The Ringer NBA Show - The Coaching Carousel Keeps Spinning. Plus: Draft Deep Dive With Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann | The Mismatch

Episode Date: October 30, 2020

Verno and KOC discuss the breaking news that Mike D’Antoni is headed to Brooklyn (0:00), plus Daryl Morey’s move to the 76ers’ front office (3:35) and the Rockets’ new head coach, Stephen Silas (20:35). Then they answer a few listener questions (Hello, Hornets fans! You exist!) (27:30). After that, Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann join the pod to get deep into some draft analysis (48:30).  Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Guests: Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today on the Ringer NBA show, we are going to be talking about Daryl going to the Philadelphia 76ers. We're going to talk about the Houston Rockets hiring a new head coach. And we're going to have a lot of draft talk with both J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Charks, who are joining the mismatch this week. But before we get to anything, there was big news that broke this morning where Steve Nash, who was hired by the Brooklyn Nets, is bringing along his old coach to sit next to him on the bench. Mike Dan Tony, we wondered if he would be in the NBA next year. And in fact, he will be as an assistant coach for Steve Nash in Brooklyn. It really is like what Kyrie Irving said, Kevin. There's just all head coaches.

I mean, they're bringing in two really good coaches, Dan Tony and Udocha. And this is what, you know, a rookie head coach needs. and for Brooklyn, great for them and for us, great content to have the seven seconds or less sons reuniting with Katie and Kyrie and Brooklyn to try to win a championship together. Well, here's

what I will say. This is an absolute home run. It just is. And here's why. Because even if you have the institutional knowledge of playing in the NBA for so many years and you think like a point guard and everything, there are always

going to be a lot things that come about in situations in NBA games that you are experiencing as that guy for the first time. And you see this all across the board. I mean, even Phil Jackson had Tex winner on that bench. Steve Kerr has always had Ron Adams, right, on his bench or Mike Brown on his bench or Alvin Gentry on his bench. I mean, when you are getting into this, there is a skill set and there's going to be things that come about as you as you go through a season that you're experiencing for the first time. But if you have a guy next to you that's been through that same situation, 300 times, right?

Now you have that helpful guidance. And Mike Tantonie is well respected. Mike Tentone's been a part of all kinds of Team USA staffs. So I would imagine probably already has prior relationship with the two most important guys to have a relationship with on that team, which are Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving. And so, boy, I was shocked. I was shocked.

I mean, I figured Mike Deutonio be a head coach. And the Udoca hire cannot be overlooked either. He's somebody who was in the conversation to be the next head coach of the Thunder who still haven't hired a coach or the Pacers who went in a different direction. But he's another guy, a head coach, quality candidate, who likely will get a job

sometime in the near future, maybe as soon as next season. And you got to imagine that's the spurs connection with Marks. Yes. Yep. Right? Because Udoch is a really good coach. Yeah.

His name came up quite a few times over the last couple of years when there were vacancies. All right. Let's get into the mismatch. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and join him as he does every Friday. It's Kevin O'Connor from the Ringer.com, aka Kevin O'O. Bomber, Kevin O'Clointer, Kevin O'Compick,

Kevin O'O Camer, Kevin O'Campick, Kevin O'Chamra, Kevin O Candyland. Kevin O'Dracula. Kevin! I got my makeup on for Halloween, Chris. I'm not going anywhere. Just here to record the podcast with you. Wow.

You got dressed up just for the podcast. I wish I would have dressed up. I didn't know. It's okay. It's all right. Maybe another time. We could always do the week after Halloween. Who cares?

We can celebrate whatever, Chris. We can celebrate whatever. Well, we have had some news breaks since we, like, spoke big news in fact out of nowhere we find out that darrell moore is going to go and run the basketball side of things for the philadelphia 76ers he was not out of the nba for very long just a few weeks ago we found out that he was parting ways with the houston rockets and now by this week we find out that he is running things for the philadelphia 76ers um i was stunned when the news came across the wire

because this is not the type of thing that typically stays quiet. Usually there is, you know, these two sides are talking, the Sixers are interested in Daryl. None of that came out. It was just AJ O'Orginowski and the tweet and this marriage is taking place.

And so I will tell you, I was absolutely shocked. Did you have any inkling that something like this could take place with Daryl. There was like very subtle rumblings that something could happen. But I didn't know it was that far along and that it was going to happen as quickly as it did. You know, I believe it might have been Shams who reported that things did escalate in the last couple of days for Mori to head to Philadelphia. But, you know, I've talked to some people since that said this was probably in the works for quite some time, you know, around the time he left Houston.

And I believe he told for Tidda when he re-signed there two years ago, I forget who wrote it, but someone had it in their story at the time that Mori said, don't be surprised if at some point I want to go to the East Coast and work there. Interesting. You know, and ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the conversations when he was leaving. And this is just, this is not anything I'm reporting here, just based off putting, you know, one piece of reporting together with another, that it's. sounds like that maybe this was just part of the move here, that there was intentions to go to Philadelphia or take the time off. And ultimately it turned out that for him to go to the Sixers, he tried to hire Doc Rivers to the Rockets.

That didn't work out. So he's getting a coach who he wanted a coach who he respects and has a relationship with. And you know what, man, the Sixers for all their palms, all that they need to solve, they got two All-Stars. And it's hard to think for Darrell that he could have found a better situation by waiting a year or two or three or four for a better situation to come along to run a team again.

Yeah, and it's interesting that you say that about the East Coast because he got his start in Boston. He runs that Sloan conference every year up in Boston still to this day. His daughter has been up in film school in the Northeast, right, as we know. And so that's unsurprising that if you were not going to be in Houston, that he would be going somewhere else. I will say in the in the spirit of full disclosure, um, Darrell has been great to me over the years. And so after this happened with Houston, I reached out to him just to say, hey, good luck in whatever you're doing next, whatever. And in our brief exchange, he said, hey, um, look forward to working with you again soon. Maybe it

won't be too long. I didn't know it's going to be next week. I didn't know it was going to be the next week, right? Because, I mean, look, I have not been a huge fan of the Houston Rockets or James Harden, but I have always been a fan of Daryl. And when we talked about him on the podcast, I told you, no matter the franchise, that he took, I thought he was as important a piece as there was out there in free agency as it were. No matter the franchise, if he took it over, I believed he could build a winner. I think he is a great general manager. He has, reincarnated that Houston franchise over and over again. He is responsible for one of the greatest trades in NBA history in James Hardin.

Before that, he had a team totally full of grinders, and that was the Kyle Lowry, Shane Badier, Ron Artesse incarnation. He had Tracy McGarady and Yao. He had the James Hardin deal and then acquired Dwight Howard. And then it was Chris Paul. And then it was Russell Westbrook. I mean, this guy, this guy has dealt in superstars. circles over and over and over again.

And I don't, I don't know what franchise. I wouldn't believe in him being able to turn around. Now you take over a ready made one. I don't think you have that far to go to build Philadelphia to be a consistent title contender. And I'd imagine there'll be some quick work done even this very short off season. And you know, there was some talk yesterday about like, wow, what are we? match for him to go from Houston, who shot more threes than anybody, ran more pick and roll than many teams in league history and, you know, all the funky stuff that they did to push

the game forward with shooting and analytics and everything else. To go from them to the Sixers, a team with Ben Simmons, who is allergic to shooting threes, to Joel Embed, who shoots around 30% from three, to a team that lacks shooting, a team that went to the post. more than any other team in basketball versus Houston. They did not care about using the post. What a weird fit. But I feel like that undersells and overlooks Mori's history in that he chased Powigasol.

He chased Chris Bosch. He made it work with Yao Ming. He tried to make it work with Dwight Howard. He has sought out and found Biggs or tried to find Biggs with the Rockets. analytics doesn't mean shoot more threes. Analytics means find the most efficient ways to win basketball. And for the Rockets, when you have a guy like James Harden, one of the greatest, most talented scorers we've ever had,

that meant spacing, giving him room to get to the basket and create for others or kick out threes and everything that they did. With the Sixers, we'll see how this ends up manifesting. But it's worth noting, Juella and Bede every single year of his career has gotten better. better and better and more and more efficient from the post. This past season, he scored 1.1 points per post up in the regular season, 1.2 points per post up in the playoffs,

both of which are some of the highest marks, highest most efficient seasons we have from a guy in the Synergy Sports Database, which goes back to 2004 of high usage guys like Joelle and B. It was a great year for him. That is an efficient shot. And so with Daryl Morey now in Philadelphia, when it comes to what's next, I don't think step one of what's next is blow up the Embed Simmons combination.

