The Ringer NBA Show - The Bizarre Deals of Draft Night, Atlanta’s Chances in the East, and Offseason Teams to Watch | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are here after night one of the draft to talk about some of the deals that happened. They start with the Blazers' surprising selection of Yang Hansen. Then, they discuss the Pelicans' trade to move up and draft Derik Queen, the Celtics' recent trades, the Hawks' moves and how good they can be now, and much more. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto and Jomi Adeniran This episode is presented by State Farm®️. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm®️ with the Assist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat and ni-how to my new Chinese fans. We are joined by Rob Mahoney as always, Big Was. Gentlemen, we are now China's number one podcast because China is now heavily invested in Portland. Are we heavily invested in Portland, U.S.ide? You're goddamn right, we are. By proxy, we are. I guess that's true. We're kicking off this podcast by talking about the hottest action to come out of the NBA draft last night.

And that is your Portland trip. Brazers drafting Yang Hanson, Hanson, yes, Yang Hanson. We'll get it right eventually. Which means, frankly, like, I can't wait for the ratings for our pod to just get jacking because China is very interested in the NBA and they are going to be very interested in the Portland Trail Blazers pretty soon here. So we are already thinking about implementing a Blazers swear jar of a sort. Anytime Justin mentions like Delano Banton on a pod, are we really going to have to ramp up

our efforts to curtail the Yang mentions just to get those numbers up, as you're saying. I mean, I think if you guys want to line your pockets a little bit, I don't know what the Chinese social media platform of uses. I think they have one of those ones where it's like one app in all, but I'm here for for advertisement deals on the side, whatever you want, but the Chinese people show up. Maybe they haven't lately because of some actions by Terl Morey. But I for one am welcoming them specifically to our podcast about the NBA. We're not going to wade into sore topics for the CCP like Taiwan, unlike our friend Darry, okay?

We're going to keep it straight, hoop, stick to basketball, and show love to our Chinese brethren and cistern, man. So you say that, but Justin's going to be wearing like a 10 cent advertising patch by like week two of the season. We're going off the rails real quick. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need,

you could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm, with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability and eligibility vary by state. I feel like if we're going to start any pod with, Hot Trailblazers action. I think it should be this one because not only did we get the Drew Holiday Trade,

we got this draft book, which might have been one of the most surprising. I think we've seen in recent history. Honestly, it reminded me of Janus from a while ago. But Janus was just kind of under the radar. The Bucks, nobody really paid mine to them. Portland signaled Rob with the Drew Holiday Trade. At the very least, they were going to be a bit more serious going into this season. Last season they finished strong.

And I think they were just preparing to go with what? ever worked. They were going to be better. They're going to sell the team. Yep. Great. I was down for that trajectory. But then they go the opposite way, did a Chinese project who was projected primarily to go into the second round, heard some rumblings that he might go late first. He goes 16th to a team that, I mean, needs him now and needs him in the future. So I don't really know what's going on here. Do they need him now? I mean, this team is already kind of flush with centers, more centers than they know what to do with. I'm all for getting a guy with like apparently a 14 foot standing reach.

Like I'm here for the length. I'm here for the presence. I'm here to see, you know, what Yang's game is all about. But like, I think what's- Do they have more centers than they know what to do with? I mean, at minimum they got clinging. Yeah. Okay, that's fair.

They got Rob Williams. Rob Williams. And Rob Williams. And dominating. Yeah. And in respect. Thank you, Justin, on Dwap Breit's name. Like you got to account for all the bigs around here.

I love all these bigs. Unfortunately, most of these bigs only play about a third of the season. And so they need all of these bigs in order to form one to two big. Hopefully, Yang is something unto himself because he seems like, I mean, they're calling him Chinese Yokic-wise. So I know that you're getting a little titillated. I mean, I'm interested to see what he does. Hopefully he actually participates in the NBA Summer League. And, you know, these kind of prospects are more exciting because when you're in, you know, in China or you're in in Janus's case, the, like, third best Greek league or whatever.

And the NBA kind of unearths you. You know, I was reading my guy, Jay Caspby and Kang, he did a piece for the New Yorker about just, like, grassroots hoops and, like, the kind of kids that make it to the NBA. Guess what? It's a country club sport now? like tennis or golf or something. But he was talking about basketball lore is filled with these stories of a scout seeing a grainy tape

or going to some far-off reaches of the earth to unearth this talent or whatever. And this has that feel that we don't really get anymore. Like the way the scouting community works, if you have even a scintilla of NBA talent, these people will find you. And so the fact that there's not a lot of tape

on this guy. He's playing out in China, which, you know, I guess we have difficult relationships with now, but he's coming over. Like, that's, that's exciting stuff to me. I hear what you're saying, but also these aren't the far reaches of the world. This is the second most populous country on the planet, you know? I mean, it said that, like, finding literal tape on this guy apparently proved difficult because of the Chinese firewalls in order to protect that sort of stuff. I think was is making the case for it there. Like, yes, they're just worn as many eyeballs on this. Portland is selling the idea that they identified him early as early as like these U-18 tournaments. Mike Schmitz, who does a lot of international travel, obviously worked for ESPN, went and saw

him along with their other assistant GM. They identified him early. He was their guy, and they actually moved back and maneuvered around the draft in order to get him specifically. And maybe they're right, but it really seems to be a make or break move because this is the type of thing that either mints you as one of the best GMs in the league or it will get you fired because it is such a splashy contrarian move and Portland has definitely done some things that go against the grain the dame trade first and foremost but by and large their previous picks were pretty conventional like scoot shadin clinging all guys high upside mocked in that general range um i also think part of this rob is just like the mock economy like kind of warps your mind to think like a certain guy

should go somewhere. And so like maybe they're geniuses. I honestly don't know. When I watch, he seems like he's pretty unathletic, despite all the touch and feel and everything good that he has. He is a huge old boy, 7-2 and he seems pretty chiseled for like a 19-go, I think 20. He's 20 today. But this is quite the swing. And I'm here for it, I guess is what I'm ultimately saying. I'm here for the curiosity, for the entertainment value, for the prospect hunting. All that stuff is super fun from just like a perspective of someone on the outside looking in. I just don't know if I was running a team. I think there's, look, I think there's plenty of arguments for taking similar type

players in consecutive drafts or drafts in a relatively short span for the sake of like, we're trying to get one of these guys to hit. We're trying to find one high level athletic wing. We're trying to find one really creative combo guard who can make sense for us. Taking multiple swings at big plotting centers is not, I don't think, like the best way to invest your draft capital. You know, like that that's an archetype that even when you hit it, is it really that valuable relative to what you might have been able to get elsewhere in the draft?

And that's to say nothing about him specifically or even relative to this draft class, like maybe they just made the judgment call that, you know, what, there aren't enough high upside picks here for us to take a swing on someone who would be duplicative with Shaden Sharp or duplicative with Scoot. I think that's a fair enough assessment, but I just don't know that even if Yang and Klingin both hit, for example, does that change where you are? as a franchise, does that change your fate? I'm eager to see kind of what they can do.

If he's the Chinese yoke, it should does. Well, there's hits, there's hits and there's hits. I think the truth is that Klingan, given some of his conditioning issue, some of his foul issues, despite the fact that he's so big, I almost wonder if his best case is actually to be a rotation big. Like, he should start play 20 to 25 minutes a game, but then like in the right matchup in the way that we saw with OKC, maybe he doesn't play as much. Trying to find time for both of them is going to be pretty stark.

So I almost wonder if Kling is best served doing that elsewhere. But, Waz, I think this kind of ropes in the Drew Holiday part of this because they got rid of in the trade with the Celtics, Anthony Simons, a guy who'd pretty much been their offense for about two years there. Part of me wonders, like, if this doesn't cut against what they did, which is getting a win now veteran in order to rear their existing team, be more defensive-oriented and get to impair him apparently with this big who one of his main flaws will probably be on the defensive end. On the other end, like if he is going to be the primary creator, which they seem

to be pretty excited about, maybe it actually makes sense for the rest of your team to be the defensive guys who need to be fed. And so I guess where do you fall on this? Do you see the logic here or does this seem like completely chaotic to you? I'm always going to see the logic in pairing your young, still developing guys with competence, right? Like, But, like, their young players playing with Drew Holiday can only be a positive thing. Drew Holiday isn't going to, you know, soak up a bunch of possessions on the ball. He's not, like, he's an additive player, just straight up, especially for developmental, sort of minded roster building.

