The Ringer NBA Show - The Biggest All-Star Selection Debates | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 19, 2026

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann reveal their All-Star ballot picks and break down the toughest decisions behind the process, from positional battles and league stipulations to international player considerations. They debate Jalen Brunson vs. Donovan Mitchell, spotlight rising and overlooked candidates like Jalen Johnson and Michael Porter Jr., and weigh Devin Booker’s case before ending with the big question: Will LeBron James make a late push into the All-Star race? (0:00:00) Intro (8:19) Eastern Conference picks (40:43) Western Conference picks (59:41) Devin Booker (1:12:53) Kawhi Leonard (1:19:32) LeBron James Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Victoria Valencia and Devon Renaldo Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Social: Devon Renaldo and Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. Guys, the Jonathan Camingo watch is on. Every hour on the hour. We're going to check in on the hottest name on the trade market. First up, Rob, Jonathan Caminga, is he a good player or not? I'm going to go respectfully, probably not.

And that's the bit. All right, we'll check in an hour from now just to see if it's still the same thing. Frankly, my butt hurts from sitting on the pins and needles. I need a break. It's getting, it's agonizing. For the record, him not being a good player does not mean we can't do a 24-hour telethon to rehome him wherever it is that he would like to go. Well, we'll check in an hour from now to see if he is still indeed,

not that good and thus not important enough to talk about. But today's adventure is more about the good players in the league, the all-stars. We're going to pick our all-star ballots and go over specifically the big, tension points of the debate process. Unless you guys have anything else you want to get off your chest, Rob has some ferns in the background now. Well, I'm becoming a plant guy in my advanced age. You know, we need to find new challenges.

We need to find things that we can embrace that will force us to evolve. And in my history, I've killed basically every plant I have tried to raise. So we're coming back to it. You know, we're turning over new leaves, so to speak. That was good. Nice. That was good. Thank you.

Are we going to, Justin, are we going to be, like, massaging these points of tension out? Is that kind of what you're getting at? That this is a, you know, we're doing like an all-star spa kind of thing. I don't know, all of us together. Three dudes massaging thing. Or maybe like an after dark sort of thing, if you want to get into that crunch. Massaging after dark. That's what the people, that might change our classification on Netflix, but.

Honestly, we've not been thinking enough about that. Like, how do we get into, oh, weird subcategory, you know, like the moody thrillers starring Oscar nominees. Like, how do we get into that subcategory? What needs to happen? Maybe a little anime action. There's just a 13 reasons why Pascal Seaccom is not on the, well, I know how you guys felt about this, but I would say this was a relatively easy exercise for like 90% of it, but the last 10% was excruciating. I felt like there was like a handful of spots that were just pretty difficult. Do you find like that was because, Rob,

of maybe them switching up the way we do this now because now it's positionless. Did that affect you at all? I think when there were designated positions, it just made certain things impossible. Like, you would just have to accept that certain guys that might deserve it aren't going to make it because there aren't enough wild card spots and the positions don't quite shake out the way they need to. That was a fact of life. Now that there's no excuses and it's just like who are the 12 guys who are having the best season or the 12 best players or however you want to look at it. It streamlines the process, but I think it creates different areas where now it's challenging. Now all of a sudden, like, I'm really fretting over starter versus reserve for that like final

spot. I think some of those deliberations, honestly, were as hard as anything else. In terms of the positionless thing, whenever I hear people like fret over this and debate and go back and forth, it's like, I just think that as the facilitator, initiator, handler, these other words that we have kind of come up with to replace the fact that we just don't have pure point guards in the NBA anymore. They're at other levels, but they're not in the NBA because skill has just migrated over the other positions and size subsets that I think it's justified to go away from it. We end up with some conversations about players who are accessories to winning in a way where we enter these interesting conversations about impact. I think we'll get into some of these

guys who have different roles away from initiators and how do we properly value them against, you know, initiators, handlers on teams that aren't as good. I just think it kind of, but I like the starter thing too. I guess, I don't know, the starter thing is also, we're doing it purely on merit and there's also all the other kind of factors that enter into it about like popularity, you know, it's just criteria can differ from different from person to person. Right. So the way that they actually do this is it's still what? Like a percentage of fan votes, a percentage of media votes, percentage of player votes for the starters? I believe so. And then the reserves are still selected by the coaches. Okay. And the added wrinkle on top of this is after all of these players are selected, rosters are finalized, injury replacements are chosen, then they are separated into three teams, one of which is all international players.

I caught Donovan Mitchell on some sort of, I think it was like the NBA Instagram or something, doing a whole bit about how his grandmother came over from Panama and thus he sees himself as Panamanian. And I was like, oh, shit, we're going to, we're in for some real fudge and I was in this international mix. I mean, there is a lot of self-identification happening. And there's so many players, too. It's like grew up internationally, but came to play college basketball in America or vice versa. And how you classify those guys? Honestly, anybody's best guess. any towns, how would he be designated per these rules? I have no earthly idea, but I guess

Adam Silver is going to be tasked with figuring that out. Kat kind of fired his bullet trying to play, playing for the Dominican thing. And it was like, and then there was the whole Cala Perry thing to it too. And it's like, you know, he's wanting to go back. That wasn't, that's an interesting case. Do you guys, we're all, we're all of the age that you might remember this. But do you all remember, like in the late 90s when McDonald's had the all-star ballots, like the printed ballots at the stores? Do you all remember this? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Me growing.

Real hanging Chad situation. A lot of, you know, a lot of room to really work the ballots if you want to. I remember I was in such a desert of enthusiasm for the NBA because I'm from college basketball country. And people were just like, oh, God, you still hear some of that stuff. But I remember I grabbed a gigantic, I was so excited about it. I grabbed a gigantic stack of them and took them to school to my friends, to even my team, my coaches. And I remember one of my friends distinctly saying, nobody gives a shit about that. dude. It was like, I just

cause like, no, Jamal Madgeburn deserves to be there. It's just such a, I was going to say. No, Sean Kemp's still got it, you know. Do you remember the era? Like, yeah, who are we talking about in terms of players? Like, who are you excited to put on there? I think it was, I think it was, like, the Cleveland. Wasn't that in Cleveland? Anyway, it was, it was, it's a core memory, like a traumatic, like, oh, like,

I'm a little more into this than the normal kid my age. I don't know. But anyway, that's why you're here now. That's why we're here now trying to suss all this shit out together punching our digital hanging chads. It all paid off. It all paid off. So any other stipulations we need to account for? I feel like there's always like two to four different roles that they just kind of just assume and then they deal with it later. I don't think there's any other official stipulations other than Justin with the format you describes American versus international players. there will be some adjustment of additional players if they don't meet the eight and, wait, is it eight and 16?

How many do we need? Yeah. Yeah. So it's 12 and 12 on East and West and then it's divvied up from there. I've already heard from people rolling their eyes, basically suggesting that Adam Silver is going to take whoever gets voted in and basically fudge them into certain categories based off of things like Donovan Mitchell saying that he's Panamanian,

even though he was born in the United States. So, strap in for that, basically. I think I have seven. I think I have seven international players. Judge them by our, I mean, do you all know just off the top of your head? I have nine on mine. I do not know. And I don't care.

Unless I'm forgetting. This whole format is bullshit. Justin's a one world kind of guy. You know, no borders. Doesn't recognize any of it. Just like bring people together. That's what I'm all about, you know. All right.

Why don't we get to this Eastern Conference? Let's do this one first. So for starters, I've already looked at the, these guys ballots. And I know for a fact that all four of us agree that Cade Cunningham, Jalen Brown, Tyrese, and Janice and Teddicumpo are starters. Okay? Anything to say about? Yeah. How about these guys? I love to agree with the two of you. Okay. Can I just flag one little note here about Tyrese Maxie? He's currently averaging 39.3 minutes a game in the NBA. I was startled because I knew it was a lot. I knew that he was probably leading the league in minutes. When I saw

39. I was like, I can't remember the last time I saw that. And to that point, I looked it up. That hasn't happened since 2011-12. So the lockout season all the way back then. And even then, you could fudge and be like, well, that was like 50 games these guys were playing, right? Like something who was it? Based on the small sample. Kevin Love and Lou All Dang. Um, 2010, 11, there are four players. You guys want to guess? It's pretty funny. I mean, are any of them also Tibbs? players? One was dang. Yeah. Okay. I don't even know who to reach for. Who else do we have?

LaMarcus Aldridge, Monta Ellis, Wow. And Rudy Gay. Bucks Ellis and then, no way, that would have been Warriors Ellis, right? No. Wait, that's still Warriors? That would have been Warriors Ellis. Crazy. So. Okay. Wow. Well, first of all, Nick Nurse, ladies and gentlemen, this is kind of what happens around there. Also, though, I have to say Tyrese,

Maxi, for everything we say about his game, he is an explosive athlete, like the N10 speed is remarkable. The ease with which he creates, I think, also leads into this where you can just kind of play him more because nothing really seems arduous, also just impeccably conditioned. Like, that is a guy who can run all day, not just because it's easy, but because he's kind of built and trained for it. Yeah. So I thought that we might have a little bit of a three-way dance going on here for this last spot, including Maxi, because I think you could maybe add him into the mix of one of these last

positions here. I had for my fifth starter, Jalen Brunson. Rob, you had. Donovan Mitchell. Okay. And Kyle, you have. Honestly, this is probably a mistake, but I don't hate it. Jalen Johnson is who I had on there. He's been awesome. I like him. But yeah, that's too high for him, but it's okay. So no Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson for Kyle. But Jalen Johnson, yes. I can, let's just swap it because that was just a, that was a clerical era on my part. I've, I'll put Donovan Mitchell there instead. And we can talk Brunson versus Mitchell. I'm ready to do that. Or if you want to talk Johnson, we can do that as well.

