The Ringer NBA Show - The Championship Race in the West Is Wide Open. Plus: Dennis Schröder Signs to the Celtics and Wos’s Summer League Thoughts. | Group Chat

Episode Date: August 11, 2021

Justin and Rob hear Big Wos’s thoughts about summer league from Las Vegas, including Cade Cunningham’s impressive performance, Detroit and Houston’s young cores, Jalen Green’s ceiling, and much more (0:30). Then they talk about what the Celtics could do this season after signing Dennis Schröder to a one-year contract (24:05) and the top contenders in what looks to be a fairly wide-open Western Conference (37:40). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringers Charles Holmes and co-host Grace Spellman present the most notorious new podcast in the industry, the Ringer Music Show. Every Tuesday, they'll bring you the latest news, the hottest takes, and the deepest reporting about the wild world of music and the chaotic industry that creates it. Check out the Ringer Music Show exclusively on Spotify. To group chat, I am Justin Verrier, joining me for this midsummer edition, as always, Rob Mahoney. And Big Was, Wasne-Lambrae, checking in from Las Vegas. Was, how you feeling right? now. All things considered, I'm actually pretty good. But I will say it's pretty dope to be here to lock in with a bunch of people who I literally haven't seen since March of 2020. Feels like we are quote unquote getting back to normal because there's a bunch of people when, you know, the NBA is kind of a community.

And so there's a lot of people who are your friends who are your people who I haven't seen in forever. And because Summer League functions as NBA summer camp is nice that I'm getting to see a bunch of people having fun. Yes, it includes drinking and, you know, for some people it includes strip clubs, not me because I'm a good guy. I don't do strip clubs. Right. Those are the friends you're actually talking about, right? The strippers, yes.

Those are the friends that I actually miss. No, but yeah, it's always don't to be down here, man, because it's literally a powwow of the entire league in and around it, right? From agents to team management, to coaches, to players, to media, to literally, the whole league is here. Everybody's here.

So it's nice to catch up with folks. Does it feel normal? Like, does it feel like a regular summer league experience? Basically, it's normal. Thomas and Mack and most places have a mass policy because of the people who refuse to get vaccinated. The people who refuse to get vaccinated. And, you know, the numbers and blah, blah, blah.

but me as a vaccinated person. I'm cool with the protocols and I'm cool masking up, but I also realize I'm not worried about getting sick and dying, right? So everybody has a mask mandate. Everybody's pretty much adhering to it. There's not people being hard-headed

and, you know, wanting to do their own thing. So it's cool, man. Like, it's a lot of people. Like, for the Cade and Jalen Green thing yesterday, there was energy. in the freaking building to watch that. As much as, you know, it's a summer league game, it doesn't matter. But people are, like, excited to be watching a hoop in person, excited about these young kids.

It was dope. It was dope to be a part of it. Yeah, I was curious to see just how full the stands were going to be for this. You know, this isn't the NBA playoffs. This is usually an event where the fans in Vegas and they come in from L.A. and all over and fill it out. But these are weird circumstances. There are a lot of people spooked by Delta right.

now, but that has not stopped anybody, it seems, from filling the stands at Thomas and Mack and Cox Pavilion. Those games look pretty well attended. They are well attended. And, you know, as I'm sitting in my little media section, and I'm like, yo, these guys going nuts because they put a bet on a summer league game here. Right. So like, I'm sitting there watching it. I'm like, yo, the people who are at Summer League are not casual fans. They are people who love the NBA. They love basketball. Or degenerates, one of the two.

Right. Or degenerates. They would be here under pretty much any circumstances that allowed them to be. And that's the cool thing about being here. You're around the most fanatical. NBA people on earth, basically, right? Like, you come to Summer League, you're not going to glean any real information

about Kate Cunningham or Evan Mobley from watching them play in this context. Like, this is divorced from any real NBA context, but you love the game so much. Any amount of basketball that you could, you know, consume is going to be fun. And it is fun to finally watch these young guys in an actual person.

professional context. Because even Summer League is better than the ACC, to be honest. Like, the talent is better here. There's no Michael Beasley in the ACC, okay? No, Kenneth, Farree. As you're talking about it, I'm just thinking about the type of person who would risk the Delta variant and whatever would happen in order to watch Peyton Pritchard go off for, like, 34.

It's like, sure the NBA is very safe. But it also, it reminds me of, like, why I don't go on roller coasters. Like, I don't want, like, my obituary, the first line to be guy flung from, like, trying to go, ooh, like, on his free time. Like, kind of like, I think dying, like, getting the Delta variant, like, subcoming to something is, like, in order to watch Kate Cunningham's debut at the Thomas Mac Center's, like, on the lowest of my, uh, uh, wants there for, for that. Um, but I will say this.

You just don't love it enough. You don't love the game. I just don't have the passion. Yeah. I will say this. I disagree with Waz slightly in that I do think that like when a player performs poorly, like you could often write it up. But I do think certain players reveal themselves to be just like they deserve to be in the NBA.

You could see the glimpses of stard from day one from the jump. I always talk about Damien Lillard in his summer league. I think he won MVP as a rookie that year. Not that like there haven't been a ton of just terrible MVP. I think Josh Selby was in. MVP one year. Glenn Rice Jr., I believe, when he wasn't even signed. But, like, last night's game, Cade versus G on the Green, Rockets versus Pistons,

one versus two, I did look at Cade and see like just total comfort there. I think he's already a stud. Green was good, too. I think he ended up with more points, shot the three ball well. But like something about Cade's just confidence and just the way he can get around the court, he was like organizing other teammates, just seems like he already belonged. He looks totally at home in NBA-style basketball. And I realize that's a stretch for Summer League,

but just the way he steps into transition threes, the way he's going through his pick-and-roll game, the pace he plays with. He looks like an NBA player, which is not exactly a surprise. But it's always good to see them stack up in that way against, as well as I was saying, the next level of competition,

some NBA caliber guys, some other young players. He looks really, really smooth. And I'm very curious to see once he gets hit by some bigger bodies in the NBA once he's against some next level athletes, if that translates at that level even more, especially in year one. Typically, guys like him, you know, you need to build up your body a little bit, get your legs going to really find the rhythm of your career at a high level. But I wouldn't be surprised just given, again, the confidence and the cadence of his game if he

were just coming out like gangbusters right from day one. You know, it's dope that you mention confidence because I think there's two ways to read his demeanor and his approach to the game. I'm watching this Lee kid soak up possession after possession as Kate is just kind of, he's fine with just letting it happen. He's fine with just, all right, when I get the ball, I'm going to do what I'm supposed to do, but I'm also going to let my guys who are on the fringes of the roster cook as well. And there's two ways to look at that.

