The Ringer NBA Show - The Cavs’ Coaching Change and Three Post-All-Star Story Lines | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 19, 2020

With a new head coach and a less-than-impressive season, what does the future look like for the Cleveland Cavaliers (3:30)? Plus, major story lines for the rest of the regular season: the impact of buyouts for the league (16:30), what Kyrie Irving’s injury means for the Nets (28:55), and Giannis’s MVP reputation (39:28). Host: Justin Verrier Guest: Rob Mahoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The Clippers didn't give enough for Marcus Morris. Basketball is very good. Hello, welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me on the line today. Our own interim head coach, it's Rob Mahoney. What's up, buddy?

You know, I'm feeling a little shaky in this interim job these days. I'm going to need you to pick me up for the rest of the season, I think. Yeah, you're becoming our own J.B. Bicker staff here, where you're just spotting left and right. You're just picking up the slack and finishing out the season for us. You know, it's not a bad job to have, but ultimately I think J.B. could probably aim a little higher. We'll see how things end up for him this time. Right. There's only 30 of them. I imagine that's why people take the Cavs job to begin with. Yeah. We are obviously talking about John B-line, who is out with the Cleveland Cavaliers today. We're going to talk about a bunch of stuff today,

looking forward into the rest of the stretch run of the NBA season. We're almost done about two months left to go here. We're going to talk about some of the most intriguing storylines of the stretch run that don't involve the Sixers because we do enough of that on this podcast. But first, I do want to start with Beeline because that's the news of the day. He is officially out in Cleveland after what seemed like, what, a day or two of a slow death to his, you know, just really notable career in Cleveland as the Cavs have coach, but definitely a short one.

He will receive a portion of his remaining contract, which is still, I believe, three plus years guaranteed in a fifth year as an option. So he basically gave up, let's say, about $12 million just to just not be in this situation anymore. As Rob and I mentioned, J.B. Bickerstaff, who has already taken over as interim head coach for the Rockets and the Grizzlies is now taking over for the Cleveland Cavaliers.

I think the most interesting part of this is that apparently Bickerstaff, this is according to Adrian Wojianowski of ESPN, was hired to begin with as an eventual succession plan for B-Line, which means that he was something of a coach-in-waiting. I don't know if they ever told us that, but clearly he is taking over sooner than expected. What a mess, I guess is my first thought.

Rob, what strikes you about the situation? Well, I mean, as far as the coach-in-waiting bit, it was kind of a weird choice to begin with when you have, you know, you're really at the first stage of your development as a team. You bring in Colin Sexton, you bring in Darius Garland, you're starting to put together these pieces. You're eventually going to probably move Kevin Love and some of these veterans and try to get pieces back. And you hire a first-time NBA head coach, which is fine, but a 67-year-old head coach, a guy who isn't really going to be with you for the long haul on a conceivable timeline. And so I have to wonder what did B-Line and the Cavs think the best-case scenario was here.

They weren't going to be good this season. This is always going to be kind of a trying campaign. I don't think we saw the full extent of him walking away from the team and as you mentioned millions of dollars in the middle of the year. But I really don't see what the optimal outcome was here. Yeah, I look at it from two perspectives. They failed in two separate ways, it seems like. One is just about B-Line specifically.

And I don't know much about him, but he was billed in college as kind of a great tactician, right? He was able to draw enough there in Michigan in order to bring those guys to, I believe, two final fours before he ended up taking the Cleveland job. But he basically said that he was kind of tired with the, just the recruiting game. You wanted to get away from that. It just didn't seem like he was the appropriate guy to make the leap from college. It just didn't seem like he figured out probably the key difference between college

and the pros, which is just like you have to reach your players. There are more adults that you can't really be a drill sergeant with. And specifically, you have to reach your stars, which he did not do. And while Kevin Love, whether or not he's a star these days is kind of up for grabs, he clearly did not reach Love, who at some point was just firing passes at opponents, or excuse me, at teammates,

when they wouldn't pass him the ball, and then Tristan Thompson was on his side, and then he wasn't on his side. And so B-Line specifically didn't seem like a good hire. And then the other side of this is you have to look at the Cavs organization and why at this point in their trajectory, they're reaching for a guy who was, unproven as a head coach, unproven as a guy who could rebuild a team, which is what they're

faced with going forward. And a guy who's just like, apparently if you were in an interview with him, you didn't really suss out that he just wouldn't get along with like 20-year-old kids. I don't know. It's just, it seems like a mess. For you, is it more of a B-line problem or is it more of a Caves problem? I mean, they're really hard to extricate, honestly, because the Caves problems run so deep. I mean, this is, they've had a really weird track record with head coaches to begin with over the last couple years between Larry Drew and Ty Lou. We'll see how J.B. does in his time there

and whether they ultimately make him the long-term head coach or not. And, I mean, there really is just kind of an organizational situation there beyond whatever is going on in the coaching seat currently and then whatever is going on with B-Line specifically. And so with him, I mean, college coaches and especially college coaches of a particular kind of demeanor have a hard time because they're almost a mixture of, like, tyrannical and patronizing at the same time because they're used to dealing with

18 and 19 year olds coming in, which I get if you're dealing with 18 and 19 year olds on a regular basis why you might come off that way. But like, you know, according to reports, like there's a report in the athletic today that he was kind of a dictator, a quote-unquote dictator in terms of his demeanor there. And then at the same time, he's the guy who's doing this kind of like cutesy like polar bear language. And there's the whole, you know, the thug and slug a gaff, which we can talk about if you want. But it's just, this combination of personality traits and approaches that is not going to go over well with millionaire athletes who, you know, the power dynamic in the NBA is just different.

