The Ringer NBA Show - The Dark-Horse MVP Race, Mathurin’s Moment, and More Takeaways About Actual Basketball | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

Justin is back with Rob and J. Kyle Mann, and they take a look at the MVP race because the front-runners are up against the 65-game limit. They talk about whether the game limit is here to stay, some other candidates for MVP, and more. Then they talk about some of their takeaways from the first couple of games after the All-Star break, including Bennedict Mathurin’s impressive start with the Clippers and Cam Thomas and the resurgent Bucks. (00:00) Intro (2:01) The MVP race (31:02) FanDuel ad break (34:38) Cavs (45:09) Pistons (49:44) Who is the best American player in the league? (54:44) Bennedict Mathurin (1:08:04:04) Cam Thomas Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Victoria Valencia and Isaiah Blakely Production Supervision: Ben Cruz and Conor Nevins Social: Isaiah Blakely and Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to GroupShat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. Sorry I missed last week's riveting episode. I'll be honest. I looked at the title when you guys published. I was like, are these dudes tanking? Have they joined the tank race as well? Like, what's going on here?

Look, what's wrong with reviewing a little recent history? Do you have some editorial guidance for us? An interesting timing, you know, right after the devil's. line, middle of the season. But, you know, we make do. Look, the content never stops. We had to go to work that day. Some of us, you know, we're trying to put in it on a day.

That was the natural pivot, Rob, is to turn the knife right back on Justin for that. And it was a quick pivot in our defense also. And we did our best. And we're retrospective, introspective people, unlike you, Justin, who just plows forward with no remorse and no character development. How did you guys feel? Was it just like? 33.3% less hilarious than usual.

Oh, we were lost in the woods. To be very clear about what was happening, I felt like our compass was pointing in every possible direction. We were just walking in circles, Blair Witch style out in the wilderness. And it's a miracle we got through it alive. When I have no one to bully, I do tend to be aimless for a little bit. I've noticed that about myself. So, yeah, I'm glad to have you back for that reason.

I can't wait to be a punching bag yet again. just fill my normal position here. All right. So today, our compass is pointing toward actual NBA basketball. Believe it or not, basketball is back. And we're going to talk about the past four or so days of games post All Star break, kind of the big old takeaways from that. I think first and foremost, we need to start with the MVP race, which is, I guess, heating up in certain directions,

but also cooling down for certain players who might not actually qualify for the award. So as we're recording this Monday morning, P.T. February 23rd, we are looking at Nicola Yokic with only one game left before he is deemed ineligible. He's missed 16 games. You can only miss 17. SGA has missed 9. Wembe has missed 14. Even Luca has missed 12. And so we could be barreling toward a race, Rob, where all of the top candidates, I would say at least the top two. We could talk about the top three, just might not be eligible for this award. Yeah, and Shea is still very much dependent on how his abdominal strain reacts over time. I think we're still at least like maybe a weekish out from him being reevaluated.

Hopefully he'll be back before the threshold. But not only are those guys out, but like Janus is also clearly out at this point. Kauai Leonard is on the verge of getting disqualified if he's even eligible for this. And so we're getting into like a secondary MVP race very quickly between Shea, assuming he's going to be healthy enough to qualify, Yokic. I would guess we'll miss at least one game the rest of the way, but crazier things have happened. And then you're getting into what, Kate Cunningham, Anthony Edwards,

Jalen Brunson, Jalen Brown kind of territory. Is there anyone else that kind of jumps off the page for you guys in terms of who could suddenly be a candidate? Yeah, Donovan Mitchell for sure. Yeah. I was going to say, are we going to reach a point where we do almost like a reverse tanking thing where we just bring guys out for a quick appearance, you know?

in a game just so that they can make, are there rules around that part of it? Is there a minute stipulation to technically qualify for a game appearance? There are, because remember Dante DiVincenzo ran into this because there were a couple games where he didn't play enough to technically qualify for, I think it was either six-man or most improved that he was contending for that season.

And so I think it has to be over, I want to say like a 10 or 15-minute threshold, if I remember it correctly. But also these rules are fake and meaningless, and I don't know why we're like so beholden to them, but here we are trying to figure out how to give Cade Cunningham the MVP. Well, I worry that what's going to end up happening is a lot of these guys are going to push through it in order to be eligible. Like you said, Yokic only has the one game left. He's already playing back to backs. He didn't pace himself back post injury. He's just

really doing everything out there. And as you've seen in recent Nuggets games, they need him to be playing pretty often. And so I do wonder if he will just power through, if Shea will arrive back with enough time in order to be eligible, but then it just screws up the rest of the regular season into the playoffs where it's like, oh no, Shea has another tweak of his injury and all of a sudden he's going to miss three games. And so I think it's already a worst case scenario

where we could be affixing an asterisk whoever wins this award in like an actual sense before we've talked about like, oh, this happened and this happened. We need to do it because of the bubble, all these bullshit reasons. This will actually be probably an asterisk MVP, which is something we could talk about.

But I also think it like could ruin, the playoffs in a way that could be catastrophic. Okay, walk us through that. What do you see as the playoff implication here? Well, just if these guys get hurt again because they come back too early in order to be eligible for this award, just to hit the benchmark of

65 as if we couldn't decipher between 63 and 64 games for some of these guys. I think Yokic is the one to watch there, oddly enough, because you're right, Justin, that they have needed him desperately to gut out what should be easier games than they are. and yet you need like a 35 and 20 effort from Yokic to get done what you need to get done.

And even in doing so, for a guy who's putting up 35 and 20, it is like so clear that he's not 100%. Like he will have possessions where it's like just not moving quickly or responding quickly enough. He's had some like rash turnover games that were just very out of character for him. And frankly, he's had more of those this year overall than you would expect. Just games where all of a sudden he'll end up with 6, 7, 8 turnover. on the night for matchups that should be a little easier for him.

And so I don't know what to make of him and kind of what the nuggets need from him at this point because he is that essential. He also needs to get some rest at this point. He's also probably pushed back too hard, too fast already. And so the MVP is not precious enough that the Denver Nuggets should be punting on their season just to make sure that Nicola Yokic is eligible for it,

even if he could be. So I think he is due for a rest at some point. Shea is the one that I think they will be able to kind of pick and choose their spots probably a little bit better as far as what is proactive versus what is necessary versus what is, you know, honestly rewarding someone who would be a great, you know, back-to-back MVP and a deserving back-to-back MVP for that particular honor. Yeah, Yokic, you know, traditionally a drop and soft show defender when it comes to like pick and roll ball screen situations, whatever it might be.

For someone like him to have a hyper-extended knee, you're coming back from the conditioning, you're coming back. There's tenderness there. You know, if you come back a little bit too quick, it's just easier to get overextended, winded, out of position in his situation. And then you figure in what he's carrying on the other side. But then in the broader sense, with this whole, you know, landscape of the MVP thing, I just find myself, it's kind of amusing to me just because basketball has just kind of become a game that's like at war with itself in some ways, where the individualism drives it. But then, you know, these individual, awards, the incentives that are literal cash incentives to win.

And then you get in these situations where, like Justin said, it's kind of compromising the team stasis and putting us in these odd situations. And then the other thing, too, you all are talking about, I find myself getting really, really annoyed imagining years from now, the qualifiers in the conversations that we're going to be having about legacy, as we love to do, just about this MVP season. because I don't know, the 65 thing, do you think it's here to stay? Is this going to become the thing that breaks the cycle for this?

I would say if it's loud enough, if the backlash is loud enough, as we've seen with tanking, then it goes. And the one thing you could say in Adam Silver's favor is that at the very least he isn't dug in when he changes something, he's been willing to change things again and again in order to find the right answer. The All-Star game is a prime example of that. And so I imagine that happens, but I do think it comes down to how big of a black guy it is in order to force a change, which honestly is how most businesses work. They could

talk about like, oh, this doesn't fit our, like, our ethics or whatever, or morals. It's really when it affects the bottom line. It becomes too much of a PR disaster that they just can't stomach that. And that's where I think the SGA inclusion is probably the breaking point. And that's, I say that and I don't want to disrespect Cade Cunningham, who would probably be the MVP by default if Cade becomes ineligible and the other guys who are on pace to be ineligible also would be. it's really not a Kade issue or a Kade question, but he is, you know, somewhere around the eighth to 12th best player in the NBA.

