The Ringer NBA Show - The Dominance of the Denver Nuggets, Why Understanding Your Role as a Pro Is Essential, and Why NBA Players Love to Golf | Real Ones

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

Logan and Raja open by discussing the unique relationship between NBA players and golf and why they gravitate to the individual sport (2:00). Next, they talk about how dominant the Denver Nuggets have been during the Finals and what they’ve done to mostly shut down the Miami Heat’s offense through four games (10:00). Along the way, Raja explains why it’s essential for an NBA role player to be able to play their part and how that can not only extend their career but also enhance it (25:00). Finally, the guys close with their Real Ones of the Week (1:00:00). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome to a golf podcast unlike any other. This is Fairway Rowland on the Ringer podcast network. I am your starter. Joe House every week on Fairway Rowland. It is myself and our PGA tour correspondent on the ground, Nathan Hubbard, talking all things, professional golf, amateur golf, amateur betting, professional betting, amateur drinking, professional drinking, my birdie buddies.

If you want to hit them straight out there, please check out Fairway Rowland every week. Available on Spotify. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell, there. Real was his back, baby. Roger. How you doing, man?

Long time, no C, bud. I know. And in the time since we last saw each other, I went to the driving range. It's been a while since I played golf. golf. I had to put, I had to put my sticks up because when we had our last child, Kaya, my wife was on bed rest. And so I was responsible for the three boys, not enough time in a day to play golf and do that. So I put them down and then just never

really got back to him and then hurt my wrist and they got a little low back issue. And so, you know, life took over. I picked them back up. I picked them back up, Logan. Well, I was just at the range. I just range sessions, bro. But I've been, I, sometimes time away is a good thing. Okay. Yeah. You know? Like you got, I understand my swing a little bit better. I, I am, I'm slowed down, you know, much more than I was.

Maybe it's the, it's just age and maturity, but been hitting the ball pretty well. But good job, man. Hey, question for you. Question for you. You're a pro at this, Roger. You're a fucking pro because you just gave us our first segment of the podcast, which is the relationship between basketball players and the golf course. why is it like so i feel like basketball i feel like the relationship between basketball and golf is like predates the relationship now that basketball players now have with wine where it's just like

oh it's the cool thing that we just have a wine we're just we're here we're you know we're vibing we're going to take the napa trip every time we're in california type of shit now like it's almost cliche i feel like before that the thing was golf right it was just a thing that every baseball player just did. I'm going on the golf range. When we have the Phoenix trip, we're going to the range. When we go to, if we're popping, popping enough, we go to Georgia. We're going to go to Augusta and play some rounds.

Why is there such a relationship between golf and basketball? It's a great question. First, let me just clear one thing. I didn't go with anyone to Augusta, who was getting that invite. I want to be on their team. I need that. I want to be on. Steph Curry.

What was going? Well, yeah, I mean, okay. So with Steph's on the pod, you can, you can get him on, you can ask him to get to you to August. I got to get my game up before we go there. But, you know, it's interesting. I don't, you know, the first really famous, you know, like he plays a lot of golf guy for me was MJ. And I had an uncle that was heavy into golf. He's at Dennis.

So I got introduced to it like when I was in high school, but it was really frustrating. for me as a younger, a younger person. I don't know why for all basketball players, not all of them gravitate towards it, but the ones that do from my experience and what it did for me was, like, when younger, I couldn't stand it. I didn't have the patience.

18 holes was ridiculous. Couldn't execute the way I wanted to. And so the whole thing was just a turnoff. And then as I got a little older and older, I started to appreciate the patience that it took and the craft that you needed, the skill level that was required. And I'd still get really angry. And I was known to throw a club or break a club or something like that.

But I stayed with it. And it taught me patience. And it taught me how to let a shot go because if I was worrying about the shot that I just did not execute, I couldn't perform the one that was in front of me. And it's weird because you'd think a professional athlete, would their sport would do that for them but it wasn't that for me it was golf golf is what kind of calmed me down taught me how to be more patient even within the the the game that you're playing that day um how to let stuff kind of roll off your back a little bit better than you were able to do before

and so that's what i kind of loved about it because it just it brought out a different me when i was out there on the golf course and then generally speaking you know i take my wife with me it's just most golf days are beautiful. I mean, it's, I think it's a vibe, especially on like a day off. It's five. What?

You're out there just chilling. And so you put all those things together. And I just fell in love with it. I mean, I was, I get 36 a day when I first retired. I was easy for 36 a day. Do NBA players or specifically athletes in general

need something to keep them competitive, right? Is that like something, especially post-retirement, right, where you're not a, to go on the day-to-day basket. Like, you can't quench your thirst of competitiveness after you're, whether you're in the backstage of your career, you're not being able to like have really an effect

on winning or losing in the game, when you're in the front office. Same thing, right? That's, I'm sure that's a frustrating thing or something you have to get over when you're in a front office. Does golf kind of cure that for, for basketball players or in general players in general when they're not playing anymore? Absolutely.

And, but for me, it didn't start as that, right? because I was doing it while I was still competing at a high level. But as, as, you know, that outlet for competition disappears, golf fills the void. And it's not just the competition. It's the, you know, you've spent your entire life trying to master something. You know, for me, it was shooting a jump shot and really obsessing about how to be fractionally better at it. And can I tweak this?

And will that help me? Oh, no, it didn't. Let me go back to the drawing board. and golf satiated that that kind of need to obsess about something. And, and, you know, the competition certainly came into play after that. But the first thing was just, hey, being out on that range and like trying to, how do I hit this flop shot? I keep blading it.