It's not. Step one is you have two stars and you got to try to make it work with these guys and find the right pieces around those guys. And to me, it's been obvious ever since they lost Jimmy Butler. It's more obvious after they've failed, more now than ever. they got to get a guy who can run pick and roll.

Whether that's a Chris Paul or a Kyle Lowry or somebody, you know, from free agency or a lesser known guy, even a Dennis Schrooter. I'm not saying Schroeder's the answer, but you got to have somebody who runs pick and roll for you. And to me, that is step one here for the Sixers now is to find somebody who can get and beat easier shots, who can put Ben Simmons in situations where he's screening and rolling and picking apart defenses with the pass or scoring over the top like a Blake Griffin. That's what could unleash these guys, not getting rid of one of those two.

Maybe down the line, but not yet. Well, it's also, it will also be a quick order of business to find a landing place for that Al Horford contract, right? And I had a guy, Raoul who tweeted me, who brought this up. And it kind of stinks because I will tell you, I, I covet the deal. disgruntled buddy healed. I fancy that as a perfect fit next to John Morant in Memphis for a guy

that could just knock down open threes and that having to be his job, especially if they're going to sign back Donovich. But anyway, Raoul sends to me, he says, and I think you were tagged on it too. Al Horford for Buddy Heald in some kind of a deal.

And I thought to myself, obviously, that would be amazing for Philadelphia. I actually don't hate that on the Sacramento side. I I know the contract's outsized, but if I had, if I had Fox Bogdanovich, Barnes, Bagley, Horford, I feel pretty good with that starting five. That's a really good 10 seed. And it's actually, ah, stop, come on. I'm a huge Fox guy and a huge bag.

It's the West, Chris. I understand. I understand what it is. But I also think that they got next to Bagley, if you're trying to figure that. out because I'm not done with him. I'm not done with Moebamba. Those kind of deals are of good grief. You should be.

Anyway, anyway, I'm not done. When you think about things like that, and that's probably not the kind of return you're getting, if you do move buddy healed, you're getting something better than Al Horford. But the moving to Al Horford deal is something. And let me just say this real quickly about that Philadelphia team.

There was nothing on Wednesday night for the first time. in months. Like there was no live game on. Because I've been watching the baseball playoffs. I'm not watching the baseball playoffs. I'm watching the basketball playoffs or I'm watching some football game, college or NFL. I pretty well watch a game every night.

There was nothing on. On NBA TV, they were rerunning last year's Raptor Sixers series. And I watched it for a while. And I will tell you that as I watch that, I think somewhere along the way, like this, this constant talking about what Ben Simmons doesn't do started to overshadow what he does do because as I'm watching that,

it is one thing to watch a guy swallow up Kyle Lowry or something. But there were possessions where he just swallowed up Kauai, who was like Jordan-esque in these playoffs. Like he is like a 10 in everything except for shooting. He is like a 10 on defense. He is a 10 rebounding. He is a 10 passing. He is a 10 grabbing the ball off the rib and starting to break.

I mean, he is, I think that somewhere along the way, we lost side of that. And obviously he was injured for their playoffs this year. But just watching those games, boy, he is a special, special talent. I understand what he doesn't do. But I was just reminded as I was watching that, seeing. him in a high leverage situation that man this having a guy like this is such a luxury i just feel like the it's going to go way too far on what ben simmons isn't rather than what he is well with ben simmons you know i'm the dude who says ben simmons shoots with the wrong hand i hammer that all the

time and i think the shooting aspect is critical because what you can't do does matter and that can hurt you if you can't shoot in the half court it means you don't have nearly as much importance with your passing because you can't run pick and roll because defenses don't respect you. They don't respect your shot. If you can't shoot, it means defenses are treating you like a zero when you don't have the ball in your hands,

which can hurt spacing for others. And that matters a lot. And it's important that it changes for him. He does need to at least be average, you know, at least be, you know, like a 32%. Look, when I say, when I say he's a 10 and all those other things, he's like a zero when it comes to shooting.

outside of six feet. Yes. You know what I mean? You just need to be a threat to 15. You know what I mean? Three would be nice. I don't care about, I don't look,

I don't want Ben Simmons shooting low efficiency mid-range jumpers. I want him shooting average efficiency corner three-pointers. That's all I want. That's all I'm asking for. And when it comes to the idea of him shooting hands, I do think that could potentially be part of the equation in the future if it doesn't work with his left hand. Regardless.

I do think coming from me, coming from the dude who says that, I do think all of those other qualities have gone overlooked and underrated. Because with Ben Simmons, this season, according to B-Ball Index tracking data, he defended more all-NBA players, players who have been named to an all-N-Ba team than anybody else. He was one of the most versatile players in the league in terms of defending bigs or guards or wings, all different players in different shapes and sizes. We talk all the time about defensive versatility.

Ben Simmons can do that for you. If Daryl Morey wants to build a team without Joel Embed and with Ben Simmons as like a four or five next to a shooting center who's not a post-up player like Embed, it can work. But the number one thing is is when you have a guy like Ben Simmons with his shortcomings, that's why you do need to have one of those ball handling types. You got to have a Chris Paul or a Kyle Larry or Jimmy Butler, who they already had before.

And almost, by the way, almost beat the Raptors. That's right. They almost want it. If anything, no matter what they do with that roster, you know this. Daryl has proven over the years. He has the level of trust that he's the kind of guy that if he moved off one of those two, if they just decided they need it, he will get a huge star. If there's anything he's been proven to do, it is that he's.

can get you huge stars in the NBA. And you'll always have two. And by the way, you know, when it comes to that, he's going to try to make this work with the both of them. I was shocked. Everybody I talked to would be shocked if he traded one of them before or during this coming season. But in the future, if it does come down to Embed or Simmons, it'll be really, really

interesting to see what happens at that point. And for Daryl, you know, he's in a situation here where they have a lot of good to work with and there's some challenging pieces to work where they don't really have a young player with a lot of value. You probably don't want to trade Matisse Thibel. You get those two tough contracts with Harris and Horford, lack of cap flexibility for free agency, and it's a week for agent class anyway. So there's some challenges, but a lot of teams would change positions with the Sixers with the stars that they have. But for Mori, this is like a choose your own venture for him. If you're choosing a team in NBA 2K to play franchise mode,

The Sixers would be a fun team to choose. Oh, because you can go any different way with these young guys and with this organization. And I'm excited to see what moves they make to build around those two. Because it can work. It can work. It's just about finding those right pieces. And I'm not,

I'm not sure what's out there right now. Like, we don't know. We don't know if a Kyle Lowry could be available if the rap is reset. You're not that far away. You're not that far away. Hell, They had it with, if they ran it back with Jimmy Butler and JJ Reddick, they'd had a lot better chances past year.

It won't take that long. They could have it all, man. They could have it all. He will have them as a consistent, real, legitimate title contender. I believe that wholeheartedly. And I do think that that Philadelphia job is a great job to take over right now. It's going to take some work, but not a, not a ridiculous amount. Because they're not, they're not far from getting.

it right. They just screwed it up last off season. It's just you got to do some correcting there. The job he left just hired a new coach. And that is Stephen Silas got the job. He was with the Dallas Mavericks alongside Rick Carlisle. A lot of Rick Carlisle assistants in the past. I mean, look, you go back to that title team that they had, you know, I believe at that time, you know, they had offensive and defensive coordinators, as it were. One of them was Dwayne Casey. The other one is Terry Stott's. These guys obviously did tremendous in their jobs. And so Rick Carlisle assistants have gone on to have great success. And Stephen Silas is very highly thought of within NBA circles.

His father was a long-term NBA coach, and he himself has paved his own way. That being said, I think that is a tough-ass job to take over. I really do. not only with the personalities, it's just, I think it's hard to take over for a guy where the style was so distinct. And you built a roster based upon a style that was so distinct.

They're going to have to switch that around. There's going to be how they're going to play now under Stephen Silas. Also, it's always hard to bring in a guy that does not have had coaching experience to a team with superstars. It just is. It just is. We talked about that with Nash and Brooklyn, with Katie and Kyrie, you know, and now here in Houston. But ultimately, though, with Silas, obviously, like, it's collaborative in Dallas with their offensive system.

