The Ringer NBA Show - The Champs Get Tough in Spurs-Thunder IV. Plus, Tiering the West. | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann check in on the West after the fourth installment of Spurs-Thunder and rank all of the teams in the Western Conference into tiers. (00:00) Intro (3:50) Spurs-Thunder (24:53:) Tier 1 (26:52) FanDuel ad break (34:46) Tiers 2 and 3(1:01:21) Bottom tiers Check out Rob's piece about the Spurs-Thunder rivalry here! Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Audio Producer: Isaiah Blakely Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Production Supervision: Ben Cruz and Conor Nevins Additional Production Support: John Richter and Chris Wohlers Social: Isaiah Blakely and Keith Fujimoto| The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. theringer.com Wemby vs. the Machine The Spurs and Thunder have all the ingredients to become the next great NBA rivalry Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Varyer and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. Gentlemen, I don't know if you guys did the same thing, but after our first pod on Netflix, I bought like $100 worth of moisturizer and underarm eye cream. I just, holy shit, that 4K really gets in there. Yeah, why would you need that, Justin? You don't feel, you don't feel great. You don't feel like you're glowing on a daily basis? I thought I was, but clearly I was not. I've had people give a lot of recommendations.

I've been seeking out recommendations. Unprompted? Yeah. Not unprompted, but it's something that I complained about previously. And they're like, hey, maybe you should try this, which is, I guess, a little pointed, but we're in there. We're in a new era. You strike me as a skincare guy. I don't know how you're going to take that.

But, I mean, is this your first foray? Like, you take care of yourself. Yeah. I think that's a compliment. But skin care, not a part of the ballgame? I didn't have a routine. you know, and everyone needs a routine, or so I hear. Rob, do you have a routine?

In life? No, just like a skincare routine. No, not particularly, I got to say. But I do think all three of us are walking into an endless stream of like, man, you look tired texts or comments from the people in our lives. So I guess I welcome it because what else are we to do? That's right. Any other thoughts and prayers from our first foray into big time TV? 4A into 4K?

Yeah. Look, this is where we live now. I think we just need to pretend that this is normal. To pretend that we are here shoulder to shoulder with the giants that are in the kissing booth, you know? Like, these are our people. This is where our content lives and breathes. Dare I ask what that is? You don't know what the kissing booth is? Yeah, I don't know that one either. Yeah. All right. Is this a reality dating show sort of thing?

No, no. It's more Y-A-Core, you know, more to all the boys adjacent. Look, it's a whole thing. We'll go down that rabbit hole. some other time. Okay. Rob is in touch with the youth. That's what you're saying. I know. That's absolutely not happening.

But I'm aware of what's going on in the culture. And unfortunately, that being aware of the culture is like 10 years dated. So that fits for, that fits our personal brand. I'm not in touch with the youth culture, although I would say that my favorite comment that we've ever received was after I randomly watched Twilight,

like in the October pre-Hlloween phase. And someone on our podcast was like, why did Justin log letterbox, log Twilight on letterbox with no comment? And I was just like, I'm out here doing the work, guys. Yeah. Do you want to defend yourself? Do you want to explain what happened?

No, it's a terrible movie. And I couldn't even like it on a even like ironic sense. But I don't think I'm going to continue, but I did it. The moment he started like running up the tree with her on her back, I was like, oaky dokey. That's it. That's what did it. While I'm accusing people of, or while I'm assuming I'm,

know people really well. I was going to say, Rob, you seem like a Twilight soundtrack kind of guy, right or wrong. Well, I mean, you know I'm a death cab guy, so I'm kind of grandfathered in. Yeah. Like it or not, I guess I am. But I honestly, I don't think I can name a single track other than that on the Twilight soundtrack. Are, am I missing any bangers there? I don't know. I just remember when it came out, I was appalled by who all was on it. I've never actually listened to it. Well, I will follow the two of you into the dark. You know, this is the kind of relationship that we have. God, that's a Rob. Sorry, that was a Rob there. A clever pivot.

On that note, why don't we take a break and we'll get into today's action. All right, big old slobber knocker on last night's slate. I have to say just to set up Spurs Thunder part four, even using the Roman numerals now because this is what this is. It's basically like a rocky movie. I felt that there were stakes to this game overall, Rob, but I don't know if there was as much pomp and circumstance just fanfare going into it as I kind of expected. This like even popped up on me like when we were planning the pot. It's just like, oh, this game is today. I don't know. Maybe because it's football season or maybe people are just like sleepy because it's the winter, but it just didn't feel like

the type of game I expected considering the first three. What were you missing? Like what is it that you wanted to be happening that wasn't happening? I guess I wanted just more lead up to it. Like just something in the atmosphere that suggested this game is as big of a deal as it is. Because in the NBA, this is the prime time rivalry going. It's probably the only rivalry that actually qualifies as a rivalry. Agreed. Yeah, I think it doesn't have the playoff track record yet. Obviously, these two teams haven't met in these forms. And so we need to see that. But the regular season buildup through the first three meetings was intense. And if anything, even though we didn't have that pomp in circumstance, Justin, I do feel like this was kind of like a be careful what you wish

for game where it's like, okay, San Antonio Spurs, if you're going to be a real team in the Western conference, if you're going to present as a legit foil to the thunder because of the way you match up, this is the level of attention and focus you get. This is what this feels like. And you could see the shift in the thunder in terms of, for example, like, how quickly they moved on offense, how precise and how crisp everything was. Like, there was no dancing with the ball. There was no surveying. There was no dawdling. We're just going at you every single time and keeping you in action and keeping you moving. And I mean, we're seeing kind of how the thunder respond to those challenges in real time. And they were not ready for this particular one.

Yeah, Kyle, did you keep track of the Doddles per 36 in this one? Doddles per 36, I think, is on Taylor Snar's site. Let me get that. It's proprietary catch-all. Yeah, this, it's interesting. You know, you were talking about, like, what really constitutes a rivalry. It was interesting to hear Reggie talk about that, saying that, you know, we need the playoff stakes to really sort of deepen the familiar. And the familiarity is one of the driving things here. Rob, you hit it. It's like whenever you're the new person in any fashion in any sense, whether you're a player that has it, you know, you come in and you're doing your thing. People are like, oh, you know, I'm not, we're not familiar with this yet.

Yeah. And if it's credible, if it comes in and you like stomp a mud hole in somebody's ass the way the spurs had around Christmas, I don't know what you're joking about rural. Let's just full stop right there. You never heard that one? You never heard that? Stomping a mud hole specifically in somebody's ass. Like, you need to walk me through the etymology of all this. I don't know. We were joking about how rural we were, and I think my ruralness is down in my DNA in ways that I don't even realize at times.

If you feel in froggy jump, things, expressions like that. But no, I mean, if you're, the familiarity thing, you know, the spurs came in, and it wasn't like they were just aimlessly dancing or doddling. They came in and they were cracking some skulls. And they definitely got the thunder's attention

because there was an interesting thing. And I wanted to, as a quick sidebar here, Reggie, please, it's Wimbunyama. Please stop saying Wimbunyana. He is hanging in there with that man. I thought, you know, to speak to the lack of dawdling, in those first few games, it seems like, and I tweeted out the stat about like what the typical mode of half-court offense,

the Thunder like to do. They like to get you in a ball screen. They like to the Shay isolation and the things that come out from that. The initial, you know, volley within the half-court, Wimby was really, really, really affecting that in significant ways. specifically in their two-point percentage that weren't getting in the line. It was kind of having them on their heels. And I just wanted to see if you all agree with this.

But I was noticing the Thunder were almost just kind of like conceding that first idea, where they were like, we know Wimby's going to rotate into the paint. We know, can we just skip that part? They seemed like they were a little more sure of their process about how to get good looks and good shots. Granted, they didn't shoot super well in the first half. But it seemed to me like they had a little bit clearer idea of how to go about their business. in this one. Yeah, I thought there were the two levels of that. The first level is overall, I thought the Thunderball handlers, including Aaron Wiggins, who started this game for Lou Dort,

came in, J. Dub did this. You saw it with A.J. Mitchell, with Caruso. Like, they just did a good job of, like, engaging Wemby, playing through the actions, keeping the spurs, like, tethered, and trying to pull along and keep up with everything. And they weren't just backing out out of fear for what Wembe can be as a shot blocker. Like, they didn't just let him kind of hover in the background and then Shea came in in terms of his attacking Victor Webenyama and I thought just all that deference was gone all that hesitation all of the fear of like is he going to get to this shot will he be able to contest my ISO all that stuff just kind of evaporated and it turned into shea dictating the terms basically whenever he wanted to especially in that third quarter where

he just lit everything up got to every spot he needed to like that's MVP shit to be able to do that against the best defensive player in the world in particular yeah And then they just mirrored it on the defensive end where I felt like Wembe crumpled to the ground, not just fell or got bumped over, but like almost folded like three to four times. And the fact that that third quarter ended with Shea basically knocking away, swatting away that Alupitamp, I think was like pretty indicative. That's like the one image that's going to stick with me for this game. It's funny like looking back at the NBA finals because you know that the Thunder are going to play physical, especially on defense. That's what they do. They just get into guys, especially with those perimeter dogs.

that they have, but ever since there's been those propaganda reels of like all those guys like holding all the Indiana guards and like actually grabbing their wrists on on drives. And I'll be honest, it's been effective. But this was a little bit different to that where I felt like they were kind of the bullies in this game, Kyle. And like, I also think having Jalen Williams to kind of feed into that, actually having a backup big man who could bring some umph also led to this collective thing where finally it felt like they were pushing back against a team that pushed them.

around three straight times. Yeah. Yeah, I think the asterisks have always been important in these matchups. You know, we got A.J. Mitchell back in this game, but in this game, you mentioned it. And this speaks to how many different looks the Thunder can credibly throw at you. You know, Hartnstein is not in this game. Lou Dord is not in this game, but they still have the depth to go out there and do what you were saying, which is punch first. I think that there's something interesting going on here. I think with, you know, OKC was more sure of their process. They were really physical. You were talking about the fear, the deference and things like that.

