The Ringer NBA Show - The Ben Simmons Saga Continues and Klutch Sports Group Remains in the Spotlight | Group Chat

Episode Date: September 1, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos are back from a well-earned break and thanking Ben Simmons and Klutch for creating some news during what is most often the slowest part of the NBA offseason. They discuss whether the recent report that Ben Simmons will refuse to appear at 76ers training camp has changed anything about the situation for Philadelphia or any of the teams vying to be his next destination (0:30). Then they break down what Zach LaVine signing with Klutch could mean for his tenure with the Bulls, whether he could be part of a trade package for Simmons, and whether Klutch's reputation as a signal for player movement is truly earned (13:30). They also take a look at the dispute between Nerlens Noel and Klutch and why Rich Paul gets such an unprecedented level of attention for an agent (28:45). Finally, they talk about Clint Capela’s extension with the Atlanta Hawks (40:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The press box is here to catch you up on the latest media stories. Hosted by Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker, these guys have the insight on the biggest stories you care about. Check out the press box on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the group chat. I'm Justin Barrier, joining me on this reunion after two weeks off from hearing our just wonderful basketball opinions. Righteous Rob Mahoney, are you glad to be back in the saddle?

Look, some of us never left. I've just been in the Zoom call. waiting for you guys to come back. Big Was, was your time off restful? I wouldn't say that, but it was nice to, you know, be able to connect with some families, some friends, and, you know, do the thing. Should we even ask what the thing is,

or does that get into NSFW territory? A little bit of this, a little bit of that. And we could get into it off, Mike. Okay. I read a book. That was my big thing. I feel accomplished, but it was like 200 pages and the print was large. So a pamphlet, really.

Yeah, it was like the Kings winning the Summer League title, basically. Or was it or was it Mitt Romley's binders full of women, which was it? I have access to those, unfortunately. Well, the good thing is nothing really happened in the NBA. And if anything, we're back to where we first started, where Ben Simmons is once again, going through some stuff here. We're going to talk about some other stuff later in the podcast. Maybe get to Klincapella's extension,

a little clutch action, which is actually tangential to the Ben stuff. But as you probably heard by now, our guy Ben Simmons does not want to show up for training camp. This according to the Philadelphia Inquirer yesterday. It's kind of the story you would expect at this point. I mean, definitely splinters from there. There's Joelle and Bede, like defending himself and defending Ben Simmons and also like throwing Philly under the bus.

I don't really know what was going on there. today. You have teams like the wolves and the kings thinking that they have a chance. There's a whole clutch element, as I mentioned before. But here's my question for you, Waz. Is anything different about the Ben Simmons trade scenario hostage crisis from the Sixers POV based on him making this request public? No, I don't think anything changes from their POV because what they're going to say, they're going to do tough guy talk, right? They're going to be Like if he doesn't come into camp, he doesn't show up for preseason. He loses money.

We'll watch him lose money if that's what he actually cares about doing. So so long as he's under contract, he's our player, right? And that's what they're going to say. And then, of course, as I mentioned several times before, after they re-signed Danny Green, Mori tweets out the five-man data of the six-est starting lineup having the best net rating in the entire league when it comes to five-man rotations, especially when you can sit high volume five-man lineups, right? So that's the company line.

He's under contract. So long as we have him, we're going to be a really good team. We're not in a rush to get rid of him. But the reality is that your own teammate talked about you as if you were a dead person. Danny Green is talking to our buddy Howard Beck about Ben Simmons in the past tense as if he had already died. And so, yeah, that's just the reality of the situation. I don't think this even changes anything for the other teams either. Like you were either in on Ben Simmons or you were out.

You knew who he was. You knew what he was, like who he was as a person, what his attitude was approach is like. Who is really like whose hearts and minds are being changed by him holding out of camp if it really comes to that, you know? I definitely think the bad teams of the league, the Minnesota Timberwolves, the Sacramento Kings are definitely parking up thinking like, oh, maybe this fiasco gives us a little bit more of an edge. Maybe this applies a little bit of pressure. there really comes down to how much you really buy into the, this is a distraction argument, right? And I don't know where I fall on that to a certain degree. It didn't with Hardin until it did, right?

Like it really took him having that a very confusing, very explicit press conference before someone in ownership in the Houston side said, get him out of here. That seemed like a very clear one-to-one. But until then, it just really comes down to how much your team, your executives, the guys in front of microphones every day can really just handle a couple lobs from media? I don't know. So I'm mixed on this.

I think the one thing is it was really the only tool and clutches, like toolbox, right? They wanted to make this more of a thing because that does potentially give them more of an edge. Yeah, and I think theoretically, right, if you're Mori,

the idea of presenting this sort of public face of, we love Ben, he's great, We're going to be great with him, is that it gives you more trade leverage to say to teams, I have no problem walking away from this. However, however, for those of us who live on planet Earth, when a guy says he doesn't want to show up to camp, if he's saying he doesn't want to show up to camp, of sure, maybe he might get forced to come play because of financial obligations and stuff.

