The Ringer NBA Show - The Celtics’ Dominant Game 1 Finals Win and What to Expect from Dallas in Game 2. Plus, Is Dan Hurley the Right Fit for the Lakers? | Real Ones

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Logan and Raja discuss how the Celtics blew out the Mavs in Game 1 of the NBA Finals, Boston’s effective defensive schemes against Luka and Kyrie, and how Jaylen Brown stepped up to meet the moment (1:44). Along the way, they react to Kristaps Porzingis’s explosive return from injury and the major impact he has on both sides of the ball when he’s on the floor (33:43). Later, they briefly unpack the two front-runners for the Lakers' head-coaching vacancy—JJ Redick and Dan Hurley—and what each hire could mean for the team moving forward (47:45). Finally, the guys close with their Real Ones of the Week (52:14). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Justin Varyer here from group chat on The Ringer NBA show, and we want you to come hang out with us for a live podcast recording on Tuesday, June 18th at 8 p.m. Bigwas, Rob Mahoney, and I are kicking off the Ringer residency at the L-ray Theater in Los Angeles. Get your tickets now at the ringer.com slash events while they last. Hope to see you there. What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell, there. I am live from Studio C and Spotify Hub in Los Angeles, California. Rogers joining via satellite from the

from a garage, from a dingy garage in South Florida. Well, look at the setup. You see me, bro? You're locked in? Can we get a tweet to the people with the setup?

Can we just see what Logan's doing right now? So I'm out here, bro. They record higher learning here. You know, we recorded the live stream Ringer NBA show here last night. Go check that out. Me, Syrett Sohee, Tate, Frazier. We're talking game one.

of the NBA finals the morning after. Rogers locked the fuck in because he's already done Ryan Rucillo out here promoting the pod, promoting the brand on a big platform. So he's ready to lock in. You're ready to go, huh? I just doing my part, man.

Everybody's got a role to play, you know? I see it. I see it. So you said you was ready to go. Let's just go right into it. What is the first thing you want to talk about since you're already locked in? This is the first pod in like three weeks

where you're like, let's fucking go. Let's do this. Let's forget what. forget what you have to say, Logan. Let's forget the pleasantries. Let's pod. What was the biggest thing that stuck out of you in game one? Biggest thing was the Celtics energy versus what the Mavs had coming out of the gate.

It just seemed like the Mavs were kind of stuck in mud early. Or if they weren't, the Celtics were just that much sharper, more intent, more energetic. There were way more multiple efforts early from, from the Celtics in a way that really set the tone for the game. The tempo was up, up. No one was messing around with the ball. There weren't stagnant possessions and stagnant touches. Boston was clearly the more ready team coming out of the gates last night.

Just from the beginning stretch, and I kept thinking about you, Ra, where I was, just the defensive intensity was at an all-time high for the Boston Celtics. And the defense was so good that it really erased a lot of the bad things that happened with that came. across with the Boston Celtics. I'm talking about Jason Tatum, who I think went six of 16. Played great defense.

But, you know, it masked a lot of their flaws and a lot of the things that they didn't have together. We'll get to some of the shortcomings, and particularly that third quarter for the Celtics. But the biggest thing that stuck out to me, and this was a question going into the series, a question that me and you actually had a back and forth with on the last pot of how the the Mavericks were going to guard Luca and Kyrie. And they did a really good job, specifically with Luca. Kyrie will talk about that in a second.

I have some thoughts on just how Kyrie played and how he came into the series. And maybe there were some nerves there, I'm not sure. But the biggest thing that I was scared of was putting a Jalen Brown on Luca and what that physicality would do for him on the offensive end. It didn't do anything. He was the leading scorer for the Boston Celtics and was able to kind of impose his will on Luca. I know Luca had 30 and was the game high, but it took him 26 shots, only had one assist.

Yeah, he worked for that. He worked for that. There was a time in the third quarter where Jalen just, I've been really impressed by Jalen Brown. We'll talk about that throughout this podcast, but he was really good that night. What did you think of the defense from him on Luca Donchance? And can that be sustainable throughout the series?

Well, Luke is not going to shoot like that for an entire series. Lucas is as good as anyone in the league. He'll go back to the film, and he'll see some areas, and I saw them with my naked eye where he didn't have to work as hard for shots. Like he had already kind of created one, and he passed it up.

There were a few of those that I thought, you know, overall, if you're shooting those over the course of time, it's going to lend itself to you shooting a better percentage and being a better offensive version of yourself. But I did think Jalen Brown came out with intent to pick Luca up early, make him work in ways,

even to get the ball across half court. you just talked about that possession where he stripped him in the back court. Like typically, Luca isn't getting picked up in the back court on most nights. Like, you know, you rarely seen him have to work the ball to get it across half court. He's usually in the front court before somebody kind of locks in and starts challenging where he can go with the ball. So Jalen Brown came out. That was obviously part of the game plan. Get him off of his spots, which I think as a primary defender is the first point of attack with any,

with any like world-class scores to get him, get him, off of the spots that they're used to operating in to start possessions, right? And then his energy and his length were on display all night, like not just as the primary defender on Luca, but as a secondary defender. And in some instances, as the helper guy where he's got to come across and boom, he's at the rim, like blocking a dunk or, you know, catching a Kyrie, deflecting a lob, you know, as it's going up or, you know,

getting a piece of Kyrie's floater. I thought his energy just jumped off the page. And interestingly, this is what I was kind of saying about the Luca offensive piece as it related to Boston defensively. They've got a bunch of guys that, like, even Al Horford did a pretty good job, stand in front and, you know, you shoot this contested Jay over me, but it's going to be a heavily contested Jay. I'm seven feet.

