The Ringer NBA Show - The Blazers Lock Into McCollum and Lillard, the Raptors’ Post-Kawhi World, and Carmelo Anthony Musical Chairs | Group Chat

Episode Date: August 1, 2019

We break down CJ McCollum’s near-max extension, and what it means for the perennially good-but-not-great Blazers (1:00). Then, we briefly run through what it’s like for a coach and franchise to find out they lost their star free agent (25:10), before talking through some potential Carmelo landing spots (31:41). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Danny Chau Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. Up on our site, The Ringer is breaking down the 40 best singles and albums from 1999, covering Britney Spears, The Backstreet Boys, Maria Carey, and tons more. And to accompany that piece, we filmed our staffers discussing what they agreed and disagreed with from the article and debated what should have won. You can read the piece on The Ringer.com and watch the video at YouTube.com slash The Ringer. Basketball is very good. Kevon Loney is a max player. The Lakers should hire Ernie Grunfold

Kauai should sign with the Warriors Basketball is very good Hello and welcome to the ring era NBA show I am Justin Verrier and joining me in studios Danny Chow Danny hit it This is the Crew Trash

Yeah there we go Alternate alternate title This is slow news day with Kevin Clark We are Danny Chow and Justin Verrier Okay. Get it? It's a little long. I actually don't get it. It's a slow newsday. Oh, it is a slow news day. There you go. See, I am slow because it's just that time of the year, you know? Yeah. We have nothing to talk about. Well, that's a great intro into the podcast that you're just about to listen to. We actually do have a few short things to hit on today. Carmelo Anthony will not go away. So we're going to talk about what the future holds for our favorite wing scorer. But first, I'm Rich Jennifer. Ooh, I like it. Not either of us personally, but C.J. McCollum is extra rich. I guess he was already rich, so he's just even more rich. Yeah. He's wealthy now. So C.J. McCollum signed a $100 million extension over three years on Tuesday. That extension begins in the 2021, 22 season. So two seasons from now, which I guess is how far in advance some of these players think about these things. This is not a max deal, neither of the years nor the dollars are a max amount. But it's pretty close to it. I believe he's only $4 million off of. the three-year maximum that he can get.

McCollum previously signed a four-year, $106 million extension in 2016. So in total, he is now under contract for five years, $157 million. That's an annual value of $31.4 million when you put it all together. Danny, before we get into the big picture, let's talk about CJ in this deal specifically. Is this a good or a bad deal for the Portland Trail Blazers? I mean, I think it's a good deal for the Blazers.

you're looking at a guy who is obviously a very, very talented offensive player. It's under the max, and you could easily argue that CJ deserves the max. I think, you know, in this kind of age we're looking at in the NBA, what you're really looking at is the final year of the contract, and in the final year, it is estimated that CJ will make around $36 million in that final year. That's a tradable asset. It's really two bad contracts with some filler and you could probably make the money work. So he's currently 27. So he would be 32 if my math is correct there five years from now.

That makes sense for him. I guess the sticker price is a little shocking if only because he's never been all NBA. He's never been an all star. And I think we often equate those sorts of dollar signs with that amount. So, but I guess the flip side of that is he is the type of player that the league is trending toward, right? Right. Yeah, and he has always kind of been that player. He is a career 40% three-point shooter. He's a guy who can create his own bucket from three levels of the floor. Those are valuable players. And I think, yeah, we haven't really seen him in that first option role very often.

I think the last time there was a lot of hype around that was probably two seasons, two or three seasons ago. now, when we kind of saw, you know, Lillard go down with a little knick-knack injuries and CJ kind of rising up to the four. Over the past two seasons, we've really seen C.J. and Dame kind of become this inseparable duo. Last year, they spent 86% of their playing time together, whereas I think they only average, he only averaged like five minutes a game without Lillard on the floor. It's kind of like you and I.

Yeah, right. Seriously. Well, that's a good point to pivot to the kind of context the Blazers are signing him here to. So it is appropriate in the same summer that CJ signs his extension. Damien Lillard also signed an extension. Lillard signed this summer for four years, $196 million. That is the Supermax. It's a lot of money.

That one will also begin in the 2021-22 season. So in total, Lillard and McCollum over the next five years will earn 203.4. million dollars. So, I mean, on the one hand, it makes some sense. The Blazers, what more can they do if they do want to keep going forward with this core? But it does kind of beg the annual question we have about the Blazers and about this partnership in particular. Is this worth that sort of money? The CJ and Dame pairing? I mean, I guess if you're the Blazers, you kind of have to do it, right? Like, the closest kind of approximation to what the Blazers are doing in continually running back their core.

I mean, are they the modern Atlanta Hawks? I mean, just a team that's always going to be there. They're always going to be good. And, I mean, the Hawks had the longest, one of the longest postseason streaks in active streaks in the league for a really long time. The Joe Johnson era Hawks. Yeah, the Joe Johnson, Alhorford, Josh Smith.

