The Ringer NBA Show - The CP3 Trade, Phil Jackson's Firing, and What's Next for the Clippers? (Ep. 130)

Episode Date: June 28, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Ryan brings on Bill Simmons to offer up initial reactions to the news that Chris Paul is heading to the Houston Rockets (3:00). Then, The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor joins to give his thoughts on what's next for the Clippers (17:30). Finally, Knicks fan Jason Concepcion of The Ringer bids farewell to the Phil Jackson era in New York (56:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome to an emergency ringer NBA show. My name is Chris Ryan. Today I'm joined by Bill Simmons in an undisclosed location in New York. Then I'll be joined by Kevin O'Connor and Jason Concepcion, all the talk about this nuts day in the NBA where Chris Paul got traded to the Houston Rockets and Phil Jackson got fired in New York. All right. Emergency NBA show is Chris Ryan.

I'm joined by Bill Simmons. Bill, you're a little under the weather. You're in New York City, but the trade bells are going off. Here's Jason Concepcion. Is he, like, celebrating the Phil Jackson thing? He wrote a borderline libelous column for us that just like just took Charlie Rosen out, took Phil out, took the last four years out. He said he was, Phil was the worst executive of his lifetime. Wow.

And then he just vanished back into binge mode, just like a ghost. Wow. Interesting. I still think Isaiah Thomas was worse. Yeah. There's some other stuff with Isaiah that I think you have to factor in. But, okay, so let's start with a hard intrigue. Because I know that you said,

KOC wrote a piece today, we're going to talk to him about it in just a second, where he was like, this could work. You know, like that these guys, there's ways that Dan Tony could stagger the minutes, they could share the ball, it would work. But you didn't sound so sure. I get it.

It makes sense. When your two best players can't be on the court all the time, that worries me. I just go back to basic basketball. Three most ball-dominant guys in the league. I know they have all those time and possession stats. The eye test what I've seen. I think what was Hardin was first and Chris Paul was seventh.

Yeah. But when we're actually talking about it, the playoffs, you know, you're down three with 10 minutes left. And how does your team adjust what happens? Like those are two guys that just say, they grab the ball and they say, I got this. It worries me that James Hardin, we spent all of last year turning him into a point card and turning him into an elite point card who we never thought of him this way. but wow, James Hardin's a point card, and now they've added another point card. So now James Hardin's not a point card?

Look, I think they probably had to do this, the Rockets, because you're just treading water if James Hardin is the only superstar in a league that has all the... I get why they had to do it. If they give Chris Paul a five-year deal down the line, I think that is just basketball suicide. That's a terrible fit to me. I mean, I think if you can get James, you know, James Hardin obviously had a little bit of trouble closing out the playoffs there. And if there's one guy who's going to be able to get

you out of those early playoff rounds, it's Chris Paul. What? Did you watch basketball? That's the other problem here is that they didn't exactly get the Mariano Rivera of basketball. Yeah, I wrote a piece for the ringer at the end of April about it was called The Last Days of the Point God. This is the end of the line for Chris Paul as a marquee superstar because it's don't age that well. We have not seen. We have not a real example of somebody under 6-2 into a dominant guy still in their mid-30s. Like it just hasn't happened. Now, this trade actually makes the most sense for Chris Paul, ironically, if he can figure out how to coexist because he'll have somebody taking on the lion's share of the load

and all that stuff. But, man, from a chemistry standpoint, Harding goes either way, right? We've seen all-time chemistry catastrophes. Paul's a difficult guy to play with. It was interesting. I've been sick in bed all day just watching one ridiculous ESPN show after another. It takes for flying at me faster than the penicillin. But it was funny to hear multiple people talk about, I have clipper season tickets.

Like he's like leadership by anger. He's leadership by intimidation. I wouldn't call it. I don't think this is like it's just, it's going to be a weird mix. And then you have, all right, so let's play it out. Who's your five in crunch time? Right now. Paul Harden, Capella, Gordon.

Arisa. And Areza. And Arisa and Paul are really tight. Yeah. And Gordon. Okay. Is that beating the Warriors? No.

No. But I think what he's doing is he's gambling. Like, Daryl's going for him. We wound up talking to Kevin about this in a few minutes. But just obviously he's not interested in waiting five years for the Warriors to cycle down in any way. Okay. But here's my question then. If you're gambling, why not gambling?

gamble that you can get Chris Paul anyway. Why not gamble that on July 1st, this guy wants to leave the clippers so badly that you're just going to be able to get them anyway? Why trade assets for him? Because all the assets they traded are actually assets that they could have used to find the third guy that they're going to need to actually have a legitimate competition. Right? Yeah, because they just gave. You have to wonder who that person, so if whoever they wanted to be their third guy, you have to wonder whether or not they think that that person, you have to wonder whether or not they think that that person. is already going somewhere, whether it's Paul George, and he's going to Cleveland or he's going to

Boston or he's going to the Lakers or whatever the situation is. They don't have the assets for Paul George. No. Let's just cross that off. I don't know who it is. I was looking, it seems like it would be easy to be like, oh, they'll get that guy, and then you start scrolling through the rosters, and it's just really hard to find the guy, unless it's you're taking on somebody else's mistake.

The other thing, God bless young Kevin. I know he's coming up. He mentioned how they're going to have to use Ryan Anderson's contract to try to trade for something. I think Ryan Anderson's contract is completely untradable. I don't know who in their right mind would take $20 million a year this year, next year, and the year after that for Ryan Anderson. They couldn't even play him in the playoffs. Phil Jackson somewhere is like, wait!

Yeah, Phil Jackson, right with the triangle we would look at. But, you know, there's a lot of stuff that is stuff that's been floated out there as media things, and people are now running with them as fact. Like, the Knicks want to buy out Carmelo Anthony. Or Carmelo Anthony wants to buy out. Why would the Knicks do that? I followed this league my whole life. I can't remember anybody getting bought out with two years left on their deal who made that much money.

It becomes a little fantasy football at a certain point where you're just like, let's just put like all these guys. Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine that really, really happening. it's like 45 million and they buy him out they're going to buy him out for what like 25 like it's crazy and how is he not worth anything where are the teams that are trying to talk themselves into carmello for you know the next year or so at least i i just find it impossible to leave i think that was one of the reasons phil jackson probably got canned is that he was trying to make the case that they should just buy him out and start over and james dollen and entry i know nothing but even i know this is stupid

Why would we buy out somebody who can still score 25 points a game if you give them the ball? Can we talk about the Clippers for a second? Yeah, can we talk about Austin Rivers? Was he Patient X for this whole thing? He's certainly getting blamed somewhat for it. And in a funny way, it's interesting because I feel like Austin's catching more heat than Doc. Well, yeah, Doc who every story from the last year or so is just about how poorly run that team was. Who knows if that Michael Eve, who covered the team on the sidelines,

works for ESPN tweeted something about that there was a trade that Doc ended up not doing. Yeah, it was the mellow from Vuechich, yeah. It was, yeah, Carmelo and Sasha Vuevick. It's 10 years, I can't say his name, right. Maybe the penicillin will help with that. For Rivers and Crawford, and Doc didn't want to do it. That is, like, not only fireable, but it feels like he should go to, like, basketball jail for that. How do you not make that trade?