But, Rob, you want to make the case for Mitchell to start us off here? This was the single toughest decision for me. And I just went back and forth with these two guys. Two of the greatest individual guard creators in the league, there's so much to recommend about the way they control pace, about the shots they're able to get to, especially at their size. Just like truly remarkable players. For me, it came down to a couple things.

if we're going to split the hair between Jalen Brunton and Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson has, I would say, a lot more offensive help than Donovan Mitchell does, especially with the health on the calves this season. And yet, in spite of that, Donovan Mitchell has been the more efficient creator and more efficient score,

and the Cavs have been better with Donovan Mitchell on the floor than the Knicks have been with Jalen Brunton on the floor. And like those two pieces of information, I feel like start to paint a pretty convincing picture as far as a tiebreaker goes, between two guys who I would be thrilled, with either than being a starter. They both absolutely deserve it. But to me, Mitchell might just edge it out by the tiniest of margins. Yeah. So I was swayed by those sorts of facts, too,

even in offensive EPM on Dunksin three here, they're both plus five and both both kind of on the same level. Unfortunately, Jalen Brunson, minus 2.2. He's the fifth worst defender in the entire NBA according to that metric. I think it checks out based on the eye test. The only thing that really swayed me was more recency bias. I don't know if you've caught the Knicks over the past three games in which they played without Jalen Brunson. Carl Anthony Towns basically is playing like he's starting a sentence and doesn't know where it's going to end up. And so it's hard to really shake that from my mind and overall about the Knicks that without Brunson, they just seem a little lost at sea. And so that's why I lean Brunson over Mitchell.

There's a lot of hand-wringing too that goes on with the Cavs and the Knicks. I feel like that is we over the course of the year have just talked about what a bummer that it's been that the calves haven't lived up to what we wanted from them in the off season but it's like we don't always hold the Knicks to the same and they're only a game apart. And if I'm looking at these two players,

I'm like, Rob, what you said about like the on-off stuff, I think is true. And then just I think the pliability, malleability, whatever word you want to use, them as players, I think Mitchell is a better movement shooter. I think he's a more creative passer.

I think that he is just a more dynamic offensive player than Brunson in general, and I just kind of prefer him. But I think that also in their – my preference aside, I think that their production plays that out too. I had an interesting thing that I was thinking about with this, because this comparison, their play styles, I think, will sort of tee up another archetype thing that's going to happen with a Western conference conversation, I think, about starters and an argument. but if you had these two players switch places, what do you think would happen to these two teams? I thought that this was pretty interesting. Would the Knicks be better if you just flat out swapped Donovan Mitchell for Jalen Brunson and vice versa?

Yeah, I think it's a fascinating thought experiment in part because Brunson both defines the best version of the Knicks and their greatest liability, which is the fact that they play him and Kat to complete negatives on defense as far as their positions go at the same time, and they rely on them so heavily. Donovan is not a great defender by any metric, by any, like,

there's no way to really spell it out that way. But he is a little stockier. He gives a little more resistance than Brunson does. And so I wonder if their offense is a wash, and I'm not, for the record, I'm not entirely convinced that it is. Would Mitchell being slightly better on defense actually change something about how the Knicks are able to sort of batten down the hatches and withstand some of the onslaughts that people throw at Brunson and Kat in particular?

I feel like Brunson's ability to do everything affords you the opportunity to be more defensive focused at the other positions and perhaps do so, like lean so much in that direction that you could lean back into more of an offensive first player and cat, whereas like it almost becomes an impediment with the Cavs personnel because you have a lot of guys who could do so much last year. They were good in part because the ball pinged and everybody was involved there. but I don't know when we start to get into the defensive side of things it does sort of like miss the point

because these guys are both pretty offensive dominant and I just feel like Brunson I've seen him excel more in big moments and with Mitchell like he's had a lot of big games but like he's had the opportunity both in last year's playoffs and even this season to be the guy and take the reins

and do more in order to push them over the edge and he really hasn't got that far I know we're like it is a game and a half between the two teams that's the thing point, and that really does weigh on you at a certain part when you're really just like getting down to the fine print. See, I almost come out at it the other way where if the Knicks had been so so clearly better than the Cavs, as they have been for most of the season, right? They've

been swooning of late. They've really been into such a messy stretch, both even before Brunson exited the lineup. And then obviously without him, as you talked about Justin, that I just don't find that difference to be all that meaningful. And for everything we've said and all of the kind of concern trolling we've done about the state of the Cavs. Here the Knicks are too, kind of in the mud with them, wrestling around, trying to find their season in the flow. That's my point. Yeah, I just, I think we've talked so much about the Cavs being a bummer.

It's like, do we hold, I don't know that it's necessarily that, like, both teams are bad. I just think that those two teams are closer together. Like, I don't know that the bummer energy for the Knicks has been as strong as it maybe should be at times. Like, because over the last week, I would say it has. It's really amped up lately. We just, we wanted the calves to evolve. And it's like we're just, it's two different types of bum here.

It's like we're waiting, we wanted the calves to evolve. And we just kind of want the NICs to get their shit together. And I think maybe that's causing us to be just a little more disappointed in the calves. But you're right. Yeah, this week it has had a little bit of an uptick. Yeah, we need to do a full Nix diagnosis at some point, perhaps this week, because that, uh, it deserves a much broader conversation there.

For sure. I could go either way there. I went Brunson just because of results. whatnot, but I could definitely see the case from Mitchell. So Johnson was definitely a lock for me, and I assume you too, Rob. Yes. But Kyle, just walk us through maybe the impulse at the very least to put him in the mix with the starters.

I know you said you took it back. Johnson? Yeah. No, this is like becoming a thing for me on any game that we do. Because you remember when we did the white guy draft, I like screwed up the DeMontas thing. It's just I'm a scatterbrain person. I think people probably already know that. about me. So anyway, I think that's all it was. I was just going through. And my, let's just be

honest, my enthusiasm for Jalen Johnson is just strong. And I will not apologize for that. I will defiantly plant my flag on that. But yeah, I would swap that. That was just a, that was just a clerical mistake. But the enthusiasm is deserved. To me, this is why he is just an absolute staple in Penn lock for this team. What he's been able to do holding the Hawks together through all of their injuries, the whole Tray Young situation, all the ups and downs of their season, he is sort of the immutable piece that has always worked, that has always made sense for every version of their team we've seen so far.

And so I think whichever guard you don't pick between Brunson, Mitchell, if you want to include Maxie and that group, that person is a lock. Jalen Johnson should be a lock. Scotty Barnes, I think, should also be a lock for this team. I just don't really see any argument against one of the most disruptive defenders in the world having a secure place as an all start of the season. Yeah, but just going back to the Jalen Johnson part of this, though.

The post-Trey era has been a little weird. Like the past five games are two and three, and Johnson has struggled the past three games. And so I don't really know what to make of this. Maybe it's just small sample. Maybe he's just sleepy. I don't know. But like his past three have been muted offensively.

He's only scored 13, 12, and 12. And I thought they might just like take off if only because they had something more productive in the Trey Young's, spot. I thought CJ would have just fit the overall sort of approach there. But like, there's been a lot of already like knife sharpening about like why is CJ rooting Jalen Johnson's life. And I have to wonder like, is this team going to start to fade for no other reason than perhaps like just like vibes. Like maybe the vibes they've signaled that like without Trey were thinking

to the future. I don't know what to make of it. I'm not so convinced they're going to fade, but they might just sort of languish around here. Right. Like on the on the brink slash the bottom part of the play-in bracket, that just might be who they are right now. And until some of their younger players can take meaningful steps forward, it's not really a Jill and Johnson question. It's like a Zachary Reza-Shea question, right? Like, these are the swing pieces that are going to define the future of the Hawks, or they're going to go for some huge kind of deal and land someone like Janus

and completely change the shape of their team. But for what it is right now, like, this is kind of who they are. Yeah, there's a next move, I feel like. There's an implied next move, whether or not that's an Anthony Davis type. Yeah, they've definitely, they've definitely, they need to find another core piece to sort of, you know, we're in that pivot thing and we're figuring out which direction we're going to go because as good as Jaylen's been, like you were saying,

there's just a lot of kind of wishy-washy pieces that aren't, that might be packaged and traded for whatever that next thing is. And we'll see. We're all LeBron early Lakers era where everyone was just looking around just waiting to be traded. The humor of that being like so many of those dudes went other places and we're good. That's one of the strangest teams of all time. We should look to do a revisit.

of that sometime. All right. So in addition to Johnson, we all had on the bench, Scotty Barnes, his Rob alluded to, Jalen Duren, Michael Porter, Jr.

Let's go. Michael Porter Jr. Incredible. He was an easy one for me. Oh, I mean, he hit a game-winning drive the other day.

Could you even fathom Nuggets Michael Porter, Jr. having a game-winning drive. It's the all-around scoring, the all-around offense. I don't even want to limit it to scoring. He's been a much-improved passer. this year within his role.

Like, he's just doing so much and is so clearly the best thing that the Nets have going. I thought he was like a pretty easy inclusion, as you said, Justin. Like, he just kind of makes sense as an all-star level producer and someone who's having an all-star level impact.