They were competent for a really long time. And they were just kind of biding their time, waiting for LeBron to have some sort of freak injury, it never happened. And so they kind of were cast aside. But I mean, the Blazers have obviously shown that, you know, they have staying power. And I think, you know, the whole idea of, you know, them making the conference finals this year, it adds a certain probably perception of momentum for the front office for the ownership. You know, that this is, you know, something worth pursuing.

Right. I think the problem with the Hawks that they ran into is they never had the high that the Blazers just experience. And now I guess the question is how much should you really read into that? Yeah, they have. The Hawks? Yeah, they made the conference finals. The Hawks made the conference. Oh, you're talking about like the Al Horfer and Kyle Corver Hawks. Eventually. I see, I don't equate those two teams together. That was kind of a separate era. No? Because they had gotten rid of Joe Johnson. They got rid of Josh Smith. That was a completely separate team, I feel like. Whereas the Blazers have really been consistent with this throughout. I mean, I guess we're just splitting hairs at this point. But sure, yeah, the Hawks did have their moment. But I guess the question is, how much should we read into just the more recent playoff performance? Yeah. Simply because who did they beat in the postseason?

First, it was Oklahoma City, a team that had to really just disband as a result of the loss. And then the Nuggets who... You know, that was, I mean, that was a back and forth, like, brawl between those two, like, seven games, extremely explosive, both ends of the floor. They could have easily been on the losing end of that. Almost were. Yeah. And I think this kind of reminds me of actually of the 2015-16 season. You know, it was the season in which the Blazers lost Lamarcus Aldridge.

Damien Lillard becomes the true focal point of the team. they kind of scrap together this like really, you know, inspiring run. You know, they're not like a great team by any stretch, but they make to the second round of the Western Conference Finals. They're dubbed, you know, Warriors Light. There's a lot of internal momentum. And then what do they do? They splurge all their money on like Myers-Leonard

and Evan Turner expecting this kind of internal growth. Right. And so now it's like, you know, we talk about the Blazers. They have their core set for the next. what, six years, five years, whatever? Yeah, I think five years. Yeah. As long as these contracts run.

So, I think Dames runs longer than CJ's. Yeah. So you should mention that. But I think the interesting thing is, yes, to your point, they've done quietly a much better job of filling out around the fringes around these two guys. I think the issue primarily was they really tried to double down on what they had and what they had probably wasn't all that much. They've given themselves a lot of outs here.

The NERCICS contract last year was really good. He took a next step before he kind of suffered that injury. And the encouraging thing for me is that they don't have long-term money beyond these two extensions. So in the 2021-22 season, which is the last year of these extensions, the only money they have other than the C.J. and Dame contracts, Nerkich has a partial extension. And then Anthony, Anthony Simons and Nazir Little are on their rookie contracts. Right. That's pretty good. Yeah. And so you can easily kind of fill out the rest of the roster, however you see Fed, especially if, you know, one of them ends up being traded. I mean, it kind of just speaks to the eternal question of how long should a team just kind of continue being above average.

Right. Honestly, I think they're probably the case for continuity. Yeah. They've managed to remain competent and competitive. and I think that you've seen a few tweaks around the fringes really pay off in recent years. Yeah, and I think with Dame, he might be older than you think he is. He's 29, but he also has basically built his game up from his rookie season to have staying power.

He's been one of the most prolific three-point shooters in league history. Up to this point, I think that itself is something that will allow his game to age gracefully into his early mid-30s. He is one of the more explosive kind of players attacking the rim, and maybe that takes a step back. But these past couple of seasons, he's averaged about eight attempts from three per game.

If he gets into that 10 per game threshold, which currently in history has only been occupied by James Hardin and Steph Curry, Paul George came really close last year, but he averaged 9.8. if Lillard gets to that 10, gets to 11, 12 attempts per game, that changes, you know, the trajectory for the Blazers. That allows them to stay competent for a very, very long time. Right.

I guess the other hand would be, or the other side of that argument, would be that he is a smaller guard. And as we've witnessed with Chris Paul. He's 6-3, though. He's 6-3 with a pretty strong frame. Like, I don't really consider him on the small side. I consider him on like,

he's basically a average sized point guard. Have you ever stood next to him? I mean, I'm a really short person. So like I, it really like... Everyone looks tall to me. Yeah. Maybe he's 6'3. Yeah.

But it is, it is concerning as we talk about Chris Paul and like what his future is, he's around that same age that we're talking about Dame when he'll kind of reach the back end of that contract when he'll be making 50 million or so. Right. I guess the encouraging thing is, In the midst of having this little run that they're on,

the Blazers have done a good job of taking swings in targeted ways. So specifically in the draft, they've kind of tried to focus on high upside guys who could potentially really hit. Zach Collins is a perfect example of this, a guy that I think everyone's really high on. And they followed that up by getting Simons, a kid that not a lot of people knew about,

but all of a sudden, everybody in the league wants to say that this kid could potentially be a factor there. I think they're counting on him to run that second union because if they're not going to stagger Dame and CJ, he's really going to have to be the primary ball handler now that Evan Turner is in Atlanta. And Little, I believe, is a similar type of player? Yeah, he was a top three recruit coming out. I think he was actually ranked higher than Zion.

