The Ringer NBA Show - The Early Tiers of the NBA | Group Chat (Ep. 330)

Episode Date: November 1, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan is joined by Justin Verrier, Haley O’Shaughnessy, and Paolo Uggetti to establish eight unique tiers of the NBA and place all 30 teams within them. Klay on Klay: The Warriors Guard on the Hidden Art and Craft of His Game, Kevin O'Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Basketball is very good. Anthony Davis will win the MVP this year The Hawks trading Donchich was a smart move What if the caps are better without LeBron Basketball is very good Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show It's group chat I'm here with Paulo Ogeddy

What's up? Justin Verrier Array And Haley O'Shaughnessy What's going on guys Today on group chat We're going to break the NBA up into tears But we're not just going to go

The Elite The Pretenders We're just going to kind of like break these, get things up into a little bit more interesting genus and fauna. I don't remember anything in middle school biology. So if you guys want to jump in here. I think Strata was the right. I think you used it. You seem like the kind of guy, Justin, if I can just jump in here.

Sure, please. Who was like probably could have been like a great chemist, but at the last second it was like, I love basketball. I was really bad at all math and sciences, actually. I'm really curious to think what you think my backup was bartender. Hold on poker. player, professional holden player, bartender. I think much behind you.

For you? Yeah. Bounty Hunter. Yeah, totally. And then you got super into journalism. Okay, so I'm here with a bounty hunter, a chemist, and a Texas holden player. And we're going to break the NBA into these tiers.

We'll start at the very, very top. And I think there's one thing that we're all grappling with 10 games into the season is the not so sudden realization that this is a league of one. and that there's one team that is playing in like a kind of different cosmos than everybody else. So let's discuss the Warriors because they are into a tier by themselves. I even think exiting last season, we were grappling with that. I think that probably if we didn't think that for one second, it was like the latter half of last season. I definitely think that we spent a long time convincing ourselves that Houston could beat them.

Yeah. I mean, that was the whole storyline last season. And I think in retrospect, when we can say this now, is like, maybe we underestimate made it how much separation the Warriors created for themselves this offseason with not only their moves but other teams lack of moves. Yeah, it does feel like there is more of a significant drop-off from one to the rest than there were last season, specifically because the Rockets aren't really a thing right now. Right, I don't think that's Golden State.

I think that's Rockets. Yeah, yeah. And having said that, though, I'm having more fun with the Warriors than I have in maybe four years. So much fun. Agreed. Like every night has been a thing, and Paolo brought this up just the other day on the site is just there seems to be almost like a new challenge to each individual player each night

and it's almost like they're passing it off and each person gets to have their showcase. They are eight and one. They've won six in a row. They have the second best point differential in the league. And you're right. Every night it seems like another Warriors player.

We haven't really even had a breakout Durant game this season. Well, the Knicks won kind of. Yeah, I guess so. He took over in like subtle ways. I think he had like what? 40 something by the end of that one. Basically giving a preview of next season when he's there all the time. Did you guys see on Twitter, like when Clay was having his game that Steph was all hype about it and was like passing in the ball?

Yeah. And that, yeah. Yeah. I thought about that too, but then afterward, afterward he had some quotes. Durant was pretty, pretty warm about it afterwards. He was like, we were definitely like looking for Clay. Right. Yeah.

This is like really all we have to do is to like read deep body language and say like, whoa. You see what he did in New York? York, you know what that means. Before we even, like, do that, I do think that it, especially because so much of the league, the past two years maybe has been about, like, the Warriors, like, we're in the league and it's like a, you know, it's like they're so good, it's boring. I think it's like, it should be fun to, like, revel in, like, how much more fun they are so far in the first few games.

Like, and I think that's a lot because of how Steph is playing. Because we, I think we can all agree. I don't know, you guys can disagree with me if you want, but like when Steph is playing at this level. He's had five threes in every game, but one, it makes the Warriors a far more appealing just from like an aesthetic standpoint. Yeah, it's kind of like when it's just on the ground, you're like, why are we spending so much money on NASA? And then when you go to the moon, you're like, oh, man, we went to the moon. Did you just watch First Man?

Watch his first man once. Yeah, that's why I feel like, you know, like reading. That's kind of weird because I feel like the Warriors are going to run into money problems and that's going to be their end too. Well, there you go. Right. So you should, I'll expect 1,500 words on how the Warriors mirror the space race. Yeah, I think that there's, there was something in Kevin's piece where he, his excellent piece where he was talking to Clay Thompson about how he does what he does. That ran on Monday.

And Clay was talking about some of the very, like, simple aspects of their offense where it's just like, I have these read react options basically at various points in the offense, as does everybody. And then what happens is I either drive or I look for a path. or I take my shot, and more often than not, Stephen Curry or Kevin Durant is open. That's unbeatable. That will win you a championship. And I think that there's something about maybe, A, knowing that they're not going to play the Cavs this season

in the finals, which is kind of exciting and liberating. And B, if they get this last title with Durant, assuming he takes off next season, I think you cement them as probably one of the two or three best teams of all time. Having said that, I do think some of the theatrics at the start of the season has kind of overshadowed the fact that they are a little bit thin on the wing.

I still think that there are some concerns there, concerns. We've got to get a concern troll. I'm the concern troll. They should probably be Russian or something. That's great. We should do it in an old Greg voice. No, but I mean, that was the big thing

coming into the season. I still think those problems exist. if injuries occur and we still don't know how Boogie is going to work his way into it. Though it seems like if anything him getting tossed from the bench the other night just put them in more of a mood and they went out and crushed. I feel like he's going to

come back and they're just going to try to make it their mission to feed him and get him like 30 point games and like I almost think that they're treating this season as like how many cool things can we do? Yeah, rather than like we're under the the cash to get to this so set some regular season.

record, or we're constantly monitoring people's minutes, and we're talking about the mental grind of playing with each other again, this seems to be for fun. They're just going to let Iguidala essentially not play until spring. Boogie's going to come back in the spring. They'll be like new signings. It's kind of neat. Any other closing thoughts on the Warriors? Their category is called it's already over. That's the first category. The second category is probably the three stories of the season so far for basketball junkies. And this is the category of a deterrent called We Got Next. And these are teams

that are starting to establish themselves as the next set of contenders, maybe. And that is this trio of teams, the Bucks, Raptors, and Nuggets. Now, I think the Bucks and Raptors are super legit. And I think the Nuggets are,

we're all kind of drunk on the Nuggets, or high on the Nuggets, if you're talking to Colorado. But I don't really know, I don't know if I believe in it yet. I find it interesting that you say that about the Nuggets rather than the Bucks. Okay.

