The Ringer NBA Show - The De’Aaron Fox Derby, Jimmy Butler’s Best Options, and More Pressing Trade Deadline Questions | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos answer the biggest questions ahead of next week’s trade deadline. They take a look at suitors for De’Aaron Fox (6:05), Jimmy Butler, and Zach Lavine (30:35). They also predict which team makes a surprising move (45:42), and who doesn’t make a move but should’ve (47:31). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, everybody? Logan Murdoch here from Real On the Ringer MBA show, and I want to invite you to pull up and kick it with Roger Bell, Howard Beck, and myself during All-Star weekend for our live podcast. We're going to be at the Stork Punchline Comedy Club in San Francisco on Saturday, February 15th at 2 p.m. pre-gaming all the all-star festivities, and you never know who might stop by. Get your tickets now by heading over to ringer.com backslash events. That's ringer.com backslash events. to see you there. And welcome to group chat.

I am Justin Verrier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was, gentlemen, the votes are in. Turns out it wasn't a mustache. I've heard from many people

in person, pro online, not a mustache. We tried to tell you. Yeah. What are you doing? How does he have this full beard thing going on the side and say,

there's a mustache thing growing there? Well, here's the thing. I want to do both. I just want the mustache. to be more prominent, almost like a cat, you know? Like a cat? Yeah, you know how the cat has like this fur

is a little bit more prominent above the mouth region? So you have to say your barber to shave your beard to on the one or a half and then just leave the stash. So you will still have that effect, but you know, the stash will be getting the love that it deserves. You guys are getting facial hair trims at the barber? I've never done that before.

I'm not. Yeah, you have to. Black, you have to. Do you? I mean, I'll take your word for it. I just didn't know this was a thing. I mean, obviously know the service is available. You think I could do this on my own?

With all due respect was, yes, I do. I don't, I'm not trying to take business away from your barber. The sharpness is crazy. The first day, the day wanted it stash, you wouldn't believe how crispy it is. Okay, okay. I could. I know how crispy it gets. How's everybody else doing?

Any news? Fantastic. any events in your family's lives that you want to announce I don't know absolutely nothing that's on the level of your stash I think that is clearly the headlining news of the day I look forward to see its continued development just now that it's

officially become a part of our firmament here as a show yeah we'll get like a little tracker going maybe as a social graphic and it'll just be like the guy developing from monkey to man just be me with the full beard to a slightly different version of it

so that'll be fun for everyone okay Guys excited for the trade deadline week away? I am. It feels like things are actually going to happen, which is nice. I feel like last year we were so bummed out by the lack of movement during last year's trade deadline. It felt like such a come down and a letdown. I think this year is going to be different. I think a lot of teams, you know, sort of jumbled in that middle that aren't Boston, Cleveland.

OKC, et cetera, want to make a step, you know, in the direction of, you know, title contention. And so I think there's going to be moves that happen. So that's really exciting. And, you know, I used to be a bit of a transaction snob. I'd be like, why are all these normies so excited about moves happening? They need to be more excited about Kyrie's reverse layups.

I've changed my tune on that. I get excited for new things, new settings. new settings, new environments, new things to learn about teams. So I'm looking forward to the deadline. What do you think brought about this change in your life was? Was this just like you hit a certain age and all of a sudden you're looking out the window and enjoying the beauties of the natural? You've come to enjoy and appreciate your circumstances and environment a little bit more.

Is that what's going on? Well, that, I know you guys, the people on YouTube can see the grays in my beard. I'm definitely becoming wiser with the day. But mainly it's that we went to two pods a week, so that's double the content. For content purposes, yes. That's really what happened for me. The beast must be fed. Yes.

And very thankful to Deeran Fox to clutch to the Sacramento Kings for feeding the beast in such a significant way that we now have all of these new, like, maybe not new, but what's old is new again in terms of the deer and Fox trade rumors. Next time I see Rich Paul at the Bird Streets, I'm going to thank him. The Bird Streets? Yeah, it's a spot. Okay. Spars members only. Rob, you know about that spot? I don't know.

about it, but I'm not surprised that Watts does. I can get you guys in next time you're in L.A. What's the vibe over there? I once walked in there and freaking, first of all, Leonardo DiCaprio was there, which I was just like, I was losing my mind, whatever, but you're not allowed to do that in there. You know, L.A., you got to play it cool. Tristan Thompson walks in, and Leo makes a B-line for this dude. and they are talking as if they are old friends,

as if they've known each other their whole lives. I was like, how is Tristan Thompson this freaking important? But yeah, that's the type of spot the Birdstreet's is. There are levels to fame, Justin, and there's the Leo level, and there's clearly the Tristan Thompson level, which is ascendant inexplicable beyond us in many ways. Well, there are levels to trade deadline targets as well. unfortunately I'm surprised that you guys are so so worked into a frothier over the trade deadline.

I have a hard time basically after the top two to three guys finding anything that's really percolating here. But as Rob was mentioned, and we did get the Deeran Fox News yesterday. He's the big guy on the board right now. It's kind of funny, Rob, because at first, I think a lot of people just were behind Fox because it's like, where are the Kings going? They're not playing well. they then proceeded to rip off what was like what a 10 and 2 run they're now 11 and 4 with Doug Christie and he's kind of like yeah I mean I meant next year I meant next year we can't compete but we're still in the same place I think we ultimately assumed we'd get to um what do you thinking about this are there any teams on the board because it sounds like fox has a preference for

san antonio are there any teams on the board that you think make a better fit from that or this This is like San Antonio's derby to lose. Well, the rodeo to lose. What is a derby? A derby? It's a horse race. It's a horse race. I mean, there's not exactly as much of a thing in Texas, but, you know, there's partaking of horse racing of all kinds.