You know, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum are both okay. But Jalen is the type of player that I think because he's, such an energy guy that that defense can fuel that offense. You know, so like if he's engaged and locked in and having success on that side of the ball and any of that specifically relates to getting him out in transition and getting like a, you know, some kind of bang out like that, now he becomes a different animal on the offensive side of the ball. Well, the other thing, and I've talked about this with LeBron where I forgot, I think it was

the Warriors series or maybe it was the Western Conference finals last. year where the strategy should be to just attack, attack, attack LeBron on the offensive and defensive end to tire him out. LeBron, even at this advanced age, is so much even more, incredibly more condition than Luca is. But you saw throughout the series or throughout the game one where Luca was just getting tired. He was getting his ass kicked the whole game. And by the start, I think, of the fourth quarter, he was gassed.

I think that's the game plan going forward if I'm the Celtics, right? It's just I'm just going to kick his ass. I'm going to make him tired because if we've ever seen with Luca throughout his postseason time, it is him generating the offense. It is him trying to initiate.

And the anecdote to that is, okay, get what you need to get, Luca. We're going to make it as hard as it can possibly be for you to get those 30 and 10. you got to double double. It was great. But we're going to make it as hard as hard as it can possibly get. And last night, you saw all of the critiques of the Dallas Mavericks come true in that

when it's Lucas offense and no one else can really get their fair share and really can get their bag, we'll talk about Kyrie in a second. But that seems like the game plan going forward. Because if you kick Lucas ass, the other guys are following him, the PJ Washington's, the Derek Jones, the lively, who got in a bit of a foul trouble. But when they kind of galvanize around Luca, and when he's tired, he's grabbing ass and he's not being the conditioned guy that he should be, it really rears this ugly head. And I think you saw that a lot in game one, and that affected a lot of the Mavericks'

offense throughout the game. Yeah, well, let's start with the defensive piece for the Mavericks. You're always going to look around your lineup, no matter if it's Luca or any other team with with a star like that, and you're going to have to protect somebody. And even if they're all great defensive players, you're probably going to want to protect the guy whose primary job is to initiate offense, right? Because it's a workload.

And, you know, at some point, it's going to hurt your ability to score the ball to have him working so hard on the defensive end. So even if he's not a great defender, let's give him an assignment that protects his energy reserve. We call that hiding in the NBA. We hide the guy on... I was trying to be polite.

Question, another question, though. Were you ever the guy that they ever hide guys on you? Who was the guy that hid the defender? Yeah, they would try to hide guys on me. Is that disrespectful to you when that happens? Especially early in my career. For sure, it's disrespectful. You know, Avery Johnson used to play like mind games with me.

This was when I was an established shooter in the league. He would still try to hide Dirk Nowitzky on me and it would fuck with me. I'd be like, what? You'd be like, ain't that a bitch? I was talking to Tony Allen like a couple weeks ago and he was still, because I don't know if you remember, but during the 2015 Warriors Grizzlies, we're getting off kilter, who gives a fuck? You know how it is in real ones.

Ah, but he was talking about how they put Andrew Bogot on him and how much that hurt his soul. And like, put Andrew Bogot on him, I'm putting that in air quotes. They literally use Andrew Boggart as an extra defender in the paint and just let him get through. He just, it was still hurting him, how disrespectful that was just to get game planned against. Yeah, I think, you know, it, for me, it was,

really tough earlier in my career because I just knew I could shoot the ball and because I didn't have the platform and the opportunity. Like, I wasn't confident enough in it. As I got, as I got older and was able to get out there and work through the jitters and stuff like that offensively, people didn't do that anymore because I'd hit you for eight or nine threes in a game. And that, like, I'm not the primary score. So if I'm doing that, you're probably going to lose. As it were last night, Boston has too many weapons to really hide Luca. You didn't have a quote unquote, Tony Allen on the floor. You know, this is a different day in an age

where everyone on the Boston Five can create. Even Al Horford in an advanced age in his career. His old house was getting to the cup. He was out here getting three. Started the game off off a swing, swing, quick, hard pump fake and like straight down the baseline and piped it on somebody.

Did a little bit of you feel like, yeah, I could still do this, give me like 10 days? No. No. Okay. Because I had ran 8-1-10s earlier in the day as part of my workout, and my back was already seizing up.

on me. So like there was no chance that that was going to anything like that would register. But when you're trying to hide a Luca, there's got to be somewhere to hide him. And Boston doesn't provide you that opportunity with those lineups because they can all get it. So, you know, the only thing that works against you if you're Boston is the shot clock at that point. If, if Dallas can negotiate and navigate all of the different screens that you're going to bring into play in a way that keeps Luca off of the ball before the shot. clock runs out, you win. But if they can figure it out Boston, that is, and get Luca to have to be in one of those

actions with about seven to eight seconds on the shot clock, now you've got your guy. And no matter who it is in that five, I just told you, they can create, whether it's Al in the post with Luca or any of the rest of them out there on the perimeter. And that's going to be a problem. You saw them start trying to zone up a little bit to try to protect. There were different things that the Mavericks tried to various levels. success. I want to talk about the other part of it, which is Luca scoring relatively inefficiently, having the boards

but not having the assist. And I talk about as a coach living in this space all the time. What you can't have is Luca getting his and then spoon feeding everyone else. Can't do that. And by spoon feeding and I said this to Ryan, like, I don't mean it disrespectful. I used to get spoon fed. That means Logan creates, creates, creates, and then he just drops it to me and all I have to do is execute the shot that I work on all the time. I'll be at it, whether it's a dunk, a layup, or a three, right?

Like, you've done all the work. I just got to cash out now. What the boss in Celtics get a good job of was navigating like, Luca's going to get his and we're going to kind of stay home and let him get tough shots, make tough shots. But if he gets rid of it, we are going to be there in a way that that that player now doesn't just get to execute a wide open shot. He's got to do something to create.