We all saw how that went. He didn't really have a great season with North Carolina. He showed a little bit of flash in a couple games, but really it was the disappointment of a season. The Blazers are really banking on the talent that they inherently have and their player development to kind of bring it out. Right. And yeah, like with Zach Collins, me, Charks and the entire like Corner 3 crew have been, you know, singing his praises for years now. But it's going to be a different, you know, experience for him now that he's basically being slotted in as a starting four. Right. Yeah. And you would assume that they're going to want him to flash to five a lot, especially if Hassan Whiteside doesn't work, especially if Paul Gasol is washed as we all, I believe, assume he is. But ultimately, it's going to come down to the CJ and Dame core. I mean, throughout the league, we're seeing these partnerships, essentially being the key to a lot of teams, not a big three league anymore. It's a big two league, yada, yada, yada. Everyone's been talking about this. But I do think it's interesting. We've been, we've had them for a very long time in our lives.

and I do wonder if we perhaps don't appreciate how good this pairing really is. And so I do wonder if you lean into that sort of partnership. Maybe it's not the worst thing in the world. So, I mean, I wrote this down. In terms of backcourts, where does this even stand?

I mean, so just so rattle off a few, let's say, Steph Curry and DeAngelo Russell, the Warriors, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, the Rockets. Ben Simmons, Josh Richardson. How many of these are better than C.J. and Day? How much would you prefer?

I would say Hardin and Westbrook are like number one by far. I would say any back court with Steph Curry is suddenly transcendent just because Steph can kind of do that by himself. After that, it gets murky. I think I would easily have them, or I would feel very comfortable having them. number three. Murray and Harris in Denver,

as we saw, CJ and Dame best of them in the playoffs. Mitchell and Conley is a new one that could be intriguing depending on, yeah.

Yeah, depending on how Mitchell kind of adapts to Conley probably playing on the ball far more often than... Right.

And others to kind of throw out, you know, barring injury, Kyrie and Karris in Brooklyn, Ola Depot and Brogden in Indiana.

Obviously not necessarily the star ceiling. But like in terms of like complimentary talent there, like it, you know. I'm glad that we got a Brogden dimension in here. It's been a little while. It's been almost two podcasts as we managed to do that. We got a shout out our future president, you know?

Sure. Get in there early. Get the buttons going. Yeah, no, I think they're right up there. Stefan D. Angel is one that I'm particularly intrigued by. Yeah. If we're just saying backcorts, I think that while they don't have the defensive vacuum that you would prefer, I mean, neither did.

CJ and Dame. So I do wonder if this is almost like a southern West Coast version of this. I don't know how would you approximate geographically. Yeah. The Bay Area to Portland. But it is similar enough. And when you factor in kind of the context of the entire team, the Warriors have a few more defenders to kind of make up for those lacking qualities. I don't know. I'm silently, like quietly high on the Warriors for sure. I just kind of believe that Steph Curry's going to be made He just makes people better

He just makes players better So I can't imagine Russell at least on the offensive end Being a detriment to the team Right And they've been hanging out together Which is always a good sign Which is this is the part of the summer

Where we convince ourselves That guys working out together Is the key to everything Now do you think I guess circling back to CJ I wonder about how he Like, I think Dame will be fine, but if you're securing this back court, both of them are listed at 6-3, you don't seem to think they're 6-3. I believe CJ a little bit more than Dame.

Yeah. So neither of them are defensive dynamos. Sure. Are you comfortable with this specific back court, you know, carrying into, you know, 20-20s? Sure. I think for the reasons, as you mentioned, just the shooting will probably never, the shooting will age well.

And I think that they've done a good job of filling out around there to kind of cover up their weaknesses. And if the league is going to stay this way, which who knows, it will probably be completely different next year. Right, because we just actually, for one of the back courts that we mentioned,

Simmons and Josh Richardson, that's a three and a five playing at the one and two. So like, you know, who knows? Yeah. Well, let's take a look at the West right now. Like, where would we slot in Portland just based on this core this season? Right. I think they'd be up there.

I mean, the more I look at this roster, the more I'm kind of intrigued. And disclaimer, it does have something to do with the fact that they signed Mario Hozonia. I completely forgot about that. Yeah, like, I think this team will look much different from the Blazers that we've seen in the past couple years. I think we kind of focus on the core that they have, the two. their two best players being like, okay, so they're here, you know,

the team's obviously the same as it will ever be. But Hassan Whiteside cannot do the things that Yusuf Nerkich did. Yusuf Nerkich became a fantastic facilitator for them. He really gave them

another playmaking presence. You're not getting that out of Whiteside. They're going to have to change the way they play, you know, the pick and rolls. Zach Collins, who has been like this kind of like low usage all-star

for a lot of our, a lot of us, he's suddenly thrust into this big role, that dude can't get at, that dude can't stay out of foul trouble. So like, that's a big concern. And,

you know, they got rid of Mo Harclis and Aminu who, you know, were some of their best defenders and replaced them with guys who are much more, you know,

questionable defensively, but can kind of create their own shot. So guys like Rodney Hood, who they brought back, Mario Hizonia, who is a complete wildcard, Kent Bazamore, who is probably now their best defender.

