The Ringer NBA Show - The Evolution and Future of the NBA Big Man | Real Ones

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

Logan and Raja touch on last week’s marquee matchup between Nikola Jokic and Joel Embiid before discussing how big men in the NBA have evolved over the years (2:03). Later, they talk about what the future looks like for the league’s most dominant bigs (35:00). Finally, the guys close out with their Real Ones of the Week (47:00). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Associate Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady The 'Ringer NBA' squad is coming to Salt Lake City for NBA All-Star Weekend! Get your tickets here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, everybody? This is Logan Murdoch from Real On I have some big news to share. On Saturday, February 18th, the Ringer NBA show will be hitting the road for All-Star weekend for a live show in Salt Lake City. You heard that right. We are taping the pod in front of a live audience in Salt Lake next month and we want you to join us. Pull up on us at the stateroom in the heart of downtown Salt Lake. You can grab your tickets now at thestateroom.com. That's the stateroom.com. Doors open at 9 o'clock. Show is at 10. It's going to be a 21 and up event. come hang with the gang and chat midseason updates draft preview and even have a Q&A with us space is limited so grab your tickets while they last at the stateroom.com or click the link in the description of this show hope to see y'all in there what's popping logan murdock here raja bell

there roja how you doing bud i'm good a little earlier record today i got a little more energy let's let's get it popping let's get it popping man so last uh last podcast we were we were uh talking about LeBron and the Warriors and all these things. And I remember there was in the rundown, a question either from you or Kerm or Kai about the Yokic-M-B-M-B match-up from over the weekend. And I wasn't able to, I'm in big writing mode right now, so I wasn't able to fully see that in the moment. But I was watching a lot of highlights from that Yokic-M-Beed matchup where they combined

to score 71 points, a whole bunch of... rebounds and it was just a real old school type of big matchup that we were that the um that the league uh uses in a lot of their propaganda films back and from like you know the david robinson versus shack um the kareem versus um uh wilt type matchups it reminded me of a throwback of sort is what i'm saying to you and it got me wondering man just like how we value big man in the current age and what do they mean right now? And so when I watched those games, I just, I saw the importance of a big, I watched the game of between Embed and, uh, and Yolk. It's just, it was just like kind of a breath of fresh air to see two big men evolved in the space,

shooting threes and also having a, um, having a, uh, a more well-rounded game, but still be a big man as they're an identity. And I was just wondering like, how did we get here, Raja, where we go through, you know, the 90s and the 80s are like the golden era of big men where, you know, you have the Tim Duncan's, you have the David Robertses, the Shaquille O'Neils, the Pat Ewing's. And then you go into the 2000s where, excuse me, Hakeem O'Jewan, don't let me disrespect. All these bigs where they're back to the basket bigs. They are going to punish you in the paint. And then we, you know, in the early 2000s, the shacks and, you know, the Elijah Wans and all those guys, they kind of phase out. And you have this new big man. It's kind of a weird era where, like, Dwight Howard is, you know, a 6-9 center.

And, you know, we kind of like, I guess we legislated the big out of that. But now that's given away to this new big man, like the Januses and the and the and the and these guys that are super skilled. And, but you played in all these. How do we get from point A, which is, you know, the wilts and the Karim's down to the David Robertson and the shacks to where we are now with these fully formed skilled big man who now play not only in the paint, but around the three point line as well? It's a big question. Forgive me, no pun intended, but it is a big question.

It's got a pretty convoluted answer, but I'll try. There are a lot of factors that go into how we got to hear first and foremost, I think, was the evolution of the NBA rules. And Biggs at the time of the MJs and the Dominiques and the Larry Birds and other great stars were not only offensive weapons, but they were defensive caution signs for anyone trying to be in that paint. And they were allowed to basically operate in there with free reign of hammering you and making it very punitive to be in that space and you having to weigh the pluses and

minuses risk versus reward of going in there and catching 12 stitches across your eye a la la carmalone and um and i saya thomas right like we're going to really make you pay for being in here in a way that protects the pain and so the league as scoring obviously became what sold tickets and and it became you know about these these dollars tv dollars like they had to legislate some of that out. Right? And so as that starts to happen, that big, burly, less skilled, if you will, big.

There were some really skilled ones, but less overall skill. You would have bigs on your roster that didn't have the skill set of like a McAil or somebody like that. They were there just as enforcers. Like they became less advantageous to have because, you know, they couldn't do what they do.

They couldn't just be out there being hit men and banging you around. Like those became flagrants and kickouts of games and so on and so forth. Like they were trying to weed that out. out of the game. So that was, I think, the start of it. The second part of it was when the analytic wave came in and the devaluation of the three-point shot, I mean, of the mid-range shot. Like when you had those bigs on the court, again, it's very difficult to get into the paint

to score. Some of the greats could do it. But a lot of people made their living in the mid-range, not having to go in there. Like as MJ evolved as a player, right? Like less forays to the rim where he was getting hammered and more, yo, I'm just going to fade and knock down this mid-range too because it's it's healthier for me to do that. It's more sustainable. So as that, you know, as that starts getting weeded out of the game, right, then the valuation of layups and and threes increase, right? And to get those, we've got to get bodies out of the paint. We've got to get bodies out of the paint to allow, you know, enough true layups to take place. because when I got two bigs hanging out in there,

like it's almost impossible to get there to get the layup. And that takes away a three-point shooter from the equation. So now let's see if I can get four guys outside with maybe one big, right, making it easier to get in the paint, one less body, and another three-point shooter. And then it's just evolved from that to where we're now like, fuck it. Let's get them all out of there. We're going to have a wide open paint so anyone can get to the rim if they can. And now we've got five virtual three.