Because the Bucks is really, really fast. I'm not saying, saying it's without reason, but that's interesting to me because even at the beginning of the season, we were like, well, he's just not surrounded by anybody. Yeah. And it turns out that he was, they just weren't shooting off threes. Yeah. Yeah.

That's one of those things where you can just literally take the number one player from each team and pit him against each other and be like, okay, you know, Janis is obviously better than Yokic, as good as Yokicch is. So that's why I think we give more, you know, maybe like affinity for the pucks. I think this group is interesting to me because- The Nuggets. Well, just this tier of three teams Because I think

The Raptors have just kind of plugged in Kauai In terms of where the Marr's role was And he's just so much better But there's like continuity with all three teams And I like have kind of been thinking about this recently Like the how much continuity matters Especially early on the season And you can kind of see it with some of these teams

Like those three teams they have continuity Like yes, Boodenhozer came in and changed the system And that obviously has revamped the bucks but the Nuggets all have the same guys. The Raptors all have the same guys except for Kauai. So there's like a trend here, I think, of teams building upon a good season last year and taking it to another level this year. That's an interesting point.

Also with the Raptors, Kauai fits so perfectly because that's the direction they were trying to go anyway. You know, they were trying to push DeMar back and make him more of a playmaker. And when Kauai comes in, he's already at what Nick Nurse was trying to make DeMarr last season. Yeah, I still am a little worried about the Nuggets. I'm not fully buying in. I think for all to talk about their defense this season, which has been impressive. Like the turnaround has to be among the biggest in recent history at the very least.

But I also look at the Bucks defense. Their third, I believe, excuse me, second in the league right now. And we talked for so long about their length and what they could be on defense. And finally, they're putting it together. And meanwhile, they have the sixth ranked offense. So it's this balance that I don't think any team besides the Warriors is really giving you at this point. Even the Celtics are really good defense. team doesn't have the offense to really balance it at this point. And so to me, they're the most

complete team outside of the Warriors, which is interesting to say because now the biggest threat is coming from the East, no matter who it is. Sure. Yeah. And I think that you can call this stuff small sample size theater to be like, oh, they're only 7 and 0. But if you look back over the last, like, I'm sure longer than this, but at least as long as I've been really, you know, watching basketball, when teams get off to these like 10-game hot streaks like this, like it actually matters. There is momentum for that. It happened with the 2000, 2001 Sixers. It happened with that

Timberwolves team that wound up beating the Kings and going to Western Conference finals and losing to the Lakers. They got off to a really hot start. This is like a huge thing for them to be 7 and O to have top two defense and have a top six offense is championship recipe stuff. And one thing

that's interesting about the bucks and the raptors is like you were saying, palo, there is continuity there, but they did something brave. Both teams did something brave. They brought in a new coach and they fundamentally revamped parts of their offense around whether it was new concepts or new players and I think that it's just really fascinating and they are, this trio is night to night

the three teams that I'm always looking for on league pass. Yep. I'm still not sold on the nuggets. Like to me they're just kind of... As a contender or as like a watchability team? A little bit of both, but specifically on a watchability team. It's just what they were last year, but just more refined and I'm kind of like...

It's just another year to grow. Well, so I looked when you were, saying that about their defense, I looked at their schedule and they played the bulls, pelicans without Anthony Davis, the Lakers, the Kings, the Warriors, the Sons and the Clippers. It'll come back to Earth. Yeah, those numbers will come back to Earth. And so I have a piece going Friday about the Nuggets defense because I talked to one of their assistant coach who runs the defense.

And like, even he was like self-aware about the defense. He said, we're not asking the team to be top 10. Like we know we're probably not going to be top 10. We just want to be average because we know how good our offense is. I don't know if that's maybe like a little weird to say from him. Not this year. Not this NBA season. Average defense is like the frigging bad boys.

And on offense, they're 13th right now, which is fine. But I do think they have to be in the top 10 to ignore it. And I think they could expect that to a certain extent that that'll go up as well. I mean, look where that success took the wolves last year with their offense being so top rated. And then their defense being so poor. And the thing about the Nuggets offense is that it's so much. much of a better system than the wolves were last season. Right. Yeah.

I think, Justin, I wonder whether some of your skepticism is rooted in the fact that the Nuggets have this trio of players in Murray Harris and Yolkich, where their progress isn't going to feel like Yonah's progress. It's a little bit more subtle. It's a little bit more like all of a sudden Gary Harris is like one of the best two-way players in the league, but you're not, it doesn't, it doesn't show up in like these crazy Kauai highlights where he chased down blocks a guy, scoops up. a rebound and then drills a three on the other end. It's like a little bit more subtle than that. Whereas with the Raptors and the Bucks, any given moment, you're going to see something incredible. Yeah, and I also think with the

Nuggets, it takes a little bit of imagination to see Yokic ascending into like top 10 status because he is such a unicorn, like even a subsection amongst the unicorns. He's a unicorn with a nut, like a horn on his back. Right. Right. Yeah. It likes donuts.

Yeah, but then also in Crunch Time, Are you turning to Murray? He's still a little more erratic than I'd care for. Sure. That's when Will Barton, who's not playing right now, will help them when he comes back. That's the hope, yeah.

All right. Can I concern troll... Hold on that. Let's mark this right now. Willow Barton? What about Will Barton, though? Yeah, people do not appreciate him. He's a good crunch time score.

Can I concern troll the bucks just like a little bit? Yes. Is that okay? I'm Paolo. Right under the breach. There you. There's it. I'm working on it.