Why do you think we're going to watch him play better than he did last year while he doesn't want to already be there. Like, to me, this puts the, the, the, the sixers in a weird bind when it comes to trying to extract value from this trade, because there's no world in which he's better than what people perceive them to be last year, right? Like, that's not going to happen. You either don't play him, which I think is the best thing to do, but also presents the idea of the teams. Like, look, you can't even play this guy anymore, right? So why should we give you anything for him? Or you do play him? and he looks horrible, right?

And that's why I said from the beginning, like the longer this drags out, the worst it is for the Sixers as far as the value that they think they're going to give for this guy because I don't see a scenario where he comes in and he just goes gangbusters for this team and his value goes out the roof.

Well, and there's a lot of mixed messaging from the Sixers as to whether they even want him to be there. You know, Joel Embed was on Twitter this morning tweeting, first, I hope everyone is back. Second, not everyone is built, like me, which is exactly what I told Sasha while you guys were out. I don't really know what any of that means, but I know, like, I know Doc Rivers was understandably really noncommittal at the end of the playoffs about Ben Simmons and his state

in the league and his state with the team. Like, there's just a lot of, I don't really know what to make of this other than everyone kind of wants to go their separate ways and they're trying to put on some, some sense of a public face to get this done. Yeah, I mean, I think holding him out though might actually benefit the Sixers in a certain way because I do think the people you're going to loop into these trade talks are the ones who see Ben as someone who if they get him in a different environment, he could become the player that I think all of us wanted and it probably expected him to be. It becomes more of an eye of the beholder situation. And then if you don't get any actual new information to the contrary, if you don't see him

not taking three-pointers or not like taking wide open dunks when they're available to him, all you have to really go on is your perception and potentially these videos that keep floating around the internet of him shooting one three or two threes while in a scrimmage. And I do wonder if that's enough of attachment from all the issues that maybe teams convinced themselves of something else. I think it actually might help the Sixers in that regard, try to kind of like get people more invested in the old idea of Ben or your previous perception of Ben, the superstar. Well, you just hit the nail right on the head, just. When it comes to trading for Ben Simmons,

you either believe that you can get him to be the aggressive player that we all want him to be or you don't, right? Like you think get him in your locker room, you're building around your people, your coaching, your culture, and he's going to turn into that type of player. And so to a certain extent, it's like, it doesn't kind of matter whether he plays or not.

If you think it's the Sixers culture, and locker room and atmosphere that's holding him down. However, my counter to that is, you know, it's twofold. It's like, one, you have to be convinced that he's ever going to become a guy who wants to be as aggressive as, and I know I've beaten this like a dead horse, like Janice. But two, it's not even just that you're aggressive. And I think Janice is instructive because it's not like Janice was aggressive and everything just opened up for him. No, he was aggressive and he had to figure more stuff out.

right so it's like at least with yonness the aggression is a given right and then the all right how well will you adapt and figure stuff out and add things to your game after you learn what it means to be this sort of focal point kind of offensive player in a playoff setting and then you go out and you learn it and you apply those lessons to your new thing going forward I'm like wait the aggression is not a given with ben Simmons and then too like he's he's gonna figure everything out I don't understand why you trade for that. Well, if you're one of these teams like the wolves, I could see you talking yourself into it pretty easily.

You know, you're thinking, we have a guy in Anthony Edwards who does not need to be coaxed to shoot. You know, Carl Towns and Ben Simmons couldn't be a better match together. Facts. And the longer this goes on, I think the better chance teams like the wolves will have

to get involved, just because other teams are going to come and go, they're going to check in on Ben Simmons, and then they're going to get on with their seasons. They're going to say, okay, well, we can't trade for him. Let's see what we have with our actual team. But what are the wolves playing for, if not trying to get involved in these kinds of trade conversations? And so they may end up getting in on that discussion, whether it's a three-way

or whatever that trade ends up looking like, just because they're willing to stay on the line a little longer than anybody else. Yeah, apparently they don't have a power forward right now, which I didn't realize until the athletic story came out. I guess McDaniels and Vanderbilt are the closest things they have to that. I mean, maybe they just go all offense and try to scores the nets there. I would believe the wolves part of it if the reporting, or at least what we know about it, it wasn't their position wasn't that they were only willing to give up like Jared Cole. Well, they didn't have Jerich Cole for any parts.

They can't even give them them. But like the thing from the athletic was basically they want to pair Simmons with Towns, Edwards, a clutch client, and Russell. And at that point, I'm like, what are we doing? The Sacramento Bee even had a report. where it's like, yeah, they would love to get Ben Simmons, but they don't want a part with Fox or Halliburton. And so it's just like, what are we doing?