If it's one dribble, if it's a head fake, quick bounce and dunk, whatever it is, he's got to do something with the ball to score, and that changes the math exponentially. It's one other thing that I was thinking about, just from a win standpoint, when I watched the Celtics, I watched the Celtics a lot in the 2022 finals because I was at a lot of those games, right? And there's always an adjustment period in the finals in terms of conditioning. and just meeting the moment. And the Celtics just didn't have that, right? We talked about that last night on the live show,

where it seemed like the Celtics were able to set the tone very, very early, very deliberate with their movements, right? A lot of that had to do with Porzengis and the jolt that he just gave the crowd. That was a top three crowd in reaction to when Prasigis came on the floor pregame, it just gave a jolt to the TD Garden. but they seem to play with a lot more purpose and a lot more experience. You could tell this was a different team at this stage.

And I was really, really impressed by that. One of the catalyst of that, and I think all season long we've been trying to figure out, not even all season long, ever since Marcus Smart has been traded away from that team, where are they going to find the fight from? Who is going to be the alpha for this team? And I've been really, really, really impressed by Jalen Brown

that he has taken on that role of being that alpha, right, for this team. And I know we always talk about that's always the narrative of who's going to be the number one, who's going to be this guy. But I do feel like Jalen is taking a next step in terms of his leadership in terms of getting his guys into sets. I was talking, one of my homies is a big Celtics fan. He's from Vegas, but it's a huge Celtics fan. His name is Brett. I don't get how that correlation happens.

some pretty disappointed. But one of the observations that he had was watching the pressers with Jalen, and he's always talking about, these are my guys. I got to get my guys in order. I got to get my guys figuring this stuff out and get them ready for these games. And you see it in spurts throughout this postseason, but you're looking at teams like, okay, it's the heat. It's the Indiana Pacers.

Like, how much are we going to learn about the Celtics in this time? But I think on this big stage, I think Jalen is starting to take that next step in terms of leadership and in terms of getting the setting the tone. What have you seen from his evolution over the last couple of years as the player? Yeah, first of all, I just want to say that, you know, leaders come in different sizes, shapes, colors. Like, you never know who that leader is going to be, right? We all want that prototypical, like, guy that's going to be the face of the franchise and he does the most scoring so he's going to lead. It doesn't always work like that. And then even if that guy, like let's say Jason Tatum, for instance, is a good leader,

he might not be the type of leader that fits the bill necessarily and checks all the boxes in terms of the outward perception of a leader. Jalen Brown fits the criteria for what we can see from the outside of that building as a leader. Like he does the things that we're talking about. He looks like he meets that moment of. when the team needs something from someone more often. Like, it's his personality. That doesn't mean that behind closed doors and in huddles and so on and so forth,

that Jason Tatum isn't an excellent leader. So I want to make sure I'm saying that. But I think Jalen Brown seems to have the personality that from the outside looking in, when they need something and when I'm looking at you as a role guy, like, hey, man, are we good? I've talked about this moment, Logan. I'm looking around like, are we good guys? Because I could go 50-50.

I'm waiting to see whether one of you guys is good. Jalen seems like the dude that more often than not would be like, Coach, I got them, we're good. And he's, you know, I know he's grown certainly. I don't know how much of that is like the natural progression of two guys trying to figure out who the true alpha is in that space and who makes the team run better when they are working as that piece. But last night when the stakes were the highest,

I mean, that's when it reveals itself, right? Like, he stepped out there in a way on both ends of the floor. And just with an energy and a look in the eye, like, we're good. Jason Tatum, like, he didn't shoot it great. But I thought he played very well, but it was complimentary. Do you know what I mean? Like, Jalen had the look. He looked like he was the guy last night.

I mean, there was, we were making fun of, there was a clip in the beginning of the, of game one during the pregame where they always have Jason Tatea miced up. I don't know if that's the thing that he wants to have or the NBA just wants him miced up, but he said I think he was talking to Derek White

or somebody and he was like, it's going to be all right, guys, or something along the lines of that, right? And he just seemed not that he wasn't locked in because everybody has their own path, but it seemed like he was trying to convince himself that everything was going to be okay because we're here and there was a nervousness there,

right? And whereas Jalen at that point was like, no, fuck that. I see blood. I'm wearing all black. I got the leather. We're here. I'm looking like Blade Part 6. It's going down, right?

And I think the Celtics needed a bit more of the latter. And kudos to Jason Tatum because a lot of guys who are bestowed the number one, and he still got the most shots. If you look at the stats, he still had the most shots in the game, I think 16. And, but I want to give credit to Jason Tatum because a lot of guys in that position would take the ego trip

and won't just slot themselves in the number two based on what the game requires. Because at the end of the day, it's all about the ring. It doesn't matter how you get it. And I thought that he did a really good job of taking a step because Kyrie has done that a lot during this postseason, too.

When we give them credit for that, we should give credit to Jason Tatum for doing the same thing. I agree. I agree. And to my original point, like, you know, Jason Tatum could get all the shots and stuff like that, but I said leaders come in all different like shape, sizes and colors. So like your leading score isn't always your leader, right? Like the emotional cue for whether or not we're good or not or how we're going to like comport ourselves in this game might come from someone who's not your leading field goal attempt guy.

Like there's no, you don't know who the leader is until you get into practices until you get into moments until you get in the fire. and that just reveals itself organically, right? And I do think you have to give Jason Tatum some credit. These two have grown up together in terms of NBA, like, experience. And so I think they very kind of seamlessly and easily drift between who 1A and 1B is, right? And it's taken some time. They've gotten better at that dance of like, you lead a little bit, I follow. But now I lead and you follow.