I think this is a case where the simplest answer on the board and the most straightforward answer on the board might be the best one. I think Wemby and Fox together would be an incredibly dynamic combination. I think I'm really eager personally for Victor Webbenyama to play with a point guard who is actually a threat on the drive in a way that Chris Paul just at this stage of his career is not. That's not the way he navigates the game. Brings a lot to the table otherwise, but isn't doing what Deeran Fox does. And so there are a lot of questions to answer if you're the Spurs. Like, is this the big swing you want to take? Do you believe in the internal development of the players you wouldn't have to give up in a Deeran Fox deal to the point that they could become a third star down the line, or at least a really high level player,

down the line alongside Wembe and Fox that that's kind of the core you want to commit to. And ultimately, I'm looking at this situation with great intrigue as one of the first stars to come out outright in the market and say, that guy, Victor Wemianama, that's the guy I want to play with. And that's not something we see for a lot of international players. It's happened a couple different times with Luca as guys have come available. But other than that, it does not happen very often. And it's fascinating that it's come together so quickly for Wembe, if also understandable why it's come together so quickly. Yeah, which is why. I think the Rockets need to be bold here.

I think the Spurs are going to be patient. They're not going to, like, get bullied into some, you know, Kevin Durant type of deal, mortgage the future to get Fox. They're not doing that. That's not been their history, obviously. And they probably feel like you're just not in a position to have to be desperate. And so I think a team, like Houston, should be ultra-aggressive in the moment. and don't be satisfied with what you've accomplished already.

I get it. The season is going way better than even the most optimistic Houston people could have predicted beforehand. Me and Rob being two of the most optimistic, I will say very much. As we know. No, but like, just because things are going great right now doesn't mean you can't be better immediately by upgrading your point guard position to DeAnre Fox

and be bold enough to think that you could keep them. Go in, swoop him from the spurs on some, if you snooze, you lose type of situation, get the guy's bird rights. So now you can pay him even more than the spurs, even if they decide, hey, we're going to clear the cap space for this guy. So now you're putting yourself in a position where you can offer him more while having him in a winning environment

in a great city. He knows the area well. I just think the rocket should be trying to be bold, but it's not typically what we see teams do in their position. Teams that are overachieving, you know, number two in the West as they are right now, don't swing for a huge trade that completely changes the dynamic of the team.

That's just like most management structures are too conservative to go that route. But I think the rocket should seriously consider bringing this guy in because he would be an upgrade to everything they're doing on the ball right now. Yeah, number two in the West and not fading. They're currently riding a four-game win streak. Guys are going down and a Menton.

Thompson just keeps getting better, practically every game. At first it was, well, will he stick in the starting lineup? And now it's like, should we orient our entire future around what this guy could be, 33 points in that win over the Celtics, including the game winner? I'm at the point where if they just want to hit the pause button on everything, figure out what they have this season, play a playoff series. Go for it. Like, I would wait, even if it is a player better than Fox because I don't know what I have

with most of these guys. And one of them could potentially be a top 10 player. this leave. And so for that reason, I would be surprised if they got into the mix, although they do have to consolidate at some point. We'll see in the offseason. The Spurs, though, Rob, I think are the most interesting team on the board here for the reason that you outlined. When was the last time you saw a guy almost jumped the line and say, hey, I want to actually be this guy's running me. I can't think of a single time that's happened even with an American-born players. It almost seems like he wants to be the first guy to talk to the hot girl at the dance while everyone else is

like smart and like oh god i i wish i had thought about that first uh my thing with the spurs though did you want to jump in there i was going to ask if he was the tristan thompson thompson in this in this scenario you know dearon foxes walked into the bird room and it's like you know what that's that's my guy that's the guy i got to make a beeline for bird streets bird streets sorry bird streets i apologize to mr bird street it's not a it's not a room that i made the impassioned case a couple weeks ago that the spurs shouldn't do anything right and I still kind of believe that you want to work through all the dimensions of Victor Webbenyama's development. On the other hand, I was looking through some of their draft picks recently, and a lot of them are kind of in that middle tier zone where it's like, what are the ones that are actually going to get us at the top of the draft, which is the ones that we want to preserve in order to find the number two for Wembe.

And it's really the Atlanta picks the next three years. They're both, they're all unprotected ones to swap. and I'm looking at the Hawks, even with Jalen Johnson out for this season, are they ever going to get to the point where they're like top five in the draft bad? I don't know. And so at this point, I'm like, I think Fox might be the best player we can get with all of this asset clump. And so why not do it sooner rather than later? They also are playing a different game than the Rockets are in terms of Deere and Fox's level of interest, or at least projected level of interest so far, right?

There is the Deerrin Fox that is under contract for 18 months. And so far, the supposition is that he is not eager to just resign with anybody. And you would really have to prove something to him to get him to stay. There wouldn't be a lot of security in that arrangement unless it's the spurs. And there seems to be an openness about a potential negotiation there for an extension and a timeline that makes sense in terms of getting him there as soon as possible so he can be eligible for that extension sooner. All that stuff makes all the sense in the world.

And while we are amending our previous takes, Justin, as you did about the spurs and whether they should stand pat. Was, I was on the same page as you that I thought the Rockets should trade specifically for Fox. The last time we were talking about his trade rumors as they were coming up before the Kings reversed course on their season and managed to start bailing things out. And I will say the Amin Thompson thing has swayed me to give him space in the way that JV outlined. Like, I think the Rockets are good enough. A guy hits one game winner, you want to change the course of the franchise. Okay.

You know that my relationship with Amend Thompson goes back much further than that. But I think his play over the last month or so, and specifically his ability to fill a void in the team that they have sorely needed, I'm not in a rush to fill that space and to say, okay, here's a star level point guard who's all of a sudden going to start doing a lot more creation, a lot more stuff. Not because Aman Thompson and Deer and Fox couldn't play together. I think obviously they could.

