The Ringer NBA Show - The Embiid Kerfuffle, OKC’s Defensive Dominance, and an Early West Survey With Kirk Goldsberry | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

Justin and Rob are joined by Kirk Goldsberry and they start by discussing all of the news about Joel Embiid and the Sixers from the weekend. Then, they take a look at the Western Conference and discuss some teams that have stood out. They also talk about whether anyone can catch the Oklahoma City Thunder (14:37). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Guest: Kirk Goldsberry Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get your. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media. That's at Ringer NBA and check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of podcasting

right on the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me as always Rob Mahoney. No big waz today. I think he saw Rob and I tweeting over the weekend about Ryan Rupert and Tar Heason. It was like I got to get out of here. So we brought in a new ringer, a ringer, but also a new ringer in Kirk Goldsbury. Kirk, what's up, man? What is up, guys? It's great to be here. And I can't wait to get started. So this is my first appearance on this show. Hopefully not my last. We'll see how I go, go through this today. Well, Rob has managed to stick around for a while. So you should be fine here. There's a long leash around here, Kirk. I can assure you. You can mess up as much as you would like, and we would love to

have you back at any time. But, Justin, we have a lot to get into today. It's been a surprisingly noisy NBA weekend, I would say. That's right. So we're going to get into kind of an early West survey. We did the East a couple days ago. We're going to hit the West, some of the most intriguing aspects of the what? Two weeks we had, not even two weeks of NBA basketball thus far, OKC, etc. But we have to hit the big old honking news from over the weekend, which is the Philadelphia 76ers. And specifically, Joel and Bede got into, what seems to be a shoving match with a reporter based on some inflammatory and, dare I say, wild shit that the columnist had had written in a recent column.

Kirk, I'm sure you've been following this from afar. Like, what do you think about this whole mess in Philly right now? Yeah, it's a mess. And it's not the way I look at the game analytically. But I can tell you without Joelle and B, the Philadelphia 76ers are not very good. And with Joelle and Bid, they have the potential to be very good. Um, so I, you know, I look at this team as, you know, if they're whole, Justin, they're going to win 60 to 70% of their game. So the question now is how, what percentage of the season will they be whole for? And right now it seems like that's 60% itself, 70%. So I, it looks like they're trending towards being a play inish team unless they get their players on the court. Um, and what Mb did this weekend, um, I think, I, a lot of us find inexcusable.

I didn't particularly like the column that he was so upset about, but to cross that line, I think is obviously unacceptable. And I think it points to a larger sort of problem with their team right now. They just, they're not ready for the season to start, period. And they're digging a hole. And they've won one game,

and they have high expectations. And the bottom line, Justin is that dude needs to get on the court soon. That's what I would say. Yeah. And Howard Beck had a story on the ringer.com today about the broader Joel situation communication gap. And I think rightly pointing out how much of the noise around him stems from the fact that

he and the Sixers basically just refused to say that he's actually injured for some reason. And I don't know why that's the case. I don't know why this has to be a state secret. It creates problems for everybody. And frankly, like, I want to disentangle these two things a little bit. Like the Sixers are one and four because they don't have Joel Embed on the court. There's what happened in the locker room, which I think is related in some ways to the slow start. Like that column doesn't get written if this season starts more smoothly.

But it's also kind of a fundamentally different issue in poking at an entirely different bear, so to speak. And so like I almost want to take those two things separately where there's the Joel part of this, which as we've alluded to is in response to a column that was completely like way too personal and completely uncalled for. and rightly the section that Joelle seemed to have taken umbrage with has been edited out of the column. Always a great sign for how things were going over there. Shouldn't have responded the way he did. And yet here's the situation the Sixers find themselves in. And I feel a little foolish, JV, in the sense that, like, as many as, as recently as a couple weeks ago, I dared to think this might be a normal Sixers season.

And I guess it is in a way, but they just seem incapable of having like a normal operation around there. I think that's kind of the key point there, is this became more of a powder keg than it probably should have been for a variety of reasons, but also because of the long history of these sorts of things mounting in Philly. Like going back to way before even the process era, like there's just been so much drama and it must be exhausting for anybody in that building, let alone a fan, to participate in it. And it feels like, Embed, being the lone guy who's been there for so long, seems like it's weighing on him as well. And so, like, if you're going to ding him for for not playing. That's one thing. But then to bring up his, is now dead brother, who it seemed like

was such a touchpoint for him, such like a can't go over that line sort of thing. Like, it just made things much worse. I thought Kyle Newback had a really good piece when he wrote about it, just suggesting that Embed not being able to see his brother before he died was such an issue for him. And so that is wrapped up in how much he was wrapped up in his recovery, but also in like playing. So he didn't see him for a couple of years as a result of that. To bring that up was probably the worst possible thing you could do. And so to a certain extent, I understand Embedd obviously shouldn't have gone to those lengths to make it physical. But it just, it just seems like all this stuff is just kind of mounting.

And Embed being the guy that's been there for so long is just the one that's having to bear the burden of it all. Well, Anta bring it up in a way that is directly commenting on Joel's supposed like unwillingness to sacrifice, right? It's like, incredible tolls have been paid by all professional athletes to get to this point, especially someone like Joelle and Bid, who's had incredible tragedy within his family. So it's an incredibly dicey situation to begin with. I thought the rest of Marcus Hayes' column, I get where he's coming from in terms of calling out Joel for the lack of conditioning. I think stuff like that is fair game for an NBA superstar. doing it in the manner he did unacceptable as far as I'm concerned. Responding, Joel responding in the way he did, also unacceptable, probably will result in some kind of suspension.

Everything is great for the Sixers, as we know, just as it's been on the court, frankly. And I don't know that I expected this team to play well, Kirk, in the sense that they have guys who can hit spot up jumpers around Joel and Bede, for example. But you take away the engine of that offense. And it's like, how are they supposed to function with this kind of bare bones operation with no Joel and no Paul, George, who we should say, is cleared and is supposed to make his debut finally tonight on Monday. Yeah, I don't, I had high expectations for this team if they were going to play. And, you know, I think one of the things that the Philadelphia fan base and some of the press there is losing their patience with is the optics associated with playing in the Olympics and playing in the summer and then not being ready for the season. It's just a weird combination.

And then, Rob, to your point, to add on to that, there's not been an explanation. of, hey, man, yeah, he is swelling in his right knee. That would go a long way here. That would go a long way. And we can't get it. So I think there is a perception around Joelle. We all have it that he misses time. And since he's been drafted, he's been missing time.

I think it's a perfect storm of a few things. Playing 82 games is hard for anybody at the level that these guys are expected to play at. You add in his size, his injury history, and the Olympics, it's nearly impossible to ask him to come out and do this. And then you hear there's an added expectation for this team to be ready in the playoffs. Okay, they're load managing. Cool. But it's just a perfect storm of bad communications. You know, Joel's nature is sort of a fragile athlete historically and a Philly fan base that's not exactly the right setting for this all to be going down.

And it's just, you know, powder keg was your term. I think that's right. And it blew up this weekend. But I go back to my first point, you know, he needs to get out on the court and just play a few games. And all of this will be history. He just needs to get out there. Or last point, we need to find out why he's not out there. Because the current situation is untenable.

