The Ringer NBA Show - The Beginning of the End for the Warriors and Unpacking the In-Season Tournament Group Winners | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

Logan and Raja discuss the Golden State Warriors getting eliminated from the in-season tournament after blowing a 24-point lead against the Sacramento Kings and what this game says about the current state of both teams (2:17). Next, they dissect each of the eight teams that made it out of the group stage, breakdown the matchups, and share their thoughts on how the in-season tournament has elevated play across the board (20:04). Finally, the guys close with their Real Ones of the Week (56:15). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if everyone said they heard your trailer a hundred times? You'd probably make a new one. I'm Justin Sales, the host of The Wedding Scammer, the ringer's first ever true crime pod. We've been hunting a con man for a few weeks now, and our hunt is coming to an end. Schemes, Heartbreak, How to Put On a Wire. We've covered all this and more, but there are still a few surprises left. Binge the Wedding Scammer wherever you get your podcasts. What's popping?

Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bill there. Real ones Thursday edition. So you know we don't know what the hell we're doing. Raja, you had some complaining prepod. Do you want to at least share what the hell is going on? Tell me what you want to share because we had a paywall pot like maybe 30 seconds ago. And it's just like let's just get to it. What's going on that she would like to share?

I don't really want to share it, but you're putting me on the spot. I just said I got there's a lot going on as a, as a. You know, there's a lot going on over here, man. I got people putting up Christmas lights today. Like, I'm not good at any of the electrical stuff or on ladders. So there are people putting them up, but all of my breakers were kind of out. And I just, I don't have any electrical background. So I'm running around trying to figure out how to, you know, handle the breakers and whatnot.

Then, you know, just, you know, in a home, there's shit. There's a leak in an apartment. It's got a little mold. I get somebody here to do the mold. There's more water damage than they thought. So the estimate is ripped up. And now I'm arguing with the H. way over whose responsibility is if the roof was leaking.

I don't own the goddamn roof. I don't own the roof in an apartment, right? Like, it's your roof. So we're going back and forth. So, hey, there's a lot. I mean, I didn't want to get into it, but thank you. That's kind of, you know, is therapeutic.

It's cathartic. Yeah, thank you. You feel good. You're welcome, man. All right. So let me just talk about my week. Since we had motherfucking back on for motherfucking Mondays, I have, you know, I've gone and peruse the NBA landscape.

And I know we talked about this team. in the beginning of this week, but I don't have any much else to talk about that really tickles our fancy. So let's just get to it. I was at the Kings Warriors game on the Tuesday for the playing. And, Raja,

I don't know what it's like for you, but for me, when you just see a team fall from grace in front of your eyes, it's a pretty daunting experience. Right? Would you just, it always,

it's not like it's a, surprised that it's happening, but it always comes within a game where you're expecting one thing and another thing happens. The Warriors are up 24 points. Look like they were rocking and rolling. You know when the Warriors go on those runs where it convinces you that they're back for whatever stretch? That's what happened. And then the Kings just, they came back and they just, it seemed like a changing of the guard, Roger. It really did from like a NorCal standpoint, from an NBA standpoint. It just feels like

one, a lot of demons were being exercised from Sacramento perspective and then the Warriors. I've never seen a locker room with that shell shock before afterwards. It was very wild experience. Let's just get into it. When you were watching on television

and when you saw the things, did you see what I saw as in terms of the changing of the guard and where we are as an NBA of like just a Titan just finally being just taken down to size? I don't think it came across on TV probably the way it did in person. That's not to say that watching it, you didn't feel like a slight shift, you know, in the power dynamic.

But I don't think it was maybe as visceral as it would have been if I were in the building and in the locker room after the game, saw the faces of the, you know, of the reigning power and all their defeat after the game. Like I think that would have had much more of an impact on me. But watching it, it just highlighted some of the things that we talk about. And, you know, I've been saying this from the jump with that team. We were saying it last year. It highlights the Achilles heel, which is age.

And the youth that you do have, not having taken the step for one reason or another, into the stratosphere or player that you would need them to be to continue to keep that window open. And, you know, I don't really know where they go from here because if you look at all of these dynasties, Like, it's really hard when you're in a dynasty and your experience in the level of success that, quite frankly, classifies you as a dynasty to not reward the people that have been a huge part of that. And in those rewards, typically, it's a little past expiration date. And so, I mean, I don't know any that have had seamless transition from one dynasty to another

within like a two-year window. I mean, forgive me. But off the top of my head, it usually the franchise kind of falls apart for a little while. and then they kind of build their way back up. So I guess what I'm saying is, is like, I don't know how you do it because I've never seen it done. The transition from, hey, this dynasty,

move a bunch of pieces, you know, keep the engine that drives it and then you're right into another dynasty. So like I think you're seeing them hold on to pieces that they want to reward for past performance and achievement, you know, keeping them in the building, trying to keep the core together because of the feelings that they all have and the relationships.

And that's not going to continue to win basketball games as they all get older and longer in the two. Steph's still doing his thing. I mean, Steph's still great, but I mean, Father time catches up with everybody. Like, how long does Steph have to be able to, like, will you to wins? Yeah. When all else fails.

I don't have the answer to that. I want to also get the perspective, because if you guys want to, like, hear our opinions on the Warriors, go buy our old album, which is on Monday. But one of the things, though, that I did have an, a great observation on. And we didn't talk about it a lot. And I got a,

I got to, I got to apologize because I got a lot of shit in Sacramento because during our up and coming, our up and coming segment a few weeks back, we didn't bring up Sacramento.

And honestly, that was a my bad. I think it was right. I thought it wasn't my bad. What? We didn't bring it up. Up and coming, dude,

they've been here. A team to watch and get ready to take the next step. I didn't include Sacramento in that conversation. But in fairness, I mean, in fairness to you, can I be fair to you? Would you mind if I'm fair to you?

Appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, I'll take that. I mean, I think they're, they don't necessarily, I think they fit into another category, which is like, you know, they're not, I mean, they're already here. They just, they do have to take another step, but like they're on the mat. This isn't like something that's coming out of nowhere that's surprising. Like, they're a really good damn team. Had Golden State on the, on the ropes last year, like. You've been in Sacramento enough to know that they take slights about everything.