I feel like the slug mishap is one of my favorite stories. Perhaps in NBA history, it reads like an onion headline to the point where the headline on the ESPN news story, I remember, it just read farcical, like that he would screw up thugs. Like both things, saying both things about players are bad, but one is just like absurd. Like, who even talks like that? Who calls people slugs? I just, I don't understand it. And it was definitely a clear sign of things to come.

But, you know, I would say this. Clearly, Beeline wasn't fit for the job. But it does seem to be a tough job to begin with. Not only because the Cavs organization seems to be in disarray, but there is this clear divide between their priorities on the roster itself, where. you have Kevin Love, a guy who's still signed to something close to a max contract for a couple more years. Tristan Thompson and guys who were remnants of the LeBron era are still on the team because they paid them so much in order to really push forward all in in order to get LeBron to those finals. And then you have pretty much the new class of guys coming in when you have Garland, you have Sexton.

It's just like there was such a divide between them and it seemed like they prioritize the young guys, which makes sense. clearly that was going to be their future and it seemed like when they signed Kevin Love to that extension, they were ready to trade him almost immediately. But it's just like how do you almost coach two teams? You're asking a guy who hasn't coached one NBA team to coach two NBA teams, essentially.

And rebuilding in general is just very hard on a coach. You know, especially if you're coming from, you know, a really established and a really decorated college career where you're used to winning a lot, you're used to having a certain kind of authority, you come into this situation where you're going to lose for when you're playing a lot of games, which means you're going to lose a lot of games,

more so than a college schedule. So when you start from that standpoint, and I think there's a reason why coaches who are kind of the first in at the rebuild are very rarely the coaches who finish it. You know, there are some exceptions to that rule. There are obviously some guys who have been in that role over the entire term, but usually, you know, maybe you can get the team into the playoffs. You bump up against the first or second round,

and ultimately the team replaces you as somebody else. It's just it's hard to keep a team's attention for long enough. It's hard to weather the difficult years and still have kind of the cachet you need and the authority you need in the locker room. It's a very difficult job. And so, you know, that's kind of the baseline. And then you lump the thug of it all, the, you know, the Kevin Love of it all, the Cavs, you know, organizational dysfunction of it all on top of that. This function may be strong. The organizational issues of it all on top of that.

And I really don't see, again, like what the best case scenario. was in this situation just because the match seemed weird from the start and everything about this situation just seems to have gone to rise so quickly. But I'm with you that the slug bit has to go down as a bit of immortal NBA lore. I just won't accept anything otherwise. I'm surprised there isn't a blog name already for it. Well, there's no blogs anymore, as we discussed previously. So that might be the problem. True. RIP blogs, RIP slug life. So the other person I think who is clearly at fault here, I guess it would be two people, which is the owner Dan Gilbert. and his hand-chosen GM, Kobe Altman.

The Cavs have had a run, as you've mentioned, of not keeping head coaches, but also of kind of not resigning their top executives. David Christian is the most recent example after he kind of constructed a championship-winning team around LeBron and the Cavs. It wasn't signed to an extension and ultimately made his way out. He's now with the Pelicans. But Altman, who was something of his lieutenant during that time here, took over. and since then he really hasn't made much of a positive impact for this team. He made, I believe, the big trade during that first trade deadline where he was installed as GM

in order to get Jordan Clarkson. He sends out Isaiah Thomas, who else was that, Larry Nance Jr. So that move was fine to kind of stem what happened to be like a very tough part of the Cavs regular season, but it didn't work out. And since then, it doesn't seem like anything else is really good. gone well. Both draft picks that they've picked high leaves, Sexton and Garland, as we mentioned, just aren't doing too well here. They are currently 67th. Sexton is, and Garland is 81st, among point guards in RPM, which is ESPN's real plus minus. Not just among all players. This is

just among their position, which, by the way, they technically play the same position. So that's a little weird that you spent all this draft capital on the same sort of guy here, I guess. And then, as we mentioned before, their books are just totally jammed up even for the next couple of years. So outside of their rookie salary, so Garland Sexton make a lot because of the way the CBA works.

Love is making 31 million next season. Drummond, if he stays, is making 28.8 million. Larry Nance still making 11.7 million, which I don't know how that's possible, considering I don't remember the last time I've seen Larry Nance play. And Chetty Osman is making 8.8.

And Osmond's like, a fun player who like came up through the system and loved LeBron and all that, but just I don't know what he really is in the NBA if he's not on a very good team and if he's not making like a minimum contract. And so I'm looking at the big picture here. Given those different issues that are at hand here, is there any bigger mess in the league right now than Cleveland? I mean, I think if you look at it in terms of which are the franchises who are almost going have to dig their way out a little bit just to get things really rolling or get things really started in earnest in terms of building up towards, you know, whether it's an eventual

playoff appearance, whether it's an eventual run, whatever it is, the calves are right there at the top of the list. And some of that is what you've described, the fact that, you know, they have some of these contracts on the books that they still need to move, that they still need to manage. And we've seen by keeping those players, I mean, there's always a cost benefit in terms of a guy like Kevin Love, do we trade him immediately and just take what we can get? Do we keep him on the roster and kind of string this out and try to manage the egos and the personalities and the basketball situation as best we can. And we've seen some very different approaches with that.

