The Ringer NBA Show - The Celtics’ Spoiler Potential, CP3’s L.A. Exit, Giannis Suitors, and More, With Chris Ryan | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

No J. Kyle Mann today, but Justin and Rob are joined by Chris Ryan for another edition of Name That Take! First, however, the guys discuss the news that recently broke about Chris Paul being sent home by the Clippers. They share their thoughts about the decision and what’s next for Paul in his final season. Then they play Name that Take!, where Rob and Chris are tasked with guessing Justin’s take about a certain team or player in as few hints as possible. (00:00) Intro(01:54) Chris Paul news(14:13) Boston Celtics(29:28) Giannis Antetokounmpo(47:56) Oklahoma City Thunder(58:31) Chicago Bulls Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob MahoneyGuest: Chris RyanProducers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, Victoria Valencia, and Jon JonesThe Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available.Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, no Kyle this week. So we brought in the only guy who grinds more NBA tape. That's Chris Ryan. That's right. Yeah, mostly college for me now. I've been too busy watching Cameron Boozer.

You do pick a college guy every year as like your guy that you want to. Yeah, Bennett McAtherin famously. I think, you know, the jury still happens. Do you haven't done any early scouting? No. I'm always looking for the next Clee Anthony Early. That's my draft analysis, the lens in which I look for the NCA. Speaking of, I don't think we even shouted out that Cle Anthony Early somehow made it into a jeopardy clue on this podcast, which just huge news in our part of the world.

It was a whole category. That's right. He presented it. Yes. That's crazy. Oh, was he? He did like the little video. I believe so.

That's incredible. What a legend. The Ringer Ambia show is presented by Fandle. Fandall's got it all. Sam game parlayes, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the Fandle app or head to fandle.com slash ringer MBA to get started. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming.

Gambling problem, call 1-800-G-G-G-Hobler or visit RG-Hallep.com. Call 1-888-889-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. it. We have to talk about a legend at the top of this podcast. We're going to get into a whole another bit. We're going to do name that take again, despite all evidence to the contrary, but I figure Chris might be able to help us out with that one. But before we recorded this podcast, Chris Paul got sent home. And I guess the question is forever. I don't know. So basically the way this worked out was late last night at 2.40 a.m. The Instagrams that he is being sent home, added a little piece emoji on top of there.

And then we got the news shortly after that, that the Clippers just straight up released him. I guess Chris, as a fellow guy who went to L.A. and made his career... Fellow agent point guard. Is that what you're trying to say? Yeah, exactly. How do you feel about this news, first and foremost?

Very strange story. I mean, obviously, I think reporting will bear out, like, what actually happened and whether this was a locker room situation or a financial situation or what. Like, I was trying to piece together. He apparently put up, like, a kind of sentimental post a couple of weeks ago and then since that had not put

spoken to the media he seems like a strange scapegoat for whatever is wrong with the clippers this year but I can also imagine let's just say that this is a zombie clippers year and they're kind of like going through the motions this was also supposed to be his farewell

and perhaps he wanted to go out on a higher note than this but yeah very very strange story and it's never boring in Englewood. Yeah, maybe we're going to hear the behind the scene stuff and we're going to find out he was throwing soup at the practice facility and deserved to be sent home.

But based on what we know now, this is really bizarre. And just like Bush League treatment for one of the greatest players of all time. That is the part that I think is really sticking with people is the whole point was him coming back for one last ride with the Clippers. And yes, things are going disastrously. We can talk about all the ways that's happening if you want. but why why is Chris Paul the guy who's being sent home?

Like Lawrence Frank is putting out this statement that like we're not blaming Chris Paul for how badly we're playing. I don't see anybody else being sent home here. So like what is it? What exactly is happening? Ironically enough, Chris Paul's farewell tour might have been the only positive piece of PR that they would get this entire season. Considering the way it started in preseason and the way it's kind of unfolded since. Maybe outside of like multiple cobies that you've never heard of before getting NBA minutes for this team. but there really wasn't much to latch on to.

So I'm surprised they wouldn't even just like allow him to sit on the bench because what are their means for getting any quality rotation minutes outside of that? They could just dig through the crates of 10 days and whatnot. But like can you just have Chris hang around and at the very least like be an ambassador for the team? That's why it's so weird to me. Well, it's one of the first stops on his sort of the twilight of his career where he hasn't kind of improved the team. Right? I mean, I think that in Phoenix and Oklahoma City,

I think he was instrumental in sort of being a mentor to Shay. And it's strange that he is ending his career in a much different way than the last few stops. That being said, he has not been retained by several of his last few teams. And maybe he just has sharp elbows. I don't really know, but I agree with you guys. It doesn't seem like Chris Paul is the problem here. Yeah.

And if lots of things are going poorly, and they are going poorly, Chris Paul isn't necessarily the voice you want around. Like he's great at taking teams that are in the middle, as you said, Chris, and getting them organized, getting them on point, helping young players along.

If you're 5 and 16 and Chris Paul is playing 15 minutes a game, and like he is not going to stop talking. He's not going to stop being in guys' ear. Like, I can see how that would be grading. I just don't see how it would be grading to the point of sending an all-time point guard home for the sake of it. We should also mention that like he was only getting 15 minutes the game, but probably did not deserve those 15.

He looked absolutely washed. It was kind of a tough watch at this point. Like, Rob, do you think, like, even he could latch on to a different team? Like, he could play 10 minutes for the Lakers or any sort of, like, team actual aspirations. Yeah. Yeah, I think he'll still end up somewhere to the extent that that's, like, a possibility for him.

Like, this kind of can't beat the end. I think for narrative reasons, that would be such a huge bummer, but also basketball all reasons. I do think that Chris Paul still has a lot to offer. What he is at this stage is kind of emblematic of where the Clippers were, which is like this old, slow, stagnant kind of team. And so I think he needs a different energy around him and a different kind of roster around him to make the best use of, you know, that organizational instinct and his playmaking, which he still has. Like, there's still some stuff there that is useful to an NBA team. It just wasn't useful to a Clippers team that was down like five guys with the rotation and complete disarray. And as you

alluded to, Justin, like a weird combination of all of these veterans who aren't able to put together a style of play that makes sense. And then all this young talent that they're not having to play because of their terrible circumstances. Do you think that there were any other suitors for him this summer? Because I know he chose L.A. to be closer to his family. And that's been kind of something that's been in the back of his head for the last couple of years is not wanting to be too far from California and from L.A. in the first place. But I don't know. I don't know. We have to write a better ending for this story for him. And I was like, every, every idea I came up with kind of had a tragic element to it where

I'm like, Charlotte, like, no. Well, that is kind of like the tradeoff there. I do wonder if he was getting other offers. It was probably to be the Garrett Temple, the wise sage at the end of the bench, not playing minutes for a certain team. Now, for Charlotte or for Indiana or something like that, he would probably play minutes because they need any minutes they can get. Those teams are both severely injured all the time this season.