Are we worried at all about Janice's a lot? shot because he's shooting 2.7 3s a game the most he shot in his career but he's only making he's making like 6% of it like his his percentage is he's making 0.2 3s a game

so he's struggling from 3 I don't think it matters as long as the rest of the team is shooting as it is because genuinely I think that the point is Boontholder's like dude you've got to just try to shoot through it right because the other the other way that it could be is that he's Ben Simmons

I mean, granted, he was always been taking more attempts than Ben did, but you've got to learn somehow. And as long as the rest of the people are making it, Janus has obviously has other moves he can turn to. So it's essential that he learns it for the future. I don't think it's necessarily essential that he has that together right now. And also that he's telling defenses that he can take that. Exactly. Is the honesty it creates among defenses and the fact that there's this gravitational tilt and everybody has to go pay attention to this freak shooting threes,

now, it just makes life easier for Chris Middleton. It's a real space theme. Yeah, it is. Very cosmic. All right, let's move on to the next tier. And this is the tier I've decided to call the Hold Steady. Love this band, Minnesota, punk rock band, Brooklyn, really, but

Who's the say? The Hold Steady is teams that are either holding on to past gains or making incremental progress. So this is a bunch of teams, and within this group, I think there are some surprises. But I like that this group of teams has come out and under the radar, with the exception of a few teams, has just been like, we're weathering

any blips on the radar and we're just building slowly off of last season. And that's the pelicans, the Pacers, the Blazers, the Spurs, and the Jazz. Now, there are a couple of teams here I think we thought we're going to be much better than they were, aka the Jazz. There were a couple of teams I think we thought were going to be much worse, like the Spurs. And then there are a couple of teams here, like the Blazers, Pacers, I guess the Pelicans who are a little bit coming back down to Earth after the first week? Well, I think that's also been the games they played. They played the Warriors last night.

AD missed the two games before that, and then Alford-Payton also missed two plus, so three essentially. Alfred Payton. Great fantasy pickup. No, I think tonight's game, I think it's Pelicans, Blazers, I think that's going to tell a lot about both teams.

Yeah, and again, I mean, I think that this is a rematch of like a, in some ways, it's an inflection point of series, because it changed what we thought about what Anthony Davis could do with this New Orleans team, and it also changed what I think what we thought about what the Lillard McCollum Blazers could be, which is like they were so hot at the end of the second half of the season,

and they just got absolutely bombed out of the postseason. Which of these teams, Haley, here, do you think, are you most surprised by this season? Definitely not the Jazz. I'm surprised that you're surprised about the Jazz because I think that it's very easy to see their trajectory going the same way I did last year because of who they're coached by.

because of who leads them. If you think about it, like a young player is always going to have parts where he's tripped up. And Donovan Mitchell had a very rocky start to last season in terms of shooting, even though he came out of the gate

as someone very exciting. So it's definitely not the jazz for me. I think that I can see them definitely picking it up in the second half of the season as well as the Pelicans because their back court is new, even though Anthony Davis

and Anthony Davis's health is going to matter. Yeah. Same thing about that scene. I think it's got to be the spurs. The Pacers are the same, the Blazers are the same, it has to be a spurs Because everyone was No, even with that, like, they're like the most Hold Steady team of like all time, I feel like

As much as we want to like move them from that tier Like I feel like they just belong there forever Quisburykin sidelined and we're like Oh, but they have Manu, it's fine Yeah I mean it's just the spurs They're not super fun to watch But I think I had the most fun of the year so far

Watching them play the Lakers Because it was just like All the fireworks going off around the Lakers and then the spurs just getting the spots on the floor that they wanted to get to and shooting 60%. Well, especially without Dejante Murray, and I've heard a lot of people be like, well, he's not that important.

Look at their roster. Look at this team. This team is so good on this team. But like, if they can do this with Brent Forbes, like, are you, Dejante would immediately make them so much better. It's been really, really cool to see how they've, I don't want to say rebuilt, but how they've like put DeMAR into the offense.

Because they're like, dude, just do your thing. I mean, it's fine. But also, like, why don't you facilitate a little? more. Granted, they beat the Sons last night, but they beat him by 30. And Damar went 10 for 12 from the field, didn't take a three, five for five from the free throws, 25 points, four boards, three assists. That's the other thing is they've been superb with free throws.

They got to the line of time and they, hold on, let me find the exact number. This is what happens if you do, if you do all these little things right that have been the same in basketball since like the 1940s, like you, how you give yourself a chance. Love me some fundamentals. They're playing to the strengths. Yeah. Before Monday's game, Popovich was like, hey, threes, why don't we just make the four-point line? And he's still winning.

That's ridiculous. Which is weird. Are you cynical about this team a little bit? No, I think this is, to a certain extent, predictable. The rest of the West is just kind of a mess, and the teams that seem to be, like, rising above it are the teams that just have some sort of system in place or some sort of culture in place to fall back upon. Yes, that's interesting. I mean, I was bummed the past, what was it, two weeks ago when we were. going to talk about like takes that we were trying out.

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about like, man, the Blazers, like, I think they could just be good simply because of what they already have. Because it's Stots' playbook, because these guys know how to run it, et cetera. Right. And then just like recency bias where they got blown out by the Pelicans, everyone thinks that they're in crisis now. But they've really just came to the season and done what they did in the past.

And it's been good enough because there really isn't a lot of competition. Or there's competition, but there isn't as much of a top heavy prizes as we're used to. Michael C. Ray had a piece on ESPN the other day about Damar and his first few months in San Antonio and just how upsetting it was to get traded and what he felt like he meant to the Toronto organization. And then he gets to San Antonio and there's this scene in this piece where he walks in and he basically sees the five banners. And he's like, oh, I guess I know where I am now. And he talks about how everything you do from pregame to practice to how they treat the players and what everything is about. is, I mean, he doesn't throw anybody under the bus from any other franchise.

He's just like, you just have a feeling like the people who are running this team understand how to win basketball games and that everything you're doing is going towards that goal. DeMar is such an interesting person because his game is a throwback in today's NBA. But also, kind of his mentality is too. He wanted to stay with the Raptors his entire career.