Just one of the top shot makers in the league. And I think I did this list initially more of like a stream of consciousness gut check where it's just like, oh, these are the guys that I know have been important this season. And MPJ was one of those guys, which is wild to say, but they have won as a recording

this Sunday afternoon, it's about 3 o'clock, only 12 games. At what point, especially in the East, where there's a lot of competition for some of these last spots, did you guys start to factor in just like being a dog shit team like the Brooklyn Mets? I don't care that much. Kyle, do you care about, like, does team record weigh on this for you? It's interesting because I think if you look at him and some of the guys who are fringers, like the Josh Gitties, the Seaccoms, the Lomelo balls, the guys who are sort of in that purgatory. I mean, it does sort of like imply a little bit of a conversation, right? And there's a funny thing with MPJ where the NBA is just such an economy of opportunity, right? Where, you know, MPJ, you said he's, you said he's one of the best shot makers.

And it's like, would we have said that in the past? Because there is sort of an astronaut gun thing where you're like, when you said that, I was like, he always was. But we're just giving him this great treatment just because he has this opportunity now. And he's an all-star. now. It's just kind of funny how all of that works. But I mean, wait, hold on. What's going on with the astronaut gun? The astronaut meme was a gun. He's about the moon format.

Yeah. Always was. Yeah. Memes famously great to talk about on podcast, you know, just to walk everyone through it. I held the fake gun up so you guys can, the social breakout will get this. It's so funny you mention that, though, because all of my references now are like movies that people may or may not have seen

or memes, which they definitely have seen. And so I feel like if you want to compare something to anything, the meme is actually the first impulse, and you have to fight that to get to the one that's a little bit more sophisticated. So you don't seem like a dork. So the meme is the people's reference is what you're saying. That's right. Yeah.

And I am a man on people. Do you guys remember the famous basketball scene in this movie? Do you guys, do you guys remember flubber? Do you remember them? Of course. I used to say, remember the little. The beads's hands were made of flubber. That's funny.

Do you remember that little, like, robot that flew around in his house that just like talked in memes. That was like a pretty big foreshadowing event, right? Honestly, I hadn't put it together, but you're absolutely right. Just pop to mine. That's just a look inside this brain. Justin, are you wearing a Sid shirt from or is that another reference? Is that from Toy Story?

What are you got going on there? Or am I lame and I'm like... This is Zero Skateboards T-shirt? Skater Justin Verrier? That's right. Let's roll, baby. What's that say about me? That sounds like a broken...

wrist waiting to happen. No, I never really had a full-on skateboarding phase, but I definitely had like a poser phase in the same realm that I think. Maybe everyone did when Tony Hawk Pro Skater came out and thought they were into skateboarding, but like you did. I had a board. I may have popped an alley and a shove it once or twice, but beyond that,

I was just going for the vibes, man. I mean, here you are doing everything you can, you know? Just being a Superman. Lifting up. No, no. I don't know. You won't allow it? No, please no.

I never could have done that because I was showing up to school in, like, you know, a lot of basketball shorts and a lot of like and one gear, you know. If I had made, there would have been the big like, let's all have a conversation about Kyle if I had pulled a stunt like that. So that was not on the table for me. It was just not going to happen. See, I think there's a way to merge those worlds. I think you could have been the one person, Kyle, to bring it all together. But you thought you were above it, you know? You didn't see your calling right in front of you.

We're kidding around, but there's a really cool thing where like basketball and like skateboard culture and hip hop. It's kind of mashed it all together in a way where like vans sort of, I don't know. It's that's another, that's a deeper cultural pod that we'll probably never do. But maybe we can talk about it. One can three. They want this trio for is just talking about the cultural significance. Hip hop and skateboarding. People are just banging my door down.

Right. One thing I will mention is Jalen Dern is on this list. One, because the Detroit Pistons have 10 losses, which is only two more than the Oklahoma City Thunder after last night's loss, which is pretty significant. And also, they didn't come to an extension before this season, Dern and the Pistons. This dude's about to get fucking paid this offseason. Deservingly so. Keeps expanding his game. Has become just such a more interesting offensive player than I would have ever anticipated a year or two ago.

What he's been able to do as far as the playmaking, the ball handling and transition. what he can be in a half-court offense. This isn't just like a guy who's finishing lobs, although he's finishing a lot of lobs. A backbone of a real-deal defense, someone who's actually versatile within the way the Pistons play on offense, has just put himself squarely into the category

of like not really ever the problem. You know, even in the games, the Pistons lose, it's not really a jail-endor an issue. Maybe it's a lack of shooting from the other spots. Maybe it's certain guys like, you know, not being able to make the most of their opportunities. But he has just become such like a rock-steady contributor for, as you mentioned, Justin, one of the best teams in basketball right now.

It's funny you use the word rock because I saw that slam tweeted out that picture of their cover where it was the silhouette. And I think it says something about Jalen Duren's physique that when I saw the silhouette, I was like, that's Jalen Duren. I just, I don't know. If they tweeted out like my physique on there, they'd be like, is that grimace? I don't know who that is. Or I don't know.

Did you guys just draw like the arreases? Kyle. The shape of like a Reese's Christmas tree is like just a, that's a rough shape of a thing. Please don't sell yourself short, Kyle. You are at least the hamburger. You know, I wouldn't say you're full grimace. Yeah. Speaking of Reese's, man.

You guys big on the seasonal Reese's? I'm all over the place today. I'm sorry. Seasonal Reese's? First of all. Everyone is big on the seasonal Reese's. Like the Easter egg Reese's, the heart reases, the Christmas tree wreaths. These are obviously elite candy.

I'm going to let you in on a little bit of a candy hack here. We live next to a Walgreens and I go all the time and I get candy. That's what it's for. That's what Walgreens is for. It's for candy or medicine. So you go there. The key time to get the seasonal Reese's is when it's like criminally early. Like right now, we're like a month away from Valentine's.

You got to get it now. When it's Valentine's Day, don't fucking get them because they'll be chewy. They snap when they're fresh right now. That's the key. You got to get it when they snap. Why are you talking about Reese's like you're going to a farmer's market? My guy, they do not snap. They're processed candy.

The fresher they are, they snap. They don't like, you can't have like a soft break. It's got to be like a snap. This is the Paul Hollywood. I need my biscuits to have a snap sort of thing. And I'm always like, why do I need it to snap? I don't like it snap me. I don't like it chewy.

You like a chewy biscuit? Yeah, I like a chewy everything. Chewy like cheddar scone maybe. I don't, yeah, too. I'm just saying it's got a, you don't want a chewy wreaths. You want a cookie to be like to break off in like one one. Am I talking about fucking cookies or am I talking about races, Justin? Well, here's the thing.

Justin is talking about everything all at once because we're having four conversations at once. Justin is talking about technique, right? A bake on a baking show. We're aiming for precision. What Kyle is describing is a figment of his imagination that simply does not live in real life. That you are just so wrong. I actually feel bad for you, Rob, for a lot of reasons, but that you haven't had one that's fresh.

And I get this from my father who actually has memorized the numbers on the bottom of Reese's packaging. So maybe I was influenced by him. Just go, please tweet at me and tell me I'm not crazy, people. Let's continue with the All-Star. Living proof that trauma is inherited right here on the group chat podcast. That's right. So the last two spots in the Eastern Conference,

I'll be honest. You could sell me on anybody here. Sure. I ended up with Towns and Norm Powell. Rob, who did you have? I also had Towns, and I had Franz Wagner for my last spot. That's a curveball. I mean, yes and no.

It's not like, again, it's a similar conversation in terms of, oh, the teams are sort of in a similar place in the standing with the magic and the heat. Also, I think with the heat, there's a little bit more diffusion of do you go with Bam or do you go with Norm, two guys who are carrying very different sorts of workloads for that team. I think Franz has been pretty clearly the best player for the magic all season and is sort of like unimpeachable in what he's been doing.

Another guy who is like so distinctly not the problem for the magic when things go wrong that I feel totally fine rewarding him. But I agree with you like this last group, it's not the most inspiring collection of players. Kyle, who'd you have? For my 12th spot? Yeah. I went with for 11.

No, I had Duren for my 11th. spot and then... Well, who did you ever your 10th spot? Scotty. Okay, so who were he missing? Oh, you have Norm and one other guy. Okay. I had Norm.

I mean, it's not like, at this point, it's just kind of like a mush of guys. But my 12th was Siakum. Seacom's numbers are better this year and he was an All-Star last year. And if we're talking about bad teams, I'm just like, yeah, it's not his fault that, I don't know. Rob, if you're big on the, it's not their fault logic, you keep bringing that up. Yeah, it's not, Pascal's been good. his numbers are better. And it's like,

MPJ's on a bad team. I just, I'm kind of like, how hard do we ding Pascal for Halliburton, you know? I think you've found my limit, which is the Pacers have been so bad. And Pascal Seaccom is great.

I'm never going to like push too hard about Pascal Seaccom being an all star because he does so clearly deserve it. It's not his fault. He also, I would not say, has like pulled the Indiana Pacers up by their bootstraps with the way he's played.

Clearly their best player, again, I'm really not arguing it. too much, but I think you have to have a particularly strong case if your team is as bad as Indiana is. And his case is just very good and not overwhelmingly so. Very good is good enough for me, but yeah. Worst team in the league is kind of where I really had the line set there. Yeah. I'm surprised more by Franz here, Rob, because as I'm looking this up, I didn't consider him because he had only 25 games played. Now, his minutes are pretty similar to Janus. He's in the 800 range.

