The Ringer NBA Show - The Brook Lopez Game Trumped the Kyle Lowry Game | The Ringer NBA Show

Episode Date: May 16, 2019

We recap a hard-nosed win for the Milwaukee Bucks over the Toronto Raptors in Game 1 of the Eastern Conference finals—one that featured a solid performance from Giannis and an outstanding one from his supporting cast (2:08). Then we bounce around to some other news from the league, including Blazers players’ comments about Terry Stotts’s pick-and-roll defense, the Pelicans' chance to draft Zion Williamson, and the NBA coaching carousel (21:09). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. Before you get to the show, make sure you check out the ringer.com for our extensive NBA playoff coverage leading up to the NBA finals. Also look out for a 2019 NBA draft guide, which now features 50 of Kevin O'Connor's scouting reports. The draft guide has a first round mock draft, big board rankings from our draft experts like Jonathan Charks and Danny Chow, and much more to come leading up to the draft itself on June 20th. Once again, check out the Ringer's 2019 NBA draft guide. and all of our NBA coverage over on the ringer.com. Basketball is very good. Seth Curry is the best curry.

The Sixers should trade for Landry Shannon. The playoffs are better without LeBron. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I am Justin Vary and joining me in studio. It's the one, the only. It's Chris Ryan. What's up, man?

How are you? Back-to-back nights for us. Yeah, we're getting after it. We're just cramming tape. We're just in the studio, just doing the work. Nighttime is the right time for you and I to break down Slob plays, get those ATOs charted. I've always said that about us. Is that a funny bit that we do who are always laughing about that?

I think people on Twitter don't appreciate it. Really? Well, I think there is a community of people that enjoy that thing and they're all having to be out in line 24-7. There's so many different ways to love this game. Right. Ours is to, I don't know, I guess, talk about people. getting traded. To talk about

Rick Lopez. Wow, that's a great transition. We're going to talk first about the Eastern Conference Finals, game one. We're also going to

get into Warriors Blazers going into game two on Friday night. Talk about some lottery aftermath. We did a whole podcast yesterday about directly after

the lottery, but there's a bit of few things to come out ever since then. And then at the end, maybe do a little bit of coaching. Sure.

Not coaching each other or coaching anyone else. Just talking about the coaching hot, the carousel. Yeah, no. I have nothing bad to say

about coaching. You're a very affirmative coach. Life coaching. But yeah, let's start with the Bucks here, 108,

100 in game one of the Eastern Conference finals against the Toronto Raptors. This game started out looking a lot like game one between

the Bucks and the Celtics. I think all of a sudden it seemed like Janus couldn't get his way. The three-point shooters for the Bucks weren't hitting shots. And as soon as that

happens, you start to wonder if the Bucks system that has been so successful this season was just maybe a little bit too rigid. I think part of that's just because of maybe the type of guys they have on the floor. They don't have a lot of blue chip prospects.

I also think like the preseason expectations play in still to this day where we expect them not to be this good. And so we kind of are silently waiting for them to maybe like be exposed. But as the game went on, those three point shooters came alive, Brooke Lopez, Malcolm Brogden had big games. And then all of a sudden the Raptors were on the other end of this. I guess let's start from the top here for you. What was like maybe the big.

take away not only in this game, but perhaps going into the next game. That it's going to be a rock fight. That this is for as much as, like, Toronto likes to play in the half court, I think. I mean, they'd love to get out and run with Seacom, but for the most part, there's like a certain deliberate nature to their style of play I find with a lot of stuff running through, whether it's Gasol in the high post or letting Kauai play out on the wing and kind of pick his spots. And then Milwaukee, obviously, really great transition team with the honest, but loves to just

driving kick and get those three pointers. I just felt like, regardless of how aesthetically pleasing, they are capable of being, this is going to be like a really physical and grimy series, I think. Yeah, I think from the jump, it seemed like everything that we had hoped the Raptors were going to be in the regular season really came to bear.

I think last series, it ultimately became the Kwai show. Yeah. And I think it became super disappointing when there was just not the type of guys around them, but they spent so long kind of crafting this. team and turning it into this perfect environment so they can make this run and make it worthwhile to really put all their eggs in the Kauai basket. That didn't happen against the Sixers.

I think the Sixers did a good job of pushing them into playing a certain way that they didn't want to play. But in this game, they looked super versatile. And I think the big takeaway coming from this one is that Kyle Lowry just played out of his mind. He had 30 points on 15 shots. And now on the one hand, it's great to see Kyle Lowry step up. up in a game one, something

we all know he does not do very often. Yeah. On the other hand, they had the perfect game one from Kyle Lowry and they still couldn't get it done. I don't think this is over by any stretch of the imagination. I could see them stealing game two. I could see Lowry having a relatively consistent series. I feel like somewhat unfairly

maligned. I know that he's had some pretty big donuts when it matters. But, you know, for some reason he's just been like kind of branded as like a postseason like total loophobic. loser and I think he bears the brunt of past Toronto failures solely, especially because De Rosen's not there anymore. It's just like he's this last vestige of getting steamrolled by LeBron, Toronto.

But I thought he was great tonight. Maybe he should injure his hands more often. It seems like it helped three points shooting a lot. It is really interesting to see, I mean, if you were listening to the broadcast, Reggie brought this up a lot that Kauai's jumper in the second half, even though I think he had like 13 or 15 in the third quarter. his jumpers started looking a little flat towards the end of the third quarter

and I think Nurse kept him in for most of the third quarter this is after I think he played pretty much the entire game seven against Philly on Sunday and there was some fatigue and he was pretty much absent in the fourth quarter which I think was pretty decisive for Toronto at the end of the day

Yeah, Kauai 42 minutes Pascal Seacum 42 minutes Markisal 40 minutes Kyle Lowry 40 minutes They only played three guys off the bench I mean to a certain extent this is what they are I mean, they're on the flip, 37 for Janus, 35 for Middleton, 35 for Lopez, 30 for Bledso, so a little bit more even plus they've been sitting around for a while. Yeah, and the Bucks, I think people were ready to criticize Mike Putinholzer, especially after that game on loss, maybe you play Janus a little bit more.