I wanted to add, too, I feel like Wimby, since the knee extension and the calf stuff, he seems a little less rangy and quick to the ball to me. And there were a couple times where I was, like, noticing that he, he wasn't going for things that he normally would go for. And I thought that that was playing a role also. But to speak to the thunder, yeah, I mean, they were just, I really want to see a segment, Rob, where you just point up and say, that's MVP. ship. Maybe you're pointing to a monitor or a graphic. I like that.

And you just, you know, pick out an MVP quality. But, yeah, other than that, I think that another thing that kind of jumped out to me is this just kind of further exposed that the spurs need to figure out the synergy between Wimby and Deeran Fox and Castle. Because you were talking about him folding up. I just don't, this is something I would throw to your all's brain trust where I'm like, I don't totally know that the usage doesn't look. bad on paper. Like it looks like where it should be. Fox is really involved. But it feels to me like they need to tilt this a little towards either Fox or Castle in some kind of different action or different approach because force feeding it to Wimby, the thunder to speak to that physicality.

They just have a personnel set to really load up on him in like helicopters around King Kong kind of thing where Wimby is like, they know where it's going. Does that work against King Kong though? Like the helicopters, you just swats him away. Pick whatever analog works for you. I just think that, and specifically early in the game, when Wimby is just rolling to the basket, he probably has the biggest roller cutter gravity in the league. Can they not do like a reverse Steph Curry kind of thing where they're really leaning into that?

And I just feel like they need to retool this in some kind of way that makes sense because OKC was really ready for it. Yeah, and that's like the Spurs just don't have a lot of experience, finding that balance, establishing it against elite opponents, and then changing it in the middle of a game as the situation demands.

Like they've been a really good team this season, but they don't have that real-time decision-making experience that the Thunder have or that other than the Nuggets have, for example. You know, like that's what comes with the real battles of the playoffs. And I thought you really saw it when the Thunder just threw, we're throwing out this one-two zone that mucked up a lot of what the spurs were doing and challenges some of that, not just the pecking order, but the flow of your offense.

You saw San Antonio's like, okay, we're trying to counter this zone. We're going to get the ball to Dylan Harper at the elbow. And it's like, all right, like, that's, that makes a lot. Like that makes sense on paper, but how many times has Dylan Harper done that this season? How many times is Steph Castle had to create from that spot at a standstill? And then you see those guys not quite knowing what to do or settling for shots. It all makes sense. But I think it's proof of with a team like the Thunder just when you think you have them figured out.

They can just change something up and you have to figure it out all over again. And that's going to be the challenge for the Spurs. That's how you prove yourself as a real contender. I'm glad you mentioned Harper and Castle there because I forgot which of the nerds online was mentioning this. apparently the NBA has this now like special deep cut, like even deeper cut advanced analytics where there's now a gravity stat. I hadn't seen this before, but the person who I think brought this to the table suggested that both Harper and Castle over the course of the season are losing gravity.

So perhaps they're not getting as much attention on the perimeter. That seemed to be the case, even though Harper shot pretty well from three and Castle did two. So maybe not necessarily in terms of results. But if you don't have to be like to fear those shooters, I think we're going to see. see this a lot and some teams we're going to talk about as we tear the West here, the Rockets first and foremost come to mind where it's like, if you don't fear those guys, you could really just load up on the biggest obstacle, and that's Wembe. And if Wembe isn't built to handle that sort of physicality, if anyone could pack in and not be penalized for it, it does feel like almost

like the spurs got what they did to the Thunder in previous matchups, where it's like, all right, let's see if you're kind of like if you shooters can really damage us in a way that we have to respect. And meanwhile, the Thunder shooters delivered one of their best overall performances. And it wasn't even that great, but it wasn't awful, which it's been consistently from three for the last few weeks. And so when you're getting multiple threes from J. Will, from Caruso, from Casein Wallace, like, that's huge. And I think when you're getting those threes and playmaking from those guys, really good secondary playmaking from them, I think it just depressurizes the whole thing. And this is, this is an area where San Antonio's offensive flow,

you know, we don't think of the thunder as this like immaculately clean offensive team, but they at least kind of know what other buttons to push in ways that the spurs don't just yet. And one of those buttons is you saw in this game, I thought the Thunder did a great job of like engaging the defense and then cutting backside, right? Like creating other angles of attack beyond just we're going to kick out for a three

and we're going to live and die with whatever that percentage is. And when you do that, all of a sudden those threes just feel like a little lighter. They're a little easier. It's not like Alex Crusoe can only stay on the floor if he goes two of six from three during this stretch. No, you can find other ways to score

and affect the game. And so overall, that ecosystem for the Thunder just felt so much healthier than it did in any of these other matchups with the Spurs. And the five out, really playing a key part in that, would you say? Because, I mean, Jalen being out there,

Hartnstein, not really going to take those threes. I guess that's a byproduct. I will just say, I never, ever think Arkansas, Jalen, I never think his threes are going in. I'm just like, I'll live with that. They aren't this season. Yeah. It's not a bad shot.

No, but just the success has... Actually, what's funny is I feel like we talked about this last year and then he had like a good percentage. But like this year it's down and but when he was taking him and this came, I'm like, oh, those are all going in. The shot was great. But he was awesome in this game. Like it's funny because every time we get to the deadline and we're going to do this again, it's like, oh, should the Thunder just solve this one little thing that they need because they could just do anything? And oftentimes it's the backup big man who has a little stress to his game. But they've always had Jaylon Williams. And if he could just play at this level and he had all these all

around contributions, not just the shooting in this one. Like, it does fill them out in the way that, like, if you really want to be a completist about the thunder, this is like the little, like, puzzle piece that they're often missing. Well, that's a reason why in a free agency, when he was due for a new deal, I was wondering, is anyone going to be able to pry him away? Because he could be someone's a great backup big. There's a great second string big for a lot of teams because of that change of

pace, because of the difference in skill set. I think he has to be the only ostensibly, like, third string center in the league who can give you this, like 11, 10, and 5 with this kind of impact. I mean, it was a tremendous performance that actually changed this game. So were we officially out of Panicked Zone with the Thunder? They lost a couple

games. They almost lost a couple games. They might not win 70. These bums. How much were we panic? How much were you panicking, Justin? Were you really buying into that? I think it was jarring when they lost those two games back to back, especially considering the competition there. And it just felt like

they were playing down to a lot of the competition that they faced. Perhaps that was just midseason malaise. Perhaps that was just Jalen Williams rounding into form. I thought he in concert with other Jaylon Williams had a really awesome stretch there in the third quarter. I don't know what is real or like what what's like a realistic like gripe with the thunder these days? Because you look at the record and the results and the statistical profile. It's like the same thing as last year where it's like you want to complain about like, oh, do they have the right metal? Do they have the enough experience? da-da-da-da, and you look at the stats, it's like, oh, this might be historic. And they're still, despite all of these losses, which were like two recently on a 68-game win-pace.

Yeah. There's just really not much reason to believe that that was anything other than a swoon. And I think we have a hard time with that of like, okay, it doesn't look great in the moment. What does it mean in context? What does it mean for the season? How much of this stuff is January basketball and how much of it is actually damning? It always felt a little more like January basketball to me. and expecting a team that was going as like full tilt in terms of their focus,

as OKC was for the first, I don't know, like 20, 25 games of the season, you're just not going to be able to do that every night out and that's okay. And you're going to be due for a letup at some point and that's okay. They're still the best team in the league. There's still definitely the favorites to win the title. I don't think we've seen anything to dispute that sort of standing. Yeah, and things change when people are coming for you. I mean, I think we've seen this, we think of this team as something that has

just materialized as a champion in the past year, which they were loosely resembled one the year before. They just needed to kind of, you know, tie some things up so that they could ascend to that next level. And they did. But I mean, they've been, this is a team that's been playing playoff basketball, you know, well into the late stages of the season for a while now. And it's a different game. And also you've got a fig factoring, you know, I mentioned them missing guys. They've had guys in and out the stasis also hasn't quite been where it needed to be. And, you know, Jalen Williams, this guy that we, you know, at the end of the finals, last year, we're just like, where could this go? Like, how high could this fly? He seemed more like

himself last night and very, you know, recently. So, and that's a, that's a huge, he's there, you know, we've waited for Chet to level up. I mean, I would say Jalen's their number two offensive guy, and that's going to just, you know, normalize them, stabilize them in a way that's going to allow them to kind of maybe, maybe pick up where they left off more so, you know, instead of kind of biting their time with their continuity and things like that. So, It was nice in this game that we got some legit Wemby versus Chet moments. Those are two guys who don't often guard each other directly on purpose. They, like, want them as back-line rovers for the most part.

But, you know, first minute of the game, Wemby gets Chet on a switch and drives and, like, extendo-dunks on him. And then we saw Chet turn away Wemby on a couple drives. We saw Wemby block a Chet Corner 3. It's just like, I mean, exhilarating basketball, you know, in a weird, unconventional, like, big tube guys in a parking, lot whipping each other kind of way. But I love seeing it every chance we get. What? Two guys whipping each other in a parking lot?