Yep. And so for that reason, I guess he should be included in that, but 25 games, man, that's, that's tough. I got to say, I just don't mind so much. I think part of this is with the 65 game criteria for all the big boy end of season awards. For All-Star, I am softer than ever about actually caring about how much people have played. Like, there's a certain kind of feel over have you played enough to qualify. And if Franz doesn't meet that threshold for you, I get it. for me, if you're playing like a star, I don't really care if you played 24 games instead of 30. You know, like, that ultimately doesn't really bother me so much. But there are a couple here that I thought we should at least address.

I mean, like, Giddy fell off the face of the earth because I think he was on track to be an All-Star earlier in the year, right? And then the Lamello thing, I think is interesting. I mean, if you're just, we get down in this range where it was like, there were arguments, and I just thought, I don't know, if y'all wanted to quickly just strike those down just to address them. Yeah, I've got a long list to discuss. Just quickly, though, Cat, I kind of did it by default because he's been, by his standards, pretty bad.

Did everyone else kind of like just basically bite down when they wrote down his name? I think especially with the past few weeks that he's had, where the kind of like wild decision making that is always part of the town's experiences there, but also just like some really damning effort in terms of his actual investment in these games. Games that as we talked about when kind of went through Jalen Brunson, like he's critical. to their ability to survive them. And yet he's hanging out in the back court, like not getting back into plays. That's really tough stuff to see from an All-Star.

And yet, like, he is just productive enough. He is just effective enough. He is certainly maddening. And I would say by far the most maddening All-Star that we're going to select today. But I don't see anyone in the honorable mentions that we're about to go through that has such a strong case that they would nudge him out,

given how important he is and can be and what he ultimately does, liver, even if he gives you a lot of extracurricular bullshit with it. Yeah, it's tough because he has all the typical stuff that, like, makes you want to pull your hair out, but he doesn't have like the counterbalance of like shot making like he had last year in order for it to just like kind of push it down a little bit. But I put him there. He fits the bill of everything you'd want from an All Star 2.

Nix are, especially in comparison to some of these other teams that we're talking about in this range significantly better than for instance the heat. I went Powell over Bam, in part. because it feels like the offense is so over-reliant on Powell's skills. And if anything, the way that they've jerry-rigged their offense this year with the no-picks and all this other stuff seems to be a shining spotlight for Norm. And also on top of this, you could get into the defensive stuff. But Bam's offensive season has been pretty poor. His effective field goal is actually the worst of his career at this point, even though he is shooting three. So

that plus Norm just having a kind of awesome story in season, I went norm over some of these other guys. Yeah, I think I always have a natural inclination with teams like the heat to lean, okay, what is their more important side of the ball and who is contributing the most to it? And they're a defense first team. Bam is by far their best defensive player. He is the guy who's holding all of that down. It is moving, like that argument in and of itself. And despite what he's not giving you an offense this season, he's one of the best defenders in the world. Like that alone should get him into this conversation. But I'm with you about Norm where even though the heat or a defense first team,

Norm's ability to score in one-on-one situations is really what makes the heat viable at all. It's the only reason their offense works in this current form is because of him and his ability to make the most out of those situations. And so because they would sort of fall apart if he was not exactly this good,

I'm with you that if we're going to give it to a member of the heat, Norm makes sense as that guy. Yeah, there's the sides of the coin thing going on where you're right on offense. It's like Norm's ability to advantage create in that system that is like rotate kick, rotate kick, that is the catalyst for what they do.

But then on defense, we just have this perpetual thing with Bam where he is just always sort of underappreciative and then we want to like really value him and lift him up. But then he kind of gets compressed by some of that stuff. Like he's never quite become a primary in the way that we hoped and the offense hasn't really leaped the way that we hoped. Because whenever I think about Bam,

I always think about that scene in Mad Men, where they were talking about, I think it's whenever they're going to like Sterling Cooper, Draper Price when they were talking about Lane and they were like, Lane should come what he was like, can you do what he does? And they're like, it's because they can't really fully appreciate or understand what he does.

And I feel like that happens a lot with Bam. So I would lean towards Norm in this situation too, even though I don't know, it's interesting because there's a scoring gap between them, but Norm takes more threes than he does. Bam takes more twos. Still, I'd give the edge to Bam, to Norm.

Sorry. Norm's a real bookkeeper for the heat team is what you're saying? that's interesting no BAM's the bookkeeper I think yeah do you want to audit this metaphor yeah the metaphor

just falls completely apart no wait I'm saying BAM is Lane I'm saying because they don't understand oh I see so we so this case so you are the bookkeeper and then now we don't understand

what it is that you're trying to articulate to us anyway my short list includes BAM out of bio Josh Giddy, fuck yeah, if he was healthy. I actually think he would have had a good case. Can we pause right there, Justin?

How does it feel for you to not put Josh Giddy on your All-Star team? Feels bad. Feels real bad. Yeah. 15 and 15 with him on the court at the Chicago Bulls. Sure. 500. That's going to get you somewhere in the east.

4 and 7 without. He hasn't played in a couple weeks now. I just, down off doesn't pop really in the way that you would hope for, too, if you're going to make a case for a guy being excelling above a bad. team, but 1999 and 9, practically, they're not just giving that away, fellas.

Absolutely right, yeah. He is fully deserving dot, dot, dot, dot, of being on an honorable mentions list. This is where it makes sense to have him. Okay. I also consider Seacum, as Kyle mentioned. I also consider Desmond Bain. I also consider

Concanipple. Hell yeah, you did. Anybody else I'm missing here? Evan Mobley. Yeah. Got it. at least look at him. Yeah. And I will say,

Joelle Embed kind of forcing his way back into these conversations, too. He's up there in the production. If you look in the, the lists of guys

producing to a certain level, I mean, Mb-I know that sounds very vague, but Embedd- Embedd-s numbers look a little more increasingly Embeddy lately. Yeah.

How hard did you guys look at Khan, though? I don't mean to just be a ringer-homer because we're very much team Khan at this point. Sure. But we come by.

honestly. Like, that is an organic enthusiasm. That's right. I just, the efficiencies there, they've only won 15 games, but a lot of these teams, as we mentioned, aren't doing well.

I guess he's just not the focal point of that team and the way you would like a guy from a bad team. But 195-4, it's not bad. I really don't have a strong argument against other than he's a little outclassed by some of these other guys who make it.

It's less like that there's something wrong with Khan and more that being an all-star requires you meeting a certain pretty lofty standard. And Khan is almost there already, if not there already. So really feels like a matter of time for him. I think especially because of all of the things he brings to the table offensively, like how comfortable he's felt with the ball this season, that projects him to be like a real star for a long time.

So welcome to the 2027 All-Star team, Connipple. I mean, the only guys that he does sort of like group well with offensively or even pass them. I mean, the Barnes, the Duren types, they just play the other side of the ball so much better. I mean, there's a trade-off there. But Khan is, is Khan just going to end up being Devin Booker? I was thinking about this this morning.

I was just like, criticize that comp. He could shoot that well. Yeah. Booker's shooting. We'll get to that. Yeah. Well, it's always been kind of up and down. Like, Booker's always been one of those guys who,

even when he shot looks beautiful and looks textbook. And by the percentages, you're always like waiting, like, where is this sort of like 40, 42% three-point shooting season? And that's not really who Devin Booker is for a variety of reasons. And so if Khan is doing that and looking like Devin Booker in terms of the role he plays within an offense for a long time, like, that'd be an unbelievable get for the Hornets to land that kind of player. Yeah. All right.

When we take a break, when we come back, we'll talk about the West. All right. Let's talk about the West now. First four, I think you're pretty straightforward. we got SGA, we got Nicole Yokic, we got Luca Donchich, we got Victor Webenyama. Fifth spot, this one was tough.

And I think you guys probably picked between two guys if I were to just guess. I also was thinking about a third guy really hard here. So I have Anthony Edwards. I thought very hard about Steph Curry, but as I was going through the process,

Jamal Murray, especially lately, it's got a big old case. I'm so proud of you. I love this for us. us. I've come a long way. You really have. Were you a Murray-Denier? What's the history here? Well, Justin's historically

been a bit of a nugget skeptic overall, I would say. That's right. Skeptic is the exact word. Yeah. Hershey's Nuggets? Jesus Christ. No more chocolate talk. So, talk about splitting hairs. Just between Edwards and Steph, it's

really, I have the beholder at this point, especially doing this pot on Sunday right after Anthony Edwards went off for 55 in a loss we should mention to the San Antonio Spurs. I would say the off-core stuff, the numbers for Edwards, doesn't reflect well upon him, and it does on Randall, which got me thinking a little harder about this. But the clutch numbers for Edwards, have you seen these lately?

They're nuts. I was cruising through Wolves Reddit, which was just a real brand of psychopath I have to mention. You guys are doing good work out there, though, because they had this stat, which is that in the clutch, he's shooting 85 effective field goal percentage. Yeah.

Right? A Steph Curry Open 3, wide open 3, has the effective field goal of 75. Janus at the rim, effective field goal 77.6. Edwards, albeit on a very small sample size, in the clutch,

has a better shot expectancy than any of those. You know, but not that small a sample size. Like, the Wolves are in a fair number of these games, and he's third overall, and clutch scoring per game. So it's not like he's a third or fourth option who's putting up these kinds of numbers. It's like brain melting

what he is doing in crunch time. Like the degree to which he has been better than every other star in the league is like orders of magnitude. So hard to argue against Anthony Edwards, save for the fact that Steph Curry is his competition. And like I'm always a little step-pilled in terms of the influence that he has on the game.