But I think there's a lot you can take from what Dallas did with Luca and apply it to what you can do with James Hardin. And you're still going to have the ball on Hardin's hands a ton. But to me, one of the keys for the evolution of his game next is taking what he did well in the past with Oklahoma. Oklahoma City and during his first two seasons in Houston. And that's working him off ball. Using off ball screens, Iverson cuts. Dallas did a lot of that with Luca. And I think if you do that with James Hardin,

it could alleviate some of the pressure that he feels off ball and kind of activate some of the stuff that has gone dormant for him for many, many years now. Obviously, he's had historic offensive scoring seasons. But if you're talking in the playoffs, you could have some variety in the half court. and if Silas is able to install some of those principles that worked with Luca with Hardin, and if they're able to make appropriate personnel changes, they're going to be right back in there. Yeah, the personnel thing is the big one, though, Kevin, because that's why I say,

like, okay, juxtapose that versus what Doc Rivers is taking over in Philly. I look at that and say, boy, it ain't hard to do better than what they did. They were a colossal disappointment with the 60th. Houston, I do think it's going to be harder for, you know, Hardin and Westbrook to have better statistical seasons, better seasons, and improve that team greatly with the roster that they had. I think they maxed out. I really do.

I don't think they should have been a lot better than they were. You know, Philly, they should have been a lot better than they were. Like, I'm not sure that Houston should have been a lot better than they were. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know how I feel about Russell Westbrook. And I mean, but he's on the team. Do you think they should have been a lot better than they were? I mean, I would love the trade Russell Westbrook if I'm the Rockets. Well, they might.

But I'm not, I'm not sure what the return would be. But I mean, that's just the way I feel about it. I'm not like, me with the next trade, their first round pick and some more for him. I don't know. I'm not sure. But to me, I would think about that. I'm just talking about Stephen Silas being able to improve that team. And I think it's hard to improve that team unless you make a lot of personnel changes.

because I think that team probably won the correct amount of games that they should have won. I don't disagree, but I do think you can improve them in the playoffs. I think adding some of that variety in what you do with your half-court actions on the offense event, that was one of the problems with Dan Tony at times. Was he he was rigid? Oh, yeah. And you could also, like, I mean, maybe Silas is the kind of guy that could, he could convince James Harden to not just stand at half court if he's not involved with the play.

Dude, like, by the way, I asked Hardin. this and players are all talk sometimes and i know you're joking here but with hardin i i have reason to believe that he doesn't always want to do that i have reason to believe that and and i think with hardin there is a a desire to to not always be the the orchestrator and when i asked him about that i forget that it was during one playoff round it was like what are your thoughts you know playing off ball and he gave some basic media answer i'll do whatever it takes you know to win games, but he kind of perked up, you know, when he said it. And, and like I said, from conversations I've had with people around the league, I do believe that he wants to

change and that he wasn't exactly, um, the greatest endorser of, of that system. Even though it led to great success, even though it led to an MVP campaign and should have been multiple MVP campaigns, I think that there is an understanding from a basketball perspective, that there needs to be less, less rigidness in a postseason setting. And that means pushing him off ball more often and not just having him stand at the half court, just not having him stand at the half court, but having him work off ball. And it's complicated because it works. I mean, they almost beat the Warriors.

They went to a game seven. They went to a game six before. It's not that it didn't work. If a couple balls bounced differently, if Chris Paul doesn't get hurt, they may have very well won a championship. But there's tweaks that Silas could offer to that system in addition to personnel changes that to me could raise their level even a little bit higher than that we've seen before. But we'll see, man, because I don't view Westbrook the same way I view Chris Paul.

To me, even though James Harder and Chris Paul didn't like each other, and that's why I didn't work, they were a better on-paper basketball fit. Westbrook's weaknesses as a shooter, they did not. defend him. The Lakers didn't. They didn't respect to shot off ball and that hurt their spacing that they need within that system. And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon unless Westbrook also changes some shooting mechanics. Stop, stopping so high. Maybe it relaxes a little bit like Rondo, like we've seen, like Jason Kidd. Maybe he does. Maybe. That's why I say this is, when you're talking about all these things that need to take place, that's why that's a hard job.

That's a hard job. It's a hard job. Because your expectation is to win big. It's a tough gig. And I don't know if that roster as currently constructing is built to win big. And by the way, like we saw the issues not having a big against Anthony Davis. Absolutely. And where do you find that?

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. And with both of these teams, it's going to be very exciting to see what they do over the next, what, six weeks, four weeks, five. I don't know. How long is the offseason? Hey, there's a big in Philadelphia. They need to move. Go for Al Horford.

Yeah. All right. We got to get to some mailbag questions because we did ask people to send in questions. Producer Sasha has them in tow. And I am told that our mailbag got filled up with Angry Hornets fans because I, I slandered them. I said, I don't. Yes, you did. Well, we never hear from them.

We never hear from them. from Hornets fans. But I guess I shook the bushes and here they came out. Yes. The Hornets fans. Well, trust me, we have heard from them now. They have made themselves heard. All right.

So what do we got this week? Okay. All right. Here we go. A lot of draft questions in relation to the Hornets. They have a little bit of an interesting draft season coming up. So this one's from Sean Jihad. He says,

What's up, fellas? proud yet embarrassed Hornets fan here. Yes, we do exist. My question is if that was a very common sentiment, by the way, is yes, we exist. Sorry. My question is if Charlotte ends up selecting James Wiseman, what are reasonable expectations for his first season? Are the Hornets not the best possible fit for him?

Oh, we've talked about this in the past, Kev. I told you. Look, Wiseman, he's been here in Memphis, where, I am. He played very briefly for the University of Memphis this past year. I do not believe, this is just my opinion. I do not believe that it is the best fit. I think that James would be best suited to go in a place where he can grow and develop rather than to put a lot on his plate as a franchise savior immediately. He is an incredibly talented kid. He's long, he's athletic. He brings a lot to the table. By all accounts, great kid. But I don't, especially now in the NBA,

I think it's really hard to be awesome immediately as a big. I think that has changed over the years. It used to be the big guy came in and was immediately awesome. Now we have seen over and over again, the league is more built towards the perimeter guys being awesome. Luca Donchich, Trey Young, John Moran. Think about these guys that have been amazing right off the bat. And some of the bigs, it's taken a little bit longer to develop. And so when you draft somebody right off the bat and then they're expected to be franchise savior, I think that's a lot to put on that kid's plate.

So I think, I've told you, I think the best fit is the Warriors, for sure, where he can got to blend in and develop, but I don't, I don't think it's the best fit in Charlotte. I wouldn't kill them for doing it. I just say, I'm just saying for if you want the kid to develop at the best rate. I don't think it's the best fit. I think that's going safe, but I don't think it's a bad fit by any means. I do think it can work with a Wiseman PJ Washington front court. Washington last season shot 37% on four three-pointers per game. He's a skilled big. And he probably could have done a little bit more in terms of facilitating. too if the opportunity had been there.

And I think those guys can work together and compliment each other well. So for Wiseman, in terms of pressure, that might not be great for him. But with James Borago coming from the Spurs tree and some of the philosophies that he has from there, maybe it could be a good thing for his player development. And for Charlotte, it's going to be fascinating to see what they actually end up doing. If they stay at three or if they feel an urge to move up to one, multiple league sources have told me that at three, I've already reported that they're like Wiseman.

I've heard they like on Yakey Okongwu, a big from USC as well, possibly at that third pick. And both of those guys, you know, I think Wiseman would have the title of like a franchise savior coming in. O'Kongwu, there'd be less expectations.

But ultimately, either of those guys, I'd be happy if I'm a Hornets fan. And it can work next to PJ Washington and Devante Graham. and with James Ruego. That's what matters, though, Kev. I don't know if it's a great fit with Scary Terry and Devante Graham. Are they?

They're not. They're not. But are they like, are, is Terry Rosier going to prevent you from drafting a guy that you want? No. No, you're going to trade Terry Roseier down the line. We're talking about him being immediately awesome. That's what the guy asked. And if you don't have a point guard that constantly turns the corner and throws up lobs to you,

I think it's hard to be. James Wise is not a guy you're just going to throw the ball to and he's going to go get you a bucket over and over. And that's not even how the NBA's played anymore. I think, I don't think you're giving Devante Graham enough credit. He had a really good year and a good year as a pass or two. Huh?

He had a good year as a passer. Devante Graham is better than you're giving him credit for, I'd say. He is a great scorer. He had seven and a half assist only, I think, 2.8. Well, hell, somebody's got to get an assist. I mean, what? They play games. What does that mean?

He's got a ball in his hand. I don't care about the numbers. The numbers don't matter as much as like he's a solid passer. He's not, we're not talking like he's Luca here. He's also not talking like, you know, you're bringing in Jason Kidd,

but DeVont deGrives on a bad passer. If you think he's a turn to corner, throw a lot of point card, then so be it. I don't. All right, real quick. Let's do a quick one from Chase Whitney. Any good fits at the horn,

any good fits for the Hornets at 32? At 32? I don't know about fits. I'm not sure you're drafting for fit. I mean, you're drafting for best player available. You're drafting wings. You're looking for like a Robert Woodard type,

somebody like that. I mean, I wouldn't say fit. Yeah, let me say this on the Hornets bath. Two years in a row, they've had my guy, they have drafted guys that were on my can't miss list. Miles Bridges and PJ Washington. So I've loved the guys that they've drafted the last two years.

that team is not deep. I mean, that team, God, they just died a slow death on the Batum contract the whole time. At one point, I remember this, Charlotte, the guys from Charlotte came into town and they told me they would trade Baton for Chandler Parsons straight up. That's how much they had, they felt like he was just destroying their cap and all their ability to do anything. And so now they got some calf space this year.