You have to break away from what you did in the regular season because in the postseason you have to make certain sacrifices that you weren't willing to do on a game to game basis in an 82 game regular season. Perhaps that's actually become an advantage now. Yeah. Not only are these guys not playing a lot of minutes, but they are going deeper into their bench. Certainly helps having a guy like Malcolm Brogden come off the bench and is perhaps like one of the best players on the court

at certain times of this game. I would almost say it seemed like Nurse had a pretty good book on Janus. Like he had a great game, 24 points, goes 9 for 12 from the line, grabs 14 boards, six assists. I mean, that's MVP caliber play. Yeah. But I did feel like they had a plan for him.

They knew what they wanted to do and it was a lot of doubling. and then in the doubling, there was some cheap tripling going on, and it was really forcing him to make a lot of under pressure decisions in really uncomfortable places on the court. Do you think that's something that Bud can scheme out of, or is that just something that they're going to have to be like, we're going to win this series based on Bledso, Brogden, Middleton, and Lopez? Yeah, I think that's the way you have to scheme against the bucks,

because there are only so many things you could do against Janus, and especially now that he's, when you were playing off of him, if you're doing what the Celtics tried to do and maybe wait for him to kind of jam into the lane and get ahead of steam, you force him to step back and kind of not only slow down his progress, but maybe have to take a three.

Now he's not even hesitating before he's just letting them fly, and he's letting them fly early, so you're thinking about it throughout the game, and you could definitely see that kind of have trickle-down effects. The other part of it is if you give those three-point shooters space, they have so many of these guys that they can almost pick and shoot, who's who to go with, depending on who has the hot hand.

It didn't seem like Nicola Mierich had it going for a little bit. He kind of popped it later in the game. I think he had one big three, but he was one for six from three-point land. But then all of a sudden, some of these other guys, there are just, there's so many prolific and just excellent three-point shooters that there's only so long that that can work for you. It's been kind of an interesting theme of these playoffs is this, especially as the second round kind of went on, we saw a lot of teams really shorten their rotations a lot and play six, seven guys.

And Milwaukee indulged a little bit tonight. And it was a tight win, but they still played nine guys. You know, and they played him a fair amount of minutes. You know, Connetton even played 11 minutes tonight. So that kind of, they can go searching for the hot hand. I think that that's one nice thing that they have with this kind of depth. Whereas nurse stuck with Van Vliet, Abaca, and Powell. And Powell, I felt like, was, he only played 10 minutes.

And so essentially it was like a seven-person rotation for nurse. do you see anybody else on the Raptors bench that they could go to to help them out here or is it going to have to be the seven guys they have? Because if they are, Gassal needs to be a lot better, right? I mean, they got better minutes out of Fred Van Vleet than they had been getting. Yeah, that's true. I just don't know how much... He was one for four, but like he was scrapper than he had been in the past.

Even Norm Powell came alive, which, like, he wasn't doing. I think they really only have like six guys that I feel super confident about. This is just the OGs. This is the Ninobe spot. Yeah. It would have been really interesting to see those two teams match up if OG'd still been there. Right. And that is a potential counter that they could have looked at going down the road here

because it seems like the bucks are set on regardless playing big. They started with Janice, Lopez, and Merytich. And it seems like they're kind of set on being a little bit bigger in the front court because they have so much versatility. It doesn't really matter what type of bodies they throw out there, especially because on the other side of the floor, it seems like if anyone off the bench is going to play a lot of minutes, it's Baca. And so you're seeing some more Abaka Gasol Seacum lineups.

I think the big thing, I think you kind of hit on it. Like the Raptors at this point need Pascal Seacom. I know he's young. He's 25. He looks shook in that game seven. He disappeared in game four. Popped up a little tonight. He played well at times, but then he would just disappear for stretches.

On the other side, Chris Middleton is effectively the second best player. Well, not effectively. He is the second best player for the Bucks, just did not have a good game, one for six from three. Didn't really seem like he had a lot of effect on the game throughout, but they found other sources to get what he gives them. Yeah. And so the Bucks just have, I mean, this is what we're talking about from the start.

It just seemed like the Bucks have a very clear, concise game plan, whereas the Raptors are much more versatile team. They can, each individual player can do a lot of different things. But the Buc's system is so perfect. And it works so well in today's NBA. Yeah, they're never out of a game. And it works so well at bringing out the best of Janus. Yeah.

Yeah. And I just feel like with them, they can withstand run so they can withstand being down 12 because they're really just four shots away from you, even if they're down 12, 15. Yeah. It's been interesting to watch these playoffs because I, with anecdotally, I don't think that there's been like a ton of like crazy comebacks, but it does feel like down 17 is just pretty, it's like kind of comfortable. You know that?

And even like in that Blazers. Nuggets game. You were kind of like the game seven, you were like, man, Blazers don't feel out of this at all, not with these shooters. So it'll be interesting to see whether or not the bucks, how the bucks respond in game two. I wanted to ask you just like in a more Broadway. It was kind of funny watching the Eastern Conference Finals about LeBron. And, you know, we've been talking so much. We did a podcast last night after the lottery drawing about small markets, big markets, what the league needs, what the league wants, what the fans want, what local fans mean versus national fans.