Yeah. The information gap is always going to be a problem. People are going to fill that no matter what. And it seems like that's always an issue with Philly. It seems like they want to be able to manipulate. how people are accepting the news. But you're right. I think Paul George coming back on Monday is a big boon for them.

Because I think the thing that I've been worried about as they've gone through the first five games in which they're one and four thus far have a minus 9.2 point differential second worst in the NBA is just how bad the supplementary guys have been. Like Rob, you alluded to the shooting, like their second worst and three point percentage in the entire league. And so obviously Paul George getting a. second superstar next to Maxie is going to fix a lot. I do worry if those guys aren't providing some of the in-between stuff, that's when I start to worry about the institution altogether,

whether or not this team is built so top-heavy. And with so many old guys coming off the bench at this point, whether or not there's a disconnect between our expectations versus what actually they could do this season. I don't think there's a disconnect, but I do think there's just a rigidity to the way that their team is structured, right? Joel does a lot of the heavy lifting. Tyrese Maxine Paul George will do that secondary and supplementary playmaking. Everyone else basically has one job each. It's like stand there, spot up, hit the boards, guard your man, right? Very simple instructions for like very baseline streamlined role players. When you don't have Joelle and Bd drawing double teams and kicking out, all of a sudden it's a lot of Caleb Martin's side step threes.

And yeah, those are not going to go in. It's just not going to work. I think the alarming part to the extent that there is one about this construction not working is Tyrese has a lot on his shoulders right now. He's putting up 30 a night. And the fact that their offense is still so horrendous, I think speaks to some of the overall construction there. But again, as long as Paul George and Joel and Bede are out there, those are not real problems, right? Like you're not overtaxing Eric Gordon if those guys are healthy. And so the version of this that works is the version that, as Kirk said, has Joel and Bede on the floor. And when Joel's on the floor, things tend to go pretty well, even if he's kind of the injured, limited, sometimes shell version of himself playing through things.

That guy is a massive draw on a defense and compromises everything around him to the point that he can create for other people. Yeah. Let me just say, like, this is a team, the three of the top four shooters, or Kelly Ubrae Jr. is shooting 16 times a night, Caleb Martin shooting 10 times a night. And Andre Drummond, guys, that's a one in 14. You know, what are we talking about? We haven't seen the real Sixers yet. And we need to. This is a Peter Principal roster, and this is a common thing in the NBA when two of your top three options are down,

you're going to see Kelly Ubre taking three shots. He probably shouldn't. You're going to see Caleb Martin taking two or three shots. He probably doesn't need to take when everybody's whole. So I'm with you guys. I'm ready to see it, though. It seems like the NBA started for everybody else two weeks ago, and in Philadelphia hasn't started yet. what it seems like. Yeah, I think we all agree there. I think my concern is that they base their

entire conception of the team around having those three guys or even two of them. And yeah, they haven't had two of them to start, but who's to say that they won't have two out later in the season? It's just like we look back to some of the star-studded teams of recent vintage. We're talking about like the big twos, the AD, LeBron, even like the Nets team before even Hardin got there, Kyrie and KD, like the thing that felled them. And the clip. Paul George and Quai Leonard. The thing that undid them was injuries. The fact that they didn't have the death that was stain them.

It wasn't that there was some sort of like one ball problem that they couldn't figure it out. We're past that to the point where it's like superstars coming together is good pretty much every single time. It's just like the injuries are always going to be present there and it's hard to really account for them. And that's why I'm kind of like more mixed than I should be at this point because I was pretty high in Philly coming into the season. Now I'm like, if this is just going to be a constant loom. presence? Like, how am I ever going to feel good about this? Not only as like someone from a far, but even as a fan watching this on the ground. Well, let me just say, and to kind of tie these two conversations together about what's happening in Philly right now, Joel Embed is the

centerpiece of your team. He doesn't play every game. He doesn't end seasons healthy very often. And so long as that is the case, you're going to be walking on this razor's edge. And the one time you fucking nail it, you might well win the title. Like if Joel does end a season, healthy with this kind of team around him, you could win everything. And you're just hoping that this year is that year and that for as nasty as it started, ultimately things will get cleaned up with those guys

healthy on the floor. But yeah, if Paul George is out, if Maxi is out, that's tough. If Joel Embed is out, you lose. Like, you just will not go anywhere. So I think a lot of teams are in that positions with their stars to begin with. This just happens to be a star who gets hurt a lot. Daryl loves those title margins,

you know, and he's willing to push them as much as possible if he just has like a 1% odd better chance of winning the title. And so this is probably the most extreme case yet and frankly he's had a lot of extreme cases. But we should talk about the team that seems very clearly

a title contender at this point. We're talking about the Oklahoma City Thunder. I picked them to win the finals this year. Rob, you had them in the finals. I picked them to win. Oh, did you? Okay. I did. Yeah, yeah. I said they would beat, I said the Celtics would get there, but be injured out of gas, have all of the repeating concerns.

and that the young the young thunder legs might take them over the top okay kirk how did you feel about the thunder coming into the season and what's kind of jumped out to you about them thus far i thought they were going to suck honestly no i knew they were going to be a masterpiece they've been a masterpiece in the making for a while so i'm not surprised these are these are the dudes who we all thought were going to be the best team in the western conference before the season started They have the top MVP candidate right now and the best defense in the league. If you've been following the NBA for a minute, that's a pretty good combination. They're deep.

They have a good coach. And more important than almost all of that is they seem to play hard and play for one another. Unlike sort of the vibes in Philadelphia, these guys can't wait to get back out there and show another team how good they are on both ends of the court. So, no, I joke, I had them going to the finals. I think I still have Boston over them, but I'm not mad. and there's a few stats that we'll get to. But geez, man, like, they're undefeated, and it hasn't been close. Yeah.

They haven't had a close game yet. So they couldn't have asked for a better start. I think the fact that the number one defense in the league also is not particularly close. They are running away with that kind of margin right now. And when you watch them, the word that comes to mind for me often is just ferocious. It's the timing of Alex Caruso and Lou Dord and Kaysen Wallace off the ball, swarming, doubling, causing turnovers. I think it's just hard

if you're playing against the thunder to ever feel safe when you're on the floor. Like if you turn your back in a spin or a half spin move, somebody's going to be right there when you turn around. And that feeling,

I think, unsettles even the best players in the league, even the best offenses in the league. They take you out of your rhythm so well. So they currently have a 95.1 defensive reading, which is six points better

than number two, Golden State, which we've got to talk about Golden State at some point. I don't know how they're still number two on that leaderboard. The last time a defense has been that low was 2003-04 Spurs. So before the hand-checking rolls, now I think we would all agree that it probably won't end up this low, right?

But I do think they have a chance to be the first under 100 points per possession defense that we've had since the Spurs, again, because it's always the Spurs in 2015, 2016. I just like I love what they've built there. And I think a lot about the Harden Ball Houston team, where, again, again, Again, Darry taking the switching defense from Golden State and taking to its logical extreme where he had a lot of fire plug, switchable, like sturdy, like bolder sorts of guys, PJ Tucker being the totem for that defense, but also Eric Gordon, where he was just stout and strong and able to hold up against switches. You couldn't really like punish him with the big. You could also plow through screens. Like the Thunder have an entire roster of those guys.