I don't know. It's unbelievable to me. That's like 15 cents on the dollar for Carmel, and not to mention you get rid of two guys making 12, 13 million a year who are like combo guards. And Jamal Crawford was terrible last season. Do you think that this improves or increases or decreases the chances of Blake's staying? So I think he's gone.

Okay. But what I liked about it for the Clippers and why I thought it was so smart is they actually got some assets for somebody who was going to leave anyway, who clearly was out the door. and, you know, whether you keep Beverly assets under really good contracts, you know, and Lou Wiley, I think, could easily fetch a number of pick. Remember in February last year there was all these tweets about how it was in demand? Teams coming after Patrick Barley, like, that guy does have trade value.

I think he's a good player. You know, I just think they're going to pick out a number one pick. Now they have two picks in the next draft to really do anything. But if you get rid of JJ and Blake, you and I have said this for months and months. Like, this just, this was done. This wasn't working anymore. This is the proverbial bad relationship when neither person wanted to move out of the apartment. And now stuff's happening.

Now, at Clipper Season tickets, it's just a flat-out debacle. I don't know. It was paying even half price for Clipper season tickets on the secondary market this year. It's a debacle. The Zeekeek is going to look like a biotech stock that just got short. It's going to be billions Charlotte Hornets tickets Anybody?

Would Bobby Axelrod even buy these And short them? Oh my God How funny is it going to be When I'm on our Ringer slack At like 3 o'clock on a Wednesday Asking if anyone

Wanted to go to the Coopergate today And everyone ignores it Like the text is doing nothing Sorry Bill I got to watch You know There's this great British Bigoff going on

Working out something Yeah just Sorry SG got something cooking Yeah Too bad out late notice. You know, here's the thing, no, if you're Blake Griffin, the move is to stay. Yeah. This is great. Now you have your team back. Now you can be like, you know what, this should

have my team all along and do that whole thing because I never really thought that he loved playing with Chris Paul. I always thought it was a little rocky. And now that, you know, we wrote this really prescient piece Griffin's future point four. The pieces they have now would actually work pretty well toward a point forward to kind of like. line up with him, right? Beverly plays off the ball. This is somebody who can run the offense or play off the ball, and Austin Rivers, same thing. It actually makes more sense to use him as the point forward now without Chris Paul. Yeah. So will they do that? Will he want to stay 50 year? Would you do that in a million years with all the surgeries he's had? Would you give him

five years? No, and that's something that I think that Kevin's been talking about for a long time, is that like this idea that the Clippers necessarily wanted five more years of these guys is really obviously now been dispelled. I have a question for you. Yeah, hit me. How many of the players that were involved in the cash consideration traits today had you actually heard of? I definitely think Tim Quartermann is an EA sports-generated name.

Tim Cortman was in Season 2 of Bill. He cheated with Axe at the fourth episode. Him and Dollar Bill at the dry cleaners. Tim Corterman was the guy who blocked Axe from buying the NFL team. Then there was a couple other guys. There was some guy that had a lot of vowels in his name. I didn't know who that guy. I knew who DeAndre Liggins was.

He was on the cab. But it was just funny how many non-guaranteed contract guys were available. And how does that work? Is there like a GM text? Like how MeU and Fennessee and Mallory and Julie, 30 GMs just on the text? And more he's like, hey, I need non-guaranteed guys. Anybody? Hey, has anybody heard from Phil?

He's not responding. Phil's like, can you take me off this? I don't know a job anymore. But I think this is more. fun for right yeah yeah it was the Vince Vaugh and Jennifer Aniston movie it was it was a break up it was pretty excruciating after a while watching them losing the second round to San Antonio next year or

whoever would have just been tough so Blake doing though this is my team now I'm completely healthy I'm gonna win the MVP puffing his chest little players tribune piece yeah that could be kind of fun yeah and then Hardin and Chris Paul is just going to be fascinating together with everybody nitpicking every sort of bite. Watch this video of Chris Paul shaking his head when Hardin waves him off. That's going to be happy. DeAndre texting Cuban and saying you up, Cuban just texting back a picture of Nerlins.

Right. Whoever Bore's media cronies are, like texting or tweeting that there's some sort of market for Ryan Anderson that doesn't exist. We'll see. Teams becoming increasingly confident that Ryan Anderson will get moved. Okay. That's not happening. and then the Carmelo watch.

Yeah. Which if you're the Knicks, you know, you took this French guy because you're going to fit in the triangle, and now you're not going to run the triangle anymore. So now if you're a Knicks fan, your biggest fare is moved from Porzengis is going to get traded, I'm going to lose my mind to Malik Monk could go off in Charlotte, and we took this guy because he's a fit in the triangle,

and now we're not running the triangle. I think Melo is staying on New York. Yeah. Unless, you know, there's a DC possibility with him if they did an auto porter sign and trade would... Yeah, I mean, I think that the story now is that he wants

to stay close to his kid. Obviously, Lala staying in New York. I just don't think he's going to go to some West Coast team away from his son. So I think he, the D.C. thing would be very interesting. But, yeah, I think that's it.

How many teams can actually win the title? 1.5. It's the Warriors and whoever LeBron plays for. I think the Celtics are going to get Hayward and Paul George and they're going to be in the conversation. Sorry, Bill, you're breaking up. You're breaking up, Bill.