What are we talking about? Yeah, yeah, no. And because I was about to say, as low as I've been on Ben Simmons, I'm about 50 times low on DeAngelo Russell. So if there was a way to swap those two cats out, and, you know, sure, your playmaking, it kind of suffers. But I think when you have a guy who's as brilliant as Carl Towns,

and who is so complimentary of what Ben Simmons does. I don't think the playmaking issue becomes as pronounced as it is. And I think Edwards is going to become a dynamic one-on-one score. So playmaking become something that you can de-emphasize in that kind of swap, right? Because, look, I get that DeAngelo Russell played quality basketball for like 40 days that one time with the Nets and he snuck into an All-Star game. And so people think that he's like some really good player because of the pedigms. agree as far as being, you know, a top three pick and all of that stuff. But I would do that in a heartbeat if I'm Minnesota.

Yeah. I mean, I'm more of a Russell believer, but like the past year or two really hasn't given much to that argument. Like, he just hasn't been as available to be as confounding as he often is. I mean, this is the problem with the Sixers in general. Like, they're not just asking for a bunch of picks. This isn't a James Hardin situation. They need a star in the hand to keep this rolling with Joelle and B. And so, I mean, we've had this conversation before, but I think it's worth having again, like, we know they're waiting on DAME. If Dame does not become available and you have to pull the trigger,

what's the best you can get? And it becomes a pretty small pool of guys pretty quickly. Rob, is there any, like, team or player that you would be looking at if you couldn't get a Dame? Not happily. And that's where this whole thing goes off the rails for the Sixers.

It's like, if you can play this over the longer term, maybe you bump into Dane becoming available or Brad Beale or someone else who are not talking about, suddenly becomes available in the trade market. But if we're getting into C.J. McCollum territory, into the DeAngelo Russell sweepstakes, these aren't deals that really move me if I'm the Sixers. And so they would kind of have to talk themselves into one almost all-star type guy and a couple of role players and maybe like a high upside young guy and a deal. I'm not sure that's really changing your life if you're the Sixers,

but they're at the point where they don't get to pick and choose these things if one of their best players isn't going to show up to play. Well, I mean, the obvious one, I guess after Beal, who we could talk about, but that doesn't seem like that situation's going to get resolved

any quicker than the Dame situation, but is Zach Levine, who ominously was announced as a clutch client at like a minute before this report came out. What makes us think he's available? Well, that he signed with Clutch ahead of a contract here. I mean, so, so I think it's, I think that there's a lot of signaling that goes on when, you know, the guy who orchestrated the Anthony Davis departure, who's now in charge of the Ben Simmons departure, you know, signs on as a client, a guy who's up for a huge contract extension.

But look, I think the rich Paul, I think what makes him available, Rob, is not just the clutch of it all. Hashtag and Clutch We Trust, just so anybody was wondering. In case anybody was wondering. I don't think it's just that. It's what I mentioned, you know, a few podcasts ago when, you know, Winhorse asked him about his deal. And he's like, I just won't respect. I'm sorry, when you start talking about respect from your current employer, that's because you're not happy and you want to get the hell out of nobody who's, you know, really happy about their situation.

Like, put it this way. Like, imagine if somebody asked Janice about the Bucks organization and he started talking about, well, I just would like for them to respect me. People would be like, what? No, because that would never come up, right? Like, he's obviously got a certain amount of trust. And there's a mutual respect there between player and organization as a franchise guy as, you know, management, seeing the guy as integral to what they're doing in the future.

Obviously, Zach Levine hasn't been feeling that love from Bulls management into Bulls Brass. And so, you know, I see those comments while he's on the Olympic team. I see Rich Paul now involved in the situation. I don't know how you don't think this guy's not on the market. How do you think he's not on the market? I mean, he may be, but I think the signaling is the important part because to me, what allows Clutch to chase all the big deals that they have for their players is that reputation. It's the implied threat

that a clutch client is willing to just walk out the door if they get a better offer. Like that threat is real. As to whether the data and the history really backs it up, I don't know. Like John Wall was a clutch client, got the Supermax from the Wizards. Dejante Murray

re-uped with the Spurs. You got Dremont re-uping with the Warriors. Like, their guys stay. I don't know if it's as often as they go. And you certainly have these very high profile situations of players engineering trades to leave, absolutely. That's inarguable. But I just think there's a lot of work-a-day

and role-player type guys on a Clutch's roster who just signed normal, free-agent deals and we don't talk about it. I think that's a good point, although I would look at the specifics of the examples that you mentioned. John Wall stayed for the Supermax, which no one was it probably ever going to get close to they couldn't,

but like nobody probably, I don't know, it was even a max player at that. Nobody. He got his damn respect, you know? Right. I mean, Drayman was staying put on a dynasty. You know, like those individual situations make sense to stay.