They're all mobile. They're all long. They all have really. really good hands. They all play together, as Kirk was alluding to, but they're also strong as hell. And so to watch Dort just like plow through screens when you're trying to get them off the ball is incredible. And so Kirk, I have to wonder like, this seems legit. Not only like, will they be number one, but it almost seems like they have the potential to be a historic defense. Yeah, I think there have been 93 games I wrote down today. There have been 93 games in the league so far this year. And only 10 times has the team scored 95 or fewer points. OKC's been the defense in four of those 10 games. And they've only played six games. They've only played six games. They held

Denver to 87. They held the clippers to 92, the spurs to 93, and the bowls to 95. And then the big, the biggest name that hasn't come up specifically is Chet Holmgren, who might be the best statistical rim protector in the league in the young season. He's putting up Jared Allen type numbers at the rim. So in addition to all those perimeter dogs that you mentioned, And, you know, the addition to Hart and Steam, we haven't seen that. Yeah. And then Caruso, we have this emergence of Chet Holmgren, the defender, really taking his game to another level. If I'm not mistaken, he leads the league in blocks.

And the other markers that really jumps out to me, guys, they're averaging 13.3 steals per game. Nobody else is near that. They're leading the league in blocks and steals. no matter where you look, you come up with, oh my God, this might be the best defense we've seen in the NBA in a long time. I don't know if I'll go to the spurs of 03 or 04. It doesn't matter, but it feels like there's a defensive juggernaut being born in Oklahoma this season. And I think one of the reasons that's true is, look, Shea himself is not an amazing defender. I think he can chase, I think he can chase steel sometimes, I think can get a little lazy off ball, just in terms of watching,

like locked in on the wrong things. In the way that Starrs sometimes do, it's also carrying an incredible offensive load for this team. But the things he does well on defense play perfectly into the way the Thunder play. And so having that sort of synergy to parrot your, to borrow your Hardin comparison, Justin,

where it's like, yeah, James Hart's not a great defender, but watch him guard these bigs in the post, and all of a sudden it's not so bad. I think Shea has that quality where as part of this swarming hole, he turns into a really impactful defensive force. And if that guy's your worst defender on the floor, which I think is saying something about your team overall, you're in really good shape.

And so this is a team that has the swarming element. And we've seen them play super small sometimes behind Chet Holmgren. Like you have Chet as a starting room protector. You'll have Isaiah Hardinstein back at some point. We'll see kind of how he fits into the mix, whether he starts or comes off the bench, however they want to manage that. I guess we'll have some Usman-Dyang minutes in the meantime. But really, I'm kind of intrigued by this sort of like J-dub at the five,

Dort at the five, like... Caruso? Guarding D'Andre Aiton at center? Yeah, it's wild. That's the thing is these aren't against small ball bench fives. They're against DeAndre Aten. They're against Evita Zubots. Like, they're against Biggs.

And they're getting away with that stuff in a way that I think makes you feel really, really optimistic about the long-term chances there. Yeah. And I think you could write it off as maybe circumstantial because they have the injuries to the front court, obviously heart and scene, but also Jay Will, not J-W, J-Dub, J-Ly Williams. The other one is out. Chet is often in foul trouble. And so they'll have to go to that. But I also think it's just strategic in playing to their advantage because it's not just like one small ball defensive death lineup that they could turn on when they need it.

It's they have like 90 different combinations of this because they have all the similar types of guys on their bench. And so for instance, there's like Shay, Dorr, Caruso, Isaiah Joe, and J. Dub at center. That's like one lineup. But in the game I saw in Portland, they also threw out Shea, A.J. Mitchell, Kaysen Wallace, Dylan Jones and Alex Caruso. Because what they're doing is not only like trying to get guys playing with different combinations just for developmental purposes.

They're also trying to confuse the opponent. This is Mark Dagnol said this specifically. He wants to throw out different types of combinations so that the team that they're playing doesn't know what's coming. And so yeah, you might get J-Dub at center, but you might get Caruso and you don't even know what you're going to get to. And so I imagine Kirk, if you're like trying to play. against this.

Like, it's not only are a bunch of dogs swiping at everything on the court, but it's also the unpredictability factor that just, like, makes it so much tougher. Yeah, depth is so meaningful in the NBA right now. And the best teams have it and the worst teams don't. I've been thinking about a lot about this this season. Like every team, every contender has like their A group in the Philly case. It's Embed and Maxi and NPG. And then they have the B group.

And when we're seeing in places like Denver, or Milwaukee is the B group just isn't there. And behind Chet and SGA is this massive B group in Oklahoma City that's as deep and is versatile. So it gives you versatility and it gives you insurance. And one of the signs of truly great teams in this league for a long time has been like, can you win a game without your best player on the court? And teams like the Spurs when load management really became a thing, the answer to that question was, hell yeah, we could win with Tiago Splitter.

And we could win with, you know, Matt Bonner starting. And this was like a real cool sign that they were, they were deep. Oklahoma City is that team right now. That's one of the other things I would say about them is they can win in different ways with lineups that have never played together and unconventional offensive and defensive looks because all of their players are really good. And that seems so obvious. But we're seeing it manifesting.

If Shea doesn't play for a game or two, they're not going to fall off a Cliff, like the Sixers. That's the difference between good and great in an NBA that's more competitive than ever, guys. Especially when that depth has been cultivated so organically. Like, there are the Caruso's and eventually the Hardinsteins who are going to come in. But these guys, they were raised in this shit, like to play this versatile style. Not to bring up another Mark Dagnall quote, Justin. Like, honestly, I think he might be one of the best press conference coaches in the league.

So forgive me. But he had a take earlier this season, we were talking about. what's asked of Lou Dort on defense and how that is shifting from being the designated stopper on the ball against the go to the Lucas, the go-to creators,

to now he's going to be switching off more because of the way they play. He's going to be asked to do different things. There are so many guys in the Thunder for whom that is true, but also for whom it has been true for the last two or three years. As they've been kind of coming into their games

and this team has been coming into its own, they've been throwing out three-point guard lineups. They've been throwing out wing-heavy, looks. They've been throwing out all of these unconventional styles and they play that sort of driving kick flow where everyone is empowered to do stuff. And the result of that is all of a sudden everyone looks pretty ready to play.