And the fact that you're getting that far down the list in adjudicating what's supposed to be the ultimate individual award, that is a failure of the system. And it's certainly a failure of, you know, the schedule and everything that's leading us to this point and all of these, you know, the rash of soft tissue injuries that we've talked about all throughout the year. But I think so long as Shay is still in the race

and ultimately wins, some of the asterisk talk will fade. The uproar, like the real noise that you're talking about, JV, I think comes from the fact that if, you know, Shea and Yokic and Janus and Luca are all ineligible, the like what now shrugging that will have to happen will, you know, inspire a lot of conversation and hand-wringing about it. Well, let me ask you guys this.

So let's say Yokic and SGA are off the board. Just the top two guys, the two guys we anticipated being the top two practically most of this season. do you guys ultimately say it's Cade or like does Wembe get a good look for you? Let's start there. This is my strongest thought on the hold that I was just looking over this group of players. Are we sure that we jump to Shea? I mean, I'm not trying to downgrade Shea's account.

Like when you look at what Wemby has done, this team, I think they're like third in defensive rating, six and offensive rating. They've been on fire recently. If you want to just look at one player versus one team, his impact on. on OKC, the defending champs, as we've talked about it a lot on this show, has been dramatic. The defensive anchor thing,

I don't know, I know his offensive output isn't the exact same as Yokic, and that can kind of mess with your brain where we do the counting stat thing, and you just sort by points. We're like, hey, well, you know, that's our tendency to do that. But his overall impact,

I guess what I'm trying to ask is just, are we absolutely, are we valuing Wemby correctly in this MVP conversation? because when I was pouring over the numbers, I was like, are we not sure he's two? Shouldn't he? Is that crazy for him to be two? It's not crazy.

Yeah, like it's a reasonable conversation to have, but counterpoint Shea is the best individual score in basketball. And you're catching me at a weak moment because Kaysen Wallace has put up 20 and 10. And Wimby's the most dominant defensive anchor on the planet. And he bothers Shay's offense in a way. And I think that is a mic. microcos, like, come on. Like, I actually think this is the case, though.

Like, perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way. Like, maybe this isn't the sign of things needing to change. If anything, this makes the MVP race more interesting than it has been in years past because we do become so anchored in these top two guys because, frankly, they are the best two players in the world right now. It's pretty inarguable. But if we're just going by body of work, then it's like the door is open for a lot of these guys, especially because, as Rob was saying, like, Yokish looks pretty sluggish.

him here in Portland the other night and he definitely is moving more stiffly than he has in the past. Now, he just put up 19 in the first quarter because they let him shoot and he just shot the lights off there. So he could still do that. And so it was like the weird like, oh, he's hurt, but also still the best player in the world. He could be in a full body cast and get 16 and 12 and five assists. Right. But I just think it opens the door. Like if he is diminished over the stretch run and as much as we don't like to admit it, the final conclusion, like what you see last, I think does matter to you more. I think it's just like a psychological effect where you just glom on to the more recency bias. I do think it would probably sour his case to the point where, like, people would

consider other guys even if he was eligible. I think that's totally true and deserving. And you're right about the psychology of kind of what we're seeing late in the season. I think as far as like Wemby's place in that conversation, I'm absolutely down to have the debate. I think we will have it if both those guys continue to be eligible. And we should say Wemby's already missed 14 games. So he's a borderline candidate at this point himself. What I want, though, is there to be the debate. Because if Wembe wins, because he hangs on, but Shea doesn't qualify, that is a boring

outcome. Like, I want whatever Wembe's first, like, breakout awards push to be, to be one where he's resting it away from guys like Yokic and Shea. And so long as there's a conversation to be had, I think that's great. That's just not how, like, the world works. You not watch Game of Thrones? It just doesn't happen the way it's supposed to. This isn't fantasy land, buddy.

Well, I'm fine if it takes some, like, you know, backroom machinations and executions to get there. But you got to lop off somebody's head in order to take the throne. That's ultimately my point. It was a better story because the Starks suffered. All right? We can agree on that. I wanted them to win, but they had to suffer.

And what's more important than a great story? You know, this is true. How much of the case for both of those top two guys, though? is a fix to the team result where it seemed like the Thunder were just going to run away with this. And we thought they would be in historic territory in terms of their record. Well, now like the Thunder are not only neck and neck with the pistons for the top record, but the Spurs slowly but surely getting into that conversation. They just passed the Phil Jackson rule the other day where they won 40 games before they lost 20.

And like probably the hottest team in the NBA. I don't see them slowing down over the next couple games as well. And so, like, maybe Wembe misses it, frankly, because of all the injuries and whatnot. But they are kind of built in order to sustain over the second half because they have so many live young bodies. If anything, like, I have more faith in them having a nice finishing kick than I do even the Pistons who feel like just last night, Derns dropping the ball on Nick Richards. And I thought another fight was going to spring out, though. So, like, the Spurs, like, they have a good shot here. And Wembe has a good shot as a result.

I'm kind of stunned that we're here with the Spurs. I know we've been talking about them and around them all season, trying to understand how seriously they should be playing into the title, you know, our title pie, but also our broader understanding of who is actually contending this year. They're just like flat out top five on both sides of the ball with all that youth, with every caveat, with every concern you may have about their execution

or the construction of their team. Like, I don't care if you won more out of Harrison Barnes. Like, they're good right now and they're dominant and effective right now. And so the fact that, that it is turning into kind of a team case for all three of these prime candidates. And I want to include Cade in that as well because he has in many ways the most compelling team case, right? Like not as quite as glitzy and individual candidacy by the numbers, at least if, like, you are kind

of prioritizing efficiency, especially relative to Shay. The efficiency police is out for Cade and also Jalen Brown. I've already seen the cases like, they don't have the effective field goal. Shut up. They're good. Yes. Yeah. You want the efficiency there, but the other hat that has to be there.

I think if you're going to be the MVP archetype, if there was one, if there were one, is you need to be a floor razor. And either that means you're a force multiplier on offense, like a Yokic or, you know, Shea's really evolved in that sense. Kay does check that box. I know we can dive into him, but in terms of his ability to just manufacture easy baskets through his threat to score, he has gotten better in a lot of different ways. I was studying some more specific aspects of it this morning. But to me, I think that's, you have to check one of those boxes. Jalen, it's harder for the defensive side of it. Listen to me, like, you know, historical guy who never guarded anybody.

I'm an offense guy. I love scoring. I love studying, scoring. It's my favorite. I'm going to defend the defensive thing pretty fervently here. It's just, I think for Jalen and for Kate, I think this is also true. It's harder for them to be two-way impact guys and sort of leap over some of these offensive anchors because

they're not going to dictate what the other team does necessarily in the same way that a defensive anchor would like Wimby. Am I making sense on that front? I just think for the guys that have a two-way case, I just don't think that they can make as much of a case as Wemby. An individual perimeter defender

is not going to have the same sort of effect on someone who could warp an entire offense with his defense. But I just think Cade's playmaking gets kind of overlooked here. We're talking about a guy who's almost single-handedly orchestrating everything the pistons are doing. And you look at the components that he's having there. It's just like it's a lot of just spot-up shooters. Even Jalen Duren is still pretty plug-in-play is just like a burly role man. I know he's got

a lot of ceiling there in order to tap into. And so like the efficiency stuff just doesn't bother me with him when you're driving the results of everything offensively for one of the best teams in the league. And so it sounds like we're kind of like circling, Kyle, you would probably lean Wembe if the top two guys aren't. Is that sound right? Yeah. Wimby's at the same games played as Yokic at 42. So it's like there.

But we talk about Yokets being on the edge of a knife here. But, you know, Wimby's right in the same boat. So but Wimby's history, I guess you just kind of lean towards the likelihood of missing games. It's pretty, it's pretty likely at this point. But yeah, Wimby's dominance over like Caden, those other guys. I really appreciate what Kaden and Jalen have done, even reaching down. I mean, we even mentioned Luca D' Don'tchich in this conversation. Don't do it.

I can't. I cannot anymore. I mean, you can. You can and should. I look at the body of work and it's just stupid. Like, he's averaging almost 33 points a game. He's almost 11 free throws. You watch a game.

It's unbelievably annoying to watch him at any point in this season. So if I had an actual ballot, I wouldn't vote for him just because he's crying, just diverts like double-digit possessions on a given basis. He's come on. Look, look at a teammate. I've been a. like an appreciator from the front row. I was making fun of myself for myth-making on a past episode.

