The Ringer NBA Show - The (Contract Extension) Price Is Right (Ep. 143)

Episode Date: October 10, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor express their astonishment at Joel Embiid’s contract extension (1:50), wonder about the reasoning behind Gary Harris’s contract extension (19:00), and discuss the importance of nutrition when it comes to young NBA players (25:10). Then they debate the trajectory for preseason standout Kyle Kuzma (33:35), take sides in the James Harden–Kevin McHale feud (42:15), and explain Markelle Fultz’s new shooting form (49:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Download the Seatgeek app and enter the promo code Ringer NBA today. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varnan. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com is Kevin. O'Connor, aka Kevin Obama, aka Kevin O'Concert. And another way, you can't go a week without going to the concert.

There I am. Chance the Rapper. I saw you posting everywhere about Chance the Rapper. I'm like, he's at another concert. Oh, Chris. It was a fun time. That's the last one for quite a while. That's the last one until St. Vincent in November. It's kind of sad because I live vicariously

through you and all of these concerts that you go to. And now that the NBA season starts, It's really going to put a dent in your concert going, I'm sure. It's basketball time, baby. I'm pumped. I'm ready to go. We have a week until the season is going to begin.

And yesterday, out of nowhere, came big news about Joe L. Embed and signing a five-year, $148 million contract with the Philadelphia 76ers. You and I spoke about this when you wrote an article about a draft class that was going to be able to be up for extensions. We'll get to Gary Harris, but we had previously seen him over the course of the last week, signed an extension. And you and I talked about this, and so I can't go back on it now. I thought maybe, you know, you try to do a curry type thing with MB, where, yeah, it's still a lot of money, but you're taking the risk into account. And if it does play out, you've got one of the best contracts in the NBA. But loading up and giving him a max contract, I thought was way, way, way too risky.

I was shocked by this yesterday. What about you? So basically, here's the way I would describe it, Chris. I have notifications on my phone for two people on Twitter, Woj and Shams. That's it, just those two. And I was at the immediate dining room at TD Garden before the Celtics Sixers game. And I look at my phone. I've seen the notification pop up from Woj that he signed 148 million contract extension.

that with incentives could be $178 million. And for a moment, I was like, is this a fake Woge? Even though I have notifications on, I was like, this has to be fake. This can't be real. And I still feel that way right now, just because it's so shocking. However, we have seen some reports from Woge and from Zach Lowe that said this is going to be one of the more complex deals we've seen. A complex contract structure is what Woj called it.

So I'm curious to see what this deal actually looks like is more. details trickle out to see how much of that $148 million is actually guaranteed. Because that will change the way I feel about it, depending on like what type of bonuses are in there, what type of what type of conditions are in there for him to actually make that money. But on the surface, boy, like, what a risk. What a risk for Philly, regardless of the incentives to give this deal now instead of waiting until next summer to do it when he's a restricted free agent. It's not like he's unrestricted.

You can still match any deal, any offer he gets. got next summer. And I just think it's a monumental risk. And that's coming from somebody. And I think you and I both love Joelle and B as a player. Congrats to him, by the way. Congrats, Jojo. Congrats to him. He is intensely likable. In fact, one of the most likable players in the NBA. That being said, this is insane. I mean, for a guy that he has played 31 games, Kevin. And the other thing, there's so much that goes into signing a deal like this. If it does, doesn't work out, which at this point, the first three years, by any measure, have not worked out. Then you are on the hook. Like, if you spend that kind of money on a guy, he has to be great.

End of story. And not only does he have to be available, he has to be great, right? And you don't know after all of these injuries when he comes back, we would like to think that he can be peak of powers when he comes back. But by the way, this isn't just the three years with Sixers. Keep in mind, we didn't watch Joe L. M. B'd in the NCAA tournament because he wasn't available for the NCAA tournament. I mean, so we're going back all the way to college, and this is now 31 years. It was shocking for me to read last night. Keep in mind, one of the draft moments that stands out for the last decade for sure, and I guess now even a little bit longer than a decade, is the Odin Durant draft. And obviously, we've seen what has happened with Kevin Durant.

and we know what happened with Greg Oden. Greg Oden, in the first three years of his career, played 51 more games than Joe L. M.B. Think about that. And we think of Greg Oden is like never playing. You know, and he said, everybody likes the guy. He is, like I said, intensely likable. If Joe L.M.B. had no social media, people would view this differently. I really believe that.

I believe he is so likable that people are like happy for him and you just kind of hope it works out. But if this is any other guy, right, you would think about guys that get killed over being, you know, injured all the time. It happens all the time, right? Look at the perception of Derek Rose and what took place over time because Derek Rose is on social media, making you laugh all the time and talking about trust the process and all this kind of stuff, right? he went from, you know, the penthouse to the outhouse in terms of fan perception. And so I liked the guy. He's super funny. On the other hand, this is just crazy.

Crazy to me. I can't believe they gave him this contract. Why? Why? What is the reason? I think this stat from Zach cram at the ringer.com kind of puts us into perspective. There's a stat that's in Haley O'Shaughnessy's article up there right now that says Embeddeed is getting paid. $188,2995 for every minute he's played so far in the NBA.