I'm not so sure it makes sense for Levine to stay on the Bulls long term. I mean, that's actually a good question to ask for it. If you're Levine, are you saying my future is brighter with the Bulls? They brought in Lonzo Ball. They brought in DeMarter Rosen for whatever reason. Alex Caruso seems like a good hang at the very least at the hookah bars. Or would you rather go play with Joel and Bede and try to win championships? I mean, for me, I think the answer is obvious.

And if that is obvious to us, I imagine he feels maybe close to that. We need a name for this particular part of the off season where it's like after all the trades, all the free agency before camp, when everyone just starts kind of grumbling who isn't happy with what their team did, the Zach Levine's, the Ben Simmons.

We really need a designation for this period of time. This period of time is called NBA Media. Get your ass back home from vacation. I know. We're just looking at. our chops. Other than this, we were ready to talk about, like, Lori Market and Trade, like, part two, just like what his impact and specific role was going to be. Kevin Love may be playing. Yeah, so thank you, Benson. I mean, let's look at this from the Sixers point of view, too.

Let's say Dame is off the table. He just falls in love with Larry Nance, just Larry Nance becomes Bill Walton 2.0. Do you think Levine is the type of player who they could replace Benwith and still have as good of a chance, about as good of a chance to have a title run next season. Was, what do you think? I think heck yeah. Just because just that level of perimeter juice that they just

did not have last year in the playoffs. And God bless Tobias Harris, right? Like, he's a mid-range assassin. Doc Rivers has unleashed him to drop 21 points a game. And it's great. We love it. But like, that's been proven that that's not enough perimeter

heat in order to be serious postseason contender. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, I think it's instructive when we watch guys like Donovan Mitchell or, uh, Devin Booker. It's like, look, you need those type of guys on the perimeter. I'm not saying that Zach Levine is of the level of those two other cats, although I think he could get pretty damn close. When you pair that with Joel and what he's doing both offensively as an anchor and

defensively, now you cook. with gas, okay? Like, you've got a serious postseason offense when it comes to those two cats offensively. And then, of course, we know with Joelle and B, he's a walking, talking, competent defense anytime he's on the floor. So now, like, you're a serious threat, not just the fact that the guy can just spot up, right, and just let Joelle go to work one-on-one against guys because of the gravity that he's going to attract him because of the special level of shooter that he is, but also on the ball, one-on-one, he can beat dudes. And again, the Sixers have never had that in the process error,

except for that one year with Jimmy Butler, where they damn near beat the NBA champions that year, right? So they had one year of Jimmy Butler doing it for them. And then the rest has been us pretending that Ben Simmons is the next, I don't know, LeBron or whatever the hell we've been calling him for the last five years. This is a racer for the Isaiah Canon years, by the way, but I think we can move on to that. Noish Smith?

Noahe Smith was actually my second Roy Stair. I mean, Zach Levine would be unbelievable there. Just thinking about what guys like Seth Curry have been able to do in Philly or J.G. Redic.

And as you said, Jimmy Butler, and Zach Levine's kind of like the midpoint between those skill sets offensively. So if you could have a creator like that alongside Joel, that would be incredible.

The balance there, I think, would be off the charts. The question is, if you're Chicago, player for player, do you make that trade? I think they're probably motivated to if Zach decides he wants out and you like the security of Ben Simmons' long-term contract. But before all this shook out in terms of Levine's agency change, I'm not sure if you're the Bulls, you're looking at that and saying, I'm jumping at the chance to trade one of the best shooters in the world for this guy who, you know, as great as Ben Simmons is, you have to build your whole team around him.

So unless you've been planning to do that this whole time, it just creates a lot of different complications. Clearly they have because they signed DeMarie Rosen to a $50 million contract. So that wasn't in their plans. Just peanut butter and jelly those two. By the way, you know, so crazy, before the beginning of last season, I don't think people would have looked at Ben Simmons and Zach Levine as comparable players in the Simmons direction. Now we're looking at it just one season later in completely opposite direction. It's like, no, no, no, don't even think about comparing Ben Simmons to Zach Levine.

That's crazy. Yeah, I mean, I still think there's a world where Ben Simmons finds himself again. I mean, if he goes to Portland for Dame, it's actually a pretty nice situation where he can be something of a small ball five, have enough shooting around him and maybe tap into that. But like, from the six- I think this is a world where he finds himself, Justin, but he's got to go to like South America and do like ayahuasca some shit. Maybe then he'll find himself. Are you getting into your vacation? No.