And now he's got that in the Spurs, which is kind of like the franchise where... Where that happens. What's really interesting is in that piece, he talks about like, I don't drink, I don't really go out that much. And I'm like, you're a perfect sperm. You should have been all along. And

we talk a little bit in this that we got next tier about like the bucks, players on the bucks and raptors and the leap that some of these guys are taking. What if Damara can still take a leak? Oh, I absolutely think he will. What if tomorrow is like this playmaking combo guard now who can

Pop calls him the best passer on the team? Really? Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's not. Who would you think his best? Pass around that team. Amongst the healthy players? Like Rudy Gay? Yeah.

But yeah, it is weird. The team they've assembled is essentially like guys not only who wouldn't fit, you'd expect to fit in today's NBA, but the guys who are literally rebuked for it. Not only DeMarre, Rudy Gay was like the antithesis of like the anti-analytic movement for several years to the point where he also went to Toronto and left because he couldn't do anything there. Yeah.

It is fascinating what they've been able to. to do there, but it just, I guess it just speaks to leaning into who you are versus maybe chasing some of these three-pointers. And I also think that this particular tier is full of a, it has a few teams that are succeeding relative to their perception of that team, right? So even this jazz, I think, given how high a lot of us were on the jazz, and I know you were saying, like, you were always expecting them to have like a little bit of a rocky start and that Donovan doesn't necessarily start seasons well, they, this is a,

Spurs team. That happened to college, by the way, as well. I mean, it happens to lots of teams, like, lots of players who were just, like, it takes me 20 games to kind of get into the swing of things. But the Spurs, I think we're freaking out about because we were like, this team's that maybe not going to make the playoffs for the first time and should they tank and all this other stuff. Who said that?

I mean, I think that the Spurs don't quote-unquote tank except when they tanked for David Robinson for Tim Duncan. But, you know, I think that that was like in the conversation of like, well, what is this team going to do? Should they just get the sixth seed? What conversation? That's the conversation people have about every NBA team when you're like, oh, you're not going to...

If you're not winning the title, what are you doing? If you're not going for a title, yeah. The idea was that they might not make the playoffs, and I still think that's a possibility, even though that they have risen into, what, the four spot right now, I'm looking at the point differential, it's plus 1.6, which is about what everybody else is in the mix there. I think that the West has bottomed out a little bit,

but to a certain extent, like you expect the Lakers to make a run, the clippers are feisty, the wolves, if they keep Jimmy or even if not, they play like they did last night. Like, there's going to be a lot of movement here, and especially like the Kings, like, that's not an easy win anymore, perhaps. So I wouldn't say for sure

that the Spurs are going to make the playoffs right now. Interesting. Maybe that's a contrarian take. No, it's not. I mean, I think that there's a lot of very good teams on the outside looking in right now in the Western Conference, but this is, we're too early now

to be doing this, but in about two weeks, it won't be too early to be like the thunder are, in trouble. Oh, yeah. I think it's interesting that, like, if we expect some of this to, like, level out, because if, like, we're talking about, you see, like, the rockets where they are and the thunder where they are, even the clippers and whatnot.

Like, the one thing that I'm worried about with the spur specifically is, like, they just cannot afford even, like, one slight injury anymore because of what happened before the season. So if we expect things to level out and then we expect some injuries to come into play, that's where I can kind of see your case. We're like, okay, maybe they don't make playoffs anymore. But I do think, to your point, like, it is interesting how we're like, oh, it's early. But in the West, things were decided by so slim a margin that every single game matters.

That's exactly right. All right. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. And when we come back, we'll continue going through these made-up tiers of the NBA. Today's episode of The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by the new Showtime Sports Documentary series Shut Up and Dribble. Don't miss the three-part television event that's bigger than all the woge bombs rolled into one. From executive producers, LeBron James and Maverick Carter,

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We're back on NBA group chat. I just dunked on Haley. by backing up some of my assertions with some pretty vibrant Reddit threads. I asked him where he saw people talking about the Spurs Tank, so he googled Spurs Tank

and a Reddit thread came up. I was talking about it like figuratively. I do understand what you're saying that you either are contending for a championship or you're close or you need to start everything over and be super dramatic.

and tank, but... Blow it up. The Spurs are never in that conversation. I love the middle of the NBA now. Well, that's great. What a great segue. Because we're here to talk about this tier I'm calling the middle class.

Oh. 500 clubs. They win some, they lose some. The roster is what it is. You're not going to get an easy one on them except when you will. What a boring collection of teams, by the whole thing.

So why don't you defend it? Because I feel like these are the Danny Chow Justin Vary your teams. don't let me in that so we have the pistons the heat the hornets and the clippers I think based on this season and what

we know I think this makes some sense but I'm worried about every single team in this tier there's something to be excited about for every team here there's two things to be super concerned and or bored about

I can't even get emotional enough about these teams to be concerned I don't even know what concerns I'm curious, what's the exciting thing for the heat right now? That they might trade for Jimmy. Okay, sure. It's something outside of their...

But they might trade because if you look at everyone else on their roster, like, dude, that's a solid roster. Yeah, but, okay, sure. They're missing the most obvious piece, but everything about them is so... Look at the... of the rest of the teams here, maybe accepting the Clippers. You can make the argument for them. They're the most complete. I mean, I think they're like Clippersies where they don't have like a top guy, but they have, like, solid role players. all around.

I really like the Hornets because I just love watching Kamba. I'm all in on the Hornets. I love Palo's corners. He picks one early in the season and he sticks with it through. I like a perseverance.

Pollo loves the Hornets. Paulo hates chocolate. Paulo lights vanilla ice cream plain. One time I saw... Why are you doxing Palo right now? Because I want you to know exactly what the hornets are. They are chips without salsa.

Timmy. I like chips without salsa. The Hornets are actually not that boring In some ways My guy Malik Monk Myles Bridges is good for a highlight of night I think that they feel freer Without Dwight Howard

It seems like if behind the scenes Tony Parker is doing a lot of work to show guys About like how to kind of actually put together Some wins in this league They're four and four They have a positive point differential They've won that I mean Like this is a 500 team

And I think they're going to make the playoffs What do you think? I mean, like, were you out with him? I do like what Borago is done there. It seems like they're picking up the pace and like reverting back to small ball, which is why they had success, what was it, three years ago now, where they made the playoffs and almost pushed the heat. Or they almost beat the heat in that seven game series in the first round.