You know, look at Memphis and Andrea Godala, for example, and what they were willing to do and to put up with just for the sake of trying to get what ultimately they thought they should. I think with the Cavs, you know, you could certainly argue they should have traded love sooner. I don't have a sense that the market on him has been particularly hot and particularly interesting in terms of what they would want in return. I think there is a good argument that the offseason would be better suited for that, just given the size of his contract.

the number of teams who could potentially absorb it, it's just tough when you look around and you see not only the fact that you have some pieces that don't quite make sense or don't quite fit or aren't further as far along as you would like, but even just starting with the two guards, the idea that how are these guys going to play together or if they're not, how are we going to maximize them

in a way that kind of showcases their talent where we could move them for something else? Because at this point, as you mentioned, both have pretty much underwhelmed. I think Garland has had his moments. Sexton has been kind of tough to imagine what his fit in a high-level NBA team is going to be. And then you're bringing it Andre Drummond to maybe the poster child of this guy seems okay, but I don't know what is fit in a high-level NBA team is going to be.

So all of this colliding is really kind of a work of art. I mean, it's not the best start for Altman, as you mentioned, dating back to the last LeBron season until now. It really is kind of a mess out there. Yeah, I think that's my biggest issue here. I just don't know the future, and I don't know. how they get to a future because it reminds me, and perhaps this is because in part because they just got drummond, it reminds me of the Pistons where they make all these efforts

in order to reboot to really try to build something from the ground up. And yet they just aren't making the right draft picks. And now they're at the point where they're already kind of two years or so down the road since LeBron left. And I just don't know the pathway to get there because they have all these contracts. I think you make a good point that they maintain the asset with Kevin Love, but perhaps they misread the market or at the very least they signed them to such a big deal

that now they can't even reap the benefits of maintaining the asset. And I just don't know which of these guys, Saxon or Garland, is going to be a starter for your next team that you're hoping to compete for the playoffs. And I don't totally mind doubling up on the position if you think that Garland is such a can't miss prospect, but clearly that hasn't been the case here. So now they're just, they're doubled up.

and I'm not sure where the future lies. I am curious, though, because Tristan Thompson is someone that seemed like based on reports, they weren't going to buy out. So I do wonder if now they're kind of letting go of the leash, if that's a guy who might end up in the market. Which brings us to our next point. We're going to get into some of the more intriguing storylines going forward here in the stretch run. And the first one is the buyout market.

So it's been pretty active since the trade deadline ended, a few weeks ago. You see a few guys kind of getting bought out here. Reggie Jackson yesterday to the Clippers. Marvin Williams to the Bucks, Michael Kidd, Gilchrist to the Mavs, Damari Carroll and Jeff Green to the Rockets. This is always a point of interest

at this time in the league. Seems like perhaps we just need our transaction fix. And so whenever someone moves teams, it just sparks the dopamine and everyone is just like, you know, sending the exclamation emojis or whatever. I think the big question, though, something that Rob and I have talked about in the past offline,

is whether or not these matter? I don't know if you're looking at the board here and seeing any moves. What do you think? Do any of these moves really strike you as something that can make a difference in the big picture in the league? Well, I think you need to kind of adjust expectations when we talk about these things. Because, you know, I do think that there is that kind of reaction from people around the league, from people who enjoyed the NBA because of that transaction element. Oh, it's another chance for players to move teams.

it's another kind of, it's not quite a deadline in the sense of a trade deadline, but there's kind of an artificiality to, oh, they need to be released and moved on by this certain date, and therefore there's kind of an urgency to seeing where all these guys end up. But really what you're hoping for is like one good stretch in a playoff game. Like when I think of buyout players, I think of Corey Brewer on the Mavericks. I think of, or Paige Astroyoakovich on the Mavericks. I think about these guys who, you know, can you come in for one playoff game and give a team a burst of energy, a good run, something in a second quarter they might not have had with the other kind of guy on their bench, something like that.

And that's kind of what you're looking for with this group. And so when you start with kind of Reggie Jackson is the example of that, a guy who, you know, I think the Clippers did need a little bit of playmaking help, which is another guy who could handle the ball, who could make decisions. Can you come in for six minutes and keep things steady until the stars come back in or until we can get Lou Will back in or whatever it is? those kinds of things are important. It's just not important in the sense that he's going to put up huge box score numbers. He's going to be this really meaningful part of the rotation. It's just contextual in the right game at the right time. Can you deliver exactly what this team needs? I think a guy like Jackson could probably do that.