And I was curious how you felt about watching these two relatively ascended teams from, I wouldn't say small markets, but non-traditional NBA markets in this kind of spotlight and whether or not you felt like it was an entertaining. You don't think it's as entertaining

to watch Brooke Lopez score 29 points? Oh, I'll be completely honest. I was really, really ready for something else to happen in the Eastern Conference. So this is fine with me. I mean, despite the fact that I'm disappointed the Sixers aren't there,

I was like, I'm like pretty excited about Yana stamping his, getting a national, you know, a stamp on a huge playoff series like this. So it's pretty, it's pretty must-see TV. But I was curious what you felt about it like aesthetically and also like, is it harder to kind of like feel around in the dark to say like, this is what this means since it doesn't have some of the traditional players that we're used to. I think it's interesting because we are kind of, this is the start of something. And so it's nice to turn the page to something different.

different. We are figuring out Janus. We're figuring out the Bucks. The Raptors, I don't know if this is going to carry on past this postseason, but they're a whole different entity, even from the trade deadline. Both teams added key pieces at the deadline, so we're still trying to figure them out and like where are they going to get exposed. And as

we're seeing on the West Finals, which we'll get to later, it does feel like you're finding the hole and the other team and picking it apart. So that's always interesting. At the same time, like the matchup is good too. I think that helps. It was a very good basketball

game. Super competitive. It just doesn't have the same luster without LeBron. Yeah, it's weird. It's like, I was watching, there was a point, and I think in the fourth quarter, it was kind of a defensive dagger, but Middleton, I think, picked Danny Green's pocket, and he just like almost muscled the ball away from him, like, at the top of the key, and it was, he wound up getting down the other end of the court and dumping it off to Lopez for a dunk. And I was like, I think,

like, six of the top 25 defensive play. players in the league are in this game right now. It's Janice, Middleton, you know, your mileage may vary on Danny Green, but Seacum, Leonard, Gasol can still play front court defense. There's just a bunch of guys out there who are incredibly good at stopping other people play.

It's been a while since we've had a purely defensive contest in the conference finals like this. As a known East Coast native, does this appeal to your sensibility of rough and tough and hard-nosed? It makes it very hard-nosed because, like, I think it makes it really physical basketball because all these possessions are being contested 35 feet away from the rim.

So it's exciting to watch in that regard. You know, I think Portland Golden State will probably be sexier, but, you know, I think this series is going to last a little longer. Well, I do want to talk about Brooke real quickly before we turn the page to the West. What a game. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing post-game interview. One of the more high-energy aggressive post-game interviews I've ever seen. Yeah.

I don't know. I think it just goes back to what we were talking about before, about the system that the Bucks are running. I think if you're going to pick your poison on the Bucs lineup, you want Brooke Lopez to be that guy. I think going into this postseason, I think I had said many, many times that if the Bucks are going to be exposed, it's Brooke Lopez trying to garden space.

It's having this just Goliath on the court in an era where everybody is turning small. And the Raptors with O.G. and Ninobe on the court would have the ability to perhaps do something about that. Right. But here he is. Yeah. Coach Bud's like, okay. The most important player on the floor. Yeah, 17 points in the second half, man. Someone said this and I'll have to check it.

But I think at least among the starting lineups, he might be the only lottery pick. No way. I'm going through the names now, and I think that's correct. Maybe, no, Bledsoe fell out of the lottery. Was Lowry out of the lottery? Coming out of Nova? Coming out of Cardinal Doc? I think he was in the 20s.

Oh, man. It took him... That one's for you, Bobby. It took him two teams, I believe, before he, like, really caught on with the Raptors and solidified his career. So it's just like, it's so interesting because we're in an era of super teams, and all of a sudden we have two teams that have just built just completely non-traditionally. I don't know.

As someone who has watched probably more Nets games in my life than I care to admit being in Connecticut for so long, it's pretty wild still to this day to see Brooke Lopez master of the post-up and being the biggest guy in the court and for some reason never getting rebounds out there on the perimeter and drilling threes, like, I don't know. And by that same token, it's like watching Gassal do it,

it's like watching Bambi's overweight uncle on ice. You know, it's like, what we're asking centers to do now, I think at one point during while we were watching the game, I made some sort of snide comment about like, it just feels like all of basketball now is essentially driving kick, like in the playoffs, and that these guys get like within three feet of a pretty clear layup and they just jump up in the air and twist around to hit the guy in the corner,

which is fine, but it was also just like a lot of the times the guy in the corner is not that good of shooting. And it was just watching Gasol just kind of be like, God damn, and I have to take this top of the key three again. It's just, he's going to need to hit two more of those if they want to win these games. Yeah, it is funny because, because Saul in particular, he's someone who, yeah, like, it's great to see him in a winning situation, especially because he was kind of marooned in Memphis for most of the season. He has become a specialist. Yeah.

So it's like, I wrote this in one of these group posts that we wrote pretty recently on the website, that it's almost like, it's on the one hand, it's great to see like a city dog play out his final years on a farm. But on the other hand, it does feel like he's become very narrow when his entire career, like, for a while, was one of the most bizarre, in a good way, versatile players, this giant body who could just pass so nimbly. And, like, Zach Randolph was kind of the pit bull. And he was, like, kind of the almost like the chihuahua. Yeah. It's just, it's interesting to watch some of these guys adapt. to this new area. Yeah, I mean, I also, I mean,

he's got a player option for next year, so whether or not Kauai's there or not, I mean, maybe he would be at the point in his career where he's like, I'll opt out of that and go to sign with somebody who's closer to a ring. Yeah. But I think that Gassal seems like the kind of guy,

it would be helpful if it was two years ago, Gasol or three years ago, Gasol, but specifically with him because so much of his offense is generating stuff out of the high post with passing that it would have been nice for him to get a couple more months of this group of guys.

But yeah, I mean, it's wild to look at two for seven and just be like, man, that's the game right there, I think. How are you feeling about the Raptors right now? Because we did see the Bucks. I believe they finished the game. I don't think I'm allowed to say how I'm feeling about the Raptors. We could talk about the Sixers. Yeah, yeah.

