The Ringer NBA Show - The Ewing Theory, Featuring Ja, Trae, and Paolo | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Mf’n Beck are back with another edition of Real Ones, this time examining the Ewing theory as it applies to three of the league's favorites. Ja Morant, Trae Young, and Paolo Banchero are all highly touted stars in the league and the cornerstones of their respective franchises, but with their teams performing better without them, are there destinations that could better fit their skill sets where they could contribute to team success? Orlando Magic guard Desmond Bane had another crash out against the Knicks when he unnecessarily threw the ball at Knicks forward OG Anunoby. The guys try to figure out the reasoning behind some of his outbursts. Plus, the return of the mailbag! (0:00:00) Intro (1:00) FanDuel ad break (2:44) Ja Morant Ewing theory (22:12) Amazon Prime ad break (22:46) Trae Young Ewing theory (38:11) Paolo Banchero Ewing theory (44:40) What’s going on with Desmond Bane? (54:40) Mailbag! Check out Howard Beck’s latest piece on Giannis: https://www.theringer.com/2025/12/09/nba/giannis-antetokounmpo-nba-trade-rumors-all-in-history Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] Hosts: Logan Murdock, Howard Beck, and Raja Bell Producers: Victoria Valencia and Clifford Augustin Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz, Conor Nevins, and John Richter The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Poppin, Logan Murdoch here for Real Ones. I had a great time with Roger Bell and Howard M-M-M-Bek on this episode of Real Ones where we talk about the Ewing theory. You guys might know a little bit about that, how a team fairs when a star player is out of the lineup. And if they fare better with these stars out of the lineup, we talk about Jai, we talk about Trey Young, and we talk about a little mystery guy that you guys will see during the episode. It might get a little controversial. And then we talk about Desmond Bain and the ethics. of a crash out. And then we get to your mailback questions. It was a really, really fun episode.

I think one of our best of the season had a lot, a lot of fun. So check that out. One real housekeeping note, Rewansmailbag at gmail.com, real onesmailbag at gmail.com. We'll be answering your questions next Tuesday. So tap in for that. But for now, a great episode of Real Ones with myself, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck. The Ringer NBA show is presented by Fandle. Fandle's got it all. Same game parlay's Quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the Fandul app or head to fandul.com slash ringer MBA to get started.

21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gandr-Gandler or visit RG-Help.com. Call 1-888-78777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Cliff. Play the theme music. It's popping. Real ones.

Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there, Howard Beck and the Mother Effing Cut. This is Tuesday Real Ones. Let's get right to it, man. This was suggested in the prepod meeting yesterday that Roger is always invited to but never shows up. So we're going to get right to it. We're going to talk about the Ewing theory and see if it applies to a few players throughout the league. Now, for everybody that needs a refresher on the Ewing theory, it was made full. famous by our distinguished boss, Bill Simmons, and it suggests that a team performs better after a highly publicized star player leaves, despite initial expectations of decline because

the team stops relying on one individual and plays more cohesively. That is from an AI-generated Google search. So we're just going to go from that. The first person that we are going to talk to in this game that I have bestowed, does Does it apply or let it fly? We are going to talk about one John Morant of the Memphis Grizzlies. Let me give some context here. The Memphis Grizzlies now have a record of seven and five without John Morant this season.

That is according to Stas, Muse, and they have gotten back into the thick of the Western Conference after a bad start. In which some of those games, John Morant was playing in to start the season. He wasn't even actually trying. And this comes on the heels of a season when the greener. Grizzlies were 18 and 14 without John Morant during the 24, 25 season. And most famously, they were in one of his best seasons and his signature season in the league. He was, the Memphis Grizzlies were 20 and 5 without him in the lineup. I will start with Howard Beck and go to Roger Bell.

For John Morant, does it, does the Ewing theory apply or do we need to let it fly? I think it probably applies. And let me back up because I got curious and I was like, when did Ewing theory start? I actually found it's still up. 2001, ESPN.com page two, Bill Simmons's sports guy column. It was actually invented by his friend. We should shout him out. Dave Sorilly, created the mid-90s by Dave Sorreilly, a friend of Bill's, who was convinced that Patrick Ewing's teams, both at Georgetown and with the Knicks, that they inexplicably played better when Ewing was either injured or missing extended stretches. So it started there, and they decided there had to be two things present for somebody to qualify for Ewing theory status. The first one is that it's a star athlete who receives an inordinate amount of media attention and fan interest, and yet their teams never win anything substantial without them, other than a couple of maybe early round playoff series. That certainly seems to apply to John Moran, a little bit of early playoff success, but nothing deeper than that yet.

And then part two is that same athlete leaves his team, either by injury, trade, graduation, if it was a couple. college guy, free agency or retirement, and both the media and fans immediately right off the team for the following season. So that was like a very specific definition, but he says when those two elements collide, you have Ewing theory. But it applies to kind of like when a guy goes down. So we had this with Trey, right? We'll get to Trey. We had this with Jha. He's out. They're playing pretty well without him and they were really struggling with him. And on top of that, we knew that there was tension because he got suspended for a game for contact detrimental to the team. And like, listen, Jaws has been a tough, a tough haul over the last few years anyway, right?