Yeah. Dan Devine had a really good piece. He talked about the Hornets within his five most interesting teams on Wednesday. And he did point out, like, what they're basically doing is not playing most of their front court players at all. Yeah, MKG's the Dremont, right? Right. And even Willie Herman. Rand Gomez, who is the nominal center in the second unit, is basically stretching for

MKG two-play center, which I think is super interesting. And they've essentially turned Kamba into like Steph Light. Yeah. And it's been... You were basically saying like, oh, all these guys are like very like Rite Aid brand versions of these other players. That's fine in the east. They have the second best offense in the league right now.

Right-aid has some quality products. Yeah. There you go. If you can't afford, if you can't afford keels, you're going to go for the right-eight hand moisturizer. You know what I mean? Yeah. Let's talk about some of these other middle-class teams,

much as it may pay us to do. So we've talked about the Hornets and the heat. Justin, as a clippersologist, what do you, how are you feeling about Doc's group here? I think they're just really deep, and I think they've been able to push teams as a result of that. I think there is going to be a little bit of coming down from what they've been able to do.

I think they'll inevitably have, like, a crazy injury run. Well, that too, yeah. And they're the type of team, if they do lose one or two players, I think there's a chance they could end up bonding them out, and we'll talk about them as a tanking team. But the other thing is just, I think they've hit a lot of teams at the right time. Like, they caught the Wizards, they caught the Rockets when they're kind of in two games

against the rockets when they're kind of in disarray. The Thunder earlier in the season, they lost the nuggets, but they were hanging with them early on. I think they're going to be solid, and it really depends on how the West shakes out for them to have a chance. Right. I think with every conversation about every team

in this group is going to end the same. It's like, they're going to be okay. It kind of depends on everything else. But... Can I push back?

Sure. I think the pistons are legit-ish. I think like they are going to... I saw this. I smelled the same out of something. I was like, what is you trying to say?

Oh, man. I think that if they finish below a six seed, I would be surprised at this point. Because I don't... I think after the top five in the east, which is solidified to a certain extent,

I think the sixers were probably jump in there by the end of the season. I just don't see who else is out there unless they get Jimmy. And I think that Blake Griffin is a good enough player, win healthy, to lead a team to a

like middling success in the Eastern Conference. Yeah, they lost by a point to the Dinwiddie crazy Nets last night, 119, 120 in overtime. They've played a couple overtime games already. They play the one against the Sixers.

They are certainly like an entertaining team watch. I think the reason why I'm a little higher on the heat and the clippers than the Pistons and the hornets here is because the heat and the clippers both feel like they have deals in them. You know what I mean? And that doesn't necessarily make them better, but it means like, oh, you guys could put something together and make a move for someone

once the trade market starts to heat up. I also think both of those, the heat and the clippers just have more longevity in their roster. Sure. Guys who have like taken the season far enough and like have seen this before, whereas the Pistons have proven enough. I don't like the Pistons back for. I don't trust the Pistons at all, to be honest.

Yeah, I don't like the ish Reggie combo. It's very heavy with the Ishman. I love Ish, but I'm like, that's a lot of ish. Yeah, but we talk about teams that have moves to make. I think that the pistons could be buyers. Interesting. They could take advantage of the market. I mean, Windhorst is already talking about Kyle Korver, them being in the mix for him.

And, like, he won't move the needle that much, but that's just like another player. And maybe they're the type of team, like, the Pelicans in the past couple of years, willing to sacrifice another first round pick just to, like, make the most of this team. Because, like, what is even the window? Well, this is also... The next two years? You know, we never really... We haven't really talked about this,

but for each one of these teams, there are... And I think I'm more aware of this right now because of the NFL stuff. And I was listening to Amazing Clark yesterday on the NFL show and they were talking a lot about, like, what the Eagles and the Rams were doing

to just kind of just be like, there is no tomorrow. Like, we're just going to get Golden Tate. We're just going to get Dante Fowler. We're just going to surround these rookie contract quarterbacks with this much crazy talent as possible and see if we can win a Super Bowl or two

in the process. We don't really talk about that so much with the NBA because we're just going to We're always so aware of like this five-year plan, trust the process. But with the Pistons, they have an empty gym. And maybe they should be buyers. You know what I mean?

Maybe they should sacrifice. In that spot because they have Blake locked down. Yeah. Right. And they're going to have to pay him $40 million anyway. Yeah. Sure. And we know.

And Blake is 29, but he seems like he's like 32. Yeah. His fan is small. And I think, honestly, let's see. The Pistons are in that category. The Rockets are very much in that category, signing Chris Paul. The Warriors are too, but it just doesn't seem like they're nearly locked down enough because they have a clear path to winning more titles. Are there any other teams that are so locked in to, okay, like the two years from now, like this contract, all of our contracts might be a mess.

So we really have to win right now, make this count because otherwise like, we're getting in. Yeah, the Lakers. No, no way. Not the Lakers at all. The Lakers window is LeBron. Yep. That is sure. The Lakers have a bunch of one-year deals in young guys.

They're not nearly in the same position. I agree with you. But they're not the reason why... I just think that the Lakers are going to make deals under pressure because this experiment is not going to have the long road that we think it is. I just think that when I think about... The runway is not there for them to be like, in three years. Sure.

When LeBron is like 33 or however long... You know, however will we be in 37? How old will we be in three years? He's 33 right now. He's going to be 34 in December. Right. So when LeBron is turning 37, that's when we'll have everything put together here.

Sure, and that's not what I'm saying, but they have so much flexibility now. They have so much more flexibility in this moment. Whereas like the Pistons... Like the Whiz? The Wissons best kid... Yeah, the Wiz also we could throw in there, but they're younger, so I don't think it's as scary.

And more talented. What you're saying about Detroit taking the same route that New Orleans did, I think that's their best case scenario, because there's only so much you can budge with this roster, and it really worked out with Pelicans. They made a couple tweaks. It's interesting.

On the fly, I've come up with another tier. We have to do this now, tier. The ones who are locked in. Yeah, this is what we are and we have to make the most of it tier. And the Pelicans, again, are in that tier simply because they have to show to Anthony Davis that they can be on a high level.