Yeah, AJ Mitchell, 22 year old second round pick all of a sudden playing 14 minutes off the bench. They just like breed these guys. He's on a two way. Like AJ Mitchell's on a two way and he looks like he could make an all rookie team right now. And part of the unpredictability apparently according to Dagnall is the fact that guys on the bench don't know when they're going to play and how long they're going to play and thus they're going to be ready because they're always thinking I may need

to play 30 minutes or I may need to play five minutes. And so there is like just an overall just process, like worldview here where they're taking a different approach to all these things. It's like the importance of depth is not only just having guys around, but being able to develop them from the building block of AJ Mitchell, pretty good on defense and like gets the ball moving to eventually maybe being something else down the road. I think the other thing about this is, is space. I keep thinking about how well the thunder navigate space on the court because I think like the first half of this decade was about creating space, not only like adding the value of the three pointer, but also providing space for like your primary action, right? Now we're seeing everybody

playing with tons of space. And I think the thunder have been at the forefront of navigating it and using it to their advantage in ways that teams might not yet be. First, it was like the, the attackers from the perimeter, right? They had success with like the J-dub, even Giddy, Shea lineup just because they were able to create in fine lanes and whoever had the mismatch they would go for it. I think they're kind of doing the same thing defensively now, where you see the small guys being able to get from point A to point B pretty much unimpeded. And I saw it specifically in a play with Chet where it was against the Spurs. He, he got up on the perimeter on the switch and the play for the Spurs was to throw a lob to Wemby.

check got from the perimeter to Wembe to get the ball to swat it away before he got it basically unimpeded because Sohan is probably the only guy that would have tagged him and he didn't but Chris Paul the passer on the play was roaming out to create space on a kickout and the two other guys for the spurs were in the corners and so there was just like no one to maybe get physical with this lanky rim protector and so like he's able to cover so much ground just because there is so much space on the court. That's a really long-winded treatise on space there. But I do think, like, they maybe saw this coming,

that it's more about navigating this open terrain as much as it is creating it on your offense. I will say to hearken back to that specific game. I just don't think I've seen any act of violence on an NBA court quite like what Chet Holmgren did to the San Antonio Spurs and to Victor Webbenyama specifically. Xed him out just like was not a factor in that game, was not an element. And I think that's a part of Chet's overall impact and approach that we're going to have to come to terms with is this is not just a guy who's going to wall up the rim and be a part of a good structural defense.

But he has all of the bones of a defender who can completely excise star level bigs and challenge everything they do at every level in addition to all his other responsibilities. he's like, we talk about Wimby all the time as maybe an unprecedented, like, defensive player of the year candidate going forward this year and every year. I find it hard pressed to think that Ched is not going to be part of that conversation. And so long as that is the case, it's going to be a fun conversation to have every year. The NBA is back in Fandul. America's number one sports book wants you to catch all the action because right now Fandul is giving everyone three months of NBA League pass.

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Yeah, so we should talk about whether or not anyone can catch the thunder at this point, because they seem far and away the best team there. This is the second question I have just down on our Western Conference survey. Kirk, is there any team other than the thunder you think can challenge them for that top spot or is the gap pretty wide at this point? I think the gaps wide, assuming health, right? Assuming health, which is, you know, we all have to say that at this point every season.

But I think the West is deep. And I don't want to come out and say that this thing is over because Phoenix, Minnesota and Dallas are the top of my list for teams that are pretty terrifying if they really start going. Minnesota, I think, is still getting used to each other. Dallas, we knew what they turned into in the second half of last year, and blew through the conference playoffs. And then Phoenix deserves some credit for this start, Justin.

I think Mike Boodenholzer has found some things. Kevin Durant looks great. Obviously, Devin Booker is good. So I think those are the three teams that could do it. But if everything remains normal-ish, OKC's going to run away with the Western Conference. I think the first six games have proven that. And you picked them and Rob picked them, and I picked them to win the West for a reason or two.

None of those reasons have changed. If anything, the emergence of Chad on defense and the emergence of these defensive statistics that are showing up in Oklahoma City's box scores are just further proof that this team is on a different level than their competitors. So I'm going to say nobody's going to catch them unless something happens, probably to Shea. Yeah, I think the combination of that elite defense, the MVP quality to Shea that Kirk pointed out, like if you have those two things, you tend to win a hell of a lot of games.

games. But the other part of the depth that I think we've talked around, but maybe not pointed out explicitly, is there are just a lot of guys on this team who could potentially do a little bit more when they need to. Over 82 games, I have a hard time seeing how any team's going to catch them in the playoffs. I think that's where particularly Dallas and Phoenix are interesting to me. It's like if you want to think about what sorts of formula, like what formula could be challenging to the way the Thunder play. We saw Dallas do it. Like we saw even in a series where the Mavericks did not play terribly well, but they got enough out of their role guys. And if anything, those role guys are only more emboldened now, I haven't gone to the finals.

They're only deeper in their ranks adding Clay Thompson and Najee Marshall and those guys. I think Dallas is a better, deeper team than they were a year ago. And as soon as Luke is scoring and percentages kind of tick up, I think it'll reflect that even more so. But Phoenix is a team that when you want to get down to the basics of what can bother a switchy disruptive defense, it's probably the best version of the Suns. Elite shot making, now a healthier overall shot profile, shooting a ton of threes relative to what they were last year. Justin, it feels like that's the kind of thing

that could at least give the Thunder some trouble. Yeah, the bones of good offense are here for the Suns now. Like, for some reason, they're 16th on offense thus far. I think it's because a couple guys, the shots just aren't falling at this point. But to your point, 10th and three-point attempts, huge jump from last year.

It's almost eight more than they were last season. also the ball is moving. It just isn't sticking enough. They're actually first and assist percentage in the NBA right now. And like it speaks to how like I didn't track time of possession or anything like that, but it just seems like guys aren't holding it as long as they did last season, Rob, you know? And yet you gruffed when I compared you to Tyos Jones before this podcast started. How dare you?

I just think I have a little bit more to my game. But, you know, if I'm just moving the ball, that's fine too. But no, it just seems like there's something different going on with this. sons. And I think the thing you have to feel good about right now, Kirk, is like, the defense is also there. I do wonder long term, like, whether those two things will flip because they have so many offensive players. And I worry more about, like, whether or not they have the stoppers on the perimeter. But so far, things are going well. Yeah, they need a shooting big. I think Mike Boodinholzer's signature offensive looks require it. And I'm not sure use of Nerkich

is the right piece for that scheme. I think that's the piece I'm watching the closest. I'd love for to figure that out because it gives us another great team. And it gives Kevin Durant another shot to really star in the playoffs. And dude, I think Bud was a great hire. And there's a bunch of coaches around the league that appear to have changed the cultures and the vibes in these organizations. He might not even be the number one guy, but he's doing a great job early. And it seems like they're playing with a better purpose.

They have Ryan Dunn, who's at very least a nice perimeter defensive piece for a team that desperately needed one. And obviously Jones at the point guard spot directing traffic, much like yourself, doing a great job at that in this podcast. But it makes a big difference. Just a few guys. And one of the themes of the year for me, again, is this A group and this B group.

And they have more depth, which allows them to survive an 82 game season, but also gives them defensive matchups that they could use or different versatility from night to night. And I think that if you have Phoenix isn't a best, better place. And like you said, I loved everything he said about Dallas. When it mattered most, Dallas was better than Oklahoma City last year. I just don't think anybody's catching Oklahoma City. Look, one of the things we talked about with the Phillies segment was like the brutality of the 82

game season is a main character in NBA basketball. And what we're talking about now is how Oklahoma City is perfectly constructed to take on that landscape and that brutality and win more games month to month than some of these thinner teams. And that's why I would say, no disrespect to Luca Donchitz or Kevin Durant, but that roster in Oklahoma City is just better positioned to survive the brutality of this six-month monster than anybody else out West. Yeah, and that's where I do worry a little bit with the Sons because so many of their top guys are a little duplicative where it's like, yeah, Grace and Allen, when he's hitting,

is a boon for any team coming off the bench. and I'm really happy that he just pretty much slammed muscle milk all summer, it seems like, because the guy is swallows hell right now. And so maybe he has the physicality to provide what we're saying that they need. It's just those bigger wings because I do think their ultimate best setting is going to be small, in air quotes, with Kevin Durant at center, especially if Nurkich isn't going to come to form as that shooting big, as Kirk was alluding to. And I just can't help but wonder, like, man, because I'm in Portland, like,

if they just had Tumani Kamara on this team, like he fits what they need better, for instance, than Allen, because I do think Tyos Jones, Beal, Grayson Allen, all good offensive players, but they are a little duplicative defensively, and you give up a lot of size that way. And so Dunn is huge for this team. I don't think it's a surprise that they're so good on defense because he was spotting for Bradley Beal in the starting lineup before. I do worry long term whether or not he could hit the shots he needs to just stay on the court.

like I think he was 0 for four in the game over the weekend. And it's just like, are we seeing just a flash in the pan with his good early shooting? Or is that like the real Ryan Dunn? Because I think that spot is really important. And to that point, Rob Mahoney, best player on the Phoenix Suns right now. Royce fucking O'Neill shooting 42.3% from 3. 20.2 net reading, my guy. Do you believe?