But I think his path would be best suited to conclude where he was best used as an NBA player, which was rearing younger players and kind of galvanizing and organizing and bringing structure to like young talent. And so I would hope that he ends up

on a team like that where he could play some, but ultimately maybe phase into more of like a coaching role or something coached on the floor. It's too bad. It probably it probably would have been cool if if last season had been his final season. You know, play with Wembe and in San Antonio. Pop retires, Chris retires.

It kind of has a little bit of like a, I mean, for our purposes of like, of packaging this, that's that, that would be the best. But I really hope that this is not how it goes. I mean, I was trying to like find a corollary to a legendary Hall of Fame NBA player who's last, last action in the NBA ended like this. and it's pretty hard to find. It's probably going to be more of the Elijah one on the Raptors, Patrick Ewing on the magic, unfortunately.

Right. But I think what makes this case different is, in theory, what should have insulated and protected Chris from, you know, that kind of like Coachella Jersey treatment of, like, the random team you ended up in on at the end of your career is like all the history here, right? Like, this was supposed to be the homecoming. This was supposed to be a franchise that appreciated and was honoring what he was doing. The bobbleheads have already been made, my guys.

Like, I don't know what we're trying to undo here by saying. and Chris Paul home. Never ends the way you wanted to. I think that's kind of the moral here. I look forward to DeMarcus cousin's comments on Lawrence Frank from this week. I didn't know about that. And you brought that to our attention. He was basically blaming Frank for all of the calamity that is the Clippers.

Yeah. I mean, I honestly, like, I don't know anything about like the Clippers front office situation. I know it's widely respected across the league to the extent that even Frank people from the Lawrence Frank tree get other GM jobs and move out across the league. being from the Clippers organization is seen as like a badge of honor. And I completely understand why they've remained competitive for most of my professional career like covering the league in the last 12 years or whatever. But he has made some some quixotic moves.

And, you know, it is not caught up to him. So we'll see how this one works out. Yeah, I think the draft record was pretty spotty. Pretty spotty. And then the latest round of those quixotic moves. moves like yeah, Chris Paul is going home. Brad Beale is out for the season. Derek Jones, like, Derek Jones has been really good for them, but is out for a month

or so. Like, John Collins has been like real mixed results with this team so far. Letting go of Norm Powell and thinking your team could survive that has been a disaster, maybe one of the biggest in this tenure of the Clippers. So there's just like a lot of stuff happening. I think Jay also was a tough one. You know, that turned out to be pretty bad. We simply cannot say enough on this podcast that for as miserable as the Clippers are,

they're about to hand over a top five pick to the Oklahoma City Thunder. So let's just say that again, every podcast until it sticks. We're definitely going to get to that on this podcast. As we're recording, the Shams actually just dropped something that he was clashing with the leadership structure there. Specifically, Ty Lou was not on speaking terms with Paul for several weeks. And so not surprising. Honestly, another scalp on Paul's wall. Guys, let's just all get together and play cards and work this out.

Bure. Did they still play Buree on planes? It's a great question. What is the gambling game of choice these days? maybe we need to start doing that when we're taking our prior jets. All right, well, we wish Chris Paul well. We hope he ends up somewhere in this league.

I just don't want him to go out this way. Well, J.V., in the spirit of name that take, can I preemptively guess your Chris Paul-related take? I guess so. If you replaced half of your coworkers with 22-year-olds, you would also want to be sent home. That's true. I have been known to be a bit domineering.

30 a.m. Justin gets kicked out of WordPress. We thank Justin for all his hard work. My slack doesn't work all of a sudden. Wouldn't surprise me, honestly. All right, name that take. Part two. We tried this once with Kyle. Bringing Chris, I would say you guys... I'm way more of a takesman than I am a tape man, so I'm interested in this.

Well, also, I would say, seeing that the whole thing is based on my take, like trying to guess my opinion on it, which is ultimately the right opinion, And you guys probably have more history with that than probably anybody that I work with these days. And so you're best suited for the exercise. I actually have a board game here that I played during Thanksgiving called first to worst. And you have to rank the person's preferences of like five cards they get laid out. So it's like avocado figure skating, you know, whatever. It's like these ideas. And you're like, oh, Justin would rank this first, this second, this third.

so we're essentially playing first to worst here. I like to think that you and I are like machine learning models for Justin's takes. We've just absorbed all the data over basically decades at this point. And we're ready to regurgitate. This is actually a Gemini bought. Rob, do you want to guess my take on avocados? You're anti. Oh, he's pro.

You're pro? Mostly pro. Justin's such like a basic bee when it comes to like, I think he likes coffee shops and toast. You know? He likes avocado toast, but doesn't like being the guy who likes avocado toast. Like, you have to incorporate the level of self-loathing that is at the heart of every Justin take. So that's what makes it complicated. Rob, you just named that take.

Congratulations. You just named that personality. All right. So I have down here four subjects. These are Name That Toon Rules. And so if you've never watched Name That Tomb, basically there are five clues here rather than musical notes, which they would typically give in name that. tune. You guys are going to go wager back and forth and how many clues you can name that take. Chris will start the bidding and say, five being the maximum, say, oh, I could do it in five.

Rob will be like, oh, I could do it in four. Or you could be bold about it and say, well, I could actually do it in three. And at some point, someone, you know you have strongly held opinions about a certain team or player. We might get gutsy and say, I can do it in one or two. Yeah, it's a wager. And then someone has to throw down the gaunt and ultimately say, I like name that take. Chris, name that take. And then you have to guess it. And we go from there. Does that make any sense? Okay. I think so. Yeah. As I say these rules out loud, I realize how ridiculous it is. I might point to Rob on the first one just to see how I want to do it. But we, that's okay. I learn by doing. Okay. Rob, do you want to start the bidding? The subject I should

mention for number one is the Boston Celtics. So I think I can name Justin's Boston Celtics related take in three clues. That's bold. Name that take, Rob. Okay. Let's see what we got. Does it matter if I don't bid against him? No.

No. It's your wager. All right. Clue number one for the subject, Boston Celtics. Number one, heart of a champion. Okay.

Number two, the playoffs. Yep, obviously. And number three, Jason Tatum's recovery timeline. Rob, can you name that take? The Justin Varyer take about the Boston Celtics is that, is it the Celtics could win the East or will win the East once Jason Tatum comes back? This is ultimately, I thought you would at least at minimum come in with like Celtics could upset someone in the first round without Jason Tatum.

But with Jason Tatum, this is the official take. If Jason Tatum returns the season, the Celtics will win the East. That is the Justin Verier take. You were almost there, but you psyched yourself out thinking that I would go too bold. I actually went for the more modest one to start us off. The take is, I've seen the Lord and Jason Tatum's X-rays, and the Celtics will play spoiler to someone in this year's playoffs. I definitely think that could be the case,

because if I'm the guys at the top of this conference, with the exception, I mean, obviously, like, it's too early to even talk about this. But those 8, 9, 10 teams, they got some seasoning. Philly, Milwaukee, Boston, like, in and around there. Like, I don't really want to play them in the first round. I mean, this is the problem with the East at this point. Who do I feel confident about based on a 20-game sample? I would say maybe two teams, like Detroit and the Knicks on the right night,

and the Celtics just beat them last night on national TV. And Jordan Walls is going up. All these, like, role players have worked, Rob. And Jamlin Brown has been awesome this year at higher volume. And the muscle memory from the title core, which is to a large degree, we take a lot of threes and we make some, not as many as we used to, I think just works, especially in a knockout playoff format. Well, some of that is muscle memory, right?