So I'm always going to like the idea that you put serious people next to your young guys, and it's not just all a bunch of 19 and 20-year-old. who have no idea what the fuck they're doing out there as they try to develop a serious NBA player. So for that reason alone, I love the deal. And then, you know, on the draft pick front, like Portland's team is not formed. No.

They haven't figured out who they are. So if they fall in love with a guy in the draft, I have no issues, you know, going with that because you're still sort of in the exploratory phases of your team. if this was a team that we've already established a sort of hierarchy, who's our best player, who's going to be our future leader, who's X, Y, and Z. And we have an identifiable need to complement this identity that we've developed.

To pass over that for something that seems, you know, a little hairbrained, I think that's a mistake. But a team like this, like, what? Like, why not? I guess you could be more pragmatic, but I'm completely fine at this. stage of things. Like Portland down the stretch showed themselves to be like not some pushover, horrible team.

But at the same time, like, nobody thinks they're going to achieve anything next year. And so I'm cool with the pick. I think they've accomplished just enough, Waz, as you're alluding to, like down the stretch with their defense, to want to accelerate a little bit in a Drew Holiday type fashion, right? Like get some of those adults in the room, round out your roster a little bit. And, you know, we've been talking about the possibility of them trading Anthony Simons for years now.

now, it's a little surprising that it culminates in them trading for a guard, but at least Drew Holiday is a different kind of guard with a different kind of skill set that I think could suit Portland, provided that he wants to be there, provided that he wants to be involved. And Justin, this is when we need your official comment on the Steve Bullpit Report for Heavy.com that Drew is quote unquote pissed about being sent to Portland. How are you dealing with this news? It hurts. I got to say.

I know Drew dating back to the New Orleans days. I like Drew. I think he would thrive here, frankly, just tilling his garden and doing that in his offseason. So I hope he comes around. I'm happy to be part of the party that does that for them. But, you know, I think it probably signals more about where he is at the stage him in his career. This is a play for a winner. Sure.

Yeah. And honestly, I was probably a little higher on Portland next season than conventional wisdom. No way. It's shocking. I can't believe that. Well, here's the thing. I think I'm one of the few people who was actually watching all those games. That's true. And they did have that magical kind of turnaround at the second half of the season. I do think there's something rocketsy happening in this team where it's like there's a defense in depth identity.

Now, I also think we're at the part of the season where a lot of teams are looking at successful teams and convincing themselves that they can follow that track much in the same way that New Orleans did a couple years ago chasing Kyle Lowry to no effect after Chris Paul reared a young group with the sons. I think there's very much the idea that like, oh, we could be rocket specific northwest. And I almost wonder if like, Yang, if you're really selling the idea, maybe he's just Shengoon from a different side of the world, right? I think there's some logic to that. I think where it comes down to is really the trade math is where I saw a lot of the consternation, particularly from the nerds where it's like, why are you paying the Celtics to get off a contract that extends three years and could tie up the books? I'm less precious about that in part because, like, I still don't even know what the two seconds are. And so what are we doing? Well, here's the thing.

New Orleans has taken a tact where they're not playing the cast-based game in the same way that Brooklyn has. And you saw it paid dividends in the Christophe's Porzingis trade with Atlanta because they got a first-round pick for taking on a reasonable contract. Yeah. And Terrence Mann. And Portland could have set itself up to do that. They really haven't done that. And if anything, they've paid premium. So just get good players.

And Deni Obdia is the prime example of that. I think a lot of people hammered that trade. I thought that was an amazing trade in the long run. And so the hope is like you paid a little bit extra to get what you wanted. I think the question is how much left, Rob, is like, does Drew have? I think last year, there were signs of both. I think we're also in the part of the season where a lot of teams and people are being like a little too anchored in what just happened. I can't imagine Drew's going to shoot as poorly as he does.

I think there are going to be more people to feed him in a way and take things off of his plate in a way that highlights his good stuff. stuff. So ultimately, TLDR, I generally like where we are, but I'm also like strapping in for the ride because this could get pretty rollercoastery in the near future. I think as far as the Drew part of that, I agree with you that we shouldn't lean too hard on who he just was. There were some areas of concern there. And there have been, frankly, the contract. Well, the contract is what it is. But I'm talking about like, some of us on this podcast raised the eyebrow in real time when it happened. They certainly did.

known Drew Holiday skeptic, Wazni Lambray, has joined the chat. Here's where I come down on it. There are expectations when you are a core member of a Celtics team competing for a championship, like what you have to do well, where you can't afford to make mistakes. And one of those is like,

you have to hit your open shots, right? Like that becomes an really important threshold for what it means to play for a team like Boston with the stakes of their season. Stakes for Portland aren't quite that high. And I think this is where, if we're going to make the Rockets comparison, and we need to be clear about what that means.

I think that there is some Rocketsy DNA in terms of the defense and the culture and the identity you're talking about, Justin, but it's a Rocketsy model that leads you to competing for the ninth seat. Last year's Rockets. Yes. But that's a very different thing from like,

you know, vaulting your way up the Western Conference standings. And it's like if that's where you are, it's like fighting for a play in spot, and I think Portland has shown that they're feisty enough and competitive enough and have the defensive depth in particular to fight for something like that, then I have no problem with Drew's limitations.

I have no problem with the player he just turned out to be for the Celtics. Like that player is useful to a team like this. Like in the Rockets thing just to extend it, I don't see why he can't be the Fred Van Vleet of this team. You know, like he's not as good as Fred Van Fleet, I think is the answer to that. Offensively, but defensively? Yeah, defensively, he's better. It's just about orienting the team, right,

in a way that is towards a winning mentality. mentality and a mindset. And I'm completely fine with that, even if it is a bit of an overpay, which everybody would agree, Fred Van Vleaf got overpaid. Oh, sure. But he's doing a job.

He's performing a function. Even when it's not resulting in made shots, it's like there's an attitude, a comportment of the team that is changed by having grown-ups who have seen a lot, have won a lot, and can, you know, basically be leaders in the locker room, but more importantly, on the actual court.

There is a question here, like the Van Vleck comparison as far as how the Rockets spent their money. I think it's instructive here. You know, Justin, you mentioned, like this isn't a team that's been renting cap space. If anything, I would say Portland is almost going more of an Indiana-type model of trying to get good players, trying to develop from within, trying to cultivate that talent, and then you figure out what to do with it. You figure out who stays and who goes, who fits and who doesn't. All that stuff makes sense.

I think the Houston model is you get a player like Fred Van Fleet by overpaying them in the first place when you have the window to do it and then you end up getting the extension at a discount later. And maybe this is the kind of thing where Drew Holiday ends up being a very long-term member of the Portland Trailblazers. Maybe there's room for them to make plays for veterans who then end up getting extensions down the line to stick around in a way that makes sense. Like there's lots of ways to spend both the opportunity and the cap space and the, you know, the exceptions or whatever you have at your disposal. within this new cap environment. I think everyone's trying to figure it out. So Drew and I just get a house flipping show eventually when he's still here playing at 42.

I love how we stumbled upon the elixir for Drew Holiday's depression, him realizing that Varia had to move there too. And he's just going to be so excited and happy to be reunited with his boy. Well, we got to get our guy a seasonal effective clock. Like, we really need to protect him up there. But I would watch this home demo show you're talking about. Justin. I think Drew definitely gets the sledgehammer, no offense. But you can be the brains of the operation. You have the flannel, but look, he's got the brawn. Like our guy knows how to how to tear down a wall. Well, I just hope to catch some flights on his PJs down to L.A. whenever he's trying

to get out of town to get a little bit of sunshine. So that happens. I'm good. I just think I'm in the position where I'm going to be on the precipice of the next Denver Nuggets or this is just going to be some pretty above average basketball. So ultimately, I went in this, so I don't really give a shit what anyone else thinks. There you go. Well, speaking of trades that people think a lot of things about, let's talk about what the Pelicans did as well on draft night. Before we get that far, can we talk about the Boston side of this stuff?