point threats when you're playing on a team with like an Embed and a yokeach at the five. You got five people that can get you that prize three point shot and keep the floor open in a way that you can get that that highly valued two point shot. So there was a lot of stuff that went into that. And then the training of the big because of that is the icing on the cake. Right. Like that's what that's what's produced these guys. Like as they've grown into an era of basketball that values different things,

they're trained differently. So, you know, when you come into my practice now, when we don't go bigs and smalls. When, like, we don't go bigs and smalls in practice. We work them all together. We work them all together. Because back in the day, it used to be like, yo, if you're a big, you're going to go on the other side of the court, shoot free throws and then do fucking mic and drills and do post-up drills, right? When I'm in college, bigs go down to work with two coaches on one end and they get all their skill

working and guards go down to the other end and we get all our skill work in. and they're two completely different skill sets. And so, you know, we'll do that for our, for our, for our, for our indie period of practice. And then we come together and we play as a team. I mean, in the NBA, we were still doing that, bigs and smalls, like bigs down here, smalls down here, you know? And so, I mean, while they still may do that in places, increasingly at the youth level, people come into my program and they could be six three in the sixth grade. They don't want to be a big. Yeah.

They want to be trained as a guard. And so I find the approach of training guards and bigs together and giving them both skill sets to be the best way to do it. Right? Because guards can post. You don't have to be a big to post. You get an advantage. You go in there and get to work.

But they all want to be trained as guards. How much of that has to do with it? I think you're a part of this, or at least your team was. You're a part of history, Roger, with the Phoenix Suns and how they kind of help, not legislate the big man out. They absolutely didn't. but doing that. But how do you think that from a human element, you touched on something really poignant

where these kids are, they don't want to be quote-unquote bigs. They want to be guards. And a lot of it has to do with what is propagated by the league in terms of what sells, right? And at least when I was growing up, the best players are the best ones that were sold every time were guards and or players like Dirk Nevinsky who was a big that can shoot and was a very skilled

big, right? Or even before that who Dirk Nevinsky was influenced by as Michael Jordan, who was a 6-6 guard, right? How much of that when we're because, you know, I look at Sports Illustrated articles from the 60s and stuff,

the big men was king. It was Will Chamberlain. It was George Miken. It was No threes. The closer you could get to the basket, the better. Exactly. Four three is a game, right? How much of Jordan's impact in those 90s,

those 90s teams and even Alan Iverson and Kobe Bryant and Tracey McGrady? How much did that really influence how the current crop of players see the game and want to play the game? From an overall perspective or from a positional perspective in terms of the larger players? Well, I think from a positional perspective to the larger players, to the larger players because no matter what, smaller players in general are going to be guards. Yeah. So here's what I like to do. And it's tough.

But I had this conversation with a guy last night when, you know, his son was at a seven-on-seven football practice. He's like 13. He's 6-3. And I have a really good eighth grade team that I was trying to, you know, talk to him about playing on. And he was like, well, you know, everywhere we've taken him, they want him to be a big. And he's not going to be a big. Like he's going to be about 6-5, which makes him a wing. And what I said to him was like, what we need to do.

do, at least in my estimation, big picture, is reframe the way we talk about, like, the game. Let's not even use big, let's just make them a basketball player, right? Let's just, let's, let's not talk about a guard versus a forward versus the center. Who gives a shit? We're all out there on the same court playing basketball. So like, let's get all skill sets to a point where if I ask you as a smaller statured player to go down on the block because the person guarding you is that much smaller than you because we have an advantage there, you have the capability of doing that, right? Or if because you're a larger and longer player, you have someone guarding you who's not his fleet of foot and he can't stick with you out on the perimeter, you have the skill set to go out

there and give us an advantage and cook, you know, in that space. And so like looking at it through the lens of position list, like I'm not labeling anyone, I think is it's kind of important if you're going to be successful today. But as far as MJ and those guys shaping the way the longer, more like bigger body player plays, it's what, it's what you see. It's what's being marketed to you. You know, it's what's being promoted. And so, you know, when scoring is at a premium and we got into this error of having all these wings that were, that were getting buckets and the flashiness was the crossovers and the ball handling and all of that was, you know, MJ's time, it wasn't all about the ball handling. It was about like the scoring.