I think that kind of shows just how unusual of a deal this is, how unusual of a situation this is, just playing only 31 games in three years. And then you mentioned the college injury stuff too, Chris. It's just something that for the Sixers, I mean, I don't think you would necessarily even want to let him go, even if he gets hurt this year. I don't think you would let him walk next summer. But I do think that teams wouldn't necessarily be offering him a max deal. So there's essentially no incentive to making this deal happen now except for two reasons.

A, you want those incentives in there, whatever they are. We don't know what they are yet. But whatever they are, maybe you were willing to give more money now to have those incentives that would bring the deal down in whatever fashion, whatever way it did. And the other one, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense, is because you just want to have the good relationship with the player. You want to have a good relationship with the agent. So essentially, you're giving this deal ahead of time to kind of maintain your relationship you have. So when that player becomes an unrestricted free agent, he remembers that you trusted him, that you gave him the money, that you really invested a lot into him as a person and as a player.

So those are the two reasons why, I think. But the first one, that's really like the big question. And I am really excited to see if these details do leak out. Because if you're the Sixers, I mean, we don't need to know those because it's not necessarily any of our business. But we know the contract salaries for every player in the league. And I am just going to be fascinated to see how low that number can be in this deal. Because you can only have one non-guaranteed year on a contract in the NBA. So that fifth year can be non-guaranteed for Embede's deal.

But years one through four can't be. So it's not like the deal can be totally non-guaranteed after the first year if they wanted it to be. So I don't know. I'm just throwing thoughts out there when we don't really know what the deal is going to look like. But that's a big part of it, Chris. And that's really, I think, going to determine long term when we look back at this deal, whether it was maybe the best decision the Sixers made or possibly one of the worst. I don't think there's any way it can be the best, Kevin.

I really don't. You might be right. You're still getting him. You're still going to spend that money on him. It's the doing it now that I just, like again, what is the upside in not waiting to meet? Now, I will present one caveat. If we find out, like you said, that there is much less guaranteed and he would have to hit all manner of incentives, including, most importantly, games played, in order to get to the number that was originally presented,

if that is the case and that you are only paying him if he is available and if he is an outstanding player, then under those conditions, I would at least be able to say, okay, I see where you're coming from. But in terms of if the guaranteed money is a massive number, because then you could at least say, hey, listen, if we wait on it and he's as good as we think he's going to be and he's totally healthy, then this would have cost us way more down the road, much like the, you know, the Steph Curry thing once upon a time. But that would be honestly the only caveat. The other thing I worry about is if a guy is injured all the time and, you know, this can sound

cruel. But guys that are hungry, guys that know they have to be up every morning and doing that rehab. And that gets their chance to get back are much more likely. to put in the requisite effort to become whatever their ceiling is when they don't have $100 million in the bank, right? You are really counting on a guy in the ability to take everything extremely seriously when that is the case because your incentives, some at least financially, are not there in the same way that they would be. And so that's a concern, right? And I say that because one of the really great stories to me, and I know that it's not going to be a league-wide thing, but I'm around Mario Chalmers a lot, who of course was part of those heat championship teams,

and he had come and had gotten traded mid-season to the Memphis Grizzlies and was fantastic for them. And in fact, really, really good once Mike Conley went down for the rest of a season. And he was going to become a free agent at the huge year, the year that everybody got all of the money two years ago. And he tore his Achilles in a game. And it was one of the saddest things I had seen because I just knew, you know, you're coming up on 30. And like now your big payday turned into literally zero dollars. You know, and he's probably, and he's going to make the Grizzlies this upcoming year. But you see him every day scratching and clawing and fighting because he has to to try to come back from that.

And I wonder, even with him, you know, what if he had $100 million in the bank, right? kill yourself to come back. You know what I mean? That's another big concern for me. You mentioned the Grizzlies. Did you see the screenshot Chandler Parsons put on Instagram of him, him and Joelle and Bede and the money bags on the screen? They are big, big buddies,

cut from the same club. Yeah, yeah, guys who are very, very talented, but got hurt and got paid. Yeah. I mean, it's sad, really. I mean, I hope Parsons stays healthy this year, too, for what it's worth. Don't have a lot of confidence, but I hope he does. And with Joel, right now, I mean,

Like, if you're the Sixers, if healthy, he's already arguably the best center in basketball, the best big man. I mean, I would take Davis ahead of him slightly. But if you're talking Towns versus Embed for that second spot, I mean, it's arguable. I mean, Embedd is already in that conversation, if healthy. But that's the big qualifier. And that's what we don't know. That's the big question.

And the other thing is we have to see him again, right? The 31 games we did see him on a. minutes restriction, no less. I would agree that the talent is just ridiculous. That being said, once you go through injury after injury after injury, right, is he that player still when he comes back? I'm nervous he's going to have a career like Bill Walton where, you know, Bill Walton had a couple healthy seasons, you know, where he played 60 plus games or he played 80 games

once in his career. I'm worried that's what it's going to be like where there's this. fascinating, just incredible Hall of Fame level player who has these incredible highs, but he just can't stay healthy. Yeah. And that's what I'm scared of with Joel and Bid. You know what? Like, I say that, but Bill Walton was a Hall of Famer.

Like, that would it be the worst outcome for Joel. Bill Walton was a Hall of Famer. Bill Walton was also one of the, you know, two or three best players in the world for a moment and at a very young age, won that title with Portland and was the best player. Yeah, right. I mean, so that happened prior to the disasters that took place within his career before that. I mean, he was a world champion and delivered a title to Portland and was one of the great players in the world. So it would be great if Joe Ambique win a title and then all that stuff happened to the guy. Who knows? You know, I mean, that was Bill Walton's third year in the NBA when he won a title. Who knows? I mean, Ambide is entering his second kind of.