You know this. You know how it makes it a great place to play ball. I can dig that. Exactly. you know what? They would have loved you. They would have loved you in Sacramento. They would have loved watching your game.

They would have, if the Kobe rivalry thing happened with you in a Sacramento King's uniform, I think you would have been goaded for sure. But anyways, there was a sense when I was, you know, over the summer with the King, specifically towards the Warriors,

but also at the NBA at large, they felt like they had too much reverence for Golden State. Like, we thought about them too much as big brothers. we thought of them as too much of the team that we looked up to that it affected our play in the postseason, right? And I get why. Like a lot of their assistants or former Golda State guys,

Mike Brown's a former assistant coach. What is it like when you have, when you're, you're no longer just like scared at a big bad wolf anymore? Like when do you get to that point? Because I kind of saw that in the win on Tuesday night where they're like, it was a psychological,

effect that the Warriors had on them. And I remember going into the game on Tuesday and a lot of the local media were like, you know, this is the biggest game that we've had since Game 7. One of the biggest games we have of this era because we need to prove to ourselves that we can beat this team. No, it doesn't matter that it's a Tuesday in November, right? We need to beat this team. What is that like when you're a young team up and coming like the Kings are and trying to

get to that next step and not trying to just be a first round? round out, a tough first round out, you're trying to build more. What is a psychological approach to a game like Tuesday where you feels like you're exercising those demons? Yeah, that's an interesting question. Off the top, I don't know how many teams I played on that would have been in a situation like that. I was blessed to be on some really good teams and they typically had a lot of guys that had

been there and done that. And some of the younger teams I was on weren't ready to take that step. we were bad so you weren't in that situation where you were necessarily trying to exercise demons with the team and take them over but I guess I could relate it to like any any you know as a as a young basketball player who had a very athletic dad um who played basketball late into his 50s you know coming up you know I revered my dad he was my hero like he still is and so as I started to grow into my own and I was now six four and I'm bigger and stronger. And that fun, like, hey, man, I know I think I can beat you,

but out of deference and respect, maybe I don't beat you dynamic. Like, that's what I think you're talking about. And then my first year back from college, it was like, no, bro, I'm beating you every time. Like, that's just what this is going to be. The dynamic has changed. So you just get to that point where you feel like the shift, everyone, everyone knows it now. know it now. I know it now. And maybe that comes with, and I'm just speculating again, because as a team, I haven't been in that

situation, but it might take the game against my dad where I knew I could beat him and I didn't beat him and me saying to myself, or you just kind of let him have that. Like, it takes the series like that. And I think that's what you're talking about with Sacramento, which is, man, we had them dudes, man, and we just, we just for whatever reason let him live. And the real realization of that, that shit is ours. Like, we don't have to be ashamed of that.

This is the natural order of things now, man. This is the cycle of life. This is mine now. You know, I had that in the NBA, too, with different players. Like, it had been my vets, you know? And then you, look, all due respect and reverence for dudes, taught you the ropes. Like, you were their young buck.

And then you're on another team. And you're like, no, this ain't the relationship anymore, Pottna, like, you got to see me. With all due respect. Like, it doesn't have to be. be disrespectful. But again, that's the circle of life. And I think that's what you're talking about. And so what probably happened

was they got back. They watched some film. Everybody harbored whatever feelings they had about it. And then the tape probably confirmed what a lot of them thought was like, bro, that shit wasn't them beating us. We beat ourselves. And when you

can feel like that, and you look at them and you're like, there's no fear. Look at that. That's us. That's not them. Look at game three. Look at game four. Like, that's us again, over and over again. That's not them. That's us.

When you feel like that, whether it's true or not, is not what I'm here to say. But when you feel like that watching the tape, you like, nah, bro, that's a rap. It says, this is me now. What do you think about when you see a guy like Darren Fox, who seems to be coming into his own? It's also wild. Like, this dude who was not necessarily maligned, but it just looked like when he first got it to the league was a talented guy, but was it seemed to be in a string of a lot of talented guys that go to die in a place like Sacramento, right? But now, like, he's an MVP candidate.

He's putting up great numbers. He's not just the super fast, you know, John Wall type of player, right? Where he's just, you know, like he's just not just that. Now he's putting a team on his back, a city on his back, a region on his back. What do you see when you see him play? I see development. I see development. Like a lot of guys come into the league as super,

fast players that will rely on that super fast twitch and speed to produce for them. And sometimes the development of overall skill set, basketball IQ, understanding of time, you know, score, situational basketball, all of that kind of gets lost in the sauce because I know I can beat you with these physical attributes. I see a player who has developed. A ton of credit to him, what he does in his offseason, the commitment that he's made to to becoming an all-around, like, phenomenal player to marry with that, with that athleticism. Also, you have to give a shout out to Sacramento and the functionality of an organization that, quite

frankly, hadn't been functional in a long time. What was the rep post-Weber, Bibby in, like, the golden, like, not the golden age at all, but, like, what was that like when they were on the downturn, say from, like, 05 to, like, three or four years ago? I don't think they had a rep. Which is worse. I mean, real talk. Like, I don't think there was, they weren't really a thought. You know, if they came in and handed dudes a bag that you weren't going to get anywhere else and probably blew you off the table,

or if they were some dudes, like, only option, like, probably. But I don't know that anyone was looking at them like, yo, man, I would love to land in Sacramento. Like, I could see myself in Sacramento, not as a town, but just as an, as an organization and what they had going on, or I guess I should say what they didn't have going on was not attractive, you know, as a destination. You know, it is a business, though, so dudes are going to sign. If you can entice them to come, you know,

and get what they ordinarily wouldn't get somewhere else. You go sign players. There are only so many jobs, you know what I mean? So, like, boys are going to sign there. But I don't think they had to do this beat in sack real quick. Yeah, straight out. Like, guys, we're going to sack. But I don't, I don't think they were, you know,