How am I feeling about how the Raptors look right now? Yeah, I mean, they hung in this game. I still feel like some of the advantages they showed early on this game could potentially bear fruit again if perhaps, Pascal Seacom hits a few more threes. Yeah, but back to your original point about this looked like Boston Game 1, didn't it also seem like Boston Game 2 within the fourth quarter or the like really the second half? Like that they made the proper adjustments and they got a couple of things to start going their way.

And even just, I don't know how much of that seven, how much that seven game series took out of the Raptors. But you did see a couple of plays down the stretch of like Muratich out rebounding, getting offensive boards, which is not something you would expect to see unless guys were maybe feeling a little flat on their feet. Yeah. The one thing I did was encouraged about with the Raptors,

instead of doing the Al Horford and walling Janus off at the nail, at the free throw line, it did seem like the Raptors have so many athletes, have so many big bodies, and they have so much length in the perimeter. It did feel like if, although Janus had a good game statistically, seven for 16th from the floor, and if you take out his three

he was seven for 13 or excuse me six for 13 it did feel like that frustrated him they were making an effort to crowd him in the paint and a guy who as we've said I just feel like he was always surrounded by three guys yeah and so I do wonder if that's something that could carry on

throughout the series I don't know I still think this is going to go six at least I don't think this is going to be a cakewalk yeah I can't imagine this is a five gamer like this feels like a split Milwaukee split Toronto and then fist fight. Yeah.

But here we are after one game and through this point the Bucks have only lost one game in the playoffs, which is Warriors-esque. Hey, I mean, like, at a certain point, it's like we're going to have

to start believing in them. Like, it's a 60-win team with the MVP. Those teams usually go to the finals and often they win, you know? Right. All right. Let's flip to the West really quickly.

I think on some of the other shows on the Ringer NBA feed, they've talked about this game already. Yeah, they talked on the long two this morning on Wednesday. Right, very inefficient podcast. But the Warriors did win 116-94 in game one. We want to talk specifically about these stories that are kind of... The Kame Mutiny.

Yeah. The Stott's Mutiny. The Stott's mutiny. So the video clip that's kind of going around on the internet today is Terry Stott's taking umbrage with one question from, I believe, Anthony Slater of the athletic. Which he then apologized for today. Oh, did he? Yeah.

That was nice of him. Yeah. He said, I wanted to, is Anthony Slater here? I wanted to apologize. Oh, what a nice guy, too. Stats. But he was, Slater basically asked. Classic Stats greasing the wheels.

Right. Not like Neil O'Shea, who was literally like just mean with the local media. It's the point where it shows up in a lot of like Jonathan Quick's stories on the athletic. Anyway, Slater asked him like, well, it seemed like the Rockets had some success trapping Curry. Yes. Stats did not do that. Traditionally, the Blazers defense, which hasn't been good this entire season, is much more conservative. Jonathan Quick pointed this out in his recap the other day.

They don't really double in the post. They don't trap. The big... Sag, right? Yeah, and they try to wall off the paint, essentially. They discourage the drive rather than kind of overplay. They're trying to force you into mid-range jumpers. Yeah.

Exactly. And Slater pointed out that the rockets trapped and had some success. Stots. very bluntly. How many points did Steph Curry score in the second half when they trapped him? Missing the point that he scored zero

in the first half, so it did have success to some degree. Absolutely, absolutely. But I think the thing that caught R.I. was in Quicks Athletic recap, it seemed like some of the players... It didn't seem like they laid it into Terry Stott's. They may not have been like,

I don't believe in what coach is doing, but Evan Turner, Moe Harkless, and I think of one or two other guys were like, that was crazy, we should have trapped him. And Evan Turner actually said, I've been like basically crying about this

for three years since I got here. Yeah. That we should be changing things up on defense and being more aggressive. And in that piece, I think this is the same quick piece, they go into detail about how like David Vanderpul, their acclaimed assistant and Stots

and some of the other guys on that team, come up with all these different, approaches for Lillard when he's getting more complicated or different defensive looks thrown at him on offense. And then they come up with all these wrinkles, but that their defense is pretty vanilla and pretty like,

we're just going to try and go straight up and let's see if they can get it. And basically what they were saying was like Denver, the first two rounds, like, we knew we were better than the Thunder. We were hanging with Denver and they pissed us off and we got after it. But with this team, you can't afford to throw away a game because you weren't aggressive. Right. The direct Turner quote is,

it's hard enough to get them to switch the pick and roll defense. Speaking about the coaching staff. That's something I've been questioning for three years. E.T. Just like letting it fly. I know. But look, this is a team that hasn't gotten very far

in the playoffs throughout the Stott's administration, you know, for the most part. They're in rarefied air. These guys all recognize the opportunity they have with Durant out. And Curry and Thompson, you know, being mildly banged up, if not explicitly banged up. And I think that they think that they can hang with this team.

And there was a point last night, I think they had it down to six. But they were pretty close in the second half. And the Warriors just blew them out of the water. Now, throwing a double at Steph, I don't know if that changes anything. But this is the most vulnerable Golden State's going to be in Portland's eyes, right? Right, yeah. Not having Kevin Durant is just, that's the golden opportunity for any team.

I will say I think two things are happening here I think the Blazers are coming head on into a collision with like their future. It does seem like the guys that they're throwing out there the Ennis Cantors some of the Alpharuka Minu's a guy who's been

there throughout since Lamarcus Alder's left. He's been a key piece. He played well as kind of like a de facto five against the pelicans in that series that they got blown out in but all of a sudden he's been awful. Yeah, you can't play him. Can't play Minu. You can't play Minu. can't play canter, and all of a sudden in the second half, they turned to Zach Collins, who I think he got roughed up a bunch, especially in the first half. He was not particularly good. So it's interesting to see so many people rally behind Collins, but he did play better in the second half, and he's the type of player that they need because the Warriors, regardless of not having Kevin Durant, they're still going to put a bunch of versatile, like, similar body type players in the floor, and they're going to force out all those guys that, like, don't fit that mold. That's like, that's, that's, that's,

just always going to happen. And Collins is the only one that is anywhere close to that. It's funny because in a lot of ways they're having similar issues that they had against Denver. Like Denver pretty much didn't guard Amenean Harkless

on the perimeter because they just aren't good enough three point shooters and they overloaded it on Dame to stop those drives. That's happening again except the Warriors are just much better at it.