Like some of that is your Jalen Browns and your Derek whites. And then some of it is all of those new guys who are filling roles and are kind of erratic. And I don't know that you can bank on the Jordan Walsh game every game, but him hitting huge buckets. Josh might not like queuing up big runs. That stuff's been really important to them. And ultimately is what allows all of these like up and down variables on their team to work. Like Jalen Brown has gone from like the. energy burst score to the fucking metronome of this team.

Like, he's just become one of the most reliable creators and scorers in the entire league. He's having, like, an Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell-esque level of production. And around him, everyone else can kind of come and go. And if you're shooting enough threes and you're getting enough offensive rebounds, like, the Celtics don't just, like, shoot more threes than you anymore. They just get more shots than you. And if you have all of that going for you, I think you're pretty well positioned to play spoiler to somebody.

Yeah, I thought last night, you just, just as like a small window into the team, I was impressed by the fact that it didn't feel like they had kind of, um, they had kind of turned over the entire offense to Jalen and gotten out of the way. Like there was still some ball movement. There was still the hunting for the open three rather than just the right player or the pecking order that they may have on the guys on the court.

And I thought it gave New York some problems. I also thought obviously like a, as Justin pointed out, a coast to coast game, um, uh, on national television. perhaps a little more pep in the step to display the garden's wares.

But yeah, I mean, I think that the role players that will keep them afloat, certainly. I am highly dubious about this. Like, Jason Tatum is the first man on the moon with this Achilles injury and will be back this season and be effective. I just personally have not seen that in my lifetime

watching sports. KD is the closest thing I've seen to somebody coming back and being really effective, but he took that full year, right? Like, take the year. I don't know why he's not taking the year. Like, the Thunder might not lose again. It was in March.

And so even if he comes back around the trade deadline, we're way ahead of schedule where we typically are with these sort of things. I just don't think he should do it. It is scary. I will say if he's capable of doing so, the one worry I would have in terms of just like a long, deep run in the playoffs is right now the offense is absolutely blistering. I think they're fourth in the NBA, which is pretty remarkable considering Brown's not the most efficient guy, but I do feel like he's playing looser. and I do think having more reps has allowed him to play more free, which is nice. It's almost like kind of a Franz Wagner, Sans Paulo thing,

where it's just like he doesn't have to think is hard, and you can kind of almost see it on the court, but his bruising style needs more reps, and so the volume actually plays into his strength in that regard. But in the playoff series, I do wonder if you're putting Tatum out there, you don't need him to juice the offense, because the offense has been pretty good. Defensively, they've been suspect,

and I think putting Peyton Pritcher is going to target in the playoff series. plus Tatum, who has to probably watch his movements or his minutes, that might be a little too much, Rob. Yeah, I will say this part. Like, this version of Jalen Brown makes the Jason Tatum road back easier, right? It buys him more time because the Celtics are just going to be better in the interim. Also, theoretically, when Tatum does get back on the court, he could take things a little bit slower if Brown is continuing to produce and create in this way.

Like, there's just another kind of load-bearing pillar in a different capacity than what they were getting out of Jalen Brown before. that stuff is really important. Jason Tatum should chill for as long as he can possibly chill. It's not just Peyton Pritchard getting targeted. Part of what makes Jason Tatum Jason Tatum is that he can guard fives now and again.

He can switch into all these different scenarios. He's doing like really explosive lateral movement to be the best version of the player that he is and one of the best players in the world. You're not getting that for a little while and you shouldn't expect to get that for a little while. And so rather than bring back, I don't know, 60, 65% Jason Tatum who's like actively conscious of his like Achilles at all times.

Just let's just all relax a little bit and let this ride go as far as it can. Because I have to say a Celtics team that is unburdened by expectations has actually been a really fun watch. And also just has been really competitive with almost everyone they've played against. So it's not the Celtics as spoilers. I think as Chris alluded to, there are going to be a lot of teams in this category. I wonder if the ease ultimately settles kind of how it is right now where maybe there's one or two dominant teams that we expect to make the finals. But other than that, maybe the first round is just a coin flip where we're getting just a very good series.

Maybe something closer to 2021 where the Hawks made it all the way to these finals. I remember that playoffs. Purely because of the Hawks, right? How they got there. Yeah. Yes. Right. Is there any team, Chris, that you like amongst the mix of the middling teams?

I guess the Sixers would be there. you could throw the hawks in there. I imagine the magic and calves would probably sort themselves out by that point. I would have to imagine. I mean, Cavs certainly, uh,

would you want to talk about the Sixers? I'm happy to do so. I mean, um, it's inevitable that I was going to say Sixers in this case. I think that they're a little bit more up and down. And obviously when the season started and for Sixers fans at least, I think the Embed thing is happening in a little bit of a bubble,

which is nice. Last season and previous seasons, it was kind of like an edge of your seat. Will he or won't he play tonight? Still, the mystery of why they choose to run and beat as a day-to-day endeavor rather than he's out for six weeks, we'll let you know in mid-December or in January what's going on with him. Still confuses me, I don't know whether it's his medical team, Sixers medical team, him, the PR, whatever it is. But all that being said, they now have like the most exciting, delightful

back court in the NBA with this this foreheaded monster that they've got going and mccain has had a couple of really nice games including uh last night i believe um and i think max he's an all NBA player and it's kind of obvious that he has the keys to the franchise now and that everybody is kind of keying off of him whether or not like the amount of minutes he's playing uh so early in the season is sustainable and the amount of offensive creation that he's responsible for is sustainable out this entire season, especially given what's been going on with most heavy usage players this year, seemingly, it remains to be seen. But I find this to be a really, really, really easy team to cheer for. So beyond personal, regional bias, like, I think the Sixers are dangerous

and different, which is my favorite part about them. They are a much different looking team this year. They, I mean, they needed that just in the worst way. Just a different energy, a different momentum, as you said, Chris, like putting so much of their stock behind Maxi with how well he's played, it's felt refreshing to watch the team again, which is really nice. We should say, as far as the Embeddead part, they also just got dinged $100,000 for this is what I'm saying. It's like they just, this is a straight. I don't know whether this, where this comes from, but they have, they are the, the, the, always in the, the eye of the NBA when it comes to how they're running Embed reporting. For sure. See him and Maxie at the podium, I believe it was last

night where Embed referred to Maxie as the face of the franchise with Maxie right. It's fully happening. Yeah. And he's like, I feel bad because I want to be out there for him. But like even Embed seems a little bit more upbeat than he has in maybe the last two seasons. I think he's like, I think he just wants to be there for for Maxi. I think everybody is kind of like this is this is his franchise now.