And if you watch Kobe play, he wasn't an electrifying ball handler. Yeah. He was an assassin scoring the ball, but that's what he watched. Like, Mike was a score, not like a, not like a magician with the ball. But, you know, as Alan Iverson and dudes started coming up and the crossover became, like, we started getting into an era of scoring plus entertainment and having that thing on a string. And, you know, that became intoxicating to a lot of people, you know, like bigger players included. So you wind up with dudes that want to, they want to explore all those skill sets. and that's how you get it in Bede who can dance on the ball

and people like that that are just training to do things that they would not have been allowed to do in another error. They would have been put on the block and asked to just bang away. The other thing that happened was you touched on the Sons, from a defensive perspective,

when we played, you know, Yao Ming and Shaq, obviously were two of the opponents that we had to play before we traded for Shaq. In most of the games that we played Yao, Al had to come out early in the first quarter and was not an impact on any game we played that I can remember against Houston because he couldn't guard out in space. He was just too big. And he would literally, we would watch tape, and it would be like a joke of him going from

free throw line to free throw line as the pace of the game just was too quick for him to ever catch up to be an impact around the rim. So the very place that you have him for, he can't ever get to it because we're flying, you know, and he can't play out in space. And so the year that we lost in the Western Conference Finals to the Mavericks, the reason why a lot of us on that team thought it was our best chance to win a championship was because we were going to see the heat in the finals. And the heat wound up beating the Mavericks that year.

0-6, 05-06. Right. But we had blown the doors off of the heat twice that year because while Shack was great. They couldn't use him in the way that they needed to because it was too much pace and putting him out in the space was just leaving Steve Nash. We were on a pick and roll with Shaq and he's standing back

in the lane and Steve Nash is coming off of it. What's he doing? Bro, like if you're going to see, that's so cold because if you see either Shaq's going to lay out, because remember back in the day, Shaq wouldn't even he wouldn't even show on a pick and roll. He'd be like, no, I'm standing in the paint. So that means Nash is going to shoot a three and he's going to

make it more than he's not. He's going to blow your doors off that way. Or in the case of Shaq does show, Steve's going right by him. It's over. It's not even a question. Yeah, putting them in space with a team like ours that was playing scaled down size-wise and keeping the floor open, highlighted to some degree the need for a different kind of a larger player. Yeah.

You know, like that big, now you could still, if you could get us to slow it down and you'd have to be really good about grinding the game down and putting it inside. I'm not saying that people weren't successful at times, but over the course of time, we didn't allow too many people to do that. So people started seeing the need for, you know, more fluid bodies out there. Sure. It's interesting because you, when you first got in the league in the, in the, of the 01, the 01 season, you, it's, it's during, well, like during a time when Batumbo is traded

two-guards shack, right? Completely different. Completely different. And in a four-year period, when did you start to see that change, though, Ra, where, like, you're coming from the Sixers team that's like, okay, we are here to stop Shaquille O'Neal and other Biggs, and this is 01. We're talking about 05-06, which is a four- or five-year gap. It's not that long in time where the game completely turns itself on his head. When did you start to see the seeds of that? Yes, Shaq, dominant force in 01, literally just physically dominated in, and, you know,

in the paint. And, you know, DeKembe was defensive player of the year. And he was putting, they changed rules because of what he was doing to DeKembe in that series just physically, you know, dislodging from the posting, putting him in the bucket. Like, it was crazy. And there's no disrespect to Matumbo because Matumbo is one of the greatest one-on-one defenseman of all time. One of the greatest shot blockers of all time.

Deak was giving up 85 pounds. Yeah. Like, what do you mean, man? Like, Larry Brown told me to go down and double shack one time. I went down and I put two. arms, two hands hard on his forearm while he had the ball. And he took me, the ball and everything up to the rim with him. Yeah. I'm like, what, I mean, what am I supposed to do with that? So at that time, clearly everyone you had that, you had a bunch of bigs on every team. Um, I think as I got to Dallas,

it was that it was two years later when you saw Dirk at the four, right? And yeah, Dirk at the four was my first. It didn't happen just like that, though, because the league was still, we still had, you know, Sean Bradley out there. And, you know, you had, you know, Evan Eschmeyer. And there were still bigs, you know, I think, I want to say David Robinson.

Was David Robinson still playing? I mean, there were still a lot of bigs. Like, Vlade and Chris Weber were a duo. Like, you still had two teams with two bigs. But Dirk's ability to kind of stretch that floor a little bit. and I think Don Nelson, this was just me. I mean, the league, other teams might have been doing it, but this was my exposure to it.

Nelly would play at times, Walt Williams at the four, right? And you'd go with like Steve Nash, Nick Van Exel at the two, Mike Finley at the three, Walt Williams at the four, and Dirk at the five. Like, we were scaled all the way down, and it was really, really hard to guard that shit. That was my first intro that I went back to Utah. And when I got to the Sons and we were playing with Sean Marion at the four, even though Tricks didn't always love playing the four. I always say that was kind of the secret sauce.

But Tricks at the four and Amari at the five, the league didn't catch up for a minute, but it was on and popping. Bro, I'm as a viewer, as a young viewer watching that, I remember being like thinking through old habits and just being like, yo, man, put a big down there. Fucking Amari Stademar six, nine. just put a big down there. They'll dung on.

Why is this happening? It was just in real time of like, you guys really turned the league on its heads because of that. What was that like the first training camp? You're in Phoenix and you're like, oh, shit, this is not the basketball I grew up watching. And this is not the bad. This is some new shit.

When did you get to that point? Immediately. I sat with Mike, Colangelo, David Griffin. We were at dinner. My wife, their wives,

we were all sitting there. kind of pulled me back from the table a little bit, sat back in his chair, and he said something to me about how many threes had been vacated by the departure of Quinn Richardson and Joe Johnson and told me at the table that these, whatever the number was, it was a couple hundred threes that I needed to shoot this year. And I was coming off a year as just shooting like 45 threes. I was like, brother, I don't even know what that means. No coach has ever told me that he needs me to get up a set amount of threes. Like, I don't know if I can accommodate that, but he's He was pretty, the way he said it to me, I was like, okay, let's rock.