Someone like Michael Kid Gilchrist going to Dallas, for example, I think might be more of a reach in that department. See, that's interesting because I think with Reggie, I agree. I think it makes sense to bring in someone who's a veteran hand who could, if things go wrong if injury strike, you could just throw in there and he could be an approximation of a Lou Williams, for example. I'm just worried that Reggie Jackson doesn't realize that he's not Lou Williams and he's not going to get Lou Williams's role. Apparently, he's friends with Paul George, so maybe he just wants to write out the season on a good team and play winning basketball. But the whole story of Reggie Jackson's career is that he excelled as a backup

in Oklahoma City and then was very vocal about not wanting to be a backup anymore and wanting his opportunity. I haven't really checked in on our guy Reggie in a very long time, and so I'm not sure if he's been humbled by the situation or is kind of perhaps after getting waived, like, pretty come to terms of the fact that this is where his career lies at this point. But while I think he does fill a role, I am a little worried that now they have a lot of mouths to feed and a lot of guys who are prone to dribbling and prone to isolation. See, I'm a little curious, though, because I thought the MKG one was one of the more interesting one that have happened so far. if only because it seems like the Mavs have found a way to make the most of some guys who have been on the scrap.

I guess I look at them mostly as just the rim running centers, the Tyson Chandler's, Javelle McGee types, and they've been able to really rehabilitate a lot of their careers. And I wonder if MKG in this new positionless basketball world, I wonder if he could be something like that or at least a guy where you don't have to rely on offense because you do have Christoph's Prasengis is a guy who could pair him in the front court, or am I just like overrating MKG because Jonathan Charks once wrote that he would be the new Draymond Green at some point?

I mean, I do think that that's kind of how Dallas envisions him. It's clearly as more of a big than a wing, which is a shift kind of from where we've seen him over the course of his career. And it's a meaningful one for that reason, because if you're not going to be a shooter, if you're not going to have range as an offensive player, or even that much versatility in terms of, you know,

can you handle the ball or make plays or things like that, he really does have a skill set that could lend itself to that kind of rim running. The problem for me is, although the Mavs do need a fair bit of defense, especially if you're looking at their team more broadly going forward over kind of multiple years,

where does this team get better? I think there's no question. That's the side of the ball they have to focus on and figure out how to consolidate talent to get better defenders on the floor. But what makes and what has made Lucas so effective and so good is the way they've managed their spacing, is the way they've been able to balance the perimeter

and make sure that there's just no one in his way because he can beat guys. And that's been kind of the revelation of his season and the Mavs season is that he can blow by guys on the way to the rim with and without a screen. And once he gets in there, he's so good at making those reads. And I think having a guy like MKG on the floor, while helpful defensively, certainly,

while he could be an effective rim runner and ultimately the kind of guy the Mavs salvage into being a pretty useful player, I mean, I've always been a fan of what he's been able to do as a wing rebound or as a defender. The question is, is he going to gum up things offensively and take away from the best thing you have going, which is Luca Donchich working at the top of the floor.

Yeah, perhaps Marvin Williams would have been a better fit because of that. And I'm a little bum that Williams is going to the box, a team that is good. And perhaps he can find a role in that system, but they just have so many players. I do wonder if he's going to get on the floor. And then Jeff Green is something I just want to highlight. I think I'm most intrigued by this fit. I don't think that Jeff Green will be good because we have so much data now to suggest that even if he does play well for stretches,

he will not be good in the totality of his time with a certain team. But I am all for just everybody getting to go play center with the Rockets. It's almost like daycare where it's just like, oh, go have fun, like ride the slip and slide, just go try to guard Nikola Yokic for a little while. I don't know.

I just, I personally find the whole Rockets chemistry experiment here to be just really riveting basketball and just almost to see guys who at one point was like a three go down there and try to be something different is really, really fun to me. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, the tenor of the reporting suggested that they weren't really going to go after any centers, but I see two centers right here, DeMarie, and Jeff Green clearly. I mean, if anything, I think Carol is probably a little bit more enticing for me looking at their team, just because if you're one of the guys who's

kind of filling in around James Harden or Russell Westbrook, you almost don't want too much of the Jeff Green, like every fourth or fifth game, he's going to be pretty good kind of profile, although in some situations you need that in the right, you know, again, at the right case of the right time, if the offense is really gummed up, maybe Jeff Green pops off for, you know, 18 points or something and it's just really instrumental. I think overall, when you're looking at kind of the team's body of work, you want a little more dependability, someone who's a little bit more solid. That might not be the first thing that jumps to mind when you're thinking of Damari Carroll's shooting, for example. It can be a little flighty, but in

terms of positioning, in terms of defense, in terms of just kind of manning his spot and not going haywire and the way that Jeff Green tends to kind of go haywire sometimes. I like that fit a little better as a potential kind of bizarre stretch five. Yeah, I do think the one that I'm most, I think will make the most impact is a guy who hasn't hit the buyout market, which is Thompson. I think considering you look at the clippers and what they've needed, getting Jackson in there as a ball handler definitely helps. But I'm still a little unsold on Zubach is the guy who can guard Anthony Davis for even, I don't know, like five, ten minutes, which he'll have to do.

And if they get past the Lakers in the West or whoever they come against in the Western Conference playoffs, then you have Yannis and the Lopez twins waiting for you most likely in the finals. And so I think that Thompson is a guy who, if he gets let loose here, could potentially swing the finals? I don't know. as I said, I almost want to second kiss myself because I do think we talk ourselves into these buyout guys being significant contributors and rarely do they ever do that. But I don't know.