Maybe it'd be a little more awkward in some ways, but they would figure it out. That's not a core I'm worried about. But I just want to see what a man Thompson can be. I don't know what position he plays. I don't know what his best use is in the offense. And I want to, if you can be this good and still have room for him to do that, and Jalen Green to keep getting better, and Alpern Shankgoon to keep flexing his game, and all of these young prospects to find their way,

I'm a little resistant to tinker with that too much. So I'm going to see your amend Thompson praise and raise it. I actually think he's the kind of player where if you did make him shoulder that bird and he could do it. but you put this guy in a winning environment, he's going to find a way to make your team better, no matter what the sort of context is. And, you know, if you put a more ball-dominant point guard there,

yes, fine, it's going to take the ball out of his hands, but this kid is going to find a way to make himself useful and make the team much better than it ordinarily would be. And so that's why, like, the idea that we shouldn't want to upgrade our talent because we want to see a men Thompson flourish. I don't think talent diminishes what this guy can contribute. You know what I mean? Like, I think he's going to add on top of whatever you have going on.

That's why I think, you know, they should go for it. And I think our experience in Vegas kind of just convinced me of that. And I get it. It was only one game. But, like, his understanding and feel is at just the highest level. And so how do I make my mind? myself the best possible running mate with Fred Van Vleet. Okay, I'll figure that out. With Dylan Brooks, I'll figure that out. I think you can figure it out with DeAnron Fox, too.

Definitely. The timing of this trade request or how public it's gotten is interesting. And I also think the language is also something to take note of because this is the Kings being open to the idea of doing that. And so I think if the Spurs are the frontrunner, you would presume that they think that they might have time to figure this out. Maybe they could do both. of the things that I'm outlining, wait until the offseason, give Wemby a run to maybe have a playing game or two under his belt at best, probably, and then we'll figure this out in the off season. Fox wants to come here. We have time. But typically what happens is the team saying, like, well, if he's going to go anyway, let's try to get bidders to jump the line, perhaps

on the spurs in order to get in the mix now. And so if it's not, I don't think it's the Rockets who also have time, just because they're on their time, own time, I'm depending on who they really want to prioritize on that roster. Although I think the number crunch starts this offseason, but they'll figure it out, right? They have stuff. They're not worried. I think they're a team to be worried about if you're the Spurs in like a Paul George goes to OKC as opposed to L.A.

just waiting on him to come in free agency that summer sort of deal. I think it's Miami. I think Miami just has the interests. Clearly, they're always big star hunting. They want to prove a point at this point. I'm sure Pat Riley really wants to stick it to Jimmy. he makes sense there for a lot of reasons, but also because Bam and Fox played together in Kentucky.

I think my question, Rob, is if you have Hero, who's playing very, very good this year, is there too much of an overlap there? Do you think those two work together? And I think beyond that, would you even get rid of Hero in order to bring in Fox? Well, ideally, you wouldn't have to, because I do think they can work together.

I think Hero can be a really dynamic player on and off the ball. I think D. Aaron Fox has proven to be that too. And I think part of the reason we're talking about teams like the rockets and like the heat is they have hub centers that we already have a proof of concept for for Fox that he can play off as a bonus. And so if you wanted to run action through Bam out of bio through Alper and Shangun, he knows how to do that at a really, really high level. I think this is a natural place to sort of blend our first question about Deeran Fox with the second question you had outlined for us, Justin, about if Jimmy Butler doesn't go to Phoenix, where is he going to go?

why are these two trade conversations about Jimmy Butler and Deerran Fox mutually exclusive? Why couldn't they be the same conversation? Why couldn't a team like Sacramento that is desperate not only to maintain its leverage in the Deeran Fox sweepstakes, as you said, but also desperate to make the playoffs and be good immediately? Why couldn't they be a Jimmy Butler

destination? And there's just enough in there for it to work, like a Fox, and I think Trey Liles would probably be the natural contract that would have to be included to make the math work. I don't suspect that Jimmy Butler wants to be a Sacramento king. And so he's walking at Memphis, but he's down to go to couch.

I'm not saying he's down, but I think if the Kings want to make a move. He watched Lady Bird like the rest of us. He was like Sacramento. Not the worst place ever. We all know it. Jimmy Butler knows it. It is the Salameason, so he's trying to ride the wave.

I just think it's one of these things where if the kings are feeling a sense of urgency that say the spurs are not to make a deal like this happens sooner than later. You start looking around the room. The suitors are maybe the rockets, maybe the Lakers. We'll see if, I think the heat would have obvious interest, given what the Jimmy Butler trade market has been like.

And maybe there's a way to connect those dots or to connect them through a third team. Yeah, I don't think they have the stones to bring in a Jimmy Butler who is, you know, unhappy in Miami to think we're just going to trade for him, even though he doesn't want to be here, and think that things are going to work out in our favor. That just seems like something that Sacramento probably doesn't have the stomach

for, although I do like this has an idea of, you know, actually like for like in terms of All-Star for All-Star. And, you know, obviously way different stages in their careers. But yeah, I think Jimmy Butler, a motivated Jimmy Butler would make Sacramento plenty tough going down the stretch. I just I just don't know that they have the stones to do it. And just to end off the Spurs conversation, I don't think there's a single other max contract worthy person on their roster. And the presumption that they're just going to bring one in, who isn't a guy who's already stated his preference to be your freaking building,

that you would just sit on your hands and let nothing to happen, I think it's crazy. I don't think that that's the issue so much as is D.A. and Fox that guy. I think there are a lot of players in San Antonio you would hope if you're the Spurs are going to get better over time and you could package some of those players together. You're just going to assume

another max worthy guys dying to move to San Antonio? I think if you have Victor Webbenyama, that's what you're betting on, ultimately, is that Fox is not going to be the last guy who wants to do this. And I don't think it's unfair to look at Deeran Fox, a very good,

but, was, you said, all-star. Fringe, he's a fringe all-star. A fringe all-star level player who hasn't had an opportunity yet to prove a ton in the league, granted for reasons that are largely beyond his control, as far as like winning at the highest levels go. Like, that's a big bet on Deerrin Fox. Like, you're talking about the future of the Spurs and the kind of next stage of the Victor Webonyama era. I like personally Deeran Fox is a fit for that, but I don't blame anybody who looks at it and says, is Fox quite the level of star that you want to be selling out for? I think it's reasonable to ask.