Do you want to save that for later? Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Okay. All right. I rescind the comment. Yeah. So the Pelicans drafted Jeremiah Fears.

I believe at number seven in the draft. high upside dynamic guard has some defensive concerns but i think a lot of people liked them like that pick they then traded number 23 to go up 10 spaces and they dealt their 2026 first round pick in order to draft derrick queen uh the unprotected 2026 is most favorable of theirs and mollkeys uh and that is going to atlana who picked asa newel at 23 uh i have some questions sure rob Did you want to go first here to provide one part of it? I think our friend Waz says the other side of it. My part of it is what?

Why? Here's the thing. We have very few rules on this podcast. Anything goes on group chat. One of our rules, don't trust the Pelicans. That clearly has not changed with new management. And as far as like betting on them being a good and winning team, I think the idea of trading away,

control of a pick like that that is dual purpose, right? Like either the Pelicans could potentially be bad and it's valuable or the Milwaukee Bucks which who's to say how their season goes.

If any of those teams are bad, this pick is immensely valuable. And I think what I hate about this most is that's like a bad, that's bad asset management as far as like draft picks go. Derek Queen seems like a really cool player and we love a skilled big around here.

I don't like that this trade just like hangs around his neck. And now he has to validate the investment that the team has made in him in order to acquire this pick in the first place. See, like, this is my problem with the pick's obsession, just period.

Let's just say the Pelicans pick next year turns to the eighth pick. Sure. Ooh, they gave up the eighth pick. Well, they gave up the eighth pick and the 23rd pick. Okay, the eighth and the 23rd pick. Like, the kid has to be

good. If he's good, it doesn't matter. Right? Like, if they think he's good, and it turns out that this guy is a bona fide starting NBA power forward every single day, 30 minutes a night, then

like, it doesn't matter. Like, they just have to get this right. That's, like, that's all it is to me. It's like, oh, you, you missed out on your opportunity to fuck up another draft pick. It's like, I don't understand that. Like, I mean, We're having a process versus results conversation.

You're saying as long as the results are good, the process is irrelevant. And what I'm saying is like, this process is pretty fucked up. This is a bad decision. Well, I mean, to me, it's like, it's all guesswork. The draft is guesswork. It's not some gurus in there. Oh, they're just going to pick the best guy possible. Even with, bro, it's guesswork.

So they missed out on a chance to do another guesswork thing next year with whatever pick it ends up. being that's worse between them in Milwaukee. Who has a high likely of stinking up the joint next year, by the way? Very possible. It's like, Yannis has to play 70-something games for these guys to be what? 38 win team? But this is another reason to keep the pick.

Yeah. Then it just goes to Atlanta no matter what. I think you make reasonable arguments. If Queen is good, who cares? For sure. I think the problem is it's compounded by the fact that he does not fit with the current construction of the team. And so what do you do with Zion Williams?

At the very least, you've kind of undercut your leverage if you were intending to dump him anyway. Because you just signal to the entire NBA, we basically got a guy who's similar enough to him that we have to do something with him. I mean, are the Pelicans so talented that him and Zion can't play big minutes next year? No, and that's the problem with the first part of it is they're not talented and they're not going to play through rookies. And so I wouldn't be surprised if they end up as one of the five worst. teams in the NBA next year. I guess, man. I just don't, I just don't like all of the teams that got jumped over in the lottery this

year to be pretending like, yo, this like lottery pass is some golden ticket. When like, if right now you like this dude, just do it. Just like this idea that you live your life as a franchise is like, no, man, like, it's always the next draft pick, by the way. The next draft class. It's always the sexiest thing. Oh, next year. What we hear is going to be just the most talented draft next year every single year with this crap.

I don't think that's entire. I don't remember hearing that about the 2025 class. I don't remember hearing it being pumped up as like, oh, my God, this is incredible. It was, there's Cooper Flag. There's a couple other guys people like. And then there's a bit of a cliff. If anything, they're saying that about 2026 now, but to your point, like, there you go. The Rutgers kids were seen as all-stars, bro.

They might be. You know, a Cooper flag all-star. For sure. Edgecombe. Oh, my God. The athlete, bro, we can do this every single year. That's what I'm just like, I don't know, man. Like, if they really thought the world of this kid,

then that's what you got to do. You got to be in it to win it. And to me, you know, part of it, I think, is just like, it's Jody. Like, I think if a GM who people respect makes this exact same move, people are less skeptical. I really do believe that. If it was someone that had in particular an impeccable draft history,

which I actually agree with you, I think the draft is largely a crapshoot, and there are a couple exceptions of teams that draft consistently somewhat well. But by and large, it is like you're playing the odds with this stuff. You're playing the odds on incredibly young people who don't even fully know who they are yet,

whose habits are not established, whose games are not established. And so, yeah, you bet on talent, you bet on possibility, that's always going to have a huge amount of risk. I think the issue with this is the way that risk is compounding by making a move like this. I don't have anyone pushing in on a player that they believe in. But to your point, I was like, you really have to be right. Like, this is a franchise that just can't afford blatantly wrong moves at this point in the game.

Like, they need to pivot into something. I also don't know why New Orleans is doing a full scale rebuild. Like, I understand needing some pop and especially, considering they don't know what they're going to get from Zion every week, let alone every month, let alone every year. But, like,

there's still the core of a very promising young team that we were sold last season as being a major contender. And so are they going to just start selling off like Troy Murphy or Trey Murphy or definitely not Troy Murphy, shouts to a warrior's legend, like, or Herb Jones or, like,

they're signaling we're going to start from scratch again. And we should also mention that Jordan Poole is going to be a part of which I don't know what's going on there. And so I don't know. It just seems like they are starting a rebuild. And if they're going to do that, getting rid of a pick for next year, unprotected,

would be the worst possible scenario because they're saying we're going to be bad next year. But which one is it? Is the crew talented and not some putrid group of players, meaning they're not going to win 19 games next year? They're going to win more than 19 games. You know what I mean?

I don't know, man. That's what I'm asking. It's like, I completely understand this idea of just like, no, you own your pick next year. We all think you fucking suck. So you should just sit tight, suck and figure out what happens with your lottery luck. And they're just like, no, we think we're going to make our own luck right now by getting a kid that we think is incredible. But I'm not talking about what they think. I'm talking about what you think was.

Do you think they are going to make their own luck in a way that that will make sense? sense. Then what are we talking about? No, of course not. But I think the move is justified. I don't think stinking next year and praying on a, praying on my next basketball Jesus is amazing like G. Emery either. Like I don't like it's it's not praying for the next basketball Jesus. It's giving yourself an escape hatch and like a bit of a fail safe for when, not if when Zion Williamson gets injured. We have no idea when Dejante Murray is coming back.

Like he got injured later in the season than people. remember. He may not be ready for him. He might not even play. I have no idea what his status is going to be. January or whatever it is. Yeah. Could be out for a long time. Jordan Poole, while improved last season, is still Jordan Poole. Like this is a franchise

that does not have a lot of stuff nailed down in a way that you can actually believe in. Yeah, like, we really like Trey Murphy. We really like the development that he's shown. We really like the possibility of Herb Jones coming back and like the wing rotation making some sense in that way. But this is just not a team that has proven enough to be trading away. It's

draft picks in the immediate future. They're just not reliable enough for that. Do you guys want to talk about the pool trade? Just quickly? I would love to. So it was Pool and Sadiq Bay, essentially, I believe in the number 40 second round pick, for C.J. McCollum, Kelly O'Linnick, I think a future second, both of whom are expiring contracts, was, who's better, Jordan Poole or C.J. McCollum?

blink test. I think there are a lot closer than people realize. Both dudes who don't pass the rock, that's it. Undersized two guards, chuckers. C.J. McConnell has a great media reputation, so nobody kills him for it. But the guy does not pass, okay? He's a shoot first, shoot second, point guard size player. Jordan Poole with a better PR guy?

Yes. That's a me. Yes, he's just as horrible on defense. Like, what am I missing here? Like, this is just lateral movements to me. And Jordan Poole is more interesting, or as my man, Shams would say, potentially more dynamic. Potentially.