So it's a different team. It's going to be a different dynamic. There are a lot of new guys coming in who, you know, it's not necessarily continuity. They're going to have to like figure out how to play with these two guys. It's going to be interesting. And for that reason, like, I can't, I don't know if I can just kind of slot them in

to a high seed the way that they have been in the past two seasons. I think they're kind of more in the like the 5-7 range. They traded in a lot of known quantities. Yeah. For a lot of guys with upside. But we haven't seen them prove it yet. Right. And we're all high on a lot of these, some of these prospects.

Simons is a guy who seems like you would fit what they're going to do. Collins, as you mentioned. But like, as much as Evan Turner was overpaid and ultimately became the symbol for a lot of things that went wrong that summer. Yeah. He was a steady hand who can guide that second unit. That's a useful player. Yeah. And I think that's kind of why I think they'll actually have to start staggering Lillard and

I'm a column again, just because they need that kind of baseline continuity across their different positions. I don't think it's time for Anthony Simons to be given the reins and, like, you know, lead a team for like 20 minutes off the bench, you know? You didn't read all those blogs, though? He's going to be the next guy. I'm not sold yet. The dude just doesn't have many reps, and we just don't know what that looks like in game action. Yeah, almost literally no reps. Yeah.

Except for that one game at the end of the season where they played like six guys. Yeah, and he dropped like 40-something points or something. Right. So if you could just do that every game. Sure. They'll be fine. I guess the one thing they have going for them is how many teams are just juggernauts in this Western conference now? Even a team like the Clippers, where I think we all have high expectations for Bobby,

our intrepid producer, just told us right before we recorded that apparently Patrick Patterson is getting bought out and he's going to go to... Oh my God, what a travesty. Go to the Clippers. So that's another four that they need in the mix here. who, I mean, I don't expect much from Pat Pat our guy anymore, just considering just the horrific run he had in Oklahoma City,

but the one spot that they're kind of soft at is that maybe small ball center forward type. They have Jamichael Green who did well for them last year. Montres Harrell will be fine, but in certain situations you might not want to play him because he's not going to be able to shoot it. Patrick Patterson, in the ideal form, really fits what they need. Yeah, that nothing is nothing.

This is a nothing burger of a story. He's out here to be at movie premieres. I know he's a big movie buff. Right. He's here to catch all those releases. I don't think he's contributing. He's going to be at the Hobbs and Shaw premiere. Had come on big picture. Oh, I would love that.

Yeah. I'll talk to Sean. Thank you, Bobby. So if we're slotting the Blazers in the West here, where would they fit in the hierarchy? I kind of feel like they are a high upside. now, but I feel like their floor is a lot lower than it was in past, which is funny because last year, a lot of people were saying, oh, they're not going to make it in playoffs anymore because

they got embarrassed by the Pelicans. I think we can kind of recalibrate our expectations now. They're going to be a playoff team, obviously. But I think if all of the four top West teams come close to their potential, I don't think the Blazers necessarily have that to match. So the four are the Clippers, the Lakers, the Nuggets. Nuggets. And then between that, it's like, well, the Warriors are still good. The Warriors might be good. The Jazz are a good regular season team, definitely.

See, that's the key for me. I think there are a lot of good regular season teams and a lot of good playoff teams. I don't think the Lakers will be particularly good in the regular season. Even though they have a deep roster because they ended up chopping up the money that they were going to give to Quay Leonard, a lot of those guys just aren't very good, and they're counting a lot on Anthony Davis, playing a lot of games, LeBron, playing a lot of games, and Kyle Coosma, quite frankly, being better than he, like, people think he is. My God, his 2K ratings is, is...

Oh, right. What was it, 83? It was like, I think it's like 86. So, yeah, that's way too high. I mean, I feel like I'm a Kyle Coosma moderate. I don't know if I'm necessarily a hater, but there are a lot of people who love Kyle Coosma and think that he's just this incredible player. He's a score. He's like a heat check score

who hasn't proven that he's a consistent. assisted in enough three-point shooter. You know, you get buckets enough, you get enough buckets, and it's like... Right, the key is buckets. Yeah, it's all people remember. The Rockets, we should mention, too, another team that could be particularly good in the regular season. No, actually, that was the team that I was blanking on.

They would round out my four. Yeah, I guess the Blazers are an interesting mix of those two types of teams, the regular season team and the playoff team, because I feel like I'm done counting them out in the regular season, there's been enough situations where they've just happened to end up as the three-seat. It's like, how the hell did we get here again? And it's always because of the rockets. Right, yes.