Yeah, to me it's more philosophical. I don't know if it's necessarily like, oh, we can be in the derby for the next superstar because I think you're right, wise. Like how many stars have we seen want to go to San Antonio? Even in the heydays, it was like Jason Kidd at best and he didn't end up going there. And so I think that's a factor at the very least. But I think it's more like, do the Spurs want to be the next Oklahoma City or do they want to accelerate the growth and be more like a typical big market team that's going to import those

sorts of guys. I just assume because of the spurs and they do think so methodically that they would want to be more like OKC. And then they'll just like keep feeding guys in. The role players will come in and out. Maybe we'll hit it big. But the problem as we're all outlining is like who's the next star and how do you get to the position where you're drafting at the top of the draft? Because even OKC needed to get a chat home grin at number three. Like where is that number three pick coming you know what? You know what? And you're going to appreciate this, Justin. You know what Rob is? Rob is that guy on Hinge who refuses to commit because he thinks he's going to swipe left

on the next hottie. I said they should have nothing about that. Commit now. Okay? I agree with you. You're not going to get a supermodel on Hinge. This girl likes you. Settle down. Start something serious.

I feel very attacked right now. It's not untrue, but it's just, you know, we'll mean. I'll just say that. Was is hidden close to home, but I think we're onto something with Deer and Foxx and the Spurs. I think Deer and Fox is onto something

with wanting to get there in the first place. I think this is a deal that makes sense, and there are enough pieces in play that could be appealing to Sacramento to make something that works. We'll see what the ultimate asking price ends up being, because if you're the Kings, rightly, you want to keep getting better,

but also you're giving up, like, the significant piece of the future of your team. so it's kind of a tricky situation to navigate. But there's so much here. I would just love to see it happen for basketball reasons. Yeah, I would be surprised if the Kings trade for Jimmy, but I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to do both things with other teams involved. Like, because of how complicated the CBA math is at this point,

I wouldn't be surprised if we just get one trade, like with seven different teams just trying to do everything at once. Because Jimmy's contract is so big and so onerous, And because you have like, you know, like Bradley Beale having a no trade clause, this is just so fucking complicated. Could you get Jimmy to Phoenix in a way that like ultimately rerout assets to Sacramento? I think it's important because I don't think it's happened enough around the Jimmy discussion has been about the soap opera aspect. But the deal and I asked around on this that allegedly Phoenix has offered him is two years on top of his guarantee next year. So that's an extra 120

on top of the 52 next year. It's a steep price. A lot of money. Yeah, steep price. And we tried to reverse engineer this. And I have to say, like, I am going blind with CBA exceptions as far as what the over 38 rule allows teams to actually do with teams like with players like Jimmy Butler. So I'm throwing my hands up at this point.

I will believe the extensions when they come for Jimmy Butler, the new deals, when they come for Jimmy Butler, but you get the apprehension from the team side. If you're not someone who's as immediately desperate as the Phoenix Suns, to look at Jimmy Butler and think about paying him 50 plus million for the next three plus years after this one, that's a big ask, even for a player of his caliber. A couple of professional journalists here just trying to figure out what's going on. As we do. Let me throw this option at you, if we're talking about like dark horses in the Fox Derby.

What about Toronto? because you're starting to hear a little whispers where it's like, maybe Toronto wants to get into the mix there. They kind of have their guy in Barnes, but clearly they need other guys to be around him. They paid quickly on a 60 mil last summer. Well, that could be starting point guard for the Sacramento Kings, Emmanuel quickly.

That's what I'm thinking. Because you're upgrading if you're Toronto, you have all your picks going forward. I think they're actually plus one based on from Siakam's trade. so they have one from Indy coming. Why can't you just flip quickly for Fox or quickly plus picks for Fox? I kind of like that for both teams. I don't hate it.

I think if you're Toronto, you would have to be very confident that you can keep Deer and Fox. And history tells us you probably shouldn't be given the way these kinds of negotiations go, given ultimately how a lot of NBA players still view Toronto to this day. You would have to have very specific intel that Fox is open to being there. Yeah. Was, where is Toronto as like a superstar, market now because I get the sense that like now people don't want to hang out with Drake.

Is that is that correct? I think I think Toronto is a great city when you're there. But I don't think anybody, especially an American, wants to sign up for going out of their way to move to Canada. I just don't think that is that. It's a great city. It's a great town. Nobody's ever been to Toronto. It's like, oh, I'm lacking for, you know, things to get myself into.

but just the commitment that it's like, all right, I'm gonna commit myself to five years in the North. I don't think it's there, honestly. That's why it makes more sense that I would be homegrown guys that you just keep extending. Or, you know, a guy like quickly, who's nobody's idea of a star or all star or anything like that, but you bring him in men and you sign him long term.

Rather than a guy like Fox who sees himself as a big entity in the league and feels like he has choices, I don't think Toronto is going to rate like that. And they're bad right now. Like, if they were trading for him and they were bringing him into a situation where it's like, yeah, we're top three in the East, let's go. I don't care how you feel about Toronto. You've never really done this consistently in terms of going to the second round,

challenging for conference championships, blah, blah, blah, blah. They don't have that to offer either. So, like, why would he be like, oh, I want to hitch my wagon to the Raptors? It just doesn't seem like a fit. I'm just going to throw this out there. Toronto Raptors have been playing surprisingly well lately. Very well on defense lately.

Now find themselves four and a half games out of the Eastern Conference plan. Jesus. It's not impossible that they could trade for somebody. And look, if you're talking about the Sixers and the Bulls and now the Hawks without Dylan Johnson as being their primary competition

for making a play in spot, crazier things have happened. Would I guess that it will? No. Should they trade for someone like Darren Fox or make the gesture? it's obviously something you should kick the tires on. But to your point, Waz, like, you may be doing it more for next year,

the full season you have Fox under contract next season and hoping for the best and then potentially what you have going forward. But you're missing this crucial basically six-month window of your kind of first period of having Fox. What about Orlando? It's probably the other team that you have to consider in this mix. Why, do you like that possibility? I love that as a possibility.