The inflatable like car dealership tube guys. Two guys are you doing? Two guys whipping each other in a parking lot is a very different visual display. I don't want to know what you do on Friday 9 in LA. No, I'm just, there was a

funny point in that game where you could almost see Chet go, I'm not speaking to the deferential thing. Maybe it was just me reading into it, but I thought that there was a moment where Chet was like, you know what, I'm not afraid of this guy. He was like, I'm going to start going at him.

It didn't go well. I mean, you could tell on that three-pointer, he was like, I'm taking this, fuck it. And Wimby just, you know, nonchalantly blocks it. But the other thing, too, is that like a big part of that run that OKC made, because this game was tied like 10 minutes ago in the third quarter,

Chet wasn't on the floor. So I think that just kind of speaks also to what went down for them lineup wise. Yeah, I, I agree with what you guys are saying in terms of the thunder overall. I would say the two quibbles I have are that the blueprint is kind of out in terms of how to beat them. And it's one that I think a lot of those Western conference like competitors that we're going to talk about here when we tear them can really press on, which is just like if the shooters aren't hitting, you kind of need Jay Wolt to provide the punch. And in this game, he did it.

And he's revving up to the point where it seems like he's being a little bit more consistent after being out for so long with the injury. But like long term, let's see him take and like kind of grasp the same leap that he had in the playoffs. And too, it's just, Chet just doesn't have the performances that leave no doubt, right? And this one was a particularly poor one. But even when he's playing well, like it feels like he's just sharper. He isn't overwhelming in a way that a typical big three would.

Like when you're watching the big three, he, I mean, completely different situation, completely different league. But it's just like you can feel like one of those guys could go off for 30 in any night. Even Chris Bosch in his limited role when he, when he just kind of like took a big old step back,

could do that, especially during Bosch time. Chetches just doesn't have those moments yet or at the very least they're not as sticky as you'd like them to be and at the very least that just like leaves this shredded out where it's like oh if the shots aren't falling which sometimes they don't

if J-dub isn't fully engaged which sometimes he isn't offensively it's like what's the option it's like that is when I start to worry I think they don't have that all three stars can go for 30 feel but what they do have that's different from even a lot of other super teams

is they have Shea going for 30 all the time. And Reggie dropped a stat in this game. They're like, I just hadn't fully contextualized that Shay is on pace to be the first player since Michael Jordan to average 30 plus in four straight seasons. And it's just like, this is just what he rolls out. Every night is 30 plus. And so when you have that, Chet can be a little more come and go. J. Dub can, you know, take time working back from this hand injury that's clearly bothered him forever at this point. And the Thunder offensively are more likely to be a, here's a guy with 30, here's two guys with. was 17, and here's three to four other players in double digits kind of team.

And by the way, they're going to hold you to basically the lowest scoring output your team has had all season. And when you have all that stuff going, it clearly works. But it is a different formula than a lot of the other, like, high-powered teams were used to. Yeah. All right. Should we start tiering?

I was to say that's a nice segue into the tiering, right? I would love it. One, right? Yeah. So we're about what? Halfway through the season does not feel like that. I feel like this is the start of because of the playoffs are a completely separate season. I almost feel like we haven't even gotten started yet, but based on the actual games played,

we're almost halfway there. So you know, Justin, do you not feel like we know a lot about these teams? Like, are you still waiting to have things settled in terms of how you feel about them? I feel like the deadline clarifies a lot of things for a lot of different teams because at the very at least you understand teams and tensions. Like we're getting into the back half of like, do they actually want it this season? Do they want to hit the button and really compete for something or not? And just some of these teams settle into a certain comfort zone, I would say,

Thunder, like some of these teams that really have nothing left to prove. And we kind of lose sight of some of the things that actually matter with them. Like, does two losses in December, in the late December, really matter for a team on a 60 win pace? It's kind of one of those things. Yeah. What about you guys? Do you feel like you have a grasp on the West at this point?

The middle feels murkier than ever. There's so many teams that have shown they can be great, but how many of them are actually great? I'm still kind of waiting for the dust to settle on a lot of them. So I feel like we might be an agreement on this. The first tier of the Western Conference, clearly the Thunder are a part of it. I think the Nuggets are clearly a part of it.

Would either of you dispute that? That's where it is for me. Just those two. I think the Thunder clearly won, but I also have the Nuggets as a clear two. So just two tiers with one team each. Oh, so you think you have the Nuggets in their own second tier.

Yeah, so the champs and then the number one contender, basically. I think that's fair, especially considering, like, we're going to have to see Nicole Yokic get back, we're going to have to see what he looks like, we're going to have to see the whole, I mean, they've had so many guys out all season in a way that, honestly, like, I'm amazed by their resolve and the way they've been able to, like,

improvise and duct tape their season together. But we haven't seen it necessarily in the way we've seen it from the Thunder. It's so funny to think about the, the nuggets as a team that, I mean, I assume you were talking about the nuggets when you were talking about their resolve and their toughness. It's so funny, like, what they were at the beginning of the Yokic, Murray era, where we were, like, these are just soft skill guys. It was just kind of, they were dogging anything in that series in the bubble against the clippers. It was like,

what's going on? And you're right. I mean, maybe it's just the wars have just, like, hardened and just kind of, like, callous these guys to where they, they know who they are and they know how to weather these kinds of things. But if you're going to separate, the only thing that would make me consider putting them into the same tier is how far that series went last year when the Nuggets basically had a ton of roster issues. You know, Gordon obviously was kind of dragging himself around there at the end of this season. You could even argue that they would have been, you know, even more of a problem in that series. And then the Nuggets go and they address some of their problems in the off season. So we haven't fully gotten to see them mono and mono in the way that the

Spurs and the Thunder has. So I can see that argument if you wanted to say like I kind of think I know who the nuggets are going to be, but in terms of what they've done, I could see it. I would put them together, though, with the Thunder in the top tier. I wouldn't split it. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fandul.

Fandle's putting you in control right from tip off. That's right. You get to choose your reward. Play it safe. Go for it. Feeling bold, that's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control.

No matter how you play, Fandul's giving you the power to choose your reward and own your game this NBA season. Head to fandul.com slash ringer MBA to make your pick, get in the game, and play your way. Must be 21 plus present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Opt-in required. Rewards are non-witrawable. Restrictions apply, including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements, and max-wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fandle.com.

Gambling problem, call 1-800-gambler, or visit RG-HaltHelp.com. Call 1-888-789-777, or visit ccpg.org. chat in Connecticut. So Thunder, or excuse me, Nuggets, five and three without Yokich. A lot of these games have been close,

but the fact that they pulled out some of these wins in close games is crazy. And we finally got... It's not just without Yokch too. It's Cam Johnson. It's like Aaron Gordon still kind of easing his way back. Valchunis. Christian Brown's given them nothing.

Like Valchunis is out. Like, they've had a lot going on and they've just been able to pull out these wins. If Jamal Murray is not an all-star, I might just have to like flip this fucking table. Like, he's been unbelievable this season. And we...

That's a heavy table. I don't think you could lift that. Come on. Come on. Let's see it. I've seen your arms. Do it right now. You got to get me worked up sufficiently. So I guess if you talk shit,

I don't know shit about Jamal Murray, I just might do it. Well, I think the big thing, Kyle, is we finally got the Peyton Watson leap, which is what, like 25 years in the making here.

So over these past five, he's at 25, 7, and 3. He was just player of the week, which is wild. Like, I know player of the week is like, not the biggest thing in the grand scheme of things,

But like usually... The Payton Watson is pretty big. Right. Like it's usually all of the players you're going to see in an all-star game. It's not like the guy that has been pretty disappointing and has been more of a prospect than a player, I think, thus far in his career. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

For context, this is Justin's way of guarding the fact that he is a Peyton Watson skeptic and has been for a long time. I feel like I was proven right up until now. Until the present tense that we live in, you know? I was just rating. him based on what he was given us. I was just calling it like I see it. That's what I do. Shoot from him. You know, some of us are visionaries.

Ultimately, like, is that you? Yeah, you're the nuts and bolts, Justin. You know, you're the... Justin and Santa Claus, remember the two non-visionaries. That's right. Two non-visionaries. We have to be big picture thinkers while, you know, like, I'm the Steve Jobs, you're the Wozniak.

Like, ultimately that's our dynamic, I think. We need the positive and the neutral charge, right? We need, you know, science calls for us to have some dissension. and push back and we move forward with the truth, which the truth, hopefully for the Nuggets, is that Peyton Watson is a steady contributor. But I do think that there is an interesting sort of talking about the positive and the negative. You had Calvin Booth, who brings in these young players trying to bolster this Nuggets core,

trying to usher it into this thing that can lift some to load off of Nicola Yolkich and their older stars. And then you had the sort of lack of belief with Mike Malone. And we see this with the established championship team for the older established coach. who had taken them to the top is just skeptical and has a very short leash and isn't giving them chances. I feel like some of the haze of the disbelief or the trauma of feeling like they'd lost their confidence.

I think if you're talking about Jalen Pickett, if you're talking about Peyton Watson, I think some of that's maybe potentially wearing off and we're seeing some of these guys have a newfound kind of belief in themselves, which could be a huge, could pay dividends. Oh, you just activated my sleeper code word by mentioning Jalen Pickett. I mean, it's looking pretty good.