So were you at that point already really quickly before you get back to that dinner? Were you already at a point where you were transitioning to the, what we know now is a 3-and-D guy? Were you strictly a defender at that point? Where were you? At that point, I was a young defensive-minded player who in a situation in Utah that was kind of, you know, wide open because of the departure of Stockton and Malone. we were all asked to do different things offensively and explore who we were. So if you look at highlights of me in that Utah year, I did shoot threes, but I also got donks.

You know, like I also posted up. I played out of pick and roll. I did a lot of things offensively in Utah. So I wasn't sure exactly who I was. I definitely was not a three-point shooter. I would have never identified as a three-point shooter at that point because that's, I was shooting 30 to 43s a year. Most of my stuff was done, you know, in other ways, the way I had done.

it in college. But as we got into pickup games, and Mike articulated where he wanted me on the floor and how he wanted me to run the floor, I remember getting to the corner and being maybe three and a half feet lifted out of the corner. To me, that had been the corner my whole life. And Mike D. Antony stopped it and was like, I need you in the corner. And you know, I'm like, okay, well, I mean, where am I? And he's like, no, the corner is there. And he pointed like a foot and a half further into the corner, like almost in line with the backboard. Do you know what I mean? and he was adamant about like, this is how we have to space this floor.

Get to that spot, not three feet above that. Like, that started to shape the way I ran the floor, the way I saw we were going to play. And then as the ball started to find me within pickup games, and within the first few days of practice,

you start to realize where you're going to get your opportunities. And I was going to get a bunch of threes. If I just ran like hell and, you know, shot when I was open. And so it just morphed right into that, pretty quickly. Who was the tallest guy on your Phoenix Sun's team during that time? Who was the biggest person that was on your roster? I mean, we had Brian Grant one year. I mean, these are all like 610 people. Like you have Brian Grant, you know, Mari, I think is 610. We have Kurt Thomas and Tim Thomas.

Boris is 6-8. Like those would be our biggest guys. Like we weren't walking around with what I can't remember if we had seven footers. I mean, Sean Marks was a long, long, a long, probably 610, 611. Like those were our biggest players. And so like when you're getting to this, how did you have, like, your guard in this during this renaissance, you kind of spoke on how you had to adjust your game a little bit in terms of spacing. But like, how did your ideology change knowing that like, okay, I'm not playing with a super big person at this point. It's no longer, I'm going to throw it into the post and I'm going to get it right back and shoot off of it. It's now like I need to find spacing. The ball will now find me. How do you, how do you fix your brain to, because your whole life, you're seeing.

this is how you play basketball. This is how you play basketball. And you see this coach who's an innovator Mike Dan Tony. Like, nah, like this is how we're going to play basketball now. In your mind, did you have to get out of your own way in a lot of ways of what you thought basketball was to what it was becoming? Well, certainly. And I would say it was less on the offensive end and more on the defensive end because you're always used to funneling to some degree. your player, at least in the Sean Bradley days or the DeKhame Matumbo days and stuff,

you're funneling them to him and you know that he's there, right? And so, you know, the other thing was if they're not there, the league was like, hey, knock his ass down, make him get up and shoot free throws. And Mike was adamant. I fouled someone on the break once, and he jumped in my shit about fouling someone on the break. And I, you know, again, this was Jerry Sloan's message to me. Jerry Sloan might have played me more than he should have based on my skill level just because he knew I would run down there and tackle

someone and not give him a layup. But it's what he put stock in. You were such a Jerry Sloan guy. Oh my God. I love Jerry Sloan guy. I love Jerry Sloan. I love him. So when Mike's telling me, hey, let him make that layup if you have to foul him, we'll just get it out. We'll get three on the other end.

I'm like, wait, wait a minute. You're crazy. Like that makes no sense. that we're just going to give him these two points. But again, as we get into preseason, as we were scrimmaging with live refs and we have our inner squad, and this is bearing fruit now because, you know, I'm allowing the layup and I'm turning and I'm burning,

and I'm getting to the corner, and I'm in pistol action with Steve, and I flip it back to Steve, and I come off of this flare screen, and Steve whips the overhead pasting me, and I'm sitting on a three, and I cash out, and now we're up six four because I hit two threes and I gave you two free layups.

I'm like, oh, shit. Yeah. There's something to this. So offensively, like, it clicked right away because I was scoring more points than I had ever scored. I was getting more shots than I had ever gotten. So that's an easy one. Hey, you don't have to convince me that. Defensively, it took me a minute. Okay. And then it's interesting because when I see, you know, the Phoenix Suns who are this avatar for change and you guys get beaten by the spurs. Sorry, Roger. But you guys, you guys lose to the spurs who are definitely going through their own transitional period. We talked about this with Tim Duncan on the pod a few years. ago where the Spurs had to change because of you guys had to change their whole ideological approach, how they see the game. Was it kind of wild to see them like change on the fly while beating you at your own game where you have a guy like Tim Duncan, who is the modern big that can adjust to this type of game? And you're like, well, what the fuck? This is supposed to be all our time to do this. And then the Spurs kind of figure it out, but with a more traditional type big man. I wouldn't necessarily say they beat us at our own game.