I just, that's how I feel. You can't, you can't shame me. You can't rumor shame me. I'm going to feel how I want to feel. Okay. I think that's, I bet on that one. Bet on black. We're going to talk to Kevin O'Connor now

about everything that doesn't have anything to do with Boston. Thank you for joining us, Bill. Send Trey-Fraiser, my love, and tell him I can't wait to cough on them on Friday. Okay, feel better. I am joined by the ringers Kevin O'Connor to sort through one of the most chaotic league changing days in the NBA that we have had since last July 4th

when Kevin Durant left the thunder to go to the Warriors guys today Chris Paul was traded from the clippers to the rockets Kevin my head is still spinning because last night ended your night ended I'm sure with these woge bombs about Phil Jackson and James Dolan reevaluating his relate the next relationship

with Phil Jackson, and then we wake up, Phil's out, we start getting these trickle of rumors about Hinky, about Maasai, about David Griffin, who's going to take over the Knicks, and boom, Chris Paul traded to the Rockets for a haul of okay pieces, a protected number one pick, first round pick, and Kevin, I don't mean to, like, start with some self-dap, but a 10 days ago I wrote a piece about this possibly happening, and just like as like a kind of thought experiment, and the one thing that I wrote that you and I've talked about a lot since then is that the Warriors demand a gamble. And this seems like Darrell Mori really pushing his chips in. Absolutely does, Chris. And you just say to me all the time, basketball never sleeps.

And like, I'm very thankful that I don't sleep. Because there's not a lot of sleep that we had right now with the craziness in the NBA. And you're right. Like that line that you wrote, the Warriors deserve a gamble. They demand a gamble. I can't get that out of my head when like looking at the decisions some of these teams are making. And that's exactly what Houston's doing right now. I mean, it is a risk. You know, Chris Paul could leave in 2018. I mean, they want to trade for Paul George, who could also leave in 2018, but that's the type of gamble you need to take. And I think what Houston is doing is really remarkable. It's, it's, I don't know, I don't really know how to imagine how Hardin and Paul's going to work. When we, when we first talked about this, I thought

they could have some issues, but I've thought a lot about it. And I feel like it's going to work. But at the same time, like, they're not done. It's hard to think, how are they going to work? Because they're not done yet. There's still more to come. That's the wild part here. Right.

So there's two separate conversations then. It's like, how is this going to work and what else is more you going to do? I kind of want to jump on the first, the second one first. I want to talk a little bit about what more he's going to do next because I think that does inform the first. But I also think it's worth pointing out to folks listening. Obviously, we've been living in the more. Bore ball era for a while.

Darrell's kind of the avatar for a lot of the advanced analytics that have taken over many of the front offices of the NBA. In some ways, he's changed the way we talk about basketball. He's changed the way we think about basketball. The idea of talking about someone's effective field goal percentage or true shooting percentage or, you know, the idea that mid-range shots aren't as valuable as three-pointers and layups and foul shots, all these ideas that we take for granted at this point as just like sort of part and parcel of the game are ideas that maybe Daryl didn't invent these ideas,

but he popularized them, right? And one of the reasons why Daryl's so respected and controversial is that he's often one step ahead of the game. And I think we're in baseball, Billy Bean, baseball caught up with him. Dary's showing that he still has a couple of tricks. This is like really opaque, but can you talk a little bit about what Mori pulled off in terms of working with the cap, in terms of pouncing on an opportunity when it was there, in terms of doing something unexpected that is taking the league by such surprise today.

All right. So, to put it simply what happened, right? Like, they could have done a crisp ball trade by taking him into their cap space. But had they done that, what would have happened is they would have lost their mid-level exception and their biannual exception. If they lost those, they would have lost the ability to sign some good free agents this summer. However, what they did was trade cash for all their low-level players on salaries like Darren Hilliard from the Detroit Pistons. And they got DeAndre Liggins from the Mavericks, right? Yes.

A handful of guys. And now instead, they're packaging all those salaries together to trade for Paul. And they're going into, they're going over their cap space. So now, because of the way the trade is structured, they retain those exceptions. It's just magnificent. Yeah, and we're all kind of, I think. Every single step that happened. We were taken by surprise by the timing of this, but the timing is essential, right?

Because if it had gone after July 1st, the trade would have looked a lot different, right? Yes. Okay. So today the hall going towards L.A., the package going to L.A., and correct me if I'm wrong, it's Decker, Sam Decker, Pat Beverly, Lou Williams, Montrez-Harrell, and a protected first round pick. And then the guys that they are signing for cash considerations, they are also going to the clippers or they are staying on the Rockets? I believe it's confusing.

I believe it's a seven or eight player trade that includes DeAndre Liggins, Tim Quartermman, Ryan Kelly, and Darren Hilliard. I'm pretty sure those are the other four names. And will all those guys stay on the clippers? I'm not so sure about that. I'm doubtful that all of them will. Well, here's the question. Who decides that.

Who's deciding that. Quality, like, players. Yeah, yeah. But who's deciding that in Los Angeles is another huge conversation. Is it Jerry West or Doc Rivers? That's a big question. There was a report that Jerry West wasn't at the meeting with Chris Paul. So I don't know what that really says.

Right. Because they had a meeting that Woj reported about a couple of days ago or yesterday where they met about the future. And it sounded like things were, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to read into a Wodge tweet. It's not exactly. But it was like it didn't sound like this was an. eminent thing that he was going to be dealt. One of the things that has come up today a little bit is about how the new collective bargaining

agreement is largely the work of Chris Paul, right? Like he's the Players Union president, this idea of having, what is it, the Super 36 or what's the wrinkle in the CBA that would have affected him? The, yeah, the over 38. Now it's the over 36. So he can sign for about five years, $200 million plus dollars. unbelievable. But instead, he opts into his last year with the Clippers and then gets traded.

Which, does that feel like pointedly, like almost, is that good for the Clippers? Like, I don't even know how to read that move. It's basically him doing- I would say the Clippers come out pretty well. Yeah, but it's basically Paul being like, I'm leaving right there. Yeah, but he's saying, like, I'm leaving and you guys should get something for me while you can. Yep. It was mutually beneficial because for Houston, like, everything we just talked about with their

salaries. They're more flexible now instead of just signing Paul into cap space, whereas at least LA for their sake, they get some talent in return. They get a 2018 first John draft pick that's top three protected. And then Patrick Beverly is a hell of a point guard. I mean, he's excellent defensively. I think he's capable of a little bit more offensively when he gets the opportunity. So both teams make out here. So if you're the clippers, why not do, it was done to the Pacers, but why not basically open the bidding then? Why not see if there's anything else out there, whether it's a Spurs deal?

I looked around, I tried to kick the tires on that on the trade machine and that was not working out well for me as a Spurs deal for Paul. My guess, Chris, is just simply Paul would have opted out. He would have just opted straight out of the deal if he wasn't trade to Houston.

He had all the leverage in this whole shebang that happened this morning. If the Clippers open up trade negotiations to the Milwaukee Bucks, Paul could just opt right out, you know? So, like, I think that's probably what happened with L.A., where they only had one option, one place that they could send him, because otherwise he was going there no matter what. Wow.