I think the silver lining, though, is if they make it through the white side experiment, if they can kind of cobble together enough in terms of rotation with young guys and some of these veterans that they're picking up as stopgaps, they'll eventually have use of Nurkich back. As we saw last season, he made a significant an impact on their defense.

And if we're saying a team like the Lakers could hit another level in the playoffs, potentially the Blazers could as well. Yeah, it's also, you're looking at a really big boy who broke his leg. It's going to take, I think, a lot more conditioning for him to get back to game shape. So, I mean, it would be amazing to see him kind of 100% going in the playoffs. But I'm expecting, you know, a full, like, the use of Nurkich experience that we saw last year, I'm kind of doubting it comes next year. Yeah.

So I guess we'll see. Before we take a quick break here, we've got some Raptors news. Oh, we do. Yeah. So Jackie Mack, VSPN, wrote a wonderful piece on kind of what happens with coaches when they figure out, you know, their star players are leaving. And there's just a small little tidbit in there about Nurse seeing Toronto Raptors coach Nick Nurse. seeing... He's a one-name guy now.

Yeah. Him seeing Fred Van Vleet and Pascal Skiakum the day after Kauai was signed with the Clippers and was like, look, there's going to be 20 plus shot attempts for you both. You know, they're going to be up for grabs.

Are you guys ready? And Fred Van Vleet, Pascal Seacom are both like rubbing their right shoulders and they're like, we're ready, coach. Okay. And there was like, there was a note from Jackie about how Nurse was thinking about playing Seacum at the three, which kind of goes into this whole idea of, you know, maybe the NBA is just going to be huge again or huger than it's ever been, actually. Right. Danny is, of course, referring to my masterpiece of a blog post that I wrote a couple weeks ago. No, but basically I suggested if the Warriors, death lineup isn't around to chase centers off the floor. Maybe teams can go a little bit bigger.

Right. We might see some teams size up, especially because bigs are getting a little bit more versatile. I mean, Pascal Seacum is a perfect example, a guy who played the four for the most part. But, you know, he has the body type to be a three. Perhaps he could be more of a swing guy. Yeah. And in the finals, he was doing some stuff that I had, honestly, there was, in each game,

there was one possession that he had every single game where I was like, I've never seen him do this before. I don't know what he's capable of. He was just like, they're one leg, you know, fadeaways, you know, shots off the dribble that I'd never seen him do. He's kind of more of a static corner three type shooter. But, I mean, that's really the big thing. And it's something that you hit on in your piece about Big Ball is that, look, you can play all these big guys together, but eventually they're going to have to hit a shot. Yeah.

And Pascal Seaccom in the playoffs shot 27% from three. He shot 37% from three in the regular season. and 38% from the corners, but you really kind of need him to be a more of a dynamic shot creator from, you know, distance for him to kind of take that next level and be a three. For the listeners at home, Danny just rattled those stats off his head. Have you just been cramming on Raptor statistics this entire summer? No, I was just, look, I'm a professional.

I did my research before we did the podcast. We don't do that on the group. group chat podcast, Danny. I know you've only been back for a couple episodes here, but we usually just swing from the hip. Swing from the hip? Shoot from the hip. You shoot from the hip. I mean, you can swing from the hip. That's generally where you're gyrating, you know, so it's usually where the swinging happens. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Pascal will have to be the guy there. I remember when I wrote our exit survey for the Raptors, assuming that they would be out in the second round. And

And I kept having to update it each round until they won the NBA title. He had ISOed second most on that team and it wasn't that far off from Kwai Leonard. So if he is going to be that guy, it seems like he was getting the type of reps you would want from that sort of player. I mean, there was that one game that I caught live when I was in Toronto in January. He basically got an isolation possession against the Sons with like three seconds left. And I was just like, he caught it from the top of the arc. And I'm like, what the hell is going on here? He did his famous spin move and got all the way to the lane.

I'm like, I can't believe they ran this for him. But that's the type of player that the entire franchise kind of sees him as. So good luck, yeah, good luck with those extra shots, buddy. Yeah, I guess the one thing that will be interesting will be how they reincorporate OG and and an OB. Yeah. We need to mention once a podcast. So I just wanted to get in there.

No, but... The Charks Clause. The Charks Clause, yes. I just, I thought it would have been interesting had he been there in the finals. Obviously, it didn't matter because they won anyway. But in order to combat a potential small ball lineup from the Warriors, that death lineup that we referred to earlier, what a Pascal at the five lineup would have what kind of look like. Now, they don't necessarily have the resources with Kauai gone there. They're trying to, they're taking flyers on a lot of wings.

It's really strange. And the big thing is, like, I don't even consider. consider any of them wings. I don't think... So who is it? It's Rondea Hollis Jefferson. Stanley Johnson. So two guys who have defensive reputations but can't shoot. Right. I think Ronnie Hollis Jefferson is 6-7, one of the best athletes in the NBA, but has the skill set of a 5, which makes him a 5.