I think they were kind of irrelevant in terms of, of, you know, destinations that NBA players would be interested in going to when they were free agents. It's so interesting, though, to bring it back to Fox and Subonis, it's so interesting what players and player mindsets can do for a franchise, right? Like, it can do for an organization, like with their habits, right? Like, you know, you think about, you know, even to bring it back to what we're talking about beginning with Steph, like the singular player that can change culture. what is required out of like those types of players right where it's one thing to have a game and we talked about this with Jordan pool like earlier this season as well right where you have it's what you're about to go into with an organization and the tools that you need to be able to to switch an organization from a mindset standpoint what does a player have to have aside from his or her game to be able to drive culture while also getting better as a basketball player

because there's a balance to that. You could be a great Hooper, but not a great franchise leader. Yeah, I think it starts with good people. You know, it always makes things easier when your best player, you know, is a really good person. And then if you start adding layers to, like, being a good person, like if he's a great worker,

and he's set in the tone in the building for what, you know, a random day in the offseason should look like, if he's the guy driving that or, you know, one of the first guys to the table driving that type of stuff, like that, that's always really helpful. So he's setting a tone with the way he works. He's good with his teammates because he's a great person. You know, he's inclusive in a way that when he's got stuff going on, like he's not this me. I'm about my brand singularly focused person.

Yeah, you can have your brand, but you also understand that their responsibilities to include. and take, you know, take some of your teammates alone for the ride with you, not just on the court, right, but off the court socially, you know, maybe even endorsement-wise and stuff like, like, those are all things that ingratiate you to teammates. I think it's also important, like, that there's a clear delineation of, like, of roles and power. You know, it helps when you've got a young guy like that and you don't have two other young guys like that that are in a same stratosphere, all vying for whose team this is going to ultimately be. So he can kind of feel that that's his role, grow into that role. The pieces

around him understand that's his role. And then they fit into their roles and try to be the best versions of themselves and those. But generally speaking from that top guy, man, like just obviously a hell of a player, but just a class act of a person, hardworking dude who drives culture, holds himself accountable, isn't afraid, you know, for a coach to come in there and and hold him accountable in front of his team in a way that that gets equity with everyone else in the building that if they mess up, they'll be held accountable too.

You know, so like a guy that just gets it, man. And there's a lot that goes into that, Logan. That's why not every, you know, the leagues existed for how long? I don't know. 77, 76 years? Right. And there are 30-some teams. And you've only had a, like, you know,

they come around, but they're not always around. They're hell of teams out there right now that don't have a franchise guy. Yeah. Do you know, that's because it's rare. It's a rare thing to get all those things in one person. Yeah. It's so interesting, man. But, you know, I hope that, you know, the kings get exactly, you know, what they want in this.

Let's take a quick break. And I want to talk some in-season tournament. Cash it on bawling out this NBA season with FanDuel, America's number one sports book. Right now, new customers can get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 money line bet. that's $150 if your team wins. Let's look at the slate. You know how I am.

Let's go with Lakers Thunder, the over under. I think I'm going to take the over. Jazz Timberwolves. Look at the money line. I'm going to take the under on that. Let's go with Clippers Warriors. That's going to be a fun one in Chase Center.

No defense is going to be played there. Going to take the over. If you've been thinking about joining a fan duel, there's no better time to join. The app is easy to use and there's a wide range of ways to bet, including quick bets, live, same game parlays, the parlay hub. and more.

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See terms at sportsbook. FanDuel.com. Hello, Logan. It is I, Rob Harvilla, your podcast nemesis. We, of course, share a producer. We share Kermm. And I have spent the last year terrorizing Kermm in various ways. So you are definitely his favorite right now, Logan, but that, of course, only makes me

angrier. I will have my revenge. And my beloved Cleveland Cavaliers will have their revenge, too, for getting the boot from this mid-season tournament situation nobody gives a shit about, because the calves are going to win when it actually matters. Please say hi to Kerm for me and tell him. I'm sorry. Okay.

I'll get you for this. Thank you. And we are back. Let's talk in season tournament. Huh? Dude, why are you so like perky about that? Why are you so?

Because I get to see my bud. This is a great way to say. This is a great way to say that I will be seeing Roger for the first time next week at Jimmy Kimmel Theater. Rollins. Pull it up. Let's go. that's pretty crazy that we haven't officially met.

Isn't that wild? That's pretty crazy. I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to the quick trip. I mean, hopefully there's a reason for me to get back real, real quickly to South Florida. But I'm looking forward to it.

Okay. I mean, yeah, that's what up. I'm just excited, man. We were supposed to do this last year. Shit got fucked up. So I'm excited to see. You know what I mean? Let's talk.

The feeling is mutual. My guy. Let's go. What we got? We got in season. tournament group winners right now. And I want to just do a little dissection. Shout up to Cole Kushna of every single group winner.

Okay. Sweet. You know, let's do it. Let's talk about the group winners of the in season tournament. Let's start with the Indiana Pacers who are in group A. Rogers is, Rogers watched a lot of Indiana Pacers games over the season.

It's to die to talk to you guys about this. You know, I'm sure we'll talk about this with Howard Brother if I get back on Monday. day, well, let's do an early preview, man. When you see the Indiana Pacers, they're playing the Boston Celtics. What do you see in that matchup? Like, it's one of those things where you could see Boston, in my opinion, the best team in the league at this point.

I put them, they're just really, really good. But when you go into the end-season tournament, how do you feel about that matchup going into that as an Indiana pacer? Sure. Well, as a pacer, look, we score the ball, all right? that's what we do. So as far as a one-game scenario, scoring can be a scary thing for the other team.

Now, when you start stretching it out over the best-of-type of series, I think defensively you've got to be better than the Pacers are, you know, for me to pick you. But the scary thing for a Boston team that is very good defensively is, you know, good offense beats good defense, like in one-game scenarios, if the offense is clicking and it's really, really hot. Do you know what I mean? It's like a defender.

You can do everything you can write, and that shot might still go in. So if you just catch a team where they're throwing, you know, they're throwing flames all night. You know, they might get you. I tend to lean towards Boston just because they also are good offensively and they're really, really stout defensively. Right. And the Pacers are fun. You know, in today's NBA, where it's about scoring and this is a, I guess, a side conversation about aesthetically how you like to watch the game. but in today's game, like, they get it in.