Royce O'Neill is fine. He's a fine NBA player. I'm not going to go as far as to say he's the best. player on the Phoenix Suns, perhaps? Better than Kevin Duran. Yeah. Definitively. Look, he is a factor in this overall tapestry of the relative depth that the

sons have. Like, they have a lot of players we like. They have a lot of real NBA talent and real NBA spacers. If anything, they have the opposite problem, which is they're kind of missing in the bud mold that central downhill force, right? They don't have the Janus. They have a lot of guys who want to take jumpers and it can look beautiful and the orchestration can be perfect. And if anything, I would say so far, they've been a little up and down

in sort of like fourth quarter crunch time situations this season. That is a massive improvement over last year where they were just down, down, down all the time. They just could not get their offense in order because they didn't have the, they didn't have any lead guards on the floor. They didn't have anyone going to the basket. It was so jumper reliant that they kind of stalled out. They've been able to find their flow in some of those situations. But they have the Royce O'Neils. They have the Kevin Durrance. They have the Devin Bookers. They have all these guys who can shoot. will somebody go to the rim when it matters? It's still kind of a perpetual question for them.

And if anything, if you're thinking about the OKC counterpoint, man, a really tough switching defense is not going to make that any easier on you. Like, you're not turning the corner on Case and Wallace. It's just like not happening. And so even if you do, Chet's going to be there waiting for you. I think in some ways that positions the Sons to work around with the Thunder do well, but also like where are the easy points coming from for this team when it matters is something we're going to be monitoring all season.

Yeah, that's the signature stat that, comes out to me with Phoenix guys, and you mentioned it. I just wanted to point it out with some stats. Like they rank dead last in the NBA and layups per 100 possessions by a mile. They do not pressure the rim. They love their jump shots. And this has been a big issue for them. There's not a lot of easy money to borrow the term from Kevin himself on that basketball court without dunks and layups.

And right now, they are by far the least pressuring team in the NBA. Yeah, and that's an interesting counter to Dallas, because that's the other team. I think we're talking around here. Obviously, they have the blueprint down. They've changed some guys on the periphery, but clearly, like, things just work through Kyrie and Luca like they always have. That is my, like, one concern is that in a game against Houston, they scored 102 points. And like Houston's defense is very good. But they almost seem like the bad version that you worry about where it's like, they're so dependent on those two guys to create things that it's just like, where is that other guy going to come from? is Jaden Hardy going to ultimately be that guy? Spencer Dinwiddie has been fine thus far, but it seems like they're leaning on him as a crush, as they have in the past, quite frankly, because they don't have that. The one thing I do like Rob is they did supplement those guys

with a lot of live bodies. Like, Naji Marshall is just energy, like all the time just going balls to the wall. He's great. Even quitting Grimes, who can kind of wax and Wayne in that regard, was like really on it last game on Sunday night when they played the magic,

a game that lasted all of, 10 minutes before they blew them off the court because the magic can't score without Paul Bencaro. But they did like, they got the right guys to come up around there where it feels like they're going to pace through a regular season a little bit better than they had previously where they were, you know, they changed their team on the fly and whatnot. They know who they are. And if anything, I think they'll get better as it goes along.

And I think they're a team that it's fair to be patient with in that way. Like, Luca Donchich knows how to play basketball. He knows how to operate with this team, with this roster in this kind of space. I'm not worried about it. You know, the shooting finally ticked up against the magic. That's great. Even if they're down for a little bit, that's fine. Like, this is a team that understands its construction.

Derek lively maybe isn't playing as much as people like us would like. Ultimately, when the games matter, I suspect he will. And this is the thing where it's going to be a long game for so many of these teams. Dallas among them, I don't want to give short shrift in Minnesota here too, where I'm a little concerned about their spacing, even with Julius Randall playing well, even with Ant bombing away from beyond the arc. there's a lot to figure out there and their defense just has not been up to its previous standards so far. They have some stuff to sort out.

But guess what? They got a hell of a lot of games to get through that. And ultimately you trust the talent. Ultimately, you want to believe in the benefit of the doubt for all of these groups. What's tough is the Thunder are on it from game one. And they are probably more talented than you two. And if those things are both true, it's going to be really tough sledding. Kirk, what have you thought about Minnesota thus far?

Because they're kind of the third team, as Rob was saying, like, that we haven't really hit here. Yeah, I mean, I was sort of in favor of the big trade right before the season for them for financial reasons, but also depth, which is one of our themes today. I like getting two good players for the price of one. I'm giving them time to figure it out. This is a strange piece, especially in Randall, to add to the equation there with not much training camp and not much familiarity to get off the ground with it. So, dude, this is one where I'm going to say it's November 4th. Like, let's take a beat here and let these guys figure it out. I think the Dallas conversation is especially prescient.

That team didn't figure it out until February last year, maybe even March, and then ran the table through the Western Conference. So I think Minnesota deserves the right to do the same. I really loved how they finished the game against Denver the other night. You know, Christian Brown just absolutely dunks all over Rudy. One of the dunks of the season, but the inconvenient truth is 17-4 run the other way. Minnesota comes back. They poke the bear. That was their best sort of stretch of basketball all year.

And they stole that game back, I think, from a Denver team that was really hungry to have that victory themselves. So I still think their ceiling is very high. If they figure it out and it all clicks and DeVincenzo comes in and it gives them another piece, yeah, they're contenders. But I did not expect them to be great this early in the season. I'm not going to hold it against them that they have a couple blemishes on their early season resume guys.

I would like to throw out one item of concern for the Minnesota Timberwolves that is extremely painful to me personally, so please respect my privacy at this time. Mike Conley has not looked good. Not look good. And I think some of that is in playing to their depth and in bringing

in someone like Randall specifically who is more of a facilitator as a big who's going to have the ball in his hands in wanting to trust Dante DeVincenzo to create, there's just less for Mike Conley to do with this team and it leads a lot to a very small player just kind of standing around on the perimeter without a lot to contribute. And I thought he's been really instrumental to them in seasons past in terms of getting them

calm down in situations where they needed to be calmed down. But now Anthony Edwards is a year older, is a year more confident as a creator, maybe needs the training wheels a little bit less than he used to, would not be surprised if the like the predominant finishing lineup for the Wolves ultimately is Dante at point or or aunt at point, however you want to consider that. But Mike Conley has to play better because they need him to be a part of this rotation regardless. They need him to be a steadying force, whether it's with the starters of the bench or ultimately whoever he plays with. But it just hasn't gone great.