I mean, the thing that's so interesting about this is for as much as we've been openly talking about whether it's Paul George or Jimmy Butler or who's Boston going to get, is it going to be Hayward, is it going to be this person. The idea that this is not something that Chris Paul thought of yesterday. This is obviously something that he and his representatives have been thinking about for a while and for that to never have leaked out, for us to only just kind of be this only appearing now, do you think that this is something that he's been sitting on for a while?

I mean, is this even something you had heard of? I mean, I think there's been some, there's been the noise that he's been looking around and thinking about the spurs, and then obviously the Rockets came out. And I know when me and Bill did the podcast, I don't know how long it was, two weeks ago or something like that.

We talked about Paul, but it was more through the context of Spurs, more so than Rockets. I forget exactly, but I think Bill might have mentioned briefly the idea of the Spurs, but at the same time, like, it was more hypothetical than anything else. And that's where this morning was just so stunning. The fact that it happened now, it happened so quickly with just so many different players. And as for Paul, I mean, that's the thing.

Like a lot of people, oftentimes, like players will say, oh, I'm just focused on right now, focused on my team. But that's like BS. Like, it's only natural for a player to look forward and think about what their future is going to be, especially when they're going to be a free agent. Chris Paul said last year to the USA Today that he talked to KD before his free agency is like, this is your chance to like choose where you want to play, where you want to live, what type of lifestyle you want.

And like he commended him for the choice that he made. So like that kind of, I think in a way alluded to the fact that Paul was thinking at that time last year that, hey, I'm looking forward to my free agency so because I can make my choice. And that's exactly what he did. Even if during the year all these guys admit they're not thinking about it. In the back of their minds, it's something that they have to consider because it takes planning for this type of stuff to happen. So one of the things that Daryl said to Zach Lowe when Zach wrote his post-finals piece about how the Warriors were built and what the league is going to do to try and combat them is that the Warriors would demand that the rockets were prepared to raise, quote, their risk profile. So they get Chris Paul, arguably one of the best point guards who's ever played.

What's the risk? Then he walks. He walks next summer. That it blows up. Hardin and Paul don't coexist. Hardin can't deal with Paul's antics on the floor and they hate each other. And then next summer, Paul walks and goes to the Lakers or something like that. And Houston is left without any assets and they only have James Hardin on their roster.

I think that's the risk. but at the same time, you're getting one of the best point guards ever, right? So I think this is a risk you're willing to take because this is what you need to do to arm yourself and give yourself a chance at beating the warriors. So we watch basketball all the time and we have these conversations and there's this discourse about oh, Hardin can't play defense or Chris Paul seems like a pain in the ass to play with.

This is going to be a really interesting test about what we do and don't know because these are guys that played together in the Olympics. They played for Dan Tony, who was an assistant coach during the Olympics. This is obviously another Team USA birth super team that we're seeing. A lot of people think that the Healds came out of that. You know, it came out of the Olympic team as well. And we have this concept of what these guys play like and what they must be like just based on how much time we spend watching them play.

But we're going to find out a lot about whether or not change is possible. You know what I mean? We're going to find out a lot about whether or not these guys are comfortable without the ball, whether or not they're comfortable holding each other accountable, whether Mike Dantonie can figure out a way for his system to work when there's not a single primary ball handler. But you had a piece today on the ringer that kind of suggested some of the ways that that could happen. And the biggest thing that you brought up was this idea of staggering minutes, which is something Doc Rivers seemed allergic to. He was very allergic to it.

I mean, like probably the most allergic you can be. Well, when I got an allergy test years ago I was allergic to Paul in as much as you can be. That's Doc with staggering minutes. But the thing is, is Mike D. Antony's not. He's not afraid to do it. He wasn't last year. You look at the minutes distribution for guys like Patrick Beverly and Eric Gordon. Those guys, when Hardin was off the floor, their usage changed.

Gordon became a go-to score and Patrick Beverly became the de facto Mory, the de facto de facto Dantone point guard running a heavy load of pick and roll. So look, what's going to happen? now is Paul and Hardin are going to play a lot together. But at the same time, there's going to be 48 minutes in the game, and at least one of them is going to be on the floor nearly the entire damn game. And that is really unheard of. So I think in that sense, this has to be a dream for Dan Tony that he's going to be able to stagger their minutes, play these guys individually. When Chris Paul's off, Hardin can get the same role he had this past season. When Hardin's off,

Paul can do the same exact thing he has always done dominating the ball. And it's going to work when they're not off the floor. The thing is, obviously, when they're together. But my thing is, Chris, I think they can coexist. Hardin has done it before when he played for Oklahoma City. He played off the ball. He was really the third wheel of the group with T Evan Durant and Russell Westbrook. And he can kind of go back into that role where he's slashing, hitting spot-up,

threes, you know, attacking closeouts, cutting to the rim. He can do that and he's done it extremely effectively. That's what made him so enticing to the Rockets as a trade target in the first place. I think Paul will be the main guy in the offense when they're both on the floor. But Hardin can do it too. And I just think that dynamic is going to be fascinating because instead of just running a single high pick and roll, I think that they can do more off ball. The Antoni is going to be able to get creative.

I'm going to be fascinated to see what type of wrinkles they unveil with these guys. Do they take away Chris Paul is a pretty, he likes his mid-range jumper. Is that going to be a thing of the past? Like, what is he retiring that? Are we going to have a retirement ceremony for his mid-ringed jumper? Yeah, I think we might have to have at least a semi-retirement ceremony for him because he's not going to be able to shoot it as often. However, Chris, what if last year's playoffs, you know, this year's playoffs,

rather, their loss in the playoffs kind of showed maybe the importance of the mid-range situations because there was times, like the spurs were just baiting them into shooting mid-range jumpers, like the way they were defending them It was like they were asking them to shoot them, and they wouldn't. Instead, they were just kick it out to three where the player wasn't open because they weren't helping off the shooter. So maybe, perhaps, they will be more willing to allow a guy like Paul, who is an elite mid-range shooter to do it in certain situations, not early in the clock. You're not going to take a pull-up to in transition, but late in the clock, it's not a bad shot necessarily to get that when there's only five seconds left. Yeah, and also, I mean, I think that your whole point about the staggering of minutes is such an important one.

because series after series in the playoffs, whether it was the Wizards, the Thunder, and eventually the Cavs, and the Rockets, we saw these teams completely combust when their main engine was on the bench, even for just a few minutes. And we also saw those engine players, those Walls, those Hardens, those Westbrooks. At the end of games, maybe their decision-making wasn't as sharp.