Well, that's interesting, though, because if Pascal does develop a consistent 3-point shot, and OG develops a consistent 3-point shot, all of a sudden you could make that sacrifice. So if you're looking at Pascal O.G. Let's say Ronde. That works if Ronde functioned. And Stanley Johnson. That's four different guys who are six, seven, and taller, who have the, you know, capabilities of guarding a four.

I think this is like the, this is like the theoretical all-star team that they've assembled. Also, no one can shoot on that team. Yeah, I mean, these are the, that's true. These are the type of risks, though, I think you need to take it for a team in that situation. You want to just, you want to bet on high upside. You want to bet on pedigree and talent.

And, like, what else are they going to do this season? They're probably going to, at some point, part ways with Marcus Saul. We'll see what happens with Kyle Lowry, whether or not he wants to be kind of the guy who stays there long term and just finishes his career there and eats Tim Hortons with Danny for the next couple of years. Sergei Baca. Another, yeah, another expiring contract

who could potentially be useful for a team, you know, on that contending cusp, assuming the Raptors kind of take a, a big step back. Well, that's enough Raptors news for the middle of the summer as they prepare for a season where they'll be probably irrelevant. So we're going to take a quick break here. We're going to come back and talk about Mello. All right, we're back.

Danny, Bobby, chiming in from behind this wall occasionally. We're going to talk about Carmel Anthony here. Perhaps the last time we might be able to do so. It seems like there's a bit of a movement happening. Or I guess a one-man movement. movement. Well, maybe because Damian Lillard recently called out in very

cryptic tweets where I think he's kind of rallying for one more season for Mello, though it wasn't articulated particularly well. They're in hashtag forms. One is vote for Mello farewell season. Well is

capitalized. And then hashtag stop playing Mello, which is confusing because he's advocating you assume for Mellow to play, but he's saying, stop playing milk. This is, this is a case for, you know, certain punctuations.

You know, if you had a comma there, stop playing comma, mellow, then that means, you know, you should stop playing. But there's no comma in here. Because you can't put a comma in hashtags. As editors, this really gets at my core. Right. Yeah,

so more grammar consciousness from some, from Dame would be appreciated, although he did later Clarify when a Blazers fan was like, hey, you should, you should sign him. Blazers should sign him. And he's like, we don't have money. Don't have money. So he's really, he really passed.

Like me and CJ just took all the money. There's no money left. Right. And he also said that Mel should indeed still be playing. So basically he's passing the buck off. The other thing is like there are other things happening in the ether. Perhaps because it's such a slow news part of the season. Chris Brickley, trainer, extraordinaire, very online.

apparently has an ESPN show or online show going on. He was on the Breakfast Club, believe it or not. And he said the following, Mello is better than 70% of players walking around. Period. Walking around Earth. Right, including you. I would hope so.

He says teams are scared off by Mello because Mello is presumed to want to start. He also says that Mello just wants a farewell season, which is the thing that kind of troubles me. is that the people who are advocating for Mello aren't necessarily saying, hey, he could really help a team. It's more that he wants

the Dwayne Wade send-off. Right. So, I don't know. You know who else wanted that send-off? Paul Pierce. Right. He didn't really get it. Right.

You can't really beg for it. It feels like something that's pretty organic, right? It is a little desperate, and while Mello himself hasn't participated in it, apparently he's going on first take on Friday. I saw. So he is leaning into it a little bit.

And there does seem to be an influx of those training run videos in the summer that we always get at Brickley's Gym and some of these others in L.A. and New York often. I mean, it's gotten to a point where, like, public opinion has fallen so low with Mello. And I really don't even have any takes of my own. It's just, like, I'm absorbing so much of the vitriol that has come from, like, people talking about Mello over the past couple years that, like, when I saw him dunk, I was like, holy crap, he could still dunk. I didn't realize he could still dunk. Technically. Yeah, he was more of a hop.

Sure. Well, I mean, he, yeah, but still, like, I, from the way that we've talked about him, it's like, man, this guy can't even walk pretty much. On defense, that's true. Well, he, that's my choice. Well, at a certain point, you know, he's not really, no lateral movement there to perhaps recover or do anything else. So, yeah, you're right, though. I think the public opinion has perhaps swayed a little bit too far where Mello has become the poster boy for DJ Foster made the case that for this like anti-analytical movement that happened a few years ago. Basically when analytics caught up to everything, when Kobe was found to be perhaps not as good of a player as we all assumed he was based on how inefficient he was, particularly in the RIP your mentions.