Some people might be like, yo, Jalen Greets said, fuck that. give me the ball. I'm getting shots up. People came here to see me. This is what I'm going to do. And there's a reason to like that approach too. But there's also something to like about Kate Cunningham's confidence, his unwillingness to be rushed. He just, he's under control at all times. And, you know, even in a matchup against the guy who some people might say should have been the number one pick instead of him. He doesn't let the moment overcome him, and he's playing the game. It's pretty cool to see. And I understand, like, you know, look, I'm only going to be in Vegas for two more days. I'm like, I'm not going to watch you play until the season starts. I would like to see you be more aggressive about being on the ball. But there's something to say about that.

Like, he's just like, yo, it's going to be fine. It's Summer League. It's going to be fine. There's only a matter of time before people are asking him to play more off of the ball in order to take advantage of his off the ball skills. So it's just like, it's nice to see him do a little bit of everything. He was posting up a smaller defender. Everything looks crisp.

Everything looks polished. He feels at ease doing all of it. It reminds me of the story Danny Chow wrote for us on The Ringer right before Kate got drafted one overall. It was about processing and like how he reads the court probably better or faster than a lot of other players and what an advantage that is in today's modern NBA. But there was specifically a comparison to Luca Donchich. And there was one person who has.

has a background in the science of it all, basically saying, like, there probably isn't much of a difference between the two, except Luca tends to make the flashy pizzazz play, whereas Kaj just makes the right play and just kind of moves along. It looked exactly like that, which was really encouraging to see if you're the pistons. Well, and everything we're saying, I think, speaks volumes about his ability to not only succeed in the NBA, but to fit with all these other pieces that Detroit's trying to put together here. You know, like, as, as was laid out in terms of his willingness to give up the ball and play and pick his spots, that's going to go really well next to Killian Hayes.

He's going to be able to find Siddique Bay on the weak side, not force things, looking for that guy, looking for Isaiah Stewart on the duckins under the basket once he's healthy and back in the lineup. So there's really something coming together here for Detroit. He's obviously the tent pole piece of that, the one that makes all these other pieces make sense. These other guys are pretty much, I think, projected as role players or at least longer term projects if they're going to get higher than that.

But he's the guy who can make all that coales. Well, that's actually a good point to talk about this question I had for you guys, is like, which future would you rather have, the Detroit Pistons or the Houston Rockets? On the one hand, all the guys that Rob mentioned, Sadiq Bay, they have a lot of young talent, plus Jeremy Green's the lot they're making way too much, but seems to fit what they're doing here with all these other players. Jeremy Grant. On the other hand, Jeremy Grant, what did I say?

Jeremy Green. I'm just thinking about like the Megatron, I'm mixed up somebody's name. I'm going to remember who I said and it's going to crack you up, but I'm forgetting right now. Was it Alfie Sangoon? Shengung? Who, well, this actually fits with what I'm saying here. 21 points, eight rebounds.

The guy looked like a combination of just like a back to the basket center one minute and then just like a stretch five. The next was, like are you higher on the piston future or the rocket future at this point? I don't think there's much daylight between the two. And that's because something that I wanted to say to you guys, which is the funny thing that we do with these young guys before they ever do anything, there was this idea of, well, you expended a high draft pick on Killian Hayes, who's a wing last year. And so therefore, why would you take another wing in this?

year's draft and those two dudes games couldn't be more opposite right um if kate cunningham is all basketball savant know how understanding you know if not you know physically lebron or whatever killing hayes is the opposite direction like one he's jacked he is freaking jacked somebody told him to get into a weight room and he like listen to them and he's he's like physically like a really imposing dude at his position but he doesn't have the feel and understanding that Kate like and you know that's not even fair like most people can't have Kate Cunningham's feeling understanding at his age that's not something that most 99% of players don't have that but yeah they I think they compliment each other in that sense and you might say to yourself that Houston

doesn't have the complimentary two-way pieces that Detroit seems to possess right now. But at the same time, I think somebody like me is a little bit more excited about a Jalen Green just because physically that stuff you can't learn. He's so dynamic off the bounce with his first step. he's aggressive about getting to the cup, not afraid of contact. He's aggressive about everything, yes, yes. And to me, the potential of that is higher than Kate. I think Kate's floor is higher because of the things we just mentioned about his understanding and feel for the game.

He's going to be a productive NBA play no matter what happens, you know. but will he get to a super duper star level? I feel like Jalen Green has a higher potential to reach that. And so what do you like more, right? Like, do you like a higher floor or a higher ceiling? That's depending on taste. Jalen Green, you know, watching him is just like, man, this guy is, he jumps off of the page, man, like something about. I'm surprised you said that, though, because like I was watching Green last night and I'm like, this guy looks scrawny.

Like, he looks small. Maybe it's just because Kate is huge. He was formerly a power forward, like a back the basket power forward in his younger ages before he became a point card. But he looks small. Maybe like the hair just like overwhelms him. He looks even smaller. It seemed like he was like struggling like maybe to get his shot off against longer defenders. I don't know.