They beat us. But they weren't doing it exactly like we were doing it. They, they had some issues. And that was going to be our Achilles heel, would be our interior defense and our stoutness on that side of the court. They had a lot of pieces that if you look back, and I'm just keeping it a buck. I was a decent NBA player, man.

I played for a decade and more. I average 10 points a game and the NBA double figures like people try to clown you know all the time but I wasn't bad I led the league in threes I was all defense team a couple years

I wasn't fucking Mano Genoblee though do you understand what I'm saying like they had players I wasn't Mike Finley and Mike Finley was over there you know I think they they we had good players I think you know

you got Tony Parker you got manager nobly you got Tim Duncan you know Robert Orie was still doing things you add Michael Finley to the mix Bruce Bowenley is elite defender. Like they had personnel that was really good.

And they had a lot of experience in situations like that. Those series were like right there. They just beat us. It wasn't necessarily how they were doing it. But the reason they beat us is because they were good. They had really good players. They were really well coached. They had more experience in those moments.

And they quite frankly executed just slightly better than us in some of those moments. Now there was just some luck. Yeah, there was some like, you know, that BS with Robert Orr and Boris and stat coming off the bench and the suspensions. Like, no one can account for that. The three that Tim Duncan hit to send it into overtime. Like, he had, it was his only three of the entire year. Dog.

That was luck. I loved him. That was luck. Tim Duncan was the king of the lucky bullshit shot. The three at the end of the game when he, like you just referenced, I'm thinking about, remember the 04 Fisher shot. People don't forget, people forget, before Derek Fisher hit that. shot with 0.4 seconds.

This motherfucker Tim Duncan hit a fadeaway shot over Shaquille O'Neal that was, I think he banked it in. It was some, it was the wildest shit. Tim had great luck, bro. It was a go. I mean, listen, I don't mean to diminish his. No, not at all. I would never, I would never do that.

But, I mean, if you, like, Tim was having a hard time in that series being consistent from the free throw line. Real talk. So, to think that, like, it wasn't lightweight fluky that he just caught a ball looked left, look right, had nowhere to go with it

and then just made his only three of the season. If you're telling me that's what they drew up. Like, that's bullshit. No, it's not as it, it's probably more annoying when the guy that's one of the best of all time gets the luck. You know what I'm saying? As opposed to just the one that's trash that gets the luck at the end. It's like, okay, you make

everyone right. But like just to have the goat of Tim Duncan, have the luck that Tim Duncan had has to be frustrating. It is hella frustrating. Tim Duncan and I are from the same place, right? Yeah. And Tim is the face of the Virgin Islands, rightfully so. And friend of the show.

Shout up to Tim. And friend of you love Tim. But you would be like, come on, man. You know I want to beat Tim for a lot of reasons, right? Like, I want to beat Tim. Man, like I'm a competitor. I was there in camp with San Antonio. They didn't keep me.

There are a lot of reasons that I want to beat the Spurs. Go back and look at the list of the archives. I listen to the Tim Duncan archives on our interview. You're a spur. He said you're a spur. and you're in body and that's a big mistake. So I just want to put that out there for the record. No, I appreciate that.

And Papa and I have had a lot of conversations about that. But in reality and in retrospect, I was not ready to be an NBA player. I had more seasoning. You know, I was not going to be able to contribute to them in a way that they needed me to contribute. But that's neither here nor there. Why I say all that is,

and you talk about Tim's luck and it being Tim that hits the shot and shit like that. I remember shooting a three in the corner, across from our bench, and, you know, early in one of those games, big playoff game. And I let that shit go. and it might have been the best feel of a shot leaving my hands in my career.

I shit you not. You know when that the shit is cash. You know, you see step turn around. Better than those shots you be sending me from their backyard. Like, you know, when you're feeling yourself and the fucking noreas plan. Listen, this is how good it was because I don't talk shit when I play. I don't. I just shoot it and I keep it moving.

But when this one left my hand, it felt so good. Tim was on a closeout. and I said to Tim something to the effect of like, yeah, too late. Like, you know what I mean? As I let it go, which was so out of character for me. That shit went and popped out. And Tim said something to the effect. I can't say.

It's not, I can't remember verbatim. Like, yeah, you should make sure it goes in before you say something, before you run your mouth or something like that. I'm like, fucking Tim Duncan. He's even getting lucky on my shots. I know, bro. Also, bro, it was Tim that played you. and also I was watching the Christmas game

I referenced in the last episode of the 2007 it might have been but anyway this motherfucker Kobe hits you and you're playing great defense Roger you're playing great defense he hits you with a gotcha and it goes in and I'm like what the fuck do you remember that?

Do you remember that? He said I'll send you the clip he shoots a shot from the wing and goes gotcha and it goes in you don't need to send me the clip before I don't need the clip I don't send you the clip He was super frustrating because we're just on memory lane now.