And so obviously you want to get somebody that's going to. be able to help change the franchise with that top pick. Hopefully you nail 32. You usually don't get some kind of franchise changer. But hopefully they can do something awesome in free agency too. You know? Because they're one of the few. Everybody talks about that there's not teams with money.

They're one of the few. They have money to spend now. Who was the team, the guy you said, Robert Woodard? Robert Woodard. 32? I mean, I'm just saying like not necessarily that you take that guy, but, you know,

a guy like that, a wing, Robert Wardard or Josh Green if he falls that far, which I don't think he will, but, you know, somebody like that, guys are going to fall. You just don't know. Hey,

when I was talking about turn the corner point guards, would that, would Tyos Jones' little brother still be there? Yeah, he should still be there. I don't expect him. Devin Dotson is another one from Kansas.

All right, Sasha, what we got next? All right. So we got a question from Noah Perser here. He says, what do you make of the relative silence we're hearing?

out of the Lamello ball camp. Anthony Edwards and James Wiseman's are beasts. Denny is apparently great too, but all we've heard from Lamello is the Puma signing and pulling out of the pre-draft process. You know what it means, Noah? He's a threat to fall. That's just the reality.

I just said how Okongwu is somebody drawing interest from Charlotte and number three. If Edwards goes one, if Wiseman goes two, O'Kongwu goes three. where does Lamello go? I had a phone call earlier today with somebody who works in the league for a team. And he and I talked a lot about Lamello. And there are a lot of people that wonder if he could fall outside the top five.

And Rick Binell, the finance writer, reported today that he hasn't done well in interviews. I'm not sure what to make of that report. But I've heard similar that he hasn't done great in these interviews and workouts and all that. So Lamello, as talented as he is, some teams are looking at this situation as maybe it's best to hit a single or hit a double rather than swing for the fences and possibly whiff. And with Lamello, there's that threat for him more than there is for some other guys in that top 10 conversation. And with Lamello, it would not shock me one bit and it should shock nobody if he's, goes one or if he goes eight, it could happen with him because the reality is, the mainstream

conversation says he's top three, consensus, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's no consensus. Some people have him ranked 10 on their board. Some people have him ranked two. Some people have him ranked seven. There is no consensus. But if he falls past Charlotte at three, I'd like to know where you think he goes because you look at Chicago, look at all the guards that they have.

and they also really like Denny Avdia at four. You look at five with Cleveland. Sounds like they really like some of the wings in this draft. They also have Garland, who they took last year and Colin Sexton the year before. You get to six, Atlanta, I mean, maybe they're a situation where they trade down and someone trades up for Lamello. Who knows? But the fact is, is Lamello could fall outside the top three when everybody's been talking about him as that guy. Boy, I'll tell you this, Kev.

That makes me think that we thought with Lamello, Mello and then we will see in the coming years. But you take those two kids that were amazing high school recruits, Lamello Ball and R.J. Hampton. And I hear what you're saying right now. And I look at these draft boards and I say, you know, look, I was totally supportive. Go make your money. Do what you want to do.

But there is no question. If you're right about that and he does drop. And I see where Hampton is that they would have absolutely been better off playing American College basketball for their draft stock. I'm just saying for their draft stop, right? For their draft stock. There's no doubt of my mind. Both of them would have been absolutely awesome in college.

But they went and decided to play over in the NBL in R.J. A man's league. A lot of hard-nosed players in that league. Oh, yeah. They're full-grown men, right? I mean, it's a lot to take on. And I don't think that you should be crucified for not playing great over there as a kid straight out of high school.

going from the frigging peach jam where you're playing against a bunch of high school kids to go in and playing against some 30-year-old guy who you're right um i think it's a big step up but i mean now with what you're saying if that's so it's hard for me to believe that lamello ball and r j hampton would have gone and played it wherever ucela and texas tech or it happens for that matter. Do people are, every clip I see is of James Wiseman like playing Oregon, you know, Memphis. There's like a five game sample size of his Memphis career,

but like people look to it and are impressed by it, right? And that was such a small sample size. These guys, if they would have gone and played big time college basketball somewhere, I can't help but think that their draft stock would have been better than what it is as it stands right now. And boy, I didn't realize that was going on with LaBello. I thought he was in everybody's top five. No.

No? No. Have you turned on him? I mean, I've never loved him. I like him. And I think I talked with Bill Simmons about this on his pod this week. With the Mello, the appeal is, as you have this wizard playmaker, you know, who can make passes that so many players can never dream of making.

But he also has never proven that he can be a reliable shooter. He has never proven that he can be a reliable decision maker because his shot selection is very poor. He has never proven he can be a reliable defender. He is, you know, aloof off ball. His effort is poor. And personality-wise, you know, in terms of leadership, as a point guard, you like to have leadership qualities. And there's questions about that being there too and how long way I take to develop. I'm watching the wrong videos.

He looks pretty damn good to me. I mean, he's a good prospect. But I'm just saying, like, that's what I mean. like some teams are like maybe we should try to hit a double or hit a single instead of swing for the fences maybe this is a year not to do that oh i think this is i think the total opposite i think this is the year to take the risk i mean some teams feel that way but i'm but a lot don't a lot look at this draft and they're like we can get a good player end a story like we can get a good player who maybe exceeds expectations or we can get a guy that might see

suck or could be great. Like there's a wide range of possibilities. Are you saying my draft article if I wrote it this year would be insanely popular because it's just a bunch of teams that want players that aren't going to suck? I mean, it might be Chris because there's a lot. Look, there's a lot of players in this class, man, that I'm like, he's going to be a good player. He's going to be a good player.

He's going to be a winning player and a contender someday. A lot of guys like that with the mellow, he could be a star if that jumper develops or he could be a guy that it's like if only he could shoot at like 38% from 3. But in fairness you would say he is in the very small handful of guys that you would

say I could see him being a star. It's not plenty of in this draft. This draft is not plentiful of guys like let's say and you just juxtapose that from the last couple of years. Even Michael Porter Jr.

We all sat there and said, bro, if it hit, like you could see him becoming a star in the NBA. Like, you could. And that, and he, and I know there was the injury thing, but I mean, he got drafted, you know, tail end of the lottery. I'll tell you what, you know, when it comes to the draft, I had one GM I talked two months ago say to me, I don't get why everybody's talking about Lamello is a top three pick. I don't get this.

And it feels like those conversations didn't happen at all with anybody else until like the past two weeks. And now those conversations are happening a lot more often about like, where is Lamello going to go? Interesting. Whereas Wiseman seems to be clearly in all likelihood of top three pick, whereas Edwards in all likelihood a top three pick. But with Lamello, there's not that certainty quite as much as there may have previously been. And we'll see, man. Like maybe Minnesota shocks everybody and just takes a number one. You know, like it can happen. But we don't know. And he is a threat to fall. And that's why I think that we haven't heard a lot. I can't help but wonder.

You know, the brother hit about two shots in the whole damn bubble. And if Lonzo would have been awesome and the Pelicans end up getting that playoff spot, I know we shouldn't do that, but I can't help but think that the intense failure of Lonzo and the perception that everybody has, his stock can't be lower than it's been in a long time on the brother. And it just, it's hard to not have that come into account. I know they're totally different humans. I know they're different players. They're different humans, but they also do share similar qualities. I was just about to say that. Like, they both have a personality issue where they're not really leaders and they're both point guards. And if the brother was amazing,

it would be a no-brainer on LaBello. And I think Lonzo was kind of a cautionary tale about the challenges of improving your jump shot. He changes his mechanics and he has a better year working, you know, with Fred Vincent, the Pelican shooting coach, and then he goes to the bubble and it all falls apart. And, you know, shooters can go through good stretches, but then their mechanics go away. And with Lamello, he enters the NBA, I think, a better shooter than Lanzo did when he entered the league. But the concerns are there with the jumper. He does need to make some foundational changes to the way he shoots and the way he sets his feet. in his consistency with his shot.

There's a lot of question marks. He's never shot high from the free throw line. It's not like he's an 85% free throw shooter. He's a low 70s percent free throw shooter. He's like a high 20s percent three point shooter. And you know this. And look, we're not speaking out of school here. There's a lot that comes with him.