I know. I really should have phrased that better, but we're going to keep powering on. Mello really became the symbol for all that was wrong. He took a lot of mid-range jumpers, was reluctant to play the four when that seemed to be his best position. Overall, though, was still a fine player. And I think the case that DJ made for us

in a piece that went up on the ringer today was in Houston and even in Oklahoma City. He wasn't all that bad. In Oklahoma City, he played 78 games. He ended up averaging 16 points. six rebounds, 1.3 assists, with a lower usage rate than he's accustomed to, I believe is in 23

range. He's more of a 30-usage guy. And his net rating 5.2. And that's a positive. That's not a negative. That's not that bad. Now, in Houston, things took a bit of a turn. He played 10 games. He scored 13.4

points per game, shot 40% from the floor, 33% from 3. Not great. 5.4 rebounds. 0.5 assists. Now, I know it was 10 games and the sample size is completely thrown off as a result of that, but

0.5 assists? Don't you just like stumble into an extra assist there? Look, man, I mean, the rockets were playing a lot of ISO ball. So, I mean, I'm assuming once he caught the ball, he wasn't really giving it to anyone else. Right. Or he was playing off of Hardin,

perhaps catching shooting more. Ended up with a negative 9.9 net rating. Not very good, But if we kind of flash back to the circumstances of the Rockets earlier in that season, he really wasn't in a position to succeed. They had all those injuries. Some of the flyers they took that offseason didn't really pan out. And so they were left playing Mello more.

I believe he played like 29 minutes a game. Right. And they were probably going to him more than they ever expected. So I don't know if it's like fair to paint Mello's current status based on that situation. It's just more that like, what does he look like as a true role player? It's a great point. And even in those training videos from this summer at the Berkeley gym,

it was a lot of him just backing down Kobe style, taking one dribble fade away. Look, he's, I think what we're looking at, and if he does come back, what is his game at this point? He is a stretch for who's going to want to cook. He's going to want to dance. He's going to want to, you know,

take guys off the dribble and kind of show off what Mello has always done. Can he be a guy who reliably spots up from the corners and just kind of stands there and takes those shots? He's never been a particularly good three-point shooter. So do you really want him in that role? But he is the type of guy who is a good shooter. Right. And I think that's the distinction a lot of NBA players make that perhaps like us in the media don't. It seems like the fact that a lot of defenders were scared of those sorts of shots. from Mellow matter. And I think that's something to take note

not only just from just like a personal standpoint, just on just like the guys having to respect that and perhaps that's something we should take note of, but also the idea of gravity. If guys think he's a good shooter, they're probably going to guard him a little bit closer, which opens up things from everybody else. And as we've seen, he's very good at standing around.

Yeah. So perhaps if you just put him in a corner, that's good enough to do something. I just, I honestly don't, like, If it didn't work for the Rockets, if it didn't work for the Thunder, I mean, how many teams are actually going to be looking at them? Well, outside of the Lakers. So what's the list?

What team makes the most sense for someone like that? I only have one team on my list. Okay. And it's the most irrelevant team in the NBA, the Charlotte Hornets. Hmm. Like, who is going to be, one, taking his shots to, like, they don't have a name brand anymore with Kemba out. They have Cody Zeller and Co.

I think in DJ Foster's piece, Marvin Williams is the highest scoring, returning player on that team. That is insane. North Carolina legend, baby. I love PJ Washington. I love what Miles Bridges can possibly do in his sophomore year.

But look, this team isn't really going anywhere, so might as well give Mello all of the shots he can get, I guess. I guess. He's not going to work. win them a bunch of games if that's what they're worried about. It puts mellow in an interesting position because he ultimately just becomes like a show pony

in that situation. But on the other hand, it seems like that's what people are advocating for. Yeah. That a player of his caliber, well, they have Dwayne Bacon. He cooks. That's right there in the name. No, no, bacon doesn't cook. Bacon gets cooked.

Hmm. Give me a lot to think about here. that makes a lot of sense I mean Mello's a Jordan brand guy so perhaps Jordan would have some influence there or perhaps like he would feel something for Mello and want to really do him a solid which really raises some questions about

whether or not that relationship is something that should exist in the NBA to begin with. Foster brought up in his piece the Pistons is a potential team if only because I think they're a team that just need something to happen. It seems like they're at least a year away from clearing some money off their books. They're really committed to the drummond

Blake Griffin thing. Markief Morris. I'd rather play him. I don't even, like, I can't remember Markief Morris even playing after he left the Wizards. I know he was on the Thunder, but I just don't remember him doing anything positive for that team. I guess another team in Detroit who could really use Mel's profile and attention. They really need people out to that new arena that they have downtown. It just seems like nobody's ever there.

It makes some sense. I think they do have, as DJ alluded to, some wing defenders who could potentially cover him if he is indeed going to play on that second unit. The other team he mentioned was the Warriors. Hmm. You know, okay. I mean, yeah, they are a team that has basically thrown a lot of dice rolls this offseason, picking up a lot of younger guys who have potential.

Maybe it's time to swing the other way on the pendulum. Now, they are up against the hard cap. They, I believe, are 200,000, according to SpotTracks data, up. against the apron, which means that they cannot go over that, even though Mello is a veteran minimum, who you can often just slot in there regardless of how much it is, but that would take them way over. So they would have to lose somebody in order to add Mello. And so all of a sudden, you're doing way too much just to give Carmelo Anthony a chance. And I really don't think, even though they are going to open that new arena, they really need much publicity.

Right. At this point, I'm kind of talking myself into him fitting on most teams. Wow. Is that weird? I just think that he could be a serviceable player. Yeah. No, I agree. It's just, man, perception is really hard to shake sometimes.