Maybe like Wall at the end of that Celtic series, their legs were too heavy. Maybe like Hardin, where it's like, you know, there's all sorts of like James Harden late series voodoo going on. But he essentially looked tired, right? And he was making bad decisions. Maybe having someone like Chris Paul out there, whether it's to take some of the burden, change the tempo, have more responsibility on ball handling, take that, you know, that best perimeter score. And he's defending them.

I guess the next question is, obviously these two guys can't beat the Warriors. on their own and they probably can't do it with Eric Gordon. So what happens next? What's Daryl's next move here? I bet you would say the ideal acquisition would be Paul George. How do they do that? I don't know how they do that. I'll tell you that, Chris.

I'm very confused with the Paul George plan because I think the only way they get him is if another team and, you know, sorry to have to mention the Celtics, but it's if the Celtics say the price is too high, without a guarantee that George will, well, not even a guarantee, but at least a sense that George would resign the following year. So it's if the Celtics lower what they will give, then that opens the door for Houston to give that same type of mix of veteran talent with picks.

But at the same time, like, I still wonder, like, if I'm Indiana, is that enough? I still feel like there has to be something better out there because you look at what Houston, the best they can potentially offer. They already dealt Patrick Beverly, who I thought there was, was their best asset in a deal for George, but maybe instead you put Eric Gordon on the table. Maybe you flip Ryan Anderson.

I don't know. There's multiple ways to attack this, but they don't have the depth of assets that they did before after dealing Patrick Beverly. If you're Indiana, does Capella sweetened it all or is Capella too like Miles Turner? I'd want to hang on to Capella if I'm Houston, but I think Capella would certainly be a sweetener

if Houston's willing to put him on the table. I mean, at a certain point. He's going to have to actually pay a nickel instead of five pennies for something. So, I mean, Gordon going back to Indiana is nice enough. He just won the sixth man. I guess he would have a lot of looks in Indiana and everything. But, I mean, I'm not picking up the phone unless Clint Capella is part of that deal. Yeah.

Capella is one of the guys that I would really kind of demand in the deal. I think Capella really, I don't know if he'd be the perfect fit next to Miles Turner, but at the same time, Turner can space for you. And Capella is an excellent rim runner. Both of those guys still need to make strides defensively, but they're quite good for a young age. So I think that would be a terrific front court for Indiana. But at the same time, like I said, if I'm Houston, he's the guy I'd really want to hang on to because I think he really completes that starting five. Mike Dantone, when I interviewed him last year for the Rockets article, we posted on the ringer, he mentioned like the five is really the glue, the most important part of their offense, just the rim runner.

And that offense sucking in the defense that four, that allows, opens driving lanes from the. the ball handler that opens up passing lanes to open spot-up shooters. That is a really important role. You look at all the big rim runners he's had from R.A. Stodomire to Tyson Chandler, now to Clint Capella. It's important. And Capella is really the only guy left in the roster who can do that. It's just be a lob threat at the level they have.

Okay, so I don't even, now I don't even know what's less likely. Them getting Paul George with a package that doesn't include Capella, or Mello reuniting with Eil Bafo. Come on. Can we get the Mike and Mello show going again? So that is another thing that came up is Stephen A. God bless him, coming through with the if Mello is bought out in New York, Houston is a possible destination.

I don't know. Are we forgetting the Mike Dantoney administration in New York? I don't know, but I would love. I'm sure Mike would love to forget it. Well, you know what? This is another thing about what we know and what we don't know. I have no idea. Maybe Mello and Dantone broke bread and they're cool.

Like maybe Mello is. like that sounds great. I become basically like pure offense in this like, you know, crystal meth Houston offense. That's great. Like maybe he's into that. He's been playing in this stodgy, bad version of the triangle for the last couple of seasons. Maybe he would want to be in this like super like modern set. And maybe he could get over whatever issues he had with Dantonie in the past. Yeah. I mean, it's just kind of funny when you're thinking about it because just like one year ago, leave was on Adrian Ward Janowski's podcast that Dan Tony essentially admitted that Mello forced him out and that's why he's quit.

Yeah, but Mike got his coach in the year. It's all good. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But here's the thing, though, like, if you're the Rockets and if you're Carmelo and you're Dan Tony, you're thinking to yourself like, huh, if we can get Carmelo with Chris Paul. And if Dwayne Wade gets bought out or he's a free agent next year, we have 75% of banana

about. That's what I'd be thinking about. I'd be thinking, oh, wait a minute, we're one trade away from creating space for LeBron. That's the way I would be thinking about about those guys. When they get mellow, and when Dantone inevitably gets fired at the All-Star break, that is the 19th episode of Twin Peaks.

It's just a 60-minute zoom shot on Mike Dan Tony's face when he finds out. Who are some other options for Houston here? There's the George idea. There's the Mello idea. There's the way dream of almost all. of Banana Boat minus LeBron joining Houston save some sort of massive move like that. Are we talking about mid-level exception guys?

Are we talking about a Millsap run? Like what are we talking about here? Yeah. I would say Millsap has to be the other guy. You just look around the league. Millsap, you could always say maybe they try to make space and make a surprise run at Gordon Hayward. They would really need to open up cap. I don't know the exact numbers for that, but I believe it would be a possible.

possibility. Okay. If they, but they would have to renounce all their exceptions. They would have to trade Gordon and Anderson and they would have to fly down below half space again. But I don't think that's a path. I don't think that's a realistic path. But I'm just saying, like anything's possible, right?

We've seen a lot of madness happening in this free, it's not even free agency yet, not even July 1 yet, Chris. Okay. Madness has already happened. So they have options. Millsap seems to be the most realistic, though. We got, we know what's going on with the rockets instead that we don't know what's going on with the Rockets. Before we get to the Clippers, let's talk about some of Chris Paul's

other suitors and what some of the other teams around the rockets kind of competitive-wise, not necessarily geographically, but competition-wise, what this does to their thinking. You wrote a piece that, God Love You, was almost instantly irrelevant once it went up this morning about the San Antonio Spurs and their possible pursuit of Chris Paul. So that's not going to happen. And they couldn't have made a better offer. to the Clippers, unless they wanted to include, unless the Clippers just decided that they wanted to trade for LaMarcus Aldridge, which would have just been really weird.

So what does this mean for the Spurs? What does this mean for some of the other teams around the Clippers in that 3, 4, 5 Western Conference area? So I think for the Spurs, obviously, like the first, like 700 words of that article are totally irrelevant now. So just scroll down to the last section where I don't talk about Chris Paul. and I instead say, hey, why don't they just dump everybody, trade Tony Parker, trade Lamarcus Aldridge, and make a run at Blake and Gordon Hayward.