And we're not going to step on each other's toes because it's great to have two people who can do that in any given time. And you do have to commend everyone involved in that process when it works like that. Yeah. No, and it was a sight to behold, man, especially just how

they kind of complimented each other, right? Because I think there always comes a time. And we've talked about this, just finding your role in the league, right? And the ebbs and flows that come with that. You know, I've talked to Jalen extensively just about how he wanted to, you know, just get these individual accolades. You're seeing Brandon Ingram do good things, Ben Simmons doing good things.

And he's like, no, I'm better to know. And I'm just in a different situation. So I'm kind of trying to just fight through that, right? And then once you get to the point of where you were a bona fide score and a bona fide leader on the team, you kind of want to test that. How far can I bring this limit, right? That's the 2022 Jalen Brown. And now you see the 2024 Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum.

partnership where they're kind of feeding off of each other. And I think that that's something to be said about team building in the modern era and how it kind of should be, right? That's the best case scenario where you have partnership and you guys can kind of grow together. I want to talk about a former Celtic, Mr. Kyrie Irving, which I don't know how you felt about just his game, but it seemed like he was as timid as I've seen him in a long time, right? But the story of Kyrie in these playoffs is he's the jolt of energy, whether it's I'm going to make an imprint in the third quarter by my points and I'm just going to play shut down defense the rest of the game, right? Or I'm just going to, when Luke is not doing while I'm going to score when I need to score.

I need to do these things, right? But this one, it seemed like he wasn't as decisive as he's been throughout these playoffs. It seemed like he was playing really nervous. And that was really weird to see, considering he's probably the one with the most postseason experience on the floor, right? And I saw a lot of just dribbling off the foot, just, you know, throwing to the stands. It looked like something was in his head. What did you see from Kyrie Irving in Boston in game one? Yeah, he looks sped up.

He looked rushed. He looked like he was pressing a little bit. And, you know, that was a very hostile environment he was in. and I know he's been back to Boston before and they've never, you know, they've never really celebrated his return to Boston. But this is a different animal in the finals, right? And, you know, they were giving him the business. I think as I've kind of thought about it, I thought he handled it well in the press postgame

with just like put some perspective on it, so on and so forth. But what honestly I think happened was he had predetermined. that he was going to try to play it so cool. And this is going to sound crazy. And I don't even know if it makes sense to you, but he was trying so hard to be cool and icy under the circumstances that it made him nervous. Do you know what I mean?

And I know that sounds crazy. But like, when you're planning for anything like that and you've got this, here's how it's going to handle, like that promotes nerves. Like when you're just like, yo, I'm just going to let it flow. I don't really like, fuck it. We're just going to do it. then you can be your organic self. But I think he had prepared emotionally and mentally in a way that it might have backfired,

is the best way I could put it. Do you think that he should have had the – because I remember you were in this series when the Kobe, like, I'm going to go back to Philly and cut their hearts out energy? Or like what energy you think would have been required for the first game going into this series? I think that if you're going to take any approach to it other than like just – hey, bro, we're just coming here to hoop. It's the finals. But I've been here before.

I'm just going to get to cooking. I don't think, I think if you're going to take either the, like, yo, you know, I'm going to play this really cool. I'm going to play this really, like, reserved. Or you're going to be like, yo, I'm coming here for hearts. Then you go with the ladder. Yeah, every time. I'm going to come here and be an assassin, bro. I'm going to use this energy to be like, F you, I might throw the finger at somebody in here.

I had an over under. I had an over under that it was going to probably like three middle fingers. Like, we're just, we're going to, look, I'm not going to pretend that I'm not the villain, dog. Like, because that is, that's fake. I am the villain. I know that. You know that. But let me show you what the villain does, though.

Like, and so I think he needs to find that energy. Like, it was even weird because, like, the crowd didn't even know what to do with it, right? Like, they were like, oh, we're coming to boo. But then it was like, you're kind of nice to us now? I don't even think Boston did what the fuck do with it. I didn't even know if they didn't even know what to do with the energy. No, I'm like, I mean, now everyone operates differently, emotionally in situations. So there's no predictor or indicator that would tell you how you react versus me in that hostility.

But I just, I've seen, I've seen Kyrie. And maybe, maybe it's that like the role that he plays on that team is more of the elder statesman. Hey, guys, we're fine. Let's keep some perspective. Like, and that's the space that he operates relative to the Mavericks. But I've seen him operate in FU mode, a set. ass in mode. And that's, that's scary if he can find his bag in that space. So I would say maybe like, let's compartmentalize for this series and say, look, look, especially when we're on the road,

that's who I am. Like at home, I can be chill and whatever. But when we're on this road, guys, somebody else pick up the slack for me and like calm rationality because I'm about to flip into just like whatever, whatever superhero you want to call me. Well, the thing that I, that when it was most needed, I think was in that third quarter, right? Because, you know, Lucas starts cooking. Like, we were in the, we were in the, we were in the, we were in the, there's a, we got to get you out to the Spotify offices, buddy. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a big theater that we were watching the game in. I'll send pictures, uh, when I come back on Sunday for you. But we're watching it. We had Isaiah Blakely, who's from Boston, and he had a, he's a big,

uh, big Celtics fan. He's a producer here at the ringer. And I were, we were in this, we were all in the theater. And when Lucas started cooking, he started sweating. He was like, oh, fuck. When they got it to like eight, when the Mazz got it down to eight,