No. Can we talk about the small ball five? Can we talk about the small ball five thing with Ben real quick, though? Because I've seen in this saga a lot of, oh, in trading for Ben Simmons, you'd be getting like a Draymond Green type player. You know, you know. Ben Simmons isn't really good at guarding Biggs. I don't know why we pretend that he is.

Like, as far as guards go, is perfectly suited for it relative to guys who are 6'1, but he's really good at guarding wings and he's really good at guarding guards. He's not Draymond Green. He's just not, he doesn't body guys up like Draymond does. He's the fight for rebounds like Draymond does. Just a totally different type of player, I think. Yeah, I mean, he wouldn't be as good, but I think you're also hoping to supercharge your offense in that regard

and just like be a team that's going to sprint on the core. I mean, I wonder if you have Nance, him, Roco, like, maybe you have enough big bodies just to throw at teams and just like to impede progress rather than like really, I mean, you have Nurkage there too to be the big guy in that situation. I don't know. I don't disagree with you, but I do think it would be a better usage of him to say it at least.

Oh, I think they should try it. Like, I think you should try to push him in that direction and make him competitive in those matchups. And from Portland's perspective, whether you're trading Lillard or you're trading McCollum, Simmons pairs really well with either of those guys. Right. Are there any other teams out there that we like as a trade partner?

I mean, the teams that you really hear are the Kings for some reason. I guess Beale just isn't an option. although that seems like the best fit anyone can imagine for both sides. The Warriors are probably the other one we should discuss because now they just have a potpourri of stuff that they can give to the Sixers, but I don't know if they have that one guy that they would need. Is anyone else out there that you guys like?

It becomes pretty dire pretty quickly. I mean, I don't, I just don't see it. You know, I know nobody's talked about this, but like, where is this guy supposed to go where a good player already exists, right? Like, that isn't, and that good player isn't Steph Curry. You know, like, yeah, okay, anybody can play next to Steph Curry. That's what makes him one of the greatest players of all time, right? Like, he will supercharge any situation, especially for a non-shooter.

He just makes your life so much easier because of the level of attention he attracts both on and off the ball to open up spots for non-shooters. Be like, who is the guy that you, like, Rob said it. Like, you have to make the team in Ben's image. Ben doesn't go to a team and fit into their image very easily. We've just seen that over and over. That's why it's like it becomes such a head scratcher when you start looking for destinations for this guy.

Like, you know, look, I think a team like OKC with all of their three trillion draft picks. They don't have any stars to send back besides Shay, but obviously that's a non-starter. I think somebody like OKC where it's like we have no we have nothing going on in the present. Nothing's going to be expected of Ben. All we're doing is building

a team so we can be strategic about putting the proper pieces around a guy like Ben Simmons. But like other than that, like what are we talking about? Like could he play in Memphis? No. Like where are we like sending this dude? You know what I mean? Like

like Utah clearly couldn't do it. And what they want to, I don't know. Like, we got enough on ball guys. Like, where are you sending this guy to? Whether it be a contender, a team that's already contending, or a team that's building from the bottom, I guess theoretically, Orlando's always looking for non-shooters. So I'm sure maybe they can cop with something together, fan.

Like, where does this guy go? It really has to be a team that's either in a rebuild already or ready to kind of transition their whole roster to do something different. Because even if you look at the stars who are out there, who you would want to pair with Ben Simmons, the rest of the rosters just don't accommodate

stuffing him in there. You know, like, in a perfect world, maybe the Hawks would be a candidate for this because Trey Young and Ben would be awesome together. But they just signed Klingapela to an extension. Klingapella and Ben Simmons do not work well. And they already have John Collins. So it's like, how would those pieces fit?

They don't really make sense. And you run into this every, you'll go team for team all throughout the league. There's a reason why we keep coming back to the wolves and the kings. And I mean, reportedly Ben Simmons wants to go to the three California teams, which is just incredible Sacramento erasure. I was like, that's what I wanted to ask you.

I was like, wait, is he like crossing out the clippers or is it the kings? Like, what's going on with that? This is four teams. Sacramento isn't a part of California, apparently. Just the Colorado. Yeah, no. It's really tough. I think the difficult part is the usual process for this is inverted, where it's the superstar who would fit on every team isn't necessarily available. We have these quarters

or this half dollar, and I would like your dollar player, where you please just make this exchange for me. Unfortunately, that's not really a good way to do business. And by the way, last year, we mentioned him at the top of the show, but Harding was the guy that was on the market to start the season. And James Hardin is the classic not Ben Simmons, meaning don't meet anywhere. I bet you I'll figure it out. If you need me to be heavily on ball,

I can do that because I'm one of the best point guards, playmakers ever. I can shoot off the ball. I can play either the one to two, the three. You pick, like, it doesn't matter. Like, you put me on any team that has serious aspirations of winning a championship. I don't care.