Like, you know, like, how do we do this? And so I'm out there and I'm out there and I'm out there and we're working and we're working. And there's a need for that because we've dedicated our entire life to this, this kind of mastery of a shot or a move or what have you. But interestingly, like when I got when I got done playing and I'm down here in South Florida, you know, that part was there for me, right? I had a club, you know, I was playing a lot of golf. And then I got up with a group of guys that would all probably fall into the category

that you're talking about. Who was, that played like every Wednesday and it was competitive, you know, lightweight money, nothing serious, but just really for the right to talk shit. And so, you know, it was myself. It was Eddie Jones. you, Cornelius Bennett, you'd have Mike Vic would be in the group, you'd have Lawrence Taylor in the group,

you'd have anybody who is in town, like baseball, football, basketball, and they would be in this group. It'd be like 40 dudes, and we'd move around from club to club playing against each other, but that's what it was. It was just a way, like,

first of all, most of us missed the locker room. So you get an afternoon where, the camaraderie. You know, yeah, you're back in there, you're sitting at lunch, you're talking shit, you know, you're clowning, somebody for for uh you know their performance that day but real talk is competition and you get the right to talk shit until next you know next week who is the best basketball golfer you've played

the greens with and who is the worst uh the best the best and the worst let's see i don't know um i never played with step but step's step's pretty awesome um michael finley i played with was He was good. Naze Muhammad could hit him pretty well. Darren Williams. I played with Darren and Mehmet of Korb. Bro, real quick, real quick before we get to that. You mentioned Darren Williams.

One of the more underrated athletes to ever play the game. I just want to, I want to give him his flowers because he could play golf, right? Obviously, he was one at a time was one of the best point guards in the league. And then he's doing MMA, bro, like at a high level. Yeah, Darren was a, a first. physical like monster people sleep on just exactly how big he was i mean that's not a little that's not a little dude to start with right like he but he's big and he's athletic and he he he has that you know that's why like m mma would probably fill those same two voids for him right need for competition but

also what can i what can i what can i what can i dive into that's going to consume me and kind and kind of take me to that that safe place of of you know athletic mastery and so yeah Darren was dope but I play with a lot of I'm trying to think of who the best would be you put me on the spot I mean J.R. J.R. could hit the ball. I didn't play with him a lot but I played you know in Cleveland. J.R. seems like he's great on the golf course bro like he's just a great hang. He would just be a really great hang. I think J.R. generally is a great hang. Yeah. Sounded to J.R. Yeah, golf course or not. Who's the worst?

Who's the worst? Who's the worst? The worst. The worst. Did I play with any bad? Raja, just for everybody who can't see the Zoom right now, Raj's doing the thing where he knows the answer to who's the worst, but he doesn't know the story yet and to tell yet.

And he doesn't also want to, you know, doesn't want to make the block high. That's the face he's making right now. But he's still going to give us an answer. Who's the worst? It's definitely not true. I'm trying, I don't recall playing with any really bad NBA golfers because it's like... Was it you?

Was it you, Roger? I mean, it could have been. Like, if I'm saying, if I'm saying I only play with good ones, because typically with golf, unless you're in your, like, friend group, you know, your friend group can have various, like, handicaps and stuff like that, but typically in NBA locker, we ain't got a ton of time and stuff like that. So you're finding guys that kind of hit it like you hit it in and about. So it could, I mean, I guess it could.

could have been me. You know, I don't know. I was probably, yeah, it could have been me. At my best, I was probably like a 9-10, so it could have been me. Okay. All right, Roger, speaking of making shots, the Denver Nuggets and the NBA finals. I just want to, we'll just see where this conversation goes because we're in the part of the finals where we're still figuring out storylines because it's kind of been inevitable, right? We're recording this on a Monday on the morning of game five.

And, you know, the series just tells us that Denver is probably locking this up at some point, and probably locking it up tonight. But the trend that I've seen, Rajah, is just how much better the Denver Nuggets are than the field. What have the Denver Nuggets done against the Miami Heat that no other team has been able to do in your eyes throughout this postseason consistently against the Miami Heat? Well, the answer is contain their ability to make threes and, you know, stifle their ability to make threes. But it's a tough, it's a tough answer to your question because, you know, the heat are

missing threes. Like they've missed shots that they haven't missed in other series. Some of them are wide open shots. So, you know, it's hard to give Denver credit for that. but I do have to give Denver credit for the majority of the threes because it's not the majority of them that are wide open. Denver is really running and getting them off of those. Like they are,

they have made a real effort after game two to be locked in and getting guys like Gabe Vincent, you know, off that line, getting guys like Caleb Martin and Max Drews off the line. Duncan got a few in the last game. But even Duncan Robinson, you've seen him way more, you know, you've heard the commentators talk about,

his ability and how he's how he's kind of grown offensively and now he's able to get in the paint, right? But that's out of, you know, necessity because they're getting to him and getting them off of those threes. And so, you know, I watched last game and I was just rewatching it before we hopped on.

And there was a play that was on the, like, left side of the court. It was first half. Gabe Vincent had missed a quick three out of the corner or a quick three to start the game. But he came off a pick and roll. And this was in the mid-range area, man. This was around free throw line extended.

And Joker was in this drop coverage, right? And Bam got a nice little piece of whoever was guarding Gabe Vincent. And in the last two series, like clockwork, Gabe Vincent would either keep putting pressure on Joker and get into this little floater or just come off of that thing clean and stop and pop. Well, this time, and I rewound it twice because I was like, did I see what I thought I saw? He came off of it.

He had a little jumper. He hesitated at the jumper. Then he took another dribble, picked it up, and then still didn't shoot it and he was wide open. And so I say all that to say, Denver has created that type of atmosphere defensively where Miami at times either isn't confident or doesn't really identify that they're open

because they're so inconsistently open the way they've been in series past. Which ironically is what the Miami Heat have been doing the teams all postseason long, right? Not making, getting them out of rhythm, making them think twice about jumpers, right? We even saw that with the Boston Celtics series where, you know, the Celtics are getting wide open jumpers, but they're hesitating. Now it's Miami that's the team that's consistently hesitating.