The frigging dad's going to be on, you know, he's going to be on first take and that he's going to be on with Stephen A. It's all part of the equation. And Raven. The kid, you know, he's been in and out of the high school. They went overseas and they played over to Lithuania or whatever the hell he did. And then he went down and played in Australia. I mean, he does not have your normal story, right, of a kid.

You're not drafting Tyrese Halliburton. No. He was a basketball player. He was a, this kid was a YouTube star at 12 as this mini mite who's pointing to where he's going to shoot it, you know, 10 feet behind the three point line. I remember my son doing that while we were out on a court. This is when my son's probably six years old, seven years old, whatever it was, whenever he started watching YouTube.

And he pointed to the ground and shot from there. I said, what is that? And he said, that's what Lamello did. I'm like, La Mello. Don't do that. But he had watched highlight videos. Like, I mean, this kid has been having highlight video. How hard is it to have your head on straight if people have been watching your highlight videos?

since the time you're 11, you know? Bottom line with him, whether it's a shot or, you know, personality or whatever it might be, there is no guarantee he's a top three pick or even a top five pick. All right. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to be joined by two other draft Nicks. Jonathan Charks and Kyle Mann are going to join us on the other side. All right. Welcome back.

And the NBA draft is right around the corner. We brought in two other draft experts and we are going to discuss some of the prospects for this upcoming NBA draft. Jay Kyle Mann and Jonathan Charch from the Ringer. Join us now. What's up, guys? What's up, y'all? All right. So last night, I was actually flipping around and I landed on ESPN2. I didn't even know that this was going to be on, but this was a clutch production on television. LeBron James, I see him in the crowd. I see Anthony Davis in the crowd. And I'm like, what is going on? And it is a two-person workout that they are airing on ESPN2. for Anthony Bennett, who many people have had number one in the draft, and Tyrese Max. That's quite that throatian slip there, Chris.

Wah, wah, wah, wah. Well, that was good. That was great. So I flipped this on,

and LeBron James is in the crowd. Anthony Davis is in the crowd, and it is a two-man workout for Anthony Edwards, who many people have going number one in the NBA draft, and Tyrese Maxie, a point guard from Kentucky. And I watched this and I listened to their interviews after. And I got to be honest with you guys,

from just watching this television production that they were putting on, I came away with a higher opinion of Maxi than I had before and maybe a lower opinion of Edwards than I did before. And I know the whole gist of this, this is supposed to be like a trailer for the movie, right? And this is supposed to be a snapshot to make them look their absolute best. Maxi looked like he had fixed his shot to me, honestly, in the workout. And again, I know this isn't some kind of big competitive workout.

But anyway, did you guys see this? What were the biggest takeaways? And Kyle, I know you know a lot about Maxie being a Kentucky guy. I'm a big Maxie guy. He's one of those guys that I kind of think. about, I constantly ask myself if we're going to like kick ourselves for not rating him higher because he's just kind of got that he's a good kid. He's got like a really good middle game. I think that he's going to develop into a decent dribble shooter. I think he's going to be fine

as a catch and shoot three point shooter. He's definitely a guy that you could pair with like a bigger playmaker. You could put next to a star and he's going to like just generate offense. Like he gets in the teeth of the defense and draws fouls. He's got a great floater game. He's a crafty finisher. He's definitely one of those guys that I feel like we have in the middle that could shift to the top like five years from now when we're looking back. Your point about him being somebody who, you know, could potentially become that reliable spot-off shooter. You know, you know he grinds on defense. He plays really hard. He makes winning plays. It sort of reminds me of a couple years back with you, Charks, and your love affair with Shegildas Alexander at the time. As somebody,

who seemed like they had a foundation for long-term success in the NBA. With Maxi, you know, Kyle alluded to it with, you know, the shooting needs to improve. That's really the main question with him. Like it sort of was with SGA, do you think with Maxi that he is somebody that we're sort of overlooking here and should be a top 10 pick charts? I think with him it's more dependent on situation. Kind of like Kyle said about where he goes, playing off the star. Because SGA was 6'6, almost a 7 foot wingspan.

Maxi's a lot shorter, right? So he had a short combo guard, not really a point guard. He's just got to be in the right spot, right? If he goes somewhere and has to run an offense, distribute the ball, be the primary guy. He's not going to be very effective. And if he goes somewhere he has to guard twos and threes, he's just so small, right?

So he has to be a non-primary offensive guy guarding point guards. What do you think about this comp? How about Kendrick Nunn with defense? That's kind of what I'm thinking of him right now. That's interesting. I mean, look, I think to myself, I mean, geez, the, the, the, the, the, The track record of the Cal Perry guys has been outstanding.

It really has. I mean, you've got very few. Tyler Ulyss. He was just too little. He could have been good if he was bigger. I still contended that. He would be a star at six foot five. Marcus Teague was just not good enough.

But generally across the board, Archie Goodwin, if you want to throw him in there, you know, still kind of hanging on to a career. Playing with Killian, actually. Yeah, he's still. Yeah, but I mean,

But those guys weren't like lottery guys. Like there haven't been lottery guard busts that were the Calipari guys, right? I can't think of any. Malik Monk, but that's a different story. Malik Monk, but that's not really... He's not a bust. He's not a bus, though. It's not over for him either.

I think that, you know, we were talking about this. I think maybe it was somebody else. But Monk, I still think, just needs to get into a situation where the right things are expected from him, really similar to Maxi. It's like they're kind of similar guys where like Maxi gets this like he gets into these like offensive lathers. I used to joke that you could like he's one of those guys that you could predict a bad shot like two or three possessions ahead. I'd be like he made that one so there's going to be a really terrible one coming. He's just that kind of guy.

And I think another thing about Maxie too is that I think that he would be a good person to. I think he's going to develop into like a ball pressure guy. Like he's going to be able to cross switch with guys that need to and then also give you like good. spot up creation and stuff like that. I'm with Kyle there on the defensive aspect. I mean, he is a little bit undersized. Like you said, Sharks, 6.3, 6 foot 6 wingspan. But man, this dude does play really, really hard on defense.

He plays well against bigger guys. Maybe you don't want him in a matchup against like a 6 foot 7, 6 foot 8, a score. But you can survive with him. I think that's sort of the appeal you're getting at Kyle. Can I ask a question? Yeah. Do you guys, how much do you guys value the gamer, or Gene. Like, like, when you look at a guy, like, do you situationally look at him in moments? Like,

do you guys weigh those things? Oh, my God. Do I ever? Do I ever, you know? And look, I'm listening to you talk about Maxie, Kyle. And it seems to me, if I lined up, if I, if I take what you're saying, and certainly I think you have a lot more expertise and have watched this kid a lot more than any of us have. You say it'd be really nice if he played next to a star. You say it'd be really nice. You'd be really nice if he gets in a very good situation. I actually think even if you guys are low on him, what I gather from that is that's what it was actually best for the kid.

If he actually did get drafted in the 13 to 16 range, that's when you do get to play with other good players, right? Because that's when you do probably get to play next to a star or certainly have a capability. Maybe the team's got one star or two stars already that are very young coming up. up, but that actually ends up being a much better situation than if the Knicks fall in love with you, you're expected to have the ball and a lot is expected of you right off the back.

And one thing to, I like about Calipari guys, they can fit into systems, right? Because they've already been in college, being sharing the ball. Because you compare him to, like, Cole Anthony. I feel like you draft Cole Anthony. He thinks he is the star, whereas Maxi knows I got to be part of a system. Might be fair. That might be fair. I mean.

Verno, after your passionate case for Cole Anthony last week, do you take issue with that? I think that I think Cole Anthony's got a good head on his shoulders. I've watched even more interviews since then. I do not think that he has some kind of outsized opinion of where he fits within the context of the NBA. That's what I gather. And maybe it's all BS. You never know. Some of these kids are just great at BSing interviews.

I'll tell you who's not. Anthony Edwards. He's not great at BSing interviews. You watched him interviewed last night and one of the questions was about like the pandemic. He's like, I've been living in a pandemic just trying to get better. Like,

what are you talking about? He's J.R. Has anybody coached you? Like, you know these questions are coming. He's just a goofy kid. And he meant to say quarantine, I think. You think so?

You know, maybe. His first got, His first comment was, how do you think you did today? He said, I think I did very great. Regardless, with Anthony Edwards, the number one concern with him is the shooting. And he clanked a lot of jumpers in his workout last night. In addition to the concerns with the decision making, concerns with off ball defense, attentiveness, shot selection.