Put me next to LeBron. Put me next to KD. Put me next to what if you want. that shit's gonna work, right? Like, that's James Hardin. This is literally the opposite. Like, literally, you have to be ultra-specific about where this guy goes.

And how crazy is it that James Harden is at the center of another big trade, what-if scenario where if the Sixers had just been able to pull that off, trading Simmons and whoever else and whatever else for Hardin? That would have been wonderful. What a different world we would be living in today.

Yeah. Right. All right. Let's break here. I do want to get into the clutch of this all. So we'll take a break and we'll talk about that. All right. So let's get into some hashtag La Familia business here.

In addition to this whole Ben Simmons fiasco, it seems like Clutch has had a very active past week or two of the offseason. In addition to the Ben part of this, there was a report that was rescinded basically today or was updated today, even though it was actually a retraction, saying that Tyrese, also a clutch client, wanted to get out of Philly to the point where, like, Clutch was telling him not to go to community events. So basically, like, telling him not to feed the homeless or something because they would get too attached to him.

I don't know what is happening. It was walked back, though, and I guess Maxie just loves Philly again. So what an interesting past day that was. But this is also swirling at a time when New Orleans-Noehl has a lawsuit out against Clutch. because of the money left on the table when he didn't sign an extension with Dallas, signed with Rich Paul, got rid of Happy Walters, and the assumption that he can get more on the open market, did not get anywhere close to that,

and now has a $58 million lawsuit. So there's a lot going on here. Was, what's your just general sense of what's going on here? Are you feeling, here's what I feel. I feel like Clutch has become more part of the conversation on like just the day-to-day level than ever before. You know, it's interesting, right? I think the No-Lis-N-N-L situation, if everything in that, everything that Joelle is alleging is to be believed is, you know, that's a bad marker on, you know,

the part of Clutch and Rich Paul and the company. Like, that goes without saying. But, you know, for me, I've always felt. and unease about the level of scrutiny and attention that clutch gets. And I'm talking about before Rich Paul was doing like Sports Illustrated covers and all of that. Like his name was always coming up like where agents are griping or teams are complaining about their dealings with him and et cetera, et cetera. When he, what, all he was doing was agenting.

And I'm like, well, what's so different about Rich Paul that he's constantly getting this level of microscopic attention, right? Like people are fine too common and agents are talking about the tactics and it's always made me uneasy, right? Like it's obviously race plays a component in this and not even just race like class, the class structure of it all. And that Rich Paul, no, he didn't get an MBA from an Ivy League school. Yeah, he came in on the back of LeBron James. Guess what? A lot of y'all came into your industries on the backs of your daddies and mommies and granddaddies and nobody cries about it.

It's completely fine, right? I just think he attracts this weird energy and attention because, you know, he's perceived to be a street guy who's made it in a legitimate business that's usually traditionally been dominated by a bunch of MBAs, right? Like, by a bunch of white dudes. And I think that's what always makes the clutch attention uneasy. At the same time, you know, Rich Paul has done a pretty good job of cultivating an image that clutch is a cut above the rest is different.

We're willing to go to extra mile for our guys. We're like, you know, we're, we're special. They've done, you know, the work of trying to cultivate that image within the media. So that comes with its problems too, right? Like you want to attract that attention. You want to sort of craft that self image for your company. But that also comes with another side of that attention, right? He spun it in their favor.

Yeah. Right. And so, you know, I think the clutch thing, to me, It's actually calmed down where every time they do something is not a bunch of anonymous rival agents, carping and bitching about it. But, you know, they have some of the biggest clients in the NBA, so we're always going to be talking about them one way or another. I still can't believe that the NCAA tried to basically decertify Rich Paul. Crazy.

That was wild. That was a wild time. But, no, I mean, this Neurland-Demol thing hits it just that was, which is it's targeting the idea that Clutch, and really what's the heart of Clutch's reputation, which is as an agency that applies pressure and gets guys paid. And that's what makes this particular case so interesting and so evocative is clearly

this guy didn't get paid. He didn't get paid. He went there with the expectation he was going to get more on the open market. It did not work out. That happens to guys all the time. But this is the other side of being on. It just happened to Dennis Schrooter.

Right. When is our segment? Actually, we already did a segment on Dennis Schroeder in his age. I mean, it's previous pod. But no, I mean, it's the other side of that cutting edge in terms of sometimes you're going to get burned by your reputation when you don't pay it off in this particular way. When you tell guys or at least guys have the expectation that if they become an unrestricted free agent, they're going to get the bag.

And look, and there's something to what you just said, Rob, because I remember last summer when KCP's deal was reported. And Shams, like, there was apropos nothing. There was no reason to sort of report this detail. But Shams was basically like they've now recouped like something like 90 to 95% of the money that he turned down from Detroit in that original restricted free agent offer. And I was like, I get it. I get we do the backscratching thing for the agent. But that was clutch basically being like ultimately we made our man whole. Like that's they care about this reputation.