And also from what I've seen, Jimmy Butler is just gassed. You know, like he's playing like a guy that has has willed his team to this point, and it's not enough. It's interesting. I do want to talk about Denver in a second, but I want to talk about Miami right now. And it's something that I've been thinking about throughout this finals from, it's an interesting. interesting double ed shorts at the Miami Heat are experiencing right now because obviously they've gotten all the success. But this finals has shown the glaring holes that they have in terms of depth and also in terms of just talent in general, right? Like they do need to upgrade. How should

they go about this offseason where they did overachieve in a lot of ways? But I think the glaring things are there and they were not a good basketball team throughout this season and just got on a run, where do they go from here? Honestly, win or lose? I don't think they're winning this series by any chance. They don't have a chance of doing that. But how do they approach this offseason where they had a great year, but they are not the talent level and the, the, the, it's not, I don't know if it's going to work the way it did next year, the way it has this year. Well, let me start by kind of taking a step back and talking about what Denver did before I talk about what Miami needs to do. Like, Denver,

has been pretty committed. You talked about Jimmy Butler to not come into double Jimmy Butler, right? For the most part, they're able to keep decent length on him. Even Jamal Murray is a pretty big guard. And they're going to kind of live with what Jimmy does, like whether he's gassed or the length is affecting him or whatever that looks like. They've said, you're not going to catch us in these double situations where now when you spray the ball around the court, we can't get to those shooters, right? So boom, Jimmy, kind of do what you do. Like we'll roll the dice. Bam, we're going to be in this drop coverage every time you set the pick or or you know dhos joker's been up a little bit more but essentially they're going to let bam play in the middle of the floor you know and he's he's been able to

score 20 a game or so but you know like that that's not enough you need the supplementation of all these guys shooting the ball and for the most part Denver has said we're not going to let you do that we're going to stay home as best we can run these guys off as shit and jimmy and bam you know if if you can like go ahead let's let's let's see it let's let's see if you can beat us, right? Now, I say that because what the heater missing in that is another dude who can really make plays. And I'm not taking anything away from Max Truce and Gabe Vincent and, you know, Caleb Martin and Duncan and even Kyle Lowry, all of them made plays, you know, over the course of these playoffs. But I don't think any of them are primary playmakers consistently.

Like, that's not a knock. Like, they're not primary. Like you see Caleb Martin, like you see he had a great series. He looked like the best player on the floor at times against the Celtics. And you're just like that's, we talk about what separates stars and role players and so on and so forth. It's the ability to do that consistently. And so what the heater missing in that is another dude. And guess where he is? Where is he, Roger?

He's on their bench. He's heard. It's Tyler Hero. Tyler Hero. Right. And so. I mean, yeah. And also like Victor Oladipo, primary play can be a primary playmaker.

when fully healthy. True. But I think in terms of the way the heater looking at it, which brings me to the answer to your question is, like, we're not that far off. If we have another dude out there that can primary, like, playmake and put some of these other pieces that have had great playoff runs, but to some degree add a character for the stretches they were doing it,

it puts them back in their comfortable roles. And it makes us a deeper team, a better score, team, you know, and a harder to defend team. And so when you ask me what the heat need to do, I mean, sure, I think, you know, anytime you can get, you know, more athletic, with quality, you know, wing depth and, and all of the things that are cliche in the NBA, yeah, you go out and you go out and do that. But I think if you're telling me you have Jimmy, Tyler is going to continue to take the next step, which everyone, I guess, would think he should do. to evolve, as long as you're kind of shoring up that bench and stuff, I don't know that you

need to make any drastic changes because part of what you're missing, a big part of what you're missing is sitting right there anyway. So, you know, kids really love to watch the finals, Roger, you know, and kind of get inspiration. And I just imagine there's a kid out there. Imagine there's a kid out there watching the Denver Nuggets, specifically watching the jokes, specifically watching the Joker, right? But there's also a kid out there that's probably watching Aaron Gordon ball out. What lesson do you want that kid to take away

from Aaron Gordon's performance during these NBA finals and throughout the postseason? The lesson is that if you want to play on high-level teams and have shots to win championships, sacrifices sometimes have to be made. I can't guarantee you that you have to make the sacrifice.

Like you might be the breadwinning offensive player and get to have the ball in your hands and do all of that and that's great. But more often than not, sacrifices are going to have to be made if you want to play at the highest level and have a chance to win championships because you're going to be playing with more talent and as more talent creeps into this delicate balance of a chemistry like experiment, people have to give up a little bit of what they did in other situations,

you know, that weren't necessarily winning situations to accommodate this talent, to find the best, you know, recipe to success. And so I think Aaron Gordon is a great example of a dude that came into the league. He wasn't in the most winning situation in Orlando, no, but he certainly could score the ball, like whenever, you know, he needed to and had great years scoring the ball. But now he's in a place where he's not the primary focus offensively, and they're asking him to defend his ass off. They're asking him to have great energy. They're asking him to board the shit out of it. And then, and then be a score. And he's just

bought into the role in a way that championship teams need people to buy into those types of roles. And so I think it's a great example. I talk to my sons about it all the time. I talk to the teams that I coach about it all the time. Like, look, I get it. Mom and Dad want everybody's mom and dad wants them to be the A1 offensive guy. It's fucking unrealistic. It's just unrealistic. Like, I don't know what to tell you.

This is a team sport. So everyone's going to have a specific role on this team. It becomes up to you to figure out whether or not that role is something you're interested in playing or not. And in some instances, you can grow out of that role with continued work. and dedication to the craft. But like, as it is right now, this is what we look like as a team. This is how I see you fitting in.

This is how you can help us win games. Do you want to win games or not? And a lot of times, I'm going to keep it a buck, Logan. And now I'm raining and raving. Let's get it. Let's get it. Yeah. Far too often in our AAU culture,

I get kids all the time that come from programs. We beat them by 30 over and over and over again. But they score 25. So they're good players. They're good players. So mom or dad will be like, hey, how can we be down? And I'm like, okay, well, you know, like bring him to practice. Let's see how he fits.

Like, let's see. I don't do tryouts. Let's see what this work looks like. You get the kid in a gym. And the kid has been playing on bad teams for so long, scoring the ball, and being taught that nothing else matters that he don't care about winning anymore. It's not a priority. It's not a priority to really gifted players.