This is he's the face of the franchise. He's one of the most popular athletes in Philly, I think. and I don't really know how to solve this. You know, the solutions would be trading Embed to a team he doesn't want to go to. And it just seems unfair after what, like, he's meant to the franchise to send him to Sacramento or something like that. You know what I mean?

Like, I don't know, and I don't know whether that even makes sense, because what if he is decently healthy in a first round playoff game? Wouldn't you want Joelle Embedde out there with you? So it's a really tough situation. It's crazy that Paul George has now just become the furniture because Embedd, like when he does play, at the very least he makes such an outsized impact. Like the numbers are there and he's just a large person

that it's impossible to ignore. But by and large, there are stretches where I just forget Paul's out there and he's just not his front and center. I think he's playing much more functionally than Embed. Like when Embedd's on the floor, I feel like there's some deference to him. There's like, we have to find Embed, and Bid's going to dribble for a few seconds here

and try and figure something out. PG is actually playing within the offense and seems completely delighted by being a role player. Yeah. Now, it's also funny, he's like 30, what, four, I think? Yeah. Getting up there for sure. He's acting like he's like, like just got back from World War II. Like, he's like, I was in Normandy.

So he's just like, I'm so old. So it's really cool to be energized by by Maxie and Edgecombe and McCain and Grimes and stuff. But, you know, he's actually playing pretty efficiently, I find it so far. and these minutes limits are kind of arbitrary to me but I think he can function pretty well within the offense and can be pretty useful. Completely.

And there is a weird bargain, you know? You can't argue with the price. I do think there's a weird thing with Paul George where it's like his kind of connectivity and playmaking and sort of just like that facility on the wing was super useful to the Joelle and Bede version of this team. And it's still useful to basically any team

including this one. But there are times where the explosiveness and the dynamism of the young Sixers feels like it's in a totally different universe than whatever it is that Paul George is doing. Not like Joel Embed is fully his own guy and almost a separate team when he's on the floor. Paul George just feels like an accessory to all of this incredibly kinetic stuff that's happening from some of like the fastest players in the league, frankly, and some incredible shooters. And it's all moving really quickly in a way that Paul can facilitate and help. but he is a bit of a relic as far as like what this team used to be

and what his intention was supposed to be with it. As long as they can maintain that electricity that largely stems from Maxi, but also filters down from Edgecom and some of the younger guys. Like I think they're going to be a tough out in the playoffs because if we're, as we're saying, like it's going to be more of a series based on matchups or what team is clicking at the right time. I do wonder if that's the sort of advantage that can win you a playoff series. It probably won't be some of the better teams.

Like, Maxi is not, if not a first team all NBA guy, probably second team. I think they have to manage the minutes because it's a lot for a smaller dynamic player. And as we've seen, as we've seen, those are the guys that have been befallen by these ligament injuries. And so we have to worry about that pretty much constantly in the NBA at this point. But I think they got something. And that's more than they had a couple months ago. And with Maxi, too, like, although he has been kind of coming along for a while now, it's easy to forget. he's already had four playoff runs under his belt.

This isn't just like a young buck who's going to be tested for the first time. He's been awesome basically every time he's been in the postseason. So you put him in playing games that matter or playoff games that matter. I just fully trust him to be that guy at this point. And that in itself is an incredible development for the Sixers, basically no matter what else happens this season. But if not the Sixers or the Celtics, Rob, is there one team you like in this mix is sort of like the Dark Horse Denise?

A Dark Horse to what? basically be a spoiler. Yeah. To maybe make a second round or if things go right, they push for these finals. I think if the Hawks are in that group, they deserve mention as far as that goes. With or without Trey, though. Well, we'll get to that because I think they have some fascinating trade possibilities on the board potentially. But I think either one, like I think the Trey version of the Hawks, I still kind of believe in.

And without him, we've already seen kind of what they can do and be for better or worse. otherwise, like, it's just really hard to bet on the bucks right now, given Janus's come and go, it seems, like impressions of the team. All conjecture, but, you know, someone's social media means a lot. Yeah. Why don't we take a quick break and then get to Janus directly? This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move fast, and Amazon Prime keeps you in control with fast and free delivery.

We've all been there. Family plans are fluid. somebody's not coming. Suddenly they are coming and you're excited about it. You want to get them a gift. So you hop on Amazon Prime. Line that up with their interests. And it's easy to do because Amazon has everything. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need that last minute gift or holiday essential. It's on Prime. Head to amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. All right. Topic number two, Janis and Teddekumpo. Who wants to start the bidding here. Chris, maybe, because I think I can do it two.

Okay, yeah, Chris named that take because I, I don't know where Justin's going with, Janus. Uh, all right, Chris, the topic is Janus. Uh, you have two clues here. First clue in all in midseason trade. Pretty expected, right? Uh, and number two, Hardo, culture, fit. Chris, name that take. You think he should be traded at the heat. That is correct. Uh, The take is the new CBA has muddled in-season trade opportunities, so that he should use that to their advantage and go all in on Janus. And now if you look at the board, it is near impossible to come up with an appropriate suitor for Janus for an in-season trade, which seems unlikely overall just because for a variety of reasons. We'll talk about whether or not he's actually kind of given up on Milwaukee versus what people are reading into this. but for a lot of these teams,

they need the depth to trudge through a regular season or just it's impossible to do so because of the new CBA. I think the team who can think long term, who doesn't have as much to lose in the immediate, would be best suited to swing an in-season trade. That's the heat. We're pragmatic enough to completely revamp their offense and do what they're doing now.

I think they're just as creative and pragmatic in order to flip it over for a star power because they'll ultimately need that anyway. And so I would say for the heat, try to pair Janus with Bam and then figure it out later. Can I ask you about the, like the present tense part of that?

Because you're saying that they don't have a lot to give up. They're third place in the Eastern Conference right now. Yeah, but everyone's third place in the Eastern. Yeah, I was wondering, whether you guys felt like Toronto and Miami was like, is there a gravitational thing going to happen with those guys?

Were they going to come back down to Earth at all? I think it feels very possible. Yeah. I like what they've done with the new offense. It's a fun new wrinkle to explore. I do worry, as we saw with Memphis last year, if they're going to be diminishing returns as the season goes along,

as superstars want their pick and roles in order to do what they do best when it comes to just being more pragmatic about plush time possessions. But overall, I don't know what if what they've built necessarily equates to long-term success. And as we've seen, the heat's goal is ultimately just to get star power in the building. And so the tradeoff to me makes sense in that regard. And so if you can get Miami to give up the rosier expiring, contract, which all of a sudden becomes one of the biggest trade trips in the MIA, thanks to all the gambling sites.

All the young guys where Yakashonas, whichever young guys you want, plus picks, it's not the best package you'll probably get, but like you can get them to give up probably more than someone else in the middle of the season. Janus is under contract for how much longer? I believe two seasons. I believe it's two. Personally, when you first said all in midseason trade. Justin, the first thing that came into my mind and the one that I was playing around with on the trade machine and just thinking about culturally, and I know we'll be talking about this team later down the line, so I don't want to step on it, but it was the Thunder.