I thought the Mavs are going to win the game. Just from like, not only just what the Mazz have done all the postseason, just like how much lemon booty to Boston Celtics have in moments like this, historically speaking, right? Yep. But to tie it all the way back around,

what the Mavericks needed was, Kyrie to take that baton and be like, oh, okay, I found my jumper, right? But he was clanking. And that, I think he was the runstopper for his own team in a lot of ways. Because he was just so nice and just so diplomatic and like, I'm happy to be here. I'm here to just be, just to give my, you know, the chyriisms. We all know the chyriisms, the sage, the, you know, the incense. It was all there, right?

they didn't need that at that point. They needed the other bag to take the baton. I think he would have took the baton. I think the Mavs would have a good shot of winning after that third quarter if he goes and finds his game and is more aggressive. Well, to that, I was watching like everyone else and like, oh, oh, here come the Mavs. And I had said it at half. I was like, this is going to be really interesting to see how they come out in the third quarter

because this is classic kind of for both teams through the Celtics lens. that's not always a good place for them to run away and start like that because sometimes they fall asleep at the wheel. It was a normal Celtics game where they go up really big then they're somehow still nervous and then a run happens.

And from the Mavs, like they've had to just keep clawing and keep fighting and keep working and find a way to come back and win games. So like this is familiar territory for both teams. And so when it got to eight, I was waiting for that.

I think it was eight when Joe might have called the timeout. And then right when they came out, great time out by Joe. He's been coaching his ass off. Right when they came out, I said to my wife, like they missed a shot. And it might have been Kyrie. And I said to her, there were probably two minutes left in the quarter.

And I looked over, I bring her in here to tell you, I said, this is going to be 17 or 18 at the end of the quarter. I was like, it's crazy because everybody, but Boston's going to be up by 17 or 18 at the end of the quarter.

And then it was pop, pop, pop, and she looked over and she said, you just called that. And I said, yeah, because he can't get to. Ain't that fire? When you call it, though?

When you call it, you just be like, and it comes true. Yeah, I like me, especially around the wife, right? Like, that's a good look. But no, the point was, and why I called it, was that he just didn't have the help. You could see that there weren't going to be enough shot makers around him, Luca, that is, to, like, help. You can't erase that individually. Your guys got to be with you and they didn't have another guy with him. Well, the thing is, though, and we've seen this throughout the playoffs, and that's the gift and the curse of having two high octane level scores

and building your offense specifically around those types of scores is the ebbs and flows just kind of happen, right? The swings kind of happen. And the second part to that is the Mavericks have a lot of role players to where they follow the lead of what Luca and Kyrie do. So if they see, that was the biggest thing about Kyrie and why he should have the killer instinct. And I'd expect him to have that in game too.

But when he has that killer instinct, do you see the PJ Washington? and start, you know, getting a little looser, right? Start strutting their shit, right? Doing the, doing the, ah, ah. PJ came to play, though. No, no, no, but what I'm saying is, and he was just one example, right? But then you see the Derek Jones and the livelies,

you see them kind of just have a bit more pep in their step when they see their leaders have that. That, I expect more of a swagger from the top two guys of the Mavericks in game, too. There wasn't a swagger. You know, it was more of the swagger. I think Luca tried to get it in some spurts. I think in the first half, he looked at the bench, I think after a three-pointer.

But it was more we're going to, I'm trying to keep us above water type of thing. I'm just trying to keep us at bay type of swagger. They need to just have one of those like, okay, we're coming. We're going to go fucking steal this shit. Yeah, well, you have to, you know, the first step to that is coming out of the gates and punching your opponent in the face before he can punch you in the face. And they got punched in the face. Because the thing is, though, when the soldiers get punched in the face, they don't necessarily get up.

Well, I mean, in any case, whether you have a team like that or not, like, to have that swag, you can't run into the blender that you ran into as a Boston team the way, the way they did last night. Like, Boston had them in that second quarter in a blender. Like, they were just chewing them up. When you emotionally are out of there on that court, no matter if I'm game or not, and I find myself in a five-minute stretch of having no answer for what you're, you're doing, no matter what type of effort I put forth, no matter how many extra closeouts I make,

you're making another pass and that shit's in the basket. It just drains you. Like so, you know, to have swag, you can't be in that spot. So what you have to do is make sure that you're tightened up. Like, Boston can't be getting two and three possessions to start the game on, on Derek, um, Derek White missed threes. Like, you know, he missed a few threes, but then Al Horford's just beating us to the ball and tapping it back out. And now we're getting another look at it. Like, it suggests that they have a better energy level and they're going to beat us to the ball over and over again. They're more locked in.

And, you know, like, that isn't going to, that's not going to end well, like, if that's happening in the first quarter. What did you think of Dallas's young front court in the first game? They were, they were okay. Like, they were, I thought, I thought the physicality guys. got to lively a little bit. Also, I think Jason Kidd should have took him out. After that third or fourth file, he should have took him out. I don't think that, because he got three straight files in like a four-minute span.

Yeah, I think he had a little, like, fry-out moment. Like, you know, those all look different. Like, it doesn't mean you have to have a meltdown and start, like, throwing a fit. But, you know, understanding time and score and how many you have, like, you know, I think, I thought he lost a little bit of composure there. But I could make that argument, too, for Jason Kidd getting him off. I thought they were okay. What happens to them is, you know,

why I always suggest trying to like make that best player beat you is when those auxiliary pieces aren't scoring, you know, they don't have the same effect. Like their ability to defend is great. And their ability to rebound is great. Like when they become excellent is when you add in the 12 to 15 or the 25 to 27,

that you get cumulatively from like lobs and shit like that. And so when Boston's able to negate that, they're just just good. Like, you know what I mean? Like they were good, but they didn't hurt you because, you know, for whatever reason, your defensive strategy kind of negated their ability to affect the game as a complimentary piece offensively. And that leads us right into poor Zingas, which was not only, we were, me and you had a lot of questions.