It's just you can go back and forth with Denver because Denver is also going to have flaws on the other side. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's... And also,

Jamal Murray might go three for 17 one night. And Clay Thompson, I mean, he's had a tough playoffs, but you can't rely on Clay or Steph to do that. And I can see the Blazers players' frustrations because there are probably more of those holes there. On the other hand,

the Blazers roster is so thin, especially at certain areas. They have gaping holes, too. To the point where the Warriors bench, which should, like, you should be able to expose, those guys played freely to the point where Damian Jones, a guy who hasn't been in games for a while because he's hurt,

got two minutes at the end there. Dude, Quink Cook and Jordan Bell were out there. Right. And Fonzo McKinney, these guys were there. And so it's just like a whole different style of basketball. Yeah. Especially in contrast to what happened in the Warriors Rocket Series, where they were essentially playing like seven guys each side.

And it was, well, if one guy couldn't like shoot, that guy would just like have. everything run at him the entire time. Whereas here it just feels like the Warriors are just, this is more of a regular season type of game where they could just do whatever the fuck they want because of the Warriors and staff can pop off for 30 points. Clay could do the same thing.

Yeah, I mean, I just thought it was interesting after one game, after the playoffs that they've had, which is in some ways like Portland's provided the most memorable moments of the playoffs so far with the quadruple of a time game, the game winner against the series ender against Thunder and the quadruple of a time game against Denver. to see them kind of flip a little bit after you should probably lose the first game

of a Western Conference Finals against Golden State in Oakland after a seven-game series. Like, don't worry about it. Right. Like, try and steal one in Oakland if you guys are so, if you guys believe in each other so much. And maybe I just think that they hear Durant's footsteps. That's what must have freaked them out. Yeah. So we'll see if they can make any adjustments.

I think right now the adjustments are probably their only hope. I think for them they have to still think that they could do certain things in order to perhaps counter what the Warriors are doing. I think they will find out if not in four more games, then perhaps even three more games, that those don't exist. Yeah. So I think that one's probably a wrap. I think they take one. Take one. I hope so.

Yeah. Because otherwise we'll have a lot of free time for the NBA finals. A lot of Brooke Lopez talk. All right. Let's jump back to yesterday again with the lottery. We did an instant reaction podcast. And so it was kind of really interesting because Justin obviously spent a lot of time in New Orleans, covered the Pelicans. So glad to have him here in Los Angeles.

Thanks. But you were like sincerely excited. You know what I mean? I think obviously you have like a lot of like personal like affection for the city still. Sure. Yeah. And you were really excited. And then since the lottery last night to now,

it's pretty much been like, taped to death, where now we're at a point where even Mark Stein and others, like, really respectable journalists, are teasing out the idea that Zion Williamson might be so disappointed. This isn't Mark's words, we're just kind of like summing it up here,

is so disappointed with his potential destination, New Orleans, that he might consider going, back to Duke or sitting out a year or withdrawing his name for the draft. I don't think that is remotely possible. But I think it is worth having the conversation about whether or not

I don't know what is the conversation to have here. Do you think that there's any fire to this smoke? I think the conversation is interesting considering what we were talking about so often during the regular season. Yes. Which is star players trying to exert their power

and to force their way into certain situations, kind of breaking free of the power structure that has been in play for years and years and years. I think it's particularly interesting considering that in a lot of ways, you can say that what people are suggesting Zion might possibly consider down the road was like the bad influence was Anthony Davis.

So you could see the one-to-one there. And there are a lot of ripple effects from there that we'll get to. But I think it's interesting because you can kind of on your cork board, on your Kerry Matheson board, you can kind of put the lines together in particular because Zion doesn't have an agent. Sure. Which is a little weird at this point. He's the number one player in the draft.

He probably, like most guys have settled on this way before, probably they even left college. What's the matter with Zion Williamson and why doesn't he have an agent? What are you scared of, Zion? I don't know. You got into that take. Yeah, I like it. I just want someone who really competes. Yeah.

Especially in the agent game. If you're not willing to make a decision about your agent, how can I trust you during a game seven in playoffs? Kobe had an agent. Yeah. Jordan had an agent. You sure did. So all that is to say that he is potentially eligible to still go back to

this thing. The reason why we were having this conversation is because new York in L.A. had a shot at him. Yeah. If this was Phoenix, if the final four or whatever were Phoenix, Memphis, New Orleans,

and Charlotte or something, we would not be having this conversation. I guess it is a little weird that we haven't heard from him since. Yeah. He gave his interview after the thing, after the lottery, and he was not like effusively psyched

about going number one to New Orleans. Now, he may have just be thinking to him self, technically I'm not supposed to be like I'm obviously going to be drafted number one. I'm trying to be humble. He just said, I'm nervous. And then it was like, well, now that you know, it's going to be New Orleans, are you still nervous? And he was like, a lot of chin scratching.

And just he hasn't come out and been like, I'm going to be psyched to play wherever I get picked. John Morant pretty much did do that. You know what I mean? And he wasn't even like that effusive about it. He was just like, I'm just, you know, wherever I get picked, I'm going to be excited to play. Right. You know?