It's kind of his fourth. So we'll see what goes down with Jojo. I hope more than anything else that he stays healthy. And the funny thing is, is like, when you talk to NBA executives of other teams about D'Aal Ambid, the response is always something along the lines of like, as fans, you know, we want him to stay healthy, even though like it would help an opponent, but we want him to stay healthy just because he's so great for the game. So it's like even rival executives are still.

hoping for good things for Joel Embed because he is just one of those lovable players in the game and just one of the guys who can be one of the greats and we want to see that. All right. Here's an interesting hypothetical. Let's say Sam Hinky is still there. What up, Hinky. And still living the process, right? Does he sign this deal?

I don't think so. I don't either. My reason is simply just that I think he would evaluate it as just too high of a risk compared to the other option, which is simply just waiting and signing him as a restricted free agent. And this is, really is the process. And B, wouldn't you say that's the success or failure of this grand experiment, unless you want to say, hey, it proves that it was at least somewhat effective if they changed all the rules for the lottery. But I'm saying in retrospect, we will look back and the success or failure of that way of going about it.

We're going to look back and we're going to say, all right, was that smart? to lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose so that you could get these guys. And listen, Nerlands don't well got traded for nothing. And Jalil O'Kefa for hadn't worked out. And it's not like all of these picks. And who knows on Simmons and Fultz and what they will be within the context of the NBA. Are they star, star level players? But if Embed is great, it will be a referendum on the process.

And if he is not, then it will be looked at as, well, what was the point of that? I mean, I think from a process point of view, the process, everything they did, I've always been a fan of it. And I'm still am a fan of it. I think Sam Hinky won every single trade that he made. There were some iffy draft picks. Some mistakes were made, Michael Carter Williams, but he turned that around into trading it for a highly valuable first-round pick. Jolila Okafor was a mistake. But at the same time, it seems there's a.

sense that ownership was pressuring to take the quote unquote safe player rather than somebody like Chris Stapp's Porzingis, who has also had injury issues as well with the New York Knicks. Let's not fail to mention that either. So I think there were some mistakes made, but at the same time, there's no denying the immense talent that they have on their team. If you're ranking assets for every team in the league, you know, who has the best assets to the worst assets, the Sixers are probably top three. And that means in my opinion that they have a lot of flexibility moving forward. They have a lot of options with how they can build their team.

They can turn those assets into a star player that becomes potentially available. Or they can continue building young. I think they're in still an incredible position largely due to the approach that they took. But with that said, you're right, Chris, that there's still questions about these guys that they have. Ben Simmons shoots with the wrong hand, period. He shoots with the wrong hand. Markell Fultz, which we'll talk about a little bit later, he has totally. screwed up his free throw shooting motion and he looks good besides that though I have nothing

to criticize he looked especially good last night against the Celtics and then Jojo and b he can't stay healthy I mean there's your top three players and all three of them have concerns but at the same time Chris every young player there's holes that can be poked and these guys are still supreme talents well you have to prove that you're a supreme talent that's what you do right we'll see that's fair right you have to prove it I mean there's been a lot of guys that were supreme talents that we end up, we think they are. And then it plays out. And they're not nearly as supreme a talent as we once maybe thought.

For Philly fans' sake and for all NBA fans' sake, I hope that MBEed is able to reach his potential and just stay on the court. Let's get to the other guy and two others, because this is, once the MBEED contract came down, you had written about this a few weeks ago about guys and their ability to sign extensions. before a deadline was coming up. One extension that did get signed that we wondered if it would was the Gary Harris one. And he got a lot of money from Denver. You know, it's going to be when you're talking about $20 million on average, you obviously got your payday. It seemed like initially you were a fan of this.

And then I saw where you corrected it a little bit just saying, I know you think very highly of Gary Harris. You thought that he was worth signing to an extension. On the other hand, I felt like you presented the caveat. It is a great deal for Gary Harris. Yes. That being said, do you think it is a wise move for the Nuggets? Definitely a no-brainer for Gary Harris and his agent errantments. They got the Victor Oladipo contract granted.

There's an incentive in there where I think it's $74 million guaranteed that can become $84 million. And for the Nuggets, that makes it a little bit better. But still at the same time, when you look at the landscape next summer, I do kind of wonder where that money might have been for Gary Harris. I think it's a fair bet. It's a fair gamble because I love Gary Harris as a player. And I would not knock them for giving him that money. But at the same time, we're about to enter an era in basketball where we've gotten adjusted to the rising cap. It like huge increases each year.

but that's not going to happen anymore. So that's, that makes it a risk in the sense that it's conceivable that on the market next summer, the most Gary Harris could get offered is like 12 million annually. And if you're giving him that deal now, you are shorting yourself next summer, which hinders flexibility moving forward when it comes to having to sign other guys that are going to be coming up.