Right. Like they care about. I remember just reading that Sean's seat like, bro, like, you didn't even like edit the text from the agent. You just set that joint out. Not that everybody doesn't do that in that business and a newsbreaking business. But it struck me that like now Clutch wanted it out there that KCP walked away from a lot of guaranteed money with Detroit. And ultimately within that time span, in a better market while winning a championship, he made all of that money back and Clutch did that form. Yeah, I mean, I do think Paul's ledger has some mixed results in there.

There are a few flameouts. I think the Noel one is a clear example of that. But there probably are- But look at the Eri Bledso. I mean, right. There are a lot of examples where he got way more than probably anyone else would. I mean, he held Tristan Thompson out and got way more there. I mean, he pretty much leveraged the Cavs for for multiple years in order to get his guy's paid.

JR Swish his last contract with the Cavs. I think he's still getting paid. I think he got stretched. J.R. still getting checks from the calves, I think. Plus his golf endorsements, yeah. Rich Paul was wearing, he was wearing masks before Corona. I'm telling you, boy, that dude was robbing him.

J.R. Swish, the Tristan Thompson, the bled so straight of doing the opposite of Dennis Schroeder, of being like, before the playoffs come, I'm going to get myself paid. because God only knows what could happen after the playoffs, right? Like, they do a good job, man, of just being like, I think the Jemond contract is way more than should be necessary for a player of Jemar Green's level.

I think they do a good job of getting cats paid. And guess what? They paid a price for coming off as the bad guy in public. Yeah, I mean, they benefit and they are like taken down a peg because of that. People notice their failures and their success is way more because of that. I think my just like wonderment about this whole situation is if pretty much Paul extracts Simmons out of Philadelphia and Maxi also leaves Philadelphia. I'll be in a situation where teams are becoming more turf war for agents than ever before.

I think there are plenty of examples throughout the history of the NBA of agents having their technicals into certain teams. The Bucks were a prime example of this when Jason Kidd was head coach. That team was pretty much run by that agency. Lakers are an example of Paul having a lot of influence of that team. Are we getting to the point where like ever before, like more than ever before, we're seeing more Asian influence into like almost territories here where it's almost like sharks and jets going on more than teams versus each other. You're saying hypothetically if Tyrese were traded because he loves Philadelphia. Yeah.

Right. Yes, loves the community there. I don't know. It just seems, maybe it's just like more out in the open because it's clutch, because Paul, like, draws so much more attention. But it does feel like we're hearing the quiet parts out loud a little bit more than ever before. I think it's just more visible. And that's the clutch effect, as we've been talking about,

is this is an agency that gets discussed for better or worse, for whatever reasons. People are talking about what clutch does in ways they weren't talking about Happy Walters or Dan Fagan or, you know, like these other agencies who have relationships with teams. It's just a different level of visibility. I mean, Rob, that deal that DeRosen just got, like, if Clutch had did that deal, trust me, they would have found a way to be like,

this is what we do, baby. Like, that's a ridiculous deal, right? Like, that's an insanely good piece of agenting on the part of Aaron Goodwin and them to get Demar DeRoseon 90 million freakers. in dollars. You know, I just feel like if that was a clutch situation, it would have been way more publicized, and we would have heard way more about it, right?

I just think on the good and the bad side, other agents just don't get the attention that Rich Paul draws. And, I mean, the influence is real. You know, we're just talking about Ben Simmons wanting to go to the three, the quote-unquote three California teams. Not a coincidence that the Lakers have considerable clutch ties. Eric Bledsoe now a clipper. you got Draymond.

I think Moses Moody is represented by Clutch as well with the Warriors. Those are teams with established relationships with that agency. Not a coincidence. I've been reading

the CIA oral history that James Miller did and I got to say like I'm just getting bad signs of like this basically being packaging for the NBA.

I don't know. I'm clearly in a different headspace but I'm just like man this is just all really gross and I want like nothing to do with this. It's a whole other layer to the transverse. transaction game that just makes things way more of a pissing contest than anything that, like, we would

actually want to discuss. And it's just like, it's a little exhausting. I'll just say that. Well, I think there was a reason it was out of NBA coverage for so long, especially at a time where we wanted to mythologize players and we wanted to, you know, have a more romantic vision of the game. I think fans now want a more complete view of things. If you want to seek it out, if you just want to watch the games and, you know, celebrate players, you can do that. But there is, there is certainly an underbelly to the NBA, sometimes dark. sometimes not with all the dealings going on. Listen, they're substack for that now, my friend.