So that's the other thing I play here. It seems like in the absence of information, all we have is this one Mark Spears tweet, which suggests that perhaps Zion wouldn't be thrilled about going to do. Yes. It was that he was whisked away, that he was hoping for New York or Atlanta. And so I do wonder if a lot of this is just our confirmation of our own perceptions of New Orleans. We're also insane. And we just think about this stuff too much and we talk about it too much and we tweet about it too much and we blog about it too much.

and we have to fill the empty void in our souls with speculation. Bobby Slack me just earlier and he said it's been 27 hours. I told you no fact checking on this podcast. Which in blog time is an eternity. Yeah, but like, look, it speaks to the enormity of this guy's persona hitting the league that people are looking at this like a big bang and that this is something that, you know, is going to change. the course of the NBA

and also especially the fortunes of whatever franchise is lucky enough to draft him. And it weirdly got into a debate about whether or not New Orleans deserves him. And the thing that I thought was really interesting, you know, that we were talking about during the Raptors game, not even interesting.

It was like obvious. It was what your point was like, look, if this doesn't happen, you fold the leak. Or like, do it or like break it up into the haves and have-nots then because if he just sides to sit out or if he says, I'm not going to report to New Orleans, or if he goes back to Duke, or if he goes to Italy, then there's no reason for any of these teams who try to get

better through the draft to compete. Right. Yeah. On the one hand, it's a New Orleans issue. If New Orleans, if he says specifically, I do not want to go there. And let's be honest, New Orleans hasn't done a lot in the past couple of years under Del Demps to pretend like its reputation has been tarnished. But wouldn't you want to play for the Pelicans 10 times out of 10 over Phoenix right now? Maybe not. I mean, I think players like Phoenix. I think I just don't think New Orleans is a destination

for a lot of these guys. And I think for Zion, perhaps, that's... He's never been there. She found... Yeah, he literally said that in that one interview I've never been there, which I think is probably big. But yeah, I do think even though they have David Griffin in there, it does seem like they're willing to... The ownership is willing to invest a little bit more.

At least that's what they're saying. Maybe they have turned the page, but and the perception at large is that New Orleans is still just not all that attractive to go there. And if Zion were to pull an Eli Manning and John Elway, I wonder if that franchise could ever recover. I just don't think that the league would allow it. I mean, I think that there's,

I know that technically, like, we can get into whether or not he's signed an agent yet, but it would be such a disaster for the league and for their process of how they distribute talent out of college or amateur basketball players. I mean, I think that's all bullshit too, by the way. Like, I think all these guys basically should be able to, like, get the most amount of money for their services as they possibly can.

But if we're going to play by the rules, you've got to stick to the rules. So just because Zion, and the idea that Zion would somehow be able to force his way to the Knicks or Lakers or the Hawks, it's just not going to happen. Adam Silver works for the owners. Right. One of those owners owns New Orleans. This isn't going to happen. And if you guys think that, like, oh, well, the New Orleans, Pelicans are just choked.

Teams like San Antonio, teams like Memphis, teams like even Charlotte are like, we could be next. We could be the next team that the guy's like, I don't want to play for these guys. Yeah. It's interesting that a lot of the comps that we've come up with are from other sports. Specifically football. There are some in baseball that Michael Baumann wrote about for the ringer today. The difference is in basketball, they're five to ten guys that dictate the fate of the entire league. And this is why tanking is such a hot topic is because all of these teams,

realize that, and they're all doing whatever they can in order to get those few guys. The only real path for a small market to do so is through the draft. And now there are certain small markets that have had some success getting guys to come down there. I mean, Paul George stayed in Oklahoma City. Back in the day, Greg Monroe went to the bucks. It might sound ludicrous now, but he was like a coveted free agent. The Marcus Aldridge, went to the spurs. These are all more B-level. guys, but still, there are recourses there, and I will say that it helps a lot to have a well-run franchise.

Sure, absolutely. For a lot of them, in order to keep them, you have to get them through the draft, and you have to have them under control for not only one contract, but the team control for the second contract. Absolutely. And so if that is no longer in place, you have all of Middle America being like, what the fuck, this is entirely broken. Yeah, and what's the point of buying season tickets? What's the point of paying any kind of like extra fee on my cable bill for my sports package

so that I get my regional sports network or something? I mean, like, there's a, you can't have that happen. And I think that that's probably something that the league has sat back a little bit, I think allowed San Antonio to play the Kauai situation the way they felt they needed to play it. So whether you're on team he was hurt or team he thought he was hurt, but decided what he really wanted to do is not play until he got his way and got out of there, but doesn't matter.

They let San Antonio handle it. You know, the Davis situation in the second half of last season pretty much Costel Demp's job, but was like kind of a joke, you know, the way, everything from we're going to play him 10 minutes a night to the That's All Folks T-shirt

at the end of it to whatever is going on now and Griffin's been brought in to essentially write the ship. But I find just even the conversation about this while fever dreamy to be hypothetically fascinating because of the confrontation it causes between the league, the teams, and the players. Yeah.

And as hypothetical as this conversation is, I think two things to point out are with the Anthony Davis situation in particular, Adam Silver stepped in. He said you guys have to play them. Yeah. So there is precedent for the league getting involved in certain ways

that normally, like, you wouldn't. I don't know how he would. And they obviously seem to have, I mean, like, the league has a, the league very recently was owning, owned New Orleans. So they have like a vested interest in New Orleans. They've propped that franchise up before. Right. And in previous CBA negotiations, after the big three formed in Miami,

that they put stipulations, all these super masks sort of things in place, specifically so small markets would have opportunities to keep their guys. these fifth years on the contract, the more money. Now, they have not worked one bit. But it is to say that guys like Dan Gilbert get into those rooms, and they are advocating for better, like, conditions for some of these small markets. So it's funny. I mean, I think there's just a lot of momentum heading into whenever the next CBA negotiation is

for things to change in drastic ways. Yeah. I mean, especially if you start seeing the, if the age limit drops, so Zion doesn't have to go to school in the... By the way, by the way, I'm so into in February or January or whatever that happened with the shoe

everybody's like cryogenically freeze this guy until draft night I never want to see him step foot and Cameron indoor ever again the sham sport and now because New Orleans won the fucking lottery everybody's just like go back to Duke right if he was real a real one

you'd go back to Duke he loved Duke by the way as do I I love college basketball Pick a fucking side. Who cares? Go play in New Orleans for four years. Well, let's, let me ask you this.