Like, I appreciate Lucas' talent. Luca doesn't play games. He litigates games. You are like, it's tedious. He's like, I'm going to drag you into the mud, and I know every clause and every statute. Like, he's like, and he just argues, argues, argues, argues, and you're just like, for the love of God,

Luca, just play basketball. Like, holy moly. I would like him to argue less. Also, I don't really care that much to the point where it's going to weigh into a conversation like this. Like, if you want to talk about the ways in which is arguing trades off for transition defense, like, that's a real thing, right? That's like a, that is something you need to talk about

in terms of the broader understanding of what Luca does and doesn't do. He still creates literally everything for that team. And has had to do it in so many combinations with so many lackluster lineups. That if, like, if you're not talking about Luca as an MVP candidate, I feel like you're really missing the boat on not just like individual value, but like, what are we rewarded? if not the kind of performance that Luca is bringing to the table. What a frown, Justin just did.

That's the thumbnail. Isaiah, if you don't thumbnail that frown, that. I don't do yachts. I don't do cruises. Like, just no boats for me in general. This is why you're out there on like the Titanic-style door just floating in the middle of the ocean. Like, we're trying to get somewhere.

I'm willing to freeze, baby. I think his raw numbers just blow your wig back. And it doesn't account for the possessions that he's punting by being a crybaby on the court complaining to the refs while the action is going the other way. Like if he scores 35 points a game but gives up 10 on the other end and we're not even factoring what he just gives up defensively just by like not even trying and dying on screens all the time.

Like for an enterprising young lad out there with with the calculator and all the advanced stats, like start tracking the amount of points that Luca punts by bitching. And I do think it would be just as like stark. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus. I like that. The scatter plot of the bitch points.

And you would see, like, it would probably shock you how much she actually is just giving away free points. I think that is absolutely true. It would be a startling number to see. I also think if you do want to ascribe 10 bitch punts to Luca Donchage per game. I'm just kidding. Second spectrum, bitchpunts, man. That's got it. We can track that.

I know we can. I think we can and we should. even if you want to like, you know, demerit those from his resume, he's still one of the most productive players in the league. He's still wildly effective to the point that... I have a philosophical question. I'm going to interrupt you, Rob. I'm sorry to do this. We know that he has to do this for the Lakers. Like, he could cede a little bit to Austin Reeves, whatever it is. Is Luca willing to play any other way? Like, is he always going to be implied in the MVP consideration? And does he create this hazy line where we have to go?

go in every single time and decide, like, does he always deserve to be the MVP consideration just because of the rigid way that he plays? Do you have to weigh that at all? Do you see what I'm saying? Because even on a bad team, he's going to put up these crazy numbers. Right. And I also think, like, if we're talking about the margin of error for each specific team, you would argue that, like, he needs those extra 10 points more than anyone because the defense is so suspect in Lakerland that like they need every bit of help in order to be in these games. And so I think if you're thinking from a broad aspect, as we're talking about like team success and how much it might drive who he ended up giving the MVP award to, Luca's not an ability

to not understand the situation emotionally. He does just in terms of his raw play because doing more is incumbent upon him because of the lack of talent he has outside of Reeves and LeBron. But like, if you just shut up and like you would be better off for it and you can't bring yourself to do that? I just don't see how that's most valuable. If anything, it's most selfish. How about that?

Most selfish. Wow. I mean, you're really on one today. I'm back, baby. He's leading the league in scoring on a near triple double every night for a team that's going to win like almost 50, if not 50 games. I'm sorry, that's good enough. I don't know what else to tell you.

It is. It is good. He's good. No one's arguing that Luke is good. I think he just sucks to play with. that's the sort of quiet killer. I think that kind of undercuts a lot of teams. And frankly, that's the difference between a very good player and an MVP in my mind.

I think every star requires certain skill sets, personality types, whatever it is, to play alongside them and really thrive. We've seen players go into Golden State and they just cannot fathom the motion of that offense to actually work alongside Steph. They're just like completely lost in it. That's not like a Steph issue,

but that is Steph's style of play contributing to these other guys not being as effective. We've seen examples of guys who go to play with Nicole Yokic and don't quite work out. I think Shea might be one of these few guys who, because he's so laid back temperamentally and because so much of what he does at his best is not in a vacuum, but can be created in a vacuum. He might be the easiest start to play with in the league across the board. For every player type, no matter what you do, anyone can kind of play with Shea. Who can't play with Shea?

Do you believe that? I mean, you think playing with Shea is easier than playing with Yokey? Easier for sure. I don't know. I don't know if that's true. I think if you put... Go ahead. No, I think playing with Yokic requires

a different kind of movement and philosophy and situational awareness. A lot of the guys who can be really successful playing with Shea can be as simple as like, go park in the corner. And that guy can play off of Yokic too, but not to the same effect as like Aaron Gordon's cutting

or Jamal Murray's kind of like Bob and Weave like handoff game. I think with Shea, he does a couple of things really crucially that absolutely factor into this MVP conversation, but also make him just really affect him more broadly. One, when he's on the floor, your team just like does not turn the ball over because he doesn't. He controls a lot of it and he puts you in positions to succeed as a role player where you're not being asked to do too much typically. And so if that's kind of the floor,

is like he's putting up incredible production, your team as a whole is not turning the ball over. And what you're asked to do is like more expansive than Luca kind of spoon feeding you points, but less demanding than some of the offball movement or kind of intricate choreography that goes on with some of these other stars. I think there's a sweet spot there that most NBA players fall into. That's a good argument.

I just think if you think about, I would throw Halliburton in there as one of the easiest superstars to play with. I don't think that Yokic is going to compress for as phenomenal as, you know, he's an incredible score in all these different ways. You know, he can attack single coverage. You can hit open show.

dots. He creates cutting offense. It's like, okay, boo-hoo. He asked for you to, like, play off the ball and not play a me-centric style of play. I just think, and God and all the, like, the benefit of the doubt, like devil's advocate here. Like, I know I'm probably going to get some notes for this, but like, I've made it sound like I don't like Shade Luke Dodgers. I really like both of them. I just think when you're talking about that top three percent, it's, it does deserve, the hairs deserve to be split. I just, I think, I still think, I still think, Yokch is the easiest to play with because if you brought in a superstar, like Jamal Murray is enabled in the easy baskets that Yokic creates for him. But Jamal Murray is also enabled to just play pick and roll and play isolation or play whatever he wants to do because Yokic is just like, you deserve that. If you had a star that came in that deserved to expand and fill the space with the things that they do well, MPJ couldn't do that. He didn't deserve to do that.

And he's great. We've seen Yokits will allow you to do that though, like if you deserve it, you know. I feel like Yokic is just like rolling out the finger paints and just letting guys be who they want to be. Like just like have free time and just like explore your creativity. Whereas like Shea does require a little bit more rigidity in who's around him. And to that point, like a lot of the guys that he play around him just happened to be like very streamlined three and D guys. Even Jalen Williams are, yeah, J-dub is just like kind of doing it in tandem to Shea rather than like being propelled by Shea's own playmaking. Like, Yokic just kind of just brings out, like Aaron Gordon's just all of a sudden a completely different player than he was when he started in Denver.

And I have to imagine a lot of that just because of the opportunities by Yokic. But wait, hold on. Let's circle back because Kyle said he was probably Wemby, if not the top two guys. Rob, do you lean a certain direction amongst these others? I would lean Wembe as well. I'm just kind of operating under the assumption that he's probably not going to make the threshold. You know, at some point now, between the end of the season, he'll probably miss three more games. and then it's, you know, we're on to the next guy down the line.

But if Shea is eligible, Shea right now would be my pick as well. But what if those three guys aren't there? So we're just moving on down. Well, this is probably the exercise, right? Yeah. Like if those three guys, as we assume, don't make it, which right now they're on track not to,

who's your guy? I think at that point it is a Cade versus Luca conversation for me. And the team case for Cade might be strong enough to kind of over. overcome that. I agree. I would actually put Jalen above Luca in that case. I also wonder if Kauai is eligible. We even talked about Kauai. Quai is a fucking killer right now. He openly admitted that the Klipper's season is basically over, which was fucking hilarious because they're going to make the play. And it's not like they're just like trying to scrounge together tanking wins in order

to get a higher draft pick. Like they are still very much going to play postseason basketball. It's like, No, just fuck it. But then he goes out and scores 37 last night against the magic and is often, if not always, the best player on the court. He's had an absolute blistering second half. If we're just going by like January 1st on, probably the best player in the league. Yeah. Has probably had the best resume since the first, which I know it's a full season, but God damn,

he's been so good. I have no argument against it. I really think the only weight on Kauai's case at this point is not even really those, you know, the first month or so of the season, it's just going to be that the Clippers are nowhere near as good as these other teams. And while it is an individual award, there just is something a little nasty

about like, we're going to reward the team with like the ninth or tenth, the best record in the West when Shea could be sitting right there. Cade could be sitting right there. Jalen Brown, as you said,

could be sitting right there. And that's assuming that Wembe isn't eligible. It's just, it gets tougher and tougher every year to not even make like the Russell Westbrook-esque, like, this team is in sixth place case, but like, can we vote MVP from a 10th place team? Do we have that in us, like, collectively?