Pod listeners, I hope you enjoy a memory lane pod because we're on it. If you try to defend an elite player, wide receiver, offensive player in basketball or offensive player in soccer or any sport like that where it's like head to head and you've got to stay in front of someone, I don't give a damn who you are. Eventually, given enough time, it's impossible to stay in front of them. Ask any cornerback in the league. If there is not a count and a time limit on that, eventually the receiver gets open because you can't guard him for that long. So Kobe, you know, so I get a lot of shit because, yeah, Kobe mixed me up and got a bunch of buckets and all of that stuff.

I would just say this, there were a lot of times where I played that man perfectly. I mean, to a T, perfectly. Textbook. And he still cashed that shit out. And he still cashed it out. So there was, I mean, what do you do at that point, Logan? Like you, you have done everything. Uh, beat him to the spot.

Uh, beat him to the spot. Uh, didn't go for the head fake. Uh, stay down. Uh, high hand contest. He's fading away. You're there right there with him. And that shit is in the bottom of the net. I mean, my God.

I remember, Doc, not even Kobe, but I'm thinking about the, I'm thinking about Kevin Durant and watching him play and just like remembering that he's seven, he's seven feet tall. and like people that were really, really good defending him, played him to a T. And it didn't matter, bro. It didn't even affect him. Dirk was like that too. Where you could play him.

And because they're so long and they've got that high release and it's slightly fading away. It didn't matter. See, I didn't get mad at those. They didn't bother him. Kevin Durant scored on me. You're 611. I'm 6.5.

It's going to happen. Like, I shit. I mean, it is. Kobe was my size. I know. So it becomes, it becomes like even more frustrated. reading when you see someone who should not.

He shouldn't, like, in theory, be able to make that if you do everything right. But because he's Kobe, he makes it. Like, it's tough. Turn every Thursday into payday with TNT Thursdays on Fanduals Sportsbook. It doesn't matter if you win or lose. Fan Duel is giving all customers $10 and bonus bets every Thursday.

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1,800 522470, or visit KSgamblinghelp.com in Kansas, 18770. Stop, Louisiana, visit MD gambling help.org, Maryland, 18778 Hope N.Y, or text Hope N.Y. 467-369, New York, 1-800-2-22-4-7-00 Wyoming, or visit www.wbubber. 1-800 gambler.net, West Virginia. So let's get back to the big men conversation.

I want to talk about the future of it. I want to get back to that Yolkits and B game in that matchup. When you see those two played against each other, In terms of history, we talked about in the beginning of this episode, what do you see in those guys that have kind of taken the baton? Because I think now we are back in, or at least back into one or we're starting another big man golden age, man, where at least we have those guys that have taken all of the things. Like, I feel like the Dwight Howard, who was a really good center and should be a Hall of Fame. I feel like that era of those were big men, we're kind of figuring out their place again in the game. because a lot of the stuff that they did well was legislated out.

And I think now when you see Joelle Embed and you see Yokic, you see a guys that are, they took all those lessons, and then they have also applied the lessons of the big men before them, like the Shaquille O'Neal and the Wilts Chamberlains and the David Robinson's, and they've evolved to a point where they can be all those things encompassing, shoot the threes, get into the paint, dunk on you. And it's like a way more, it's like the big man 2.0 right now. What do you see in this current crop of big men like a Joellen Bede and like a yokech

that have pushed the game forward? I mean, it's just a continuation of the skill development, the ability to play anywhere on the floor with the ball in your hands. In some points, be the facilitator and main conduit to offense. You know, Chris Weber and Vladay were good at that too. So I don't know that these two started it. necessarily, but they're certainly carrying the torch. You know, you can play through, you can play through Yolkich just all night long,

and they do at a lot of points, and he facilitates. And Joel has a great ability to do that, too. I think he's physically more gifted and, you know, can beat you with size and strength and athleticism as well as craft and headiness and skill. I think if you made me pick one, I would say that Yokic is the craftyer of, the two only because he's got to be. You know, he can't just physically overwhelm you the way that Embed can. So he's always got to play from a craft and a, in a cheeky kind of like perspective

where Embed can, but there are times where he's just like, yo, I'm too big, too fast, too strong, too athletic. I can get this when I want it. So I think what it does is it just continues to push the envelope for what a bigger player is looked upon to do in offense. it changes the way we train. It changes the way these kids trains. Look at Victor Webb, Webanyama,

or whatever his name is. Wimby. Wemby. I mean, yeah, I like that. Let's go with Wemby. But yeah, he like, Wembe,

look at Bull, bowl. I mean, Bo Bo is averaging like 11 a game, but draw the juxtaposition from Bull Bull to Manute Bowl. Yeah. And look at that.

Now, Mnute shot threes towards the end his career, but this damn Bo Bo Bo Bo is like on the break, pushing it down to the floor. I think that's the KD influence, though. I think that's the KD influence, going into the Janus influence. And we don't really speak about Katie is a big man because more he doesn't like to be.

I don't think he likes to be put into that box. But I do feel like he is the evolution of that. You're six, 10, 6, 11. I mean. And same with, same with Janus. But I feel like the younger guys are starting to see that. And you start to see the manifestation of a bowl, ball, ball.

And like, even I think about like James Wiseman who has watched, who watches Janus and got kind of those early comparisons like in his career fair or not. But like those, that's what they see growing up. Those two guys is like, oh, I want to be like that. That's the example I see as a big man now. Yeah. I really love, I always had an affinity for, and this is personal taste. Like, it's got, you know, everyone likes to look at things a certain way and appreciates something in a way, you know, that's kind of unique to them.