So I don't love it for Denver, but at the same time, I get it. I just think you really need Gary Harris to become the guy that you think he can be. And I think he can be. But like you just said, Chris, in regards to the Sixers, we think that a lot. And oftentimes it doesn't always happen. So I just right now in this free agent market, in this climate, rather, I just don't really see the incentive to signing these guys for huge deals right now when you can just wait until

next summer. And that's that that's what was interesting about the report yesterday from Shams Serania that the Celtics hadn't even contacted Marcus Smart on a contract extension. So prior to the October 16th deadline, because there's no rush. I mean, I would I would love to see Marcus re-ups if I'm a Celtics fan. But at the same time, you also want to get a good deal for the team. So I think it's worth waiting in most cases until the summer when, guess what, These guys are restricted free agents. I think you could potentially get much better deals next summer just by waiting. And you do wonder with somebody like Harry, with a lot of these, how much more are you paying if you do let it play out?

What are the chances that now we added Millsap so you know he's at best your third best guy on the team, right? Yeah. At best, he's your third best player. They're damn good, though. We can't discount the possibility that Gary Harris. gets much better. I mean, I think he can make another leap this year. But you're banking on that for it to be worth it. I think he's also helped by the fact of the, you have so many players in the NBA that are outstanding point guards. You also have so many players in the NBA that are

outstanding small forwards. Shooting guards not as much. I mean, obviously Hardin, plays with the ball at his hand all the time. But in terms of shooting guards, you're talking like, you know, DeRosen, Wiggins, Beal, Clay, McCollum. I mean, there's not a million, right? There's not a ton of outstanding shooting guards in the NBA. And if Harris becomes that. And the other thing is, you know, I think that their Achilles heel is going to be point guard for certain. That's Denver's problem.

And you wonder, right, like, is it better off? Don't you want, maybe the pairing of Gary Harris on the perimeter as a guy that you've invested a boatload of money into. And Yokic down low is a great pairing. And clearly that's going to be your core going forward that you are building with in mind. I'm not so sure in the way the NBA is now that you wouldn't want somebody with a ball in their hands much, much more as the guy you really invest in with Yokic. But again, those guys aren't very easy to come by anyway. You know, I think their team's interesting. You know, you mentioned the point guard.

I wonder with them, like, how much, you know, moving forward is it going to be running the offense through Yokic and running it through Millsap? And then kind of using point guards by committee. Because you have a guy like Will Barton, who I think gets paid next. I think he's somebody else that they're going to try to extend before the deadline. So Will Barton is a guy coming up your bench who can handle the rock a little bit, who can distribute. Emmanuel Moudier, obviously he hasn't turned into the player that people expected, but he's still very, very young, and I don't think it's worth giving up on him.

Granted that expectations should be lowered for the guy that he could become down the line. So they have some playmakers, and they have two of the best big men passers in the league and Paul Millsap and Nicola Yokic. So I think they can run offense through those guys where there's enough playmaking on the floor, but you know, you do want that playmaker at your point guard position. But I think they have enough talent on their roster where the ball can move around. And then on the defensive end, Gary Harris can be your kind of locked down defender against those great point guards that we have in today's NBA. Yeah, really interesting. Let me just double back to the Marka smart thing and you're saying that he didn't get contacted. I am more shocked that there's been no discussion over it, right?

Like maybe they try to lowball him and just say, hey, we'll sign you to this deal now, which is kind of what I thought might happen in the Embed situation. Well, sign you to this deal now. If you want it, you can take this deal now and it not be as good. And then the player just decide, all right, I'll either sign this deal to guarantee myself that I've got a great contract going forward or I'll risk it because this is too low for me. But the fact that there's been no conversation is kind of, that was kind of surprising to me. Yeah, that part was odd. There's the quote, he said, me and my agent haven't heard anything from the Celtics. You're seeing everybody else's numbers and things like that.

So we're just kind of waiting. And that comment, quote, you're seeing everybody else's numbers and things like that. Well, the thing is, is like, I don't necessarily think the Celtics would be happy with giving out those numbers right now. They would rather wait until next summer because with Marcus Smart, he's so interesting because if you put in against Gary Harris, Marcus is probably better at everything except for shooting, which is a key ingredient to success in today's league and be at Rimfinner. But so far in preseason, Marcus Smart has looked damn good shooting the three. Will he sustain that? We'll see.

And with the weight he lost, he's looked significantly better finishing at the rim. So if you're smart, maybe you want to wait too. But at the same time, that still has an element of risk because there's so little money available next summer. Or the money that is available is going to go to the top tier guys and not necessarily to the guys on your level. I mean, it's a gamble, man. I mean, this is hard. Trusting a guy that all of a sudden plays so great and is in such great shape because it's a contract year can many times be a fool's errand, right? Like, why weren't you in shape last year?

Like, I mean, we still paid you every week, right? Like, why are you now in this unbelievable shape? Because it's go time. And so now what happens when I put, you know, 50, 80, whatever million dollars in your pocket? You know what I mean? Like, then what? It's partially that. to poke fun at Markell Fultz eating

fillet and not eating well. But at the same time, it's a reality that for a lot of young guys, whether they're in the NBA or they're just quote unquote, normal people, Marcus Smart, I mean, isn't necessarily exempt from that. I guess he hired a chef this summer, a nutritionist.