Looking like a real playoff caliber rotation player all of a sudden, which is a huge development for a team that was already looking deeper than they were last year. Descute man's Andre Miller. Well, if we're doing Comst of former Nuggets Legends, the guy I keep seeing with Watson is like 2020 Jeremy Grant here to the point where like I actually went back and watched some of those games from the bubble or at least the highlights. I didn't watch the full games. I'll be honest. But it is funny to see like the development play out there because I remember Grant like I just think. of him is like the absolute best big wing defender who could do a little bit more there. But as I was watching him play offense, I was like, oh, this is a little jankier than I remember.

Like the shot was slower. And if you think back to it, like in the process era sixers, he was more of like a big at times. And they kind of reared him to be more of a wing to the point where now he's basically only shooting jumpers. But Watson is just almost the evolutionary version of that where it feels like he started that transition sooner. And so while he's not the most fluid shot maker, he hit a big shot last night against the pelicans where it was like a turnaround. And basically like we're watching the gears turn as he was going around.

But he hit it. And he has been hitting more shots across the board at this point. The point where like not only is his three pointer looking good off the catch, but also like he has this like little step back at the free throw line, which is like that's kind of advanced shit for a guy who's mostly or at least started in the league is more of like this big toolsy defender type. Yeah. I mean, if you haven't been plugged in on the Nuggets

and you're like, why are these guys talking so much about Peyton Watson? Like, these aren't the glimpses that made Justin a skeptic. Like, all of the pieces are coming together. This is a guy who's just like averaging 25 of a game out of the box right now. And so that is a different prospect. That is something the Nuggets have not had from any of their supporting pieces, really. You know, especially since they traded Michael Porter Jr. Like, that was a guy who could occupy that role.

Now they have, in theory, all the depth that they sacrificed MPJ to get and Peyton Watson coming along at the same time. It's a potentially like franchise changing, but also conference altering development. Well, depending on... And then you hope that the huge tank coming over the hill, Yokic, the, you know, perennial MVP, comes back and it all kind of stays

in the right balance. Sorry, Jessica, go ahead. No, I was going to say, like, it could be a franchise changing decision for somebody else this off season because now that they have the Christian Brown contract on the books, like they need to scrape together in order to come up with the money

in order to pay Watson. They can. They could just go into the big old taxes, but this is the problem with just paying everybody. I think we talked about it at the time, Rob, where it's just like, that's a pretty hefty little payday for Christian Brown, a good player who fits the vision of their team

and you want to reward all that stuff. But like, he seems a little bit more replaceable than what we're getting with Watson, who's like, he's like kind of not All-Star, but like high-level starter that every team is going to want. Yes. But it was a bet on what felt like at the time, the controlled certainty of this guy in Christian Brown

is a very good, very stable role player. Has not been that when he's been on the floor this season also has been quite injured throughout the year and is clearly dealing with all that. And Peyton Watson was the variable, right? Like he was the guy who we and they were waiting to pop. And now that he has, yeah, your chickens are coming home to roost. That financial balance seems a little bit difficult.

But also, let's not let them off the hook for the just pay him part. Like, they can just pay him. They can just eat it. And they should just eat it. I think he is becoming that good where the questions become a lot easier to answer, frankly. Well, it's like, don't gnash your teeth and wring your hands and hoping that these guys will develop. And then when they do develop, you get all been out of shape and not like we can't keep them around. Speaking of which, I'm up for a max deal and I just wanted to let you guys know, you should hear it from me that you guys, we can't afford to keep you.

So we're going to have to wave you both because, you know, I just, I got to have my money. So I'm sorry. I'm really sorry about that. I was expecting Rich Paul to mention it on his podcast that Kyle's looking elsewhere, actually. You know what I would do is send him to, yeah, I really wish, uh, I send him to meta. Yeah, well, I'll save that for another time, but never mind. Okay. So I had Thunder Nuggets in separate tiers, but those are my top two.

Rob had them in the same top tier. Kyle, you had Thunder in one tier, Nuggets in the second tier. Do you have any other teams in the second tier? No, I have, I have Thunder. and I was saying I understood your logic, but I have Thunder and Nuggets in the top tier together. Okay.

No, I think the, talking about the middle, I think the top of the middle here, for me as four teams, is extremely interesting, probably the most interesting tier in either conference. Okay. What, uh,

I have three teams in this one. Rob, what do you have? I also have three teams. Okay. Kyle, you said you had four. Do you want to walk us through who you have? Well, I considered having, uh, the Lakers in the box.

I was like they probably could be their own tiered. just because defensively, I do not trust them whatsoever in any sense. And I trust these other two teams or three teams both directions a lot more. So, you know, they're loosely in my second tier. Did you want to hear the rest of mine? Or how did you want to go with that? Yeah, give us the four. Yeah.

The Timberwolves I have in there, the Spurs and then the Rockets. So and then the Lakers were kind of, the deadline could dictate a lot for the Lakers. My trust in them could go up a little bit. I don't know how much is going to solve their defensive problems because a lot of their defensive issues are sort of the core of what they do well in the offensive in. And it's like, can you serve both of those masters? I'm not so sure. But those are those are the four for me. Yeah, I had the Lakers out as well.

Rob, did you have the same? I do. Yeah. So why don't we take the Lakers just because we're talking about them? They seem to be the swing team. There's a real sense of urgency last night in that game against the Hawks, which is pretty damning because there's a sense of urgency against the Hawks in an early January 10. in part because they got absolutely embarrassed in Sacramento last night. Both Luca and LeBron playing in a back-to-back.

Like this feels like the type of thing that you see in like March, where it's just like we need to like win this game in order to get this seed or a playoff. Sure. Playing spot, whatever. I just look at this team. They backed into a big three of like a passive vintage. And they're just dealing with the big three problems where it's like in the past, when you had a big three, you can count on two guys being there.

practically all the time. And they could just steamroll teams based on sheer talent alone. This is different not only because the context of the league is different. You can't really do that anymore, but also because LeBron is kind of a different version of what we've seen in the past. He's not playing back to backs. He is definitely muted at times. It feels like he needs to get up for the competition and not having Reeves, who has been like the big old juice, a lot of those lineups that don't work with LeBron are working with Reeves and Luca. It just feels like they just don't have the necessary guys around them in order to make this work.

Yeah, I think you're spot on about sort of the three-star problem financially because once you have this sort of setup and there are ways out of it, there are ways to massage it, there's ways to sort of change this a little bit if they would like to. But they kind of can't afford to lose any role player

and they can't afford for their good role players to not be good every single night. And who are the good role players? Well, I mean, for example, talking about like the damning nature of getting high. humbled by the Kings and then having a must-win game against the Hawks, Rui Hachamura was back for this game.

And they can't live without him in a lot of ways, even with Jake Loravia kind of coming on and playing relatively well over the last couple weeks. So, like, that's where you are, right? Like, the silver lining is maybe you're finding something in Luravia that can augment the team, but the reality is you need your Rui Hachemur is to be healthy and really deliver. You cannot afford to live with, like, the ebbs and flows of the Marcus Smarts

and the Gabe Vincent. It's like, they're just in such a tough spot where it, Luca can be amazing and it still might not matter. Austin Reeves can come back and be great and it still might not matter. Like, their offense is wonderful. But like Kyle, I just don't trust anything about who they are defensively. And I don't trust it because the balance of their team right now does not make sense until proven otherwise.

Yeah. I mean, you got that three-headed monster, even if it's clicking on all cylinders and they're playing at an incredible offensive level, you just the three guys that you're getting into business with here. I mean, and this was true when Luca was with Dallas. It was just a very precarious thing to build that team right and correctly

and it was tailored exactly to him. And you know, you were talking about having... What happened after they tailored it exactly to him? I'm a little fuzzy on... You know, I'm not sure. I might have to go and look that up. That wasn't documented anywhere, right? What happened with that? I don't think that was one of those things that was just

like completely off the map. But proceed. I didn't mean interrupt. No, you're good. Yeah, even if we get just crazy amounts of offense, it's just like you're getting into business with something that is problematic. The tradeoff is rough. We were talking about this all the time with players.

It's like if your tradeoff reaches a certain point of severity, it's a problem even if it's one person, much less with three. It's like, it's the conditional day-to-day thing of like what version of LeBron are we going to get? What is the schedule going to dictate that we do in terms of our urgency, like against the hawk? and then Reeves and Luca. Luca is just so come or go with it.

It's like we know that he can turn it on and be positionally smart. You see those picking roll guys that are savvy and think like, well, they could be able to do that on the other end you would think. But that's just kind of the conundrum that they have right now, which leads you to kind of questions about should they go

to something like severely structural can change the way? Like maybe trading Austin Reeves for Jaron Jackson and you know, something like that? Hypothetically. Right, purely hypothetically. By the way, that's a terrible, idea. I just don't get it at all, especially because LeBron is

probably, if he's going to be there, he's going to be in a diminished version or on a kind of a bare minimum deal next year or he's going to be elsewhere. Like, what? It doesn't make sense to me. Well, the proposal was not going to be to trade LeBron James. Right? Why is that, Rob? See, I don't know. Maybe the math just didn't quite work out with Geron Jackson's contract. But I will say it's,

Geron Jackson, not a good big to pair with Luca Donchich. Like, that's, we all saw the Chris. that's Porzingis experiment, it kind of worked to a point but had a clear limitation. I think Jaron would have a lot of similar problems. Yeah. I love, too, that LeBron felt the need to come out and say that, like, you know, I didn't want him to, I was just like, that's a purely a chemistry play for LeBron at this point, because it's like, LeBron, if anything, Austin is the thing that should be nailed down, you know?