I think they're the type of team that should be thinking, you have the right to cut in line here on the spurs. We have two guys that are like obviously all-star level worthy players when they're on the floor. We have a clear hold in terms of maybe too much ball handling and initiation duties on Paolo Bonciero. And so Fox is a need. And he can play next to Suggs.

He's a clear, obvious fit and a need. And I think they should be a candidate. and looks at themselves like, wait a minute. I know you want to play with Wenbiyama, but like if we combine the powers of Franz and Paolo, like that's a nice situation. You know, Florida, no state income tax. Like, come on now.

We got things to offer here. And I think they should have the confidence definitely to step up and try to make a deal happen. What do you think, Rob? I think there's a version of this season where Paolo and Franz were healthy the whole time and the magic had a much clearer articulation of what their team was, where we get to February

and they are ready to make a swing for someone like Deere and Fox. But if I'm putting myself in their shoes at this moment, I'm seeing so many variables within their own team as far as what these guys can be and what they are to each other and how it all works together, that for one, incorporating another major new element right now

is not necessarily what they would want. And two, they just don't have a clear enough sense of if Deer and Fox is the exact kind of point guard that they need to drive things. I think I'm open, I'm open to the debate as far as what Orlando's biggest needs are. I think it's also reasonable to say that maybe what they need is someone who's a little bit more of a spacer and shooter than it is like a primary driving playmaker. Yeah. And if I'm Fox, the clear need for me is next to Wembe.

Like Orlando kind of already has their guys and they're already developing other guys to support that. Like Suggs is a big part of that team and like their entire identity. They'll say have anti-black kind of like waiting in the wings. There's just like it's a little bit more complicated than the fit in San Antonio where you can just day one. You are the number two for that guy. And honestly, maybe even the more emotional number one of that team. And you could just coast to being a one-two with Wembe going forward. And so, yeah, it's a little more complicated than it should be.

Is there any other team on the board for Fox that we can think of? Or is this the list? I think that's the realistic list. Yeah. Okay. Let's flip to Jimmy now because it sounds like the price is getting pretty low, in part because the heat just keeps suspending the hell out of it. He just keeps showing up and they keep sending him right back home.

We're now at the point that the reports indicate that, like, they're just look for anything at this point, which complicates things for Phoenix because Phoenix seemed to have the advantage because they were just so goddamn thirsty for Jimmy and they were just willing to make anything happen. Unfortunately, they have Bradley Beale. That's the only way they're going to get this done. He doesn't want to go anywhere bad. And most teams that are good don't want him. So that seems unlikely. I'll be honest.

At this point, maybe they make it happen just by sheer forward. of will, Jimmy wants to be there. They want him. This is how things happen in the NBA. But if there's another team on the board, wise, is there another team that can maybe like sneak in here and like get Jimmy out from under Phoenix's nose? I mean, I know a lot of people have talked about Memphis and Jimmy's already said he doesn't want to get to Memphis. And I know for a fact that the box have absolutely been thinking about possibly making the Jimmy thing happen. And I think that would be incredible for them. One, they have nightmares of what Jimmy has done to their playoff hopes.

100%. And most importantly, you get the hell off of Chris Middleton. I'm back on the Chris Middleton. Wow. I saw him live the other night. They had to take him off the court because he kept following because he couldn't stay in front of people. He's had some stup for sure. They need to get out of that business ASAP.

And Jimmy just makes it just makes them way better automatically. And I noticed I did it. Oh, Jimmy doesn't shoot it. Can he play with... Jimmy Butler, when he's motivated, can play with anybody, y'all. This guy's game is very malleable when this guy is motivated. Hell, he made Ben Simmons work, for God's sakes. This guy can do it when he's motivated to get it done.

I know the bucks aren't on his preferred list, but I think they have the players, they have the talent, and they should have the confidence, again, you know, internally. that you can convince Jimmy Butler, like, yo, don't tank the, you know, the next two years of your life being disgruntled. You know, play on a team that's going to try to compete for a championship. And you'll get your money, too. Here's my thing with the bucks. Should they set their sights a little bit higher than Jimmy Butler? Jimmy Butler?

That's pretty high. Well, our next question on the board is who's desperate enough to roll the dice on Zach Levine. Sure. And so I think it's funny because we talk about Phoenix where it's like, it's like a one to two years. thing at best. Yeah, yes. I kind of think Milwaukee is finding themselves in that similar situation where it's like, Dame is what?

He's 34 right now, going to be 35 next year. We're talking about this year and probably next year at best. So why am I not going all the way in getting the best possible player just to take advantage of the window right now? And if you look at the board, if everyone's like kind of waffling, where it's like, I don't know, I want to give up this pick and that big. I got second apron concerns. I got first apron concerns.

I got all these aprons to deal with. that 2031 unprotected bucks first could be kind of a game changer. So in 2031, Janus is going to be 36 years old. Damien Lillard is 40 years old. He'll probably be doing beat poetry down the street for me in Portland. I promise you that. So what I'm saying is like it's going to be bleak down the road eventually. Why don't just go all the way to fucking make a play for Levine?