And I would say especially what he is doing to clean up just a consistent mess in Golden State. I found to be pretty persuasive. Ant is the head of the snake on a great Western conference team. He is the singular reason why they've been able to get away without playing a point guard. But Steph is the only reason anyone with the Warriors basically has a job right now. So, like, that I do find to be, as tiebreakers go, like, that is the kind of thing that sort of puts you over the top is the degree to which the Warriors make everything difficult.

and Steph does his absolute best to make any of it look easy and somehow succeeds. Yeah, this is what I was alluding to with the Brunson Mitchell thing where it's like, you know, Brunson and Ant both have a little more ISO, a little more pound on the ball in their game, where it's like Mitchell and Curry to varying degrees to be clear, because nobody comes close to Steph in that sense in terms of the way that they're able to sort of be play some off the ball and do things like that. But I think, and there's also the, when you said influence on the game, Did you mean like literally one ball game or do you mean like his overall influence?

I was good. Because if we're doing that, you mean one game. I mean the influence he has on the shape of a game. Like look what the Hornets had to do to just like wrestle with the idea of guarding Steph Curry. Like throughout all this weird gimmicky stuff following him into the bench and out of bounds. Like that is the kind of player he is where he sort of breaks everything that you think you know about basketball. And in order to attempt to guard him, you have to throw your system out. You have to throw away all of your principles and do something wildly different because that's Steph Curry and he demands that even now.

Purely in production, though, like you have to kind of adjust it because of their pace of play in their minutes. But like per 100, they're like very, very close in terms of their output. And then box plus minus, they're like lockstep. They are together. And there's also the thing I hear people, you know, not to go straw me in here, but I have heard this that people doing the legacy thing of, you know, it's stuff, it's Bob. You know, it's like, you could go the other way with it with Ant's progression. And I tweeted a video about this of his like just development and how much better that he's gotten over the, the shooting has been integral to it. He's shooting the ball better than Steph.

Granted, Steph is playing in tougher situations because the Warriors make everything harder for Steph. But, yes. Ant's progression man has just been so impressive with shooting the ball and his handle has improved so, so, so much. You know, I think he's, I think you be in your right mountain to say that he deserves to get this last spot. would say that Ant's moments, his best moments this season have been much louder than Steph's, which is odd to say considering Steph's history. And to that point, Edwards has seven 40 point games already. Steph only has four. But I think that's the tradeoff. Ant's success is often very loud, whereas Steph, to Rob's point about just all the effects he has on the rest of the offense,

just his movement off the ball, creating opportunities for their guys. It goes a little bit more quieter these days. But those loud-ass moments are fun as hell. And so I give Ant the, the, the, the lean here. I'm completely cool with it. In fact, I mean, I had a moment thinking about how certain are we that Luca Donchich

deserves to be on this team over these two guys. Like maybe the argument is not Steph and aunt, but not Luca. I ultimately ended up putting Donchich among my starters, but like he, there's some funkiness around Luca

and the Lakers and has been all season. His defense is such a huge problem for that team. And again, contributes to why they're in such a weird place. There's none of that with Ant, Steph isn't an amazing defender, but he holds it down enough. Ant isn't the most dedicated off-ball guy in terms of monitoring what it is he's supposed to be doing. But he's such a bulldog when

the ball is right in front of him and is such a terror in transition that he kind of makes up for some of that stuff. I just don't think that there's like a huge chasm between Luca and either of these two guys, which to me says it's kind of a similar race as it is out east where any two of these three as your starters feels right to me. I was with you until I saw the Lakers line. last night without Luca Donchich. And both of their centers, we should be fair. But holy shit, there's not a lot there. And LeBron, as much as he's had moments,

it's just him trying to prop up, like the Marcus Smarts. And we got some Kobe Buffkin significant run there toward the end. Like, it's pretty dark. And so for me, that like, that tilted that Luca, despite the fact that he's probably doing too much and not enough defensively, at the very least they need that in order to be even competent these days. they really do. You're talking about the defense.

My God, the other night, that Hornets game against the Lakers, like Ceyon James, not really known for boogieing off the dribble. He just cooked Luca in a one-on-one where I was like, good Lord, at least like have some pride about it. Like, it was really sad, man. I mean, I'm a big Luca fan, always have been. But it was, yeah. Well, it's a team-wide problem.

If you're under 25 years old and a reasonably talented NBA player, you will have 15 points against the Lakers. Like, that's just what it's going to be this. season. Jamal Murray, the last guy here. I think the playmaking difference between him and these other two guys you mentioned is significant enough that I started to take note. Also the results without Yokic.

So he's only played seven of, I believe, the 10 games that Yokic has been out as recording this. They're five and two in those games. He's scoring 31, nine and a half assists and five rebounds. It's pretty fucking sick. Lordy. And the percentages. 33, 42.

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I would say that the percentages are just, and he had like 45% from 3 right now or something crazy. He's nuts. Yes. He has 45 on the season right now. It's unbelievable. I just think there's a totally different level of regular season focus from him.

This has been kind of what we've been waiting for from Jamal Murray for years, is can he be this guy for 82 games, or at least however many of them he's available to play? And the focus he's bringing, or really just like the consistency of that focus, endurance of that focus from game to game within games, within challenges, within matchups. He just has it all. Like, he has it all on an all-star level. He has it all in a way that is carrying his team, as you mentioned, Justin.

Like, he's not just putting up numbers. He is taking the nuggets through what has been like a pretty hellacious injury season for them. They've missed so many guys for so much time. And he is the constant. And I don't think we ever would have been prepared to say that about a previous version of Jamal Murray. Like, he's absolutely delivering right now. I mean, career high pick and roll in isolation numbers for him. Balls in his hands a ton.

And also, this is another nice thing about this that is just good for you is, this is kind of, it's easy to forget that this is kind of an undertaker razzing up out of the coffin kind of thing for him. Where people were talking about him after the Olympics, they were like, man, it's like, Murray's just not the same dude anymore. And he's come back and been like, I absolutely in the same dude. And yeah, love to watch him play, man. He's been all one. Let me tell you, Kyle.

people may have been saying it, those people are dumb. Like, Jamal Murray is a balls out competitor. And in pretty much every big game that matters, yes, there are the occasional blips where he's injured or recovering or in a weird spot. Overall, like, that is a guy I will bet on. That is a guy I feel comfortable, like basing the future success of a team around.

Like, there's a reason why the Nuggets have been so invested in him, despite all the weird kind of quirks of his regular season performance to this point. Are that dumb? Or did they just like respond intelligently to the information that was provided to them, which was he was pretty bad in that Olympics. And then he was just like missing games because he was like staying out too late watching UFC or whatever. He wasn't good in the Olympics. I'm not going to pretend that he was good in the Olympics.

But like you can respond to the bulk of the information that tells you who a guy is on a basketball court. Or you can respond to the shiny thing that flickers in front of your face and says, oh, in this second, this is what's happening. Or maybe shame just works, especially on. on celebrity basketball players. Come on. This is, this is not shame taking over Jamal Murray's career. This is such a...

Because in some small part because of... I think that happens all the time with players. Look at Hardin like every cup, three years all of a sudden, like, jolts back into place because people have seen doing enough. Do you think James Hardin has had dramatic turns of course in his career? Certainly about defense, yes. Not recently, but in years past.

What is happening right now? He'll do it for 12 games. And then he becomes James Harden again. Over time, we all become who we are. And who Jamal Murray is is not the guy who he was in the Olympics. There was no reason to believe that. I think he's had some more craters in his career than you're willing to give a credit for. Hard disagree.

Okay. I always call Harden the fainting goat. Like, if you had a fainting goat in a group of goats, you know, you'd be like, yeah, he looks like a goat. But then you get to that critical moment and he just falls over. And I'm not, I just don't think that Murray is. the same type of thing. But this is an interesting, Rob's positive kind of optimism

and then your, that argument I think was a great encapsulation of your two personalities. I would like to say I'm a realist and Rob's an optimist, but what else I'm going to say? I think the big hit here is just the whole stat about Nicola Yogish never playing with an All-Star.

I just don't know what people are going to do in order to pretend like he's a sad child who hasn't eaten in four weeks. Okay. He's still the best player in the world. I don't care how people frame it. All right. So we all agreed on Murray as a bench player in addition to Murray. We all had Denny Avdia, because of course, Kevin Durant and Chet Holmgren. Surprise we all had Chet. Yeah, this has been a bit of a transformation for me. As I've been going through my process of figuring out the All-Stars, I talked through it with Zach on his podcast. And originally for

this spot, I had Alper and Shangoon. And ultimately, I ended up trading Shangoon for Chet Holmgren. And I think some of it is just like... Because you were shamed into it? No, I was not shamed into it. I think some of it has been the way the Rockets have played of late.

Some of it has been trying to really drill down and appreciate what Chet does defensively for the thunder and how much of that you want to attribute to the wide array of incredible defenders they have. But bottom lines, he's one of the best defensive players in the world. And I want to reward that.

I want to reward the consistency of that. I want to reward the fact that there's not really a blemish on it. And even if you look at him offensively and say, oh, Chet isn't carrying the workload of some of these other high-end creators who are going to be All-Stars, he occupies like a very specific role. And he does it at an incredibly high level. And there are not many people who could just like plug and play what Chet Holmgren is doing. We like to pretend they are.

There are. And then every trade season, we think about like, oh, who are the guys that this team that really needs a three-point shooting, rim-protecting big can target. And the answer is basically no one. Like, there's a couple guys who fit that brief. Chad Holmgren is probably the best of them right now. And I think that, for what he has been this season, might be slightly more valuable than what Alper and Shangun is doing for the Rockets right now.