And the idea of doing the KD trade early, you know, basically putting together the Death Star and then putting together another Death Star. It's crazy that the Thunder don't need Janus, you know, which is basically the case. but in terms of draft capital and then also saying all right take these three guys off our bench but to your point like this this would destroy one of the thunder's great strengths which is their depth

that the thunder could sustain a shay hamstring injury absence or they could sustain chat being out or they could sustain as they already have Jaylen Williams being out so if you decimate that or at least significantly weak in it

by trading for Janus. And then you have to basically bring him in and make one of the biggest superstars in the NBA part of like the flattened democracy of the thunder. It's kind of, it would be a really interesting experiment. I think it's happening way too early. I don't think they need to do that. I think that they'll probably handle it win the NBA title this year. They got a lot going on already.

But it's, it's going to be nuts that they're going to do that or that they could do that and still have all of this stuff in their war chest. I think the crux of that is terrifying and should be terrifying to anybody in the league, which is whether we're talking about Janus or any other star, I think the Thunder have what everything they need to trade for, basically anyone in the league who is not Victor Webenyama or Nicola Yolkits or maybe Luca. Like that might be the only class of player. They're untouchables for many reasons.

But like if Sam Pressy just really decides one day that he wants to trade for Tyrese, Like, I honestly think they might be able to pull it off. Like, sorry. I don't mean to kill you on this podcast, Chris, but like, that is within the power of the thunder to do. And yet the restraint in not doing it is also kind of the power at itself. Like they are so far ahead of everyone else. They really don't need Yonis. They really don't need any trade like that.

The one thing they don't have is a backup big man who plays like a big man. And to the point where like Dagnall kind of alluded to that before yesterday's game where it's just like, oh, well, we only have stretched bigs after Hartenstein, and it would be pretty hilarious if they went out and got Janus in order to fill that void. To play backup. To play backup. One thing I do, one thing I do. Janus gets relegated to being the finassus of the thunder.

Well, that's actually a good point, though, because as we saw with his pairing with Dane, it seems like he's pretty particular about the way he wants to play, and the bucks doubled down in that regard, and just basically gave him a team that fits his preferences beyond anything else, right? I do wonder, can Janus climb on to a situation?

Like, I think the Lakers will be a popular destination just because their fans are just psychotic. Well, also justified by current events, you know? Like, if you get Luke on your team out of thin air, who are you to dream in Photoshop? Or LeBron, not like doing a

third quarter play because he's just hanging out with the sun's bench the other night? That was wild. But would Janus want to compare with... I can't believe that happened, but I'm just kind of like going along. Um, well, Janus want to pair with the Luca, who is going to obviously require a lot of reps on the ball. If they keep Reeves in that situation, I doubt that they would be able to, although I managed to do it before with Luca. Um, like, that's more reps that he's not getting.

So I, for the heat, I also wonder he could be the guy on the ball. And you're playing with Bam, who has shown that he has enough stretch at this point where I wonder if you could work out that as a front core hero. If you keep him like, there's the guts of a good team that honestly, Rob is more reminiscent to Yon at his best with the bucks, where it's like, it's Janus and two good players in a chance, and he seems to get up for that more than anything else. I mean, he's great at it. He's one of the great floor raisers in the league. Like, a team with Janus, even this version of the bucks can just only be so bad.

Like, they're just going to be competent and largely fairly successful over the course of 82 games if he's healthy. This is where I would love to get the Eric Spolstra truth serum of like, you've revamped this offense. Is it just a coping mechanism? Like, is this just what you do when you do? don't have the guy. And if you brought Janus on the team, we throw out all of this cute movement and pace and we're just going to play Janus basketball and probably, you know, compete in

the Easter conference with that. Or is this the kind of thing that is actually meaningful to him in this organization in a way we're like, yeah, we actually do value this and want to play this way because Janus does not really operate within that kind of pace and speed, like an incredible open court player, but is not the fastest decision maker in the world in that kind of like democratic offense sort of way. So you could reinvent the heat on the fly. And I wonder with this stuff, too, how much they took lessons from over indexing on the past like cute story versions of the Miami heat that they then like paid through the teeth to

keep Dionne Waiters and Kelly Olinick and James Johnson. It's like maybe sometimes it's just like the good vibes last as long as they do. And then when push comes themselves. And also I find it very hard to believe the Milwaukee of Miami are going to be trade partners. There's also that part of it. It's possible. Rob, do you like any other suitors? Yeah, for sure.

Do you like any other suitors beyond Miami? I mean, I love Atlanta. I love that possibility. And especially in a world where Anyaka Kangwu is now shooting threes two in addition to having KP on the roster, like that solves a lot of the spacing issues that you would run into with some of these other teams in Janus. So what's the Atlanta package?

Because if I'm Milwaukee, I'm just like, I'm not letting you keep, you know, like, is trade? Are we talking about trade? I think Trey has to be in the deal. Yeah. Why would Milwaukee want Trey? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's just like, do you think Milwaukee would do Trey just to keep people in seats?

Like, I don't think they're doing it for Trey. I think they're doing it for Trey plus Zachary Risa Shea plus, let's say hypothetically, like a certain New Orleans pick. Like, there's things that you dangle into a deal like that to all of a sudden make it worth Milwaukee's while. I also think if you're the bucks, like having a Trey Young team is not the worst thing in the world. if their goal is to remain relatively competitive, Trey Young Miles Turner is not Janus, but it's a team that can't like will be somewhere in the mix in the Eastern Conference.

And frankly, will it be much worse than ninth or tenth place or 11th place where the bucks are right now? Potentially. Yeah, it has the potential to bottom up, I think pretty quickly. I've said this before. I think the buck should target volume

as much as blue chip assets. And so I want a lot of stuff. And so for that reason, I do like the fact that they can get Risha Shea and a couple of their more recent draft picks. They get a couple of flyers on a couple of recent guys. Kobe Buffkin, unfortunately, not part of that trade, RIP. But like, if I can get the Hawks pick or excuse me, the Pelicans pick plus whatever future picks aren't nailed down and being sent to San Antonio, that would make sense to me.

I do think that would be the sticking point for me if I'm Alana, though. Like a lot of your draft assets are already going to San Antonio. Like, can you double down even further and go out into like the 2030s at this point? just assuming that Janice is going to want to play with, who would be left? Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels, basically. I mean, that's a pretty good fucking core of a team right there. Like, that's, that's, Nikiel Alexander Walker, Akangu would still be there potentially. Like, I think there's a lot there you could work with.