Yeah, and then talk about stakes. I mean, we have no idea what that franchise looks like if he leaves. Yeah, I do. I've seen it. When he wasn't playing. It's taking place in the Pacific Northwest. It's Tim Frazier, jacking 20 shots.

The next tier I have here is called This Is Fine, which is a popular Mamee with the kids on Twitter. No, just kidding, I know what it is. This is teams that I think are, they're gripping the wheel a little tight right now in various ways. The rockets, the thunder, the Sixers, the T-wolves, the Cavs, and the Wizards. Now, some teams may have had no business thinking they were going to be any good. Some teams may have thought they were going to be better than they were.

Some teams had no idea these storm clouds were coming for them, but they're certainly getting rained on right now. So let's talk about these teams that are trying to weather, weather the storm in the early part of the season. We could start wherever you want. I think that the calves are the only team that we expected to have their degree of problems. Like that we was in the realm of possibility. I was, yeah.

I think the calves are going to be bad, but I think losing your coach six games in is just throws them into this category. And also not being able to hire an interim coach. I'm really, really happy that Tyloo got out and still gets paid and one rings and just doesn't have to deal with coaching this team. Just one of them, but yeah. I think, I don't know if I believe

that the Sixers should be in this tier. Here's what I'll put him in there. I'll just run through really quickly. The Rockets are in this tier because they're not very good right now and because they, we may be at the point where Carmelo is actually a curse, you know, to have him on your team. The Thunder are here because they cannot seem to get out of first gear,

and they still have the same problems that they have had for the entire Russell Westbrook administration. The Sixers are here because they are experimenting with the long-term viability of Markell Fultz as their point guard, even though they are a much better team with him off the floor. The T-wolves are here because they are the T-wolves. The Cavs are here because they're going to have to do a full-scale tear-down and rebuild in the middle of the season, it looks like, with probably trading Corver, probably trading Love, J.R. Smith's hardly with the team anymore. And they're like, play the kids.

And the kids are, with the exception of Sexton and Osmond, bad. You know, like if you're talking about Hood and Clarkson, right? Yep. And the whiz are the wizz are the worst of the bunch. The WIS have already had like the mid-season players-only meeting and we're six games, seven games in the season. Having said that. Okay.

Do we think the WIS are going to miss the playoffs? No. That's the thing. Like, it's still so early. I will say I think that the early part of the season matters more than people give it credit to I think you could dig yourself out of a hole

but if you look back historically the teams that are bad usually stay bad having said that I think the Wizards are the type of team if the East is so weak I don't think it's weak and the Wizards are one in six and who are the Wizards going to just look at the standings

who are the Wizards going to knock out of the playoff right here I was just going to say as looking at the standings the other day I was like the East teams are set like you guys I wouldn't be surprised if this is the playoffs. This is already set. That's a good point, but I think like the heat are soft. I think like even the pistons, even despite what I said, the Hornets, I think those are the type of teams if an injury or even just like general malaise sets in.

Totally. I would say injury. I would say that the eight teams that are there right now, I'm like, if you told me that this was the final playoff fairings, I would be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, oh, it totally makes sense. But, God, the Wizards just have so much talent and just there's this constant nagging feel despite everything that they're saying. Do they? Yeah. Do they?

I think Beal is really good. I think Porter winning age is really good. I love Beal. And then Wall is like kind of destructive. Not even kind of. Go ahead. You know what I noticed about all of these teams is that they're all teams that are forcing something to happen. Okay.

They're forcing something to beat. With the Wizards, like, they're kind of forcing this core to work. With the wolves, they're forcing this weird. I mean, they're forcing everything. I'm not even going to know. The Sixers is exactly what you said with Markell. The Rockets, I don't even know if Carmel is the biggest issue that they're forcing. Yeah, that was just crazy to think about, but yes.

They also lost their defensive coordinator. They also seem to just kind of be a year older. And this would be fine if the Rockets were kind of playing this more like later period Garnett-Pierce Celtics team. That's just like wake us up in January. And we'll solidify our playoffs seating and like get ready for the playoffs. But I think that everybody, I don't think, we expected a one-year window from the Chris Paul Hardin

axis, and that's what's going on here. And I think that they thought they were that team, but they're not just losing these games by a couple points. They're getting blown off the floor. And so if they were, if it was just like a couple of crunch time malfunctions, I would be like, okay, maybe we'd just give them a chance. But I really do think that they're at the point where they might need a Cav style reboot mid-season. If it's not Jimmy, maybe just like trying to reshuffle the bench unit. So minor pieces definitely because when you, I mean, it's James Hardin and Chris Paul.

They're going to carry you into the playoffs without a doubt. But like they're their side pieces, their core pieces. That's what I go. Sorry, it goes back to kind of what I tried to like mention earlier, which was the continuity thing. Because yeah, you still have James Hardin and Chris Paul. But because you lost, I know we probably like overrated a reason in this scenario. But are we? I mean, that's the thing is like I feel like they lost their con their role player.

continuity a little bit and that has cost them early on because they're having to play guys like Marquis Chris and I say at Hartenstein like what I mean what are we doing? The rockets and the Sixers are kind of similar to me in a little bit of a way. It recently Embed came out after a game and they were asking about the three-point struggles and he was like well we got rid of

the guys who could shoot threes and the guys we have can't shoot threes as well and he was obviously talking about Ilysova and Billanelli but whether that was like shots at Markell Fultz I don't know but like the idea is basically like it's the little things on these teams that make them good sometimes. And Mbamute and Areza, while limited,

were obviously important pieces. And to say nothing of the fact that Carmelo, Anthony, Marquis, Chris, are not those guys. You know what I mean? They're not, hey, we do the little things. Hey, we keep everybody in the locker rooms head on to swivel. Like, this is like these little decisions teams make here and there that can screw up a season.

And I think you have to wonder with the Sixers. I know we talk about the Rockets as Jimmy, destination. Like, do the Sixers start to worry too much and they start to think about their timeline and that they need to get another star in there as soon as possible, just based on the contracts come out? So there's two schools of thought. There is the Elton Brand interview with Zeklo where he said the window for our team is

Ben's working contract, the window to add another star. So the clock is ticking on that. But they're not playing like that. They're playing like a team that's like, we're going to go for the championship in two or three years because they're playing Markell Fultz at point guard. And if they were serious about, like, putting games away, they wouldn't start him. They would bring him off the bench. They would have him play against lesser competition.