That's kind of the other plan. So, like, if I'm the Spurs, that's what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking really big hair. I would love to see Blake Griffin in the Spurs offense. Charks wrote a great piece yesterday. I'm about giving Blake more ball handling opportunities. Yeah, that's something, you know, that was my first article on the ringer, just about does Blake have another gear? And I think he does.

I would love to see him in an offense that, like a motion offense or ball moves and he has more point opportunity. So that would be kind of the plan for the spurs. But other than that, man, you know, what do you think? Like George Hill, is that a guy you settle for to kind of bridge the gap between your present and then your future with DeJante Murray and Derek White? I don't know. Like, there's no other really top options. That's where I'm like, why are we not talking about Hayward and plate Griffin? Yeah, I think that you just have to wait and see if you can get someone to get Desmond.

for Lamarcus, especially if Cleveland, because of their front office turmoil, doesn't wind up getting George, they have love. So there's not really a four who's like a traditional four. I'm really just trying to talk myself into this. I don't even believe it. But really, like, I think trading Lamarcus is their best bet. As far as, like, the teams around them, you know, I was wondering whether you thought that this move that Chris did, this, I'm going to opt in for my last year and demand a trade, basically, to the team of. my choice, is that something that we might see elsewhere in the league? Is there any other guy who is an opt-in situation that you could see them be like,

I'm going to opt-in for a sign-in trade? I mean, Gordon's unrestricted, right? Yes. Okay, so he can't. Gordon-Hawood. Gordon-Hawood, you mean? Yeah. Gordon-Haword?

Yeah. Gordon-Haword currently hasn't opted out officially yet. Okay. So he still has his player option and he hasn't officially opted out. So theoretically, he could opt-in and do the same exact thing that Chris Paul was doing. He could go, hey, I'm opting in. By the time we post this, it's popular. Trade me to Boston.

Right, okay. And Utah might say, like, awesome. Let's do that. Theoretically possible, yes. Okay, okay. So let's talk about the Clippers. We all, you know, we came out of that playoffs. This is the pre-Jerry West era.

We come out of the postseason, another Clippers failure. And the noises coming out of Doc's mouth against all odds are, you know, you don't break up a good team. I believe in these guys. A couple tweaks, yada, yada. We're going to go for it again. I want to bring everybody back. But the drumby of breaking up the big three has gotten louder and louder and louder.

There was rumors of DeAndre Jordan being dangled on draft night. I would love to see the sliding doors version of this week if DeAndre had moved on draft night and they had brought some people back. I wonder what would have happened. There are some absolutely A plus just right off the Benihana flattop rumors about. about why Chris Paul is leaving the Clippers involving Austin Rivers. There are just some incredible gossip stories out there. I don't know why Chris is actually leaving. It might just be a change of scenery.

It might just be that he decided that playing with James Hardin was a better bet than playing with Blake Griffin. Maybe he's like, I just need to get a new start. I need one last act in my career here, and I can't just go through my whole life in L.A. wondering what have been? but what happens now for the Clippers? Are we going to do a podcast next week

and we'll be talking about the end of the Blake era or are we talking about the Clippers are now building through Blake Griffin? It's a tough question. I think Reddick leaves. So if you're Blake Griffin, you're looking at that situation and you're thinking a couple thoughts to yourself. You're thinking, okay, I can be the guy now. I'm the guy in L.A.

I'm going to be featured. I'm going to have the opportunity to really just control the offense. I'm going to get to be Point Blake. I'm going to be the power guard. And so that's one enticing option for him. But on the other hand, you're thinking to yourself, well, this is a team that's kind of in transition. I don't know what their future looks like. They could suddenly decide to pull the plug at any moment and trade me.

They're not a team that's necessarily going to continue doing this because it might not work out. So if you're Blake, I would have that fear. I would be nervous about the fact that they could pull the plug on this at any moment's notice and trade me to Milwaukee or somewhere. or I don't want to play. Indiana, you know, maybe he does want to go there. I don't know. But at the same time, you want to control your destiny if you're Blake Griffin.

So those are really the two sides that I would be thinking about if I were Blake. Whereas there could be other options. There could be Boston. There could be at Miami. I mentioned San Antonio. I have no idea if they have interest. I think they should. Those are appealing places, too.

Sure. You might not get the five-year max from L.A., but I'll tell you what. I'm not sure they're going to give that to him anyway. Right. Like the sense I've gotten from every agent, every executive I've talked to, is that people don't think the clippers are going to give Blake a five-year max contract. So unless that's on the table, the advantage L.A. has isn't significant.

So that's where I'm thinking to myself, like, sure, they might want to make him the focus and bring him back. But are they going to go to five years and really give themselves that advantage? I don't know. I don't think they will. Yeah. Do they want Blake as the, do they need Blake in L.A. to put him on big billboards outside of the next stadium that they move into, the next arena they move into?

Or do they want to start getting ready for the next wave of Clippers players? What I can't get over is the fact that you look in Los Angeles and in New York and Cleveland, three of the biggest teams in the league right now in terms of either reputation, history, or actual standing in the game. And we don't know who's running those teams. We don't know who's calling the shots. We don't know if it's Doc or West or Balmer in L.A. There is no head of, Steve Mills is ostensibly making decisions

and the basketball decisions in New York right now. And in Cleveland, Griff's out and Chauncey hasn't taken the job yet. So you've got a bunch of really important pieces in this league with unknown futures because nobody knows who's making the phone calls or picking them up. And I can't remember a time that's been like this. It's unbelievable. It's like I tweeted earlier today. about how it's amazing how much of a difference having a good general manager can do for your franchise.

Like you look at Phil Jackson last week as shopping, one of the best young players we have in this game. Meanwhile, Daryl Morey is attempting to put together a super team going for Chris Paul, putting this crazy wild package together to get it done. He's also interested in Paul George and whoever else. Like the disparity is so significant. And then we have Dan Gilbert firing one of the best general manager or letting go of one of the best general managers in the game and Dave Griffin. It's just amazing what front office and ownership, the impact that they have on winning.

It all trickles down from the top. And there are some ownerships across this league that are terrific. There are others like the Bulls that trade away valuable second round picks for cash. And it's disappointing for fan bases that are stuck with bad owners or bad front offices. And here's one thing that I think brings us back to the beginning of our conversation. Then we can move on to whatever Nick's entry we can drum up. But when we go back to the beginning of the conversation, and this idea of the Warriors demanding a gamble,

I kind of feel like what we're seeing is different interpretations of that idea because a lot of these owners, some of them I think are just happy to have a toy don't need the hassle of anything else. And some of them are old school or whatever, but a lot of these guys, like, Balmer's competitive. You know what I mean?

