like, a lot of people think Goodell's a prick, but people are scared to cross Godell or to break the rules. And so I guess the gist of the quote was, you're not really as scared to break the rules because.

and I quote, nobody's scared of Adam. When you heard that, what did you make of it? You know, that's a sentiment shared by a handful of executives I've talked to over the years that tend to think that Adam is more of a player's commissioner, which he is. And I think that's okay. I think Adam has done an extraordinary job as NBA commissioner. But I do think with that Lakers punishment, that was an opportunity for him to just lay down the law and say, like, tampering is not okay. to set a precedent beyond the monetary fine. I think Magic Johnson got fined, 50K for the Jimmy Kimmel thing,

and then the Lakers got fined, the 500,000, when it was discovered that Rob Polinka had tampered for Paul George with his agent Aaron Mintz. A lot of executives at the time thought that was a light fine. A lot of executives now, even after everything that happened, believe that what Silver should have done and could do if this happens again in the future, at that point is just removed first-round draft picks.

The next quote in that article was about how someone said, like, basketball operations is what needs to get hit. Like, it can't just be a fine. A fine doesn't make an impact. That nobody is afraid of that. If you're going to tamper and you get hit with a fine, which is already a slim chance because teams have to file charges for the league to investigate, and then it can be tough to even find that a team did indeed tamper. But if you do have a significant punishment, you may be a bit hesitant to even consider tampering. and somebody asked me, I think this quote went in there,

is I thought this was good. He said, would you ever run a red light if the penalty was two years in prison? And like, the answer is no, like you wouldn't. And he says, that's the point with tampering. Teams won't tamper as much if there's a significant penalty beyond a fine. So if teams are getting, if the Lakers had been punished with the removal of a first-round draft pick and or the inability to trade first-round draft picks for five years. For the next five years, they can't trade picks or whatever.

in that case, they wouldn't have been able to trade for Anthony Davis, and they would have been restricted in player movement in other regards, too, for mid-level players, never mind the star-level players if they weren't able to trade picks or they had picks removed. And teams, I think in that case, if the punishment were so significant, if tampering is indeed an issue that the league office seems to portray it as, I do think you need to make the punishment severe that does deter most teams, not all teams, most teams from egregious tampering,

where it is being reported and even lauded sometimes for teams doing what they do. Like, Kauai Leonard was not on a team when he recruited Paul George, which makes things difficult here. Like, how do you find a player? How do you punish a player when he's not actually on a team? It's a tough rule, but I do think the executives who support harsher punishments for tampering are onto something, that there needs to be fear in their eyes from breaking that law, breaking that rule.

overall, Adam's done a great job, but that's one thing. I think if Adam were to heavily punish a team, I think he would still have super positive reviews from fans, from players. I think it would just be like, whoa, he's getting serious now. There's a little bit of stern in him, but he would still be loved as a commissioner, especially over Roger Goodell, who's a clown. All right. Last thing.

You got that in there. Last thing, yes or no, would you have given Ben Simmons the extension? I say yes. Of course. Okay. Then we agree. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. That was easy.

We end on agreement. I'll catch up with you next week. Hey, see you later, Chris. That was fun. Thanks to everybody for listening to another episode of The Mismatch. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, five stars, five stars, and we will talk to you next week.