Howard motherfucking Beck also had questions. I think the whole entire NBA world had questions. I told you he was going to be what? What I tell you he was going to be. I said he was going to be all right. I told you he was going to be good. Yeah, I told you he was going to be good. You know what the fuck.

All right. Good job, Roger. Thanks. Early, real one of the week contestant right there. For sure. Candidate right there. But we can both say, even with you with the predictions, there was some uncertainty, a big uncertainty about how he was going to look, right?

Yeah, I didn't know he was going to look like that. Not like that. motherfucker look like a superhero. Yeah, not like that. Right? Like he, he, 20.6, bores,

three blocks and 21 minutes, bro? Like, how sustainable is that? Not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. So, because he was playing on vibes

and adrenaline, and I know he was, he's probably tired as hell last night. I wasn't at the game, obviously, but I know he was probably cooked. Well, first of all,

that's not sustainable. Not to that, not to that level. I thought he'd be okay. And, um, you know, they are a different team

when he is, in the game defensively. And offensively, I think even I forgot watching last night what he brings them offensively. Like, that's a guy that you can give the ball to when you get one of those switchable, like, situations where we have the advantage in a position around the elbow or around the key where no one can double that. No one can get to that because it's in the middle of the floor. and he can create out of that space

and go over the top and knock down buckets, not to mention stretching the hell out of the floor in the way that he does. Also, I love the way how he embraced physicality, Prazingus, because there were a couple, his first two shots for jumpers, and he basically just elbowed somebody in the fucking, in the stomach twice,

it just got his fade away off. Raj, you would have been pissed. You would have fucking been pissed at that would have. It's tough guarding a dude like that because it's not really he's elbowing you. It's just you happen to be in that area because he's so long. So, like, when he goes up,

your face is basically fouling him. You know what I mean? It's not like he's elbowing you. Your face is just fouling him. And that was an overall thing, I think, for the Boston Celtics in general, right? Like, they embraced physicality

so much better than the Mavericks did. They were like, yo, we're going to beat the fuck out of you. And if you, if the reps, you're going to call it, you're just going to call it. If not, then we're just going to keep

just beating you down to a pole. Well, a few things, right? They challenged every shot for the most, but the amount of shots that, they went after versus the Mavs. And when I mean go after, I mean like seemingly easy dunks or just throw away like, we screwed up on a defensive rotation.

They're just going to get an easy bucket. And here comes the Celtic out of nowhere. Like, nah. Like, and Dallas was good enough. Like Maxi Kleber and those dudes made a couple of tough finishes with Chris Staps or whoever there. But they just made it really difficult around the rim. Like, yo, this isn't going to be a free room.

There was also like, Kyrie was like really scared to go to the rim. Man, he's seven, he's seven three, dude. Like, you saw him, you saw Kyrie, and I made reference to this watching the game, too. Karii out on the wing in his bag, and Chris Staps is seven feet off of him with like a high hand. And, and, and Kyrie won't shoot it. I can't remember who in the theater made reference to like, yo, why can't Kyrie just, like, shoot over him? And I'm like, bro, because fucking Prozingis is 7.8. He's 7.3.

Did you see the block? You see the block that he had on the fade that he normally gets off? So anyway, the physicality, there were a few plays where Chris Staps, in the second half, I was really on heightened awareness watching the way the refs were calling the game, right? Because Dallas just basically said, hey, we dare you to give him the game. And they started just wrestling. Like, Chris Staps would try to run into a screen and roll and, like, lively would have him, like, basically bear hugged and not letting him go where he wanted to go.

And the rest were just letting it go. And I was really interested to watch because right there, that's when I thought they could be in trouble Boston, right? Because if you start crying, if you start whining when the ref shut the whistle off, if you can't act accordingly when the tenor of the game changes,

then that other team is going to have a huge advantage. But Chris Tapp has never started crying. They never really started complaining. You never saw Boston react negatively about it. They just picked their level of physicality up. They were like, oh, it was like liberation. They were like, oh, this is, or. You'll let us start shoving.

So here, I'm just going to shove you in the back and shove you out of bounds. And we got the ball. And so that's when I felt like, okay, like Boston clearly was locked in on this. Like they, even when the whistle changed, they were like, you're just going to be more physical than you. So you guys ratcheted it up. The rest ain't calling it. We're just going to take it up another notch. And then I was like, you saw Jalen Brown catch bodies.

Yeah. Bodies. Yeah, he was coming down the lane. Like he was, yeah. Yeah, they were more locked in, more ready to play a team. But they've been there before. you know, Kyrie has, but who else on that roster has really been in a game like that? I was curious to see how Luca was going to be on this stage, right?

Because, like, obviously he hasn't been on the NBA final stage. But the motherfucker's been a pro since he was 14. This is like, you know, he's been on a... Nothing like an NBA final stage. Sure, sure. Just all to say that he's just been in big games, right? Like, I don't know, right? Like, he's, it's, it would be, I would think it would be an easier adjustment, right?

A normal person, right? For sure. But I was curious to see how he would be on his states. He did well. He did really well. If we broke down the tape, like we don't have enough time. Luca lives in a space where because he's so brilliant offensively, we give him a pass on a lot of other things.

I'll point you to a bunch of possessions where I'm saying, look at that. That's a half effort. Look at that again. That's a half effort. Like, look at that. That's another half effort. And Luca, for the most part, had cleaned a lot of those up. That's part of why Dallas was so good defensively for the,

second half of the season and why the Mavs were, quite frankly, where they are now. But as a team, they didn't have as many of those as they usually do. And Boston, by and large, had way more plays where you couldn't point to half effort. Like full effort, whether we got the ball or not, that's a full effort. I give you a checkmark for that. Dallas didn't have check marks the way you need to to win those games. And that's always what we say on this podcast where the other guys see that effort and they mimic it. From their leader, they always mimic that.