And as far as Janus-led teams go, I like the defensive shape of that supporting cast a lot. But they're in a situation that I think a lot of teams are going to find themselves in, where you're really haggling over the margins, the like the eighth guy. the ninth asset, because that's going to matter way more. Because it's like, okay, let's say it's Jalen Johnson, Janice, Dyson, Daniels, Nikiel, and then just contracts, right? Just guys filling out the rotation. How far is that going to get you in the East, let alone against the Western Conference

team that's going to have a top three plus a nine-man rotation that can play anybody? Is one of those contracts v. Krati? Well, then, I mean, then you're on to something. This is what I'm saying. I think you get the superstar in the trade if you're Milwaukee. That's good spare. Yeah. We should mention that we're talking about this in part because Janice just went on a social media purge in which he deleted all of his Twitter post back to 2021 and scrubbed his Instagram.

So he only left remnants of the cup win surprisingly enough and the 2021 title win. It just means more, man. I guess so. I'm sure by the time people are listening to this, we'll find out like, oh, actually, this is just routine maintenance. I have a new ad deal with like Charmin and we were just cleaning my feeds, you know? Just making sure you guys know I am doing social media posts for Sharman. But I have to say, no show job here. That's right.

I have to say like I find myself just getting more and more mad with Adam Silver in the NBA to force us into the situation where we're just rummaging through the couch cushion for for nickels and dimes of trade rumors because we just. don't have anything at this point. This is the best as it's going to get for probably the next couple months because nothing can happen. It's fine days after Thanksgiving. I mean, like, honestly, like, there wasn't time in an NBA history when we didn't talk about this stuff until at least Christmas. Yeah,

trade season hasn't even officially started yet. Like, we're not there. I just want to say that, like, one of the more interesting trends or at least the introduction of European soccer culture into NBA because of the influx of Europlice,

players has always been really interesting to me, both in terms of the way that these guys think about teams and franchises more as a project rather than like, I've always wanted to play in Denver. You know, it's like, it's got to do a little bit with the way that like these big clubs operate in Europe in terms of like how they'll present like, we're going to build around you, we're going to play this way. Here's what we're going to hope to achieve in the time. I would say that Janice's gesture here is probably a nothingberg.

where you're right, it is chide to some, like, routine maintenance of the social media profile or whatever. But this is a very European soccer thing to do is to, like, kind of keep things out there, popcorn's pop in, let everybody know I'm not happy. He's obviously not happy. Like, if you watch the books over the last couple of games, I don't think his effort is Janus levels.

At least like the other night, I was watching him. And there was an end of game scenario. I can't remember who they were playing now. I'm sorry for the, I'm not as much of a, tape had as I thought I was. But it was just like, I didn't think Janice was like giving like this is, this is the most important thing in the world to me. And whether that augurs that he wants to be traded or not, I don't know.

He really has, given the restrictions that they have to operate or do it, I feel like the Milwaukee Bugs have done everything they can to make him happy. And it hasn't worked out. I feel like I've seen some of the worst Janus defense games from him lately in a long time. Yeah, and that's usually where you see effort the most. Completely. And sometimes it's, you know, he'll make errors of effort, right? He'll over pursue.

He'll overswitch. He'll be in the wrong place because he's trying to make a play. That stuff is all kind of part of the package with a high energy, high motor guy like him. The stuff he's been doing lately is just not characteristic of Janus. And so, like, I'm not trying to, like, drum up smoke for the sake of, like, creating a story. He's just not playing with the level of, like, acuity and specificity and focus that he normally does. And that makes you look around. they lose to the Wizards, the mighty wizards

in the Chris Middleton Revenge game in which Chris Middleton doesn't even need to get revenge because the rest of the wizards are beating the Bucks. It just doesn't bode well for anyone involved. And I don't know if you are the Bucks, if you're a Bucs fan, if you're honest, how you look around and say, yeah, this is all going super great right now.

Everything feels a little off. Everything feels pretty precarious. I wouldn't blame him for looking around. Even if, you know, I've never passive aggressively scrubbed my social media. Chris, I'm sure you've done that once or twice in your day. I am not. My Twitter feed is essentially like, you know, like the first few years of it is like what old Twitter used to be, which is like no context, live tweeting games. That was sick.

Damn. And then like five years of links, you know, to like my own work. And then I just stopped tweeting. I'm kind of in the same bow here. I think it's interesting, though, because Janus, at times I find is more calculated than people give him credit for. I think like he's much more sharp with his elbows than perhaps his sunshiny like disposition and just overall persona like lends you to believe. On the other hand, like he'll just be revealing too much about his sex life with like his wife and mother of like three children and just be like a total goofball. And so maybe it's there's a middle ground there.

But I really find it hard to read him because as we're going through the summer for instance, I was like, this guy might just ask for a trade in August after everybody's already made their their rosters. I think one of the strange things about Janice's saga is that, like, whether it's because of the way that he's kind of presented himself or the fortunes of the bucks or perhaps like just the psychology of Milwaukee fans, I'm not saying anything negative there. There also seems like there needs to be a moment where Janice has to reaffirm his commitment to the franchise despite his contract situation. It's like, what we really need is Janus to step forward and be like, I'm here for the rest of my career. Yes. And he obviously doesn't have to do that. I mean, he's allowed to kind of play the string out if he wants to. But it's unique to, I feel like I can't think of another superstar where it's like,

please swear that you're going to stay with us is like a kind of recurring storyline. Just begging for the vowel renewal. Like, and yet it's not, it's not going to come. And you're right, Chris. Like it shouldn't come. If anyone's like a loyalty kind of speaks for itself to this point, I would think it would be honest is given everything he's endured there, given everything he's built and won there. like it's okay to look around for a player in his position.

It's okay to consider your options. I think it's okay for him to say, my team is desperate enough to wave and stretch Damien Lillard to get Miles Turner because they feel that I am leaving. And sometimes that makes you want to leave more. Sometimes that feeling of like, now we are just like locked in this closet together

and there are no other ways out. And if this doesn't work, it doesn't work. And right now it's working to like fairly middling effect on a regular basis. Yeah, and as much as John Horace in the books were kind of signaling to their fans over the offseason that they've done everything they can for Janus. It's kind of a guilt trip,

especially for the guy that's like right down the hall being like, dude, we did everything possible. Like, if you can't make this work, like, I don't know what to do. Like, that's got a way on someone who's been there for about a decade. See, that's the Justin Barrier take, is the Miles Turner signing was a guilt trip for Janus.

That's unfortunately also correct. Wait, let's hear you name that take. I feel like we were just getting good at this. Yeah, yeah. Okay. This one, No one's going to get this. I don't know what the fuck I was doing here,

but we're talking about the OKC Thunder in this one. Rob, I think it's your turn to start. I think I need like four clues for this. I'm going to say three. I'm going to say name that take. I want to let Chris ride. Okay. All right.

The subject is the Oklahoma City Thunder. Clue number one, the new CBA. Clue number two, parody or lack thereof. And number three, the big picture repercussions of a 70 win season. your take is that enjoy the thunderwall at last because Adam Silver, big accounting, and the championship hangover is coming. Kind of in the same word cloud, but probably the opposite side of that. Yeah.