It's like, I just think it's kind of funny that, like, he does at times still talk like he's the puppet master, and it's just like, LeBron, we're not on your timeline. anymore. Like, what you, you know, I just, maybe you didn't mean it like that. I was just like, that seemed like a purely, like, letting Austin know he's this guy. He's in such a funny spot in that way.

Because a lot of what we're talking about, like, LeBron has played pretty well, especially relative to what you would possibly expect from a star of his age. Like, he's been good. But he's paid a certain way. His reputation is as such where he, like, whether he demands it or not,

will be given a certain deference in various ways in terms of the way the organization operates, in terms of how his teammates behave on the floor. it's just a weird time and space for him and the Lakers in particular. And it's not really, I wouldn't even say it's his fault. It's just one of those things

that we've all ended up in this situation that no one quite expected. No one thought Luka was going to be here now of all times. And so now the Lakers have to figure out a way to make a coherent roster out of it. And they don't quite have that. They don't have a coherent center position.

The DeAndre Aiton experiences, I would say unfolded more or less as expected. Yeah, what's the self a... Blast, it is a word that comes to my... What were people expecting here? Like, it's January. This is what he does. It's not just January.

It's like you're a month or two in. You know, it's like the bloom falls off the rose so, so fast with him. Actually, this is going to motivate him to play better over the next couple games, and then he'll disappear again, and then maybe we'll see him a couple months later. This is just the experience. It is the experience. You just can't talk yourself into anything with him. And there's a reason why it's felt like Jackson Hayes has straight up outplayed him of late,

and it's just more useful to the Lakers in his. current form. And Aiden played pretty well against the Hawks. That was one of his better games, but the ups and downs with him are like a huge problem. Because of what specifically the Lakers need from their centers on defense and how much they need them to make up for, you can't be a come and go effort guy. You can't be a space cadet in terms of your focus and positioning. Like they need an adult. They need a professional at the five. And right now they don't really have one. And this brings me back to like the big three problem. A lot of these guys are just on minimums, make good deals. Like Jake LaRavia, Marcus Smart, Aiton's making $8 million. Like,

they're getting that sort of production from these sorts of guys because they were picked up off the scrap heap because you have so much money invested in your big three. And so like, is what it is. When La Ravia pops, that's like, that's great. It's like the Malik Monk one year deal and all of a sudden he gets paid in Sacramento. But a lot of times these guys do not work out. I think for the five specifically, I mean, if you want to look at super team models, the Lakers would benefit more from a, like a Joel Anthony type than they would from DeAndre Aden. Like if they just had somebody... Oh, I don't know about that.

Look. God. Again, the limitations are what they are. But I just want somebody who can be trusted to hold down very basic defensive rotations. And I've never been able to trust DeAndre Aden to do that. His coaches have never been able to trust him to do that. There's a reason why every DeAndre Aten former teammate, when asked about him, does the same kind of like hem and ha shrug the shoulders?

I hope all goes well for him. We wish him the best. This is just the way it goes. What if the Lakers even had like a cockbrenner? Like somebody that, like, I'm serious. Everyone had a cockbrunner. Something's not like this, but it's more just like this. Sure.

Even to speak to what you're talking about. Even a marginally high baseline or medium high baseline would be better than the ups and the downs. I don't disagree. It's just like what were the other options? Like it was going to be another kind of, pull there and just see what you can get. All right.

Let's move along because we did a lot on the Lakers. Let's talk about the Rockets. Please. Who I think we're hovering over that panic watch button just before a last game. They ultimately won against the Bulls, but they really did have to pull that one out. So they lost three in a row, two in a row in here in Portland. I saw one of those games live and then they lost in Sacramento. There was some like weird situation happening there where they had to stay in Golden State or they had to stay in the bay and then go to Sacramento in order to play that game.

I don't really know what to make of that one, but the offense just looks a mess. To the point where the two games important, I think we're pretty telling because you had Tari Easton complaining about zebras because Deni Obdea was getting to the line all the time. Then you had in the second game, Kevin Durant slamming the water bottle because basically he's the only guy that can do anything with any sort of consistency and precision.

Yeah. I want to talk about both parts of this, because you're right that the offense does look a mess, in particular without Kevin Durant. I mean, they just really suffer when he's not out there right now. They are imploding when he's not out there. And this was an offense that earlier in the season was able to overcome some of its like clunkiness on offense because of two things. One, the offensive rebounding.

It's been a huge story within Houston and their success this season. And the second part being kind of their defense compensating for it. And then overall, that combination was a winning one. I think there's something happening here where the bigger falloff in some ways has been that they are not an elite defense. defense right now. And so then all of the clunkiness on offense hurts so much more. You feel it so much more acutely when they can't grind out these possessions. And when Kevin Durant comes off the floor and they just die. And over the last 10 games, they are a plus 12 net rating team with KD on the floor. They are a minus 17 net rating team with KD on the bench.

That's it. And Alperin and Shangoon is missed here and there, but he's been a part of this too. Like those lineups with Shangun but not KD are not holding the water that they have to hold. Yeah, and I think there's a lot of different factors going on here with the defensive slippage. I just think that you really do need to, and people have pointed this out, this is an abnormally grueling road trip that they had been on. Like, incredible. Let's see, I had it written down here 12. I think it was like, oh, man, a huge percentage of their recent games have been on the road. I don't even know.

Where did I write that down? Oh, 12 of the last 16. Sometimes I'll write the word out and I won't be able to find that instead of the number. it's just a little insight into my notes. But yeah, that's really grueling. And I think when you're starting to talk about the wear on KD, I also think offensively they've been a little bit more clunky because when Shingum was out,

that kind of where did those initiator reps go? You don't want to overburden KD. Some of those have gone to Amin. And when Amin Thompson, as much as I love him, he's probably best suited as a transition pusher or a connector at this point because Amin Thompson initiated reps usually are like, very boom or bust. It's like he either gets to the line and gets fouled or finishes or there's

just not a lot of like counter stuff going on. It's either he gets there and makes something happen or it's a turnover. So you see some of the ugliness from that. So and that kind of hurts. But they are, the offense rebounding thing continues to be, I think, 42.5%. For sure. Yeah, just that's in the last 10 games, just off the charts, crazy stuff. They're going to continue to be a team, I think, that just kind of grinds out those extra possessions in the margins. Maybe once they get home and they get on like a more stable, like they could chill and relax a little bit. Maybe some of this will settle. I'm not super worried about it though.

I mean, are you all? I'm not panicking because I think they have such a high floor. But I do think that they could use a point guard. And I do think the Reed experiment probably hit its head on its ceiling. I think he's better served coming off the bench and providing some much needed stretch because the shots from the outside aren't falling at this point. So the two games in Portland, I watch both. of them, one live. They didn't have Shangoon in both of those games. So there's that caveat.

But just they seemed messy and chaotic and a lot of it seemed to stem from the fact that a lot of the initiation bringing up the ball was coming from like Tari and a men. And those guys just don't have this sort of like locked in. We know what we're doing. Like let's get into our set immediately. I have the tight enough handle to not be

disrupted by guys who were hounding me full court in order to really get things moving. And I also feel like it's fine if you're not going to shoot. the lights off. This has never been a high three point volume team. Right. But they were executing at such a high level. They were almost doing like what what Denver does where it's just like, it doesn't matter how many threes they're shooting because they're always going to get good three point shots. Now that percentage is falling more and you kind of need those guys to be able to like really

move and flow in the offense. And there were times where like Jabari like nobody was guarding him out there because they're just packing the pain against these teams. And he just like wasn't cutting open into open space. And so they really need an organizer. outside of Kevin Durant because it feels like they're going to him in large part because they just need some stability in someone who just like kind of

knows where to go on a given possession. For sure. I mean, I think you're seeing the limits of this sort of like bully ball like makeshift offensive approach. Right. Nothing is as you're saying just in like on time where it's supposed to be. The overall attrition

of having someone like Tara Easton bring up the ball even if it's like a kind of transition moment that then fades into a half court set, you're just going to lose like, two seconds off the shot clock when he gets pressure it, as you alluded to, by a defender. You're going to lose another second and a half when he can't quite make the pass that he needs to. It's like, those things add up, right? Like, there's just so many snags within the offense that, yeah, then you're getting KD bailouts

or you're hoping that these threes that manifests are going to be good enough. And Jabari just hasn't been good enough. Like that over 10 against the Blazers was haunting stuff. Just awful. Really, really bad from a player that I like and a good player on balance. But what's tough for Jabari is his offensive game is not. varied enough to overcome that kind of shooting. And he's a good, not great defender.

And so he's not counterbalancing it that way. And when all of that is true, you got to hit your shots. Like there just isn't enough propping him up in his minutes to support the fact that he's going to be a prominent part of this rotation, someone that they want to and understandably can trust most of the time. But these games have been brutal. Like, he just can't hit anything right now. I think you're hitting on it that, like, people, I think people underestimate those

little bitty, like, moments. where you just are shaving away seconds to, because the seconds are what allow you to keep your poise and do what you want to do. And you start to lose those and you're like, you're kind of pressing a little bit. You're moving fast. You know, mistakes are made.

But I think every, I always think of it, like every offense is like an engine and the components. I've never put together an engine myself. But if the pieces aren't quite put together right, you're just sort of like shedding horsepower. And I feel like for the, for the, for the, is that a technical term? Yeah.