Like these guys are pretty successful. And if you go to them, you're like, look, man, I'm going to put on a good face when I go to this press conference. but nobody's beating the Warriors for the next five years, at least. They might not want to hear that, you know? And I don't think that's what happened with Griffin. I think Griffin was just,

Dan Gilbert does not like paying his front-off executives until he does, and then he doesn't. I mean, it's just, that seems to be what happened there. But I have to wonder whether or not Jerry West's advice to Balmer, as someone who's coming from the Golden State Organization is like, oh, man, you're not going to beat these guys. You didn't beat these guys 10 times in a row you've lost to them with your best team.

So if you think that you're going to go out there and beat them with just Blake, you're not. And maybe start getting some kids in here, maybe start loosening up some cap space. Put yourself in a position where, you know, do I think that LeBron's going to go to the Clippers in a year? No. But you want to be a Los Angeles team with cap space

is always going to be attractive, you know, to some players. and I think that if the clippers come into next season with Kyle Lowry and Blake Griffin are they making the playoff? Sure, I think so, right? But the question is, is like, are the clippers trying to mount a challenge to the Warriors or are they, I think Danny said this in his piece today,

Danny Chow, are they basically going to wait it out in a bunker while this arms race is taking place? What would you say? I think it's the latter. They're waiting it out. I think Jerry West, what happened right away on draft night was them trading cash for Juan Evans and Sedaris Thornwell. That's something Doc Rivers would never do. That move to me, I wrote on the ringer this week, is that it had Jerry West's fingerprints all over it.

And that's the way this Chris Paul decision kind of seems to me, too. I wonder if Jerry West didn't want to give Chris Paul the five-year max too, because then you'd be paying Chris Paul at 37 years old. Full max contract, that has a strong element of risk that, as you said, Chris, may not get you anywhere because you're just banging your head against the door, running back the same team that hasn't worked. So in that sense, I think Jerry West probably has had an influence on their decision making so far with the picks, trading for the picks and letting go of Chris Paul, or rather trading Chris Paul. So look, I think it's smart in the sense that Doc Rivers, in my opinion, just screwed up this whole last four years. He should have traded Blake when he has.

had a good opportunity last year, last summer, or last year at the deadline, because there was an opportunity to, I believe, just reshuffle the deck and get some, get more defensive oriented talent that I think would have fit the roster construct more. And you possibly could have opened up some cap space too. So you wouldn't be signing old veteran players that you would have to rely on. So I think Doc, having Jerry West, there is going to help them a lot. But at the same time, like, they certainly are taking a step back these next couple years because I don't, I don't see a path that makes sense for them to compete for a title. The only path at this point that really makes sense is just take a step back, draft, and develop, and maybe retain

DeAndre Jordan or retain Blake Griffin, retain some centerpiece for the team. But at the same time, you need to be thinking three years down the road and not immediately in the 2017-18 season. Yeah, you've been preaching this for a while on the site. And sometimes I'm like, I don't, that's not really what you talk about when you're like people need to be getting ready for anthony Davis you know like that's that's the that's the next mile marker the the league is more or less decided if the if the warriors can avoid catastrophic injuries you're not going to compete with them unless you have LeBron or some miraculous combination of talent but I think that's difficult for a lot of people to accept I think it's difficult for fans to accept I think it's difficult

for some players to accept, and I would imagine it's difficult for front offices and coaches to accept. You talk about what Doc's done over these last four years. One of the juiciest tidbits in Michael Eves, who's an ESPN guy, wrote on his Facebook page.

This is not necessarily like, you know, triple-sourced Washington Post stuff, but it is like there. He talked about a lot about Chris Paul's lack of love for Austin Rivers. But he mentions in passing that, this is a quote from his page. What solidified Paul's dissatisfaction with Doc was a proposed trade involving Carmelo Anthony last season.

New York offered Carmelo and Sasha Vujic to the Clippers in exchange for Jamal Crawford, Paul Pierce, and Austin Rivers, a deal to which Rivers ultimately said no. That event led Paul to feel that keeping his son on the roster was more important to Doc than improving the team. I don't know if that's true. It's hard to view it as false, but I don't know if it's true. Have you heard that before? I believe every word of it Okay

Yeah That is gonna be A because it makes It makes sense It just makes sense And also like You hear some things Just about how

You know Guys don't really love Austin Rivers And yeah exactly So I believe it I believe it So we could have had a New York Knicks team With Austin Rivers Now we have a New York Knicks team

Without Austin Rivers And without Phil Jackson And so to wrap things up here, let's just talk a little bit about the Knicks. Best guess, how long is it going to take to undo the damage that Phil Jackson has done to this team over the last year or two? Well, first they have to hire a GM. Right. That's the first order of business for them. Look, man, like some of those bad deals, Joaquin Noah, how are you going to dump that?

How are you going to get rid of that deal? I just wanted to let you know I was willing to make some Sixers cap space available for Jodo if Porzingis is part of the trade. You know, Jaliel Okifor, as the guys from Rice, Dirkies-Sanchez love to say, automatic 20 and 10. They're not lying either. Like, it's the truth.

They're not lying at all. No, I don't know how you get rid of Noah. I don't know. You have to go, whoever the next front office is, they're going to have to spend some time with Chris. and his brother, apparently. They got to figure out the Carmelo thing. Frankie smokes apparently.

Frank Tilakina came off the practice court today, walking gingerly, which is always what you want to hear about your rookie. Shout out to Tate. I know Malik Monk also hurt his ankle, right? Yeah. Ugh. So, I don't know.

I mean, is this job and working for James Dolan attractive enough to lure Messiah away from Toronto or Sam Hinky out of Palo Alto? So I think it's a little bit appealing in the sense that if Dolan gives the new GM the same freedom that he gave Phil Jackson, then it's appealing because that's what you want as a general manager. You don't want your owner telling you no on certain deals that you know damn well are going to work out for your team. Like that's what Sixers ownership provided Sam Hinkie in the early days of the process. They allowed him to go through with the tanking plan, accumulating assets, and it worked. They just ran out of patience at the end, and the NBA ran enough patience.

So look, if the Knicks, whoever they hire, whoever they bring in, if Dolan gives them some room to do what they want to do to really just go through with their plan, then great. That's an appealing job. It's one of the biggest markets in the world. So it obviously has appeal, and then you have a 21-year-old 7-3 stud, and Chris that was poor Zingis. You have a young, talented point-gone and Frankie Smokes. There's some good stuff happening there. The problem is the NOAA contract, even the Courtney Lee deal. You still have the Carmelo problem hanging over their franchise.