Rob, what do you think? He looks like Michael Jackson before the Vitilago kicked in. That's what I think is happening. Rob, does he strike he as more of an off-the-wall MJ or? Thriller. More of a bad, I think. But I mean, he looks really thin. And that's going to be the question is,

is he thin in the way where he kind of sneaks past guys and glides past guys? Or is he thin in the way where he gets really held up once he starts trying to drive at the NBA level? But for what it's worth, I've been more impressed with him here in Summer League than I was with the G-League Ignite. And you can impose whatever framework you want on that idea, like about structured versus unstructured basketball. Maybe that has something to do with it.

But he has a success to his game in the random elements in terms of his ability to just burst by guys, to sneak through the lane, to do all these kinds of weird, strange moves, but while maintaining balance and body control, there's a really good, you know, kind of kinesthetic framework there to make a really good basketball player. And so there's something to build on between that and the step back jumpers and the confidence in his dribble at his age. Those are all really good things. But Justin, I really like the question

about the pistons and the rockets because it really is a philosophical question not only about upside and kind of a sure bet as Waz laid out, but also about do you want a deeper bench of prospects or do you want the sure thing prospect in Cade Cunningham? Because the rockets, while they don't fit together

as well as the pistons seem to right now, they just have so many different pieces. They have extra draft picks coming in and on top of that, you have green, You have Christian Wood who's still only 25 years old. You have Kevin Porter Jr. who is popping off for them. I like KP. Really talented player, but at the same time, how does he fit next to Jalen Green?

I don't know. And then you have, you have Jayshon Tate still there. You have Shangun, as we mentioned, who has been... John Wall, former All-Star. Theoretically, John Wall is on that team. Usman Garuba, who we haven't seen play for this team yet. Another first-run pick in Josh Christopher. You have this group of kind of like, will they or won't they make it guys?

And Kyrie Thomas. and Kenyon Martin Jr. and them. So there's just a lot going on there where if I'm going to pick and choose between those situations, I might go Houston just on the variety of the prospects and the idea that, you know, we don't know if Alperin-Shangoon is going to be a good NBA player yet. And so to hedge against the possibility that he tops out at role player

or tops out at backup center or flames out of the NBA entirely, give me the team that has eight potential NBA prospects on it. Yeah, headlined by Jay, Green, who, I mean, I've been really impressed with him so far out in Vegas. And, you know, the thing that I will say about Jalen Green, which, look, I'm not going to confess to have broken down Mad G League Unite tape. I did not. I'm sure everybody will be shocked by that. But, you know, what I will say about watching him and, you know, on his Instagram, the morning of the game, he's playing.

playing a Detroit rapper's song and rapping the words. Like, he's fine with the moment. He's, he wants it. He wants it. And I know that could seem like a little esoteric or, you know, you can't really grasp that feeling. But I will say the things that make us, you know, disinterested in people like Andrew Wiggins

and some people in people like Anthony Edwards, this idea of like, yeah, sure, you got all this physical stuff, but you don't have the makeup mentally of what it takes to be LeBron and KD and all of these guys. Like, yeah, they got physical stuff too, but they go as hard as anybody and they're maniacal about getting it done. Do you have that? I feel like Jalen Green does. It feels like he really cares about this stuff.

He has the want to, and he has the physical stuff. And, you know, you guys mentioned his slight frame, which, you know, that's not ideal. But he's so quick, man. I don't know if guys are going to be able to get their hands on him. He is so quick off of the ball. He is so quick with the first step. And I think he's going to become a good cutter. He's going to be one of those guys that's catching lobs back door.

He's going to be doing all of that stuff because he really wants to. You know, it's not Andrew Wiggins. And, you know, we don't want to diss Andrew Wiggins who got a 150 mil because he gave the owner of the Timber was a promise that he would work on his game. He said, no, I promise. I'm going to work on my game. Give me 150. Right. Like, he's not Andrew Wiggins, man.

This guy's not disinterested. This guy's engaged in everything. And that's really exciting. There's a lot of people treating this one like a regular NBA game. Like you had Jailen Green talking about. like how much disrespect he got by being passed by one team. And then you had the pistons like sending traps and zones and just like there's a lot going on in this game. It didn't seem like Cade rose to the occasion though. He was talking some shit back to Green and whoever.

And like, you know, I do feel like he's a little bit more steely, a little bit more reserved. But he seemed like he had that kind of edge, I think that you're talking about with Green. Yeah, and he's, you know, just from sort of listening to some of the interviews that he did, this guy's like really mature for his age. He's got a kid, you know, like, this guy is like really a grown-ass man already in as far as far as his temperament. And I think it showed yesterday, like I said, Jalen Green was like, I'm playing against the dude. They got picked over me. I'm going to get 20 shots today.

I don't care what happens. Whereas Kate Cunningham is like, I'm going to play ball. I know people are here to watch this little fake intra competition because I was the number one picking. He was number two and we're wings and we play the same position roughly and all of that. But I'm here to poop. All that other stuff is stuff. I'm here to get stuff done on the actual court and do the job of being the most important

person on my team right now. And I just think that's fascinating, you know, like two guys taking different approaches to a meaningless summer league game. Right. And that's why I like the short, though. Like, I think Cade won't fail. Like, we didn't even talk about his shot,

which looks gorgeous. Like, just, he's going to be a knockdown shooter just right away. And so, like, all that other stuff will come. So I'm pretty high on him to answer the original question. I would go with the shirt thing. Like, I could bet on Cade as the best player probably of that draft pick of that draft class.

And then they've got enough around them to build for it. They got the one guy though. And that usually is the difference. Just stick with the theme of Vegas. I'm a gambler. I feel like they're just more upside with Jalen Green. It's just, I don't know. It's just so tantalizing what he has.

Like those are the things that win playoff series, right? Like those are the things that people tend to not have answers for. You know, it is the Janus's, the KDs, the LeBron. the like physical freaks of nature where it's like what you want me to find a guy that can be strong enough, fast enough, tall enough to deal with the honest and LeBron, those people don't exist, right?