So that's something that a lot of these young guys need to learn how to do. They need to learn how to eat right, just like we all need to as well, I guess. That is absolutely true. And I will forever believe this. Here's one. that'll come out of nowhere to you. But I will forever believe this, that in large part, the injuries that came along and befell

Derek Rose are in at least some way related to his nutritional intake. I know that sounds bizarre, but I believe that. It does sound bizarre. No, I covered him at the University of Memphis, Kevin. He never ate like real food. And if he did, it would not be, it was like trash, right? He ate like gummy worms and sweet tart. You could probably go back and find Calipari joking about it.

He ate like candy all the time. Like it was weird. Honestly weird. But could that affect a torn ACL and a torn meniscus though? I feel like this is like some Tom Brady level drink water and you won't get sunburns type of doctoring right now. But I do believe that your nutrition can. I'm not trying to be a kook here. I do absolutely believe that your nutrition could affect your health.

I mean, LeBron James spends $1.5 million on his body every single year, right? There you go. There you go, Isaac. Yeah, that's true. Isaac's right. Like, I was talking to somebody about this last night, actually, in regards to LeBron, where I asked the question, like, what percent of LeBron's incredible health is luck versus how much money he invested into his body?

And like Isaac said, $1.5 million per year invested in his body. He's got like that hyperbaric chamber that he's. sleeps in for an hour a day that allows him to rehabilitate. I don't know, whatever the hell that does. It seems like it has worked for him, just like for Tom Birdie, drinking lots of water, stopping sunburns, has apparently worked for him. So it's something that players need to think about. That's why, like, with Markle Fultz, for me, it's frustrating because it's like, you are one of the most talented point guard prospects to enter the league in years. And not everybody can have a mindset like Kobe or a mindset like LeBron or Tom Brady. Not everybody's going to be like

that. But at the same time, damn, you really wish he was a little bit more invested into his body and nutrition and working on himself physically at this age. Because you know what? That'd be better for his game now and for later. And that's just a frustrating aspect of it. Guys learn that as time goes on. I mean, you can't expect them to be mature adults when they first come into the league. for certain. But can you? I mean, you are investing as a team, so much money and resources into them. I think it's fair to expect it. I think it is that you expect them to really put their all into it when so much is being invested into them in a multi-billion dollar business. There's a lot at stake, man. I get it. They just don't. I mean, listen, I remember having Jared Dudley on last year, right? And one of the things you'll say is, you know, yeah, you go to Magic City in Atlanta and you go to the clubs when you're on the road, whatever, like all that, you do all that stuff when you're young. You don't take it as seriously in most cases. And then as you get a little bit older, you start to realize, yo, I, like, I need to take this seriously and I need to take way better care of my body than I have

been. And so next thing, you know, you're sitting in the hotel watching, you know, whatever on Netflix instead of going out to the club. And then sometimes for those guys, it's too late. I mean, that can happen to. Not necessarily for the top draft picks, but for those guys drafted in the back of the first round or the second rounders, you can't have that mindset. There's so little margin for error. You got to be on the second you have your chance in the NBA. You can't let that go. Yep.

All right. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to go rapid fire through all of the big headlines throughout the NBA. We'll do that after these words. The show today brought to you by the NBA on TNT. After a blogbuster offseason, the NBA is back for the 2017-18 season. and it tips off on TNT Tuesday night, October 17th, with an electrifying doubleheader that features friends, foes, and some familiar faces. First up, after a summer swap, Kyrie Irving and Gordon Hayward lead the new Boston Celtics to the cute in Cleveland to battle LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, and the Cavaliers at 7 p.m. Eastern Eastern Eastern.

Then the focus shifts west. As James Hardin and Chris Paul lead the new look Houston Rockets to the bay to take on the defending champ Golden State Warriors, that's at 10. 1030 Eastern. Celtics at Cavs, Rockets at Warriors, coverage begins at 7 p.m. Eastern, Tuesday, October 17th on TNT and the TNT app. The show is also brought to you by Casper. A Casper mattress is an obsessively engineered mattress at a shockingly fair price. Supportive memory foam creates award-winning sleep surface and you sink right in with just the right bounce. Try Casper for 100 nights risk-free in your own home. If you don't love it, they'll pick it up and refund you everything. Casper understands the importance of truly sleeping on a mattress before you commit,

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Use the offer code NBA. All right, Kevin, you recently wrote about on the ringer.com, Kyle Kuzma, who there's Kuzma fever going on in Los Angeles. So it seems already. And you wrote about why this could be real. Like we've seen him in Summer League, we've seen him in the preseason, and so far, I think it's fair to say, he has made as good an immediate impression as any rookie in the NBA. Tell me why you are a Kuzma believer. He's a do-it-all player, man.

He is a do-it-all player. And I think with him, his game has evolved so much so quickly, partially due to the improvements that he's made. I think his first steps a little bit quicker. he's showing off a little bit more with his left hand, especially off the dribble. I mean, he just looks a lot more complete. That's really the only word that comes to mind with him. A couple executives I talk to use the same word, complete. He just looks like a complete player.