That's a lot of boxes being checked for qualities that I don't love in a player, especially in a number one thing. He is so hard for me because there are games. I watched him where I thought he was like, you watched him and I go, my God, this guy's going to be a star in the NBA. I would tell you, he played a game in Memphis. He was terrible. Yeah. Terrible. Like if you did not tell me Anthony Edwards was supposed to be a lottery pick, I would never have known he was supposed to be a lottery pick. Yeah, he's got that kind of classic 90s, like, ISO era slot game.

Like, that's kind of like he could just create that shot. the problem with guys like him and like Michael Porter is that when you have that dribble jumper that you can just get and you've grown up getting it against everybody, those guys have a hard time getting disabused of that reality once they get to the next level. Like, hey, man, you can't play like this forever. Like if you go back and watch, you go back and watch Michael Porter Jr. in like high school and things like that, it was just like constantly. And it really hurt the other aspects of his development too.

And I think that's kind of maybe somewhat of what's going on with Anthony Edwards. I mean, he's irrational confidence. I really think he's like a JR type. That's what I think. I think he's going to have. Okay, hold on. Let's calm down a little bit, a JR type. I think for one thing, like, let's look at the context of his team in college, right?

He's playing for a really, really bad team that couldn't score the ball. The only way George is winning games is if he's taking a lot of shots, right? I think I saw something they were number 322 and 3 point percentage There's no floor spacing There's no other NBA players right He's also I think like the town is there Like you gotta admit like the town is for sure

Oh 100% right yeah It totally is He's a really young player on a really bad team Being asked to do too much Okay so I wouldn't write a mock because he had a bad year at George I'm glad you're I'm glad you're standing up for him because look, as I've said, I'm torn on it. I'm not all in.

I'm certainly not all out. And if somebody could convince me that he's the right thing to do because of the sheer talent level. That being said, you know, we were talking about Lamello prior to this, Kevin. And with Lamello and Anthony Edwards and Wiseman and a lot of these guys, when this all shut down in March, those were all at the the very top of the board and there weren't a lot of discussions about it. Nobody's played any basketball since. We always have this horrible paralysis by analysis that goes on from the end of the season until we get around to the June draft, right? Is this just the worst paralysis by analysis draft ever? Because we are now spending nine months or eight months talking ourselves into or out

of players that when they were actually playing basketball, everybody, I don't want to say everybody agreed on, but they were less split on. I don't think the conversation has really changed too much about Anthony Edwards. It's not like he's going to fall out of the top three. You know, with Lamello, maybe that can end up happening. But with Edwards, he's still a top three pick and he very well might go number one. And if not number one, probably number two. And with him, you know, Charks, I'm glad you stood up for him because it is uneniable,

the talent. Six foot five. He's a teenager. He has great athleticism, great bursts, a good handle. theoretically with his size and his length of a six nine wingspan could be a guy who can switch to defend multiple positions. I mean, these are all the qualities you look for. Kevin, though, you know who else fits that description? Who else fit that description back in 2004? Oh my God. Nuclear athlete. Incredible ball handler can shoot, get his own shot, whatever. J.R. Smith, exact same. Exactly. I love it. I love it. J.R. Smith was born in a Ferrari and just drove around his whole life and just could never quite do it. And I just feel like Edwards, Edwards is super talented.

Edwards can pass, though. Like, he's got passing vision. He made a lot of good passes in college. I have never seen J.R. pass the ball. So, like, I feel that's a little unfair. You hate that comment. This is why I like the Victor Oladipo comparison for Anthony Edwards.

No way. First of all, because of their games. There are games, you know, in terms of the versatility in the size and the scoring ability. But also, it took a long time for a little deeper. That's a thing. Yeah. It took a while. And with Edwards, I would not expect him to be somebody who comes in right away and shines as a rookie and is clearly making a winning impact.

To me, if Edwards pans out. And there are questions because like I said, the effort's not always there. The shooting, even in that workout last night, did not look any better than it did during the season. the decision making is poor. The fundamentals aren't great on defense. There's a lot that there needs to be worked on. But I will say, though, I think in Minnesota it makes sense for them. You've got a shooting five in Kat, right?

The floor spread. We got a point guard in DiAngelo. He won't be asked to do too much right away. He'll be the third or fourth option. They're going to play fast. We'll get a lot of shots. You know, I thought about this yesterday, Keev, because that news broke yesterday afternoon.

About Malik Beasley. About Malik Beasley. Yeah, yeah. And I thought, geez, I mean, he's a restricted free agent. They just traded for him. They probably bring him back. I mean, you're making a decision here. Either you're letting Beasley walk or if you are drafting Anthony Edwards. You're certainly not going to pay him what somebody else would possibly in restricted free agency. But that's probably just off the time. I mean, God, this guy, I mean, shoot, he's in danger of being in

freaking prison. So that's off the day. They need a two guard. You know what I mean? If that, if that decision is off the table and if you just decide, hey, uh, even if you, he is available, we're not going to fight people in restricted free agency to keep Malik. With Edwards, he could play that role. And you talk a lot about this, though, Chris. I do feel like Minnesota needs a leader. They need a culture changer. Cat and Delo, I think they're really, really good players, but I don't think they fit the description of the leader on your team. And I'm not so sure that Edwards. But you're going to ask a rookie to be a leader. That's yeah, it's not going to be a rookie either way. But you still, you still need culture changers. You know, a young player can come

in and make a difference with the culture, whether it's Luca or Trey or somebody else. They can change the culture and grow into leadership. I don't know if there are any of those in the top five, really. And that's one of the issues with the top of this draft. And that's what everybody around the league is talking about with this top of the draft, which is why some people look to the middle of the first round or the late first round as where maybe you can get a really good player. Well, you know, the culture changer is Halliburton.

He's the culture changer if you're going to bring someone in. Oh, wow. All right. But you're not taking him number one. one though. No, no, it's not number one, but he's the culture guy if you want culture guy. Edwards makes more sense. I mean,

I don't think that you can ask him to lead the team. I just don't. That's just my head hurts thinking about that. But I think it's well with those guys specifically too. I mean, because he just doesn't elevate. Like I look like the guys that come in and change the context immediately

are guys that kind of elevate the offense on their own with like heavy scoring, heavy playmaking and then the locker room stuff too. But I think another thing I was thinking about too is like Edwards, Edwards would make more sense than Lamello in my opinion because there's already like on court dissonance with Lamello and DeAngelo in my opinion a little bit. I'm with you. Yeah.

And I just think. Yeah. No, it's and they need a two guard now, right? And I'll just say this on the culture thing. I covered a team all year last year that had the rookie of the year on the team, right? And I will tell you that obviously as time goes by, it is going to morph into John Moran. team. But that culture, as it were, that was changed because of Jay Crowder and Solomon Hill. As crazy as that sounds, it's Jay Crowder, Solomon Hill, and Jonas Fallant. And Jonas Fallant

Tunis, it's those kind of guys. It's not the, because they've been around the league for 10 years. They're the guys that show up to practice and show you how to practice and what to do and how to be a real pro and how to do your interviews. And like those guys, like they don't, rookies don't know anything. And they need. I'm not saying he draft a guy that comes in right away. That's what I'm saying. Like, you've got to have somebody who maybe has a path to become that. I'm not sure Anthony Edwards can become that leader down in a lot of it. I mean, what kind of culture is that? I'm not saying it's a promise. I'm just saying he reminds me to Joe Smith and Dionne Wade. Hey, Kevin, you have Dion Waders as one of your comps. I'm just saying that's not exactly. I do have Deionn Waiters as one of my comps. And Eric Gordon as well. So with Minnesota, they also have the 17th pick in the draft. And whether it's late first or second round pick, I'm. Curious Charks and Kyle, do you guys have a sleeper, a guy who could well exceed expectations that could go somewhere later in the draft, either late lottery outside the lottery. Well, I mean, the first one that kind of comes to mind, and I don't think that this is like a hip thing to say at all.

I think that, you know, Pocosefsky, I don't even know if I'm pronouncing that. Is that the right pronunciation on that? Pocusevsky. I usually say Alexei Pocusefsky. So I think we're on the same page. I think the key is just say it fast. Okay. I'll do that.

I have like the blandest most boring two-syllable name in the world, so I've never been able to relate with any of this stuff. So, yeah, I think that he's like one of the more high, like, volatility kind of picks. I said this on group chat the other week. It's just he's a guy that if he gets in the right situation, he is like extreme upside and a lot of like misguided. He has just a lot of like raw energy on defense that needs to be kind of funneled in a direction. and I like guys like that.

And when you listen to him talk, he seems like a bright guy. And then I was thinking about this. Tell me what you guys think about this one. This is more of a not necessarily like a late lottery to early lottery, but late first round maybe to mid first round type impact is Jaden McDaniels. I was spending some time watching him last night. And he's wild. Like catch and shoot wise, he's wild.