So you can get cash information. Do you want to talk about Klingapela real quickly? Sure. So today, on Wednesday, he signed a two-year $46 million extension, according to ESPN with Yelena Hawks. Interesting because he already had two years on his contract. So this should take him through his age 30 season with the Hawks after doing a good job, pretty much just completely being the Hawks defense and bringing them

back to respectability on that end this season. Rob, just first and foremost, the Capella deal, good deal, bad deal, fine deal. What do you think? Good deal. I mean, this is an Eastern Conference finalist team bringing back one of its best players, one of the better defensive players in the league last season. And I think most importantly, one of the guys who gives that team kind of a baseline so that all their young players can be upside place. You know, he is the steady foundation of that team in a lot of ways. So I like that they're kind of slow playing, you know, on Yaka Ongu's development and letting him grow into his game before trying to shoehorn him into a starting role. He's clearly ready to play now, but starting for a team that wants to contend is a very different

thing. So let Capella serve his time there, be a really good player for you, be on a reasonable contract for a guy who was, at least in the running to be on the ballot for a defensive player of the year, you know, an all defense candidate. I don't, I don't really see anything, anything to not be happy about with an arrangement like that. Good for Capella. Good for the Hawks. Yeah, this made me actually think about the Jared Allen deal in the sense that, you know, there was some mixed reactions to that deal. A lot of people felt like it was one of the worst deals of the offseason, just the idea that you would guarantee that guy 20 million a year, where to me, it feels like 20 million is basically, if you're a bona fide starting center,

not on the fringe type of starting center, but no matter, like a Javelle McGee, right? Like, no matter what team basically you're on in the NBA, you're probably going to start for that team at center. I feel like 20 million bucks is the going rate. And this, you know, counting bonuses and incentives is about $22 to $23 million into his age 30 season. This seems completely reasonable in the league where the cap is going to go up, although maybe not as crazily as it has in the recent past, but it's going to go up.

Seems like a reasonable deal for a guy who, like you said, Rob, steadied the team's defense. Before Clint Capella got there, the Hawks were the worst defense in the NBA consistently for like two to three years. He got there and automatically their league average just by getting this dude in their building. So yeah, I think this is a more than fair deal.

Yeah. Yeah, it definitely seems like a good thing to lock him up. I think my question is more of like, or just what I'm thinking about this is more in the broad sense. Does it seem like there are more extensions happening than ever before. I do wonder if this is a product of how knifey

free agency has gotten and then like how much like players have rested back control in free agency where they're like forcing trains and whatnot. It's almost like you lock in the deal for the player keep him happy and on the player's side you lock in the money as soon as possible because like maybe you won't even make

it to free agency. This all happens before that. Can I get the etymology of knifey and can you use it in a sentence place? Cookapel's new deal is Nike. I thought he said Nike at first. And I was like, damn, Nike is controlling free agency? That's crazy.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised. You know, it's interesting to, related to free agency and extensions, et cetera. I remember when LeBron and the decision happened and in the very next CBA, Dan Gilbert was like, we need to get rid of signing trades. because like, you know, LeBron wanted to go to this other team and, you know, because we still wanted to get something for them, we were able to do a sign and trade.

And like, it was the stupidest thing that they did this. Like, I did that signing trades were somehow what was forcing people to not want to live in the city of Cleveland for the rest of their life. And so to watch all of these signing trades now happen on top of extensions being, even more common than before. Like, I do think, like Rob said,

this is just a new paradigm, especially if, you know, if guys are willing to request for trades with four years left on the deal, like, what's the point of free agency at this point? What helps too, that the extension rules, which have been changed over, you know, recent years, they're not great still in terms of being a realistic option for players.

Like, it still behooves a lot of guys to hit the market. But they're just a little bit more reasonable. They're a little bit more friendly. Like a guy like Capella can get a near, you know, 15 to 20 percent raise over his salary going into a couple extra years on his deal. That makes sense for someone like him and his position. So case by case, I think it's just becoming a more realistic option. And whenever the next CBA is negotiated, well, I mean, who knows when that's going to be at this point? I think all parties are kind of incentivized to just hold down the forward and try to weather through some of the economic uncertainty.

But when that happens, I'm really curious to see what happens with the extension rules because there's no doubt that teams would like a little more. flexibility to get and keep their best players under contract. We'll see if they'll see if they bargain for that and allow themselves to do that. Yeah, for now it definitely seems to be benefiting the Capellas of the world, like the middle class player where it's like he wouldn't in the open market just get an automatic max so now he could lock in long-term security and go there. It's one of the first victories for the middle class in American history. Let's say that. Of this century anyway. Yeah, right.

All right, that's it for us. We'll be back next week and every week through the 2021-2020 NBA season, which starts tomorrow or in like a month or so. Thank you to Sasha Ashall, our Rich Paul of this podcast. Thank you for keeping the count right for us. We'll be back next week to see you.