Yeah, I kind of got into a do-the-Rockets deserve two kind of a thing. I know that we do this like representative conversation because I was looking at them and it was making me think about the distance between the rockets. I know the Sons have been a hot topic on this on this pod lately and in the NBA space in general because they're feeling feisty right now and I don't blame them. But like I kind of got into a does Booker deserve have any kind of like rationale if you kind of look at the way those two teams and his production. I don't know.

What do you all think about the rockets having two? Do they absolutely deserve two? I don't know if they absolutely deserve it. I think it is odd that if you give two to the Rockets to not give two to the thunder. and the competition is much more stiff in the east where it feels a little bit easier to put two pistons or two of Knicks for instance on there. It's just historically,

I can't imagine a team being this good not having two representatives. And it is odd because of Chet's like just wholesale production. The numbers in comparison to a lot of other guys we're talking about here is starkly lower than that. But the fact that he has such extreme efficiency, he has a 63 effective field goal percentage,

if he was just producing but just doing it on limited opportunities like I could see that but he's just making the most of what he's being provided. Yeah. And for that, it's like those couple things

combined with the defense which is a huge part of it. It's probably this biggest selling point. He's what? Easy number two defensive player of the year and probably going to win it if Victor doesn't play as many games as he ended doing it.

Rudy's been good too. Yeah. Rudy's in the mix for sure. But all those things combined is why I gave Chet the Edge over Booker if I'm going to fast forward that. Yeah, so do we want to break that down? Because I basically have

Chet and Booker, but no Shangoon. Kyle, who did you end up with those three? Did you have room for all three of them? I ended up having the Shingun versus Booker thing is one that I really thought about. And then I was like Booker versus Keonté George, but I'm not going to go there. That one just if you lay the numbers out is pretty interesting. You're just leapfogging Lowry, though. Yeah, well, I didn't have, Lowry was it as much? No, I didn't think a lot about those two guys. I was just kind of like numbers-wise laying just for a thought exercise, Booker versus Keontte.

No, I ended up having Shingun and Durant. Shingun's production, just he's so integral to their style. Just, you know, he's been a good playmaker. Obviously, we talked about him being the big boy of the quarter. I think that alone gives him some conversation for getting in. But what was the other guy that you asked me about? Yeah, I had both of those guys in. No, yeah, it was for Chet, Shangoon, and Booker.

I didn't end up putting Booker in, but I did have Chad in. I didn't as well. I think Kyle hit it, though, where it's like, it's tough to split the Rockets because Durant's just like, his resume is always so sterling because the percentages and the shot making and even those games when Shengun was out, like, how important he was to the team while he wasn't there. But then when you think about the Rockets overall, he's so integral to like how they're playing.

They're basically pushing teams around, especially on the offensive boards. And that's really like Shen Goon is the shining example of that. And so if anything, I had a tough time splitting the votes between the two rockets. And that's why, in addition to Booker's percentages and some of the lack of shooting success that he's had this season, that's kind of why I went two rockets over Booker. But I could see the case for Booker because did not have him on there is probably the one thing where you're like, fuck. That's the one thing that jumps out to you. Well, let's take this piece by piece.

as far as the Rocket specifically, I initially had them kind of on similar standing as well, as I alluded to, like, I was thinking Shingun was going to be on this team. And then Katie just kind of continued to separate himself in my mind. And some of it, as you said, Justin, is just the sheer work by the percentages, where he is like a percentage point on free throws away from a 50, 40, 90 season. Incredible shit from Kevin Durant, especially for a Rocket's offense that does not give him the most natural playmaking help

in terms of setting up his opportunity. nothing in their half-court offense is particularly easy. Kevin Durant more than anybody else on the floor is the one who is tasked with making shit happen out of those situations. And I want to be very clear about something. I think he kind of loves that. I think he lives for that shit basically more than anyone else on the planet. I'm sure it has its frustrations, but he's uniquely good at it.

And I think it really energizes him in terms of his play. But as far as like who is more central to the way that the rockets, who the rockets are and kind of their identity, I think we talk a lot about. their offensive rebounding and their bruising style as being a shangoon, Stephen Adams, Tari, Yason, Amen Thompson kind of thing. And not enough about maybe part of the reason why they are getting so many offensive rebounds and can afford to be so aggressive in that way is because Kevin Durand is drawing two to the ball basically all the time, if not more than that.

Like the gravity he creates is what allows you to play the numbers game on the glass. And so I think he is as critical to that formula as basically anyone else. and with all of the production and the percentages, I think he clearly has a better case than Shangoon as far as which rocket you would prefer. But I just don't see a world in which you could even really argue that Shangun is more central to the rocket's identity at this point. But you put Booker in.

I do think that that's kind of a big part of all of this. I will say as we're recording this, the records are pretty similar. And so at a time, the Rockets had that pretty big advantage. Unfortunately, the sons have only gone one-on-one since we last recorded while the Trailblazers went 2 and O'NL. Relax. That's a tough one. But do you think any part of this is your news station?

This guy. To be clear, Isaiah Blakely called Yerall's argument a mid-off. I thought that was pretty good. It's true. He's absolutely right. But one of those teams is more closely aligned to the mid than the other, and I'll leave you to decide which one is which. But good thing we bet on the future and not exactly where we were at that moment. But that's okay. Keep going.

I'm really not worried about it. I'm not either. I'm definitely not worried. Don't print that I was worried. It's like a married couple that makes up and then they're like, not sorry. I don't even know what's going on right now. It's a perpetual sorry, not sorry thing between me and Justin that's happening on this show. Actually, no movement.

To bring it back to David Booker. Yeah. I just am phenomenally impressed with what he's done this year. And the versatility he's played with, the actual leadership he's shown. He's really doing everything I ever wanted him to do. And that's important to me personally. That's not really why I would vote for him. For me, it's the way those things fit into the suns as an ecosystem

and how critical he is to any of this working. Like, it's really cool that you have all these hard playing role players. If you don't have Devin Bucker on your team, you're kind of cooked. like his ability to create advantages consistently to make the most out of those advantages even when they're challenging. It just doesn't really work without him. And so the combination of him bringing all this to the table

in terms of the momentum of the team and the way that they operate and the style and the system that they play with that has gotten them to this point, like I think he has to be on here. Like I understand that we're getting to like a real crunch here at the end where some very qualified players

are not going to be on the team. To me, Devin Booker and the balance he's playing with, Like, that cannot be the guy you cut. How do we factor in the fact that Dylan Brooks is really the emotional totem of that team? And it took someone like Brooks and some of these hard out grinders in order to allow Booker the spotlight in order to shine. Like, Booker is kind of the same guy he was before. The efficiency is actually worse than he was playing next to some of the stars he was in years past. Obviously, he's doing more and they rely on him a lot more.

And I get that case for it. But I have to be honest, I do ding him slightly for the fact that it took. like some of these floor raisers in order to get to this point. He also, I think, benefits a lot from the lack of competition, the same with that Shengoon and Durant are splitting a lot of, like, sentiments at this point. Well, a couple things. As far as, like, emotional totems go,

like, the argument you're making is basically saying that you should favor Draymond Green over Steph Curry because he's the emotional totem of the Warriors. Like, I mean, there are different levels to this, including, like, the fact that one team has been a dynasty and one just is barely scraped into 25 wins. but yeah, keep going. Well, I just mean, like, there are players who are kind of volatile, catalytic players, right?

They transform your team. They take their potential and kind of exploded. I think Dylan Brooks is one of those guys because of the attitude he plays with and the edge he plays with. Brooks also scoring 20 points a game. So it's not like he and Dremont are an exact cap there. Yeah, yeah. I don't mean to take anything away from Dylan Brooks,

other than by personality type and kind of the space he occupies within the Suns, he is the volatile piece. Devin Booker is sort of like the metronomic piece for them. Like who is the stabilizer of the Phoenix Suns? And it's Devin Booker. This is just the tricky space that we get into having a team that is rewarding individual performance. And we're weighing it. But then we're also trying to weigh like how, what impact.

They're like, well, we need to bump this guy up because of the team success. It's just a weird. It's a all-star game in general is just kind of odd. Isn't it? Like, I mean, because we're talking about a team sport, but we're trying to like reward individuals. it just creates so much, I don't know, because the instinct and the impulse is just to look at raw production and things like that. And it's like we see a Michael Porter Jr. It's like, was he actually an All-Star in his DNA when he was in Denver?

And he just now he suddenly is because he gets the opportunity. Chad Holmgren, we're bumping him up. Jalen Duren, same thing. With Chet Holmgren average 25 if you were playing for Charlotte, you know, it's just that we end up with a lot of these just odd conversations like you all were talking about. Like, I don't know. Of course, Dremont was an All-Star. It's true. Yeah.

And I want to be, as far as that stuff goes, like, I genuinely do think we are seeing something different from Michael Porter, Jr. In his, like, composition as a player. I don't think he was capable of some of this stuff without kind of like growing, not just getting the opportunity, but growing into this role in a really meaningful basketball way. And so, yeah, there are cases where it is just context that's bringing a guy down or lifting them up. I think part of what makes these conversations interesting is trying to suss out what is the real meaningful growth? What is the part that's changing here?

They would put this guy into a different class. They would make him not just productive but feel like a star. Like there is a sort of intangible thing to that that to me, Devin Booker hits. Like he qualifies as that kind of player, whether he makes the team or not. You don't think MPJ was capable of this before?