As a decision maker, he's wild. But defensively, I think that he's like actually. extremely intriguing because he's pushing six foot 10. You listen to him in interviews. He seems like maybe he needs to grow into himself a little bit as a person. But if you watch some of his gap closing ability, like he blocks three point shots. He just swallows up layups sometimes. And I'll be like, oh my goodness. And yeah, I think that he has a lot of raw potential. Let's start off with Pockysevsky since you mentioned him. And, you know, the name to a lot of listeners might not mean anything. he is a weird prospect seven feet tall 200 pounds so tall and so skinny with with a weird lanky

body that you don't see from a lot of human beings 200 200 Chris he's got time to add some weight but he's always going to be lean that's terrible but with his game I'm with you Kyle that he is somebody that has clear steel potential and you're looking for size and skill in the today. He is somebody who shows off guard-like playmaking ability as well as some real skill as a shooter. You know, not just shooting spot-up 3s like you see

from a number of stretch 4s and whatnot or stretch 5s, but the ability to hit off screens and off the dribble. And there's a lot of appeal there. If a team is able to get him into their system, you know, late teens or in the 20s, a team that can develop him slowly without a lot of pressure, somebody

like in Oklahoma City, I would be very, very excited about what somebody like him can become long-term. Boy, you read, I read his write-up that you did, and, like, that has bust written all over it. Maybe not. Maybe not. Because if you go and look at, like, I was going back, when I was watching Denny of Deja,

like, in the past 10 days, I was like, well, what, what are the sort of benchmarks for guys like him that, for them to get to their potential? Like, what's the swing skill? So I was going back and watching a lot of those, like, 6-9, 6-10 type guys, a lot of European like Hito, like Gallo. A lot of people talk about Gallo with him. A lot of the like shooting mobility is something that like Pocosowski really has. Like his shot is very quick.

You should go, have you seen him shoot, Bruno? I mean, it's like, it's really, really efficient and compact and quick and he could shoot off the dribble. And those guys could do that. And, you know, if he fills out and goes right direction. If he fills out, I mean, he's seven foot 200 pounds. He's got a guy. He's got to gain 100 pounds. Don't even bring Janice into this.

He can fill out, Chris, I think. I mean, he's always going to be lean. But, Charx, you were going to say something. So I might come for him. I got a name for you guys. I feel like he's Austin Day. But Austin Day now would be a better player than he is. Right?

Like 6-11, super skinny shooter, pretty skilled. So with Jada McDaniels, that's another guy who's taller, lankier. You seem to have a thing, Kyle. This guy. 6-9, 200. pounds, Jada McDaniels. But, you know, with him, he's a little different, a lot different than Pockussevsky

in the sense that he's somebody who as a freshman at Washington was really, really good on the defensive end of the floor. And I think that got a little bit overlooked because we talk a lot about him in draft circles about some of his rawness on the offensive end of the floor. But Charks, I do think there's something to be said about drafting a guy who does show skill on offense, even though it's raw and underdeveloped, but also looks really good on defense. He's got lottery talent for sure. I remember watching a game

where he's like dribbling into threes. It's like six foot nine. He can block shots. From what I understand, he's falling because of off the court stuff. So you got a bunch of T's in Washington. He got benched. The season fell apart for them.

But if you're just talking about the player, the player to me is a lottery pick. He's going to go later in the lottery, not only because of his game as much as because of other stuff. Mine is, my guy is Grant Riller. I told you that. We did that in March. You watched those videos.

You know, I know you brought up Van Vleet the other day. He's very Van Vleady. That's how he feels to me. Like he just, he knows what to do. When that high screen comes, he knows what to do. And at worst, I think he's, a coach is going to trust him to come in and like run the offense when you need to give your starting point guard a little break. That kid is good.

he is better and it it just follows along the lines to me like of those I know he is not the talent that the Lillards and McCollums and some of these other guys that went to smaller schools are but I feel like when I watch him if that kid had a different uniform on

he'd be considered much higher on these draft boards than he is quite a lot of guards kind of in that same Grant Riller tier and that you know Devin Dotson Dotson Cassius Winston that's like the most Malachi flan yeah That's like the most competitive job market in the basketball world right now.

It's like if you, like I was watching like for Macaubi Tel Aviv, like Scottie Wilbican, you watch him and you're like, if he was, if you saw, you get into those guys that are like 6-2, 63 that can shoot past dribble, it's just like there are a lot of them. And when you get into that like the top 400, 450, 500 players in the world, there's just a bunch of dudes in that space. So that's kind of my thing with Riller. I'm like, it's who's going to be battling. It's probably one of the reasons why we're not.

seeing Maxi as like a clear top five guy and why there's a wide range and where people have him ranked. You know, I've talked to some people who have him outside the top 25. I've talked to people who have him as a top 10 pick. And it depends on how you might value guards or it might depend on what those front office executives already have with their roster and what team needs are. Really hard to break in as a guard right now. Not as hard to break in as a wing because everybody wants wings, interchangeable wings. So give me some of these. So my sleeper for this draft is Patrick Williams, Florida State, 6-8-225, got a good-looking jump shot, really athletic. I've been doing a big feature on him for a while now, so I'm kind of like all in his whole life story.

And to me, I think he's the second youngest player in the draft. He has all the tools, and he's got all the character stuff, high character, super smart, just like a team leader at 18. Like, this is a guy, like, if I'm going to gamble on a guy who has to develop, I want to gamble on a a guy everybody loves. It's just like, everyone you talked to him Florida States absolutely loves this guy. Work ethic,

character, and he's got all the tools too. So he's going to keep growing and growing over time. And kind of overshadowed by Vassel, right? Yeah. He might end up going to the Pistons

in the top 10. We'll see with him. And originally, I was thinking, let's wrap this up with a couple mailbag questions because originally I was thinking he might be a player

that falls to the mid-late teens and would be somebody of interest to a team like the Nets. And we have a question from Derek in New York. Jersey who asked, they have the nets have the 19th pick and Sean Marks is building a resume for finding solid talent. Karris Lavert, Jared Allen, Carruths, and Derek asked, do you think the net should stay at 19 and find value with maybe like a more solid wing player who can help right away?

Or should they use that pick and take a swing either for a higher upside guy or try to package it in a trade? Where do you guys think they should go in that direction and is there a wing that might make sense for them? I think it's a good spot for Josh Green. I'm a big Josh. green guy out of Arizona. I think if you're in Brooklyn, you need guys. You're going to grind on defense. Pretty athletic, young, fresh legs around Katie and Kyrie. I think Green is a guy like that.

It's 6-6. Probably already one of the best defenders in this draft, has some offensive upside. I think you go for like a solid defensive minor prospect who can play 20 minutes a night in Brooklyn. So you want them to draft, you want them to draft Rondea Hollis Jefferson again? Green can shoot, though.

I'm kidding. Yeah, well, that's what I was going to ask. You mentioned the offensive upsets. side sharks that he has, what is he shown during his freshman year in Arizona to have that offensive upside? It'd be maybe be more than like a spot-up three-point shooter who cuts.

One thing to A, if you have KD and Kyrie, that's all you're going to be. Like, let's be honest, right? No one else's not rushing going to touch the ball. And I think you can make spot up there.

Yeah, but you said he has maybe more offensive upside. I think he has a good high IQ for the game. I think he has a good feel. I think he's got some potential. Yeah, I like that's literally the person that I was going to say. I was,

Yeah, I mean, Josh Green has also that quality. This is something I've kind of been looking for in Wings, too, is sort of that trunk, you know, like that thick, heavier trunk so that you can thwart ball pressure sort of the way, like you look at PJ Tucker has that, Marcus Smart has that, guys that are still pretty mobile, but can like take impact off the bounce and not be bowled over, you know. So I think that Green kind of has that, just a really good shoulders, good build. And then I think that his ball control a little bit in space is a little like I don't know how much I would want to ask of him. I'm not sure about the size of his.

I'm always like obsessed with like hand size with players. I haven't seen anything on that. But I've been a big fan of Josh Green for long time. Yeah, I'm a fan of him. There's a little bit of like Danny Green in terms of the ball handling ability. But he has much better passing vision than a Danny Green does. And I'm sort of with sharks here that, you know, there's maybe more to his game. there's some creativity with his passing that even if he's just a straight line driver,

you can rely on him to make the right decision. And I think that's really important. If you're a team like the Nets that has, you know, playoff or championship aspirations to have guys who make the right decision, it's simple stuff. But that's what you're looking for when you're building around your type of superstars. And Josh Green, to me, is one of those guys who could probably even come in right away and make an impact as a rookie with those skills. You jostled my memory, Kevin. I meant to mention this to you earlier in the week. But last week we had gotten a question about Desmond Bain,

kid that you really like, right, out of TCU. I did reach out to the people I knew on the TCU staff. They told me, I mean, they raved about him. Great. And so I don't mind saying this on the air. If they trashed him, I wouldn't say it on the air, right? But no, high character, total gym rat, always in the gym. And I asked him for a comp.