Potentially more dynamic is very exciting stuff. I mean, I think it's telling ultimately that Poole had a pretty solid season last year. He flirted with our top 100 list toward the, And I think he actually snuck him and cut it. He started playing good. Yeah. That the wizards were like, got to go. And then poised him off.

I was in Denver when he made that buzzer beater against the nuggets. That's right. Whereas just having the expiring contract of CJ was seems more advantage. Excuse me, Rob is more advantageous than just like playing through the next two years of pool. Oh, there's no question. I think like, look, to zoom out, I think the wizards have done a lot wrong in their like medium history. in terms of like when they put Bradley Beale on the market to trade him for example. But since

they traded him, the second they got rid of that. The last two years, Bradley Beal into Chris Paul, into Jordan Pool, into C.J. McCollum, along the way, this is what they have netted out so far. They've got three future pick swaps with the sons, which who the fuck knows what's going to be going on in Phoenix in 26 and 28 and 30. Their first swap did not

swap, did not turn it to matter. They moved up a couple spots in various drafts to get Bilalculibali, to get Kishon George. They have a future protected first from the Golden State that's probably not going to mean much. They have four future second round picks that are coming in. And they still have CGM column, who I'm sure they're going to try to flip at the deadline. He's on that expiring contract. They now have Kelly Olinick, who I think is a pretty useful player still. And somebody who's going to be fighting for something in the playoff race might be interested in at the deadline. In addition to Chris Middleton, in addition to Marcus Smart, like, they got stuff to move around. And they have some young

guys who are actually worth like giving a look and giving some opportunities to. And so for the of, you know, putting some more oxygen in the room by taking Jordan Pool out of it. I think it helps a lot of these players developmentally. And they just have a lot of stuff to play with and to entice teams with. And I don't know if Chris Middleton's going to be a viable guy at the deadline or not, if he's going to be healthy enough to be of interest to a team that's competing or contending. But we're going to find out. And those guys are going to be dangled on the market in a way that could add to these

potential returns over time. I think New Orleans is a mess. Somehow they got messier. And I can't wait to see what happens. happens. But let's talk about the Hawks because they're kind of looped into this whole thing because they ultimately traded down with the Pelicans. They also made a deal with the Celtics because the Celtics were just ditching out former champions left and right here. They picked up Christop Porzingis in a future second in a three-team deal, man. And the number 22 pick went to Brooklyn, which took

five players in last night's first round. It's a lot of rookies, not a young guys. The Celtics get Nying, George Nying, and a future second. A lot of future seconds. I have no idea where these future seconds will land. Who's the same? What's going on? But there are so many seconds that are out there in the ether. Good luck tracking all those down to the people who do.

But can I throw something out about this deal? Is this the maybe not rare, but somewhat uncommon, win, win, win, three team deal? Like, I actually think all three teams kind of got what they wanted out of this sort of transaction without having to give away too much. I think it depends on how much you want to dig into the Celtic. right now because I think they did a good job here because they needed to get out of the second apron considering next year is probably a Mulligan. But I'm just struck by seeing so many fans of

that team just cheer on the fact that they're just jettison former champions. Like I haven't seen anything like that. You could even say like in years past like maybe a team was forward thinking, Dallas with Tyson Chandler or their attempts to get ahead of that and maybe be playing three-dimensional chest and hope that like, oh, he's actually going to deteriorate. This is going to be fine. That's like a certain logic that I'm used to. Here, it was teams outright rooting for the fact that they were out of the second apron. And I think it's ultimately like an NBA problem because all of the cap constraints in addition to like the actual mechanisms for acquiring players now when you're in the second apron, all those restrictions, the frozen picks,

etc have forced NBA fans to cheer when we lose good players I mean the the cheering of fiscal responsibility or austerity or whatever the fuck we're calling what teams have to do in the modern NBA I think is a function of how it's covered too but like it kind of has to be covered this way totally I don't blame and we're just covering the league and this is how the league like straight up Like when your team has all of these constraints on roster flexibility,

and as a fan, you're like, wait, why can't we bring in new better players? Why can't we retain excellent players that are already on the team? Like, the actual answers are these freaking accountant answers. You know what I mean? Like, if you don't work at Deloitte, it's going to be tough for you to understand. what the hell the Celtics are doing. And I understand why, like, frankly, I do understand, like, when it gets drilled in the fans' heads that the Celtics have a $500 million payroll.

And their new ownership just paid $6 billion for the team. Like, whoa, do you know what I mean? Like, it's not hard to understand why fans are, like, we're doing the right things. And then, you know, you consider the fact that poor Zingas and Drew Holiday injured as hell, poor Zingis has a disease that nobody even knows what it is. Still? Like, still. Yeah.

We don't, how does he pass a physical, by the way? Supposedly he expressed some optimism about playing internationally this summer. He's fit and ready for competition. He's feeling better. So we're going to find out. How do you test for a thing that nobody knows what it is? Great question. He's just going to wear a mask like Bain.

People, you know, I remember the early years of the poor Zingis in New York. People were speculating. that he had mononucleosis, but I was like, guys, they would have found that by now. And he's older and wise. He's probably more chill now than he was back in the New York days, man. Let me tell you, him and Dirk Novitsky had a lot in common. Tell you that much. I don't even know what that means.

Look it up. Okay. Press me to the ball. You were just trying to set up your vein impression. I know this game. It definitely was. But no, the Boston, I mean, the Celtics are doing the right thing. The Hawks, taking a fly around Paul Zingis makes all the sense.

And, you know, to get a second round pick, whatever that even means nowadays. Especially when they put all these protections, whatever. Yeah, I think it was a win-win for everybody involved, for sure. There is something sort of nasty, Justin, about that idea of like, these guys are part of a championship team and you're just kind of discarding them with cheers. I don't love it. I just think that would not be the case necessarily if Jason Tatum were healthy. and everything about the tenor of this conversation would be different.

And now, as you're talking about Waz, it's not just, and the numbers are significant to someone. It's just not like to us in terms of like the Celtic saving $180 million as a result of these two deals. Two deals is insane. Absolutely insane. They've ducked under the second apron successfully. Like that's a big deal financially. It doesn't put any money in my pocket. But it does change their ability to make other transactions.

It does change their ability. And they're one deal away from the. getting under the repeater tax. Can you imagine? he'll get the duck boats out for that one. Oh, yeah. That is parade material. Listen, I don't fault Boston

or the fans or anyone because this was a necessity in order to set up the next phase of this franchise. Also, just, sorry to interrupt one part about that too. And as a fans in NBA coverage, not only do these deals like, oh, it's so smart, it's so fiscally

responsible. It's setting up next summer's bonanza. There you go. Right? So you get to sell it as next summer. We're going to do the crazy things where we actually acquire people. So it's like we're doing the smart thing and now we have this thing to look forward to next year. That's going to be the opposite.

We're going to have transactions coming in this time. Like it's all part of the NBA, you know, consumption freaking mouse wheel. Austerity now. Abundance later. Yes, sir. Serenity now. I'm glad that Wads brought up that point, though, because my question is, like, what are these savings going to ultimately sew? We reap and then we sew, right?

Yeah. Wait, you know, you sew and then you reap. Okay, let's do both. You got to know this with the garden. You reap what you sow. Oh, that's right. Let's reap. Let's fucking reap this.

I do wonder, like, where is the payoff here? Because, yes, they'll get under the second apron. Maybe Simon's turns into. to something either as a player who just fits because he shoots a lot of threes. Definitely doesn't defend anybody. But maybe they just trade him on. Maybe they get a first out of it just by being the way station for him. We'll see.

I ultimately just don't know like where is the big old piece that is going to help them foster this next era with Tatum and presumably Brown. Maybe it's a lottery pick next year, but just stacking them up with the rest of the east, it just seems like they're going to be pretty good. Yeah, very worst. I think they're going to be pretty decent. And Simon's, you mentioned, you know, he's not going to be playing much defense, but he makes sense for a team that just lost a lot of shot creation and is going to

need someone to force the issue a little bit. The Celtics are going to need Simons. They're going to need Derek White to be pressing more than he's usually comfortable doing, and they might still need Jalen Brown to shoot 28 times a game. And yeah, and Simons in Missoula ball system is something that I'm very interested in watching next year. Do you think he's enough to make Joe Maz reconsider his own religion? Like maybe there are limits on how many threes I want a guy to take.