So they come into your gym and you can tell that they don't give a shit about whether or not their team wins in this game that you've put together in this competition that they're that they are in. They just care whether they're getting off in it. And I, you know, like so, I mean, I've had these where you're saying to parents, hey, listen, man, it's a good player, not putting stock into the things that are important right now. And what you realize is a lot of times it's not, it could be coming from the kids, but in a lot of instances is coming from the parents. And I think it's a problem. I know we're talking about NBA basketball. Aaron Gordon is a great example of how not to be like that. But I see that far too often in our subcultures

and our development platforms for kids in the basketball space of forgetting about what is important, which is winning. What's the biggest difference between, what's the difference between a basketball player and a winner from what you've seen? Well, look, first of all, let me say this. A skill development.

Skill development is a thing too, because I'm online and I see people and skill development guys and they're all like, hey, man, got to develop your skills. It's better to play on a bad team and develop those skills than play on a good team. And like, look, man, I personally don't subscribe to that bullshit. I don't. Like, I don't ever think it's better to play on a bad fucking team so you can get your numbers off and learn how to get hit in the fucking head every night. Like, I think that's stupid.

I think you can learn how to lose just like you can learn how to be a winner. And I see it all the time. And so there are really skilled players that can go out there and get you 30 points. But you drop him into a game on a team like our eighth grade team where we got a bunch of mugs that can get you 30 points. But none of them are going to have more than 12 because we are going to share the ball. As soon as I see a secondary defender in my peripheral, I'm off the ball. Like you don't have to beat him and the next defender that's waiting for you. Just move the ball and trust that that guy is going to make the right play, either for himself or the next guy.

Or how about this? maybe you at the end of the day. But that's the difference. The kid that won't do that is a, he's a talented player. I don't put them in good basketball player because it ain't an individual. This is not one-on-one competition, bro.

It's interesting because I even think of, even to bring it back to Aaron Gordon, right? This guy was, you know, he's from around here. He's from San Jose. And then went to, then was a McDonald's All-American, right? Played one year at Arizona. A lot of success to start his basketball life.

then goes to Orlando. And it's the primary score. I've seen it, but his teams weren't winning. What's the transition like? Because I feel like this can go one or two ways, right? Especially when you're in those positions. You sign the contract, again, like you sign whatever your deal is, and then you just wind up being irrelevant on a team like, no shade to Orlando,

but they haven't been relevant in the last few years, no matter what, right? No matter how you slice it. You sign a deal, you stay with this team, and you continue to be a 30, to 42 win team. Or you can go the Aaron Gordon route, which is, you know, this is run its course. I want to win. Like, I can't do another rebuild.

I want to win. And I feel like there's a transition there because there's a lot of players, let's be honest, man. Not every player is a top 10 player, even if you get drafted as a top 10 player in the draft. That doesn't mean you're going to be a top 10 player in the league. But I feel like there's a transition period and players get messed up and lost in the sauce here

because they have this identity crisis when they get traded to a team where they're not going to have an extended role. And they have to go and be a really, really good player. It's like the Andre Iguodala role on a team where you are a great skilled player and your talent is there. But your talent has to mesh with a greater team. I feel like that's what Aaron Gordon is done. But what's that transition like? Because I'm sure you've seen it from the front office to even just playing alongside those guys where guys get an identity crisis and they don't go the Aaron Gordon route. They're like, well, what about minds?

What about minds? What is that transition like? Never having had, never having have had to make that transition. It's really hard for me to tell you what goes into the psyche of a guy having to do that. I was always a role player. Ever since I left college and the CBA, it was very clear to me that I was going to play a role on your team. What role that was was going to be probably determined, you know, in, in, training camp and by what other talent we had on the team, but I knew it wasn't going to be my

team. You know what I mean? So, like, that was never a misconception of mine. I didn't have to deal with that. Now, looking at players who have had to do it, I really think what it comes down to is, is, and it's simple, and it's the same thing I'm talking about. It's human nature. Like, what, like, what is most important to you? What is the most important thing to you? Is it, is it, is it, Is it you? Is it is it the vanity? Like, hey, man, I'm nice. Like, I need everybody to know I'm nice. I can do that. Is it winning? Is it making money? Like, there are a lot of things that go into being a professional basketball player. Because I'll sit here and tell you, Logan. Matter of fact, they sold me for two years. Well, my first year in Philly was the only thing I could do was play defense, right? Like, I wasn't going to score the ball. My next year in Philly, I'm not saying that I could have scored it at all. a high level, but I could get a couple points, but I'm playing on a team where, you know, the way it's built, most of our jobs is to defend. Do you know what I'm saying? And I didn't play much that year anyway. Then I go to Dallas and I have Dirk Nowitzky, Steve Nash, Michael Finley,

Nick Van Exel, what was, like my job's not going to be to score the ball. Your job's going to be to defend and stuff like that. And so I bought into that. But guess what? Ain't nobody paying you for that? That's the reality of that shit. Ain't nobody paying you for that. The motherfuckers are looking at you like middle. them, bro. Come on here and defend two. And I'm like, well, but you keep telling me to buy into this role. Like, you know, so roles have to be rewarded. Like, if someone's playing that role to a team, you got to be rewarded. So they ain't rewarding you for that. So it wasn't only until I scored some points in Utah that somebody said, hey, man, like, take this little bit of bread. Take that. You know what I

mean? Because, and so I'm like, okay, it becomes about scoring the points. But, but anyway, I digress. Like, you're, what happens is, and you've seen successes with like the Andre Godalas. And then you've seen like semi-successes, like Mello fell into this a little bit, even though they're different players. Mello, it clicked for Mello later. Right?

He had that little bit of time where he was... It took him, like, knowing that he could get banished for him to go, like, oh, I'll come up to bench. I'll play that role. That's right. It clicked for him later, but it clicked, right? Where he was like, yo, okay, I got it. I got it.

At one point, maybe I was that, but they don't see me like that. So let me figure out how I can, you know, stretch this career out. And then, like, you know, kind of like Dion Waiters, who, like, he just wasn't out. And I love Dion, but he wasn't interested in that. Like, he wanted to be primary score. You know what I mean? Like, that was his.

And on some nights he could be that, right? Where he is this guy where you're like, what the fuck? Like, he could beat a team by himself on some nights. Absolutely. Like, Dion could go crazy with the ball in his hands. not consistent enough to be the number one on a team, maybe even the number two on a, probably not the number two.