He can shoot from three. He can do this little pull-up floater in the lane. He can get to the rim and finish with both hands. He still needs to get better defensively. Like any young player, he needs to get stronger. But I think he at least has the potential to defend permanent players and he's big enough to defend some bigger guys as well. I mean, there's very little you look at and say,

well, that's going to hold him back from being a success in the NBA, which raises the question, how good can he just potentially be? Right now he looks like a good role player, but can he continue making strides and building on the strong foundation that he has? We'll see. But if you're a Lakers fan, if you're someone in the Lakers organization,

you've got to be really, really just ecstatic about the guy that you managed to get with a 27th pick. Well, also, you got it with the 27th pick, which was a trade. And how unbelievable, if Kyle Kuzma is as good as some, at least think he could become, it will, we will look back and go, it was Brooke Lopez and Kyle Kuzma for DeAngelo, Russell, and Timothy Moskoff. Eric Pinkis of Basketball Insiders made a point on his podcast, Hollywood Hoops, where he said he talked to a Lakers executive who said,

the executive, I guess, said Kuzma was their guy, whether it was picked 27 or picked 28. So in their eyes, I think the way the Lakers look at it is, like the hall for Russell was trading down from 28 to 30 and 42 and getting Josh Hart and Thomas Bryant, not Kuzma, which is weird because Kuzma still could have been taken 27th by the Nets if you didn't have that pick. I mean, I mean, I still, I'm with you, Chris, where Kuzma, Kuzma was the haul from the Nets trade. It just enabled you to trade your

other pick. The other thing while everybody's talking about it, I do need to go back if I can. I'm going to do this prior, but like there's going back and looking about him, it kind of, it reminds me a little bit. Again, I'm not saying he's going to be this guy, but I'm saying it reminds me a little bit of Clay Thompson in the sense that we weren't watching Kyle Kuzma all the time. And during college basketball, that season, he wasn't a massively relevant player in the national landscape. I mean, I understand he was first team all pack 12, but how many people were regularly watching or keeping up with Kyle Kuzma in college, thus probably why he went at the bottom

of the first round. I got to go back and look how he ended up at. Utah, because I'm just reading real quick. And it says offers came from Yukon, Iowa State, Tennessee, and Missouri before Kuzma decided on Utah. He's from Flint, Michigan. Yeah, he transferred high schools entering his senior year. He transferred to an academy, I believe, in Philly. Yeah, okay. And that was to get him more exposure to colleges. And that's when they kind of started flocking towards him. I guess Utah was the first school that really pushed for him. And I think that's part of the reason why he probably made his choice just because they were first and they

presented the most opportunity, whereas he might have rode the bench for a couple years playing for another college. So I think that was the primary reasons why. Well, maybe just a late bloom or two because, I mean, you know this. Colleges within the area are already talking to these kids when they're freshman in high school, right? For a kid like that from Flint to not end up at Michigan State or Michigan is surprising, unless, of course, he was not considered to be. I don't know where he was in recruiting rankings. Yeah, he was kind of a late, he was kind of a late bloomer, I think. I think that's part of the reason why, where he wasn't someone that until his junior season year, they're like, okay, yeah, this is for real.

Like, this is an achievable dream. So that's why it was like an important life decision for him to transfer schools to get more exposure. And it was, sure as hell was the right move for him. That's for sure. So you are a big believer in Kuzma. Right. I mean, I'm not going to say I'm a big believer, but I think I am a believer in the sense that he's at least going to be a quality player. It's just a matter of what level he reaches. But I certainly missed the mark on him. So did a lot of others that had him ranked in the 40s like I did. Going to give big ups to Mike Schmitz from Draft Express. He's someone that was super high on Kuzma all along the way. I remember at the NBA Combine in April or May, whenever it is, me and Mike, we're saying. We're sitting outside of Starbucks in Chicago and he's like talking up Coosba like dude this guy it's for real like he's going to be really good he's going to be a steal for somebody and Mike he was

a hundred percent right looks like I I tried the one I could find is the ESPN one it says he's uh he was a scout grade 80 and it was a four star recruit so all right out of high school yeah yeah so by the time he was a senior like there were certainly more teams on him and there were a couple of Michigan schools, Oakland and Detroit, that both had offered him. But anyways, yeah, it's just kind of odd, right, for a kid from Flint that played in Philly to end up in Utah. That's usually not the road that guys take. But I'll tell you this, you make it in Flint and Philly. That kid's got, there ain't nothing soft about him, I promise you. We wanted so badly to get through the preseason without massive injuries. That was our solemn,

and incredibly unfortunate to see the injury come, the injury news come out about Dante Exum, who I think, you know, by most proclamations, he is going to miss another season of basketball. He really had some moments, even in that Golden State series last year,

where I think there, at least for a quarter or two, he was the best player on the floor, and that was against the Warriors. But it was always flashed, of this. That is a, it's a loss, certainly for Utah. And, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I thought, I

I, I, I, I, I know, are you going to be able to reach whatever your ceiling was if you're him when the beginning of your career has just been so stunted? It's sad, Chris. I mean, I thought, I thought, I thought he was making some strides this preseason. Um, I, there, the opportunity was there for him this year. to get some run, to get some minutes. And now you just wonder, I mean, when is that chance going to come? I mean, he's a restricted free agent next summer.

Is that opportunity going to come from a different team? Or is Donovan Mitchell going to really just take control of the situation in Utah and establish himself as the future point guard there? Opportunity is everything. And Dante Exum is a guy who, with these random fluky injuries, the ACL and then this, he hasn't been very available. He hasn't had the opportunities to develop a rhythm on the court. And that's the big thing for point guards is get adjusted to the physicality, get adjusted to the speed of the game and the pace and all that. And he has never had an extended run consecutive years in a row to do that. And that's just disappointing to me because he is, he's one of those point guards that in the past couple years I thought was a very, very, very good talent.

and I hope this is like the last major injury he sustained because I still think he can be a good player. But we haven't seen him stay healthy and you got to be available. And he's a guy who unfortunately has not been very available since he was drafted in 2014. Kevin McHale versus James Hardin. Working as an on-air analyst now, McHale offered on NBA TV that Houston traded for Chris Paul because Hardin is, quote, is not a leader.