I just look at what they need and he's really the one guy, I think, you could just slot in there and they'd be worlds better. I don't know. Well, Tristan, I think, especially if we're talking about Anthony Davis or Nicoliochich, you know, how do we match up with the bigger centers of the Western conference? Tristan Thompson's not the solution that comes to mind for me in terms of what he gives you you that's independent from what's a Mantras Harrow gives you. When you're looking, you know, certainly a better defender, Tristan Thompson, I think, overall a little bit more seasoned in that regard, maybe a little bit more stout, but kind of

a similar mold of like undersized, again, relative to these, like a guy like Nicolioch, undersized energy big. And so I kind of, you know, again, if you get Tristan Thompson for effectively free by picking him up on the bio market, you know, good on you. I think, I think that's great. Maybe he'll, come in handy in certain situations, you know, beef up your rotation a little, but give you another option if things aren't working out with the guys you have. I don't see him changing their fortunes that much. But again, if he has one good game, maybe that's all that really matters. I think if we're looking at who are the most meaningful players ultimately in like a long-term

playoff run, I know we glossed over him a little bit earlier, but I think Marvin Williams is probably that guy. And some of it is just because he gives the bucks a little bit of something they didn't have. You know, Reggie Jackson, for as useful as he may be, is kind of just another version, you know, another ball handler on a team that has ball handlers. They just want to get a little deeper in that particular skill set. When you're looking at Marvin, I think there was kind of a gap in a stretch four type for the bucks where, you know, they can play Chris Middleton there. Obviously, they have a lot of guards on the roster. But if they want to keep Chris on the wing, as you may need to do, to match. match up with some of these other really good teams and, you know, have him guard wings to have the option of putting another shooter on the floor and a guy who, to your point about Reggie Jackson as well, isn't going to be any kind of squeaky wheel in terms of minutes. I think he's just going to

kind of play his role. He's a good team guy. Everyone raves about him who has played with him and coached him. That's the kind of pickup that I think could end up making something happen for the bucks just because Milwaukee is projected to go pretty far. They're going to have lots of opportunities to give him, you know, oh, we're going to throw you into a random game three or game four of this series. Let's see what you can do for a couple of minutes. And I think he's the kind of veteran who can play well in that situation. Yeah, so a lot of sagely just wisdom from Marvin Williams. He just definitely has that vibe where he's been around and like nothing phases him.

I spent a little time with him during that one Charlotte playoff run where they ended up losing to the heat in seven games. And I think the biggest thing for Marvin this year is just he's on a contract year. or I guess he's coming off of a contract year now that he just assigned a minimum. Every year that he ends up just like playing way above his head, he ends up getting way more than he's probably worth and then tends to disappear from the radar for a while.

But yeah, no, I'm encouraged about that one. And I don't know, another guy just on here, just to throw out here is Tyler Johnson. I know he hasn't had a good run of late. Like if you can't stick on the suns, it's probably not a good sign for you. But I do wonder if he's the type of guy who could pick up some minutes

you know, throw him on the Lakers, for instance, and he runs a little bit of the offense. Maybe if Al-Carruso gets hurt, or if Rajan Rondo, who I don't have much confidence in is being a key contributor for that team, I do wonder if he's someone who could end up sticking there. Now to transition a little bit to Johnson's former team or the team that tried to pull him away from South Beach originally,

I want to talk about the Nets here. So things aren't going well for our guys in Brooklyn, or maybe they are. Maybe this is actually a silver lining in disguise. So the news yesterday was that Kyrie Irving is now out indefinitely after reagravating his right shoulder injury. He's already missed 26 games

and it seems like based on what they're saying he'll miss a few more. He's expected to see a specialist as a result. Kenny Atkinson speaking to the media yesterday said that's all I could tell you his shoulder continues to bother him. That's about the extent of it now.

So pretty vague, which is not, only how it's been for Irving's shoulder, but for Irving in general during his more recent tenures. He has only played at this point 20 games and the Nets are 8 and 11 with him in the lineup. I guess my question, Rob, is, are we sure in the big picture if this Kyrie Irving thing is going to work out? Well, for starters, as far as the vagary of his injury goes, it's also the way it's kind of gone with the Nets all year. I mean, they've been incredibly close to the best in terms of what the hell is going on with Kyrie Irving in his injury situation,

which kind of sets the mood for this whole discussion. When externally, I don't know to what degree things are being communicated internally in terms of when he's going to be back or how he's feeling or whatever that is. But that's certainly the kind of opportunity where people can start to talk a little bit, within a team even as far as different messages. Take, for example, Kevin Durant's playoff injury last year with the Warriors. where even in that situation, I think there were some communication issues, some different understandings from player to player on the team, from within the team itself as far as what

exactly was happening and whether he would be able to come back or why he came back or didn't at certain times. And so when you have that going on in the background, and then all the other Kyrie stuff, generally speaking, on top of it, I mean, for one, I don't think this season was ever set up to be some kind of smashing success. This has been kind of a means of waiting around until Kevin Durand is healthy enough to play again. And so this season is kind of, you know, you're going to take what you get, you know, even from a perspective of Kyrie's health. And maybe that's kind of the big negative here was that even in a season that was kind

of a scratch for a lot of reasons, they haven't been able to keep Kyrie healthy and keep him on the floor and get him rest and really recharge for what ultimately is going to be a much more important season next year, that's kind of the difficulty in managing and understanding all this. And some of it's just bad luck. Some of it's just Kyrie's body. some of its, you know, things breaking down at inopportune times, but the nets really are in a weird spot for that reason.