Well, it also compounds the issue that they just won't play their rookies. They finally got into the court against the spurs. But it almost felt like they had to really like hit the switch in order to give them run. And so if Conley is already starting to show signs of wear and tear and he should at this point, given his age and experience. experience, like putting the cap on Dillingham and Terran Shannon is a little perplexing. And that's why the loss of the Spurs coming off of the triumphant win against Denver was kind of a kick in the nuts there where it's like, this is a game, classic trap game and like the Spurs is your credit. I want to talk about the Spurs because I think like it's hard to play the Spurs on a

back-to-back like that. It's just like I would have liked to see Julius Randall kind of take over that game and had such a triumphant performance against Denver. That's where Randall can just play bully ball and make things happen. You're hoping like that would be his advantage to win those like sleepy Saturday night games and then just to not even take advantage of the depth that you provide. Because I agree with Kirk. Like their nine is like solid or at least they're eight. They're cycling through the nine with Ingalls and Monat there. But to just not play the rookies when you have that like live energy and just give them a couple minutes. And the way that we talked about the thunder up top, it's just like it's a little perplexing. I assume down the road it'll be more of a thing there,

but like you have a highly drafted rookie who could provide like the punch you need and the energy you need on that specific type of game like why not use it? Yeah, I was surprised I haven't seen. I mean, especially off the bench when you need points. But yeah, I think one of the things that Rob was talking about is really important is this,

how adding Julius Randall affects Mike Conley. I think this is a really interesting question. Does it mean Mike Conley is a bench player? Does it mean, you know, and Ants evolution. It's just, that's what I'm talking about, guys. It's like, who, who's going to do what here?

It's unanswered. I agree with you, Justin. That was a schedule loss. I mean, coming off of a game, where was that, Denver or Minnesota, I forget. Was that- Minnesota and then-C-Annecetonia. Either one, that's ridiculous. Like, those are the exact games that are very, very hard to win.

You get off a plane after a game like that and have to play anybody. The Washington Generals would be a tough W in that situation, I think. But so, yeah, not, again, I'm not worried about. this team. They're going to figure it out. They have good coaches. They have Rudy Gobert and Anthony Edwards. They have Julius Randall. They have pro basketball players up and down the roster. I don't put them on OKC's level, but I put them as a very high-sealing Western Conference team and a contender to be sure. Yeah. Well, since we're kind of talking around the Spurs, I didn't want to talk about them just a little bit. The next question on the

docket here is what's intriguing West start has the most staying power. And now the Spurs are three in three. But I do think part of that schedule loss was playing the Spurs because the Spurs just have such a high floor at this situation or this point of the season. We should mention Pop is out indefinitely at this point with a health issue.

Mitch Johnson is stepping in there. He's a long-term assistant. That's something to keep track of. We wish Pop well, obviously. But clearly, like, there's a lot here with the institution to get them through sort of a game with Minnesota that, frankly, they shouldn't have won. I think it was telling

that Randall, for instance, tried to attack Webbenyama, and he just, like, is not the player you can bully ball. Even if you're getting into his chest, he still has the length of, like, a normal rim protector. You go from Wembe to, like, Clint Capella, and it's just still not going to happen. And so I do think the spurs catch teams a lot in that regard. And I just look around and see how much the willing ball movement of both Wembe and Chris Paul is filtering down to the rest of the roster to the point where Jeremy Sohan, like, is a lot more viable with that starting. unit. Now, a fully engaged Jeremy Sohan could sometimes be a detriment to your team. And we saw that happened when he was basically like just dragging Jamie McDaniels down and he was getting into a lot of

scuffles, I'll say. But he also looked free like and he's cutting and guys like Chris Paul and Wembe are going to hit him. And so he's like, he's almost optimized in a way that he wasn't before when the spurs barely could scrape together point guard minutes. Now it seems like you get the best of him in addition to some of these other guys. Yeah, I mean, I hear high floor. I hear Chris Paul's music for sure. Like the collective playmaking of this team is so much better than it used to be. And that's the thing about the Jeremy Sohans of the world.

Like the weirder the players you have and the weirder your roster is, the more you need not only great passers to help navigate that, great passers to put Jeremy Sohan in good scoring positions, which I'll say the Spurs have done very successfully. Like he is a strange player to place within an offense. But I think he's doing a good job of finding the pockets, and they're doing a good job of finding him. And that's sort of indicative of what you're talking about, Justin. Like, if you have that sort of cohesion where you can make sense of even the

weirder players on your team, you're going to be in a pretty good place. I don't know if you're going to be at a 500 place, but you're going to be at a pretty good one. For me, it's like they're a top five defense and a bottom five offense. And can they find some offense here? Because even if you take the, I feel like the vision of this team for the next five years is to be one of the better defenses in the league. And I think that's where this is going. If they can just be a competent league average offense, that's great.

If you're the 15th best offense and the fifth best defense, you're a playoff team, no matter what. And I think that's the goal. I'm a little bit disappointed on the offensive side of the court, how they're deploying Wemnon Yama, it's gotten some attention, too much post up. And then Sohan, I think, embodies where this team is right now. He's very exciting. he's much better on defense and his offense

it leaves a lot to be desired but if he can figure out the offense just like the team at large they're going to be great so they need to click on Jeremy so on especially as a shooter because right now he's just not spacing the floor yeah and Justin you rightly called me out for this

on a recent pod where I was somewhat encouraged by some of the touches Wembe was getting specifically the ease of some of the transition stuff him running a couple like quick lobs from with Chris Paul in the Houston game in particular. And like it looked like the low hanging fruit was finally there. And they were finally ready to grasp it. And then you watch every other Spurs game and that's just not the case.

It just has been what's going on there. I mean, it's the development in the future colliding head on with the present, which is like if you're going to give Wemby the space to shoot those, he should shoot those because that has to be an arsenal in his game because it opens up not only everything for him getting, getting those pain touches that you're talking about, of the entire offense. And so, like, I expect him to take more threes. He's almost at seven a game at this point. See it going up. I could also see the three point percentage going down. It's in the 20s right now, and he isn't a particularly good one. But he should keep shooting those because, like,

that should be a part of his game. And so it's almost like the spurs have developed the stability to let players freak flags fly a little bit. And you're seeing it with Sohan like finally tapping into the sohanness that we've all kind of expected and have been waiting for. With Wembe, they're doing the same thing. It's just unfortunate that he has to play through some mistakes before he gets to the good juicy stuff that we're all waiting for. Well, and those two things are tied together too. Like, Jeremy Sohan can't play the way he plays

if Victor Webbenyama is not a three point threat. Like, they don't work together. They don't have a lot of shooting. Yeah. If he's not respected as a shooter. And even though Wemby's percentages are what they are, people do respect him as a shooter. Like defenders are still closing to him. They're still staying attached to him. As usual, that honestly matters more than whether

you're making them. Yeah. Kirk, is there another West intriguing start that you think might have some staying power here? Yeah, we had a team we haven't talked about, which is if you look at the game through net rating is the Golden State Warriors are one of the best teams in the league so far. And it's a very surprising result. I think Golden State, if Stefan can return and run that offense guys, and I think