I think he was capable of scoring a lot. I think he's always been in a mess. immensely talented score. I mean, as we talked about, one of the best shooters, really in NBA history, to be honest with you, like as far as like for his size

and what he's able to deliver, unquestionable. Was he always ready to be this guy? I say this, like as somebody who is like, I've tried to follow his career very closely. He's like a personal passion project of mine in terms of who Michael Porter Jr. can be. I've written a feature about him previously.

I've talked to him about it. Like, I don't know that he was always ready for this, like ready to have this kind of role with this kind of maturity. And I think it is an incredible credit to him that he's taken this opportunity where he's been basically jettisoned

from one of the true contenders in the league and taken it in stride and taking it without ever feeling resentful about it, like embracing the opportunity in a way that is not like, I'm just going to get my shots up, but I'm going to play healthy basketball for a team that is not overall capable of healthy basketball. That's a really hard thing to do.

And I don't think that a lot of young players who are incredible scores are necessarily capable of it. I think what's funny is his like defining characteristic that bled into his playing style is that he's totally unfazed by anything. And that was often like showcased in a bad way in Denver where you almost wanted him to be a little bit more gritty, a little bit more demonstrative, especially when it came to doing the role playing stuff that he needed to for a while. It's what kept him off the court for a long time under Mike Malone. Although starting to reconsider that a little bit as some of these younger guys are playing with Malone no longer there. But it almost feels like that's carried over into Brooklyn.

and has now become like his main advantage, where he's in big stakes, and he really doesn't seem shaken by getting more the volume of shots he's taking or being in big moments. And so I don't know, on the one hand, I think you're right. Like he definitely, especially when he was younger, I don't think he could have handled this sort of spotlight.

On the other hand, I think it really speaks to like how we map on to certain players, like what they're capable and not capable of doing broadly because of like our perception of their personality or like a stumble that they had before. they really haven't been given a showcase in order to do it. And so I don't know, Porter's been one of the, like, the weirdest cases in history.

I think you're right. I think they did, to a certain extent, just cut bait on him, brought in a similar type of player. It did afford them opportunities to go, fell out their bench. That was obviously the biggest motivation there.

But like, he's looking pretty good there. I don't know. This is happening more too, Kyle, where it's like, not to bring, make it a Deni-Ovdi a conversation,

but like, the guys are going out of, swear jarred the shit out of that one. No more swear jar. This is relevant. But, like, guys are going elsewhere and finding all-star versions of them themselves. I think obviously is more of an extreme case because he's playing completely different. But it does feel like there's opportunity for guys to go elsewhere now and, like, kind of revitalize their careers or shape it in a different way than I can't remember before.

Is that feel off? Like, I mean, Joe Johnson was someone like that. Like, there are few cases, but not as many as we're seeing now, I would say. Are you saying in a roundabout way that this is just a lob for Jonathan Cominga to reach his destiny, Justin? Is that what you're getting at? Well, we are at the top of the hour, so we do have to check in on this again. Still not good, but maybe not Jonathan Camingo, but I think there was probably... I was half serious.

Yeah. No, I was going to say, I mean, MPJ is an interesting case just because he was projected. It's just, it was a unique case of a team ascending with. a generational talent that created infrastructure that gave him an implied limited role that I think served him. But he also was a guy who was at the top of his class. And I think if you went across sort of the classes and the in the range that he was in, like that 2018 or 17 high school class, I guess it was, that this was always sort of the, this was the projected arc for him. It's just, it was delayed. And so I think it's an interesting case of a team like the Nuggets picking him up

at incredible value, and then we're seeing this happen. I just don't know, Cumanga, I just don't know that Cuminga is going to have the same. It's interesting because the shooting is the thing that's at the center of what MPJ does. And I don't think CUMINGA has a skill like that that's at the center. If I ask you like, what is it? It's just like athlete, you know, I don't know. That's a key thing. And then Denny, Denny's basketball IQ was just sort of set up to, it doesn't feel the exact same, right?

I don't know. I'm trying to think of another example. across the league of a guy who's just kind of like waiting to have that same type of explosion, I think it bears sitting down and looking at. I think it's, to me, demonstrative of the skill boom in the league overall, where if you want to flash back, even 10 years ago, the guy who was sitting on the bench or who was playing like eighth or ninth man minutes, like they were there for a reason, right? They were there because they didn't have the capacity to carry much more offense than they

were doing or to take on a bigger role. Now basically every team has some guy on their bench who can pass dribble and shoot. who could conceivably run offense, like to varying degrees, and there are teams that have more like ball handling help than others, for example. But the league is so roundly skilled and talented right now, that it doesn't shock me that some guys are having success doing exactly this, that when given a Josh Giddy level of responsibility, that a playmaker like him could really sing,

could really find a role that works for him. Whether that can apply to Jonathan Combinger or not, like, to me, that is more of a basketball IQ question. That's more of like, does this guy understand, what he does well and doesn't do well. And that's really the defining attribute of these breakout candidates. It's like, do you really get what makes you special?

And does that cloud your judgment as far as accepting other roles? Does it make you less malleable as a result? Or are you willing to actually invest in the things that make you good on a basketball court? You're asking me about me? Yes. No.

No, I want to know. What makes you good on a basketball court, Justin? No, nothing, because I don't get on a basketball court anymore. Do you shoot a left-handed layoff? up, Justin? No. I can't even draw my left hand. Okay, cool. Lori Markinen, I think another prime example of this, who

we have on the shore list. Great shout. I also think this is a prime case for expansion. It doesn't seem like there's much momentum there. Everything is going abroad at the moment in the league office, but like, there are so few places for these guys to unearth this now. The fact that these

guys are doing it, it's also in the context of other things happening there. It's not like even Denny for instance, was given the keys as soon as he got to another team because they saw this in him. And then all of a sudden, like, he's had two to three different versions of himself, even on this team. MPJL is easier just because of the one-to-one comp of the skills. But there's just like, Shadden? Shading could.

Yes. He's got that I'm in my own world score type guy. You're like, if you give him open road. I think the maturity and stuff would have to kind of take a leap to in terms of awareness. not like, you know, as a basketball player. Do you know who the ultimate case for this is, is Shea Gilges Alexander? Like, that is a guy who was, sure,

in a lane to be an important contributor for teams for a long time. And then all of a sudden became one of the best scores in NBA history. Like, that is a level of, like, transformation that takes this idea and explodes with it. It's a shame his legacy is going to be so tainted because of the offensive fouls, though.

I mean, it's going to really bring him down. it's all in jeopardy right now. You will not drag us into this trench. You will not. I just, I want to litigate each one, clip by clip. We need to take one more break and we come back.

We left one guy off that we all agreed on that I want to talk about. All right. Last guy on the list, so we all agreed. We didn't mention him because I want to talk to about him and some of these other guys that we didn't end up making it. Kwai Leonard, interesting case where if you'd ask me like,

just throw away like games played or whatever, This is like the five guys who have been just absolutely bulletproof this season. He's on there. When he plays, the Clippers are a completely different team. He is on another fucking level, 50, 40, 94 at high volume. I was looking this up. So he's taking almost 20 shots a game, like 50, 40, 90. I remember it coming around when Nash started doing it as like something that everybody knew about.

That was the marker of a successful shooting season. Nash's most field goals in a single season was 14. It was actually 13.6. Quice doing that at 20. Now she didn't shoot enough. He admitted it. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. But Quice played 30 games. Okay. That's enough to where I felt comfortable putting him in. He's also out the next two games as we're recording this. He has knee irritation. We might not see him again. This is what happens with him.

And I have to say, I was given great pause. Just being in fear that he wouldn't be able to make it to All-Star practically. Just you didn't think he would make it. in one piece doing what he's been doing. Yeah. And if he's not playing that many games, if he's at 30 and all these other guys are at 40 at that point, that's going to look a little weird.

On top of the other weirdness where it's just like, would he prefer to not be at into it for a little thing? That's what I was thinking. That's what I was thinking. There's enough bathrooms into it for him to hide in. There you go. Sort of like slip between. Well, wouldn't the move for us as journalists

in holding power to account to force him to be it into it, to answer the tough questions, you know, to do all-star media availability, which is really, I mean, one of the few remaining justice systems we have in this country, maybe that's really the move for us. Maybe we have to force him to be there.

Yeah, there's a real slipping Jimmy kind of quality to Kauai's availability where it's like, you know, I'd seem everybody's seeing better golf, where it's just like, all right, here we go. We're finally, we're getting it together. And then you're like, you just can't, of course, that's not fair because you can't control his body.

It's just that constant like we're back. We're not actually back kind of thing. But he's just been so, he just looks like Kauai Leonard just absolutely out there moving at his pace. And you cannot speed him up. You can't do anything with him shooting the shit out of the ball. He looks defensively like a terror at times. We're not the same Kauai the past. But if he's going to continue to be this guy, yeah, I think he deserves to be there for sure.