They can go. And so, you know, as it pertains to winning championships possibly and building a team and continuing to grow, like they have clear work to do on the defensive side of the ball and understanding how much that plays into being able to do those things. But right now, in a play-in, they're a scary team because, again, it's one and done. So if you catch them on a night where they're hot, I mean, they could get you. Have you been surprised about how hard,

teams have been playing for this in-season tournament, man. Like, I've been very, it's been riveting to watch. Like, there's been some great games. I've referenced Tuesday's game, but I even think about the, the, we're going to see a rematch of these two teams, but the sons and the Lakers playing against each other. That was a great early, early in-season tournament game. How have you felt about just the overall play of the in-season tournament thus far as we we go ahead into Vegas?

Yeah, well, I mean, they've been hooping. I do think that we've seen, while I don't think play in November was bad to begin with, necessarily. I do think they might be stepping it up a notch in some of these games. I think my eyes tell me that. Not only that, but it's been interesting, like, from a coaching perspective, to see, like, Missoula the other night. And it wasn't a great game,

but he's out there hacking a drumming, trying to get his points spread up, you know, for the end season. So it's thrown a little wrench in some things, and it's made for some interesting viewing. And I do think I could say pretty certainly that I think of at least a few of these games that I've watched, like dudes are playing a little harder and competing and getting after it a little bit more, knowing that there's something on the line. Have you gotten to hang of the rules yet?

Because like this is like I was at the Tuesday game. And you think about point differential, right? And I think that also did the Warriors in where you talk about how they had to win by 13 to win the group. And so with like five minutes left, they're up five or seven. and they're just chucking because they're trying to get to 13, right? Shot themselves right out that Joe.

They shot the shit right out. Like in a normal game, what they did was they shot themselves out of a game, right? Now, there's more the ramifications. There's other things, but that's been the fun thing of like, yo, it's the game within the game on this, right?

It does go towards your record, but you also, like, I think we underestimate how competitive professional athletes are, right? you guys compete for everything. So if there's just a character there, like we're going to try to get that.

And there's also a monetary perspective on this. How big of that is? Like if you were to, how big is the monetary gain for this? Not specifically for the LeBron James of the world, although you put $500,000 in LeBron James' face. He's going to go try to take that because it's the type of person he is.

But how was that dynamic for players, not just the stars, but the other guys who might not get a half a meal just in their bank account out of nowhere every single day. Like, how does that, how do? What does that incentive do for a player? Well, I think it's a, it's a real thing. What I, what I would say to you again is like, if I have an injury that I think I

can make worse or might jeopardize my season, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I put it on the line for that. But if it's just something nagging and it's like, hey, man, we could give you a game off or not. And that, that's on the line. You know, I'm playing. People ask me. all the time. What's the difference between

$6 million and $5.25 million? $750,000 damn dollars. That's what the difference is. What are we talking about? So, like, when you're saying I can either, I'm playing these games anyway, I can either have the extra 500K or not have it. Hey, man. It's just like when you broke, bro,

like what's the difference between $50 and $70? A whole dub. A whole dub. A whole dub. Listen, bro. You was in college. Remember when you were in college, Roger? And what a dub would do for your whole life?

What $20 would do? A whole week. What? Possibilities endless. Like, what? I remember, dog. I remember, hold on, dog. I remember, we're just here.

This is where we're at. This is the real ones. We're going off tangent. I promise we'll get back. But it's story time with Lolo. I remember, dog, I was dead broke one time, Rob. And I got, I got a, I needed lunch for that day. So I got a whole $500, not $5.75.

And $0.75 in quarters. Oh. So I could get, so I could get. So I could get a personal pizza from Roundtable and a refillable drink. Roger, when I tell you, when I found that $5.75. sense? Listen. That shit got me through. That's a matter between

life and death right there. What do you mean? That one round table personal pizza and that damn drink. Yeah, might have made a month. It made a buff. Pivotal. Like, it was break. It was make or break. Without that lunch for my parents got

paid before my parents' check got through, you found that extras that they couldn't help you until you got there, bro. And on a grander scale, that's what the fucking didn't see the tournament is about, bro. That's why these motherfuckers are playing this hard. Yeah, all jokes aside, man. I mean, I know people, people, it's hard to put in perspective. I mean, I lived that life for a while. Not, not making what these guys are making now, but, but, um, I, and I had family and, and, and friends that would be around and they,

they, they couldn't wrap their mind around some of the money that the other people were making. And so I get it. But I would just say to even those guys making whatever they're making, they have a family member or somebody like that that, you know, if, They don't need that bread in any way. Like, 500K is 500K. And you're playing ball and you're competing. And that's what you know how to do. So somebody could use it.

Somebody, especially in the families, bro. You know, you brand one for the family. Somebody can use that bread. Somebody can use it. Let's go to the next match show. I mean, you know what's funny is? Like, real talk. Like, this is, let me go off on a rant.

Generally speaking, the fan wants to make someone feel guilty for feeling like that. like do you know what I mean when we're just expressing that sentiment about it like who cares how much money somebody makes like real talk that ain't nobody's business if you won't give them an incentivized like they can make an extra 500k on something to compete at what they are currently doing yes they want that like that i mean i don't understand how that's well you know what it is and rightfully so it's just a hate towards the rich it just is what it is right like just stacking on top of your millions and on your millions and honestly I understand both perspectives at this point in my life, right? Like, I definitely was somebody that was like, we're going to fuck the rich, but also, like, we're just all humans trying to get this bag in this capitalist society, bro. That's all we're trying to do. Like, it's, it's, this is indocturated to this over, over centuries.

I don't need to tell you that. I don't need to tell the listener that. But that's what it is. Well, that's what it is. And, and, and I mean, look, I get it. Like, I, I mean, I grew, I grew up, you know, watching people that had a whole, lot and I didn't and so I understand that but I guess my thing is like it's not like that money is going to otherwise go to the disenfranchised or the less fortunate or or you know it spread out to areas of the world that could really use it like that's in the NBA pool of money like it's like dudes are going to compete for it and want it and I don't think they should be ashamed is what

I'm saying for that right like just because someone makes X amount of dollars if their employer is like hey, if you're really good, we'll give you an extra X, Y, and Z. Like, hedge fund dudes don't have to apologize for that. Straight up. Like, why athlete got to apologize? Because he's out there trying to play hard to make an extra 500K. Do we're in a bag right now. We are at a bag right now.