And I think, you know, with Kyrie, there's always the question of his injury history and also his chemistry and also his style of play and whether he's going to be plugged in on defense or not. There are a lot of kind of variables that need to break your way on a Kyrie team for things to go really swimmingly. And when they do, you can win the championship. And when they don't, you may turn into last season's Boston Celtics. So we'll see where the nets kind of fall in that spectrum.

of things ultimately. Yeah, outside of the six to seven things that you mentioned, everything has gone very well for Kyrie Irving on the Nets. No, if he's hurt, I get it. Like, take the time. This is not the season to really be pushing it. It seemed like the Nets were pretty understanding of that when they went into this whole situation.

You don't sign Kevin Durant and expect him to miss the entire season without just, like, having some leniency here. I guess my worry is that Kyrie Irving seems like the type of guy who's like willing to take a gap year and just like, I wouldn't be surprised if he just shows up in France just like just like going sightseeing and whatnot and I think the other part about this is the news came down a couple days after it had been announced

that he's now apparently the VP of the Players Association and so I don't know like maybe he's like listen we're probably going to be the eight seed anyway I'll take some time off I'll work my caucuses I'll really get my my budget down I'll hire my chief of staff I don't know it's just it's kind of a bummer

and I think the bigger question is does this matter? Does it matter if the Nets are bad this year because Kevin Durant isn't there? Next year, the only year that really matters is are we going to throw out everything? Or does the fact that the Nets seem to play better without Kairi, is that going to trickle into next season

when they are fully loaded? Well, I do think that when you're looking at what could conceivably happen, over the rest of this year. You know, could the Nets miss the playoffs? Could they slide all the way out? It's possible, certainly. I think it would reflect pretty poorly, even on the roster they have,

not because, you know, if you look at a team whose best player on most nights, given Kyrie's absence, given Kevin Durant's absence, has been, you know, Spencer Dinwiddie, I guess, has been their best player for the majority of their games this year. Should a team with Spencer Dinwiddie as its best player be a lock for the playoffs? Probably not. but the bar in the east has been so low in terms of what it's going to take to get the eighth seat.

I mean, really right now, you're looking at a 36, 37 win pace to make that threshold. You would hope that even the collection of surrounding talent there would be able to manage that. Even with Kyrie in and out of the lineup, even with some of the weirdness of him,

you know, calling out which teammates are important by name and thus omitting several others and even with everything that's going on with, you know, Kevin Durant's long-term rehab, you would hope that the Nets would be able to get to that point. And I think that speaks to, you know, Karris Levert's own injury issues, his inability to kind of get the momentum of his career started,

to kind of piece together a functional team on a night-to-night basis. I mean, I think the Nets are a competitive team. They certainly have a way of sticking in games. They just don't really have enough under these circumstances to really bowl anything over. So they're constantly in dog fights. It really is a weird position for them this year, because I don't know what the markers of success quite are under these circumstances.

If you're not getting Kyrie back, if you're getting him back very late in the season, where are you ultimately setting those benchmarks? Because, again, as we mentioned, this isn't a team that's playing for a hell of a lot right now. Yeah, in other situations, you would view losing your star during a year where you're really kind of just playing with house money to be a golden opportunity for some of the other guys that you're expecting to fill in around your two superstars to really show themselves and to step up

and really define their roles. I guess maybe it's just a matter of perspective, but I look around and I see more question marks as a result of that happening than really answers. So for instance, you mentioned Caros Levert. He's been injured yet again this season, and when he's played, he hasn't just jumped off the page,

which is important because I think he has to be a key contributor for this team. And if he isn't going to fit around Durant and Irving and all the other guys that they have in there now, he is probably their biggest trade piece. and a guy who could potentially get you that third guy down the road if he is everything we expect him to be.

Dinwiddie has been playing really well when he's not just worried about his own stock, I guess, is what he is considered now. But I do wonder if everybody's back in there whether a trade makes more sense because Dinwiddie has shown almost that the team responds to him a little bit better. I'll say that's just to be clear. The team hasn't played particularly poorly with Kyrie Irving,

but I think the key distinction is I think Kyrie is just a good enough player that they play okay with them in there, but it does feel like they play more like a cohesive unit with Dinwiddie. And then the other part of this is Joe Harris, you know, one of the best three-point shooters in the league and a guy that they kind of grew into who he is now, a guy who was on Team USA just this past summer, is an unrestricted free agent.

And he's a guy you want to keep, and you could potentially just go over the cap to keep him. But I do wonder in this market where everybody wants a shooter, whether or not they're going to be able to keep him. And especially if he's just tired of the Kyrie Irving Act and it's just not a good environment there. That's just, I don't know. It just seems like there's a lot to really figure out here.