And if we're doing 30, I mean, you were doing Fron's at 25. I mean, that's kind of by that logic. I think he's in. Yeah, I don't have a problem with it at all. I think he has to be on this team. I think his play is pretty much undeniable. Again, there's different rules for different guys, right? If you are playing at the level of Kauai Leonard,

it's Shaggild is Alexander. That's the truth. Offensive fouls. There's different rules for different guys. All right. Stop. Just stop. Point being, if you are playing to this standard, I'm going to kind of move heaven and earth

to make sure there's a place for you on the team. Despite whatever you may think about Kauai as a leader, the era of the clippers, everything that's going on with the, aspiration investigation, which I honestly kind of want to talk about, not in its merits, but like what you hold against a player for something like this for like an all-star selection or an all-NBA selection that's extracurricular, right? Like strictly off court what actually matters. And I think there are years where if a guy quits on his team, if a guy makes a trade demand

that like blows up all the momentum of where his organization is going, that feels like a basketball thing that I actually do kind of weigh a little bit. If you get a coach fired. Like, that's a basketball thing that actually kind of matters and factors into this. I just consider all this stuff, which I assume is true, maybe it won't be, to be more of like a clippers infraction than a Kauai infraction. Like, he took more money against the rules of the salary cap. Is that a, is that a Kauai problem or is that a Klipper's problem? I think if you ask his teammates, if they're mad about him getting more money, they're probably universally going to be like, I do the same thing. I don't think they give a shit. I don't think they give a shit. I'm directed at the

clippers for like why you did this for him, not me. But there's a lot of that that goes on with Kauai in the first place of like, you do this for Kauai. Do we need to split hairs? Like I guess I'm not really saying one is at fault more than the other. It was just like two parties that colluded allegedly in order to go make this happen. Like, there's blood on both sides. I think the only reason you would split hairs is if you are at all moved by the idea of Kauai

Leonard should not be an all-star because he is the subject of controversy, right? because he has, like, violated, not an unwritten rule, but an extremely written rule, that he shouldn't be an All-Star as a result of that. For one, I just think he's been good enough that I don't really care that much, given the particulars of this exact case. And even then, I'm not so concerned that, like, this is the type of thing that should disqualify someone from an individual award. Well, luckily, the investigation is taking seven months

and definitely isn't being slow-played for a specific result from the NBA side of things. I don't think this ascends. into the like ethical concern that that you know if if a player has like a legal concern where they've done something like like a domestic dispute or something that is really like that's like of course we don't need you know and and i also don't think that it really it's not really on the level of like a like a like even like a point shaving type thing i don't think it's like a game no it's not even close so i'm just like no i mean i'm stating i'm stating the obvious here but i just But then I also don't think just going through the criteria you're here where it might make an impact.

I don't think it's had an impact on them as a team, right? Because him behaving weirdly in a way that would affect the team, like what you were saying, I don't even think it's in that category. So to me, it's kind of a nothing burger. It's like he's playing basketball and that money is just sort of a separate thing that I don't think is having any impact on them as a team. Great. I can't say that for sure.

What do you all think about that? It's a basketball reward and honor. And this didn't really impact the basketball. you could make the argument like, oh, maybe they were able to afford this role player at this point as opposed to this one. But that wouldn't matter. He's played, as you just alluded to, he's playing at the peak of his powers right now. And so unless it bled into the actual team chemistry, as you alluded to, I don't think it matters. Yeah, I'm with it.

I mean, to me, that just makes this case that much more waterproof. Like, really the only thing holding Kawhi Leonard back was if you wanted to be a real hardliner about games played. And I don't even think there's really much reason for that. Yeah. Well, if we're talking about Olds in Los Angeles, I do think we have to talk about LeBron James just briefly here. If only because... I thought you were getting ready to talk about your Tinder app again.

I didn't know where you were going with that. I'm on hinge, Kyle. Thank you. Unhinged. Yeah. As some of these injury guys start to come off the board, maybe Yokish doesn't plays, maybe Kauai doesn't plays if he's nominated to the team. I do wonder if the impulse from Silver

will be to go and grab LeBron in no small part because I don't know if you guys caught wind of the patch. LeBron James is now wearing for every game honoring his 23 seasons. I will just say that was weird to begin with. I didn't even know you could do that. Just have a patch made for you because you're a cool guy. I'm considering it myself. Just show up every pod with a more like a commemorative patch about,

I don't know, some trivial part of my podcasting performance. I think that would be great. We need like Ohio State. I was going to say we need like Ohio State. helmet sticker kind of thing. Oh yeah. Bill to listen or someone, some higher governing body

at the ringer to be like, that was a good point or that was a good joke. Can we get stickers? I'd be for that or patches. Big hits. Yeah. The around the hornification

of this podcast begins in earnest. I'm actually into that. I always love the Buckeye sticker thing. It's a good bit. So that patch thing is very weird in ominous. And I also think just having been around the team, I think people are on

red alert that that might be a signal that this might be the end in a way that I took note of. I don't think anyone knows anything, but I think people are just have their ears perked up. And it's something to keep in mind, if he does get nominated to this team, I think it might be a pretty big tell that like perhaps he's just slow playing. I think we all assumed that maybe he would do the Kobe thing, do one farewell tour. It seemed like Chris Paul was kind of doing the same thing or wanted to do that before the clippers took it away from him. Maybe Lauren just does this differently. Maybe he just fades away, just decides whatever sciatica, injury stuff, his play isn't up to where he is. Maybe it just fades away. And that's how it sends.

I think it's possible. I still think he ends up coming back. And I think regardless, regardless of what the T leaves tell you about LeBron's eventual retirement, I think there's a decent chance he ends up making this team because of who he is, because of the shadow he casts over the entire sport, like an absolute giant in this space. And I think if anything, the voting, will shake out where a couple of American players because of the American international format, that will be the addition. There will need to be one to two American additions.

And if you're not picking LeBron, I think we're talking about Austin Reeves, Evan Mobley, Julius Randall, James Hardin, like good players having good seasons, but there's no one there who's like, oh my God, we can't not have James Hardin on this team. And so because of that, I wonder if there will be a deference paid

and LeBron could be the American edition substitute to make the teams work. Does that bother you, Kyle? Like if it's if it's LeBron? I mean, no. There's nobody in there that I would be angry about that they're getting, you know, slided really. Other than Keante George.

That's true. I'm very big on keynote George. And I, um, yeah, I don't, I don't, I think LeBron's back, man. I don't, I don't see. I'd be, I'm trying to think of guys like going out on their own, to own terms. It's really would only be like, like, MJ. but even MJ came back after he had kind of burned out a little bit. It's Kobe, the game told Kobe it was time, you know?

And most people, you know, it's the, we're all told we have to stop and thing. I don't feel like the game is totally told LeBron yet because he's still out there doing stuff. It's just he's on, when you're picking your spots on such a flawed team, you know, it'd be interesting to see what he would look like on a really competitive team, like a really good team that had a credible. But I don't know if he's ever going to be on one of the first. of those again because of his salary, because of whatever it is. But he's still so productive that I don't think he's going to hang it up yet. I also love the idea of not just like the farewell

tour, but the Kareem style farewell tour where every team offers him like some kind of gift as he makes his way around the league. I can't remember which some team gave Kareem like a really nice rocking chair. The rocking chair is the legendary one. I just want to know what the Detroit Pistons would give LeBron James. What do you get for the man who has everything? I would like to find out. What are you going to give him when he goes down to Dallas? Why do I have to give him something? Because you're his guy. I'm not the mayor.

I don't run the Dallas Mavericks. Hollywood Mahoney over here. You guys are just paling around at the clubs. Not quite happening that way. But, you know, the season is young yet. Maybe things could really transform for us. Luckily, that's not my job. But I would love to see what all these teams cook up as a way that like, like, again,

how do you honor a legacy like this? It's monumental. I'll say this. Like, if it isn't his last season, What's with the patch? It's just like, he wears 23 and this is his 23rd season. Could be that. Should we just start doing this for all players?

Is there going to be a 24 patch? We'll see. I hope so. Maybe, you know. Like, when Blake Griffin jumped over a Kia, do we give him just like a car patch? And just it's based off of whatever thing you did that was cool? I don't know. Why would we not honor the things that are cool?

There's a quote. That's a good one. I guess it's some words to live by. Ramahoni. Should we go out on just words of wisdom from you every time? Like a real Jack Candy style. I don't know if I had that in me, but I can try to summon it. Anything else on these All-Stars?

We just did an hour and 30, so it's been... I was good to say. We've been hammered it, yeah. Can we hit a couple quick honorable mentions on the West? Yes. We talked about Rudy Gobert having a potentially defensive player of the year-worthy season within that. You already listed a few.

when you were talking about LeBron, these are honorable mentions to the honorable mentions. Well, Rudy Goubert isn't an American. So he's not in the James Hardin, Julius Randall category of somebody who would be in competition with LeBron, but should be in competition for an All-Star spot. I see what you did there. Yeah.

Defense matters, damn it. It really does. Half the game. We touched on Lowry as well. Lowry Marketing is a wildly prolific score for somebody who is not going to make the All-Star team. So we at least need to say his name on this podcast. We said it earlier.

but in honorable mention capacity specifically. Jesus, Chris. Do we not check the boxes? I thought we checked it earlier, but if you would like to make sure it's specifically in this background, I would. He is an honorable mention.

I guess if someone jumping around in the pod, and they didn't hear us say it two minutes ago, I'm glad that you got it on the book. Justin, somebody was doing the dishes earlier when we, in passing, mentioned Larry Marketed. Like you got to really set a tone here at the end. This is Netflix, right? Didn't Matt Damon say you have to restate things every good people.

So we should start doing that. Every three to six minutes, Justin needs to reiterate the point of our podcast. I wish I could I could do that succinctly at this point. Kyle, you seem like you have something you want to say. Oh, no, it was just like going through the, it was like, we're just doing our due diligence. Who could we not make, you know, avoid making mad? I was like, you know, Zion's produced, but no. I'm trying to think of other people.

I think we've said all the names. So I feel good. Conscious is clear. Okay. Just glad I just want you guys to feel good about this. I always do. Okay. On that note, why don't we wrap it there?

Thank you to Devin Ronaldo for filling in on production. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We will be back on Wednesday, as per usual. Talk to you then.