They would be able to, like, hide him in different places. And instead, they've screwed up the starting lineup and are actually winning games in the second half. You know, when they actually are like, okay, let's go out and put Reddick out there with TJ and go after these teams like that. So there's a little bit of mixed messaging going on there. Yeah, which is what we advocated for going into the season, just take. taking your time. You are, you have a good core, figure out the full thing, because that will be your entry point to finding the next star, whether that's him or trading him. I think the issue is that the playoffs last year naturally raised the expectations we had for them. And those kind of coasted

into, we coasted into the season with those expectations in mind, or maybe a lot of people did have like, okay, so sixers, top three, top two in the east, like easily. Like it was, it was barely even a conversation. But I think given that they're trying to do this first half thing, and also just like, there's still a young team. Like, I think some regression was expected, which is why I'm not, like, worried about them. I just think that they need to figure out this, like, half development.

They're a grand experiment, man. I don't think anyone's allowing them that regression because we think of them as so much more advanced than their age. Yeah, and I think that they're also, like, they're not a soap opera, but you will get an answer like that from Embed. And maybe that answer comes from somebody who's like, I know that, like, it's not his career, his fleeting, But, like, he's had enough injuries and enough significant injuries to know that, like, you know, while you've got me on the floor and while I'm in my prime and while I'm healthy and while I'm getting better and better, like, we should try to be the best possible team we can be.

It's so interesting how teams that might panic for Jimmy, they're also different. The Rockets would because they are, like, this is probably their year. I mean, it's looking more and more like next year, like, won't even matter because this year's starting, we're starting to be curious and they'll be competitive with the Warriors at the end of the season. Whereas the heat, like I don't even Compared to the Sixers who are so much younger, I don't even see, like the Sixers seem like they're panicking so much more or that they would be panicking. Maybe it's just because there's just more people in the media who are obsessed

to the Sixers. I have no idea. You know what I mean? Like that could actually have something to do with the conversation around these teams. Let's move on to the next category. I have called this one in honor of the Sixers, trust the process, which is just teams that have been bad for a while that are starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel in various ways.

We talk a lot about the Lakers. We talked about, you know, I don't really know what a success is for this team. I've never seen a LeBron team feel more. Even off the court, LeBron teams often feel chaotic. I've never seen a more chaotic on the court team. Yeah.

Just in terms of like how they're organized. Yeah. And also the fact that no game is won until the buzzer actually sounds. Also, LeBron's body language has always been very transparent. Yes. I mean, he is literally pointing at you

and telling you you're in the wrong. spot and you need to get in the wrong spot. And it doesn't help that he has like literally giant muscles that are fucking moving everywhere. The way that he is on the court has never also looked so frustrated. Like he's coaching

kids. It does feel a little more directive. Like it's so seeing him up close. It's funny seeing him sometimes just like literally like stand atop of the key and just like, I know the guys do this because they call for screens or whatever. But it's so like, I don't know it just feels like he's like lured over that. know what I'm saying?

It's just like, okay, like points. And then it's like, give me the screen like right here. Yeah. I think if you look at his line from last night in the win over Dallas, you would say, wow, vintage LeBron. He's 11 for 19, 29 points, assists, rebounds all there. But it seemed like he was maybe like 75% of what he can be. And I think I was talking to someone at the game last night.

I think the idea is just like this is what early season LeBron at 33 going on 34 is right now. Simply could like in order to pace himself. He has just figured out what he can give in an early season, regular season game. And to his credit, that's kind of what the Lakers need right now. They need to figure out who these young guys are. They need to play some of the Jonathan Williams on their bench just to make sure they have able bodies come February.

Yeah, yeah. It's really kind of tied to the Sixers thing, where the Sixers are doing this with Fultz, but the Lakers just have to do this because their team is full of these. Yeah, they have to figure out. A team full of Fulses. The other teams in this tier are the Kings and the Nets and the Gris. Does anybody here jump out?

I mean, these are just teams that I'm like, oh, you know. I think the Nets are the most ready of memory. And then Kings and then I know this is unpopular opinion, but I put Gris the third. Okay. Cangs baby. What? Cangs baby. Cangs?

Let's talk about the Cangs. Is this real? No, but they're just really fun. And they are closer to being average than at any point in the last decade? Yeah. I think Dieran Fox is really good. I think that Buddy Heald has showed a little bit of progress, more progress than we've seen from him in the past couple years. And I think getting rid of some of their other wing riffraff and Bogdan Baddanovich not being there right now has allowed him to step into that void. And all of a sudden, Willie Colley Stein in a contract year.

Yeah, Willie Contract Stein. Great nickname. It's one of my proudest moments. Just, I think he's been properly motivated. and just the pace that they're playing at fits these players. And it's just like, why weren't you doing this three years ago? It's so outrageous when you look at their roster. It's just a friggin McDonald's All-American team.

It's so good. And now all of these guys at various points have had like ACL ruptures or played in Europe or whatever. But it's just like, oh, yeah, Ben McClmore, Harry Giles, Scal, Frank Mason, Bagley. You know, it's like all these guys. Truly the college basketball fans, NBA team. Yeah. Truly.

They're like the top half. I was just looking at that. They're the top half both offense and defense. So they're like legitimately good. I'm not the first person I think to make this point

but I think because the league is, you know, we all talked about it like trending faster and higher scoring and the freedom of movement rules and all that.

Like it lends itself well to teams like the kings that can do that. So like on other nights where they would have just been like overpowered, they can keep up with teams because of the pace.

You know what I'm saying? I think that's interesting where like it kind of puts them back into like you said average. Yeah. Because of that. Speaking of average, this Grizzlies team is sort of the reverse of that King's team where they have two obviously all NBA quality players but who have seen better days health-wise.

And then they have this just collection, aside from Jared Jackson, this just collection of like guys who are like, oh yeah, I'm just the Swiss Army knife. And they have like a bunch of Swiss Army Knife around these two really good players. and then you're seeing Jaron Jackson who's scoring like basically a point for every minute that he's on the floor. He's like 11 points a game, 22 minutes a game.