Draymond running a defense is a pretty great formula. I'm not saying they're in that top group in the West, but they're better than I thought they'd be. And Pods in particular is having one of the breakout performances of this young season. This is a team that's pretty deep as well. I wouldn't say deep with greatness, but deep with goodness, if that makes sense. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things with Buddy Heald, who is shooting better than expected, but like Steve Kerr deserves some credit. Like, if you give him a good shooter, he's going to get that shooter good looks and with Draymond and that offense. This is an intriguing team and they're playing much better than I thought. They have

an absolute gauntlet this week. You know, they start the week at Washington, but then they play at Boston, at Cleveland, and at OKC by the time next Monday rolls around. Those three games on the road, I think, are going to show us if this is real or not. But credit to Steve Kerr, credit to Pods, credit to Draymond, the defensive indicators are the strongest thing going right now. And when this team has been great guys. We know they've had a great defense to go with all the threes. So that's a team that I'm sort of obsessed with and I'll be watching very closely this week. Curious to hear what you guys think about the Warriors early on.

Yeah, they were my pick as well. I think in part, I expect Steph to be great. I expect the core of the team that has been there to work. I didn't know that you could plug and play Buddy Healed quite like this. And they're maybe reliant on him to a degree that is not ultimately healthy for them. but has been very good for them so far. What's been most promising is on ball defense. They are keeping everyone in front of them to a degree that keeps them out of rotation

that makes all the jobs of everyone on defense so much easier. It's what's facilitating, like this overall kind of lockup that they're putting teams through. And granted, have not played a murderer's row of offensive opponents yet. That's why this upcoming schedule, I think in particular, the Boston and Cleveland matchups. But OKC, as we've talked about, is a sleeping giant, if not quite there in terms of the overall metrics offensively just yet. How they stand up in those matchups. I can't wait to see because the defense has been there.

It's been so reassuring. And as far as their overall good depth, they have 12 to 13 actual NBA players. And some of those guys may not ultimately play when Steph comes back and De Anthony Melton comes back. We'll have to see. But Lindy Waters, the third, Justin, showing up, the hall pass himself,

giving them good minutes. When Lindy Waters came off the bench and we should mention the bench is like two guys at this point who aren't playing and then just had immediate impact. You knew something was a foot here. They're just like deeper than every team. The depth is an amazing part of this. Like Kurt said, there's just like no dead spots and everything that they have. And so to not sacrifice anything, like you just keep flowing to the point where the rockets, they stormed back in that game the other night. But like the Warriors got on them very quickly because they just can just cycle through these things. And then the other thing on top of all

this is just Andrew Wiggins. Like, Steph not being there created a vacuum for a guy to, frankly, just score because a lot of these guys are ball movers who want to play the right way. You need guys to put the ball in the bucket. And Buddy Heald is definitely going to do that. And Wiggins has done that thus far. And it's just like the difference between last year and this year, yeah, some of the new faces there. But Wiggins playing like the player they thought they were getting after the 22 finals is just transformative for this team. If they have a secondary star, or something close to that, then all of a sudden this team is going to compete on a higher level.

And it's just like, it doesn't surprise me. And I'm happy to see it because it's not just the scoring, which has been good for Wiggins. It's just the activity. Like, he's engaged in these games. And it seems like he's up to being the guy when Steph isn't there,

which hasn't been the case for two years at this point, Kirk. Yeah, two years. And I think he looks great. But the other thing with that depth, when I look at this roster in particular, and I talked about the A group and the B groups enough on this podcast. But their B group is so long and deep, I think they could make a move here.

And so when I look at potential trade teams around the NBA, this is potentially team number one. You have a 36-year-old superstar, changed basketball forever. If they feel indebted to give him one more run, this roster is also really healthy trade assets. And they could get stronger in their starting five somehow. I don't have anything laid out for you guys yet. but when I look at these pieces, and Rob said that some of these guys aren't going to play.

They're too good of NBA players not to play. Whoever is the ninth or tenth or eleventh man on this roster who's sitting out is too good. There's too many other teams that would kill for that guy in the rotation. Milwaukee would kill for the eighth best warrior right now, I promise you. And so you can look at teams around the league and say, man, the Golden State Warriors are a really good trade partner right now. and they could use it to get to level up one more time for Steph. And so I love this team. I'm a little skeptical if I had to say that they're going to win these Boston and Cleveland games.

But dude, even if they win one or two of these, through that OKC game, if they win one or two, I'll feel really good about that team. And they're an intriguing team in the West in that sort of second tier for sure. Yeah, I'm not ruling anything out for them at this point. Just because I was expecting, particularly while Steph was out, they're just not going to have enough. They're going to be fun and plucky and they're going to play hard

and they're going to play Steve Kerr's way, but ultimately maybe have some failing efforts in those games. They just handled the Pelicans really decisively and granted a shorthanded Pelicans team, but still. And I think the confidence they're playing with

in addition to all these things, it goes a long way. And I agree with you, Kirk. Like, they are a great trade candidate. I think you could package a couple of these guys together and intrigue any number of potential trade partners. In the meantime,

you're also taking mileage off of Steph and off of Dremont where they don't have to play massive minutes at huge roles every single night. Like Dremont Green's playing like 27 minutes a game for this team right now. Some of that's because they've had great margins and have been able to kind of put the subs in. But

man, that's exactly where you want to be with your veterans, especially guys like Dremont who, when it counts, are going to have to play above his usual position. Like he's going to have to play a lot of five for them ultimately. And the longer you can stave off those realities, I think the better off you're going to be. The pelicans are intriguing for their own special

way, as they typically are around this time of year when Brandon Boston is one of their crucial players. Oh, boy. Yeah. But you're right. The Warriors could easily be three and four right now. They could have just blown those games and we'd be talking about them. Oh, no, they're facing this gauntlet. Maybe they're going to be like 10th in the West after this run. But they're showing some stuff here. I did want to talk briefly before we go here about the worst team in the NBA who happens to be in the Western Conference. And that's the Utah Jazz, because they're the only winless team in the NBA thus far. I had said to Rob in the back of an Uber after I had seen Utah and Portland go toe to toe in a preseason till in which the jazz got completely blown off the floor that the jazz

might be pretty bad. And I think that's coming to bear here where it's they just don't have a lot of adult talent. And so I think we had so much faith in the institution and Will Hardy that they would be able to coach them up. But Rob, it just doesn't seem like there's a lot to coach up here to the point where it's like, they've lost Taylor Hendricks to a gruesome injury, wish that guy well. But like, after that, it's like the Kyle Philphevip Kowski's show pretty quickly. Took me a bit to get there where we got there. You got there. I love the humble brag, by the way.

You did call this. I would love to get the interview with the Uber driver who was listening to us talk about the nuances of Portland and Utah's rotation in the back of that Uber. Tough scenes for us. We are indeed that depraved. I hate to admit it. You were right. This team is so bad. like, you know, the same margin we were talking about OKC

lapping the league defensively at the top. Utah is the same offensively at the bottom. They are so clearly the worst offense in the league. And I think worse than that, they look absolutely purposeless out there. And you could say this of Utah teams past that even ups and downs, ebbs and flows, guys in and out of the lineup, they had good collaborative movement,

despite the fact that the team wasn't going anywhere. They're still moving around a bunch, but it feels aimless. It's like the difference between, a team searching for the best shot and just kind of like meandering through possessions. And that's where they feel right now. They are cross purposes. They don't have clear goals.