I think Jalen Green is in that category of physical specimens, man, as far as what he brings to the game. And so I would always gamble on his, but yeah, Cade is, it's hard to envision a scenario where he doesn't play 15 years in the NBA. I love that gambling mentality with Green too

because that's what's going to make him so fun to watch in these first couple years in the league is we just have no idea what his optimal NBA role is. We've already invoked the Luca comparison with Kate. I think there's a lot to that and all these kind of like dominant ball handlers. He can be that.

Is Jalen Green a lead ball handler? He kind of is for the Rockets Summer. He is for the Rocket Summer League team because they don't really have a traditional point guard and so we're getting to see that part of his game in a different way. But maybe he's mostly an off ball play. Like he looks really smooth, catching and shooting, going around screens.

He can do a little bit of all that, which puts him in a really interesting space. Yeah, I don't want to be the person telling him he's not going to be the lead ball. He just seems like he's going to take those possessions no matter what. But both teams are interesting, which is something we probably wouldn't have said about both teams last season. So we'll see. Wow, we talked a lot about Summer League. I wasn't expecting this much. But we've got some other stuff we want to talk about.

Dennis Schrooter, off the market, finally. he found a home in Boston unfortunately one that did not pay him as much as he was probably hoping for turned down that $84 million extension with the Lakers during the season and then he got to the off season and there weren't any chairs left for him after all these deals got signed he ends up signing for one year for $5.9 million with the Celtics that's the taxpayer mid-level. Rob, how are you feeling about the fit? Do you think ultimately this is a good spot for Schrooter to rehab his value or does? Did he just screw this up? And this is just like a total catastrophe for him. Well, I mean, I think he screwed it up in the earning sense, just because there was so much more money on the table with the extension.

But once you get to this point, once you've already made the mistake, this is as good a fit as you're going to find of what's left between role, you know, good team that you can actually contribute to filling a need for them. There's touches. There's opportunity there. This was kind of the no-brainer of the field of teams that still had their exceptions, still had potential cap space to sign with. it seemed like it was going to be the Celtics either way.

Yeah. Opportunity-wise, this is pretty damn good landing spot for him because, you know, as much as we love the kids, we love Jalen Brown, we love Jason Tatum. We love what they bring to the table as far as players, but what they don't bring is playmaking, soaking up possessions on offense, initiating offense. That's not what they do.

And you don't want to empower Marcus Smart, to be the person who is solely responsible for that if you're Boston. So Dennis Trude is literally stepping into a void. And if you're somebody who's looking for a deal on a team that has aspirations to accomplish things next year, as far as being, you know, upper tier of the Eastern Conference and the playoff seating and playing some meaningful basketball in the postseason, you put yourself in a position to do that. However, I feel like Dennis Schroeder didn't get paid because he stunk it up in the playoffs.

And is he in a position to be better than next year's playoffs? It's a great question. Yeah, I think the positive outlook on this is that he's just German Kemba. You know, he gives them what they're probably lacking in that dynamic ball handling. On the other side of this, I think like maybe the shooting, like the really good shooting season that he had okay, see before he left might have been the outlier in that like he probably doesn't shoot as well as that again. And that's just like they're trying to play a little bit bigger this year. I don't know what they're doing in the front court without Horford being there and Rob Williams. If

they're trying to start both of those guys and Horford's playing more four than five, then like you had Schroeder into the mix as a starter. That's like it's pretty cramped. And I also worry a little bit like if shooter's on a one year deal without an option for another year, like is he going to be a little bit more selfish than you'd want to. So I don't know. I'm a little bit mixed on this. I think it could work, but I have my concerns about it going forward.

I think it has more to do with, you know, not just getting another guy in the door, another pretty talented player, a guy who's proven to be a pretty effective score, if not always in the playoffs. But as Wazz was mentioning, just putting your best guys

in the roles that they're supposed to be in. Like Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown are not Jalen Green. We know that they should not be primary initiators of an offense. And so then it's about, okay, who's the most competent point guard we can get, who can put those guys in more comfortable spots off the ball, or coming off of screens, or, you know, getting into a play with an advantage

so they don't have to create everything from nothing every time down the floor. You know, Jason Tatum can do that. You know, he's going to have games where he goes off for 40 or 50 points and he's manufacturing everything, but you don't want to do that on a nightly basis. You want a guy like Dennis Schrooter to, even if it's just bringing the ball up, getting your stuff into sets, like that, that, is a meaningful addition to their team given their other personnel.

Yeah, I would also say that is a big part of the optimistic point of view as well, just because I also think like it seems collectively down on the Celtics, but I also think there's a timeline here where Tatum and Brown just take leaps forward and they did enough on the fringes or just like

organizationally just putting those guys in the best positions and like finding like the appropriate leadership and whatnot or whatever needs to happen in order to fix this team where this could easily be a top four team in the east yet again next season. Like I'm looking around there. Like there seems to be in the east like Brooklyn, Milwaukee and Philly probably going to be

very good yet again. But like after that, it's like the Knicks. It's the Hawks. Like all those teams seem to be pretty good. And I could see the Celtics just institutionally like as they have pretty much to the past half decade just being successful because of defense and some of the other things they do. And because of Brown and Tatum, who are probably the best young wing combo in the league, unless I'm forgetting someone.

No, because they hired the best general manager president on the market is why they're going to be so successful next season. I will say, like, Kemba just completely opting out of his contract and just, like, taking the money or asking for a buyout and running, does make that deal for Horford look a little bit worse. Like, I doubt he would have done the same thing in Boston because he probably would have been in line to have a more successful season rather than playing in Siberia,

where they're just trying to take as much as possible. possible, but like that does look worse for the Celtics now. And our guy, Brad Steven. Well, so, Justin, you're not putting the heat in that kind of like lock of top tiers at the Eastern Conference? Sure, yeah. I forgot the heat. He should probably be in there.