In response to a question about his old coach's comment, Hardin declared, McAil, quote, is a clown. How about that? You know, listen, Mikhail now is paid to be a broadcaster and to analyze situations. And he has an opinion on this particular, he's got an opinion on this particular situation that he would be, who would be better,

equipped to answer what level of leader James Harden is than a guy that was his coach for a couple of years. And I will tell you, I am firmly in the team McHale camp on this. I am glad he said what he said, right? Instead of, you know, it's so frustrating when, like, if you went out to go get a beer with Kevin McHale, he would tell you. Like, that's exactly what he would say. If he was, you know, they went out and got Chris Paul because this guy.

he ain't a leader all right like he is a great player but he's not a leader um and so i don't i don't i don't know man like i i i kind of want that out of if somebody's being paid to be an analyst and i ask him straight out about something like that he gave us his honest opinion on this and also that's what i would have thought anyway has anybody ever been has ever has anybody ever mistook James Hardin for some kind of great leader. I mean, good grief. We're coming off last season where the guy, every massive moment,

you go back all the way to Arizona State. You talk about big games in the NBA finals when he was in Oklahoma City. He was on the bench when they made that miraculous comeback against the Clippers. James Hardin is an immensely talented player. He's not necessarily the guy I'd have first pick to be in my foxhole

when I need somebody. And so I don't know. I'm team Mikhail. What about you? So here's what I'll say. I think both sides can be right. I don't know if both sides are right for sure. But here's one thing I was told when it came to MVP voting.

I just, you know, talk to some executives like, you know, what are you thinking? Like, you know, who in your opinion would be MVP? And basically everybody you talk to from the NBA thinks it's LeBron. And one of the points someone made to me was everybody's talking about James Harden. as a as the winner but the things people in the media don't account for is leadership those qualities that we can't see in the box core that you don't see in the numbers is leadership and that and he said to me that's where lebron is just so far ahead of the other two guys as in westbrook and harden leadership leading a team on the court off the court in the locker room on the plane

LeBron is just as valuable as it gets when it comes to leadership. And their point was that that's one of the reasons why he should be the most valuable player. And he made the point also, Hardin isn't somebody who necessarily takes charge in that sense. So I think Mikhail is probably right that James Hardin isn't a great leader. And that's okay. Well, listen, Kevin, this is, these games are all on TV and there's camera. There's 500,000 cameras at the games, okay?

We all get to see it. We see LeBron during free throws talking to everybody. We see him in the huddle grabbing somebody. I mean, hell, you could go do GIF searches and see LeBron with Kyrie and LeBron with, you know, back in the day with Wade and Bosch or whoever. We see it with Draymond Green. Right. Even with Kevin Durant, he's like a leader enough that he's barking at Kevin Durant. in that meme that everybody puts around all of the time.

Like when are you ever sitting and watching a Houston game and seeing James Harden run up and grab Eric Gordon or grab Pat Beverly or grab Clint Capella and tell them here's where you screwed up or barking at them or whatever else? Like that's, it's okay like you said, but that's not how he's wired. You're right?

Like, I mean, this stuff plays out right in front of our eyes. You know what? That's okay. like that's perfectly fine like it's it's not a bad thing to not be a leader i mean if anything having too many voices in a room could make could force guys to butt heads i mean could james hardin have accepted a role next to chris paul if he were this hard-nosed guy unwilling to really um give up his leadership position no it might not have worked i think personality is what is what is what will enable the hardin paul relationship their dynamic to be so

effective. I'm writing, writing about that for Thursday on the ringer. I think it might go up Thursday or Friday, but I think it's going to work incredibly well with Hardin and Paul. And part of the reason why is just their mindsets. Hardin has shown in the past in Oklahoma City that he is able to willingly take on a complementary role, an enhancing role where he plays a little bit more off ball. And I think part of that is due to his mindset where he isn't, he doesn't feel like he has to be the guy. He doesn't. He doesn't. have to be the man. And that's a special quality, in my opinion, that he's adaptable. And if that means he's not a vocal leader or he's not this guy who like stands on a table in the locker room and rallies guys, who cares? I mean, that's perfectly fine. Your team doesn't necessarily need to have a guy like that. It's interesting. I am less convinced than you. And, and I, and I, and I only say it may, they may not face any kind of massive adversity when it comes to the regular season. but I could see it coming to a head. Given those two guys and their personalities,

I could see it being a problem, especially when the chips are down and it's playoff time. I could see it, you know, there being a wheels fall off situation with that. Maybe, maybe. It'll be fascinating to see how those teams,

and we're talking about April already. It's going to be fascinating to see how Oklahoma City and Houston transition their regular season. Well, they probably won't be, as I said, they probably won't run into major difficulty when it comes during the regular season. I promise you there will be a moment where Chris Paul barks at James Harden

and James Harden rolls his eyes and it becomes this and it becomes a video that has passed around everything. That's going to happen. I'm with you. It's 100% going to have because it's happening with everybody Chris Paul has ever met in his life. Everybody. It's totally going to happen. Two other things real quick of the headlines.