I'll say this about Simons. I obviously got a front row seat to him last season. He's a flawed player, but he heats up and shoots the lights out out of nowhere. Like no one I've ever seen before. I never really got to see Dame up close very often. I saw only a couple of games. I've heard it's very Dame like. But I've just never seen someone NBA jam style heat up the way that he does.

Maybe Steph would be that. But we're talking about some of the best players of their era. Like he has that in him, unfortunately, just pretty inconsistent on top of the defensive stuff. Yeah. You mentioned one of the worst defensive players in NBA. But like, it's a totally fine expiring contract player if you just need to get by. Completely. Also more juice off the dribble than he gets credit for.

Like he's not just a pull-up guy. Like he's a good pick and roll player. He's going to be able to create for them, especially in the movement that Boston naturally kind of generates. Like, I think he's going to be good. Yeah. And to one more thing on the Boston stuff, you know, Justin's like, I don't really see the payoff. That's the thing, though. Like, Brad Stevens, I think, has earned our respect. Sure. And he could do, like, I believe that this guy has a vision for what it's going, what they can do, what they can be by the time Tatum comes back from his injury and having a conference like, Tatum's going to be a great player again.

We're going to have a great team waiting for him when he comes back. I believe in the Brad Stevens vision, whereas, like, you know, obviously collectively the Joe D. Vision is. I was going to say, like, have you turned a page? Are you just like a staunch believer in management now? No, Brad Stevens is a manager with some balls. That's the difference. This dude always manages with balls first. Like, this guy's not afraid to tell Marcus Smart to kick rocks. Like, he's not afraid to engineer the Drew Holiday deal.

Bring back Al Horford. Like, bro, this dude, Brad Stevens is killed. since he got to the team. And it's always in the direction of get better, take risks, believe in my guys. I love that kind of GM. The GMing of, oh, yeah, I was in on all seven of the best trades of the last 10 years, but never did shit. Yeah, I'm not in that.

I'm not into that. No, thank you. What I'm coming to understand, Justin, is that this is really an extension of Waz's doing the regular season, doing the playoffs, doing the finals, do it again. And, like, Brad Stevens has done it again, and so he has earned the respect. Joe D. is still trying to do it today. He's trying to do it in the regular season, although, I mean, credit words. Joe D.

was the architect of a championship team, if we're being totally fair about it. He's just never going to live down this picture right here. He's just. What is that second thing? Is that a charger or? It's the camera. I appreciate the effort there. So how do we feel about the Hawks then?

like they have done it in the past in the playoffs and they've reconstruct their team kind of on the fly here to where I wonder Rob if they might be able to do it again because on paper assuming Christop's health which is a big if always kind of like what they have I don't mind it you know and he's an expensive

player for a team like the Celtics with their apron and tax considerations it's not really that expensive a player for the Hawks like he's on basically a one year contract for them what else are you investing in if not someone like Chris Saps, Sparzingas, who is talented, we'll see how much he can play. We'll see how effective he can be.

But they need shooters like him. They need a little bit of that stretch and versatility. I think he can play with a congou. I don't know if Clint Capella is going to be a hawk or not. We're going to have to wait and see on that. But the opportunity for that kind of four or five combo, along with overall the creation and the dynamism and the passing that they get out of the rest of their lineup,

I think he makes some sense for them. Yeah, I mean, I love the idea of Jalen playing. the four next to him. It just gives them front court flexibility in ways that you basically need of the modern NBA. You got to be able to have some level of rim protection, some level of stretch,

some level of playmaking and all of that stuff. And with that rotation, they actually have all of that stuff, which is really cool. Some level of switchability on the perimeter. Like, that's a cool front court rotation that I think they should be pretty excited about, but again, all the people we just mentioned, their injury history is so freaking checkered.

You know, that's my only downside. Like, I actually love the roster as I'm looking at it, you know, on ESPN.com. But like, do I think these guys are going to actually play? I'd like to see it. I would like to see it happen. But I do think the give that you're talking about was positionally, like, Trey, yeah, is Trey. He plays more or less his style, although I thought he was more accommodating last season, better defensively last season than he's been.

But like Jalen Johnson is a 3-4 who gives you that flexibility. Dyson Daniels is a 1-2 who gives you that flexibility. Like, you know, Reza-Shea hopefully can get up to the point where he's kind of a combo two-three and not a purely perimeter player. And Akangu has some of that too. Like, fuck, even like V. Krati, if you want to go down the roster a little bit. Like there are a lot of guys who, if someone is out, you shifted around and now it still kind of makes sense.

You shifted around and there's still enough skill and talent on the floor. Elasticity for sure. That's the word. The nerds love that word now. Yeah. We can't just say flexibility anymore. Elas. Just like optionality.

I'm just thinking about fantastic four. Oh, yeah, you're hyped. I saw. Yeah. Okay, we got the branding there. We got to tell the ad people that we've got to clear in there. This strikes me as a real Quinn Steiner team now, where it's just, as Rob mentioned, the optionality across the roster and things just flow from Trey Young.

I do wonder if they're in the same sort of hallucination, like part of the season where it's like they see indie making sense of just having wings surrounding one primary creator. On the one hand, I think Try Young has probably missed as many threes as Tyrese Halliburton has made over the past year. But we saw what he could do activating a bunch of just big old wings who could do stuff. And they have a lot of those. I do wonder ultimately if this does pigeonhole, Ocongu in the second unit. I think they're best off playing Jaylon Johnson at the four and Prozengis at the five.

Obviously, they'll mix and match. Yeah. But it's just like, are we going to put, are we going to throw out? about Jalen Johnson, Okangu, Christop's lineup as our primary set. This seems very big. And you're kind of counting on Jalen Johnson to track the primary wings because of assumingly, Dyson Daniels on your front of ball. He can, but he's just like a little bit more of the bulky side.

I prefer him playing for where I have the advantage as a whole, as opposed to putting me on three. But I like what they have. And I think the fact that we're just like combing through the roster being like, I like this. I like that. I like this. I think it speaks to the fact that like Hawks have a real window here.

which I think we were hoping for considering the depleted nature of virtually everybody else ahead of them in the standings in the east. But they kind of really taken the advantage here. I think they do need some depth. Like Carus Laver, I believe is a free agent. It almost seems essential that he comes back. Hopefully he gets the early season Cavs version of Carus than some of the previous iterations. But like they get one or two more players around this.

Like, I don't know, man. We could be talking like a two or three seed next year, which is fucking wild. Okay. Let's pump the brakes a little bit on that. Two or three seed is... To who finishes above them? So that's what I'm going to say. Caves and Nix.

Yeah. Magic? Yes. Yes. The magic pistons. Yep. I think they're actually in a coin flip there because it also seems like the pistons are signaling we're going to take this slap.

Which might just be like, we can't get Miles Turner, so we're just going to roll over some cab space. I guess there's in a... Well, they did finish with a better record than the heat. Yeah. The heat are a mess. The heat I cannot figure out. And the teams that are sort of nipping their heels, the bulls, the raptors, the nets. I mean, do y'all think the Sixers are going to be a great team next year?

I'm refusing to make any predictions about the Sixers for the first year and the future. They're really the Young Hanson of the East where it's like they're either going to be really great or they're going to be all. Yeah. I'm going to enjoy it either way. Hanson? I think it's Hanson. Yeah. I think it is Young Hanson.

Okay, well, we did that. Great. Also on draft night, last big old confusing trade, Mark Williams once again on the move, but he sees some familiar faces because he's teaming up, at least for now, with Nick Richards in Phoenix. Phoenix also almost simultaneously, at least the news came out simultaneously that they drafted Common Moloch at number 10, which was like a whole boon, didn't think that he would be there at 10. Great pick for them. They need young bouncy guys after cycling through. Who knows. how many centers last year? Bowl Bowl got a shot.

Osweigadarro, Yusip Nurkich, all those guys in there. Finally, we have a guy. But now we got another guy. It seems like a real redundancy going on there. And probably another instance,

Rob, of, like, bad asset management where it's like, I can think of 50 other things right now, including the fact that you only have shooting guards on the roster beyond these two bigs. What are we doing here?