I love to see the passing ability of the bigs. I just, I think it's a pretty thing to watch. those bigs who in my era weren't asked to do that pick you apart mentally. I just, it's fun to watch. It was super fun for me to watch C Webb and Vlade pass the shit out of it and Sabonis. Also want to put Shaq in there too. Shack too. Yeah.

But I, you know, I often don't give Shaq enough credit for that because he was such a physical offensive force at the rim. But yes, Shaq as well. So like I really appreciate watching that. And I just, the biggest forever changed until, until one of them suckers comes back if they ever do and just dominates and is too big and punishes people on the block. And a team wins doing that. And when a team, if and when a team wins doing it like that, there's going to be another shift. That's why I'm rooting for Embed because I think Embed as with the roster construction and just where he is in the Eastern Conference, I think he's the one with the chance.

but he needs, I don't know what he needs in that, but I think that he's the one that can carry that torch for that. Because if Yonnas, Yonis already won a title, but like he's not considered the big even though he is in the traditional sense. Even though he is a big, don't get it twisted. But like he's not considered that in the way that Embed is. Like, Embed if he wins a title, he'll be that guy. And here's what will be interesting if that happens, right?

If Embed throughout the playoff run makes a lot of his money in the more traditional big areas of the floor. if that's where he is doing the most damage, and that proves to win a championship, if it bears itself out as such, what domino falls with what team in terms of tweaking the roster to counter that? And the domino effect that that sets off around the league in terms of people modeling it to try to stop it

and whether that swings the pendulum back to having more support defensively to counter that. Can you dig what I'm saying? Because it just takes one thing to happen to start that domino. effect. Well, the question I have all the time is like, and I see this with the warriors, like, because everybody followed them a lot. I've seen that with like when, remember the Lakers of the 2010s had Bidenem and Gasol, right? Gasol's another one who's a great big who can pass. But it's always

a league trying to copy that model. Why is it always have to be the league is racing to copy a model and just going instead of going with personnel that can stop it? Or like going with personnel, like, For instance, when you went to the Knicks in the 90s, you knew what type of team that was an identity that was, right? And they were that identity no matter what. Why does it seem like everyone is trying to follow a certain blueprint to win instead of just finding their own? I guess is my question. Why is it always like that in terms of trends? Some of it's probably based in bravery.

Like you're stepping out on your own. I mean, you would have to have a lot of support from ownership. It would have to go right relatively quick for you to be able to sell to someone who's paying you a lot. lot of money that, hey, I'm the only one doing it this way and it's not currently working. And he's looking at you like, well, like, I invested a lot of money for you to be sitting here telling me it's not working when all of those dudes are doing it this way. And it seems, that seems to be working. So I think safe route probably plays some part in it. And people are trying to keep their jobs. Let's keep it a buck. People are trying to keep

their jobs and make a living for their family. Absolutely. I mean, that's for sure. That's first and foremost. But secondly, I do think that people are doing it in their own way within a new look. Like, it's not all the same, right? But it's within this new complexion of the way the game is being played. So, no, there aren't the two bigs and stuff like that. But every general manager, while operating kind of in this new look, is doing it in a different way. You know, but, you know, I mean, life is when you find success, like people are looking, you know, to copy that and then, and then make it even better, right? So if you see something that works, you're like, shit, I can take that, I can spin it and

I can throw this on top of it and now look what I got. It's just, it's very interesting. How have you seen it on the youth level? Like, what are big men doing on the youth level? And are you happy? Because you kind of have an inside track of what the trends are going to be. What do you see on that level of where we are from a big man perspective? Here's my problem with the big man on the youth level.

And I've dealt with it. you know, on multiple teams I've coached. My problem with the big man on the youth level isn't that they want to explore their skill sets and shoot threes at times and be out in space. It's, and even to some degree handle the ball, right? Like, but it's the reluctance to do things that have to be done on the court.

Once to do all of the things out on the perimeter, but doesn't want to do any of the things that the bigger player on the court is best suited to do. i.e. rebounding, you know, protecting the rim. Like smaller players just aren't equipped in some instances to do that. I don't have to post you up and make you a back to the basket player, but there is still your fair share and amount of rebounding and dirty work that has to be done. Yours just looks different than a smaller players.

Like I'm going to ask a smaller player to get up, hound the shit out of the ball, be in passing lanes, take charges. Like that's how he sacrifices. is you can be an offensive like unicorn, but this is still a game that demands us rebounding the ball and protecting the rim. And so you got to do that. And far too often in the youth, in the youth world, these AAU programs to get the better player off of maybe a smaller team,

if that player is a long player, they just acquiesce to all parent demands, which is like put the ball in my six, eight, seven graders hands and just let him be the point guard. And that's okay, except you're not helping that kid when he can't rebound and he has no like motor and he won't go down there and get physical, you know, on the defensive end. No one's saying they don't have to, they can't have the offensive, you know, weaponry, but there's still things that have to be done. And so that's what I try to do with my kids.