Dwayne Wade was named a starter. I mean, once they signed them, I get the whole, you know, space. might not be as good as if you play J.R. Smith or whatever, but Tyron Loo is not going to bring Dwayne Wade off the bench. And so Wade is a starter. Weird. Weird. They have a weird team with a bunch of guards that can't defend the perimeter.

So I'm looking forward to seeing how they operate. All right. And the last thing, Markell Fultz, you got to see him in person. Recently, you commented on his ridiculous free throw form, which is just strange.

I saw you posted that video on Twitter and I watched it. And I was like, good grief. What is that? And the other thing is, let me just say this unfold. So we'll talk about the shooting stroke. And the other thing is I think there has been a sentiment, at least by those that I have talked to. And I saw Philly play last week. That people aren't real sure how that whole Simmons and Fultz at the same, like what kind of mix they are.

together now it is way premature to make any kind of proclamation on what they will look like together going forward right everybody has growing pains and they got to figure it out but i think there is you know um like fultz appears to be a guy that is way better suited to be playing on the ball um then off and if the ball is going to be primarily in simmons hands to run more of the offense then you've got some more figuring out to do if you're Markell Fultz than just adapting to the NBA. You've got to adapt to the NBA and in the process learn how to be, learn how to be effective without being the guy that has the ball in his hands all the time, right? Yeah.

And I think I think Fultz can do that. He shot well shooting threes off the catch last year at Washington. I think he's perfectly capable of it. The issue is he revised his shooting mechanics. that we see we observe at the free throw line he is this weird weird form where he brings the ball up to his shoulders kind of looks like shack a little bit he starts the ball high there's no rhythm to it and and i asked him last night after the game he he left the locker room and i kind of chased them out there and i asked him like did you change your free throw mechanics to minimize the pain

you're feeling from your shoulder injury that he has the sixer city as a sore shoulder and he admitted that it was a problem. Brett Brown said he thinks it's more of an issue than Fultz is letting on. So I asked Fultz and he said, yeah, for the most part. I'm just trying other things to make free throws at the end of the day. That's not an excuse for me. I'm just out there hooping. And then I asked him again, like I just wanted to reiterate for clarity's sake.

I asked him so, so that is part of the reason why you change your mechanics. He says, yeah, a little bit. And then we kind of just walked off because, you know, he was walking to the bus. And yeah. So that's part of the issue. The shoulder injury is causing to change as a mechanic. And if he can't shoot off the ball, that is going to hurt this dynamic with Simmons. Well, listen, I think it's hard to have a free throw form that looked like it did and then go back to having a good three point shooting form, right?

I mean, that's, right? Like, you just see the way he looks shooting that free throw. And then you say, but the guy can be a really good three point shooter. He can't be a good three point shooter shooting like that. That's ridiculous. And by the way, you didn't finish the story. He was walking to the bus. And the last thing he said was,

and get away from me, weirdo. You're the guy that thinks Ben shoots with the wrong hand. Like all you talk about is Ben shooting with the wrong hand. Hey, you know what? You know what? Here is my plan going in.

My plan going in was when he was with the little scrum with the reporters in the locker room. And if he was asked the question I was going to ask, I was going to follow up. Would you consider switching hands like your teammate Ben Simmons? But I think of the opportunity to ask that because nobody asked the question that I plan on asking. It was a strategic decision. But I had the question in mind.

I tell you what's going to happen is you are going to have this, you're going to have this moment where you walk into a Philadelphia locker room and they're going to be like, oh, God, it's the shooting guy. All he wants to talk about is like our shooting. But I'm right. I'm right, though. I'm right. he's wrong that's the thing look look okay

I'm not crazy you know I don't we've got a new one Kevin O shooter no I don't that one is pushing it I would give it I would give my life if both of them

simultaneously would say Kevin we understand that you think you're right but hey asshole we were both taken number one in the NBA draft we're doing okay Hey, you know, I just, I'm just going to add this.

Like, I have to say this. J.J. Redick on his podcast last year on the vertical was talking about DeAndre Jordan. And he said that he's talked to DeAndre and suggested, hey, why don't you try switching shooting hands? I think you're actually a righty, not a lefty. And DJ didn't do it. But JJ Reddick, one of the greatest shooters ever thought that a guy in the league shot with the wrong hand, his teammate DeAndre Jordan. and actually suggested that he changed hands. And you know what?

Here's the thing. With Ben Simmons, the stat is, the evidence is that he shoots over 80% of his non-jumpers with his right hand. With DeAndre Jordan, I looked at all his lob dunks. I forget what season it was, 1617 or 1516. I believe the number off the top of my head was over 80% of his dunks were with his right hand as well. Like when he has an open lane, he dunked.

with the right, which suggests that's his natural hand. That's the hand that he has a preference towards. It's the same thing with Ben Simmons. These guys are righties. And for whatever reason, they started shooting lefty. And it could be a mistake. I don't know if DJ would be good if he switched, but I think Ben Simmons would be good because he has really good touch with the ball,

with his right hand. I absolutely love it. Switch, Benny. Do it. Kevin, by next week, we are going to be, we're going to be ready for the NBA season. So I'll talk to you next Tuesday. Thanks, Kev. Talk to you then, Chris.

Excited. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you next week.