Well, at least it's not a shooting guard to your boy. Like, it could be worse. That's true. you know at least with the center rotation you're taking cracks at things that they have not been able to solve like even nick richards who i think has his virtues as a player came in and didn't really change a lot materially about what was going on in phoenix maybe the athleticism of mark williams his his ability to finish lobs maybe that will help them a little bit i don't know

why you do both these moves at once i don't know why you're taking both those cracks at once for guys you cannot play together who have no business playing together no maybe it is just a straight-up timeline consideration that they, you know, they really like Malawatch long term, but ultimately they need someone to play with Devin Booker today to avoid him from getting like too upset about the fact that he can't throw a lob to his center successfully. I think that's it. I think that might be it. Yeah. And if you're played devil's advocate wise, I think they look at Dallas at at least a year ago or two years ago Dallas now and the finals be like 48 minutes of center play. We have creators. We'll see if they keep Jalen Green, but like Devin Booker plus lob threat, something good will have.

happen. Yeah. Look, Jailing Brad Bill, Jailene, Devin Booker. Dylan Brooks. Grayson Allen. Is Grayson Allen still yoked?

Is he going to play the four this year? They need somebody. I guess Dylan Brooks could technically play the four, right? Like, it's not it's not impossible to see

the talent of this roster actually working. Let me stop you. It is. No, no, no, no. What I'm just saying is we've never seen the people on this team use their talent to the ends that they would have to. Okay. In order for this to work.

Gotcha. Right. It's not like Bradley Bill is incapable of like, all right, like make your job to like stay in front of people in a respectable manner. Make open shots. Secondary ball handling duties. Like, you can pay $50 million to get. Like, that seems like that should be within your power to do. It does.

But he's not. He's not going to do that. So as long as the players on the Phoenix Suns were willing and able to do things they have not done successfully before, they're going to be fine. But what? But what is within their power to do? Sure. You know what I mean? I like the optimism.

Yeah. Like, it's the thing. It's just not going to happen. No. Here's the question. The Sun's finished with 36 wins last year. Could they do that again? I can see it.

Yes. But that is the ceiling of this team, whereas last year, this was the absolute basement that we all said that this is a catastrophe. Yeah, I think I would take the under. I would probably as well, but like if it happened, if they were just competitive enough because Booker has an MVP caliber of season lifting all boats around him, maybe. But again, I don't see them getting beyond around 500. Or Jalen Green is mastered shot selection. Yeah. Or they trade him for something that makes their team make more sense.

which I will believe that when I see it. Houston has been trying to do that for quite some time. I think the question with the West is, if Oklahoma City down shifts a little bit in the regular season, how many wins does that kind of put back on the table, so to speak? If Memphis takes a meaningful step back in terms of their win total next season, you have to kind of find the win somewhere. And ultimately, the West is still super deep with teams that are trying to be competitive.

Portland is going to be better. San Antonio is going to be better. Dallas is going to be better. Sacramento is not. Maybe that's another option in terms of a team that could end up. of giving up some wins a longer term. But like you have to find like the the zero sum game here in terms of where those extra wins or even the like sustaining wins are going to come from from Phoenix.

Yeah, even Memphis, who I think we all assume would take a step back. And they might made a pretty intriguing pick on draft night, trading up and getting Cedric Coward, a guy who while going into the draft, I read David Thorpe said was his second best player. And now our friend David, who was my former colleague, like his. prone to throw in some stuff out there. He's a hyperbolic guy when it comes to that. His very strong opinions. Sure. And so perhaps this ends up being in the Gelmeckle zone of one of those. But ultimately, I think it suggests something about the upside of coward, a guy

who came from nothing, honestly played a D3 Lamett in my neck of the woods a couple years ago and all of a sudden was prepared to play at Duke next year and just seems like he has it. I do wonder, you know, Memphis has been amoured with this type before. Zaire. Williams was a very long athlete who ultimately couldn't shoot. Coward can shoot, but the volume isn't really there. But that's a long-witted way of saying, like, Memphis could be intriguing as well. And if we're talking about other things that happen on draft night that I found pretty intriguing, I think that would be at the top of my list.

I just want to salute you, Justin, for the first, I believe, ever, Cedric Howard Gao muckle anti-comp. I don't even know exactly what happened there, but those are two human beings who have never been mentioned in a sentence together except by you just now. So we're making history here on group chat. I think I think our guy David has probably done it a few times because those are his guys. He has his guys. You got your guys.

We all have our guys ultimately. Did you guys have any other guys on draft night that you found interesting? Can I talk about another trade around the draft or I guess a move around the draft, not even a trade? Dallas's whole deal. Obviously they get Cooper flag. Wonderful news. for the Dallas Mavericks in the future of that franchise.

They badly needed that. We've been talking about it for months. Genius GMing. Genius GMing. They take their guy. Also did a bit of business in extending or setting up a new contract for Kyrie Irving, who's going to decline his player option and extending Daniel Gafford for a couple of seasons. On the one hand, Gafford's deal, I believe still technically allows him to be traded this summer,

has not taken him off the table. The commentary around the deal and the report. around the deal makes it sound like that's probably not going to happen. I have the same question I've had with the Mavericks for quite some time, which is who is going to be playing guard for this team in any capacity because Daniel Gafford is like one of their best trade pieces. And if you're not going to trade Daniel Gafford and you're not going to trade PJ Washington and Kyrie Irving is still out for the foreseeable future with an ACL injury, who is handling the ball? Who is dribbling for the Dallas Mavericks?

Noggi Marshall. And maybe Cooper Flag, you know? Yeah, maybe Cooper Flag. I don't have any better options at this point. I think you hit it, though. Did they do the deal to make him more attractive in a trade? Or did they do the deal to keep him? Because you're right.

The biggest issue with some of the things that they did beyond the top line of trading Luca Dongeus was like they are shoving guys into positions that they shouldn't be playing primarily to give AD his showcase at the four. In fact, Cooper, everyone suggests that he might be better off as a four. And so Cooper flag AD front court for the future seems pretty tantalized. considering the circumstances. Gafford, AD, Cooper,

flag, and then we'll figure it out. That's just like bigs on top of bigs. It's too big. It's quite big. It was telling that when push came to shove after acquiring Anthony Davis last season, Dallas had to try to go small at some points because there was just like no space on the floor

trying to play as big as they wanted to play and as they are now designed to play. It just there's so many. indicators saying this is a team that needs to play a little bit smaller than this. I'm not even saying you can't start AD at the four, but you need to start someone who can actually handle the ball. The D-Lo free agent rumors have already started. That's how you know you're in a bad place as a franchise when like D-Lo is the shining

solution on the board. I just have so many questions about how they're trying to navigate this season. Like there are a team that is by their own announcement, a win now team, a contend now team. they don't really have the personnel to do that right now. This is still a guard-driven league in so many ways, or at least a creator-driven league, and I don't know where their creation is coming from. Yeah, I don't see it either.

Can I zag on Delo? If anything, because... He's a major improvement, though. Yeah, there's that. And also, if you don't have creation throughout the rest of the roster, you actually want him to do too much at the start and then turn the keys over to Kyrie.

So basically have a Kyrie. proxy do the work for however long he needs to and then almost pass the baton. I just think a Kyrie proxy is bad. Like a version of Kyrie, Kyrie who is worse at all the Kyrie things is not that valuable a player. Like Kyrie is good because he's uniquely talented. I think the truth is like this is going to be a bridge to next season overall, no matter what they might be saying.

I think the problem was is like a lot of the times what they're saying often tends to be true. Yeah. And I'm, and I wonder like if it is. is like, all right, let's get off of Gafford or lively, who I think they like more than Gafford and is still cost-controlled on his rookie deal and stuff like that.

Like, who are you getting in there? You know what I mean? Like, who's the guard that's on the market that isn't a Jaling Green type, Jonathan Caminga type? Like, who are these players that are, guard like ball handling like like commit like come on like that's nobody's idea of a lead guard but who are these people there's not a lot of and the league doesn't produce these sort of point

guard you know capital p capital g kind of players anymore where it's like no he's just going to come in and be your offensive organizer and orchestrator and you know keep you guys in your sets and constantly be running plays. Like, that's not how the league operates anymore. So I don't even know what kind of player they get in there if we're being real. It's a fair point. Drew would have made sense. That's what I'm saying.