You know who they said? Danny Green. They said they think he'll be able to play off stars great and be able to have an NBA career. But like everything, all the feedback I got on him was outstanding. He's been a big riser in this process. He's using a lot in the last couple months. And I thought that was an interesting comp. Listen, every team, look, championship teams love having Danny Green.

Danny Green has been on the title team two years in a row. You know what I mean? And he's been on other title teams in, say, Antonio, right? So that is exactly the kind of. guy you want that you could have within your program for, you know, the next decade if you nail it. If he really is, Danny Green, you know. Three quick things about Desmond Bain that I love. First thing, he has shot mobility. Like his, there's like no wasted energy. He's one of those guys that gets like maximum torque from his, from his body. Like, you watch, go watch him shoot in like

late clock situations where he's really far away from the basket. He can effortlessly shoot the ball from like 30 feet. No problem. Clean hands, fingers touch, everything. Another thing is whip passes. Really important is that like he's pretty good with either hand throwing those one-handed skip passes. I'm like in love with that quality. And another thing is he can switch. I always would joke that he was like the ultimate Mori ball player that like if the Rockets could have gotten a hold of him, he would have been a low cost kind of option for them because he's built like a, he's built like a truck. Why not the Sixers, Kyle? They could use another guy like that as well. Well, you know, and that's why with this year's draft class, you know, whether it's Josh Green or Desmond Bain, everybody says this draft is weak because of the questions about the stars at the top of the draft.

But move on down. And there's a lot of guys who I feel pretty confident are going to be good players for a long time. Are we on the same page with that, you know, Charks and kind of? Yeah, I mean, the middle of draft is always the same every year, right? You're talking about like hundreds of guys. I think this year's a little deeper with role players, though. Guys you feel really good about. Like, I never worry about a drafting week or not.

not out of the top five. Because at that point, it's just about how you evaluate. There's a huge pool of players every coming to the league. So, yeah, I don't like boring too much about the drafting week after, like, top three or four picks. Yeah, and we always say it's a weak draft or a good draft based upon the lottery. But it's not always a draft in which you can get a guy that comes in right away and makes an impact for you in the 20s or 30s.

This draft has a lot of potential really high-end role players, winning players. And that is not a normal. In a league and teams strapped for cash, they need that. You know, as I've mentioned to you many times, five, six years ago, no rookies were getting playoff minutes. Now there's rookies and second year players leading teams. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, Donovan Mitchell was having to put the team on his back last year, you know, for the Utah Jazz. In his second year in the NBA, that was unheard of 10 years ago.

But now you draft these guys and they try to get them on the court and maximize them. quickly so that they are able to be big contributors while before you end up having to pay them, max contracts, right? I mean, it is the great quest that we are going through in the NBA with, say, you know, Trey Young, you wanted to try to build so that you could be amazing with Trey Young in four or five years. Well, now,

bro, you might want to go ahead and try to build because once you start paying Trey Young, $40 million a year after he makes all NBA, it's going to be a lot harder, so you better, you better try to build around something like that right now, you know. That's why we are seeing Atlanta have some urgency here. Maybe we'll trade down from number six and get a veteran player or trade out entirely. And they're going to be aggressive in free agency too with Atlanta. They're one of those teams that they got to try to maximize this star level player that they have on their rookie year.

We're going to see Dallas do that. Already obviously had a nice playoff run. We're going to see other teams do that as well because it, It's sort of like quarterbacks in the NFL. He have a good quarterback on his rookie deal. Try to invest and spend elsewhere to make the most of that time you can. All right. Last thing before we get out of here.

Who is the guy that you feel personally you are way higher on than the consensus? And I say this because charts, I recall last year, like, you had like Brandon Clark like at number one at one point, I think. Certainly like in the top five. You had three at the end? I think three at the end. So like that type where it's like, okay, even if more people were higher on Brandon Clark where he ended up getting drafted in the actual draft, he wasn't in anybody's top five, but he wasn't your top five.

Who's that guy this year? Who are the guys that you are way higher on than the consensus, each of you? I'm kind of bummed for me because my two guys, everyone jumped on board. I have Halliburton and Williams as top five guys. but in the last like month, they just two months they've risen up so much it's not really I could consider

to jump anymore. That's fair. Halliburton got really cool, really fast. Like it was, he was a popular pick for a while there. And I don't know,

when you hang out with, those are the people I interact with the most or just like the hardcore draft nerds. And they were on him early, early, early. And there's a few people

that I think could be, I guess it depends on where you're talking about picking. If you're talking about like guys that you can pick up that could be helping, you know, good teams quickly. Like I think Xavier Tillman is a guy that could just pop up

on a team here soon. He sort of reminds me of like a Jamichael Green type of guy who just like, this guy just hangs around in the NBA, but I think he was the second round pick. A weird pick that I've had is like, I've been going back and watching a lot of Jordan Nora just the way he shoots the ball. Like I feel like

if he gets in the right, that's like a way left field pick I know for Louisville. He's a guy who has like crazy shot mobility like we talked about, but just like was always in a hurry, just never seemed to quite get there. I feel like he could be like a high, you know, low cost, high value type. Another guy, Charks and I've talked about this one a lot. Don't kill me for saying this. I think Nick Richards is actually better than people think he is. I love it. Stick to the brands. That's fantastic. I'm sorry. I've had this conversation a lot.

I think if he was in a different jersey like, like Verno was talking about with Reiller, I feel like if he like went to Bucknell or something, people would be going insane. This guy's got an insane wingspan. He learned... He was at Bucknell for sure. Well, I'm just saying, people would be overrating him, is what I'm saying. But since he's at Kentucky, he's a little older and, you know, but he's got a great vertical leap.

I think that his jump shooting game, he's going to be shooting threes, I think, soon. I mean, his like pick and pop game in the short role was like pretty good. He's the one guy that I think of the Kentucky guys. I'm not going to, I'm not like, I'm pretty realistic. Hey, I'm a back, I'm a back you up on this. All right, Kyle? because I've known Matt Jones, who does Kentucky Sports Radio for over a decade. And every year I'll keep up with him about the Kentucky guys because it's his life, right?

This is, I just went back and looked at our messages. This is in April, okay? This is what he wrote to me. I don't understand why the pros don't like Richards more. He can defend as a great free throw shooter, can switch out on guards very well. I really think there's a place for him in the league, but I think he was such a just stiff as a freshman, people gave up on him. But to me, he can be a backup ring protector.

I think that's right. Yeah. Yeah. He's usually right about these guys. I will tell you this. That year when everybody was on Monk, Jones texted me and told me, get off this.

Fox is the guy. And I was like, okay. I think most Kentucky people knew Fox was our best player. But yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with him. Yeah. Tyrell Terry is mine. I'm sort of like you, Charks, where I had him top 10, back in March and April and now he's sort of become a mid first, late first, and a lot of people's

boards when before he was considered somebody who maybe go back to school. Tirol Terry's mine, Killing and Hayes, I believe all, you know, all three of us, Kyle, Charks, and I all like Killingian Hayes. I have him number one. I believe you have him one as well, Charks. I'm three. Three, okay. I mean, but we all have them top three. You do as well as Kyle? I'm top five. I haven't really picked. It's not number one for me, but yeah. Okay, I see. And you and I did videos this week. a video on Killian Hayes. You did a Denny Avdia video. Charks, are you working on? Yeah, I've got an Edwards one coming out like early next

week probably. Edward's video? Yeah, video. You don't compare him to J.R. Smith, do you? Missed that one. How about Deion Waiters? Hey, you also said you got a Patrick Williams thing coming out? Yeah, that's a feature. I'll come out two weeks. Oh, nice. Don't bust my chops

about J.R. Smith and then out the other side of your mouth say Deon Waiters, Charks. Look at your grin right now. Don't do that. I'm just saying, don't do that. I was just going to say fear Tillman stuff. He's got two kids, and we both know. If you got kids, you're a hard worker. You're a morning person.

You're a hard worker. You're a high character guy. So put that on the board. The things you learn when we are talking about the NBA draft. All right. Well, the NBA draft is just a few weeks away now. Thanks for joining us, Kyle. Thanks for joining us, charts.

Yeah, thanks for having us on. It was fun. Kevin, I will talk to you next Tuesday.