I honestly don't know. Is Russ the worst record MVP? I don't, I should feel like I should know that. They were a four seed, right? I think they were lower than that. Oh, God. Maybe six. That was rough.

Or maybe it was the year that hardened one. But like, again, some of the Russ OKC teams were just kind of exceptional fringe cases that we were trying to parse in real time. But similar case, though. Triple double cocaine bear? Come on. man. Just like a similar MVP race, though, where there wasn't like a clear-cut dominant guy that we could point to and all of a sudden everyone was voting in one direction. It was real like I have the

beholder to the point where I remember everyone just really digging deep in the crates for those advanced stats in order to make the case for Kauai. I mean, if we don't get the top guys, I think this is going to be the same sort of knife fight where it's like, well, where do your preferences lie here? What do you value most? And I do think like these, I think we're kind of discrediting Jalen's case. and this as well. Let's say all of a sudden Tatum comes back, which at this point, I assumed he would have been back by now considering the way people were talking about it, but

it seems like everything keeps being pushed back further and further. We'll see. But if like he comes back and gives them enough, especially defensively in order to help the record and all of a sudden the Pistons record looks similar to the Celtics, I think then it'd be impossible to choose between Cade and Jalen at that point.

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So we're looking at the futures bets on Fandle in the NBA section. We talked about the MVP on this pod. I kind of like Victor Webbenyama, who's fourth in MVP odds right now, plus 2,500. It seems pretty steep for someone who I think might win. even over a Cade Cunningham, even over a Jalen Brown, if Yokic and Shea Gildress Alexander both don't qualify for the 65 game rule. So give me Wemby plus 2,500. Cade, also a good shot at plus 650, but I like those odds for Wembe. And when you bet on Fandul, just visit fandul.com slash ringer NBA. Play your game with Fandul official sports betting partner of the NBA.

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The Russ season 2017, the Thunder were the sixth seed that year. Somehow, though, not the worst season for a reigning MVP. There were two seasons worse. One, Bob Pettit. Shout out to Bob Pettit. The one that's surprising to me, that was a Kareem MVP season with the Lakers in 76, in which the Lakers were a sub-500 team.

But Kareem is Kareem. So I guess sometimes that's just the way it goes. Is there anyone else you guys want to talk about here? I had Donovan Mitchell down. I guess you could talk in Edwards. Yeah. Any other like dark-dark ones? You said digging the crates, Justin.

Do you think, you got me thinking, do you think that since we've lost that we don't, we're out of the like physical media era, the people who were snobs about digging in crates for vinyl, have they transitioned over to basketball and just become stat nerds? Do you think? Like if we had an, a cultural allocation,

I just, you got my wheel spin in there for a second. So those dorks, those like insufferable dorks, you know, who were in high fidelity, like Rob, you know, those types of dorks. Other Rob, I assume you're talking about. Right. This is just turning into an LCD, sound system song is happening all in front of us.

I feel like the digging in some crates guys in sports terms are the people who are creating Twitter accounts right now of like remembering random college basketball players via their highlight clips. Like that is the digging. There's an Instagram account that just digs up old TRL

like one through 10 and it just goes through them all. I would just live in that environment if it was just playing all around me like had my eyes like press open like that. That's how I want to go out. There's a dude who posts sports center segments of college basketball,

and I watch them almost every single time. They're like Georgetown 71, Yukon, 63. And it's just Craig Kilbourne rattling off the stats. Derailment. Okay. The question that you asked before that, though, it was a good one. I don't even remember. It's been like 12 minutes to this point.

I think we were talking about the other candidates. I think we've covered basically every reasonable option of the board. I guess Kevin Durant technically would be available in an option, but like I don't know how he would win over. some of the other names you've already mentioned. I think the only other other that deserves mentioning is probably Mitchell, if only because the Cavs might go on a little bit of a run here. I think like he has a certain case,

probably the best individual season he's had thus far. I do worry in terms of like his story to tell at this point, which is a big part of this, whether you want to accept it or not, Harden coming in and then propelling them and cleaning things up for them, I do think is probably going to muddle his case as the most valuable player in the world. Curious overall, though,

like, what do you guys think there? Because I also think, like, the Cavs, if you want to talk about the Cavs real quick, like, there's some stuff to figure out here. And I think that Thunder game was a prime example of that. For sure. I mean, I think Donovan Mitchell has been

fucking awesome this season. And that got a little lost in the shuffle when the Cavs overall were still trying to find themselves where their defense wasn't holding up on this night or that, where their offensive flow wasn't where we're used to it being. But he has been routinely and consistently, and consistently, the best thing going for that team.

and measured up every step of the way to your Jalen Brunson's and your Tyree Smacks season. Frankly, even your Cade Cunningham's in terms of the sort of individual season they've been having. I'm totally with you, though, Javy,

in terms of the storytelling aspect of award voting. And I kind of wonder if James Hardin might have the more compelling story as an end of season award, not that he's going to be in the MVP race, but I think Hardin could join that weird fringe group of players who don't make All-Star, but do make all NBA.

Like, he could end up, like on a third team all of a sudden, and it would totally track because he has been productive enough. He was good enough for the Clippers. And now all of a sudden, if he joins his team and they've just been, I mean, routinely waxing people until they ran up against the thunder. And I do want to kind of dig into that a little bit too,

as you mentioned, Justin. But Hardin is making like a transformative impact in a way that, yeah, I don't think the Donovan Mitchell MVP talk is going to be as louder as boisterous as it otherwise might have been. I feel like we were doing batting practice. and Rob just like was throwing fastballs and then he just put some spin on it.

I was like, oh, okay, hard. Whoa. I think the Mitchell thing is interesting because Harden joining the team, I think it's sort of tracing this thing with Mitchell's ideal peak archetype, which is, is he the best player on a team that wins a title?

It's like he's very, very good. I just feel like that is, you're kind of drawing the line where he butts up against, is what he probably is at his, peak, which is probably he is in tandem with another guy like a Hardin, who is an MVP level player, as we've seen. And he comes and joins his team. So we're seeing kind of play out in real time of what Mitchell's peak is. Is that unfair to Mitchell, do you think? No, I don't think so.

I think that's completely accurate. I mean, as we've seen time and time again, like it seemed like Mitchell is at his best when there really aren't any other options and he kind of digs things out of the mud for a team, but ultimately, I don't know if it's enough to spur a team to the type of results that you want in order to compete at the highest level. I think last year's postseason is a prime example of that. The Cavs overall, though, we should talk about because they've had a pretty fascinating, just a couple of games with Harden already. The Thunder game was fascinating because on the one hand, I thought it showed a lot of heart in a way that they probably didn't have earlier in the season to come back after getting absolutely slugged in the face from

that first quarter from the Thunder, but then just like slowly bringing it back. Like, I don't think an earlier version of the Cavs would have done that. It clearly seems like they have an emotional zest that they didn't have before, let's say. Having said that, I just, at a certain point, do we need to just like completely just deal with this front court all of a sudden? Because it just feels like either Allen is optimized with Hardin because they have such a synergy. Hardin is so good at just like bringing out the best of a traditional role man big.

And Alan was playing so well. But all of a sudden, Evan Mobley comes back in and just feels like they're stepping on each other, a little bit more than they should. And I do wonder if, like, this is really the breaking point for a conversation I think we've been having already and expected to probably have a conclusion to, like, even this season already. Yeah, I think they pretty clearly don't have alternatives to do that right now.