Jake Al Ferrari over here. I have heard, I have heard. I have heard mechanic people in my family talk about this, and I kind of stole it, but I can't, I don't have the experience, so I can't speak exactly to it. But you're losing the sort of maximum form of what the thing can be. And I think this is reflective in the fact that the past 10 games on the season, they, the past 10 games, have been averaging 10 fewer passes per game than they were overall on the year.

So I'm just saying that in this sort of this time where they've been struggling a little bit, I think that is kind of a reflection of what you guys are talking about. You know what I read? Read's more of a two anyway, I think. I don't think they're leaning on him to produce and things like that. But I do expect it. I don't think that this has like disabused me of what I thought they were. I came into the season knowing that they were going to piece this together.

They probably need another handler. Are they going to do that? Who knows? I haven't really moved in terms of who my opinion of who they are. I just think that, you know, I think they'll, I don't know, will they make a move? Do you think they have to? Can I offer a half measure? Because I think a lot of people have been trade machining,

like a big old move, Derek White's or someone to fill the Fred Van Vleet role. Blasnick doing that. Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, Fred Vindvly also talking about coming back this season. I don't know what's going on with, like, the human body anymore to the point where Jason Tatum might be back next month. But I really... That's right.

But I really don't. What's going on with the human body is a great recurring segment for us. I think we should just end every show with it. That's, we need the explicit label on that one. That's going to be on red, that red YouTube thing. Oh, boy, red band. Red band.

But what about bringing, so Chris Paul couldn't finish his career with the Clippers, but what if he finished it with the Rockets? In a role, like, kind of as just like rearing these wings who they're trying to like force into more ball handling roles. Yeah. Because what they often need at times,

is those guys just be a little bit sharper is what we're saying. And you could basically have Chris Paul in the J.D. Davidson role that you played last night where it's like, you're an emergency guard, we'll use you when we need you. But more than that, you're basically an assistant coach. I think he and I mean might kill each other, like,

after two weeks. At the same time, though, perhaps there's a marriage of convenience where like, I think he may needs another voice there because his like Hardo's style, I think, probably isn't reaching what they need. Well, but if your Hardo style isn't reaching who it needs to reach is the solution to bring in another hardo?

Double hardo? Aren't she just kind of? I mean, maybe it does. Like, I love Chris Paul. I would love for him to find somewhere he can contribute. He was pretty brutal this season when he did play. And in particular part of the problem was he can't guard anybody anymore. And so all of the, all the things that are preventing Reed Shepard from being like a starter

for the Houston Rockets, namely the fact that Amyodoka clearly doesn't think he can guard anybody also apply to Chris Paul, but with none of like the shooting prowess. at this point. So you're getting some of the organizational skill and maybe some of the talent, as you say, in terms of just like bringing guys along and helping them understand what it is they're supposed to be doing. I don't know. I don't feel like the problem with the Rockets

is not that like someone hasn't talked to Amman Thompson or Tari Eason about what they want to do. It's that asking those guys to go against the grain of kind of who they are and the chaos they play with is a big ask. This team was supposed to have Fred Van Fleet. They were not supposed to be doing all this and yet they have to, and so we have to judge them accordingly.

I've wondered, is there a team that would put a value on importing Fred Van Blitz's sort of tutelage and just his wisdom as a player? Is there a team that could say, like, all right, we'll pay, you know, really, we're going to be, we know he's not playing this year, next year. There's an end to the runway we would have him. I was like, is like a C.J. McCollum type, somebody even like that? I know defensively, like, that's one name that came to mind for me. I'm like, could you, because I think it's like 25 for two for Fred.

And I was trying to think of like if there's comparable money out there. That was one name that came to mind for me. I think CJ's been quietly like pretty decent this season, like pretty good. But he is more of, not a gunner, but like he is organizing opportunities for him to score. Like that's the way he's wired as a guard. And so does he actually get people in place? I don't know that he solves what is the very precise thing that they need. I like the idea of trading for Fred next season for a team that needs the veteran leadership.

I guess the problem would be, I believe Fred's on a player option so you can dictate really the terms of that. And is he willing to just like change the back end of his career at this point? We should move along there. But before we do, I need to talk about like the fake beam that the rockets have instituted here. Sure. Where they're hitting a button. It's literally just what the Sacramento Kings are doing. But just smoke comes down.

it's a copycat league, Justin. It's embarrassing. Like, they couldn't even come out with their own different way of, like, deploying the smoke. Yeah. Like, we couldn't, like, pull, like, a rope or something. Like, we just need something different because this is ridiculous.

You're absolutely right. Like, the mechanism is important. I like the pulling the rope or, like, a big old lever, like something that is not just a button. What if somebody just, like, threw some kind of, like, a confetti ball up into the air? We could have Tillman Ferti to, like, shoot it with a shot. gun or something? Like something, the delivery system really does matter. Are we talking about just

like a loose sort of like flowing, like the smoke flows out or is it like a stream? It comes down from like the big old board in the middle. And I think the idea is they have lift off and that thing is like taking off almost like a rocket would. I mean, I don't know enough about modern space travel to know like what it is that starting the ignition. Like again, is it just a button? And if so, we got to do something more dramatic. than that. I would love a plunger, too. If we just want to do like a dynamite-style plunger, okay.

Oh, I thought you were, I thought you meant. Okay. No, I'm talking a demolition's plunger, although, you know, lift off and demolition two very different things. But point being, I think we're all on the same page, Justin. You're right, in this way you are a visionary, and we need to get you together with Rockets GameOps stat. And what about like a whole NASA thing?

You got the headset on, and it's like, 10, 9, and he was, where you have lift off? And like, you just like, click a button down. Yeah. I was going to say we could have, for T to also come out with a literal, like a toilet plunger and unclogged their offense. They could do that. Okay. A lot of options here.

So the last two teams in the tier, we talked about the spurs up top. I think we're all in agreement with them. The Timberwolves, all of a sudden, just looking like a paragon of consistency because this team. The day. Yeah. Like, this team in my mind. just seems like a little chaotic and has that like unbridled

like unkind of restrained energy that I think Anthony Edwards exudes and I think McDaniels at least with his play style exudes certainly not with his emoting but all of a sudden they're just like stable is all hell to the point where last night when Edwards didn't play it was only their fifth lineup starting lineup that they've used this season

and I was just like holy shit like all of a sudden this team is just like the picture of stability in the league. It's pretty crazy And I believe Rudy Goberra also didn't play in that game. And they just absolutely fucking worked the bucks. You know, like not even a real contest in that way. So what you're getting from the wolves right now, I'm tempted to bump them up a tier, honestly.

I'm tempted to say that they are like just a legitimate threat to almost everyone in the field because we've seen how tough they can play the thunder. We know how much of a problem they could be, even for a team like the Nuggets. Like, who couldn't they play and hold their own against? And they have been a little up and down to this point, but winners of six of their last seven,

Rudy Gobert is playing at like a defensive player of the year caliber level. Julius Randall very quietly, is just like one of the best one-on-one scores in the league right now. And that's just nothing. Wembe? What was that?

Defending Wembe? I mean, come on. Crucial possessions? Yeah. Yeah. They're getting that from Julius Randall. Nas Reid is rounded back into form after his early struggles.

And then you have Anthony Edwards to say nothing about like, I don't know, the Bones Highland minutes look pretty good all of a sudden. So, like, things are just really falling into place for the wolves in a way that, at least right now, they look as formidable as anybody.

And maybe some of the point guard, speaking again, of the ringing of hands and gnashing of teeth, was overblown just because of how much ant has developed. You know, I'm sure who wouldn't love to have another ball handler to another steady pair of hands. But I wonder maybe if we over blew that, too. And I was looking at their, you know, in the process of trying to address that problem of getting them another guy like that, I did have a moment where you, when you were talking about Randall, it dawned on me again. It's just wild how far we've come with him

where you're always kind of just like, well, I feel like in every situation, you were like, well, we could get rid of Randall. I think we could survive that. But with this team,

they need Randall. Like, I think they need to keep him. He's central to what they do. So 15 and 6 since December 1st, which is first in the NBA, the Thunder are 14 and 6. So they played one more game,

but like, this team has something. Top six on both sides of the ball. Like, they're crazy. crazy good. Why don't we take a break and we come back, we'll do the second half

of the West. All right. I have in my fourth tier three teams. Okay. What do you have, Rob? Well, this is my third tier because you had the nuggets

kind of staggered out. This is where it gets fun. Yeah. I think I know what's going on here, but I'll let you continue. Yeah. So I've got four teams in this tier, including the Lakers,

who we've already discussed. Okay. Kyle, you have... How many teams in this version of your tier? In this tier, I have two, I have two. The Lakers probably should have been in it, but this is a two team tier that I've titled, paddling like hell.

Okay. Yeah, I have fake contenders where I had the Lakers Warriors and Phoenix Sons. We talked about the Lakers at length. So the Warriors, things are going better, but like give me a fucking break, like Al Horford, Melton, both like stable veterans in a rotation. It seemed like they're doing well. we do this same segment two weeks, two months later,

and it's going to be like four different guys. Like how many different times have we talked about like, oh, buddy healed, like what he's like bring into the war's rotation? Like, Kaminga had his moment earlier this season. I'll be it briefer than anyone would have expected. And then like Pat Spencer all of a sudden out of the rotation. So like it's a snow globe. They need to do something at the deadline until they do it.