New Orleans, second of all, amazing city. It's a great city, but not a great basketball city. Okay. And change that. And as I can attest... Change that. There were crickets in Cleveland before LeBron got there. Change it.

Yeah, but LeBron is such a... What was Cavs basketball? Craig Elo? Come on. I mean, I know that he was from Cleveland, but like, this is exactly what we were talking about last night where it was like, you don't have to be from New Orleans to care about the Pelicans.

Listen, man, have you ever seen Mark Price shoot a free throw? That's legendary. The elbow is so tight. It's so tight. It was an L shape.

I'm saying people are going to buy a lead pass to watch every Pelicans game. Next year. Like, change New Orleans basketball then. Maybe. Yeah. And if you're Gail Benson

and you're serious about like you want to fill the place, like sell a bunch of $5 tickets. Make that place into a cauldron. I think it's so interesting that we... Give away tickets for free on Bourbon Street. Yeah.

Probably not. That's a good idea. I think it can work. I just... Maybe I just have PTSD from my own experience of going down there and seeing Anthony Davis

just not catch on in large part. Yeah. Because he wasn't a celebrity. Like, the team did not do well. Like, it's funny how... I don't know if it's... We're reverting back to,

like, the old way of doing things that, like, the big media markets actually dictate how much we care about these people because there's so much coverage in them. or if there are ways for guys to thrive in Oklahoma City, some of these other markets. On the one hand,

I think that latter point is true. On the other hand, the Lakers and some of these other big markets are always on national TV, even though their teams are bad. The Lakers were always on national team even before they got LeBron. Yeah.

So there are these things in place here where the big markets do matter more, and it does feel like Zion is diminished in a lot of ways because he is going to New Orleans. I think that's what's driving this. Yeah, okay. I mean, I think, yeah.

I just think that the idea that Zion going to New Orleans is bad for the league is only bad for the league in the face of the possibility of him going to Los Angeles or New York. If it had been a choice between New Orleans, Memphis, and Phoenix,

I just don't feel like it matters that much. So it's just the taste that he could have been at the garden or the taste that he could have been on the Lakers that we're losing it about. And like, the take fact factory, I think we're at regular hours right now. Had the Lakers landed Zion, the double shifts, the time and a half we would be paying the takers would have been crazy if the Lakers had somehow

won the lottery. I love chaos. I wanted that. This is what we do. We're sitting here and we're talking about all the masinations. I think it's chaotic to send him to New Orleans. I think that's awesome. I think that's crazy. Send the best player to hit the pros since. Anthony Davis to the team that that is basically on one leg. I don't know. I'm into it. Let's see it. It doesn't make a difference to me if he plays in Memphis, Atlanta or New Orleans.

Like, what are we asking Zion to be here? He's not going to give like a TED talk. Like, he's not running for president. He's a basketball player. I'm like, I'm engaged with him. I'm engaged with him. I'm engaged with the honest. I'm engaged with, I'm not engaged with Colin Sexton.

It's not a big deal. Like, if Colin Sexton gets really good in the next five years, I'll be engaged with him. But I think that like the, the, what he can possibly do for a franchise. If he is what he's, if everybody says he is, it shouldn't be that big of a deal from playing in New Orleans. Drew Brees plays in New Orleans.

Pepsi commercials. Well, football's different. I guess so. Do you drink Pepsi or Coke? I don't drink soda. Wow. Yeah, I drink carbonated water. I was never a soda kid.

You? I used to love root beer. Classic. Classic take from you. Yeah, can't do it anymore. All right. Do you want to talk about Brett Brown real quick? You've avoided talking about the Sixers since.

You want to talk, well, so, the whole second half of this podcast has been about chaos. You love chaos. Yeah, chaos is a latter. You know about that show? I think. With Thrones? That's, yeah. Is that what that is?

I think it would be, I think it would be ridiculously stupid for them to have fired Brett Brown. I think that saying Brett Brown somehow failed to live up to expectations because Kauai Leonard hit the craziest game winner I've ever seen. And I've, you know, Christian Leitner included. it would be wild. And I think it doesn't matter that all those guys came out, all the players in the six just came out afterwards and were like, I love him.

I can't say enough about him. You should be the coach here for a long time. It doesn't matter that they've essentially tied their franchises featured in Embed and Embedleves Brett. I think that we're incredibly hard on coaches for the amount that we understand what they do. And I think that sometimes we just decide to, like lay into certain coaches

like Brett and not guys like Brad or got just got rocked by Milwaukee in the first round second round second round second round whatever fuck fuck Boston

no I mean what is the difference between what Brett Brown just did and what Brad Stevens just did why are we like Brett Brown you're on life support because you won 50 games twice and in two seasons consecutive seasons you got your team within four bounces of going to overtime in game seven of the semifinals.

But Brad Stevens, who had a team fucking quit on him twice, like in the middle of the season, you're golden. You're still like, you're Beto. You're great. Beto? Whatever. Well, I would say that Brad Stevens brought the Celtics to one game of the NBA finals last year.

I think that's the big difference. He beat Brett Brown. He was never going to beat LeBron. He came really close without Kyrie Irving. That's pretty good. Now, I do think he is taking some heap, and he himself stepped out there and said, like, yeah, I didn't do a good job this year. I don't mean to make this, like, anti-Boston propaganda, although Bill's been incredibly hard on Philadelphia over the last couple of days, and I think he's still mad about the Super Bowl. I was really more just saying that I find it weird that what does Brett Brown have to do with a team that he's basically had together for 25 games?