And what it seems to be like what a Dissoumoo? That seems to be like a package deal. for them. Like, can I get the contracts plus that pick in order to get off Levine, who as recently as this summer was available for free? So to you, Levine is the bigger get than Jimmy Butler. I disagree. I think so. I understand why you think he's not going to help your offense and obviously presents a lot of defensive concerns, but I think offensively, you're just like pretty fucking dynamic at that point that I'm just going to roll with it. I have a lot of respect for Zach Levine. And I want to kind of talk, I want to put him aside for now because I think there's a

bigger conversation to be had about where he fits into all this and what the other teams for him could be. As it relates to the buck specifically, he's a cleaner fit than Jimmy Butler. But Jimmy Butler balls out in the playoffs every single time, basically. I think he's kind of unimpeachable as a competitor when he is troubled to give a shit. And that's clearly the problem in Miami right now is there's enough of a riff there that he's just not even going to show up, that he doesn't, he has no interest in being upstage by Haywood Highsmith. I get it. I get what's happening. The idea of putting Levine over Butler in a pecking order, I can't get behind just yet, despite the fact that despite how both of their seasons have gone. What Jimmy Butler represents to

me is something that is more closely attuned to serious competitive basketball. And what Zach Levine represents to me is somebody who's been awesome this year. And it's also one of the bigger injury risks in the league on a massive contract. And yeah, if you are the bucks or the sons, maybe that time horizon doesn't bother you so much. But I do think it bothers a lot of teams. And It's a reason why the Zach Levine market has been, relatively speaking, as quiet as it has been so far. Why, is Jimmy or Levine? I'm a Jimmy guy. I'm in the tank for Jimmy.

I really do think even at his age, I think last year people got it twisted, like, because he missed so many games during the regular season, people thought it was just like, bro, somebody fell on his freaking leg in the last game that he played it. He just literally could not play. There was that and there was other stuff. Like there's the real injuries with Jimmy last season And then there's the he's just kind of To end the season He had a real That is an injury

An observable injury Earlier in the year No early in the year was some other stuff going on It was a different As there almost always is with him these days But what I'm saying Like if you're expecting this to carry over into next season Or even in throughout the course of this regular season

Like Levine yes has had the track record of being injured But it seems like it's more major things that derail him completely versus with Jim me, like, you're not sure night to night and you have to do that with Dame. And, like, Janus to extend increasingly, especially how hard he plays, like, to me, that's like a tougher regular season fit than Levine is. Yeah. I just think if you, if your goal is to win a championship, I can't, like, I can't

believe that Zach Levine is more additive to a championship chase than Jimmy Butler. I just refuse to believe that on any team, in any circumstance, honestly. I think it might be a little. a bit of a finer point than that just because their skill sets are so different. You could see Levine shooting being really meaningful to certain kinds of teams. Orlando is a great example. Orlando can use Zach Levine and would not have any use for Jimmy Butler, relative to what the rest of their lineup is.

So those situations do exist. I just think the ones that could use Jimmy fundamentally, like Golden State still makes a lot of sense in the world. They're a team that probably should be operating like Phoenix is operating in some ways, that should be operating with that level of urgency, but so far have not. and they have financial considerations to navigate, just like the sons do. But I think the Warriors should be in the Jimmy Butler conversation,

have been in some respects in the Jimmy Butler conversation. I don't know if they're at the front of the line or not. I don't know if their offers appealing to the heat or not. We're going to have to see how all that unfolds. But that's a team that could use someone like him. Well, let's talk about the Warriors, because there are another obvious Jimmy Souter who could maybe slide in here. I'm ready to bury them like multiple times a week at this point.

You talk to me on any other day I could be one way or another. Then they go out and they beat the thunder. And it's just like, all right. I think fashion. Yes. I guess there's still life here. I don't know why. Do you think Jimmy, if we're presuming that the price is probably like contracts,

but even then it's like it's Wiggins and probably some other guys. So to me, I feel like the Warriors should be a Levine team. Even though I guess his timeline is slightly different from Jimmies because Jimmy's is already on the staff and Draymond timeline, just age wise and even contract wise. But I just think Levine so easily slots into the traditional clay role that his role is like waiting for him to walk into on Golden State, right? And so that's why I think they should be a Levine team. They should be the ones desperate enough because even after last night, they're 23 and 23, guys. Yeah. This is a middling operation.

And I think Zach Levine would be a crazy injection, like by far. the best offensive player Steph has played with since KD. Not even close, okay? And so, because you got to remember, KD's last year coincided with all the clay injuries. Right. So Steph hasn't played with a guy of this caliber since 2019. Prime pool?

Prime pool. Listen, we all were members of the pool party, but give me a break. We're not talking about peak Playboy Mansion here, guys. Cat guy. Big cat guy, Jordan. Oh, yeah. about a YMCA pool. Why, did you see that?

What? Jordan Poole, number one cat guy in the NBA. You should love this guy. Number one, who guy? Cat guy. Oh, word. I didn't know that. Shout to Candice Buckner for that story

in the Washington Post. Tremendous stuff. It was an excellent story. I think the Warriors should be in on Levine. The fit is just so obvious in what they need in terms of the shooting and the one-on-one creation. I have to get it twisted. Jimmy and Dreveenie and,

Raymond on the same team. Popcorn ready. Okay. Playing against Memphis in a playoff series. I'm there for that. But I think Levine is just a cleaner fit. Here's the problem with Levine, and it's a psychological one for the Warriors.

They rebuffed the potential to trade for Zach Levine for much, much less than they would have to now. And can you now come back to those conversations and talk yourself into, am I willing to pay even more for the player that I didn't think was good enough a year ago? That's a hard, it's a hard realization to come to even if it's true. And frankly, even if Zach Levine has played well enough to justify it. Listen, you could always go back.

You know, you've fallen apart a little bit. Yeah. You could always send that text, 11 o'clock at night, be like, hey, how are you? You're really making, you're really fitting Waz's description of you, I have to say. just falling right in line. I do like this Levine Jimmy binary, though, we've kind of set up here in the Maryland versus Jackie sort of fashion. I think Waz is right.

I think Levine is the better fit. But if I'm the Warriors, I probably want Jimmy more assuming that I can get him at a discount because my big plan is to make a huge splash in the summer or maybe next trade deadline. Like I think if you're going to play it safe with the Warriors, and it sounds like that was their thinking, or at least that was the messaging from their business. biggest principles, you want to save your powder in order to jump on a Fox level talent or the next guy like that down the road. I'm not disrupting that. If it's like two picks for Zach Levine, if it's one pretty juicy pick that's going to encumber like how I'm going to deal picks in

the future just based on the stepping in rule. I'm not going to do that. And so like I like Jimmy as a fit as like a short term stop cap. But beyond that, not so. Well, are you giving Jimmy his two years after the next year? Hopefully not. No. If I'm Golden State, no. So you're not in the Jimmy business then. I guess not.