I don't know what bag we're in. I don't know what bag it is and we're in a bag right now, dog. $500K can be any kind of bag you want. In-season tournament vibes got us talking about capitalism on a Thursday morning. Jesus. Let's get to the next matchup. The New York Knicks are playing at the Milwaukee Bucks. Roger, what have you seen from both teams?

Oh, man. Well, the Bucks, I think the Bucks are one of those teams, man. I mean, well, we already knew that. I'm not breaking any news here. Like, that pairing, although it didn't look like seamless off the start, they're figuring it out. They're figuring it out. And they become scarier and scarier with each time they lace them up and take the court.

Right. So like catch them now. If you can, get them now. And again, in one game scenarios, anything can take place. But the bucks are just going to keep getting better. For the Knicks, like, I mean, I just, they're, they're Tibado, man. Like, they're, and I don't, that's not to take anything away from them do. It was like, Jalen Brunson, I'm going to say this again.

I'm sorry, bro. I'm sorry, bro. We said some wild shit on this podcast about Jaila Brensen that I'm really surprised that didn't get on the worst takes list. I know for me, I said some wild shit. Yeah, I think you may have said wilder stuff, but in fairness, I got to apologize because I knew it was a good player. I could see that.

I didn't see this. You know what I mean? Like that, we're talking about, you know, I didn't see this, you know, and what that means to New York as a market. That's really cool. Let's just leave that where it's at. I'm sorry, Jaylen Brunson. But as a team, man, like, you know, play hard, defend.

Got more people that can get a bucket than you, then maybe you give them credit for, like, grimy. A very tough team. Now, for me, I still feel like they're a step off of championship level type of stuff. Can you dig what I'm saying? If that makes sense. But, like, I've given the opportunity. They're like the East Coast Kings. Right?

They're not playing. I'd rather not play you. You know, because just what you represent. Like, I don't know, I'm not trying to play that. I mean, I will say this. If you see the Knicks and the playoffs at any point, Madison Square Garden is a tough place to play, bro. Like, we've seen that over the last few years

where the Knicks have played in. It gets loud. It gets all the shit. They just don't have a star. They're a star away. Well, Milwaukee, it's interesting. They got a star. They have a star.

Now they have a... Okay, what's the difference between a star and the star that they need, then, Roger? Tell me. They don't have. They educate me. No, they might not have I mean, in their face. They don't have a franchise pillar.

They might need a superstar or, you know, because again, Jalen Brunce is a star, dude. Like he's, what he's doing. Like, he's a star. We're going to, we're going to like, I mean, I don't know. I miss a little bit, but you don't know what.

Like, he's not, not Pat Ewing. Yeah, for sure, but that's a super star. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They're a super star. They're a tier one player away. I would give you that. Yeah, that's fair. But the weird thing, though, is like, it's hard.

This is how tricky the league is because while I say they're a superstar away, like when you say how hard it is to get a superstar, that's what I'm thinking about with the Knicks, because when you see there's only a handful of guys out there and Jalen Brunson, they got time to waste, right? You wait in five, six years to find a superstar. It's just tough to be in the middle. And my fear for the Knicks is they're just going to be. above average in the middle type team.

You know what I mean? They're going to be exciting. They're going to be great. You don't want to play them. But like, what does that get you? 45, 47 wins a year? Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Orange and blue skies. They want, they want 60 wins. They want a championship in the God and Raja. I do. I do. I understand exactly what you're saying.

And the pieces like the R.J. is a great piece. I'm such a fan of RJ Barry. Been a fan of R. Been a fan of R.J. Like they got good pieces. But you know what? And more than I think about them, like they, again, they've got a,

they've got guys that weirdly, because I know Julius Randall's not that young, but maybe hasn't had the type of postseason success that might fit into the category of player that I'm thinking of that would ultimately be really good to pair with all that talent. That's a lot of young talent they have too. We talk about teams like this all the time. Are you proposing a trade?

I'm not proposing one because I haven't really parsed it out. And but I think they are the star that you're talking about away, but that star needs to have real experience. Okay. Do you know what I mean? Like somebody to tie it all together like that. It's just a feeling that I get. Or maybe it's just a really good number two that has that type of cachet and that

type of experience. Like, but that's what it feels like to me, right? Something that moves the needle and get you over the hump. It's not another young, really good player, though. Otherwise, you're just waiting on the natural maturation of this and hoping it gets there, right? And what you're saying to me is orange and blue skies ain't got that kind of time.

So how do we expedite that? Like, you got something like that. New York doesn't clap its Tims in the air for average shit. I mean, maybe they have in the thing, but maybe they have in the past. I don't know. But like with the vigor of the smack into Tim's in the air, like they don't, you don't get that for being 45, 47 wins a year. You know what I mean?

It's all I'm saying. to the Bucks, they have righted the ship a little bit, but one of the things that is chronically bad is their defense, bro. They don't have a championship level defense. I'm even looking at the NBA stats right now. Even over,

I was trying, you know, whenever you go to try to make the stats be what you want them to be, right? Where you're like, yo, I'm going to put this, this, this. Every filter that I put on the Milwaukee bucks defensively, they've all been ass right now.

And I went for the last 10 days. They are posting a 117 defensive rating. Geez. I went their 24th. They've been meddling within like the 24 and the in the mid-20s to like late 20s in terms of defensive rating. They have guys, but their star, you know, dames never has it been like a great defender throughout his career or even, you know, average defender throughout his career puts a lot of pressure on yannis who is an elite defender at times but you do need to have defenders and players playing good defense it's a weird team that they

have right now because it is a championship level team but some of their role players talk about a brookelopez you're talking about even a chris middleton they're getting a little long in the tooth and i'm thinking about middleton who's who's battling injuries doesn't have the same body he had two three years ago i am concerned about the bucks like if they're going to go going to play against a Boston Celtics team, right? Or they're going, and I'm not talking about a Boston Celtics team in November. Talk about a Celtics team in May when, you know, the chips are down and are playing their best basketball.

Is that going to be a thing? Or like the Philadelphia 76ers, you got to deal with that. How do you think that they, how can you write in the interim write the ship defensively if you're the Milwaukee Bucks? You know, defense is one of those one of those weird things. obviously, you know, subtracting Drew Holiday from the situation and the brilliance that he is defensively is going to impact you. And now he goes to the team that is your fiercest rival.