But the point is not really interested in doing the other stuff, like, and fitting in any other capacity than that. And so eventually, you know, they, they have dudes that will. How many years does it take for the league to pass you by, I think is the bigger question, right? Where, I mean, I think we're seeing that this year with Ben Simmons, right?

where because he won't go into a certain role, right, or because of whatever happened, but I think specifically also with the, there's a lot of factors in this. Exactly, that part, right? But I guess the bigger point is the league is about to pass him by, right? Because there's going to come to a point where a lot of teams just don't want to deal with that shit no more.

And or also you're not going to be in teams' future plans. How long do you have to, whether you're been, Simmons type player or, you know, like, you're Roger Bell in 1999 trying to get into the league, right, and trying to figure out its place. How much time do people have to figure it out in their way before the league is like, no, we're on to the next one, man. It's a good question.

Some of that is, some of that is, uh, is, is going to be predicated on what your contract situation looks like, like Ben Simmons. Like I haven't looked at his contract, but they're, obviously, they're contractually like, connected to him in a way that probably bears more time for him. A player like me, I come into that league with Philly. If I'm in there taking shots and doing dumb shit and whaling out, I'm going to get one more shot at it probably somewhere else. But if I go to that situation and I can't figure out how to be a productive member of that team,

and it doesn't mean that I have to be playing. But they got to be able to see in practice that I understand. You can't have coaches in practice every other day being like, man, what the fuck is wrong with it? Why is he keeping shooting that shot? Why would he break the offense and keep doing that? Like, if that happens to me in my second stint, I'm out because I'm undrafted. So like, I'm getting really one good look at it, maybe two if I fit all the physical criteria, and then I'm gone. But, you know, for some dudes, if you don't meet all the benchmarks physically and shit like that, you get warm.

look to see if, hey man, like, the only reason I would have got a second look, Logan, is because I had some success in the finals. And everybody saw it. Everybody was able to see your success, right? And everybody saw it. So they give me another look. But coming in the way I came in on a 10 day and then an extended 10 day, if I can't get right, because all these dudes talk and they're like, yo, man, this kid just doesn't

understand who he is. He doesn't understand that he's not. going to shoot nine shots a game on an NBA team maybe until his 10th year. If he he doesn't get that, I doubt I get another look at that. What about, and let's look at the other side. What about the Ben Simmons? And honestly, let's keep it a buck. How long does like the Ben Simmons and John Morantz have, right?

Where they're these super, super duper talented type players. Forever. Like they just, they have forever? Listen, it ain't forever. I mean, there's an expiration date on everything. But you come into the league as a first round draft pick, you got to prove to those motherfuckers that you can't play. Okay?

You come in as an undrafted or late second round. You got to prove to them not once, sometimes not twice, sometimes three times that you can play before they feel secure and giving you the bag. Now, that's why the heat and teams like that are really good because they can identify it early. like lock it up and develop it.

But you know, you come in the hard way. You're going to have to keep proving that you can do it. You come in the first round pick way. You go ahead to prove to them multiple times that you cannot do it. And then when you prove that you can't do it, they'll be like, well, we'll just get, you have immense talent. We'll just give you the mid level. Yeah, let's be the middle level.

We'll try to rebuild it. We'll try to rebuild it, right? Or, you know, like you're out of it. like, yo, man, we got maybe like one or two more years out of this. It's like a little two-year deal that's not going to hurt our cat, but like, fact. Yeah. Oh, man.

But listen, you're pairing. There's a lot that goes into that because I don't mean to like, like really strip it all the way down and make it sound as black and white. There's a lot of stuff that goes into that. Is he a good dude? Do you know what I mean? Like, is he a problem in a locker room? Does everybody love him?

Like, does he have a great work ethic? Like, there's, you know, there are things that go in to, to whether or not someone is going to grant you more opportunities. And on the flip side, why some dudes are out of the league, like, real quick. And you're like, what? How? He's gone? Yeah, he's an asshole. Like, he's gone.

It's so funny. And I'm not going to name names here. But it's just so funny to players that, like, and we've seen it all, right? The misunderstood players who say, oh, y'all got me all wrong. I don't know why I'm not in the league. Like, I could do it. And, like, every team that you've been on, you have caused some type of, like, eye roll. Those are the funnier ones.

I mean, I'll tell you a story towards the end of my career. Like what my situation in Utah, I talk about all the time. The way that went down, I probably cost myself two years on the end of my career, I think, roughly. But two years of being a minimum, you know, play once every five game type of guy. You know what I mean? Like I was no longer a real rotational piece. but what I did was I like my good guy image like I tarnished it by what happened in Utah right and and they did they they helped me tarnish it like I did I did it and then they just helped me they got it's your ass they were like here you go yeah like yeah get the fuck out but but um like so you know there are situations like that where a dude might be able to prolong it a little bit and be around and the reality was for me I was just in a toxic situation.

That was toxicity. Like, I thought they made me feel like I was crazy out there because I was looking around at stuff that didn't happen anywhere else and calling it out. Like, wait, does anybody else see this? And everybody out there was like, no, you're the crazy one. And I'm like, well, maybe I am. I mean, but I wasn't. Like, I was still a good dude.

Like Gordon Hayward, Gordon and I still text. Like, and Gordon was the guy that they were like, had just drafted and was bringing in to kind of be the next generation of jazz players. And I supported the shit out of, gee, that's my guy. I still text, gee, so they tried to make it out to be something that it wasn't. But what it happened was, you know, and I remember talking to one of my buddies who was a strength and condition and coach on a prospective team that was looking to bring me in. And they called me and I was like waiting to fly out.

And, you know, my agent thought it was a good look. And then they were, I didn't hear from him. And so I hit him. I was like, yeah, what's happening? He was like, well, the word, the word behind closed doors is, you know, you might not, you might be too good at this point to accept the role that we have for you. You know what I mean? And I'm like, I wasn't at that place.