One has to beget the other. Yeah. Are there any other teams that could use either of these guys that you guys are thinking of? I think, you know, Jimmy Butler is in the Sun's conversation perpetually. I think the Suns should probably be operating in the Zach Levine conversation as well. Like, whatever you think of Bradley Beal and his limitations and his injury concerns, like Zach Levine is just a better version of the same player. And if you're already operating as if the world will not exist past 2026,

like what are you worried about with Zach Levine at this point? So I think, more of a beel issue though, right? More of a beel issue and there's been some reports that he's not interested in going to Chicago. Fair enough. I think from Fred Katz. From Fred Katz of the athletic. Absolutely. That's a problem.

And it's one that you have to navigate with all these Beal conversations because he has an unusual amount of power because of his no trade clause in dictating the course of action here. So it would have to be some kind of three-team, four-team kind of deal where Brad Beale goes somewhere else that he's more open to and Zach Levine becomes a Phoenix Sun. But I think Levine could make sense for them in the same ways that they thought Brad Beale could. But ultimately, Zach Levine is the same thing, just a much, much better shooter at this point, among other aspects. I think we're going to get to after the deadline at like 12.01 p.m. Pacific on Thursday. And the sons are going to look exactly the same. Seems very possible.

And they're going to deserve it because they traded voluntarily for Bradley Bill. on a $50 million a year contract with no trade clause. You deserve your, your, your, your, your, plight right now. That was insane. I will say the no trade clause is something that was flagged at the moment the sun's traded for him. They're like, this could actually be a huge problem.

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Because I have two other questions I have down here. Kind of like predicting the future. Let's get our hourglass out here. Who's going to make the move, number one, that no one saw coming? So by definition, it would have to be a team that everybody thinks is perfectly fine.

Yep. And so my pick is the Cavs. Don't ask me what that move is. But in order to fulfill the question, it literally has to be a team that everybody's like, no, your season is going, way better than you expected.

And so you probably shouldn't do anything. And if they were bold, then I've said this before. If they had balls, they'd be in the Jimmy conversation too. But, you know, that would involve Garland, who, you know, let's face it, was crying about his role in the off-season, get his ass to Miami, you know, you get to be the man over there, whatever. And I do think Jimmy makes them a more formidable playoff. proposition than anybody else.

But they're not going to do it. But I think they should be the team that blindsides everybody and makes a really bold move for their postseason future. I like how the conversation around the 38 and 9 Cavs became. They don't have the balls to make the big dick swinging trade that they need to for Jimmy Butler. I don't know. Don't get me wrong. The Cavs are not a perfect team.

They could use a dose of what Jimmy Butler has to offer. Very, very hard to break up a core. in that significant a way in a season like this one. So the caddice, I think, could make some interesting deals, but probably more on the periphery. And that's why for me, if we're talking about moves that no one saw coming, we have to talk about the Thunder,

a team that just has more options than any other team out there. I don't see it being a huge deal, but I think we're all talking about, oh, will the Thunder get Cam Johnson? And ultimately, I think they're going to maybe make a swing for somebody completely unexpected. See, the Thunder are the answer to Varrier's last question.

That's right. I have them as well. Who's in action is going to cause the most ire? You think they're going to cause ire? The thunder, you heard it here first. Listen to me now, y'all. The thunder are going to lose way sooner than people like Rob think they are. In the playoffs. In the playoffs.

Yeah. And when that happens, people like me are going to be like, you should have done something at the deadline. But I think, you know, I think that I think Prusty, by the way, who obviously doesn't need to listen to idiots like us, the guy clearly knows what the hell he's doing. I think he's operating on some all short deals. When I do pay a guy who is in chat, J-dub, or Shea,

it's a three-year deal like Hartinstein. It's, you know, a shorter-term extension like Caruso. And then the rest of it, I'm going to draft well and have young guys on cheap deals being my role players. I don't think they're letting go of any of those draft picks because their ownership is too cheap to ever pay more. than three of these max guys that they have on the roster. So eventually J. Dub and Chet are going to get their max contracts,

and they're going to have to fill the roster with cheaper deals because they're never going to come near nobody's second apron or anything close to that. And so that's why I don't think they're going to make a move. They need those picks to sort of supplant these guys when, you know, some of these other role players on a team that everybody loves in a group interview and all of that, but those guys are going to want to get paid. You're going to have to move on. You're going to have to move on.

I'm turning it into a bit. Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to step on your bit, wise. I'm sorry. And that's why I don't think they're going to make a move. And I'm telling y'all, I get it. I love what they're doing in the regular season. I think they're going to come short

of where everybody's expectations, which is finals. I can see them not making a conference finals, y'all. Sure. You know what I mean? And people are going to be like, why the hell didn't they go all out? to make this team way better than it already is. I want to clarify, I don't think they're going to go all out. I think the Thunder are going to do something unexpected.

Not unlike last year when we were together at the deadline. They're like, oh, the Thunder traded for Gordon Hayward out of thin air. And I'll take your point overall philosophically about the picks was. I agree that that's the way the Thunder seem to be operating. And what's important to them is keeping the picks to bring young talent in on a cost-controlled basis. They have three additional first-round picks this year. at a certain point you just can't roster all these guys and so there are going to have to be trades that need to be made

whether it's now or in the offseason to consolidate some of that what happened to your guy on that team by the way the Belgian guy Valify Leon's don't don't even worry about it he's not on the roster did he get recut I think he got supplanted by Brandon Clarkson oh that's tough Carlson sorry we hate to hear it

okay so he's playing for the It's as things are progressing as expected. Okay. He's going to eventually make it to the big club. Yeah. Last night against Golden State was very troublesome because exactly this type of scenario you worry about with the thunder where it's like, oh, they're not hitting their threes, which means that they had to play Isaiah Joe Moore, but then he's going under on a Steph Curry

three in a crunch time situation. Like, that's the sort of cycling that I just don't want from my bulletproof number one contender, which is where I had them last week. And so I want them to do more. I think they could use a little bit more ball handling juice in the mix there. I think, frankly, they need someone to just, like, soak up a lot of the Alex Caruso mess because that guy's not shooting well. He's not even shooting the ball.