Like they're a fake contender to me. Yeah, I just don't see any argument that they have the requisite depth and pieces to be a team of actual consequence in this postseason. Like they just don't have enough guys. Too much falls on stuff. Everything is hard all the time, even when they're good. They have to work so hard to get everything.

And because of that, every time they get a little off balance as a team, as you're talking about, Justin, they just fall on their face. Like, they don't have the balance to stay upright anywhere on their roster right now. And so Jimmy Buller can be pretty good on a regular basis. Dramon can give them Dremon green things

rolling all the time in ways that, feel reliable and are nice to have, but everything else is so topsy-turvy. I would love to see them make some kind of move, but like, honestly, I don't see like the one defining option out there that's going to make their roster make a lot of sense. They just have a lot of incredibly, like, high variance players, not just in terms of shooting, but like effort, focus, just the overall effectiveness of their game. Like, everyone feels like a conditional player. Variance is such a nice way to put it.

You were talking about depth. When you have depth, you want it to be reliable. When we go and call your number, we want to know we're going to get this. And I was thinking, the reason I called this paddling like hell, I heard Conan O'Brien made this statement, and you guys, I think, will relate to this about when you're younger and when you're a younger team, like you're the spurs, but I think this is just true of any young person. It's just like life is this really strong current that carries you all the way. There are all these just kind of like checkpoints that are built in.

Like you go to school, you get out of school, you get your first job. And life is just this steady current that's moving you really fast. and you don't have to paddle at all. You're just kind of moving along. And then you get into your first job, and it's like, okay, the consistent things, the consistent markers that are part of being young aren't there anymore.

And I got my first job, but I realize I don't like it as much anymore. And I'm in my 30s. I'm like, oh, I got to paddle a little bit. So the Warriors, I think, are at the point where they're full on, they're like, we got to speak to them being like fake contenders. I think that they're just paddling so hard to be, even to even resemble a contender on a night-to-night basis.

And you were talking about somebody tweeted out a stat about like the shot quality, shot making disparity. The disparity of the shot quality and the shot making talent on the Warriors between one and everybody else is just bonkers. So, and you're talking about them making the trade. The thing that I don't understand is they keep talking about MPJ. There's almost like this really lovely entitlement. I know that our producer.

Well, who's the thing. Who is talking about it? Everybody's talking about it. Everybody's just talking like, it's a very like Lakersy kind of mentality where it's getting very sweat. out there. Do the Nets want Cuminga? I don't understand it.

Why would you? Michael Porter Jr. right now is better than Jonathan Cuminga will probably ever be. So what is that trade worth? I think the appeal would be the faraway picks at this point. Because if they're like doubling down or tripling down on the present, if Butler and then MPJ are what they're going to put around Steph for his waning few years in the league, I think then the faraway picks in the same way that the Nets getting the Nuggets pick, like that's actually a pretty prime asset. For sure.

Did you guys relate to the paddling thing at all? Was that just a total whiff? Oh, I mean, Kyle, what a dismissive sure of that one. That was editor Justin. I just imagine me writing that and Justin be like, no, I don't think. It's a long wind up, but we got there. One day, we were just like blogging

on the internet about basketball, and the next day we are in our mid-30s establishing new skincare routines for 4K. So like, yeah, we're paddling pretty hard right now. That's Justin paddling. He had that young, beautiful skin in his 20s. He didn't have to think about that shit. I'm treading and just hoping I don't drown at this point.

But yeah, I think the MPJ thing is out there. I understand it if only because that's what they can get after the thousands of Lori marking in like we need to get him. We might get him. Oh, no, we don't need him because we have Brandon Projensky like dance. Just get anybody. Just be a little bit better on offense and like see what you have here because this just isn't good enough.

And I just don't know how many electric seasons Steph still has in this because in the midst of all this, he's been great. Yeah, I mean, this is the dying of the light. Everyone is talking, Steve Curry is very open. Like, we are a dynasty in decay, basically. But now your front office needs to behave as such. Now you need to operate with that level of urgency where, yeah, it's going to hurt a little bit to give up some of these future picks potentially. But you got to do it when you have Steph Curry being this good on your team.

Like, you owe him that, if nothing else. So the only other team I have in this tier is the Phoenix Suns, which I think it's really telling. because as the John Morant stuff kind of unfolds, you hear a lot of people suggesting that they're more likely or they could end up with the Orlando pick rather than the Phoenix Suns pick as a result of the Desmond Bain trade when the prospect of getting a Suns pick

in this upcoming draft was like the big old asset that they kind of built the trade around. It's pretty telling at this point because I call the trailblazers when people ask me about them like the control group in the league because they will always give anybody else a good game except for last night, ironically enough. They're your control group.

I'd say for most of the league, too. But I think the Sons are just that, but a little bit farther along and healthier, first and foremost. But, like, this team plays hard as hell. They give everybody a game. They were in it last night against the heat. And I just love watching them. I don't know if we mentioned them in our league pass rankings.

I can't remember when we re-ranked them a couple weeks ago. But, like, Sons, every time they're on the dial, I'm like, that's going to be a good game because they play their asses off. I had them in mind for exactly that reason. Like they are an incredibly watchable team. They're also just really good. And like they, again, they behave themselves

with a professional level of regular season focus. Like they are not just showing up and going through the motions. They're giving everybody that fight. And because of that, they're the kind of the fire that's under all of these other Western Conference teams in the standings. Part of the reason we're talking about the Rockets and that feels like a potentially perilous situation is that they are up by just a scant margin over the suns to drop out of a secure playoff spot

and into the play. Like the Sons are the team that's coming for everybody. And they've done that on their own. They've done that by working hard and committing and finding ways to play together and every guy kind of stepping up

exactly when they're called upon to step up. They still feel like to me the kind of team that could and might just like ruin somebody's season. One of these other contenders we've talked about, the Sons just come on way too hot in a first round series, blow the doors off in games one and two,

and then all of a sudden it's too much catch up. I don't know that they can do enough ruining of people's seasons to go all the way on their own, but they're a danger to everybody, which is an incredible testament to what they've built and what they've done. I have the blazers and the suns in a tear that I call refusal to bend the knee, which speaks to what you all are talking about. Defiance, yeah. They're probably punching a little above, but I think that punching, that fire, that whatever you want to call it, is they have really found something with their culture here. They've really found something with an identity, whereas they, you know, the absence of it last year was just

really brutal and a real slog to watch, even though they don't even technically on paper have as much talent as they do. But I have them in a tier with the Blazers because both of those teams on a night-to-night basis like you were saying, Justin, it's just like, I mean, the Suns a little, record-wise, they're ahead of the Blazers, but they just make everything tedious. And whether or not that's going to equal, like, playoff success more than just like we escaped playing the suns rather than we just flat out beat them. I don't know, but that's kind of where I have in my tier. I think if we had recorded this two days earlier,

I would have had the Blazers probably in here because I do think they are primed for a good second half. They were on a five-game win streak. They've beaten a lot of good teams. A lot of their wins are coming against good teams. And Danny Obdi is just playing like an MVP candidate. Now the problem is Danny tweaked he's backed and all of a sudden everything just falls. And like they're still waiting longer than expect.

to get some of their guys back. Jeremy Grant isn't back. Scoo Henderson's not playing. Drew just came back. And so right now, I'm a little bit more unsure than I was a little while ago, but, like,

they could easily be here next week if Denny's, like, back thing just ends up being like a one or two game thing because I think they play up to the competition. I think they're, like, a good team that's going to overeat expectations probably coming into the league,

or coming to the season, sorry. I like and respect the Blazers a lot. I think the idea that they're on the level of a team like the Phoenix Suns, I get the spiritual comparison as far as like hard playing teams that really make you earn it but these are not the same thing

like these teams are in different places are they not? I don't think so you don't think so what's different that they just just don't think that the Blazers can win big games because they've done that

I mean we're talking about a team that's 24 and 16 versus a team that's 19 and 22 I mean just based off those are different worlds sure I do think the sons have had unique health

in that they've lost Booker O'M for a stretch, but like Jaling Green for pretty much the whole season. Yeah, but does Jilling Green going to help? Well, you don't have to make that argument with me, but it's a real thing. I think the blazer going by record, you're just,

yeah, that's all your, that's only, you're not doing anything of like this iteration of this thing is more evolved than the Blazers. Like, are you just. Record, point differential, the better defense, and that's the Blazers better side of the ball. The sons are better than them at their best thing

by a pretty significant margin. And offensively, multiple guys who have been successful one-on-one creators. In addition to better overall depth, yes, some of that is health-related, but there's a reason why, like, Caleb Love is playing big minutes for the Blazers and balling out, but playing big minutes for the Blazers. And he's not exactly Colin Gillespie. Yeah.

I think the defensive thing was they, the injuries they suffered early on really derailed them from what was going to be their identity, which was like that all-wing lineup with Matisse and Jeremy and Denny Obdia. Also, the other thing is, like, they've kind of found themselves, twice already within the season where they were one team coming into the year. And it seemed like that team was going to be pretty fearsome. But then they completely switched it to a Denny centric team where they're playing. They started very fast like in terms of pace.

Now there are a slow it down team spam Denny downhill. He's basically like any of the top guards in the league where it's just like leading the league in free throws, leading league and drives. Like he's even taking a leap since we talked about his double leap in this season. And so if we're going based off of like more recent results in what they could be when they get guys back, I think there's another level there that's, if not on par with the Sons,

I actually think they're more complete than the Sons who are a very Devin-Booker-centric team. They're quite Devin-Booker-centric. I mean, they're also Dylan Brooks-centric. It's not focused in the way that Portland is around Denny. But the idea that if the Houston Rockets played one of these two teams in a playoff series, which one would be harder,

which one will be tougher. I don't really think it's even close. And I love the Blazers. I love watching them. I have a lot of respect. I did. Don't pretend like you love the Blazers when you're picking the Suns over them.