What's this? Damn. Yeah, it's tough. Like, you brought an offensive weapon in like Dame Lillard and they're like, yo, we'll just counter that by getting the, the point. Hewley's in theory, the antidote. But here's the weird thing, man, and I can only go off personal, so forgive me, a listener, because I know I've done this all pot, but this is all I have to go off of.

Coaching teams, right? It's so hard defensively. So what I would say is when you get a new coach in, and we talked about Adrian Griffin, you know, and wondering when you walk into a building that's been as successful as the Bucks had been recently, what your messaging was going to be, what you were going to tinker with, what type of things do you leave in place because they're proven to have worked? do you have the ability to maybe sometimes it's ego? Like say, hey, man, I know I want to do it this way,

but that's kind of work for them. So maybe there's some sort of concession we can make, like maybe not go in heavy-handed, just tearing down the framework of what's already there. And I don't know that he's done this at all. But what I'm saying, it was going to be interesting to see what he decided to, you know, rebuild and what he decided to remodel.

If this was a frame-off type of restoration, like I don't know. but clearly, defensively, some things have been changed in a way that... Seems irreparable. Yeah, it's not working. And I don't know if that's messaging from a coach, like if that's a boot and hoser to AG thing. I've coached teams, Logan, like different teams with different personnel, you know,

and sometimes I'm wondering like, man, is it me? Like my high school team, I can't get them to buy into playing defense the way I like defense to look. I just can't. some nights I'll be like, yo, man, is it me? Man, maybe I'm not good at this. But then I take like a, you know, my, my AAU team and we're some dogs defensively. Like people are like, yo, man, you got strapped up. And I'm preaching the same thing.

What's the difference in personnel, though? Like, you know what I mean? Like, is it a difference in like the different, it's different players on each team? Yeah. So it's different. I mean, look, talent is a thing. But these aren't like, we're not talking about NBA first round picks on either one of those teams necessarily.

We're just talking about a more receptive audience. people that buy in a little bit more personality types that are more receptive to what I'm talking about. And so it's hard to quantify exactly what, you know, motivates one team. Again, it could be something as, as Griff could be talking the same exact stuff as Boodenholzer and they might, from personality type to personality type, not, not dig the messaging as much. I don't know. So, you know, I mean, I said a lot of words to answer the question in the same way I started, which is I really don't know, but they got to fix that. Yeah, it's going to be interesting.

Like, I just don't. They play the defense they do right now. They're going to be a second round out is what it is. Yeah, you're not being, you're not being the Celtics and teams. I'd still give them a, I'd still probably pick them over to Sixers. I don't know why. It's just what I'm just because of Yannis. It's because of Yonis.

But you ain't being the bucks. I mean, you ain't being boss something like that. The last match of I would like to talk about from, I think this is on Tuesday. It is, and this also speaks to like, I think. the success of the in-season tournament, that you're going to have another, another matchup between the Sons and the Lakers, potentially another matchup between Katie and LeBron.

I love when these two teams play against each other. They're two of the most exciting stories, you know, in the league with their star power. Let's go with the Lakers, who LeBron's playing out of his body, playing ridiculously well for his age, not even just for his age, but just as a player in the league. But we still have this age all issue, bro.

And I don't know if I'm going to get a Roger rant out of this, but I wouldn't mind one. Anthony Davis and not playing. And I will say this. I got a lot of partners that are in and around the Lakers that do defend Anthony Davis to the deaf, saying he is a great defender that he is one of the best defenders in the league. He does score an offset LeBron.

shooting at times. But damn it, the numbers have bared themselves out. When LeBron is off the floor, the team is not good. Or as good as when he is on the floor. And I know that LeBron is an all-time great, but damn it, man, we need somebody to step up. We need it just, come on.

Come on. But like, we have this conversation every time we talk about the Lakers, Roger. I mean, what you want me to do? What do you want me to say? I don't know. You want me to go on A.D. rant? You want me to go on... I don't know what I want, bro. But it's just, it's tough. They're good.

They're fun to watch. They play a game of a style of basketball that makes for entertaining games, right? Because it always seems like they have to, whenever I watch them, they have to just keep the game close and win it at the end, which is great for me to watch. And also shout out to Michael Thompson for getting preferential treatment on the team playing, is all I'm saying. LeBron got to go through security on the team playing. Have you ever, do y'all be going through security on the team? playing, but he'd be showing his Bohemian passport to be just going skating right through.

The homie Mike Chardell always puts this on his Instagram and it's great. It's just great entertaining stuff. So shout out to Mike, both mics, Michael Thompson and Mike Chardell. But back to the Lakers. It just seems like while they do have entertaining games, I just don't know if they have the legs to win a title because their secondary star can't be a number one when they need them to be a number one.

I don't think you've said anything there that's a news flash. to anyone. I mean, LeBron is playing fantastic. It's really amazing to witness. And I hope everyone is taking in and appreciating, taking this in and appreciating it for what it is, which is pretty amazing that he's able to do this at this point in his career. If he is going to be required to do this all through the regular season

and through the postseason for them to win the title, that's unrealistic at this point. Not because he, not because he couldn't if he were healthy the whole time, but the chances of that happening aren't great if he's got to carry this type of load. AD has been what I think AD is, and I just think he got the wrong type of, he got put in the wrong category as a player.

And so you always expect him to be that player, and he's just proven to you over and over again, and there's no shame in it, but that he's not in that tier one category. So expecting him to be a tier one guy isn't even fair to him. Like, he's, he's just proven it to you with the body of work that is a career. Like, that's not, not at the winning NBA championship level. And there's a difference between being a number one player,

but we've talked about this before on an NBA franchise, like, or being a number one player on a team that's going to win championships, right? And so he falls weirdly somewhere in the middle of those. Like, enough to trick you. He's a, he's a magician. Real talk, real talk. Now, so I don't, I don't have no beef with Anthony then. Here's, here's where I told you that I thought, I like Austin Reeves. I like DeAngelo. I like them. They're nice pieces, but they ain't the pieces. Because people are trying to convince me that Austin Reeves was the answer to everything. We're going to do this. We're Austin Reeves. We're going to do that. And I think I did this with you guys like before and I'll do it again. I feel like this is the annual occurrence where you were, we, we, we, you put the, we prop somebody up for the Lakers and you just make it your obligation to tear it down. It's the THT award.