Like, you can't just diminish an Evan Mobley's role and have... Just wave Evan Mobley. Or even just, like, you know, have Dean Wade pick up the slack. Like, that's just not a very viable option, even though Dean Wade is now, like, in part the start. small forward of this team. It seems like Kenny Atkinson is trying to play around with those ideas of like who

who fits with both these two guards, which is now like a James Harden alignment and these two bigs and fills that sweet spot in between them most naturally. And I think Mobley is a huge reason why that is challenging sometimes. And specifically the Mobley Allen tandem, which I want to give it time because Mobley and Hardin have played like I think literally

nine minutes together to this point just with Mobley ducking in and out of the lineup over the last couple games. So we'll see how it goes and the thunder are naturally going to be the place where that looks the worst just because of everything they put on you defensively. Like if you don't have a lot of guys on the floor who are making quick, instant creative decisions and are aggressive with the ball, the thunder are just going to eat you alive. And so a lineup that's like a little big and a little blundering and still trying to feel out these new synergies with Hardin, not ideal for running up against the thunder.

And I thought not only did they show some of that life that you mentioned JV and just like responding to what they encountered in the first half of that game. But flipping Dean Wade for Sam Merrill in the second half as the starting three, I thought opened some things up for them offensively and made them like a little better suited to combat exactly what OKC is doing. And that might be kind of what it is for the Cavs the rest of the way. Like a revolving door of Dean Wade makes sense here at the three because we can get away with not having as much offensively.

But we really need Sam Merrill on this night. But maybe we really need Keon Ellis in these other matchups. where like we need someone to chase around a guard and he's going to have to play some minutes at the three. There are no easy answers, but I think Hardin sort of changes the dynamics of what you want at a lot of those spots. The defensive thing that you mentioned there at the end with Ellis

is one of the things that fascinates me when I look at the playoff picture for this, for the East, and you look at a Cade and you look at a Jalen Brown who look like the kind of predominant primary, you know, perimeter creators since Tatum is out, since Halliburton is out. Well, even Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxie, you need somebody to actually be an antidote for those scores.

Yeah, and they're the team that, you know, when you look, it's like it felt like they had the fewest answers for those bigger guards, is more what I mean. I see what you're saying. The K, because, and now, you know, but the calves are in an interesting situation where you would think that by adding hard and having that synergy with Jared Allen and having it, that they would have some real flexibility to kind of stagger their lineups

and have like this core thing, like, you know, Playmaker big. Granted, their bigs aren't super versatile. You just wish that you could kind of play them together in a way because they're both, you know, Mowgli has shown signs that he might become a spacing big. It's just, it's created this odd sort of dissonance that hasn't really, I don't know, is it going to, is it going to, how much of a problem? Because like, Tomlin's another guy that has kind of emerged. I'm just, you really need a shooting four to kind of unlock this. And it's like, it's unclear which way that's going to go. I mean, look across the aisle there with the thunder. It just feels like the thunder have really struck the balance of Hartnstein being the one delivering the blow.

And then Holmgren kind of doing more of the finesse stuff on top of that, the stretch, the just the mobility defensively in order to pick that up. That really should be the template for what the calves could be. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem like they have the right mix there because Alan, I think, kind of waxes and wanes in terms of his physicality. It does feel like maybe it was the injuries early on. He had that weird thing where he had like both fingers were hurt in the same way that Garland had both. both toes and you can never tell which one. I don't know what the fuck was going on in Cleveland, but like it does feel like maybe if he's healthy enough and engaged enough and perhaps sees his minutes diminishing, like he's engaged in a way that he wasn't before. So maybe that

clarifies itself, but I just don't know about Mobley in terms of like offensively. It seems like he took a step back as he typically does before he takes a big lead forward. And so he's taking more jumpers than he ever has before this season, but he's having less success, especially three point wise than ever before then over the past couple years and so i just don't know if they have it in to find the right mix and if you're not going to do that if you're not going to like really figure out something special the best thing you could do is be big like if you're going to have two bigs you got to be big and they got pushed around a little bit on the boards last game and so maybe it's the type of thing where like at the at the very least they're desperate enough to just go with what works

like do you get into a playoff situation eva mowbly isn't playing well you just fucking pull him because that's the point that they're at with his team with Mitchell on the clock and free agency in two years. I hope that's the case, but maybe they just kind of like do it on the fly. Maybe they just like lean into their versatility and just play who's at their best. That's probably their best approach at this point.

I feel like this is a little harsh to Evan Mobley, who again is like coming off of injury into a game against the Thunder. And so it's like, yeah. Has he been good this year? I think he's been okay. Like he hasn't been a disaster, right? And he's still,

he's still more productive than your other kind of like streamlined catch and finish types of bigs. Yeah, he's not as versatile, especially if you're trying to play him at the four full time, but they need him. They need what he brings to the table defensively. They're trying to walk this very delicate line of whenever Hardens on the floor,

they're trying to figure out their defensive balance overall. And I think this is one of the areas where in the Harden era of the Cleveland Cavaliers, what are the things you can do now that the Darius Garland era didn't allow you to do? And one of those things is cross-matching, hard on threes and playing other guards, whether that's defense first or offense first

or whatever you want to prioritize and kind of reimagine your lineup that way a little bit in terms of how you want to play those minutes at the three. And so there's still a lot of time. There's still a lot of opportunity. And I think most crucially, there just aren't that many teams in the East

that are really going to press the Mobley Allen stuff that aggressively. I think the pistons are a bad matchup. And that would be a really tough one for them to run into and they might just inevitably have to deal with it. But otherwise, I don't look at the Celtics, as an unsolvable puzzle. I don't look at the Nix as like a matchup

that the Cavs couldn't handle under any circumstance. Like those are good teams and good competition, but maybe by that point, Cleveland will be there and feel comfortable juggling all of these different priorities

that they're trying to put together. Yeah. We didn't even talk about Kate's performance against the Nix the other night, by the way. Holy shit. Absolutely. Heisman moment, like,

sort of thing where it's just like, if we think the race is going to be close, I do think like standout performances like that. dude stick in your brain in ways that you don't want to admit. And that's just one of them. Like, I'm going to think about that pretty much the rest of the season because that was the type of like, this is a big game.

I showed up and just absolutely decimated one of our top competitors. That matters. It was a fuck you game. I'm just not sure who the fuck you was aimed at. Like all of us, the world, anyone who doesn't take Cater the Piston seriously. Like, it just felt so forceful. And in particular, like, OG Aninobe is trying to guard him. And it's just like not working.

Mikhail Bridge is trying to guard him. not working. That was my big from my notes on that game. They were just throwing these, this is why the Knicks went got these guys so that they could have, I imagine they probably had the Tatum Brown thing in mind, but Kate has sort of, you know, gone in here

and filled up this space with Tatum being on, but like, my goodness, man, OG was helpless. And it didn't matter. And the problem for the Knicks was, you know, Kate has gotten to the point where he's the type of player who, and he showed this promise when he was younger, granted they had all

the spatial kind of problems is if you put variables on the on the chest board that he can exploit he will find them like tactically methodically go and get them and he was just doing that with the nix like whether it was carl carl was looked silly several times jalen's too small and then you think to yourself well we just got to get ogy or we got to get mckel it's like he can bully mikhail he went by ogy he put ogy in the in the dust a couple times like on that little hesitation reject screen dribble thing that he did and i was just my My kind of thing I wanted to ask you all with the Pistons, though, you know, I was looking at and we kind of, the talking point we always circle back to is Kay carries such a load in terms of, and what is the other, you know, what's the other like mode of offense that they have that they can go to if, if there is a team in the East that can bother them. He has kind of diminished his pick and roll loads a little bit this year. But one of the one of the things that has kind of occupied that space and been really productive for the Pistons is they turn people over.

They're super, super disruptive. He's getting more transition in fast break points than he has ever at any other point in his career. If they get into a team that into a game in a series against the team that protects the ball really well, and they can load up on Kate and bother him, I've kind of been wondering if that's an area where the pistons can maybe get into a little bit of a slog. Whereas the regular season kind of serves teams like this that really generate a lot of transition. You know, I'm kind of looking at that as a pain point for the. pistons and something for them to answer. And they might answer it, but it's going to be asked.

I also think that's easier said than done against a defense that's this physical. Like, yeah, it's great if you can take care of the ball and never turn it over. But these guys are all over you, bodying you at every step. And like the fact that they set the tone for these games and then can thrive in it, right? Like if the pistons come out with their physicality and establish like this is the way this game is going to be played and officiated and what's allowed, and then Cade can put up 30 to 40 points without relying on free throws at all because he's so savvy, because he's able to get to his mid-range, because he can beat guys even like OG one-on-one, I just think that establishes

a level of dominance that other teams are going to have a really hard time contending with in the playoffs. And this is why for me, Kay just feels like he is poised for a huge playoff in this particular way. I think what you're talking about in terms of transition play for the Pistons, Kyle, I kind of first noticed from Kate in last year's postseason, where it felt like he had an understanding that the possessions are so hard to come by in this series against the Knicks. I have to gun it every time there's a transition opportunity.