The Suns are a better team than the Blazers. This is not a revolutionary stance. I think you're going up based off of results thus far rather than projecting with the Blazers having their full complement of guys. I think like the problem solving ability when they have everybody, Denny at this current state, Drew, Jeremy,

even if Matisse plays. Matisse is like, I don't know, he's had two separate things going on. We'll see. But like, I just think that they are more well-rounded and actually more flexible and actually better in a playoff series for that reason than the Suns, which are just like hardos who play, who are just going to like get after you. Like they rely on Dylan Brooks way more than a team should and I love it. It's fun as hell.

But like, he shouldn't be your like second or third offensive player. And who is the Blazers second or third offensive player? That's better than Dylan Brooks. Drew? we've seen what that looks like too. Drew is rock solid. Two-time NBA champion, Drew Hollow. I love Drew Holiday.

He was not the second or third option for the Boston Celtics for a reason. Ever heard of him? But he's playing a different role this year. Absolutely. He's been really good at it when he's been out. Again, I'm not trying to take things away from the place. You are.

You're taking away from me. You're backing me into this corner by putting them on a level they should not be at. Okay. Are we betting? Can we bet on something? What would you like to bet record? I would love this.

Some skincare stuff. That would make sense. You have to pay for my eye cream. Record from this point forward. Yeah, I'll take that. And also, I would add in that the Blazers have incentive to go the opposite way if things don't actually go right because they get their pick if they land. I believe it's lottery protector to maybe 15 with the Bulls.

And so, like, that's an added disadvantage for me. I'm still taking the Blazers from this point forward. But they've got a significantly easier remaining strength of schedule, too. They do. And that's also big factor in. like actual record and results. Sure. That's definitely a part of it.

This is the nerdiest thing. You guys arguing. Would we agree that the ceilings are relatively similar? We're just kind of talking about. No. What? I think if the Blazers, if the Blazers got into a playoff series

against one of these legitimately good Western Conference teams, that's a five-game series. If the Suns get into that series, I think it's like a competitive six. I think it's like a maybe you roll the dice in the four seven. Robert Mahoney. Come on, man.

It's one game. and I also don't even think that's true. I think it's actually pretty similar. Are you listening to yourself? If you think the difference between a gentleman sweep of the Blazers versus a competitive six game series is quote unquote one game. Like you know it's not the same thing. We're quibbling about a ceiling that's six foot, six feet high or seven feet high.

They will play harder than the other team. I'm waiting to hear an argument that the Blazers are better than the Suns and I have not heard it. We just did 20 minutes on this when we need to rehash it. We said lots of stuff, but I'm waiting for the one that makes sense. This is like classic you thing too because you bait you you anchor too much in what you've seen rather than what is like a possible. And like I'm using what has happened versus what could happen one. Somehow we flipped from the Peyton Watson conversation. I don't know how we did it, but we did it.

All right. Yeah, we will negotiate skincare terms for the Blazers versus Sun's bed. Okay. I wanted to make it clear. I wanted to make it clear also that in my paddling like hell tier, I also had one that I don't know. that you all are going to be prepared for, but I have the Clippers here, guys. The Clippers have won 10 of their last 12. This is one of the whispering, like, keep an eye on this thing and driving that is, uh, you don't just worry about the record purely because Kauai looks like

himself. Don't look now, 32.7 points. And this is in the, uh, during this stretch, two and a half steals, 3.8 assists, 7.3 rounds, 42% from three on 8.8 attempts. He looks like Kauai out there. Like this is kind of coming. This is kind of, and if it continues, I have them in a tier where, you know, I don't know that the ceiling is that much different from the Warriors, but it's kind of, they're similar to me. So I kind of have them together. I'm not mad at it. I just straight up have them in the tier. Like in my third tier, I have the Lakers, the Suns, the Warriors, and the Clippers. Like, I think the Clippers are just there. Like, that's who they are today is a team that if we're talking about what their profile is,

not only is it not that different from the Warriors? Is it that different from the Lakers? Like, elite offenses, disaster defenses, both of them are just kind of a roll of the dice against anybody. And the high-end talent on both teams is clearly what's carrying them. I have the Clippers and the Blazers in their own fifth tier as like a, eh? Like, good things could happen if they go right. So with Kauai, they're 14 and 15 the Clippers are this season,

which still not great, but would put you higher in the play in mix, two and eight without, that's really the season at this point. They are starting. Yes. So we'll see this a month from now. Yes. And there's a big old door open for them because the Grizzlies, I think,

are going to slide back. And speaking of them, I have them in tier six which I've labeled DOA. This is basically all the teams that are looking to punt or are punting just because of who they are.

I have the Grizzlies, Mavericks, Jazz, Kings, Pelicans all in one. I think the Kings and the Pelicans deserve their own little basement. The Kings are last. Let's just go to the bottom. The kings,

I have them in a tier called hopeless and helpless, they are at the bottom, because they have no excuse. At least these other teams are like, hey, we're wandering in the wilderness. They're old and they're wandering. So they're probably going to either die of, you know, at least these young limbs are going to get them out of

the wilderness. They might just... Wellness check on the Sacramento Kings, please. Yeah. Just beat the Lakers. Just beat the Rockets. Yep. Two teams who have been in dire straits, you know? Dennis Schrooter, just trying to punch people. Yeah. You don't fuck with the Kings, man.

maybe kind of punching people. The jury's still out on how much contact was made behind the scenes from Dennis Schrooter. But they have become the team that puts whoever they beat into full-on existential crisis. So credit to them for doing it, but there's a reason that's true. To me, all these teams

are playing for picks at this point. The Grizzlies have signaled that their season is over and the Dallas Mavericks may have also, question mark. I can't really remember where we ended up in terms of AD being on the team also being available.

Justin. Lies! It's very, very important to him that you know he does not need surgery. Don't put that in the paper. Don't write it. I just get picturing AD yelling lies and I couldn't stop laughing. Just him screaming. I don't know.

Lies! But it's crazy because the team that would need to trade for him would presumably want him for the playoff run once he comes back so the current timeline is reevaluated into six weeks which is already pretty deep into the season. So you'd want him for the playoffs, but mostly would want him for next season. And you'd also want to give him an extension. I just don't know how these three things can go exist on one

team. Like maybe the Hawks are that desperate. But as we talked about before, if I'm the Hawks, I'm actually thinking like, my future is Jalen Johnson and whatever this pick from the Pelicans is going to be. I'm not going to handcuff myself to 80s like 50 to 20 games a season. So I just don't see the partner. I get the incentive for the Mavericks of getting off of him because Cooper's been awesome when he doesn't play. He gets to step forward and really showcase himself. But like, I think this team is playing for picks at this point. And if they trade AD, I'd be surprised.

Yeah, I think we talked about this some in the last pod. But with an AD trade, you do need a little bit more bait than a team like the Hawks has to be better immediately. I'm sure Atlanta would like to be, have some meaningful momentum behind the back part of their season and really show what they can be. To me, this is why the Raptors make more sense as a potential trade candidate.

it. But if you're Toronto, are you betting on a let's talk in six weeks injury timeline when you have to make your decision before the trade deadline, which is before those six weeks are even up? It's just a lot. It's a lot to ask. And I think that's where the MAVs are with AD, where they probably should have done something, I don't know, a month ago, six weeks ago. Like, this should have been done and dusted. And instead, they've rolled it on long enough that there's been multiple subsequent Anthony Davis injuries that teams now have to consider. You guys have anything else on these shit teams? I think here's here's my reasoning for putting the kings and the pelicans kind of in their own floor of despair.

I think the only real argument in terms of grouping them, yeah, maybe the Mavericks are playing for picks. The Grizzlies are clearly in line for some kind of free fall. The Jazz, though, like, they know how to score. They're not like the Blazers, but they've been giving good teams or run for their money lately. They wish. Justin perked up. He was ready for you to go there. They are feisty in a way.

that I just don't assign the same weight to kicking the Lakers while they're down and beating a Rockets team that is spinning its wheels right now. I think the Jazz have weirdly been more competitive than those teams. All right. Jazz are weird. Jazz is weird. Because they have two arguably All-Star close to level players and then just this plateau

all the way down to like their 13th man. It's just kind of a strange, it's a strange team. Kyle, you're a jazz guy? You like a like listening to jet yeah what instrument was that uh i want to say i think it was closer to trumpet by sound by hand movements it was more sax it's true i mean you could have been playing the trumpet low you know oh that's right really feeling it yes kind of had keytar energy did you ever ever see those like uh hot keys did you ever see that like some toy company put it out it was like this red keytar thing and i really wanted one when i was a kid anyway yeah i'm a jazz guy uh

Somebody will dig up the commercial for that. Bill Evans, a lot of Bill Evans. Sure. You know, it's not Ahmad, Amad Jamal. You know, I love, I love some jazz. Just naming some jazz guys. Ariel Garner while we're at it. All right.

It's time to end the pod now. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia and Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Sunday. We'll talk to you then. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming.

Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Helpshelp.com. Call 188-789-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MDGamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling help line, ma.org or call 800, 327-50-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 18778, Hope NY,

or text, Hope and Y, or text, Hope and Y, in New York.