My take, which is elongated into two sentences, I couldn't even box it into one. The league is trumpeted its newfound parody at every turn, particularly in the face of criticism about the new CBA. But curtailing over spending is only going to compound OKC's advantage, creating a juggernaut with a potential for long longevity that we haven't seen in decades. As we're recording this, the Thunder have lost only one game. They actually got a big old push last night by the Warriors. The third quarter warriors came back last night. That's right. That's the thing is it feels like a win when you make Shea play in the fourth quarter.

That's like how the season has gone for the thunder. I will say the thunder deserve all the credit in the world for what they built. They haven't, believe it or not, really reaped any of the benefits of all their future asset building trades. Like at this point, as far as I could like suss out, they've only got the pick from Houston that allowed them to draft Nicolokopich at 12 and Thomas Sorber last year at 15. All of the benefits they have from the Clippers and all these other teams, I believe Dallas picks down the road. they haven't even hit yet, which is the scary part about this team. It's largely built based off of just shrewd execution, player development, player identification, and just development overall.

And so if I'm the rest of the NBA, I'm pretty worried because this is only going to compound over time their advantage. And I think the unfortunate thing is the new CBA dropped at a time where their advantage is just about to start. And so I don't see how another team is, going to be able to slow them down in the big picture. Obviously, they probably won't win every title. Maybe it will be more spotty in the way that other past, maybe like more Spurs dynasty than it was perhaps like a Lakers dynasty. Like always in and around it, injuries aside, like Western

Conference Finals finals every year. Yeah. But outside of other teams built in similar fashion, I think Houston is a prime example of this and the Spurs, obviously. But if you're any other team, trying to build something competitive with them is going to be near impossible. And I think the Lakers are a prime example of this where it's like Luca bring Reeves back. And then like maybe we find scratched together enough cash

in order to bring someone quality in order to fill out the team. Like that'll give you a chance, but it's not on the same level, I think we would say. Denver, for instance, is a prime candidate to contend with them this year. I think they're going to hit a wall next year

when the Christian Brown extension kicks in and all of a sudden you're back to digging through the crates for 10-day guys and drafts. And so I think, like, the CBA has almost given rise to a jargonaut, not only because the thunder are good, because the time did it is just such a ridiculous time, but you can't even build a team by overspending at this point. And so, fuck the NBA.

I also don't know if building a team by overspending would matter. You know what you mean? Like, that's how good these guys look is that, look, I would have loved to have seen the Warriors play them with Steph last night because I think the Warriors, to me, when I've seen them this season, definitely seem to play up to competition rather than down. There will be teams that give these guys a scare, and maybe even a scare in a series because they've scheme something up.

But I'm so impressed by these guys. It's getting spursy and its boringness of just being like, that's best defense I've seen in a long time. And, you know, it seems like the thing that drives me nuts about them is that they somehow draft into roles, or they create roles that for the guys, that they've drafted so that there is no headache about like, well, obviously this dude's going to want to get paid so he's going to get featured. So when he gets on the court, he's going to want

to take shots and he's going to want to have like a highlight reel. It's just like they somehow seem to have circumvented that issue. Probably because they won a championship and everybody's like I'm about to be a part of something historic. But I don't even know if you put together like the most feasible super team you could if they beat them. If you put Janus on the Lakers, do you think they would beat the Thunder in a seven game series? Depends on what the Lakers game. Yeah.

And we should say Luca is one of the unique guys who has actually given them trouble now and again, including in the playoffs. Granted, like an earlier primordial version of the Thunder. Yeah. But like that's the kind of creator you need. And if you don't have that guy, if you don't have Luca or Yokic, basically, maybe there's like one other person in that category, you're kind of just in such a tough spot.

You're right, Chris, that they're not, like, unbeatable on a night-to-night basis, but they're kind of unbeatable on, like in a seven game sort of set. If you put Janus on the Blazers, who have, who did be there. Be still, my beating heart. God damn.

As long as they don't give up Denny. Yeah. You just can't take Denny away from me. I do like the overall frame of this take, Justin, because I think we need to start talking about the Thunder as the team that can, kind of break the parody era of the NBA. Like they could turn out to be the dynasty within all of this supposed balance.

For as much as we love to anoint people in sports, for some reason, we can be strangely resistant to the idea that we are like living history in the present tense right now. And the Thunder are one of these teams who they're reeling off all these wins. People kind of talk about them, kind of ignore them. This isn't an unproven team anymore. Like they just won the title and they have the freaking MVP

and the deepest roster in the league. And they're doing all this. and they have no sign of stopping. So I don't know why you would expect anything other than some kind of dynastic presence from the Thunder and the years to come, not just because they have all this, but because they could have basically anything

they want in the trade market as well. Like we already talked about. Yeah, it's funny, Rob, because one of the reasons that were given, aside from the obvious one, which is the money involved, but one of the reasons why the NBA won't shorten the season is because of their reverence for records and for history

and not wanting to change the parameters under which these things are achieved. But, like, we're watching history, you know? Be like, this is going to be a historically good run for this team, barring, like, catastrophic injuries. And yet we put Janus above them on the rundown. Now, not in, like, a negative way, but, like, this is kind of like talking about Lane Kiffin instead of Indiana going undefeated

and only losing, like, two games in two years, you know? Like, it's, it's kind of, it's that kind of, like, distraction. culture that we live in, where we're like, oh, no, I'd rather, like, play on the trade machine than watch, like, the Thunder and the Warriors. But pretty soon it's going to become, like, must-see TV because they might be some completely obscene. They could be, like, 30 and one.

You know what I mean? Like, I was looking at the back half of their schedule yesterday during an NBA meeting because I think we were like, oh, yeah, but they must have a really hard schedule to close the season. And I didn't really do the math on, like, how many games and how many days they have. But they are so good that no team,

It doesn't seem hard. Yeah. Because you're like, yeah, it's a W, that's a W, that's a W. And you're like, wait a second. Like 70 games, 72 games. Like how, what are we talking about here? I mean, life is pretty good when you never have to play the Thunder, you know?

Like all of a sudden you can just coast through things. I see two obstacles, not necessarily issues in the big picture when it comes to the NBA. I love watching the Thunder. They scratch some sort of like logistical pornage that I've talked about in the past where the things, the way that they intersect and how they're just so dialed in on all the my new details just like speaks to me in a way that few teams have. I would say one is exposure. Like I say despite their success,

they still aren't even on the docket for the mom test, let alone passing it. I wonder as they're more on national TV. And as Chris alluded to, they're on national TV a ton after the football season is over. So we're in the process there. I do think if they are going to be historically dominant, you want people to be able to latch on to them,

the common fan and the way that they were the warriors. You want them to be celebrities in their own right. Maybe Shay gets there, maybe not. The other thing is, like, I do think teams are set up to be foils, but I almost wonder if it's redundant with where they like kind of project as a character in the broad scheme of the NBA where it's like they're the home gun team doing things the right way. The spurs do that as well. It almost like overlaps there where what I really want is LeBron on the Cavs versus the Warriors where it's like that they're foils for each other. And that's why I almost want a team to be bought in the way that people suggested the Warriors were with KD, where it's like.