And more than you would like considering, as we mentioned, this is really just a low-stakes year. Well, and so much is still going to change. You know, when Durant comes back, whatever form he's in is going to take up a lot of the oxygen of the offense. A lot of shots, a lot of touches. Kyrie is obviously the same. Working those two guys back in.

into the lineup next season was going to force kind of some dramatic changes role or otherwise anyway. And so the question was then how are you going to fit all those pieces? But I think there are some bigger questions here as far as, you know, as you mentioned, what are your long-term plans with Spencer Denwitty, who, you know, I think you could argue, you know, if we already have a guard like Kyrie, do we want to reallocate our resources and try to move him on? But at the same time has been so important, as you mentioned, in terms of managing without Kyrie, who has proven to be a guy you kind of need insurance for because of his body. And then also because of just, again, talking about those minutes when he's not on the floor and whether you can kind of

salvage those and play those to a winning margin. Again, the next one of these teams I've had trouble all year getting a feel for. And some of that is, you know, knowing who's in the lineup and who's healthy and who's going to be available and able to actually help them. But also they just can't seem to kind of get on any consistent track over the course of this year. Yeah, there's kind of Indiana Pacers vibes here where, and Rob you wrote about this for us on the ringer, just they've built something and now

they're trying to apply a star who has an injured past to what they have and there's going to be an adjustment period. And I think how we're talking about it with the Nets is instructive because at the very least it kind of represents our outlook on the Nets in general

and also like how Kairi weaves his way into a kind of an existing ecosystem. A, a team that works, a team that's running properly. And while he is a very talented player and a player that could take that team to the next level, there are sacrifices you have to make. And it does feel like, I don't know,

it just feels like that is something that if they're not going to deal with now, it's definitely going to be coming up this summer when you get Durant back in there. But I do want to pivot here now to a team that has no problems, really at this point. I think the only issues here for the Milwaukee Bucks are how good they're going to. to be over the stretch run

and whether or not Janus has already sewed up the MVP award. So let's start with Janus specifically. So we're kind of at the point here where it seems like it's a two-horse race and the MVP discussion between Janus and LeBron.

Can you see any situation? And this is one of our questions and storylines for going forward here. Can you see a situation where Janus doesn't win MVP this year? I think there would have to be some kind of narrative shift a little bit because Janus has been unbelievable.

All throughout the season, the Bucks are, again, on a historic pace, have been the best team in the league to this point. So what would a guy like LeBron, for example, need to overtake that? Short of, you know, this has been one of LeBron's better late career seasons, maybe his best passing season ever, some of that's probably playing with Anthony Davis and having that kind of target to play with on a nightly basis.

LeBron has been really, really good, I think, especially, you know, given the standards he set last season, where we weren't quite sure, you know, how dialed in he could be on an every possession basis. You know, I don't want to cast aspersions or anything contribute to like hashtag washed king in this. But, you know, he, I think LeBron put enough questions into the air with his play and how he chose to exert himself or not last season where we could ask some questions. All of them have been answered this year. He's been really incredible for the Lakers.

And yet, I think Janus has just been better by a pretty significant moment. margin in terms of what you're getting from these guys on an every night basis and how much he's been, how much, you know, Janus has been able to carry for ultimately what's been the best team in the league. Yeah. How you close that gap, I don't really know. Yeah, there is kind of a case building for LeBron. And it's that one stat that keeps floating around that when LeBron is off the floor and Anthony Davis is on

the floor, the team is way worse, which seemed to suggest that LeBron is just everything for the Lakers and that as good as Anthony Davis is on both ends of the court, he still needs a LeBron in order to activate him. I guess the issue, though, is just that, like, Janus, yet again, has the statistical argument himself. And so I do wonder if what is going to work against Janus more than anything is just fatigue, is just the fact that we already gave him the MVP last year. And now he's just been so good. It's almost, like, assumed that he's going to win the...

his second one. And I don't think it helps Janus that he has managed to stay out of the public eye almost willingly. He seems like he wants to avoid interviews. It seems like he doesn't want to feed into whatever narratives.

We kind of project onto the bucks into him. He really quickly shot down and he talked about his free agency and he rarely talks about it, although he talked about it at all start and I do want to get to that. But as we've seen in the past, LeBron has a way of just

insinuating something and we run with it or just like, you know, just managing to find a way to talk about something and all of a sudden that becomes the dominant storyline. And so I do wonder if LeBron's own ability to manipulate the media as cynical and as weird as it is to say, I do wonder if that almost might work to his advantage? Is that too much? No, I don't think it's too much. I mean, everything is political. You know, when you look at, you know, ultimately obviously the presidential race and who has kind of the airspace when, who's dominated in the media cycle when, if you look at the Oscar race and which, you know, which contenders are really hitting at different times and how those things are staggered throughout the year. There's a

calculus to all of this. I think in the NBA, it's a little bit less conscious from a player standpoint for most guys. But LeBron, I think whether his aim is, you know, angling for awards or not, we've seen him do it somewhat in the past saying, you know, he wanted to, he wanted to be concerned for a defensive player of the year at different stages in his career. He wanted to be kind of thought of as this kind of player or that kind of player. Really, he hasn't had that problem because he's always been either the best or near the top of the league for the majority of the time he's been in the NBA. So he hasn't really had to stump for those things.

But he is a guy who, just by the nature of who he is and the way he manages a team in a locker room does tend to be in that conversation. Things do kind of stir around him on a pretty consistent basis. And I think the Lakers have been an exception to that in a lot of ways. You know, it's been some pretty good vibes out there that really hasn't been a lot to talk about in terms of the classic, oh, LeBron needs more help kind of narrative, which, again, was very valid in some of those Cleveland teams. This year clearly has not really been an issue because the Lakers have been able to manage the rotation in a different way. But he is a guy who can be in that conversation whenever he wants to be. And I think Yannis has a certain amount of power as a superstar if he even wanted to wield it.

but it's really just not in the same class. And so if LeBron decides to kind of put his mind to that effort, he absolutely could at least control the messaging of the race in a different way. Yeah, and I also think it's working against Janus that he probably doesn't have the reps in front of the big media because as we saw this past All-Star weekend where he sat down for this very strange what seemed to be driven by one of his sponsors' interview with USA Today where he was on video and in which in describing, I believe the question was about teaming up

with his brothers, one of whom plays with him in Milwaukee and another is now on the Lakers on a two-way contract. His specific quote is, if we could team up in a team, Milwaukee, L.A., or whatever, that would be awesome.