I don't know how I've come to this point, where I've gone the complete opposite way, where I feel bad for him, that I think he does deserve some sort of send-off. Right. And, like, if this is the end, like, what, how do you remember him? How will you remember him? As a disappointment.

As a guy who... chose money and the New York market over perhaps what was best for him. I also think whether it was his agent or his own decision, not timing his contract in order to be a free agent at the same time as Dwayne Wade and LeBron James and Chris Bosch was a potentially career-altering decision. Sure. We could have had a big four at a certain point. I don't know how it would have worked.

That's a lot of money, man. A lot of money, especially at that point in their careers, but like maybe further down the road, something would have happened. and yada, yeah. I mean, he could have had that opportunity again if he'd just gone to the Bulls. Right. Instead of taking the extra money with the Knicks,

he could have gone, well, the Lakers weren't much of a team at that point. The Rockets, he could have gone to the Rockets earlier. Man, so was, like, Mello the true death knell of New York as a destination? Potentially. I mean, he did rob that team. I mean, he didn't personally,

but the Knicks decided to just cast away, like, all of their serviceable role players, who, by the way, a lot of them are still in the league. And O'Gallinari is still a really helpful player. Yeah. Wilson Chandler is still kicking around. I think, is he on the Clippers? He's on the Nets.

He did sign with the Nets. That's right. So, I don't know. But at the same time, he made them relevant in a way that they hadn't been in a very long time. They'd been associated with just complete and abject failure. They at least had a moment in that one season where everything did go right. Yeah.

And I think in terms of his legacy, as far as style and as far as, as culture, like, he is an influential player. Yeah. Before Kevin Durant became Kevin Durant, you talked about Mello and Kobe as, like, the two purest scorers in the NBA. And I think that's kind of how I'll remember him as, like, this kind of time capsule for this post-Jordan era of, like, we still kind of fetishized this certain type of scoring wing, this guy of, you know, who has a platonic ideal of an offensive skill set, who can

create his bucket anywhere. But as he transitioned to the, you know, later aughts, and it became later odds, and even in the 2010s, when he became apparent that you should probably play the four. He kind of stayed kind of stubborn in his insistence that he was a three, even though he played probably some of his best years on the Knicks as a four for Mike Woodson. I don't know. It's interesting because I was talking to you about this a few days ago in the office.

It was just like, Mello is so much more relevant than Paul Pierce's, but it's hard to say Paul Pierce didn't have a better NBA career. He probably did. I mean, he has the final MVP. Yeah. And even though we do factor in all these nuanced statistics and all these other things, it ultimately does come down to success. I think, I mean, Bill has always said that if a player is good enough, he should be able to bring a team to a conference finals. And although Mel went to one, at a time when he picked his own destination and perhaps had the perfect opportunity to pick his own contacts and really focus on that more than anything, he didn't do so. And so ultimately, we'll probably think of him as someone who just didn't live up to all our expectations and whose image did not match. match the reality.

But on the other hand, I mean, I think the fact that that exists is why we're so disappointed, that he was such a talented player, a player that we all kind of fell in love with when he had that magical season as Syracuse, which as a Yukon fan is tough for me to say, but he was awesome

that year. Yeah, and truly, I think some of his offensive showcases have been one of the best. Like, we will remember him as one of the best offensive players in league history. Yeah. Whether that bears out with the numbers or not. Like, it's, it's so ingrained.

His style of play is so ingrained in this specific era that we're watching. He helped define an era. Yeah. And part of that is because the NBA is probably more popular than ever. And he just happened to be very close friends with just some of the best players ever. Yeah. Like the LeBron Mello rivalry never really bore out. but I think that kind of

the fact that they were entwined so early in those first couple seasons really helped power that post-Jordan malaise that the NBA was feeling. I think that in itself is very, very important. He was a 10-time All-Star. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to popularity.

On the other hand, like, you know, he had some of the more memorable seasons in recent history. So do you think he should get another shot? Yeah, why not? Yeah. That's what it comes down to. I would rather him play than not play.

Yeah. Because otherwise he's just going to be showing up at like Nick's games and weird hats and just looking all sullen. Right. I mean, you know, he has like business ventures that he needs to tense you, right? Yeah, that was also not a bad, not a good look for him when he was doing ESPN cover stories on his tech like interests when he was still like in the prime of his career. I think it was only like three or four years ago. Right. Probably not the best move.

But we'll see what happens from here And we will see what happens Over the course of the next week Hopefully there'll be a lot to talk about Danny might not be with us For a little while He's going up north Yeah, two months in Toronto

Yeah, how you feeling? Really excited for it I think I blew your big announcement Last week When I went to the fact that you're doing this Somehow like people were like Oh, is Danny not going to be like around? I was like, oh

People actually listen to this podcast Apparently. Well, hopefully the people who are listening to it now, we'll join us again next week. For Danny and for Bobby, I'm Justin. We will talk to you next week. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.