It kind of. I mean, I, you know, I'm not saying they're the same player, but the, the overestimation, I think, at times of what someone is, that happens in, in, in, Lakerland a lot. Shit, I'm not throwing any shade in anybody as a player, but the type of help they need is, is, like, real weaponry, night in, night out weaponry. And I, and you know what? you brought up a good thing and that allows me to be devil's advocate for AD because Anthony Davis is who he is

and still a top 10, top 15 player in the league. I truly believe that when he's on. But when you have LeBron and you have AD, you do need complimentary pieces that are dudes. I'm not saying, you know, Austin Reeves isn't a dude or DeAngelo isn't a dude, but I don't know if Austin Reeves

is the number three guy on your roster. He might be like maybe four or five. And that's not even a, that's not even shade. That's just, that's real. That's when you look at them on the thing. That's just. That's facts. Right.

Do many dudes playing the NBA, man? How many jobs are there currently in the NBA? If you're saying someone is good enough to be number four or number five even on a team, that in and of itself is a compliment. So we need to get out of the world where you're throwing shade at someone for saying they're not a number two, damn it. Right? Like, now, again, you put them in the wrong category off the bat.

And that's what happens, right? like when you miss characterize a guy and then they're not that, this is where you wind up having to argue about it. But when you have a two like AD that is can be hit or miss, can kind of be, you know, aloof at times, is off injured and stuff like that, your number three can't be a nice piece. Yeah.

Your number three has to be a truly a number two that is a killer in his own right and he can carry you at through six game stretches because he's that nice. If you know who is a number three in this league? Bradley Beal. Oh, yeah, straight out. You know how cold Bradley Beal is? Right. And he's a number three option.

That's how deep the NBA is, right? Especially in your division. Yeah, but no, no, I think it's, that's a great point. Now, if you have healthy, youthful stars, I don't think it's as critical to have. have a number three like that. Because you're one and the two are dudes. They're young. They can carry.

You're not worried about the injury bug as much as you would with an older player or miles on their tires. Then it doesn't become as critical to have a three like that. But in the world that the Lakers live in with LeBron at his advanced age, but still playing fantastic, probably not needing to put it all on his shoulders like early in the season, maybe just, you know, having him be fresh and special late. and then needing to carry games, you know, because of that.

But then AD is your two. In that realm, you need a cold-blooded number three. Let's go to the Sons. Devin Booker rolled his ankle last night. So I hope he plays Tuesday. We'll see what happens. Katie is back in the lineup. This team is interesting because, like, at times,

they are so fun to watch, bro. Like, ridiculously fun to watch. But they're not whole, right? They have the talent, the scoring, they have, they're the potential team, you know? And I always get seduced by potential. I hate that about myself. You know what I'm saying? I always like, oh, man, this dude is tight. Wow, what could happen? And I, and with the sons, like, in theory, do I want to see them in the finals? Yeah, I think that'd be a fun look. I think the, I know the storylines would be great.

But in practice, I'm like, I don't know if they could even get there because on the one hand, they're a great scoring team, but I don't like them defensively at all when the ships are down. I don't like, I think that they're one of those teams that are, while in the end season tournament, it'll be fun to watch them. I think when they're one of those teams that has to get on the right side of the bracket to win the championship, if you know what I mean, right, where the Lakers and the nuggets are on one side and then you have the suns on another side, they can sneak into the finals that way. When you see them, what are your impressions?

They have KD. They have an all-time score. they have Devin Booker who was a, oh my God, I love watching him play. But they're trying to bring in Bradley Bill, who has had back issues, and it's been hard for him. So I think he's only played like one game. How do you find rhythm and consistency? This was a problem last year.

How do you find rhythm and consistency when guys are consistently in and out of the lineup? That's difficult. You're just treading water, really, right now. You know, hoping to find and hit a stride with all of that going on. is unrealistic. You're just, you're, you're, you're bail in water, bail in water hoping to find the leak and plug it up. Like, you're just trying to keep the boat afloat.

Now, what you can do in situations like that is, is develop some other pieces that ordinarily might not be getting the minutes. You know, when you're a thin team like that, because of, you know, the top heavy startum, like there may be some pieces that you get a look at further down on that bench that you might not have had plans for, circumstances throw them in the mix, You know, you're either going to find them or figure out that they can't help you. But silver lining of that would be like we found some guys and got him some real meaningful minutes

that we might have some backups that we didn't know we had, right? But yeah, I mean, you know, they've got to be at full strength and firing on all cylinders offensively to be the player that I think they can be. If they're short of that in any way, shape, or form, then I agree with you. what KD is doing, like, offensively is pretty remarkable when you look at it shooting percentages and, and, you know, efficiency and so on and so forth. There was a shot. I don't think I put it in the chat that he made against the Lakers in the first in-season tournament where he goes and he does a pull up. He sees DeAngelo Russell behind him and he shoots a three over two guys and the shit goes.

Did you see that play? I don't know that I saw that. No. Bro, he shot a shot where he was, it was in his. his bag. I don't know if it was Austin Reeves in front of him, but he had Austin Revers in front of him going into a pull-up three, and he saw that

DiAngelo was coming behind him trying to block it, did not even flinch, hit a three on both of them, and it was one of the most incredible shots I'd ever seen because he is unfazed by any bit of defense. I remember I was watching

a podcast. I think it was old man in a three with Blake Griffin, and they say that like when you're guarding KD, he doesn't get phased as a basketball player no matter what. And you're seeing that at another level, like in this season where he's just, it's incredible to see how he's doing this this far in his career. Again,

not just this far in his career, but having that dreaded Achilles injury, you know, and then he's 30, he's 31 on 52% from the, from the field and 49% from three right now. As a footer. Like,

yeah, I hope people know what they're looking at. Like, I know damn well that most of the people I deal with on a day-to-day in the basketball world will never be KD. They're not as gifted as he is. They'll never be as, as long and rangy as he is.