And so he has, like, I think a good grasp of that like micro level aspect of things, but also when teams overload against him and they will, and frankly, they have all regular season, he's shown the ability to kind of grit through that to get quality offense, but also the willingness to do it, where he's not just passing out to the open man

who is not a very good shooter in the corner. Like, he's willing to, If it's what it's called for, he will take 10 threes tonight and he will take 35 shots tonight. And those Histons will win because they have the defense to support it. That's really kind of one of the distinguishing marks of like a guy who not only is like a superstar, but understands his superstardom is that he modulates based on what his team needs and actually can fill a void by just like modulating his own performance in order to get there. I have been thinking, though, post his press conference after that game, like,

is he the best American player in the league right now? I did feel like it was probably a backdoor bad case for his MVP case because he was basically admitting like, oh, if these guys are healthy, it's probably not me, which I think we're probably going to return to at a certain point. But it did get me thinking because it really is him or aunt at this point. I guess if you want to throw in Kauai at his peak. but the fact that he's not available enough, I mean, probably discrediting.

I'm out of this conversation. He's in it, but he's certainly in it, but we're talking about right now. Yeah, like, who's playing the best basketball right now in the world as an American? I think it's still aunt. I think I think by hair, but I think it's getting closer and closer by the day. Your modulation comment, I think, is right on.

And I think that that Knicks game was a great example of it. Like, I was charting his assist through that game. and most of them came after halftime. And that's after he had been bullying them. And that's just a basic pressure release thing that superstars need to understand.

You know, I'm going to pummel you and then you're going to overreact to it. And I'm going to punish you for that. Yeah. That's the kind of thing too, Kyle, we're over seven games. It's like even game one,

the defense is like, okay, we're going to make Kate be a score. He punches them in the mouth. They veer the other way. He all of a sudden is setting everybody up. And then what that kind of puts in your brain as a defender is like a distrust in your game plan. Right? It's like, well, we tried this. We tried that. What are we reaching for that's going to work? And I think he's one of those really balanced creators where he positions opponents to kind of fall apart if you play against him enough times in a row.

And he's smart enough and sees the floor well enough where he just puts a lot of pressure on your group psychologically to hang together and believe in what you think should work. Here's a way to think about it. So Team USA coming up again. Let's just assume all the olds that were in last year's competition. Just sit out of it. Halliburton probably not going to be available. Actually has shingles all of a sudden, which is fucking awful, which is tough for him. Have you had it? No, but I know people have had it. It's like, isn't it like tough to like touch your skin?

Kyle, you haven't had shingles? I had a girlfriend that had it, but I didn't go, yeah. Guys, this cannot be a shingles pod. Like, we wish Harry Celebrant the best, but we're not getting into shingles today. What if we did like a spoof on singles, but it was just shingles? It was just all about them navigating, having shingles. Man. Would you watch that?

Welcome back, Justin Barrier. Am I just like pitching SNL sketches? You are. Okay. Sorry. So Team USA is up. You're in a boardroom with a bunch of white guys in slacks and Grant Hill because that's how that works.

Who's your starting back court right now? So Halliburton is off the table. Let's just, yeah. assume that they're doing it right now. Your other options, just to kind of put this on the board, Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson, Jalen Brown, Tyreys Maxie, Devin Booker.

So probably the prime candidates. Your back court, I think it's Ant and Cade, right? If you had your pick of all these guys. That makes sense. It's got to be ball screen competent guys who also have relocation shooting ability. And I was going to mention when Cades

catch and shoot stuff is on. Yeah, I mean, he's in the conversation with the best players in the world. Like, you can't do anything with him. And right now, Ant and Kay together could play together in a USA backcourt. I still think, you know, I know Steph's disqualified.

I'm trying to pay homage to him. But I think that's, that hurts guys like Brunson and, you know. If we're talking about Team USA, like you simply have to mention the name, Steph Curry. So I think it's totally fair under the circumstances.

I don't care if he has to be in there on crutches. They would probably do the thing where they shoot horn like Brunson or Mitchell just to pay deference in like a three guard sort of lineup. And then they just probably stock up with Biggs. But like if you're forcing me

to make the decision, I think it's those two. Which I probably wouldn't have said even like a couple months ago. Yeah. But I think the combination of like that's almost a different criteria of like who's suited for international play. But Ant and Cade have the same thing in common, which is both hold up defensively. And Ant can

be super aggressive defensively if his role allowed. for it. He can really be like the bulldog ruining a future Tony Koo coach's life. And I think K just not being a target in the way that a Jalen Brunson would be a target or even a Tyreys Maxie would be a target. It's just a different way of life when you're talking about

international basketball. And Booker needs to be mentioned too. I mean, he's a great international style player. I think, and they could all three be on the floor. Well, maybe not all three on the floor, but I think they could. I need to be mentioned for sure. Yeah. All right. Since we've kind of power through basically

every good basketball player team. Why don't we take a break and come back and talk about some bad ones? All right. So we talked a lot about Quy Leonard as an MVP candidate. We have to talk about Ben Matherin, who all of a sudden looks like he might be an MVP candidate down the road. What's funny is when that Pacer's trade happened, I did kind of have one of those like,

huh, he's the type of second draft guy that I think deserves another look. Because it's funny, like, I think what's going to end up happening is a lot of these really good deep teams are just going to shed their skin and a lot of other like more mediocre teams are going to reap the benefits of it. We've seen that a lot with the thunder where it's just like, yeah, here's Luzman Jang. He was like a pick before Jalen Williams. You guys could just have him because we just can't play him.

Matherin's one of those guys where like started off his career strong, had actual minutes in the finals, like impact minute in an NBA finals last year. In game seven of the finals, like was a life. flying. But the Pacers just play such a specific way that he doesn't necessarily align with, but I was just like, man, any team that can kind of like, that has the space for him might be on to

something there. And it looks like Rob, like, the Clippers were right to identify him as a guy to even match salary. Oh, clearly. I mean, Ben Mathuron as a score, just kind of rules. Like, he's awesome to watch. He's a bulldog when he wants to be. Post all-star briggy's leading the league in

free throw attempts because he's just driving and driving and driving. And maybe most crucially for the clippers right now, they just need somebody who can handle the ball. Someone needs someone who can be aggressive with it. And not in a traditional, you bring up an ISO and go to work kind of way. But when the ball swings to him on the weak side,

he makes something of all those opportunities. And how aggressive he can be in those moments, I think is one of the reasons why they're getting through this stretch where they obviously no longer have James Hardin, but they don't yet have Darius Garland. And so here comes Ben Matherin, putting up like 20 to a game and making it look frankly awfully easy.

to do it. Yeah, we were talking about, I mean, that kind of instigated the Yokic coverage comment because the Balanchunist, that might speak, we don't have time to go into that, the Nuggets defensive problems there and the anchoring. But, no, I mean, Yokic, like dropping and soft showing on Matherin was just a field day. I mean, he just scored over and over and over again on them. And, man, his separate, yeah, the pull-up stuff, he takes, it seems like he complicates his life on purpose, kind of similar to another guy.

we're going to talk about in a moment, but like in a way that he could tidy up over time. But man, his separation is just, it's nasty. It's violent. He's a tough cover. And it is, it's interesting because you're the Pacers and you're balancing. You do need guys like that who maybe, there may be kind of to the side of what your philosophy is, but you get in a scheme gridlock with a good team and you just need somebody who can go out there and, you know, turn milk into butter at times and make something out of nothing.

And that's who he is. It'll be interesting to see how much more he can expand from here. He does have a physicality and a bully ball sort of mentality that I think a lot of these other similar type of high scoring. Like I just really want to take the game by the throat sort of wing sort of have. And he's just incredibly demonstrative about that. Like, I mean, LeBron quotes before are what they are. He was talking about being the best player in the league when he first got there. Clearly has the mindset of that.