I knew who I was. But that was what I had done, like the mess that I had made in Utah. And that was now the narrative on me is that I wasn't going to come in there and be a good soldier and come off the bench and stuff like that, you know? And so sometimes that affects people's ability to stay around the league too. that's so wild man because like I mean I could go the politics way of all those things

but that wouldn't like you could say all the politics of it wasn't on your side and it wasn't but I guess the question I had is and I think you kind of answered it was how many more years can being a good guy

get you in the NBA right like how many more I guess that's the question right the Jawan Howard question of like you know I mean the heat have a lot of these guys You don't know, Haslam. Like, we just need guys in there.

How much of being a good, how many more years can that get you in your career? See, today's NBA with the new, you know, with the structure of contracts and all of that stuff and me not having been in it. Like, I'm not sure. But when I played, right, because, you know, those minimums were more throwaways and stuff like that. I mean, being a good dude could extend you three, four years. like especially if you were a successful like a lot of times bigs like joan howard was was a really great player and he was a big and he was a great dude like you got all those things going for you i mean that that shit could ride you out for five years like for for somebody like me i think i could

have got two years worth a good dude stuff like on the end of that just come in work my tail off show the younger kids you know the ropes um be a good family guy like those type of things I think could have extended me to maybe maybe three years um you know and and i i've said multiple times i think that's part of the problem in the league now is not enough of those dudes around i i you know not enough not enough age in a lot of these locker rooms not enough perspective in a lot of these locker rooms so you got young kids you know at 18 years old coming into being professional basketball players and all that entails and not having anybody really in that locker room with eight years of experience that can say, hey, bro, listen, hold, chill out.

Let's have a talk. Let's go to dinner tonight, man. Hey, why don't you come over? And like Gordon Hayward and Jeremy Evans and those dudes when they were in Utah, like, I'd have him in my son's birthday parties. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, come hang out, dog. So you can see, like, see what this looks like.

So you're not just caught up in the illusion. of what it is. Yeah. What is the illusion that these young players have versus what reality is? Like, what do they think it is? Because I hear stories of even,

you know, I'm not going to say name names right now, but like there's young dudes in this league right now who haven't done anything and is acting like, you know, they out here and they're the most popping thing on earth. Like, you see that a lot behind the scenes. You see that a lot of the summer league.

You know what I mean? A lot of people front and like they're, they got it already. What is the perception versus the reality? well the perception is like I'm in a league I play in the league you know so like you know I'm about to cop this this whatever whip um I got the Gucci and the Louis bags ready to go like this is when I played like I don't know what the bag I don't know what the bags are now like do you know what I mean like what they are um you know I got to get I got to get this jewelry um and then I'm out like

bottles whatever you know like we're partying dog we're where we need to be and I live that illusion. I lived it. Shout out. Shout out all-star weekend. No, I lived it. No, no. Like, that shit got me right out the league, right to Spain. Because the reality of it is getting in and, and developing. Like, developing as a person, you know, developing as a player, you know, and developing as a, as a teammate and a part of an organization that is,

in their minds, like integral to the success of the organization so that you can have some longevity there, right? And, you know, that means coming in and learning how to be a professional, man. That means being where you're supposed to be on time. That means taking care of your body in a way that allows it to produce for you, you know, the way it should. That means making sure that you're, you know, studying that film and have a full grasp and understanding of not only your offense and defense, but what the other team is going to do to you, given the opportunity to have that at your fingertips, you know? That means taking care of your bread, learning how to put it away and put it with people who you trust so that it can can work for you. And it's not, you're not looking down at it in two years saying, well, what the fuck?

I thought I had, I had that. That's how much I got in there. Like, you know, it's all of these things go. It's about, you know, in the summers figuring out, hey, man, what did I not do great in this first year, second year? What do I need to be better at? Let me go find the best possible resource I can find to help me. me do that. Where are you going to be? I'm either flying you to me or I'm coming to you, but this is how I'm going to get better. I've targeted it, and this is my focus. So when I come

back next year, I'm something different. I'm going to maintain all the good shit, but I'm coming back with, you know, some of these areas tightened up. And that's how you continue to develop, and that's how you become a pro. Do you know what I mean? Like, too many of these dudes, it's not about their profession. You know what I'm saying? Like, not, I mean, the stars are stars and they're professionals, but some of the fringe guys like myself, you know, You know, if you don't learn. Or even the guys that have star aspirations, right, Raj? Because I think about this all the time, right?

Where I see these young dudes or some of these young guys in the league, right, who say like, yo, man, Cobb is my favorite player of all time. LeBron is my favorite player of all time. Like, go down to Kevin Durant is my favorite player of all time. Steph Curry is my favorite player of all time. And I don't think that they, like, see the other side of that of like, you know, man, these dudes that you talk about are about. obsessed with the game in a way that you are not at this point. You're just really good at it right now.

But like there's another side of it where like they're watching film and they're like, they know everything that you're about to do before you do it, right? Because they're watching all of these things and they're trying to get better. Like you, you, if you hear like, I'm not, again, not going to say name names, but like if you hear like, if you tell me like off camera like a certain name and you hear so many stories about these people like, no, they're not serious. They're not ready for this. They're not serious. They're thinking about everything else that comes with the game that has nothing to do with what's actually going on. Nothing to do what was actually going to get them to another level over the summertime. And, you know, sometimes it's

frustrated because you see all the talent in some of these young kids. And then it's like, well, damn. Because if you see Kobe, right, or you see some of these people, and we talked about it earlier where, like, with AAU guys, sometimes I just want to tell them, like, the ones that are scoring like 25, 30 a game and they're losing by 30. And they say to their favorite player all time is Kobe or whatever. It's like, no, man, Cobb actually could tell you, can you tell me what an offensive set is? And can you tell me what the defense is trying to do with this trap and how you got to, you got to, how you have to get out of, you see elevators coming, how are you going to defend that, right? This is what the innate thing that these stars that you idolize know already to a T.

and that's something that I kind of want to tell these talented kids that have the talent to be on the level of the next generation, but they just don't have the winning wherewithal because winning to them is scoring 30 and losing by 30. I mean, hopefully you get your hands on a bunch of them and you can tell them, man. I try to do it with the limited access to these kids that I have, but I think you're right.