But, I mean, like, the Celtics are the type of team that could grind out in the regular season and maybe vault over one of those teams. Like, maybe Milwaukee, like, takes a little more easily. And then the type of team that we'll talk, we could talk ourselves into giving the Milwaukee's and the Brooklyn's a hard time in the playoffs if they're healthy, right? Like, everybody seems to be high on the talent that they bring to the table. And, you know, I'm waiting for said talent to materialize in a way that makes them perennial contenders.

And from this conversation, I don't think anybody on this call thinks the Celtics are a lock to matter in the postseason next year. Right. But the way that people talk about their two guys, the two kids, you would think otherwise. You know what I mean? You know, even Bill brought up the fact that Darrell was out of his mind for disrespecting Boston with a Simmons deal that involved Tatum. You know what I mean? Like, are you shitting me? Like, it's Jason Tatum.

Like, but, you know, maybe next year is the year where their reputation sort of justifies itself, right, where they actually are the reasons solely why Boston is a team who matters. We'll see. Yeah, those guys are good enough clearly to get them to consistently a three to five finish in the east. The question is, do Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum have upside left

to get you into those top tiers of the Eastern Conference? I think that's a big jump to make from, like Jason Tatum is already very good, asking him to become basically a top five player, top eight player would be kind of the next evolution of his game would be a lot. And so then if it's not those guys, it's like,

do we think Rob Williams is going to elevate them to that level? Do we think, but this is what I'm saying. Like, I don't see how, if the Celtics are at point A now and point B is true championship contention, I don't see how this composition of players does that.

And as Cantor's back. Yeah, so. Third string center. Brandon's can't try, I forgot. Hey, Peyton Pritchard is showing you that he's too good for someone. So, you know. Right. I mean, they do have some smart bets on certain players.

Like, they brought Josh Richardson in. And, like, maybe he refines what he had in Miami that he couldn't find in Philly and Dallas. You know, he had struggles with COVID last year. Maybe that ends up being what dictated his poor performance last year. I mean, Aaron Neesmith's a guy who could shoot the lights out next year. They have made all of these young picks. It would be nice if they finally bore fruit. Like I've been hearing so much about Romeo Langford for what seems like 10 years.

Like it would be nice if you played some meaningful possessions for this theme. They have lots of good players. It's just Milwaukee and Brooklyn are really good. You know, like there's, I just don't see how you're bridging that gap. It's a big prove it year for both Tatum and Brown. Like Brown is like, I mean, if he were to hit the market tomorrow, you'd be a max player. And like so like you would want both of those players to play up to that expectation. So we'll see.

But I don't know. I'm a little bit more optimistic about the Celtics than I. expected I would be at this point. Oh, here's a question I had just related to this. So Victor Oladipo is probably the other guy who really took a prove-it deal this year going for the minimum to Miami. Seems like he has a much more crowded pathway to meaningful time on the court in Miami than Schroeder does. And the Celtics is a little bit more of a seamless fit. Was, who are you, who's more likely to make good on that bet on themselves move here, Oladipo or Schroeder?

I mean, you have to say Schroeder because he's not dealing with the physical stuff. He's not dealing with not being up to the task of performing in a way that we've seen him perform in the past, right? Like, there's nothing physically stopping Dennis Schroeder from being as good as he was that year CP3 was on OKC, right? Like, there's nothing stopping him from it. Whereas with Oladipo, and that's what makes his story a little bit more depressed. It's like that guy who he was when he got traded to Indiana, you know, he left the clutches of Russell Westbrook and turned into a guy, an all-star and all-N-B-A type of level of player before his kneecap busted up on him. That was an exciting player. that was a contributor to important winning type of basketball, right?

Like his skill set, even if it was a little oversized on an Indiana team that was kind of overperforming their talent. And, you know, you're probably asking Ola Dippo to do too much. But it was like, it was a revelation. It was like, holy crap. Vika Ola Dipo is living up to his top five NBA, pick pedigree. You know, that's what he was doing back then.

And then he got hurt and it hasn't been the same sense. And it's hard to envision him getting past that. He hasn't looked like that guy since. You know, he went out with the, was it a broken kneecap is what they called it? He went out with that injure and ever since he hasn't looked like that dude who was, you know, given the LeBron and the Pips, Cleveland Part 2 team, all

kinds of fits in the playoffs. Like, he hasn't looked like that dude since the kneecap. So, you know, in an ideal world, he would be 100% physically fit in hell yeah, he could make, he would make Miami super interesting

if he were that player again. But he hasn't been since the injury. And I don't know why we would think that he's going to be going forward. But I'm rooting for it to happen because, you know, in our work, we meet all kinds of people, players, coaches, agents, whatever. And there's only but so many people who their personality kind of like hit you. Like, wow, that's like a really positive, upbeat, energetic, fun person that you want to root for.

Ola Depot is that person. Like, he is such a dope dude. You know, you want to see positive things happen to somebody who's like that. So I'm rooting for it to happen. Yeah. I'm rooting. Oh, man, silky smooth voice. So I'm rooting for that.

I'm rooting for that to happen. I just don't, I don't think it's going to. We're just at the stage where we have to see it in terms of him being physically able to do this anymore. And it's not just the fact, like, there are lots of guys who are hurt and come back. Kevin Durant, prime example, we had no idea what he was going to look like. But what made Victor Oladipo good was that explosion. He would literally rev up and blow past people.

And on defense, he was just like a roving free safety of a defender who was, like that was how they used him. If you can't move, if you can't explode off that leg anymore, if it's, you know, just change the way you navigate the court, you have to kind of reinvent your game.

You have to reinvent your appeal and your value to these teams. And maybe he can do that, but we absolutely have to see it. versus Schroeder is inconsistent, and that makes him less reliable overall, but he's just a season removed from being a pretty useful player for OKC. He seems like the easy bet relative to these two options. So as the dust is kind of settling here in free agency, seems like we're pretty much done outside of some trades that we all expect to happen,

Damien Lillard, Bradley Beal, Ben Simmons. I'm sure we'll get a lot of bursts of news over the next couple of weeks, but we'll wait until that actually susses itself out before we dive back into that again. But the West in general seems to be in an interesting place, pretty much regardless of what happens with Lillard. It just seems a little bit more wide open that I think I was expecting coming into this season.