But I do wonder, especially for him and players of his player type, what is the ultimate ceiling there? Because it feels like he does want things to revolve around him, which is probably why he's coming off the bench at this point. Do we ever see him as a type of guy who's going to be playing alongside Kauai from the start, especially because now that he's entering restricted free agency, you do have to pay him. And so this is probably the same quandary the basers have where it's like,

oh, he does something very well, but how well can he do this at like the highest level? Yeah, I think especially because you're paying him in whoever pays in the summer, it's going to be paying him based off intrigue, right? It's off of these kinds of glimpses, game seven, not who he is night to night tonight, but who he is when you need him to be that sort of counterpunch. And I think Kauai, weirdly enough, is like a pretty good place to put him, right? Someone who is a little more isolation-driven in terms of the way they create offense,

and Mathuron is such a self-starter on the other side of the floor that it just kind of makes sense. So you could play him off Kauai, you could bring him off the bench or continue to. I think for other teams, or if you want to zoom out as far as what the clipper offense is going to be for the next five years, there is that element where I think Kyle,

you absolutely nailed it as far as like, he can feel a little bit like an offshoot or an accessory that is built to address those moments where everything else breaks down. But can he be a part of your fundamental philosophy when everything goes right? That's kind of always been the Ben Mathurin question. Yeah.

We'll just have to see more of a sample size to get a better feel for that because, you know, when he was running, you know, when he was budding up against what the Pacers were trying to do that. I think we'll need a different sample size is kind of what my point is there. And with Garland coming back too, I honestly kind of wonder if Mathurin, Maturin, I tried to make a word joke there that really did not work. Thank God that didn't get captured. Jesus Christ. No, if he does continue to evolve in this promising way, I think you could really benefit Garland, too, in a way where Garland, you know, we were trying to do this dual small guard thing with him forever.

Him playing against two kind of wing-size scores, I think, could balance out into something pretty interesting. The Clippers definitely reset, I think, at the right time. I think, like, there's a lot of fretting, including from me over wide, like, kind of break up a team that was probably playing the best basketball in the NBA, that point, but it really seems like they got ahead of what was going to be an inevitable decline, and they do have, like, kind of an interesting construction. How much of that is because they kind

of felt the heat coming around their other corner, and all of a sudden they had to, like, put all of their stuff into the shredder in order to just get something out of it, like, just like closed their Cayman Island bank accounts and just put it under like a rock or something. Yeah. It definitely seems like it paid off. So the 2022 draft, pretty fascinating, because there are players here, but there are a lot of them, we're still kind of like, where are we going to end up here? Paulo, I think, the number one pick first and foremost. We got to talk about that at some point because magic just have not figured

theirself out. Yikes. But Mathering goes number six overall, right? Behind Jaden Ivy, behind Kagan Murray. Number seven is Shaden Sharp. Similar type of players, also from Canada, scoring wings, different flavors of the same sort of type. If you guys were to choose from this.

point forward today, Monday, February 23rd. From this point forward, who are you taking the career of? Matherin or Sharp? I will answer this question as soon as you put money in the swear jar. No. No more swear to remotely having a place. This is just my life. You're like, but what about Shaden Sharp?

They were drafted right next to each other. I guess that's fair. I could defend Justin a little bit on this one. I think they are pretty similar archetypes. I think it's fair. Thank you, Kyle. I think, God, I mean, this is a tough one. Because I think Shaden to me is still more likely to be a star than Ben Matherin is.

But Ben Matherin has already proven he can be useful to teams competing at the highest levels. And I am enough of a Shaden Sharp pessimist, I think I would take Matherin and kind of the security of, if nothing else, I know he can be a good sixth man. I know he's physical enough to be a good rebounder. I know he's a good enough driver to be a consistent source of offense, be a, John just relying on the come and go of his jump shot and gets to the free throw line enough to anchor some of that stuff. So I think I would take Mathrin, but I'm saying that acknowledging that Sharp's high end,

I think is even higher than Ben Matherin's is. It's tough because you really do have to account for the, he scored those points in a finals in a game seven colored glasses. And it's like if you... What color is that? I don't know. Well, I'll get back to you. It's, uh, I think if you, to,

to do the uh to do the can't i wonder like what is this metaphor i don't understand what's happening question rob all right okay so what you want me to say peri winkle uh yes if you claw machined if you claw machined again to do it this way shading sharp into that final since they are so similar could he for the sake of the hypothetical could he have done what matherin did in that finals is how much of that is justin seems skeptical i i don't think it's anything with stakes no i don't think So, yeah. It's, yeah. So, I mean, it's interesting because I kind of worked through this

when it on that draft where I was trying to just get a clear idea of who Shaden is. And I think over time, I feel a little better about this where I think I would take Matherin. I just trust Matherin's basketball sensibility a little more. I know the raw materials with Shaden are incredible. I mean, he's such a, they're both terrific athletes, but Shaden is a pretty special. He's special among special athletes. And that would make you think the shot creation, he could be a, but a star, I would lean towards Matherin, I think, in terms of, like, banking on their playmaking,

like, development. Yeah, I think, I think Matherin has the higher floor, Sharp has the higher ceiling. Shaden just has that thing. I don't know if you guys had this, but like a guy in your high school or a gal who just, like, they just do everything so easily. It's like all of a sudden they step on a skateboard and they're just fucking kick flipping after trying it for two minutes. He's just like unnatural at everything.

And because of that, I think things just come easy to him. him. He just doesn't have the sort of like dog in him that Matherin and someone like Scoot has. But if he had that sort of mentality with his athleticism, because it just like, this guy just moves in a different speed than everybody else. So I probably bank on the talent while acknowledging that I'm probably going to bust that. Like the bust straight on Sharp is way higher than Matherin, who seems like I think he's just going to be who he is right now. I am concerned with both of them about the shooting. I do think Sharp stroke. is way more natural and but for whatever reason just doesn't translate math runs is a little bit more perplexing because he started as a rookie just firing it up there um and just seems to have

kind of settled in this weird place where he's like a fine shooter he's actually doing more damage probably as a mid-range shooter and so that worries me a little bit but ultimately i think he's going to i think i have a clear sense of him being a good player where sharp i don't know if he's going to be a good player yes and that's a tough one to square when the best version of sharp is so much more valuable, I think, than the best version of Mathrin. And so, yeah, it all comes down to your risk appetite and, like, how you're valuing those kinds of outcomes. In the present tense, I think the Clippers have to be thrilled with how easy a fit Ben

Mathuron has been into everything that they do. And even, like, I just love even, like, the Chris Dunn synergy, right? Like, you see Chris Dunn being a bulldog on the ball and Mathrin plays passing lanes pretty well, and he has the athleticism in the open court. He just fits so much of what they're trying to do, even in this weird, like, like, you know, makeshift state of the clippers. Yeah,

when you all were talking about them, but the, they are such similar players. Like, I went and checked their assistive usage, which basically just like your get off ball sensibility. And yeah, Sharp is 0.5,

which is fifth percent on the league. And, and Mathrim was 0.6. So they're both down there in the same. They want to score. And that's what they're going to try to do first and foremost. And then if you make them pass,

they will. So you're saying, this is a good question. independent of my preferences and leaning. I just think it's a good question. You want praise. I'm talking to Rob via you, okay? As is often the case.

I just think you could have brought up any other guard, any other wing in the league, and you happen to pick a Portland Trailblazer. The guy picked right after him. Yeah. It's a little noticeable. Just quickly, before we get to our last topic here, Yonik Hive.

Are we all in? Yonik Vum. It's so real at this point. It is striking. Just a bouncy, physical guy. I think he's going to be starting at center, maybe even as soon as the next year. I mean,

Brooke has had great moments, but, like, Yonix's future with the team looks so bright right now. He, I mean, he's obviously very mobile, but his poise,

just like putting the ball on the floor, shoulder into a guy, hitting a little floater in the lane, is impressive in and of itself. But also, like, the subheadline of Ben Matherin almost hits a crazy game-winning three against the magic is,

Yanuk Conan Niederhauser did have an almost game saving block to set up Ben Matherin for that three. And that shit is just happening with alarming regularity. Like he's just making huge impact plays all the time at this point. Yonat Conan Niederhauser, it just sounds like

the lyrics to like a folk song from like Switzerland or some Yonin Kona Kona Niederhauser, Van, it's just a wild name. But yeah, his his ball security was the thing that really worried me the most. It just had big Willie we call Lee Stein, Javelle vibes.

And I was just kind of like, I don't know about this, but you're right, man. I mean, he's been a quick study in a way that's been really impressive. All right. So speaking of players who may or may not be good, I think this is a perfect time to talk about Cam Thomas. Yeah. It would be funny if we had a recurring bit at the end of every podcast,

where you're like, do you guys want to talk about Cam Thomas and me and Kyle just say no and we leave? I'll be honest. I just, I have a thing for Cam Thomas. Perhaps like because I'm the ultimate Zaga. and I do like players that other people don't like. You say Zaga? Was that a Boston accent?