It's like Drew Holiday as your lead guard. Like, you're hyped about that. I mean, I'm more hyped than Dilo. Yeah, then you just swing him off ball because he could play with Kyrie eventually. That's the thing. He's like, you just want guards who can fill minutes in a way that will make sense within this rotation. And right now they don't really have anybody who can do that. Yeah, they have nobody. And look, they're kind of stuck on the Kyrie situation. Like,

they really needed him. They were really banking on him being a part of this team before he got hurt. And now they're in a position where they have to pay him around $40 million to rehab and kind of get back next season. We'll see to what extent he's able to do that by the end of the year. Then they have one full season after that where he's going to be under contract and Kyrie Irving, presumably. And then he has a player option. And so if that season goes well, I assume he's going to turn down that option and hit the open market again and they're going to have to pay even more to potentially if they are so lucky keep Kyrie Irving so it's like they're kind of stuck behind the eight ball in the Kyrie situation in a way that doesn't allow for easy options yeah uh other draft

night stuff that I thought was interesting uh Carter Bryant following to San Antonio at number 14 it's just like let's just get Bruce Bowen like 2025 in here to just to make sense of a roster that has too many guards who can't shoot the way things have lined up for San Antonio is unbelievable falling into Castle last year, getting the number two pick and getting a potential lead creator next to Webbenyama after trading for Deer and Fox. It's just like unbelievable luck. Have you given any thought, Justin, to where you want to lay down the line on the Spurs this year? Last year we talked about, you know, are the Spurs going to make the play in?

Or they are the Rockets going to end up with the better regular season record? Like, how optimistic are we talking in terms of your general San Antonio vibe? I would say low set playoff spot. So in the top six at best next year, that'd be thrilled. Most likely probably in the play in. I mean, Fox plus Wemby plus other stuff is already a winning combination.

I think it's complicated a bit as you're working more rookies in. They've definitely suggested that we're going to have a longer view on this sorts of things. I do wonder how much Fox ultimately steps on Harper and where Harper ends up in the pecking order. That's the key. You're going to run the second units. And Castle, too.

Yeah. The three of them can't play together. So there's a lot to figure out, but there's just too much goddamn talent in order to be so bad next year. So I would guess playing if things go right, maybe like the sixth seed. Does that sound right? That would be really fun. I was definitely interested in the Ace Bailey of it all. I know there was a lot of hand ringing.

Not just meteor, but like former players are like, this is stupid. You shouldn't do this and like go about it this way. I took a different approach. Like the draft is a deeply anti-labor practice in and of itself. And this dude trying to exercise some level of autonomy of where he works for like the next four years probably where he's landlocked. At least. For four years, you know, at least. I admired them trying it.

But also I respect the angels and be like, we don't give a shit. You're going to say no to a $50 million. contract. You're not going to who? You're not going to like follow your dreams to play in the NBA? Because you don't want to come to Salt Lake City? Like I respected. I was interested in the story to see

if like this would actually work. You know, if this guy could actually pout his way into a destination that he wanted. Turns out the talent was just too big for the angels to pass up on. But that story

you know, I definitely did keep my eye on. It kind of all broke right for Utah, a team that is in incredible need of this sort of like this sort of potential star creator. And I have no idea where Ace Bailey wanted to go. Like what was his shot he was trying to call on the board? It was Brooklyn, Washington, and I think New Orleans.

Yeah. So he really swooped in right before his dreams came true. But in a way that could be hugely beneficial to the future of the Jets. Like that's just not a player that you're traditionally getting even number five. And so the fact that you can get someone who could be the next great Utah Jazz score, something they have been incredibly hard pressed to find through the draft and otherwise could be a huge moment for them. I've joked on our group chat, group chat that we need the testes rankings. But I think Waz's is backdoor making the case in this pod that maybe we actually

do need those. Who's got the biggest balls coming out of the draft? Well, you rank them by testicle size. This in particular is just a pissing contest. It is I'm not showing up for a physical versus you know who can who will be dared into taking you. And it's like bro you play like 40 college games like at the end of the day you don't

really need a workout bro. Like whatever. All right so we're turning now to the full off season. I think some moves are going to start flying over the weekend. We'll be back on Monday to talk about all of them. Do you guys have any teams before we go that you're eye and you're like, what's going on with those guys?

I mean, for me, it's definitely still the Celtics because, yes, they can move on from Hauser, but guess who makes way more money? Derek White? You know, like, if the right offer comes along for Derek White, do you move on from him? You know, like, I get it. Jalen Brown, everybody's like, oh, relax, cool your jets. Like, where does smoke this fire, kids? Sure. Like, it's not like Jalen Brown is some completely untouchable.

He's not Victor Winiamah, y'all. Are you saying where there's incoming calls there are outgoing calls? Where there's incoming calls. There's call ID, voice message. You're right. Voice mail. Like, you know, people can read the, like, now you don't even have to listen to your voice note. You can read the transcript without opening like, oh shit, they want to offer us.

How many first round is? Wow. Yeah. Oh, shit. They want to give it. Come on now. So I'm still super intrigued by the Celtics and the Miami Heat. Not because I think they're going to do anything because I don't think they're going to do anything.

And that's so intriguing. Is it? This like fucking, oh, big game hunting. The Rouse is the Godfather's going to go big game hunting every offseason. He's going to just do. He's just going to break the thing and he's going to get somebody amazing. Nod up. And it's like, man.

And every time they show Riley's picture on ESPN or first take or something, he just looks older and older. He looks so calcified and cooked. Not saying we're making him a drop out the race Joe Biden, but I'm just like, you know, like this dude is old. And like they just stay in the same place and don't do. And it's like arrogance. We're too proud to make a trade that isn't perfect. All right. That's what I'm watching.

I'm intrigued by the heat's lack of anything going on with them. If you are going to make him drop out of the race, you have to do it in the off season to have a proper primary on who's going to run the heat for the foreseeable future. Look, here's the thing. All the big game hunting you're talking about, I'm going to be honest. Sounds exhausting to me.

I get wanting to just chill a little bit as a person who is fully watched myself while significantly younger than Pat Riley and filled of entirely different stuff, clearly. Like, he's capable of things that I am not, but look, I get it. I get wanting to chill a little bit. What you're hearing is me just hanging,

on for dear life as I get these guys to participate in offseason pod before they start their offseason vacations. So I don't blame you. You don't have to beg in, you don't have to beg me too much, Justin, about our most intriguing teams of the offseason. Because in addition to the Celtics, which I am,

I am eager to see what happens with Derek White. He might cross the line into being too good to just like give up in a situation like this, but we'll see what they end up doing. We'll see what the heat end up doing. I got to throw the Denver nuggets in the ring. I got to see how, like, Ben Tenzer, who's their newly elevated,

I guess he's technically the vice president of basketball operations over there, basically has to pull blood from a stone in terms of finding rotation-worthy talent. Wait, Rob, just for a second. Can I ask you because, and I didn't reach out to Adam directly,

but like I was listening to the podcast he did after they announced the hirings because I wanted to get a better sense of like what the fuck they're doing. Because I don't know why, but people were associating them with Bob Myers, who they would have had to pay the shit out of to get like, that was out there.

And I'm like, that sounds like crazy Reddit fan, wishful thinking, but whatever. But when they say Ben Tenzer has done every job in a front office, what exactly does that mean? Because it seems like he's not a player personnel guy. Right. I'm guessing what it means is he's worked on the cap side. He's worked on the transaction side. He's worked on contract negotiation.

He's worked maybe in some aspect. of player personnel, if not, like, explicitly. So I'm guessing it's just like he's, he's done the rounds, right? Like, he's been in the rotation. He has worn many hats as the front office has been reshuffled over the years. Like, that is the kind of person you want. So you're talking about front office minutiae?

Potentially. I honestly, I'm not super familiar with Ben Tenzer's background. We're going to have to get to know him a little bit better. But the task in front of him for a teen that's already going to be over the first apron, staring down the second apron, which Josh Kronki insists they are not afraid of while also invoking the possibility or nightmare of trading Nicole Yokic.

Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah. Just quickly. What was going on there? I don't know. Just a completely self-inflicted wound just to even throw that in the ether. I literally wanted to scream when I saw that.

And I'm just like, bro, you know you're known as one of the cheapest owners in the league. and in the midst of your bluster about, oh, I'm not cheap, I don't care. It's the rest of roster maneuverings and the blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't want to have to trade Nicole. Why would you ever have to trade Nicola Yokic, bro?

On what fucking planet does the greatest player in the history of your franchise need to be traded? Have to, has to be traded. What the, yo, bro. That just killed me. I have to imagine a lot of it was just lack of media training because you would hope that someone who's grown up in a rich family would be prepared for these moments. But I've seen time and time again people who are elevated to

forward-facing jobs who haven't done those sorts of things that are used to managing meetings or doing things behind closed doors, get in front of a mic and they don't know how to not say what they actually think or like step into something they didn't intend to. Yeah. I hoped because I watched the video of it and just seemed like he was trying to step over something else and just said something and that was that. But you never know. Maybe he also did the other thing and said the quiet part loud. I think there's two components of it. I actually don't think he said the quiet part out loud. Or if he did, it's to the extent that like this is the kind of thing you could say in the office to

someone else. Like this is the nightmare scenario we're trying to avoid. But there are certain things you just do not invoke in public. Like you don't put that thought out there. You don't put that possibility out there because then it's dangling. Now people like us are talking about it. Now everything is sort of framed by this idea. All of that said, him saying he's not afraid of paying the second apron because X, Y, and Z might happen, and then we would have to trade Nicole Yokic.

It sounds like you're afraid of the second apron, my guy. Like, that's exactly what you're describing. You can't invoke trading the greatest player in the history of your life in reference to a second apron and say you're not afraid of it. And also, can somebody explain to me? Like, the Kronkies are fucking rich.

they're not the bus family, guys. Has that ever stopped an ownership group from being cheap before? Richard than God. Why can't they pay executives and coaches? Good question. My God. Many people are wondering. Look, man, I had a couple of people.

I was like, bro, this is, this is worrying. Not that I think he's about to trade yokech. It's just like, what the fuck goes through your mind, bro? That instead of being like, nah, we'll go. right out for that shit when we think it's right. He's like, yeah, and then you have to trade yokech. Like, bro, like, I don't know. If you're this mad at the implication that they might trade yokish, what would happen

if they actually trade yokish? I can't even imagine. You drive to Denver and just start throwing tables? I mean, look, like, I'm not, I'm more tied to yokish than I am to the nuggets. No, we know what I'm saying? Like, I'm leaving Michael Porter bum ass in the dust. The second, the second, Yokic moves on. You put them in the car and you're driving off.

Yeah. Well, let's be practical about this because there is, yes, an ownership responsibility that when your team is ready, you should pay the second apron. You should blow through that line, as Wazz is saying, you should foot the bill for a high-level contending team. There's also the reality of where the nuggets are right now, which is if they spend the taxpayer mid-level exception, they are hard-capped at the second apron. And so their main avenue for actually adding someone who might. do anything in terms of shoring up the back end of the rotation is the exact thing that would

hard cap them at the second day print. And so they are kind of stuck between those possibilities. I think they can bring in more minimum guys. There's sort of the open question if Russ is going to be back with the team or not. He opted out of his, you know, he declined his option, but ultimately that's more of a procedural thing and he could very well still be on the team next season. Ultimately, it's going to come down to what is the taxpayer mid-level market and what can that get you?

Because this is a team that they might have only been one guy away from beating the thunder. Like, they were that close to it. They need a guy that can play on both sides of the floor. They do. Like, they can't go out and get some one-dimensional person. They need somebody that can play for 20 minutes and will not kill you on either side. Not that there's some dynamic, whatever kind of, but like, bro, we can hold a fort down on both sides of the court. People have to guard you, and you're not just some complete sieve basket case on defense.

and yeah, I don't know that that player is out there or available, but that's what they need desperately. Let me throw some names at you. And you guys tell me, if you think any of these are realistic options in terms of the mid-level, in terms of the nuggets, if you think this could possibly happen. Bruce Brown has obviously been out there as a possibility. A Bruce Brown reunion, I think, could make some sense.

If you're looking around this Boston Celtics demolition job, renovation, And you're Al Horford? Yeah. Would Al Horford turn down a possibility to come play backup five for the Nuggets? What does that do with Deke Noggi in his minutes? Well, I think we are. I guess my follow-up is which minutes? I guess Dayron Sharp.

Not Dayron Sharp. Yes. Deeran Holmes. Deron Holmes. Dehran Holmes. Yeah, not Dayron Sharp, but Duron Holmes. Ultimately, like, here's the thing. They do need more of something from Julian Strother, Jalen Pickett.

Duran Holmes, who's coming back from an Achilles injury, we should say, and we're going to have to see what shape he's in. theoretically, Hunter Tyson, I guess. They need some of those guys to be more reliable. Firing Calvin Booth, though, tells us that, like, okay, young guys getting better is probably not enough.

There is an expectation here of actual movement in terms of the construction of this roster, and that's where you get into, is Bruce Brown going to be enough to do that? Is a couple of veteran minimum guys going to do that? Is, you know, post-injury DeAnthony Melton of interest to you? Trent, Tray or Tyos Jones, I guess, for that matter.

Jalen Williams, J. Will, not J. Dub. Like, do any of those guys do anything for the Nuggets? I honestly don't know. What about a Jamal Murray deal? To trade him for two rotation guys. Two guys that could play 25, 26 minutes a game, rather than Murray, who, when he's right, is a great All-Star and all of that shit.

But, like, the injuries. stuff is to me is what's most concerning. I think Jamal Murray in terms of like as a basketball mindset player like when his body is right like I trust this guy in a big moment as much as damn near anybody

but like I think that's the kind of thing because let's face it, nobody wants Michael Porter Jr. And that's the problem. The two guys that they would theoretically trade are probably at the nadir of their values

because Murray even though he did show up at times in the postseason. It's not a big old extension. He's getting paid in 2028, 2029, $57.5 million. So he has four more years in the 40s and 50s. And so I don't know who would be tougher to trade at this point because it seems like everybody's running away

from those big dollar contracts, except for Portland who just traded for Drew Holiday. And you saw what he went for. Yeah. It was for piddling. Yeah. Absolutely. And this is where like the order of operations

is important for the Nuggett. Are you starting from the perspective of we're going to try to use minimums in the taxpayer rate level to improve our team? And we think that's going to be enough. Or are you starting from the perspective of we think we need to make a substantial change to the core? Because we don't believe in the guys on the low end of that talent pool to improve our roster enough that we don't think we're going to be able to get the guys we might want, whatever it may be. Like their situation in which they don't have a lot of draft picks and don't have a lot of opportunities to add players force you into some really difficult conversations about core members really, really quickly. Yeah. I would just say just to name some guys at the end here. And by that I mean teams. Uh, the bucks, similar situation got to prove something to Janus. I don't know how they're going to do it.

Cap strap. None of their players are really all that tradable. I thought someone like Drew who is overpriced, but like maybe just bring him back and take the long term penalty in order to be better now to sell to Janus might have made some sense, but they need something like that in order to convince Janus to stay because I'm worried that we'll get toward the end of the summer and he's like, oh yeah, never mind I actually went out. because he's that kind of guy. And then I also mentioned Portland now overstocked with centers.

I do wonder if like a team like the Lakers sees that and gets a bargain. They obviously are going to be shopping for a center. Then Toronto getting Colin Murray boils in the draft. All of a sudden, have a ton of power forwards. You can't shoot. And you have to wonder like how are they going to unspool

this middling team that they were in a rush to build? I like how you said all of a sudden, as if the same as it ever was, you know? Pretty much since the 2019 title team. Yes, unfortunately. But we will find out. We'll be back Monday evening once the transactions start to fly. Thank you, Isaiah, Bananza, extravaganza.

It's actually a good name. We need to save that for the pod. Yeah. Thank you, Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you on Monday.