What do you guys, have you watched the Grizz at all this season? Not as much as I would like to, but the sense I get from them from the little I've seen is they've almost like reverted back to what worked a few years ago. They're playing a little bit slower.

They're a little bit more of a grinded out sort of team. You have to when you have Kyle Anderson. And Marcus All and Mike Conley who can play at different paces but is much more of a steady hand. I expect them to take a step back. I just don't necessarily believe there, and there's always the injury concern

with their core players, and if they lose one of them for, I don't know, a couple games, I think that's enough to step back. Well, they're playing 10 guys a game more than double-digits game.

I was going to say their scoring is well-rounded, which is a positive sign because of injuries. Maybe they could sustain someone being off the court for a couple games, but I just cannot see this continuing. Yeah, one of the takes I was trying out preseason was like, Grizzlies are going to be good

or they're going to be decent enough to make the playoffs just because I like believe in Mike Conley just let me be workshopping takes because I just like love watching Mike Conley

and I think it's really good and so same with Marcus Hall but I don't know yeah I agree it's gonna regress I just imagine you with like a pint of Ben and Jerry's vanilla and a bag of toastitos

with no salsa boy Mike Conley's good that's my Friday night Hornets on one side what's funny is when I stumbled upon Paolo in the in the Lakers press room yesterday he was getting chips with no salsa.

There was no salsa, to be clear. Dude, you better help Bobby just, like, loses this podcast. The last two tiers here, I have wait till next year, which is not quite tank division. So wait until next year and tank division are the last two tiers. Wait until next year, I have nicks and mavs, which are tanking teams that you can feel good about. Now, I don't know if the Mavs would call what they're doing tanking. You saw them last night. I guess they're pretty competitive.

Yeah, Luka is incredible. Tell me a little bit. I think that Luca just plays at a certain pace that's his own. He's not necessarily going fast. He's not necessarily going slow. But he just has this command of the court that's just, it's rare for any player, let alone a what, 19, 20-year-old rookie. And you saw last night at that game, he kind of willed them back into it, hitting a couple big shots. And he's really their accelerant.

And it's really been exciting to see what he's doing. And even having said that about his maturity on the court, off the court, still a huge LeBron fan. Paul and I caught him waiting for a sign LeBron jersey after the game. That he was handed, somebody handed to him that was, like somebody that wasn't a LeBron came out and like, he was like, hey, he got this for a year or whatever.

LeBron didn't give it to him? No, he didn't come out of him. And the writing on it was hilarious. It was the most like basic stuff. It was like. Strike for greatness. Hashtack. He probably just has a bag of those.

He looked so happy, though. He was thrilled. Yeah, he was. What a beta. The last division here I have is the tank division. We can talk really quickly. if there's any of these terrible, terrible basketball teams you want to talk about,

the hawks, the magic, the sons, the bulls. This is everything going towards next year. I know Markanin's coming back, Paolo. Is that what you were going to say? That's not what it's going to say. I didn't fully expect the sons to be all the way down here. Like, I thought they were going to be at least a little bit better. You thought I would rank them better?

You thought they would be better. I don't disagree that they belong here right now, but I thought that we kind of like had a... I would put them in the chest of process signs of life. Because they're not winning. Yes. I think that they, play better.

And I think like Booker playing under Igor's offense is going to be like he's going to have gody stats if he can stay healthy

and I don't know man I just keep I keep thinking about this Aitin thing I just keep thinking about the Luka I think it's going to be a thing in a year or two

like Aitin's going to be a double double guy that just doesn't matter well yeah Aitin has been really sharp offensively he's shown a little bit more skill than I even realized

and I didn't really do much scouting so I didn't really do much scouting so I didn't realize anything. But, like, defensively, they're atrocious. They lost by 30 at home. Yeah. And you're not a good team if you lose that by that much home.

Yeah. Yeah. And if he's a rookie and he'll figure some stuff out, you know. But what, like, the best case scenario for Aiton as a defender is still kind of a liability. You know what I mean? Yeah, he's still a bit of a lug. You know, he's just a huge body and he has to be able to move and switch and get on in the perimeter.

And that's still to be seen. The early returns are better than what I expected and what I'd heard about him. but I think that's going to be his kind of cross the bear going forward. I'm awful for players getting their money, but I do wish we had a reason on a better team. Well, you might get your wish. Yeah, well, eventually I will. But yeah, I just, you know.

Haley, anybody from the tank division that jumps out at you? No, but I was looking at this, and I'm sad that we skipped over the Nets. Oh, this is a team that used to be in the Tank Division, and now is not. So why don't we talk a little bit about the Nets to sign us off? And also have very positive projections. I have a question for that. Positive projections to take. statistically or like astrology was.

I think a lot of the players that we, do you remember like two years ago when we saw that picture of the Nets players and we were like, it's hilarious. The Nets Media Day picture, how many of them can you name? Yeah. And the answer was like zero.

Right. Like some of those guys, not literally the guys in the picture because I went and looked at it the other day to see if Levert was one of them. But like, they're not those Nets anymore. Yeah. You know who they're starting 5FAR.

Yeah. People know who Jared Allen and Carislevard and DeAngel Russell. them. I like watching Lever. I like watching Jared Allen a lot. I like watching Dinwiddie. Come on, Russell. It's tough seeing the angel on the bench, like last night when Spencer Deerwitty was hitting those ice in his vein shots,

and the angel is just on the bench, just like in his warm-ups. At the beginning of the year, I was like, this could be his year. Like, maybe he'll be like most improved player or something. But he's not even like the third most likely on that team to win the most improved player. What were you going to say? I don't think I had anything to say. Nothing other than that's? Okay.

We're going to wrap up group chat there. Thanks for sitting through this with the tears. I think it's an interesting concept. Love tear talk. We came up with it. Tomorrow we have the corner three with Charks, Danny, and Kevin O'Connor. And join us, of course, for heat check on Mondays. We'll be with you all week next week. I think there's going to be a source to say. So keep it locked on NBA, the ringer NBA show.

Thanks for listening. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.