Like, it's two things clashing at once because that's what's going to drive the most interesting. Yeah, but the problem with like the amount of information and analytics that are in the game right now is that everybody knows the right way to do it. Right. Are we like a baseball territory where the daughters have both? The only thing that we can hope for is that Mark Waters is like there is no limit. Like, you know what I mean? Like I will somehow acquire, you know, like three number one picks. But like I said, like the only thing that can stop the thunder are the thunder.

It would be injuries. It would be like press TV and like I've decided to run for president. Like I don't I don't know what it is, but it's not going to be, it's not going to be like any of the other teams in the West. I don't think. Yeah. I mean, they've just controlled for a lot of the variables. And this is where I think you're spot on, Chris, about the way that they draft and slotting guys into roles that have opportunity for expansion of their skill sets, but also are just like so comfortable for them. I think the Thunder do about as good of a job as any team in the league of really understanding the people that they're,

drafting and what they are getting into and not drafting the overly ambitious precious Achua types of like, I think I'm a superstar and you're going to try to shoehorn me into being a role player. They draft guys who are clearly very talented, very multi-skilled, guys who they think can work in their system and their like developmental complex. They also draft people who personality-wise will fit with this group and will fit if they are the eighth or ninth guy coming off the bench for a little while. Like that goes a long way and it's probably, look, it's a luxury when you have as many picks as they do to be able to think that way, but they're really good at it.

Well, speaking of a team that drafted its way to great success. Let's talk about the Chicago Bulls, the next topic, last topic on the board. I think Rob, you're starting the bidding. Yeah, I think I can do it in, I think I can do it in two clues. Okay. Name that take Rob. All right. The topic is the Chicago Bulls clue number one, trade deadline, as you might have expected.

And number two, Pascal Seacom. Okay, so I want to talk about this Pascal Seaccombe bit. It's been sticking in my craw all week. I'm so glad you gave me this forum to discuss it. I love this story. Clearly. We should just say there's the ESPN story, I believe, by Jamal Collier, basically, with an anonymous bulls source, basically suggesting that they need their own version of Pascal Seca. Well, it was kind of, the vibe of the story seemed to have been, the Genesis seemed to have been in their red hot start.

Yes. And now reality has kind of come for Chicago. So, but it's a little bit, but it's basically like they want to be. play fast. They want to be the Pacers. They have their Halliburton and giddy. That's the critical part. And now they need their Seacom. It's not that they need their Seacom. To an All-Star and be what Howley was.

Yeah. Many, many thoughts about that, uh, that assumption just baked in. I think the Justin take is clearly that they need to acquire Anthony Davis to be their Pascal Seacom. In the ballpark yet again, but the other side of the coin here, uh, the take is I actually agree with the nut job bull source. Chicago needs a Seacum, not an AD. They also needed Tyrese Halliburton, Justin. Do you know where they could find one of those? Well, I don't think they'll ever get that far. It really becomes tough to be a Bulls defender because

they say certain things like this. And generally, we should play a game of name that nut job source one of these days. It's the next permutation. Trade deadline fodder. I think if they can get AD at a discounted price, which I don't think they can because the Mavs have already suggested that they're pushing back on that idea, I would go for it. just as a stop gap, but I think long term, that just compounds the cycle of being mediocre, mediocre that they've had. What they need, honestly, is just a version of Siakum, but just with lower expectations. If you're expecting to be competitive, not title contenders, then I think it makes some sense. So who is the lower rent version of Pascal Seacom? Well, technically Scotty Barnes,

but I don't know. Scottie Barnes is really good. He's way too good for even that kind of conversation. This is kind of the trouble with targeting a Pascal Seaccom type. There's not a lot of guys who do all the shit Pascal Seaccom does. Yeah, if anybody has a Pascal Seaccom, they're holding onto them for dear life. Completely. And the other part of this is the assumption that Josh Giddy is the driver of a high-level offense. Like, Tyrese Halliburton needed the Pascal Seacom because he was leading some of the best offenses in the league. They just weren't stable enough to be playoff viable to the level the Pacers needed.

Josh Giddy, even with that hot start, consistently met's out to this point, which is he's very skilled, he's very talented. I love the way he reads the floor, and his offenses are usually like just below league average in terms of what we've seen

from the Bulls so far. So a bit of a, a bit of a chasm there in terms of what we're trying to bridge. This is really your two passion projects colliding, which is supporting the Pacers and bagging on the Bulls.

So I see the glint in your eye. Do you know what, though, I have to say that the story did get me, I find that like if there aren't that many sleeping giants in the NBA because the NBA, like you've discussed with Oklahoma, the parody and just also the way that the talent is distributed. But Chicago is certainly one of like the untapped reservoirs of fan passion and also media frenzy.

And I do think that like an even moderately successful bullse team would be very good for the league and also like really, really passionately followed. And just even this, like, they go 5 and O and they start talking about being one A to the Pacers is almost indicative of like the like, we have like, we have like almost like snakes in our brain about this because, because we think we want a good basketball team here so bad. I mean, like you give that fan base even the three alpha's version of the Bulls and they show up for it. Like they will.

I think you're exactly right. There's a powder keg element to the Chicago Bulls that they have just been pouring water on for 10 straight years, and I don't really understand why. I think there's some logic to what they're saying overall, though, in that they find themselves yet again, despite all doubt, like being pretty competitive this year. And if they're still going to be stuck in this cycle where they're going to be in the 10th seed, no matter what they do, it's going to be hard to tank your way to the top pick where they ultimately need in order to reset their franchise. So if that's not going to happen, which they have full control over,

and I realize, like, they could just tank in totality, and this would solve itself. I think there's a certain logic to, like, going out and getting someone just being the best version of what you can be. But I also think part of this is, like, I think they do have something with the flow that they play on offense, the guys that they have in order to move the ball. And I don't know if AD in this version of them,

maybe like five years ago and more like Pelicans, like shooting on the move, mid-range jumper AD would make sense. But like stodgy, 80, 20 pounds of muscle too heavy. wouldn't necessarily solve all their issues. They are soft as hell as Nikola Vosovich of all people has alluded to, and I do think he would help their defense a ton and they need that.

But the ideal version is more of their Turner plus someone like a Seacom in order to really complete the vision of what they have. So I just want them to be a low rent pacer's ultimate. I think if you make the defense better overall, whether through Anthony Davis or otherwise, you relieve the pressure on the offense needing to be world beating. Because as we've seen,

like they just reeled off four straight losses like they are at a point where they are running as much as they do they're playing fast they're just not really going anywhere because they don't have honestly like some of the same like isolation pop that a team like miami does like when the ball swings to norm powell it feels dangerous when the ball swings to like iudas sumu sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't like you know it's going to ebb and flow a little bit that's another part of this where it's just like do you really want to gunk up your pace and play more in the half court like good luck. You don't like Josh Giddy now. Like wait until he's just like pounding the air out of the ball and like taking a set

shot. It's just not going to work. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Chris? Thanks for having you guys. Thanks for joining us on this journey into my psychosis. We'll be back on Sunday. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia.

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