So I think there's some problems there, but I still think it's an appealing job. Well, I know Ramona tweeted that, Ramona Shelburne tweeted that there are some big-name college coaches already showing interest in that job. And I know many Nick fans would welcome Rick Patino back with open arms to the garden. Give me some coach Cal. I would love a little coach cow. If anybody could repair the damage with Christops, it would be coach. It would be Cal, man. Come on.

Okay, Kevin. This podcast is subject to change because, you know, the NBA is going through a revolution, not only in the way these teams are changing, but the way this information is coming out at such a fast and furious pace. So I'm sure we'll be speaking to you again in some form or another. You could find Kevin's writing on The Ringer. He wrote about the Rockets and how Chris Paul and James Harden might. work together today. We are covering everything about NBA free agency that can possibly cover.

So come back early and often. Kevin, thank you for joining me today. Thank you for having me, Chris. Hopefully we get some more big trades. Later, man. And finally, the Prince Who was promised. Jason Concepcion. I appreciate that reference.

I know what that is. I recognize that. Yeah, it's a breaking bad thing. Jason's here to talk about Phil Jackson. Philly. You called him a special kind of stupid. The worst kind of stupid on the world of today. Yeah, I mean, you know, Phil is a well-read guy.

He's studied different cultures. He's been influenced by Eastern philosophies and Western literature. And he's really, the course that he's set for himself is one that he has taken after much consideration and reasoning. And it is bad. objectively and there and no one will be able to talk him out of it he wants to he wants to he wants to voice the triangle upon players who don't want to play it and he will not listen to reason and this has happened yeah it turns out all you needed was one e minor chord from the jd in the straight shot yeah i i i 100 percent i mean there is some like is this the most you've ever liked

james don't know i mean like listen this is just like this is just like this is just like this This is a momentary sugar high in the long life of being a Knicks fan. And I know that within hours, within days, Dolan will do something bad now that he's been stirred from his, you know, fucking blues tour. I really think that this was, you know, like Phil would still be with us, if not for the fact that Charlotte Wilder of SB Nation went to his freaking gig and reported on it. Like, that's, he's like, Phil, they came to my gig. So he feels harassed? So he feels harassed? He feels harassed.

Yeah, I think I really, because like, it was not that long ago that, that Dolan was like, oh yeah, we're honoring, we're honoring the deal. I made a deal with this guy. Five years, that's it. And he was like really trumpeting how he was staying out of the basketball stuff. I ask Phil about it. Yeah, I think, and I think he really enjoyed the fact that Phil not only had the reputation that he once did, that he still does,

I think, you know, Phil's reputation, I think we'll survive after this fades out. But I think he really appreciated the fact that Phil was the kind of guy who could just take all the slings and arrows and Donald could be like, hey, man, I'm just like playing the blues. It doesn't have anything to do with me.

And this is a song I wrote about Trayvon Martin. One, two, three. So there was a Woj report, and in the top of that piece, is this idea of fitness. And it's not necessarily clear about like but there were reports that Phil was like falling asleep. He's a 71 year old man.

Yeah, for all. For sure. I think that questions about his quote unquote fitness, which is an extremely like loaded word, which I think we all know what it means when a person is 70 and is like taken by their own, you know, at their own. They've admitted to taking like hallucinogenic drugs for how X amount of years over their life and have apparently lost their fastball. in a way that is concerning.

I think it's like, you know, that's a term that is loaded in a very weird way. Just like shunting that aside, you can just look at what he's done. Yeah. And he can't, he's bad. Leaving aside whether he's, quote, unquote, fit for the job, he can't do the job. Whatever the underlying factors are, he's just not good. He's not good. I'm going to give you a series of scenarios that I just want you to give me a one out of 10,

10 being I'm moving back to New York, one being like, what's New York? Sure. Steve Mills just runs his team for the foreseeable future. It's a five. I mean, like, you know, Mills has said things that in the media that I have broadly found to be amenable to modern basketball. I wouldn't be shocked if Mills was bad, and I would be pleasantly surprised if Mills was pretty good slash a cautious GM. Okay. Masai.

I would love that. That would be great. Especially because Mark Berman of the Post wrote that now famous tweet amongst Nick's Nation, Take that Maasai in reference to something

Andrea Barney did that was good that now I can't even He had like 11 points on like three for 11 one time. David Griffin. That would be awesome. And the thing about David Griffin is he's shown that

he can deal with it. chaotic situation he can deal with a chaotic situation he can deal with an owner that's overbearing and he can make moves in a constrained atmosphere um that involves a lot of money and and timing and moving shunting around of contracts which is uh historically the kind of position that the nicks have found themselves in again and again so yeah that would be freaking awesome it was david griff that would be my preference Sam Hinky. I would also love Sam, and here's the thing about Sam. Sam is like a 10, as is David Griffin.

Sam is like at a 15 just because of the fireworks. Sam is like you'll become an MTA conductor. Yeah, and like, yeah, and as the train is burning, I'll just be screaming like, the process. The thing about Sam Hinky is it is unclear whether Adam Silverware ever let this guy have a job in the league again. Like, I mean, you know. Oh, no way. His stock is high now.

I just feel like, sure, I just feel like there would have to be some kind of like unspoken arrangement where... I don't think that his process, the way that he did things in Philly would not work in New York. Yeah, there's no, like... You can't survive two tabloids when losing it like that. The NBA would not allow the team in its largest market to actively tank for multiple seasons in a way that is absolutely shameless. You can't not have Thanksgiving game days. They can't, they would,

Christmas Day games. It would not be allowed to happen. So how would it work? I mean, I think Hinky, I would love to see Hinky there just because, you know, I would love to see it. Okay, I guess the question is now, do you think Mello's playing for the Knicks next year?

No, I don't think so. You think he, you know, the ultimate. Bill seems convinced that there's no reason to offer him a buyout. They shouldn't offer him a buyout because that's, just dumb. But like the ultimate mellow swagger move would be to like now come to the Knicks and be like either say, I wave my no trade.

I wave my no trade. Or be like, hey, I'm ready to play. That would be the ultimate. There will be blood bowling ball drop. Right. Or like, or come to them and be like, hey, I'm ready to play the four now and I'll stand on the perimeter and let's just put the ball in porzicis his hands. You know, like Melos, this is Mello's championship.

Like dunking on Phil. Yeah. Dunking on Phil and Lala calling off the separation is like Mello winning back-to-back titles. I'm proud of him. He's like a folk hero now. Yeah, he's a New York hero. All right, like Lou Reed before him. Let's end it there.

Jason, thanks for joining us. Thank you. That's the Ringer NBA show. We had a nutty day. We'll be back soon.