And I don't know if it was effort because Luca was tired and somehow, you know, like I don't know why it was, but it just wasn't there. Roger, I'm going to ask you, both teams, what's the biggest adjustment you need to see from the Mavericks and the biggest adjustments you want to see from the Boston Celtics going into game, too? From the Celtics, let's start. I would say it would be more about sustaining what you're doing offensively in terms of not settling when it could be easy to settle. Like there's zones behind you and you're such gifted, like,

shooters of the ball you could settle. I like that they were playing quicker with the ball, not pounding it 100 times to get in to whatever downhill action. There was some movement, albeit like, you know, it's fractional, but there were some drives. There were some, you know, second drives with a relocation from the first drive, and then we sprayed it out to Drew Holiday and he hit a three. Like, keep that up.

The adjustment I would like to see Jason Tatum make or maybe just be aware of this for Jason Tatum is when he is driving, like when he drove in game one, it felt like a lot of the times it was with the understanding that he was a facilitator, like he was going to ignite the play and spray it and then the swing swing and we'll get it in the corner because they were loaded to him. Like it was a zone behind him. Be aware of them not truly zoning up. and as you're driving, building back out to their man.

So I would tell Jason Tatum to just be aware of that. So in game two, don't just be in the mode of I'm driving to pass, be in the mode of I'm driving to attack this. Kind of like Jalen Brown was doing, even if there's a secondary defender, I'm just going to try to go through his chest, make the rest call a foul. Just be aware of that because number one,

if guys on your team aren't making shots, they need you to be a rim presence and an attacker, as like to score the ball, maybe get to the free throw line, you know, X, Y, and Z. And then number two, just in general, if they're not giving you those shots because they're staying home more, we need you to be driving with the idea that you're going to score the ball. You know, from the Mavericks, you've got to defensively, and I'm just going to talk about defensively here. Contain the ball.

Contain the ball. The Celtics are going to live and die by their three-point attempts, right? That's been them all year for the most part, right? you cannot be a team that can't contain the ball at the point of attack because it's the type of threes they're getting that make that make the three-point shooting sustainable or not sustainable. And by that, I mean, if it's a three where he's got to dribble it five times, shot clock's running out,

and it's one of those sidestep threes from Tatum or Brown, like they're going to make their share of them, but relatively low percentage, right? or Derek or Drew having to create off the bounce and pull a three, those are lower percentage than if we can't control the ball, they've driven it all the way down our gut. The secondary defenders have all had to react and collapse, and now the ball is spraying around our perimeter.

We can't catch up because ball moves faster than player, and now they're sitting on a wide open corner or break three-pointer. Those are sustainable threes. Those are going to get us beat. So we've got to contain the ball a little bit better. Offensively, our guys just, we got to play better. From the Celtic standpoint, I'm looking at the, you know, I'm looking internally in my brain looking at the box scores,

very balanced box score. We talked about Tatum in the beginning. Do you want to see him try to be more aggressive? Do you, what do you want to, what type of game do you want to see from him in game too? Do you want him to, because there were times where he did play well, I think he had 10 boards. He did play well in other facets of the game. but there were some like timid moments being on this stage.

What do you want to see from him in game two specifically? Just stay aggressive. Just stay aggressive. And that doesn't always translate into having 40 and shooting the ball 22 times, 24 times. It doesn't always mean that. Stay aggressive in terms of I'm looking to attack and then be mindful of what they're doing behind your defender. You know, if it is a true zone and they've committed to help, then you do have to be that willing initiator and igniter of the offense.

You've essentially created the play already, even though it's at the beginning of the play by drawing two. Now, we've got to be good enough to find the open shooter and knock that down. But if they don't do that, stay aggressive in a way that you're in there and now you're looking to score the ball. But let's not be a settler and let's stay aggressive. I don't care what Jason Tatum scores. I don't.

Because by the defense that they were playing last night, you're not probably going to score 30 with them flood in the paint and playing a zone behind Jason Tatum. To do that, he's got to shoot 15 or 16 threes. I don't want that. So like just stay aggressive. And if it means we're spraying the ball around, do that. And if it means that you got to go get us some buckets around the rim and some fouls, then do that. One of the things I'd like to see, especially from stars of talented stars of Jason Tatum's caliber, is to see how they just manage the game. I want to see him manage the game. Maybe that's 20.16 assist, you know, something like that, right? Where he, he has an overall impact on the game and where maybe he didn't score from a standpoint, but he

made that imprint. And he, similar to, you know, his idol is Kobe, similar to how Kobe did in that series against you guys, at least in the onset, right, where he's just, he's directing traffic, he's playing in the post. He's, and I know it's a different type of game these days. And when you guys played. But that's kind of the, that's something that I want to see from him as he matures and matriculates, because all the greats have those types of games, right?

The Kobe's, the Kevin Durantz, the LeBron James, right? Where they bend the game to their will. Luca Donchitz does it. Now, has he done it on the stage? No, but I would like to see a bend the game to your will type of game out of Jason Tatum in one of these games.

Yeah, well, I mean, I could see that. And I know that, you know, his performance, performances become polarizing to some degree. So I could see why some people, I think because of the dynamic of the two of those guys, I'm cool if he's not been in the will to his game. But I understand what you're saying. Like what I need to see from the pair of them is an understanding of the situation and what our team needs. And I think, I think that's a, you know, I think more than any other teams, including Dallas,

I think those two share that responsibility. like Dallas it's usually Luca Kairi supports it right with scoring right but like these two play you know so kind of intertwined and seamlessly like that I would say I want to

see him understand the situation kind of like he did last night which is okay well rather than me continue to shoot poorly and continue to beat my head against this brick wall if he's got it going then I can become a hellified

defender, rebounder, you know, igniter of offense. So it's kind of the same thing that you're saying, but it might not result in him being the ultimate closer in terms of buckets. It's going to be interesting to see what happens in game, too. Really quickly before we get out of here, I do want to ask your opinion on something that is not finals related, but has kind of been the secondary story of the finals, which is the Lakers coaching search.