Zagher? Yeah. Oh, boy. Oh, wow. You got on me for Maturin. Come on. I like a Zag. And I do feel like Cam might be a little bit of a distressed asset that I could buy low in.

But I do think, like, clearly the microwave off the bench, I will take 20 shots a game somehow, scorer is a type that is valuable to a certain team. The bucks happen to be that certain team because they don't have enough talent in order to scratch together enough wins to even make the playing in the East. And I think Cam is better than those type of guys like Cole Anthony that they tend to cycle through four or five of in a given season. Am I wrong? You're not wrong.

Look, he's clearly been successful doing exactly the thing they need him to do. And right now, the version of that thing is literally four dudes standing around while Cam Thomas Cooks. And it is a sight to behold. It's clearly effective. And I want to say to give all credit where it's due, this has been one of the first times in basically Cam's entire career where his team has been better with him on the court.

And so it's not just like, I'm putting up numbers to put up numbers. It's like, this is driving the winning of a team that, sure, opponents might not be taking the most seriously at this point in time. But they're trying to stop Cam Thomas and nobody can seem to do it. Like, that is real within a certain sample of, you know, 20-ish minutes a game. he's capable of creating these contained situations where nobody can check him because that's I mean he's good at doing that it's just the bucks are in this unique situation where they really could use someone to come in and be a star level player who we know we were just heaping all

the accolades on all these guys who do it and play chess and blah blah blah blah do all these great things that stars do it's like um cam thomas just he does he kind of I was trying to think of musician that reminded like Dave Navarro I was trying to think of somebody who can come in and fit the part but then you're like once you need like to be in a band for 10 years you're like I'm not we're not doing this and he there was a play

where and also this is the end of the season this is so this sample size where we're talking about this it's like we have to do it we have to talk about it it always has an asterisk I know people love when I interrupt myself but there was a play in the Bucks game against I forget

who they were even playing but he comes and just dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoots on that. And I watched and then lined it up against a few different sequences where he had the ball. The Bucks bench sat so, they were down 20 points,

but they sat completely motionless for like 30 seconds. No one moved. No one spoke. I was like, this is just a dejected organization. Like, this is where we are. They've turned to this man. It was like, I just found it deeply comical.

There are moments like that. But again, I do want to give credit, because I think it's not just a cam thing. the bucks all of a sudden have like an actual bench that plays with real energy for basically the first time all season like the Gary Harris, Cole Anthony, Amir coffee, Gary Trent types. Like half of those guys are gone and half of them

have been completely marginalized in the rotation. And here comes the aforementioned Usman Jang. Here comes Pete Nance. Here comes Cam Thomas. These aren't world beating players, although Cam Thomas can appear to be one from time to time. But they're just giving the buck some semblance of depth, some semblance of an actual NBA rotation.

it's amazing what good that can do when you have guys who actually play at an NBA level of even just intensity over the course of a game. I'm telling you, like, it's a real trickle-down economics thing happening in the NBA where good teams just cannot roster all of the good players that they draft. I thought you were talking about with Cam, or Cam is the Reagan, you know, like really, it just kind of works out some way. No, but like, Cam's a probably a different case, but some of those other guys are just, like, other teams just can't have these guys.

And so if they're going to go anywhere, it's actually a bad team where they can immediately step into playing time. And all of a sudden, Usman Jang is just like having these breakout nights. Cam is getting featured in a way that the wooden in Brooklyn, not because they didn't have the opportunity, but like they just kind of just ran out of just emotional bandwidth for dealing with that situation. And I don't know. The bucks all of a sudden, like, there's something there. Perhaps they're just spurred into action because they saw that young. as of today is committed to them,

they're just like, wow, this is our moment. He might come back and play and actually want to be here for a couple weeks. Do you think that's what's happening? I want the Kalshi odds on Yonis giving a shit about Camp Thomas. That's what I want. Can we get that?

I knew the odds of Kalshi getting mentioned at the end of this were really, really good. I just was waiting for up to say it. Sorry. He did. The low-hanging fruit for sporting abominations. Like, I'm just going to grab it every time. Anything else you guys have from the past four days before we get out here?

I had my gym story that I was going to tell. Oh, let's do it. Yeah, what happened to the gym with you? Jim Corner? Man, this happened. Yeah, Jim Corner. We've had some good gym stories on here, I think. Hopefully this will rise to that.

No, we take my son to the pool a lot. It's a very efficient energy burner. Parents know this. If they're listening, get his little ass worn out on the weekends. So, no, so we go in there and, you know, we're swimming for an, probably 40, 45 minutes. And at some point, everyone is told to get out of the pool because someone has pooped in the pool. So everybody, and, you know, we don't know how long this is going to last.

I'm probably not going to get it back in. But we were like, hey, you know, Julian, go chill for a little bit. Go watch a show on my phone or wherever we're going to sit. It's cold here. It's nice to sit and end it with the hot tub. So I was like, I'm going to get my 10, 15 minutes of hot tub. So a lot of parents have congregated there. The pool is cleared out.

Everybody's on the side. It's a lot of people. there are a lot of kind of just meandering in their own world old dudes at my gym and at every gym to be honest with you. They're just kind of sauntering through. I always say one of the games I play at my gym is just don't see old balls. That's one of the real challenging games I play. It's like Frogger.

Yeah, just avoid seeing old balls. But no, he had his clothes on. But this guy gets in at the far end of the pool and he gets in and the poop is over on the total other side where it is. and they're cleaning it up. And this old guy just gets in the pool while everybody else. And the lifeguards are like, no, hey, don't get. Don't get.

And he's like, well, he's like just missing them. I don't even think he was speaking like, I don't even know, but not English. But so maybe that was part of the problem. So he is walking across the pool towards where the poop is. He's like, they're like, no, get out over here. He walks through. This was just this incredibly comical scene that's unfolding while all these parents are in the, in the hot tub watching this.

He walks through where they're. of cleaning the poop up, gets out of the pool, and it's like this little kid family area with, like, toys and everything. So he's out of the pool now. And he acts like he's going to walk towards the hot tub. And everybody's like, no, no, no, no. It's incredible moment of chaos. But I was like, could have absolutely been on an episode of Curb. So God bless old it was great. It was there. We had to laugh afterwards, but I didn't want to be in the pool with old poopy guys. Well, what's the statute of limitations on the poop in the pool, though, Kyle? like, I got to tell you, they're not going to drain that pool.

No, I don't know how it works. I kind of don't want to know. That's the thing. Go back. Just never, never go back. No, there's no way I would step foot in that gym again. Here's the problem. I assure you, every public pool you've ever been in, somebody has pooped in it.

So. Going to a public pool? What do you think? I'm a single adult man. You think I'm going to a public pool? I think at some point in your life you have. Yeah, when I was young. You paid a club premium $85 for the day to go sit out in a chair and

some sun and that pool somebody has pooped in too. The nicest pool in the world has had poop in it at some point, I betcha. I would bet you. It's unimportant. There's a real soaking sauna sort of scene out here in Portland because it's so gray and rainy most of the winter. People just go and sit in like the hot tub or whatever cold plunge together. I'm not doing that.

I'm not fucking just like hanging out. No. In an intimate little like circle with strangers. Like, what is this? You're anti-bathouse is what I'm hearing. Yeah. It's not what I've heard. Yeah.

You just want to go to the poop version of Jaws where everyone is just like running scared from a looming turd. That part doesn't seem great either. I've got to be honest with you. I'm just never going to forget this guy arguing with lifeguards in like Turkish as he walks through poop. Oh, what a special moment. It's one of those things where, like, I don't agree with what he did, but I do, I will defend my death of his right to do it. Like, if he's on the other side of a giant public pool, like, is he really at risk?

I don't even know. He just journeyed to walk through the poop. Okay, the through the poop is not good. How did we get here? This is where all Cam Thomas conversations lead, talking about pooping in the pool. Like, there is a metaphor for someone who wants to mine it, but I will not be the one to do it. Somebody will do it for us, I'm sure. Yeah, why don't we leave that to the comments?

section. And why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back on Thursday. We'll talk to you then. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. We'll talk to you next time. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit RG-L.com. Call 1-88-789-77 or visit ccpg.org. Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.com in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling help line ma.m.m.m.org or call 800-327-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1877-8-N-Y or text Hope NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1877-770-8867-786867.