And I would take it a step further as like, you know, Kobe is the exception to the rule. KD is the exception to any rule. So while I'm not telling you not to like idolize them and try to take pieces away from their game and stuff like that, the majority of kids aren't going to be given a ball like Kobe was and say, hey, go score 81 points. Not only are they not going to have the platform to do it

because a coach isn't going to say, hey, this is, but they don't have the gifts to be able to do that. Do you know what I'm saying? And so, like, you know,

it's, it's dangerous. Like, I try to tell kids all the time, man, you're, look, be able to score the ball,

be able to do all those things. And this is what I think people miss about idolizing the cobies of the world and stuff like that. Because I think we actually don't do Kobe. We don't do those types of players justice when we talk about. them. We highlight all of their abilities offensively and how they could get a bucket and how great

and proficient they are offensively. And you don't talk about all of the other shit that they're great at defensively, rebounding, ability to help teammates get better situationally if they need to, like all of those things. So you wind up with a kid that is just focused on trying to light your ass up anytime he can get the ball. And then I'm saying like, well, what else do you do? Like, what else do you do? If I got a motherfucker that does that better than you, and I'm telling you that's not your job now, what else do you do?

And too many of these little jokers can't answer that question. They're like, what? No. Yeah. Like, what? It was interesting. I was talking to Andre Aguadala, like, last year. And I was asking him, I was doing a story.

It's out some of this piece that I did called The Warriors Want More, makes you check that out on the ringer. But I was doing a, but I was talking to Andre just about like watching the Bulls growing up. Because he was, he's from Springfield, Illinois. We got to get Andre on the pot. This is basically for me to tell, Andre Aguadal and all your people that listen, stop cadden and come on the pie because you've been saying like pump bacon with the pump forward, the point forward shit.

Like, yeah, but come on it. Come on next week. Stop cadden, bro. Don't tell me if you're coming if you ain't coming, bro. Sorry. But anyway, I was talking to him on the, talking to him. And he was saying basically when he was growing up, he would watch WGN a lot. If you guys don't know what WGN is, it's the local sports station in Chicago that will play Bulls games.

And it would also play Bulls games. I used to get all my Cubs games on WGN, baby. Yeah, it would be a national, it would be on national cable channels, but it'd be a local to Chicago, right? But the Bulls would play a lot of games on WGN. But what he said was that really like kind of tripped me out. He was like, yeah, man, like I would, I would watch Jordan and stuff, but I would actually watch like Steve Kerr and like Tony Cooch and, you know, Scotty Pippen to see how they would actually get their shots alongside Jordan. Right. Like I wasn't necessarily watching Jordan play.

He was, he was great. But I would watch like the other players to see how they got their buckets. And I'm like, that was just so rare, right? And like, I wish, I wish, like, you know, we got to teach the youth. And I'm washed right now. I feel like I'm just getting to this far. But like, that's going to keep you more longevity in the league, right? Because I think people, another example of this, and this is going to bring tears to your eyes, Raja.

A great example of a superstar playing within his role. And we doesn't get a lot of flowers for this, but is one Russell Westbrook. We see Russell Westbrook and the triple doubles and stuff, but we also forget 2012 in London, where they said, no, Russ, fuck all that other stuff. We know you're a franchise star. go guard the best player in the world. Go play him. Don't worry about shit else.

And go guard and shut down the best players in the world on the other team. You know what Russell Westbrook did? He went and did that shit. He went to shut down the best players in the world because Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade and LeBron James and Kevin Durant and all these players were on the team. And Russell Westbrook, who was a top 75 player all time, was like, no, all right, I'm going to go shut down the best players in the world. And I think that's what we need.

That's what a superstar really is. It's not like I'm going to score 25 points and get you one assist and I'm going to be minus 75 from the floor. But I got you 25 points and we lost by 30, right? That's, I think, what is the key to sticking into this league that we're in right now. You know what it all comes down to? I think it's a great point. I mean, I figured that out at a young age, man. I didn't dunk until I was late in my 10th grade year.

what the hell do I look like trying to be like Michael Jordan? Like that's never going to be me. Like that, I mean, I might as well, I'm cutting out on that right now. Also, we know who the Michael Jordans are before, like early. We knew LeBron was LeBron at 13. We knew Kobe was Kobe at like 14 years old because he was on the AAU circuit. We knew this, right? So how are you going to fit into your role when you get there?

Well, yeah, I mean, fair. But even in my hopes, like in my wildest fantasies that I would turn into it at one point, Like I physically don't move like that. So ain't no way that I'm going to be able to replicate that. But I think it's interesting because, you know, we talked prepot. I was up in Columbus, Ohio. I took Dio up to the Ohio State Camp. And I want to draw a parallel between these two things because it's just what it boils down to for me.

What you're talking about ultimately when Russ decides that he's going to take this role, it's competent competitors. What do I need to do to win? What can I do and what can I add to this equation to make it a winning recipe? I don't give it. All that be damned. My ego, personal goals, agenda, fans, family, fuck all of that. What can I do to help this team win?

That's a competitor. When you strip it down and somebody says, yo, I'll give all of that up. I just want to win. You've got an apex ultimate competitor. And so Dia is sitting in an office. I'm sitting there with the quarterback coach. And he says there are three things that have to be goals for you

if you want to play here. Any quarterback that wants to play here. You've got to want to win a national championship. You've got to want to win a Heisman. And you've got to want to be the number one draft pick overall in the NFL. And so we all listened to that, right? We went out, Dia went to camp,

and we're driving later in the day. And Dia is talking to me. I said, and he mentioned it. And I said, Dee, this is good, man. I was like because, you know, you probably heard a lot of stuff, but let me help you distill this. I was like, because, you know, you hear it from me a lot. And I know I'm dad and everything, but it could get a little old for you, but it's great that you hear it from other people. But in case you didn't understand what he's saying, let me, let me just explain this. What he's saying is,

they want only the most competitive people, the ultimate competitors. They, if, if there's anything that is in you that isn't willing to bite off your arm to achieve one of those things or do whatever you have within your soul and your power and your world to achieve one of those goals, they can't, they don't have room for you. I was like, and that and it's good for kids to understand that because like, dog, you have to be an ultimate competitor. It has to be about winning. Sure, we've got to develop. Sure, we got to develop and get better in all of that. But at the end of the day, you want competitors. You want people that will, will, will do whatever they can physically and humanly do to achieve that goal, which is winning. And I thought it was really cool

that the, that coach Dennis said it to Dee. And I thought it was even more cool that I could have that moment with him in a car where, where he's like, he's like, yeah. And I said, look, Dee, I was like, look, as a young, as a young player, like, I get it. Like, sometimes, you know, things happen and so on and so forth and and um you know you're trying to figure out in your brain like hey man like you know what's the right thing to do in this situation like how do how do i manage like you know being a good teammate versus you know trying to win and i said in that moment and in those moments it's only one answer what do we need to do to win like what what do we need to do to win how can i how can I get us to that point?