And so they have the capital to keep Caruso and yet have someone who just does the job better. That would be great. I also think like a Cam Johnson as was the cat guy comes into play here. Cam Johnson, another guy. Oh, I think we would we would love to see there. They need something. I just want to see something, but I don't think it's going to happen. Also, just cynically, and if you're Sam Presti, I don't have to do anything.

You don't. My job is safe. Outside of some embarrassing first round exit, nobody's going to complain about the season we had. And then I get to say next year we're going to be even better because of internal development and blah, blah, blah. And the kids are going to be great. him like just cynically why would I place more expectations on my roster? Why would I do that to myself? Because you could win the championship.

That's it. Or I can stay hired for 30 years. I don't. He has pushed in certain situations that we probably overlook because some of the more meticulous slow builds kind of take precedent, especially these days. But like mellow, perk. There's like a lot of like all in sort of move. bold moves that like we would typically associate with Daryl Mory, who like if we're talking about

the team that's going to surprise, I have the Sixers very much with a bullet, number one there, because has there been a single deadline or Darryl Morey did absolutely nothing? Last year was like more of a mixed bag where it's like, we'll put our foot in the buddy healed water. We'll see what happens. Maybe it's something more like that. But I think you have to, if you're the Sixers, you have to start thinking about like, should I take this thing out here? Like, do I abort on Gerson, Yibiselle, who like my, be a free agent this off season. Like if I can get something for him will that help me down the road.

Like Yabu Saleh, dude, I want to see him in a good place. He deserves. That's their third best player. He should be in San Antonio. We're talking about Jeremy Fox. Like,

Yvesole, who should be having a trade demand to get to San Antonio. With all due respect, they have Charles Bassi at home. You know, they got some stuff going on. Oh, that's,

that's low, man. Yabu deserves better than that. You know that. I consider that high praise. At the same time, Philly on a four-game winning streak. They're, let's see here, two and a half games behind the Hawks for ninth.

Hawks are going to probably lose a bunch with the Jalen Johnson out for the rest of the season with that torn labrum. The Bulls, you'd assume, would start throwing guys overboard. They're going to get worse. So they're going to find themselves in the playing mix pretty quickly.

So I don't know. I think they're going to do something. I don't know which way, though. You would assume that the Bulls are going to start throwing guys overboard, but sometimes they don't. They don't. They literally don't. They literally refuse to pick a

direction. Yeah. Vouch in Golden State is the perfect middle ground trade for both teams, frankly, like you're just going to lose Vooch anyway. He's playing out of his gourd right now. Steve Kerr, he's a Vooch. Vooch is his current player if I ever saw one, dude. He loves a talented Euro. You know, why not just throw him? Where is his Vich from Balkans? I think he's a Balkans guy. Someone got really mad that I said the bonus was from the Balkans the other week, so I got to watch my European politics here. But for me, that makes sense for both teams. I think the Vooch thing has been on the board for a reason for a long time.

And it's just a matter of like, does the math line up? And more importantly, does it stand in the way of whatever grander plans the Warriors might have? And there's some very delicate math by which Vooch and Jimmy Butler could become members of the Golden State Warriors. I don't think the asset management quite entices everyone involved to make something like that happen. But it's representative of part of the issue here, which is there are interlocking. puzzle pieces across the trade trade market right now. And if you're a team like the Warriors, you're not just looking at

Vooch. You're like, can we get Vooch and another guy? Can we consolidate some of the pieces on our roster, some of the picks we have available to make multiple swings at once? Did you give your inaction team, Rob? I did not, but the Bulls, I think, are a compelling one, and that's a team. I would not be shocked to look on the other side of the deadline and see Vooch still on the roster. Zach Levine

still on the roster. Every trade candidate that we've talked about in Chicago still on the roster. Seems entirely possible to me. for me, it's a team that we often talk about this time of year, whether they make trades or not, and it's the Los Angeles Lakers. I want to rephrase slightly in that, Justin,

you prompted us about whose inaction is going to cause the most ire. I think the Lakers are going to be very active. I just don't think they're going to be active in the way that it seems like a lot of people expect them to be, and that in itself is going to turn out to feel disappointing. Like, it is theoretically possible for the Lakers to get in all sorts of trade conversations. I don't think a Miles Turner trade is coming.

I don't think a Walker Kessler trade is coming. I would love to be surprised. I have a feeling the return for the Lakers is going to be a lot more muted. And it's going to be some fine rotation level pieces a la Dorian Finney Smith. But I'm not seeing this as a team that's going to be saved within the month. It's going to be a team that marginally improves. How can they be saved? Look.

The roster is what it is. The roster is. The roster is what it is, but the Lakers do have a lot of picks at their disposal that they could move. I just don't think they're going to be moved to the effect that the Lakers diehards might want. What about Ben Simmons off the buyout market? Well, here's the problem. They actually can't participate in the buyout market because they're over the first apron. Great.

Ben Simmons trade outright. No. I mean, that, you know, closer to reality than trading for Miles Turner is, I think. But maybe I'm proven wrong. Maybe the Pacers, you know, dumped, like, completely changed course, given what their financial situation is going to look like over the next year.

Like, I understand the machinations involved. I just think there's always a lot of wishful thinking around this time of year as to what is going to salvage whatever state the Lakers season happens to be in. And I don't think this one is going to be salvaged. All right. Let's wrap it there. Guys, I just love talking trade down then with you.

I hope to do a lot of it with you guys next week. Thank you to Isaiah, on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back next week. We'll see it. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in DC. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG dashhelp.com. Call 1-888-889-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling help line, ma, or 800 327 5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 18778 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.