I don't know. And I also just don't understand, like, show me the coach who's better than Brett Brown. who's just sitting there waiting. And I actually did think for a minute there, oh, this is why Ty Loo didn't take the Sixers job or didn't take the Lakers job. It's because the Sixers are about to offer him a five-year deal. And that they think that Ty Liu, who's won a finals

and is a player's coach and is going to be an XO God over there with the whiteboard, is going to come in and take this team to the next level. Yeah. You could have made that argument, but that's the kind of argument you need to make. You can't come to me and be like Vanderpull or some other guy off the Spurs bench

or whatever retread you're thinking of. It can't be that because, like, Brett's actually been good. Yeah. I can't distinguish between Brett Brown and what Ty Lou does. Like, perhaps Brown or Lou is just brilliant in a certain way. And that certain way will be the specific difference that this Sixers team needs to break through. Sure.

On the other hand, I have always looked at the roster and just seen just all these flaws throughout. and I'm most worried about Elton Brand, a first-time GM, mortgaging the entire future, and somehow in the process, not really, no pun in the same. No, no, I'm, I'm, this is where you're actually getting into my pain.

Okay. Yeah, I just, if you're saying this is the year that we're putting all the eggs in the basket, why not get like one bench guy? I'm not blaming the car because the salesman was bad, though. I like you're into these carmen force.

I am. But I'm not mad at, I'm not mad at what the Sixers are because Elton and Brett and Josh Harris tried to jack people up with like, it's this year, we're going in. And you know what?

They were right to. Why not? Well, because it didn't work. And it's like, I'm not even saying they caught a bad beat. Like the team itself was going to stall out eventually. They were not going to get to the finals. I'm sorry.

Like, I don't think that was even in the realm of possibility. So that's an interesting take. I think that I, I hear you, but you're wrong. I mean, this was not like a, I felt like this was, like let's say Embedd is healthy for that entire Toronto series. You think they still lose to them?

Let's see Embed does not catch whatever he caught during the course of that series, and he plays all those games. Do you don't think they maybe win that Sunday, get that game four in Philly? I think it's possible. My counter would be that Embed has had enough of an injury or whatever history that something would have come up about.

Sure. I agree with you that there's some roster complications. It's going to be a different team next year. It would be Butler or Harris, and I don't think JJ comes back. And I think if Harris leaves, that shamit trade is a catastrophe to me. Because I'm not like Landry Shamet is irreplaceable, but you had the Landry Shamet. You don't have to go look for him now. Yeah. We're having conversations now where it's like, should they trade for Shamit back?

Like one of my pet projects Who is having conversations? Well, I was, me and Danny Chow were talking today. And I guess at some point I incepted this take into my brain as if it were my own. And Danny had to remind me that apparently this is originally a James Herbert take of CBS Sports. Danny loves just letting you know that your take is in your own. Right. Yeah.

Like I'll always be like, have you ever noticed the rockets? All right, man. And bear with me here. Right. it's all threes and layups. Right. And he's just like, Charg said that in 2017.

Right. Hardwood proxism wrote that in 2014. No, but... This pie gets so good at like $8.50. It's funny. The ends are really where we thrive. No.

We were talking about whether or not you should trade Ben Simmons for SGA and Shammit. Just to be explicitly clear for the listeners, I was not having that conversation. Danny and Justin were. Okay, but now we are having that conversation.

I think it actually works for both parties. No. It's to the point where I'm actually a Ben Simmons optimist. Yes. I will be on that island. I just think he's... You're going to have to pay taxes to me because it is my island. Okay.

I pay for hotels and motels. What is it? Houses in Monopoly? Houses in hotels? Yeah, you buy all sorts of stuff on it. You build a hotel. Yeah, you build hotels. Okay.

Glad we cleared that up. I'm at the point where I think he's completely underrated. I think he put him in the right situation. I just think that he is this transformative next LeBron light type. But I think in the playoffs, he needs, you need to fill him out with the right guys. You need to surround him with guys. He has to have some kind of honesty-making jumper.

Something. Right. I don't care if it's 32%. I don't care if it looks like he's in seventh grade when he shoots it. It's just got to happen. It's got, it actually is worse for him to not shoot and miss. It's worse for him to not shoot than it is for him to shoot and miss. Right.

Which with SGA clearly does not have the ceiling of Ben Simmons as this just wrecking ball and transition, but he is a guy who I think won't have as many holes. I think he will develop a good drum shot. I think he's already a pretty heady point guard. I think he's a really good defender. Here's how they can find out whether or not they should do that trade. They call Jerry West, and if he wants to, to do the trade, you say never mind.

Do you think Jerry West would say never mind? No, I think Jerry West was like put in Shamit and Elton Brown was like, sure, whatever. And now it's like, ah, Christ. Also, do Jerry West is like, absolutely I'll take Ben Simmons. Do we know if Jerry West is even awake at the hours of these are being dead? Like, I like the idea that

Jerry West was like, reared his head from his like castle in Bel Air and was like, Bring me Shammit! And then went back to sleep. And then Winger or Doc or Lawrence, like, mainly like, okay, we got to go to Shannon. Yeah. I just remember, like, when I first got back out to L.A., the story I heard that he didn't

know who Dario Sarge was. Honestly, does it seem like it's really, it hasn't really affected him. It has not. As a guy with a Dario Sarge T-shirt, I can just say, it seems like Jerry West is doing fine without him. That's vintage now. The kids love that. Oh, God.

All right. Anything else, Chris? No, that's it. I don't want to talk about John B-Line's office. Do you? Do you know if it's a 13-1 flat? No, I don't think we're qualified, honestly. I can't wait to see him scheme up some plays in Cleveland.

Maybe Zion can go back to Michigan. It leaves the NBA and transfers to Michigan. He takes that year off. Yeah. He actually waits until his junior year. Yeah, and then he's coach player at Michigan. Right. It's all of a tribute to John Beeline.

All right. Okay. That's the ringer NBA show for Chris. For Bobby. I'm Justin. We will see you next week. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.