The Lakers, it seems like we talked about this last week, seemed to have solidified themselves as probably yet again the top dog. But I think what we came out of last year's final Scott last year like last month's finals saying was that the suns would have a difficult time repeating what they just did, right? And I'm looking at the standings and some of the moves that were made and thinking to myself, they're probably the safest bet outside of the Lakers to come out of the West again, considering what teams like the Clippers lost in Kauai Leonard, probably not playing the season.

Jamal Murray coming back in Denver. Jamal Murray not coming back probably for a little while here. The Jazz kind of replaced guys that they lost, but didn't take a step forward. Dallas didn't have the offseason we were expecting from them. So, was my question to you is, are the sons yet again the biggest threat to the Lakers in the West? I know what a big fan you are, Phoenix. I want to give you this opportunity.

Listen, I'm a fan of what they did this year. Shouts to Monty Williams and the job that he's gone in there and done. You know, the cool thing about Moni specifically is we don't think. of coaches as people who have the ability to get better, right? We tend to think of players that way and nobody else. But Monty Williams is proof positive that you can be better as a coach. You can improve as a coach. And what he's doing in Phoenix is cool.

It's dope to watch. Now, if they played Dallas in a playoff series, would I think that they were like the overwhelming favors to beat them? No. I don't think they're better in the Llan. Lakers, I didn't think they were better than them this year until Anthony Davis, you know, was cooked. I think Golden States better, quite frankly.

That's the big one. And I put them in, you know, our piece is my most interested to see what they do because, yes, the Raptors won the championship in 2019, but before Clay went down, the warriors were giving them everything they could handle without KD. and it was basically because they had Steph and Clay Thompson. Like, that's it. That's what they had to offer. And that Raptors team, people got to understand, like, that was a legitimate NBA championship contender level team.

They were better than the Bucks that won it this year. They were better than the sons who they played in the finals. They were an upper-tier type of talented NBA final. level team and the Warriors without Kevin Durant were giving them the business, right? So you don't think the sons are at the level of a Raptors and you don't think that they can do, the sons can do the same thing. I don't, because I don't think, because, you know, there's something to be said about having a player of the caliber of Kauai Leonard in the tightest moments of the game, right? Where as much as I love Evan Booker, nobody thinks he's as good as Kauai, right?

There's something to be said for having that level of player on your team when the shit hits the fan, which that's what the Raptors had. And again, the last time we saw this version of Golden State, meaning the core three, they were giving the Raptors everything. Right. And so Clay's going to be back, hopefully this year. Of course, after two major injuries, we expect him to be a diminished version of himself. but man, that's exciting to see those guys get back together and do what they did, do what they do. So, yeah, I don't think Phoenix is better than them or the Lakers. Obviously, most people think Kauai's not going to play at all this year.

But if he does, if he manages to come back in April or March right before the playoffs, they're better than Phoenix. I think Utah is better than Phoenix. I just, you know, I'm more bullish. on those teams than I am the Phoenix Suns. I think the thing that helps the Suns, but it really helps all these teams, is just that there's no compelling favorite here, period.

The Lakers are the closest thing, I think we have, but even they have a lot of questions. We're going to need to see that team in action. See how their defense comes together in particular. But regardless, it really looks like there's a good chance that the West is going to be won this season by a really good but kind of imperfect team. And that's what the Suns are.

And that's what the Jazz are. And that's what the Warriors could be. you know, that's what the clippers might be with a kind of half speed or three-quarter speed, Kauai. So there's lots of teams, I think, that could talk themselves into saying, oh, this is another year where we have a shot. The scottor buddy who has some of the league, though, is like, I ain't playing this year. I think that's the most likely outcome. Yeah. When's the last time he exceeded expectations on the injury front?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't feel too confident about that one. But it's nice to see him with his teammates. Can we circle back to the Warriors, though? I feel like I need to be sold a little bit on why this team is going to be so dramatically better than last year's Warriors team. You know, I'm operating under the assumption we don't even see Clay on the court for the first couple months of the season.

And then once we do, he's not full speed two-way Clay Thompson. And if you don't have that, what have they really done here to solve their most glaring problem, which was the idea that defenses can overload on Steph and you don't have enough scoring threats outside of him to really challenge them? Like Otto Porter Jr. and Andre Aguadala are not changing that. I think that's what you're betting on is the idea that Clay Thompson makes them special on offense again. Makes them a team that, you know, it doesn't matter the matchup. They're going to go out and put some numbers up there. I think that's what the theory of this team is.

It's error-defining offense that they were, you know, before the Clay injuries, that most of that is still intact. And if you're error-defining on offense and can get to pretty competent levels of defense, that's a pretty winning formula, right? And, yo, that remains to be seen. You know, Clay Thompson was guarding LeBron in Westbrook and KD, and he was their best wing defender while also being this all-time great shooter. Is he going to be able to produce like that when he comes back?

Who knows? But it would be pretty fun to see it happening in. Well, speaking of guys you want to root for. I mean, I just want to see, I don't know if you guys have been following along with Clay, you know, bumping on his boat, making the cross bay commute to the Warriors practice facility every day. But it's quite a saga. Right. I mean, they're also counting on just internal development to a little bit.