And I look at that, and I think when you see it on paper, when you see it written now, it sounds explosive. It sounds like the type of thing where it would, like, a bigger market or someone else saying that we would run with it.

But I look at that and I see someone who probably hasn't had as much practice watching what he says and being particular with his words. And it just came off really bad to the point where we're now in kind of a dead media period and we're trying to kind of latch on to anything that comes across our way. And this was like the top thing on NBA Reddit. Do you have any thoughts on this? Is this more important than I'm giving it? I just think the super teams need to stop.

You know, like, we need to, we've been talking for years about how the Lakers were angling to get Costa's and the Nasus onto Dacompo, and finally we get all the evidence we need that they and Yannis have been secretly scheming this entire time to get out there. It's, I will say this, like, it is kind of interesting that this happens, and again, it was probably just a throwaway comment from Yannis. I don't really know what was going through his head or anything,

but the bucks have been fined, I think, twice for tampering with their own player for basically saying that they were going to keep, you know, know that they wanted Janus. Actually, no, I think one of them was because they were happy to be considered by Anthony Davis. But, you know, at least in one case that they were planning to extend Janus. And you can see why, if anything, that kind of stuff is money well spent.

I'm sure Janus and his representation know that a Supermax offer is coming their way. But when you're a team like the Bucks, you really have to get so far ahead of this stuff, not only because players want to play in L.A. and want to play for certain teams. But you want to kind of make sure that the conversation is steered in a particular way. and make sure that everything around Yanis's pointing to the fact that this franchise absolutely needs you, like you were so instrumental and elemental here, even when you're maybe daydreaming about playing with your brothers in a different market. Yeah, and Yanos was also asked about his future,

and he said specifically on the bucks, he's only to stay there as long as we're winning. Again, another thing that could be warped to suggest that he doesn't want to be there, yada yada, or at the very least he's not committed to the long term, but it really is consistent with what he said in the past about them. And quite frankly, I don't know what we want people to say. Like, good players want to play on good teams. And it seems like Janus in particular cares about that more than anyone. And the Bucks are winning more than anybody.

And perhaps could win more than almost any team throughout history. And so they are currently 46 and 8. All of the numbers suggest that they're one of the better teams in recent history. They need to go 24 and 4 the rest of the way, though, if they want to become one of three teams to win 70 games in the regular season, they're currently on pace based on their win percentage to win 69.9. So, yeah, that puts them right there. But they do have the fifth hardest schedule to come.

I guess my question, Rob, is, do you care at all about this? Does it matter at this point, considering what we saw with the Warriors breaking the record for regular season wins and not winning the title? Does it really, like, has this feat been done? diminished for you. I don't think it's been diminished too much, and especially coming off a conversation in which we're talking about, you know, Janus's future and wanting to make sure that you're representing the team in a, you know, a winning light in the sense that, you know, you can stay here and compete for titles. You can stay here and be on one of the best teams in the league annually. And for him to, for him to answer that he was, you know, happy with the bucks as long as we're winning, that's how it should be.

You kind of should be content or at least, you know, by all means, you know, prioritize whatever you want in your life. If you want to live in a different city or chase a different opportunity. But as far as whether things are stable as long as we're winning, putting that condition on it, I think that's a really healthy thing for superstars to do with the teams they play for. And that's where you look at something like 70 wins. And should the round number matter, should that threshold matter? Probably not. Like, if they only win 68 or 69 games, are they a materially different team?

Obviously not. A couple of these games are going to swing on a few possessions, a couple of missed shots, a couple loose balls, whatever it is. But it's another thing you can kind of hang on that dynamic, on that conversation saying, you know, yes, you can win other places. You can compete for titles, other places. We did this incredible thing together, Janus and the Bucks. Going into this year's playoffs, you know, the confidence that can give you as a team. I think, you know, we could have a conversation about the Warriors and the 73 win season as far as whether that was ultimately, worth it or not, I kind of think that they ended up

losing for reasons they were at least partially, if not largely unrelated to it. And it's not like the Bucks are having to really kill themselves to go for this thing. They're kind of playing within the flow of who they are. And by golly, we're almost at the threshold of 70 wins.

Yeah, I think a lot of good teams have been lost to history because they didn't have something like this to really mark where they stand in history. They don't have something to really stand out amongst the rest of the good teams. I'm thinking about all the teams

that ultimately didn't make it in the East because of either Michael Jordan or LeBron James. I think it would be cool if the Bucks don't end up winning a title this season to really have something to look back on and say, like, this mattered. We were better than almost every team in history. And I don't know.

I think I'm just worried more than anything that they won't go for it because of the field. that this happened to the wars and they don't want to have that stain on them. But I guess we'll see here. And I think that is a good place to wrap it up for today. We will be back next week at our usual schedule league program. Until then, for Rob and for me, we will see you next time.

Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.