They're like they don't go anywhere with the ball. And combine that with the fact that they're now playing like two and three rookies and lineups together at a time. Guess what? Your offense is going to be very bad and you're going to lose an awful lot of games in a way that probably behooves the overall health of the organization vis-a-vis our friend Cooper flag. Yeah, I have a crazy stat to back up all these crazy assertions.

who's the best team in the NBA right now? Well, according to net rating, it's not the Warriors or the Thunder. It's whoever is playing the Utah Jazz. The Utah Jazz's net rating is more negative than the Warriors and Thunders is positive. So in other words, their opponents are just dominating on a nightly basis. And it's, it's, these guys aren't, again, talking about depth. They're starting five is a nice rotation for some other. team like three through eight maybe four through nine. Keante George is shooting more shots than anybody

and he is shooting 24% from the three point line. It's not a good thing. Will Hardy, one of my favorite people in the NBA, one of the best young coaches, but like Rob's saying, there's only so much you can do with the ingredients that they brought home from the grocery store there. So I don't know what we can expect other than I think the goal in Utah is pretty simple this year. And They might be achieving it, guys. I don't think they're setting out to dominate the NBA. But, yeah, it is bad. It is bad.

And if your team is in a slump, just hope that you get the jazz coming to town or you go to Salt Lake City because it's going to be, they're going to be one of the better slump busters in the NBA this year. Justin, this team won 31 games last season. And it's kind of the same team. Will they win three this year? I'm waiting with baited breath to see if they could pull off the third win. And I don't really bring this up to bag on the jazz, although I do a little bit because they have been absolutely putrid.

But they are so definitively bad in a way that even bad teams aren't in the NBA at this point. Like if we were to try to come up with the next worst team, like by record, it's the Sixers in the Bucks. Two teams we expected to be not only in the playoffs, but at the top of the east of the season. We expect at least some rebounding there, at least in Philly. We'll see about the Bucks. They came really close against the calves, but ultimately just got punched in the gut there with Donovan Mitchell's last. shot. But from there, it's like Portland, Detroit, Toronto. These are bad teams, but they're not like putrid to the point like we're talking about depth. Like Portland goes 12 deep. They're about

to get Rob Williams. They're going to be even deeper. Detroit, yes, bad team. But like, in terms of like I just keep thinking about like even in the early 2000s, like a bad team was the Bobcats playing through Al Jefferson, like playing through the number one pick in recent years, Kate Cunningham, with a bunch of shooters and just trying to figure it out. That's not bad. It's just, like a degree of not as good. A bunch of air quotes shooters as seems to always be the case for the Pistons somehow.

You omitted the Washington Wizards who are in fact very bad. They may be the only team giving the Jazz a real run for their money. And you have to give these teams credit. Like they're being the first mover advantage in the tanking lottery.

Ultimately, maybe you have to drop more games now than the teams that are ultimately going to get there by February and March and April. Like anyone can lose games in March and April. It takes the really, the really dedicated organizations to start dropping them in October, November. And I credit the Jazz for their diligence.

I think the Wizards are clearly the second worst team in this competition. And credit to them, they won two games. The Jordan Pool, Kyle Kuzma, won two punch, has been effective in two of their five games somehow. But no, I think this is Utah's race to the bottom to lose, if that makes sense. And I don't see them. I don't know how many they'll win, Justin. That's a good question. I think they'll get to 12 or 15.

But yeah, it's pretty bad in Utah. And I know Will doesn't like losing. So I think this is going to be tough year for him. But ultimately, they're trying to build something for the future. And in the league we cover, this is the way to do that. And it can be pretty hard to watch. Yeah. I think what I would love to see is amid the losing,

can we see Keante George get back on track from this as we mentioned, just really putrid shooting start. Losing Taylor Hendricks for the year and what needed to be a big developmental season for him. Very, very tough to watch. Like, we wish him the best in the speediest recovery, but also a tough blow for the Jazz, who I think we're counting on him to be a piece of whatever they're building. You know, you flashed to a team like Washington and like, man, ball, he's got the fucking goods.

Like, he looks really good. It looks like a real NBA player. It looks like a real building block. It's hard to look at Utah and say, that guy is going to be a part. part of the next relevant Utah Jazz team. Lowry Marketing is contractually obligated to be here for the rest of this season and cannot be moved. Everyone else, I think, is probably a realistic trade candidate.

Your Colin Sexton should probably move the needle for somebody out there. You know, Jordan Clarkson may be less so. I'm sure somebody can talk themselves into John Collins at this point. Like, there are conversations to be had. Walker Kessler feels like a stable piece here. Other than that, I think there's a lot of wait and see. And that's what's tough in a season like this one is. Can you get any of this young talent?

And this is where I'm looking in particular at this cast of rookies. Can we get a Cody Williams pop for a month? You know, like, does he have that in him? Do the jazz have that in them? That's what I would love to see from Utah. I think if anyone's talking themselves into John Collins at this point, they should probably have their head checked. But point taken.

It's just weird because the jazz had been so competitive while rebuilding. And now it seems like they're almost redoing that where they're raising again and then starting. for scratch to the point where like the wizards seem more competent or at least like the vision is more clear because now they're just playing all the young guys that they've drafted more recently abroad in via trade whatever and it's like they're just letting them run and they're trying to figure it out whereas like the jazz are almost in between that step where they're like actually this isn't good enough despite bringing marketing back we're actually going to be worse right now sorry guys

who are already on this team and then we're going to turn the page there and so like I could see it being disjointed in a way that even the wizards who have won two games, both against the Hawks. So, you know, half wins is probably what they should have gotten against those injured Hawk teams. But, like, it just seems like there's more of a direction with Washington that's everyone's on

the same page as opposed to Utah where it's, like, a little discombobulated at this point. I think that's very generous to the Wizards. I could be. I don't know that everyone's on the same page, but there are some people on a page that behooves the organization. What everyone else is doing I don't really know. I'm not too worried about.

You know, I'm zeroing on my guy, but I think he's doing well. It's nice to know where the book is, you know, or that there is a book and you can go to the shelf and get it. Unfortunately, the jazz don't have that. All right. Well, with that torture metaphor, we'll pack it up here. Kirk, thanks for joining us. Do you feel, I don't know, after being in the group chat,

are you just like, oh, man, I'm just feeling more alive and ready to take on the NBA this season as a result? Yeah, I did. It feels like I got to watch more Utah, honestly. You guys go deep into the league pass abasement. And so, no, I usually just ignore those teams that are doing that. But it's great to see you guys and great to be with you. I can't wait to do this more throughout the season.

Thanks for having me all. Of course. And look, I think you are channeling the spirit of Waz by not watching the Utah Jazz play basketball. So you're exactly the replacement we needed today. Yeah, you know, I'm a good bench guy like Sam Presti would like. So throw a different lookout every once in a while. Well, thanks to Kirk. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production.

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