Like maybe James Wiseman just isn't a complete net negative. He could just be like a neutral. like rim protector who runs the floor a little bit. Like that would be a huge upgrade. Jordan Poole is kind of solidified himself as a six man type at worse, who can come off the bench and provide a little bit of pop there. I think my concern is that if they do want to go the developmental route, if they do intend to keep Kaminga and Moody and Wiseman and these guys aren't just like

placeholders for Bradley Biel or Star Player X to be determined in the trade market, I think they're going to have to give significant minimum. to those guys to develop them. And as we've seen year after year after year, every rookie pretty much is going to be a negative in the balance sheet. And so that's going to drag them down a little bit. And I do wonder after a year of doing that this year with Wiseman,

our staff and Dremont and especially Clay, like clinging to whatever left he has of his peak, like are they going to be okay with it this time around? Like, there's a big clash between those two ideas. Well, it does seem, I mean, they've completely reworked their coaching staff to take a more developmental bent. To me, that says they're trying to,

both that they're conscious of where they came short last season, which is, I think, a very positive thing, but that they're trying to align and trying to walk that line between, you know, like Moses Moody, aka Moses Modi, aka whatever else Kendrick Perkins said,

he seems like the kind of player who can step in and give you minutes off the bat while developing more slowly behind the scenes, while fleshing out his game. Jonathan Cumminga is the bigger question mark. I don't even, is that guy a big in the NBA?

Is he like a long, small forward in the NBA? I have no idea what his kind of application is. And they're going to try, I'm sure, a variety of things and roles. And the flexibility that Draymond gives you, for example, can give you some options there. But I don't know. Those are the guys I would worry about. And Wiseman, too, like, yeah, we want to pencil in another year of development. But his first year was so up and down.

It was derailed by injuries. He was a pretty significant net negative when he was on the floor most of the time. I don't think we can just take it on faith that he's going to be. even a neutral NBA player. Well, one of the teams that we did kind of allude to before and that I'm really intrigued to see what happens is Dallas. I mean, we did talk about them as something of a loser this offseason because they weren't able to get another big fish to go next to Luca.

But I look around and like, I feel like they acquitted themselves well enough. Or the guys that they got fit at the very least, this idea that if you just put shooters around a dominant ball hand or like Luca, like good things can happen. I almost wonder if I agree with what Rob is saying about development not being linear. in the case of Wiseman, but I do feel like with Luca, you could assume that he's going to get marginally better. And so I wonder if that alone is enough of an edge

to vault them into that elite tier where it's like, yeah, maybe Phoenix and Utah have similar regular season's success, but I wonder if Luca is the edge in all of this, where he could just, as we saw, he could almost win a playoff series by himself

against one of the best teams in the league. I wonder if that alone vaults them, maybe even above the wars at this point. I mean, to me, bring those kind of guys into your building is that, you know, they're going to be able to overcome imperfect rosters. Whereas like, you know, I feel like Phoenix is an expertly constructed team, right?

When we talk about everybody contributing, the sum being greater than the parts, et cetera, et cetera, like, that's Phoenix. That's what they are. but the variant on Dallas being well, Luca might drop 50 on you tonight and find every single open shooter in the process. That's a variant you can't plan for, right? So I'll always be bullish on Dallas for that reason. And because, you know, I'm a New York-based guy. I will always invoke KP in any Dallas conversation because the idea was that this guy was a fucking perennial All-Star, that he was an all-MBA threat every single season.

And we don't even think of him like that no more. It's almost like he's an afterthought now. If somehow he can get even close to what was expected of him when they got this trade done and everybody assumed that it was going to. to be conference finals from here and two eternity because of it. We don't even think of him that way anymore. If he could get to that,

close to that level of output, you know, they're clearly better than a team like the Suns whose second best player is 50. See, I think the Suns just have more stability to the point where, for me, the top tier of the West is the Lakers,

the Suns, and the Jazz. And they may swim around each other all season and change, order. I don't know how that's going to suss out. And then if you're getting into the next tier, I almost want to put the Mavs in kind of a tier of their own, just because I honestly think if you put them in any seven game series, they can win it against any of these teams in the West. Like they have that ability where the Nuggets don't. The Clippers without Kauai don't. The Warriors, again, I'm probably more of a skeptic on the Warriors front. I want to see what they look like and

what Clay looks like. No, no clue. But if he is, he's going to be on his way back and not quite full Jamal Murray. And so then, you know, I don't think the Mavericks can make it through the West. The way they play is just a little too reliant on the outside shooting, a little too reliant on randomness,

but they can win any one series. That's what makes them so dangerous. Is there any team we're forgetting in this mix here? Like, are there any dark horses that you guys are expecting to maybe take a leap, even if it's not even into the elite tier?

Like, do we have any faith in the Grizzlies? Do we have any faith in? New Orleans and Memphis? That's what you want? New Orleans who is deathly afraid that their young player won't accept $200 million from them that team?

Listen, Trey Murphy hit a lot of three-pointers the other day. I don't know if you heard. But this is what we're talking about with the Lakers and the Sons and the Jazz and why they should feel pretty good is there's no one threatening to make that jump right now. The only teams,

if you look even top to bottom in the West standings, if you were going to project who's going to make the biggest jump this season, I mean, maybe the wolves just because they're getting healthier. But I don't even think they're going to be necessarily a bubble team. Hey, I'm an Anthony Edwards. I'm a fan of his. What his ability. I really think he has special ability.

And I love that he's parents. with a stretch five that can, you know, mitigate the problems that are presented when your lead ball handler, dominant on ball guy isn't a knockdown shooter. You know, when he's running and picking roles with the best shooting big who isn't Dirk Novitsky ever, right? Like, that mitigates so many of his weaknesses. And I think he's going to be way better next year. year. And it's going to be cool to watch Will it translate into the Wolves being, you know,

a legitimate playoff type of team, a 45 win type of team. I think that remains to be seen. But I think people should be excited about Anthony Edwards and what he's able to do next year. Because, again, the context works. You know, he's not going to be asked to be their dominant pick and roll operator as far as setting the table on offense, getting other guys involved, whatever. He's going to be asked to pick his spots and be like, all right, right now I'm going to cook, and that's going to be fine within the confines and the context of the Timberwolves offense. So I'm excited about what they can do next year because I think their piece is fit. Like, I'm never been a DeAngelo Russell guy.