And if you can answer that question, like every time you leave the field or every time you leave the court, like I did everything. And every one of those fucking moments, I was true to winning. Like I did what I needed to do and I told who I needed to tell

and I held myself to the standard all in the best effort to win a game. If you could do that, you're straight, you're good. It's just interesting because like, the common thread for me at least or that I've seen from people that are successful you know, like people that are consistently successful.

I'm not even talking about sports. I am talking about sports, but it's a greater message for life that I've learned from this. You can't be all the way up and down with that, right? If you're going to be a consistent winner, it is a routine. It is, it is, it's not, you know, I scored 45 one game and then I scored zero to next. It can't, and I go for a week without scoring or whatever, right? That's just one example. But I remember I was talking to, I was talking to Steph.

And the first story I did last year on him. And one of the things that I got from it, and that one of the things that he said was, it's like, he's steady. He's just steady Eddie, right? Just at this one thing. We are taught to be these beams where we have to go ascend, descend, descend, like all the way up. Like one of those, we had this, I don't know if you had this.

and where you're from, Ra. But at this abusement park, we had this thing called Drop Zone at Great America, right? Where it's one of those things where you go up and you fall all the way back down, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Where you just drop. That's typically how it is for, you know,

young guys who don't make it in the league, right? They go suit all the way and then they drop down, right? What you really want is you just want the steady all the way of sin because you're going to, that's how you stay into the league, right? You stay with these great habits. until your career is over and your body can't function anymore. But she'll always be great at whatever you do

because you work hard and you have that competitive streak. And that's what I think that's what you were telling Dia, right? Like where you just got to be steady with this competitiveness. And that's where you'll get the success that you get, right? All of that was perfectly put. And it relates to everything.

Like you think about like invest in money and stock markets and stuff like that. Like volatility is scary, bro. You want steady growth. growth. You know what I mean? Like, you want steady growth, bro. You don't, you know, you know. But yeah. And so real talk, what I just try to tell, what I had, I started the pod with it at some point. I went on a rant and I'm and I'm back to it again. And this is what I was saying to Dia was. And he and his brothers have this figured out. Their mom was a competitor. Like, I'm a competitor.

It's the way we operate in our house. It's the way I've coached teams that they've been on. even if their coach isn't talking about that, I'm always talking about that. Luckily, D is in a football program in high school that promotes that right now. You have to be a competitor. You have to be there. You have to be like clocking in every day and clocking out. Like you have to be putting the work in because there's a goal and the goal is winning. Like if you are doing everything you can to help a team win, more often than not,

You're going to be, you know, a very good version of yourself. Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you every time because there's some teams that will ask you to sacrifice some of yourself and ultimately all that you can be to play this role. And I've told you, like, depending on the team you're on, you've got to make that call. Is this a winning team? Is it worth it to me? If it's a bad shitty team, like maybe I don't want to give myself up, you know, for us to lose all these games. But that's a personal thing. But if you are always competing, always questing to be.

you know, like winning at a, you know, like if you're doing that and putting in the work on your end to do that, then you're going to be good. But that's what people want. Like that's, that's what teams are looking for. That's what I was looking for when I was in the Cleveland Caz front office. I want kids that compete. Like, I want dudes that will fight you for every inch of that. I want a dude that will run over to somebody in the, in the heat of the moment and check them for like not doing their job. You know, like, I'm good with a little bit of asshole. Now, if I see that's like a running theme and you're just a, you know, a butthead

every time I come see you, that's different. But if you could see someone make a mistake and, you know, somebody runs over there and checks him, like, yo, my man, like, you know damn well, that's your job. Let's go. We got to be better than I want that. Because I want somebody that loses themselves in competition. Like, yo, dog, I'm almost blacking out. I'm going to do whatever I need to do out here to win these games.

I'll tap back in with you when this shit is over. Yep, yep. All right. Roger's not going to be here Thursday, so we're going to do the rare Monday, real one of the week where we point out a person, agency and organization that won the week. I'm going to go first.

I'm going to go with a friend of the show, big friend of the show, Miss Sue Bird, who got her jersey retired over the weekend. You know, she was out, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was Sue Addle. all weekend up in the Pacific Northwest.

They had brunches. They had vibes. They put her number on the top of the space needle raw. It was a beautiful. It was beautiful. It was great. What a great weekend. So, you know, shout out to Sue Bird, got her jersey retired by the Seattle Storm.

Rewan of the week. Word. Well, I mean, if that's how we're doing it, then I'm going to go with one Sylvia Fowles. Mm. Who also had her jersey. retired. And she's from right around the corner. She's from Miami Edison. Also went to Gulliver Prep where my sister went for a while, LSU. A what is it? Eight-time WMBA All-Star defensive player in a year once, multiple-time champion.

So we got two WMBA players as real ones in a week for Gavin Jersey is retired. Let's get it. Go Sylvia and go Sue. Okay. So we got like a just quick housekeeping before we get out of here. Tyler Hero has been upgraded to question. questionable. Do the heat win tonight? Negative. Negative. Denver Nuggets are your 20, 23 champions.

Me and Raja will see you next week. Raja will not be on the Thursday episode, but we'll see you. We love your pal. See you next week, bud. You already know. Salt Lake, we in the building? Ah, all the shit's a. Bye!

Give me an a-a-a-a-a-a-a. Ah! Ha ha ha ha ha!