I get it. But I tell them all. If you want to watch somebody that, that you can pattern like some, some of your offensive game, after go watch KD. And it sounds crazy because they're like I'm not 611. I can't do that. You're like,

nah, man, he makes it really simple. I got, I got a, I got something for you to do during your time. I know like around 11 o'clock, you know, you get your little something to drink, a little adult juice that you be drinking. A little ting. A little, a little oop. Take a couple of sips to that.

Play some tame Impala and watch some like 10 minutes of KD offensive highlights, bro. It's trust. Trust me. That might be on deck tonight because... Trust me. Bro, I literally said it on my son on the car ride to school this morning, man. I said, hey, man, you know, just getting to your spot.

You know, like, you guys are all in love with all of this overdrivelling, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Like, there's nothing like a two dribble pull up, you know what I mean, like a little mid-range game or just like a post-play or just, you know what I'm saying? It's nothing like just real offense. Time and place for sure with some of that. But man, efficiency, what you're just described as efficient scoring, man. Like, look, as little as possible to get this thing up and get a quality look. Now, obviously, some of that is dictated by the person guarding you and whether or not you can put him in the midpost and all of that type of stuff.

But can't nobody guard him, though. No, no, no. I mean for someone else, if I'm telling you to model your game after that. But given the opportunity, like, seeing someone like yourself or you're slightly, man, come on, bro. Some of that stuff is just beautifully simple. And it's pretty cool to watch. So look, Phoenix as a whole, they got to get healthy.

Those dudes have to give them a 10 game to 12 game opportunity to really iron out what that offense looks like when all three of them are out there together. And I'll be able to give you a better understanding of what I think they'll be. But right now, it's just TBD. Fun team to watch. I don't know who wins that game. They're playing at Staples, at New Staples, so I'm going to go with the Lakers. I think I'll just, I'll go with that. But you never know.

It's going to be a fun, fun game. Let's go to ruin of the week. I have, don't, I am ill prepared at this point. So go ahead and I'll bring it. I'll get my room of the week ready. You're first. Oh, man. Oh, man.

All right, all right, all right. I'll do this, man. This is just off the dome because I was not prepared either. And I don't, I want to preface this by saying this is, not a suck up in any way, shape, or form. But he was a friend of mine before he was Dia's football coach. His name is Mike Smith. He's the head coach over at American Heritage High School in Plantation, Florida. And his team is currently in the state semifinals. They'll play this Friday with a chance to go back to the state championship where they lost last year to Miami Central

in a nail biter. Mike took the job last year. It was his first year as a head coach. They had a senior late in team with like Mark Fletcher who's at University of Miami starting tailback. Brandon Innes, who was a five-star wide receiver. He's at Ohio State. Blake Murphy, a quarterback who was at University of Louisiana Monroe. Damari Brown, who started for University of Miami last this year. Like those were his seniors last year, and they lost 27 of them. And so his team was left dead in the water with a bunch of sophomores and juniors this year.

And no one gave them credit for being able to do anything. Now, these kids can play, right? My son's this quarterback, and they got good receivers and good backs and good line and, you know, D.Bs that are good. But the fact that he was able to get that group of relatively inexperienced kids to buy into what he was preaching and then steer them all the way through the regular season, their only loss being to the number two team in the country, Shamanah, Madonna in a better game, I think, than people thought it was going to be. I got to give him a shout out because I've watched it from the parents. side with my son Dia who's all in on him as a as a coach myself and as his friend like shot out bro real one of the week mike smith american heritage high school football that's what's up i'm

gonna keep it on the high school theme as well i'm gonna go with michael peters most affectionately known as coach pooh from the mcclimin's football team in west oakland california he i went to the game on Saturday and it was his last, one of his last, his last home game as coach of the McCleiman's Warriors. And he has been a coach of McCleiman's for about 10 years, has not lost a league game with the Oakland Athletic League, has not lost and is retiring this year. Legend.

I was, it was a lot, I was, it was great to go on the campus of McClemmons. It's been a while. They, uh, they had the catfish, uh, They had the catfish popping, catfish and fries popping at the game. It was like that. It was like that. I hadn't been there. I am not, I am not enough. Yeah, come pull up to West Oakland.

You know you got love in West Oakland, Roger. You don't know if you're aware of that, but you got love to West Oakland. I did not graduate from a Climitz High School. I went to Beehive, but I got a lot of love for that school. Coach Poo was one of our football coaches as a kid. I played with his son, Marcus, with the Oakland Dynamites. Johnzo Carter was my coach at Berkeley High. Before that, he was a legendary coach at McClyman's High School.

A lot of love for Mackhouse. We're in one of the week to Mackhouse and to Coach Poo. Happy retirement, buddy. You know you to OG. Go enjoy it. He's still going to be the coach of the McClymonds' girls' flag football team, which is a big deal. So shout out to him.

Got a lot of people off the streets. in the college, that's a big deal. Everybody in West Oakland knows about the legacy of McCleman's High football team, but not only the football team, but the basketball team where one Bill Russell played as a youth. So

shout out to McCliman's High School. Shout out to Coach Pooh. We're in a week. West Oakland, we see you. Yeah, we gave you guys an hour and five minutes and we didn't know what the hell we were going to talk about today. Literally didn't know what we were going to talk about. So that is how you pod in November.

All right. Show you how to do this, son. We will see you guys on Monday. Hey, also, hey, if you guys are in Vegas, tap in, what is it, the Jimmy Kibble Theater on December 6th. Go get your tickets, a ticket master. Bill Simmons' pod

experience. We will be opening for the pod father. Until then, we've got a couple more shows. Have a good weekend. Tap in. Let me get a shout out to Rafael Gonzalez real quick, bro. says he taps in just to hear us, bro. Oh, we got to get that out.

Yeah, straight. We got to tap it to our rules. Our real, hey, we have a cult following, bro. Yeah, yeah. He hit me. He hit me. He said he taps in just for the real ones, man. That's appreciated.

Much love. That's what's up. Oh, hey, also shout out real quick to the Ringer NBA feed on Spotify wrapped the ninth most listened to podcast feed in the world. Tap in. What's up? What's up? All right.

Just leave it like that. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and president's select states. Fanduil is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC.

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