You know, the Lakers is messy. They always find a way to get into the mix and get their names, in the conversation. But we got a report from Adrian Rostrenowski that Dan Hurley was becoming a favorite in the front office.

And he's coming out here to Los Angeles to interview for the Lakers job. And this is coming on the heels of pretty much everybody named Mama just thinking that J.J. Reddick is going to be the Lakers coach. And just so many reports that

it's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's prime to happen. Is this a good move for Dan Hurley to do? Or is he, should he just like uses the leverage to get a bag and go back to Yukon? Well, I mean, NewCon can't give him the same bag that the Lakers can give him. So I think all of that, you know, depends on, on the difference in the bags to a certain degree. And then what his goals are. Like, I don't know what Dan Hurley's goal. I have to imagine you've won a couple natties. He has won a couple, right? Yeah, he's a couple of natties like you go from three straight yeah like i would imagine like most people are enticed by the opportunity to to go up there and see if you can do it at the nba level right

like there are levels to all of that and so i can't speak to what dan hurley's goals are and and what what he ultimately wants as a job itself or as a as a person in the seat i think he would be a good fit provided you know he understands the differences between college in pros. I think he's a great basketball mine. I think he's a communicator from the from the interviews. I've seen him do in regards to the way he recruits players at the high school level to play in college. I think he puts stock in the right things that create good culture and foundation. So I like him. There are some differences between pro and college though that that you know you'd have to acknowledge and be willing to work out. Like you're not just going to motherfucker everybody and be

yelling and screaming in the pro game at grown men with with 17 year old kids like with kids and 16 year old kids like you ain't going to be doing that unless unless like and this is where the communication and and and relationship side comes into play unless you fostered the type of relationship with that dude and you are invested in a way that that guy knows um that you care about him you have his best interest at heart and you guys are in this together and he allows you the kind of latitude to bark at him like that. Because guys will, provided you have the relationship in place that they feel that they feel secure enough that you can do that, right?

So you have to earn that. That position becomes less of a, you know, college coaches groom. They're there to get you better. They're there to, you know, coaches telling me the other day. Like, you know, we're not going to, we want to help Dia not only become a great player, but continue him on the path of becoming a great. young man, right? Like, that's not the job in the NBA.

The job of an NBA coach is to help this already... That's it. To help this great player get what he ultimately wants, what's just the championship. You ain't making him better. Like, nobody's buying into your regimen of helping me become a better man. And my, my fucker, how can we win? Straight like that. I just don't know if, like, the Lakers, and we saw this with Darwin Ham, I don't think the

Lakers are, as presently constructed, the right opportunity for a first time coach. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. Like, I hear you. He'd be, if you gave me a perfect world for him, it would be with a young team with younger players that, that. Like Portland or somebody?

Like, I'm just throwing that out there. I don't know, like, just the team dynamic, but just like a team like that. Yeah, because they're used to that. Those guys are closer to being coached by someone like you than LeBron and them who have been collaborators with head coaches. And in some instances, bosses of head coaches, if we're keeping it real, like your style probably translates a little better early on to kids like that. It's going to be something. That was a little starter pack of that. We'll see what happens throughout the weekend and what happens. And we'll talk to Howard motherfucking back about that.

All right. Let's get to a little segment we like to call Rowan of the week. I'm going to give you the first Rowan because I am looking up stats for my Rowan. So you can go ahead. All right. Well, I'm going to steal it right for Monday. because this is an easy one. One, Chris Stapps, poor Zingis, you know, I thought he'd be okay. I patted myself on the back earlier in the episode, but I didn't know he was going to be like that.

And, you know, I was happy for him. You know, I heard a lot of people talking about the journey that it's taken for him to get here. Like, he was the unicorn not that long ago and injuries and some hard times in terms of trying to make that come to fruition. But seeing him last night, a smile on his face, the post-game interview where, you know, the joy was coming through

the screen at me for how happy he was. Like, that was pretty cool. So, real one of a week. Chris Stavs. You didn't steal it from under me. You think you know me, but you have no idea, sir. I'm going to give it to one Asia motherfucking Wilson. I'll hear balling.

She had 36, 12, and six steals against the Dallas wings, bro. Let me show you these stats for the game. So, I mean, for her season thus far. 27.9 points a game. 12.4 rebounds a game. She's killing it. I was just going to say she's fucking killing it. And I was trying to figure out my ruling of the week. And I saw somebody's story just what the fuck she's doing.

And they were like her last 10 games or whatever. It was like 3515, 3215, 2815, book it. And the Aces are primed to be one of the Great W dynasties since the Houston Comets way back when. So give it to Asia Wilson Rowan of the week. You can go back in the Real Ones archives to see the Asia Wilson interview back in the day.

A long time, a friend of the show, kind of sort of in a real way. So tap in. We will see you guys on Monday with Howard motherfucking Beck live from Boston after game two. We're not fucking around. It is Real Ones.

Ah, all the shits. Talk to you Monday. Bye. Let's be 21 years and older, 18 years and older in D.C. and President in select states, Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. The only problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit Fandul.com, backslash, R.G, and Colorado, D.C., Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont. Call 1-800 next step or text next step to 533-44-2 in Arizona. 8-88-889-9-7-77 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut,

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