Hey, listen, bro, I don't care how we get buckets. I'm an advantage play. I'm an advantage coach. Wherever we got it, that's how we're going to get it. Like, I'll teach you all how to be guards. I'll teach you all how to post up in the heat of a game, though, and we're trying to win. we're going to play out of an advantage. But if you're a larger player on my team,

by the nature of being on a team and having a role, yo ass is asked to do some things around the basket defensively, and you got to do it. Yeah. It's for the team. For the team. For the team. Yeah.

Oh, man. No, this is, this is very enlightening because it's just like, you know, when I'm watching those games, like, you know, it's fun to see a big post up and also shoot threes and just be a big. It's just, it's fun. I don't want to get away from that as a game.

And I know that we're evolving past that. But like, man, I want it to be just, I miss this having the balance in our game. No, I feel that. I like, I like it. I like my bigger player getting it off the rim and me telling my guards, hey, we don't need to wait for no outlet. Like, this kid can push. It's our advantage.

He's got it. We're flying. Go. Or, Ra, we don't see, we see the big going to the three point line. Or we don't teach our guards anymore to just reward the big anymore. running as he's running as fast as he can. Give him the fucking ball on a fast break. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know how other people teach it, but I, my bigger player

still rim runs. Like, I need you to put a threat on the rim because those are cheap, easy ones. So my guards, we got to look up the court. Now, we do it with varied levels of success. But, I mean, you're going to run to that, to that rim and then we can get you out to the perimeter and play. But we got to pose a rim threat. Like, I mean, if we're not teaching, if we're not teaching people to fly and try

to get layups, I mean, I'm sure they're far better coaching. than me out there. That doesn't mean they have to stay in the post, but I mean, you should present some sort of threat at the rim and transition. Yeah, yeah. Well, this is a great Thursday discussion, Rob.

Before we get out of here, you know what we got? Ooh, real one. Real one of the week. Let me go first. Oh, all right, yeah. Well, let me, let me present it. TV.

All right, so we're about to do Real One of the week, which we do every Thursday where we point out a person, entity, an organization that won the week. Roger here said that he wants to do it first. So we're going to give it to him first. Roger, who you want to make it a real one of the week, sir?

I mean, this is a tough one for me. I shouldn't have went first. Well, you literally... I shouldn't have went first. I was really excited. You literally excited. I was really excited. All right.

I'm giving it to three people. Okay. Can I do that? Just let me. Allow me. It's your show. It's your show. I got to start with Thomas Brady, who just retired this morning.

And while I never cheered for the Patriots, I've been on record as saying when he left. the Patriots and went to Tampa. I, like a lot of people, saw a different side of Tom Brady that made me root for him and endeared himself to me. And I became a fan. And so as the goat, and he retired this morning, sidebar, I think that man played a whole extra season just to be able to say he retired on his own.

That's a whole other conversation. I think that man played a whole extra season of football just so he could announce his own retirement. I don't know if you saw the video, that was a rough watch. I hope he's okay. I hope he's doing all right. It's tough. But no, definitely real one man.

And we'll miss Tom Brady. But I'm going to give it to, and I'll stay in a football world and I'll stay with QBs. Patty Mahomes on a high ankle sprain, which is like super excruciating. Joe Burroughs a bad man. Cincinnati was being picked by all the pundits. And, you know, they just did what they had to do. Pat Mahomes showed why he's the best quarterback in the league right now, like gangster performance on one leg. And I would be remiss.

I would be remiss if I didn't throw my time. dog Jalen Hertz in there, even though he did not play great. He didn't have to play great. But the man has just continued to overcome all the odds. Like Bama, you know, doing it again at Oklahoma playing well and not giving any credit in the draft, being selected, people talking all kind of shit when they said they were going to let Carson Wentz go to keep him. And where's he got his team?

To the motherfuckers Super Bowl. And like Powell, Antonio said in the pregame, say it again, where are you guys at? We going to the Super Bowl. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Not we because I'm like Eagles adjacent, but we hear, I got to say it. E, A, T, L, E, S, Eagles, we hear. So those are my real ones, bro. Damn, dog, you're going to, like, leave something for somebody else, dog.

My bad. Your real one is the quarterback position as a whole. Well, shit, since you took all the real ones, I'm going to go with this one, man. I'm going with Brianna Stewart, who is going to New York Liberty, which we kind of, we kind of elaborate. we kind of, did we kind of break some news of the project? Because we was, we bit, hey, what Shapel said? We, we've been on that.

We've been on that. So shout out to, shout out to the Liberty's a staff record label with the crew. Man, that's going to be nice, dog. See Sabrina UNESCO and, and Brianna Stewart go at it. Man, that's going to be fun, dog. So, yeah, man, that's my one of the week. That was fun. That was, it was a good one, man.

We'll see you. We'll see you guys on Monday. and Thursday, man, come holl at us. Make sure you come tap in what is. Also got to say this because we're going into All-Star Weekend. Come tap in with us at the state room. You get to see me and Rai-Rahra together for the first time live. Also with the rest of our Ringer MBA crew, it's going to be at the Stateroom in Salt Lake City, Utah,

and you go get your tickets at theStateroom.com. We're going to do that on February 18th. Make sure you tap in. We'll see you guys there. Roger said he's going to give me a personal tour of every. read all of his little water holes. I don't know, and I'm kind of scared. And we'll see what happens.

So we'll see you guys on Monday, but we'll also see you guys February 18th, man. Talk to y'all soon, man. Hala.