I never will be. But, you know, Anthony Edwards is a special. talent and it's going to be cool to watch him do it next year with a healthy roster. And again, like I said, one of the best shooting big men we've ever seen. Well, plus, you don't want to bet against a player as he said, multi-talented as Edwards is, you know, already said he could be a pro baseball player, said he's working on his bowling all summer. He's swimming like Michael Phelps in Lake Minnetonka.

He says, I mean, that's a five-to-a player right there. Right. I don't know, man. I've bet on the wolves and the Carl Anthony Towns resurgents. Way too many times at this point. I don't know how I feel about that. I mean, if we're looking at teams that could potentially over exceed. Remember, they had a top five orphans with Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio on the court.

We were talking ourselves into that. They were a playoff team. They were a playoff team with Ricky Rubio. That's true. I mean, Denver could be better than we expect just because Porter could take a lead and fill the Murray void a little bit more. than we think. I don't know. I can see them still being, they still have Yokish. He's the MVP and he's going to turn them into something there. So maybe that. I'm a little surprised that we're all still pretty high in the jazz considering what happened to them in the playoffs. It's the type of thing where

like right after that Clipper series, you want to just tear the entire team down, but now that we've had a couple of weeks to step back and look at it, you're like, eh, maybe the best approach is just to roll this really good regular season team back and just see what happens. Like it's possible the matchups just work in their favor, like a series with the, with the lake, who are pretty much reliant on their size might go a little bit better for the jazz than something against the Clippers who are playing Terrence Man at center.

Like, I don't know. Like, I'm not feeling as bad about the jazz as I used to. Well, the Clippers were one of the worst possible matchups for them. Now, that's not an excuse for failing to close out that series after Kauai goes down. That's awful. But if you're them, again, I can see you rolling into the season saying the Lakers, their whole season just got derailed by injuries last season.

What if that happens again with LeBron at his age? looking at the sun saying, you know, maybe we'll roll the dice with Chris Paul and, you know, him not being the same player he was last season, not being able to provide in the playoffs the way he did, or, you know, D'Andre Aiton not having as exemplary a postseason as he did. I can understand wanting to make those bets. And especially with the field as open as it is, take the sure thing. Take the team you know can be a pretty good playoff team, a really good regular season team, and see if this is the year you can put it together. And meanwhile, while all this is happening, the thunder are executing a tank, like we've never. ever seen before and are going full Sam Hinky and nobody is going to say a word about it because everybody likes Sam Presti. So keep an eye on that one. Like there's literally nothing different between what the Thunder are doing and what Sam Hinky did. And it's just like ridiculous because Presti has years in the league to buy him cover for

what he's doing. I think that's less about Presti and more about Hinky. And like the Sixers did not invent tanking, you know? No. I've spent so much oxygen explaining to people that learning that losing gets you better lottery odds and so therefore makes it more likely that you draft the next LeBrona KD is not inventive, was never genius, was always very cynical. And again, I talk about it all the time.

if you're a GM and you like having your job, you sell people on the idea that, no, this is going to work long term. It's going to work in 20 years. It's going to work eventually. I'm going to drive KD. Sure. Whatever.

I do disagree with it. I do think, though, when people bottom out this hard, people get upset. Look what happened with the Hawks. Like, they had to accelerate and ended up working out pretty well. But, like, they had to accelerate. accelerate things this off season because ownership was getting upset. People just, when someone is that bad for that long, people just like,

bad basketball, very, you're like, aren't we fans of competence? Why do I want to watch a bunch of G-leaguers play 82 games for an extended period of time? Why? I don't necessarily disagree, but what else are you going to do if you're the Thunder? Like, big markets had never had more cloud, it seems. They got to definitely worry about getting, you know, exemplary talent in their building. And the only way to do that is via the draft for them. Because like I said the other day, nobody's ever going to force a trade to Oklahoma City.

Well, and what makes these two situations different between Philly and Oklahoma City, you know, you have three ways to get good players. Free agency, trades in the draft. Not only are they going hard on the draft, they're going hard on the trade front, trying to get. all these picks in, not to use the picks, but to trade the picks ultimately. Like, they're hoping to trade for their guy, whoever that is. We'll see if they can pull it off, if those timelines align and whatnot. But this is more than just- Of the James Hardin trade.

This is more than just waiting for the, you know, a tank pick to pay off, I think. Yeah, not to argue both sides, but I'm a little dubious that like, considering most superstars have sign off on where they end up going, I, I am more that that approach might not actually bear fruit. But they've done, you know, the other version of the JV where it's like this guy didn't sign off on it, but we presented the best package and so we got Paul George, you know? So they've executed that type of thing. And of course, you know, they had Paul George and then they didn't.

Right. That looks worse now because now we have this reporting that apparently Russ was also angling to get out at the same time. He stayed. Russ stayed. Right. As he plays for a nice party. He stayed. In Oklahoma City.

Yeah. Yeah. It was very lovely for that couple of months where we all bought into that. That's the takeaway. Because everything is meaningless and everything is worse than you think. Five minutes ago, Waz was railing against the cynicism of what the Sixers were doing. Now we are just the all cynicism podcast all the time. And this is where we leave you.

my friends. All right, that's it for us this week. I am off the next two weeks. I believe Waz, you are as well. Is that right? Me too.

All right. So you will be guided by one Rob Mahoney next week. Oh, Rob, any thoughts on? How could you? It's going to get weird out here.

I don't know what's going to happen, but it's going to be weird. I was going to say, yeah, is the topic going to be like what sneaker sounds remind you of your childhood trauma and what that says about masculinity

in today's MBA? I'm going to choose to take that as a compliment what you just said. No, I can't wait for that explanation. You got a job at Jezebel waiting for you if you ever wanted. All right. So Rob will take you next week. And I think we're all off the following week.

So just a heads up on that. But you will have Sasha Ashall, who's brilliant production is behind this podcast. Yet again, thank you to Sasha. Congrats on your Lakers offseason. Until then. Rob will see you next week. Wad and I will see you in three weeks.