He gets hurt a lot. He gets suspended. When he does play, obviously he's pretty ball dominant and he's a guy who really thrives one way. He wants the pick and roll diet. And when you didn't have that last season, when they were trying to, you know, change up the offense and have it be more of a movement offense, player and ball movement, it threw him off, put him in a in a, in a, in a, a, in a, a, in a, a, Funk. And sometimes a team, and maybe the Grizzlies are applicable here, if you've got enough talent otherwise and the ball moves more without your ball dominant star, sometimes everybody's that much better, a little bit percentage better. Now, you still end up not having the guy who can

carry you home in a fourth quarter, which is what you usually want stars for, right? Crunch time, critical moments, because your role players aren't necessarily as good in those moments and can't create for themselves. So there's always a downside here. But I'm going to say, at a glance, and I'll come back with some stats later, at a glance, I think John Morant qualifies for Ewing theory status. Howard, or excuse me, Roger, based on the definition that you just got, what is the science behind that in your mind when, you know, a player does go out? And maybe the role players are the people that are deemed pro players kind of coalesce and they ball out despite his absence. What do you attribute those types of things to? Look, and,

in the NBA, I say this all the time. I cringe when I hear a layman, a fan, a media member call someone trash or say they suck or, or, you know, all of the things that we would normally say about the 15th or 12th guy, whatever a roster holds now. Those guys are really, really good basketball players. Now, they might not be as good as your quote unquote star, but they are in instances when given the opportunity, able to do some things. And so, you know, this might not apply to 12 or 13 on the bench,

but certainly two through nine, like those guys are basketball players. So if you have a situation where a star who happens to be, you know, ball dominant and rightfully so because they're just so great at creating and closing, you have a situation where you extract them from the equation and everybody else gets a chance to play more freely, more wide open, with better ball movement, allowing them to showcase what they can naturally do. You could come up with it. You could come up with spurts of time. In some instances, maybe large spurts of time where that team looks better. I had this argument like, you know, my middle guy sometimes is on

teams and stuff. And there was a situation once where he thought a team would be better, you know, without someone. And my take on that to him was like, look, I disagree. Like I think that you might play better basketball at times with that. out player, but player is so good at being able to make shots and do these things that I don't think you're a better team overall. And so, you know, Howard touched on that, you could play better. Guys could kind of bloom in, for lack of a better term, when that player is off the court. But typically that two through nine guy that I'm talking about, they're not closers all the time. Or if they are, they're not as good a closer as that star is. So my case,

was like better basketball being played in absence of player, maybe. Overall, better team giving you a better chance to win in certain scenarios, I would argue sometimes not. Yeah. I think that with Jai specifically, I think he does, he does fit the criteria of what we're talking about with this theory. But I think to Raj's point, it's more of the other stuff, to be honest with you. Yes, Zach Eadie is coming into the fold and he's balling out right now, right?

Jaron Jackson is playing well. And they're defensively so much better with Jha off the court. But that is just enhanced by the fact of the off court stuff, Howard, I feel like, right? Because it's one thing to, you know, the numbers to suggest what they suggest. But if Jail was doing all the right things off the court and he was less of a headache, but he was still making, you know, the shots at the end of games and still playing, you know, solid defense. that that goes into it more than anything, right? I think that's why they are a better team. I think it's a fix. I think it was a fixable thing. I think now at this point, it's pretty much, you know,

he is who he is and he's pretty much auditioning for the rest of the league right now. Not very well, might I add, but he is doing it nonetheless. When he comes back, or if and when he comes back, how does Memphis adjust to this? And I know you do have stats on the other end, and I want you to get back to that Howard. But how at this stage of where the Memphis Grizzlies are and where John Morant is, what does Memphis do? And how do they react when Jai comes back? Because it seems like for all intensive purposes, they are ready to move on from each other. And it's different from three, four years ago when it was like, oh, okay, we're going to give him an extension. He's the face of the franchise. Now he's coming back to a situation where it's like, oh, we can get off

of your contract and we can still build something with the group that we have at this current moment. So it's funny because, Logan, the very last thing you said in your question dovetails with one of the stats that I was going to bring up. So I'm just going to jump right to it, which is this. I was texting with my friend Steve Alardi this morning. Steve is a data scientist, has worked in the league, has worked for ESPN, he does other things now. But I asked him to look some of this stuff up. One of the advanced plus minus sites, which shows, you know, your impact when you're on the court, and it controls for who your teammates are on the court with you, right?

So it's a pretty good scientific assessment. Jaws a plus contributor. He's a plus 1.6 per 100, but he says that that's on the level of a solid starter, not even a top 50 player. All-star levels more like a plus 3.5. So when you ask about like, well, what does it mean to like, are you building around him? Are you trading him?

What do you think you might be able to get? Part of the point of the exercise here is that in a salary cap, league where the cap is harder than ever. It's a virtual hard cap in the second apron era. If you're paying a guy at the max and it's like no one's looking at John Morant saying, oh, he's a bad player, but he's not giving you as much impact. The stats are showing this. The advanced stats are showing us. He's not providing as much impact as you'd want for a guy making the max and many more maxes to come for the next several years. And if you're only being, you know, if your impact is at the level of a solid starter, that's where you have to then

weigh that in, right? Oh, it's not that he's a net draw. brain on us. He's not a minus. He's just not providing the impact that you'd think he would based on his stature, his draft position, his salary. And so that's where it becomes difficult. And I think, you know, what I'd be curious about at a time like this is, and this happens sometimes in the league. And Rajas, I'm sure, seen this many times. The star is out, or even like a guy who's a high usage role player is out. Team plays well without them. When they're sitting there on the sideline watching, are they assessing this and taking it all and going, you know what, they've got a pretty good thing going that way. I should try to fit into what they're doing

when I come back rather than imposing my style. Negative. Some guys will. Some guys will adjust slightly. Some guys will not. Who do you? Like, I'm very curious. Now, I am not even, this isn't to like refute what you're saying. Who did that? I will say this. I have a person that has done it. Yeah, I'm right because I mean, I play it. He's an arguably top 10 player of all time. When Howard is talking about this, I think about Kobe Bryant in the back stretch of 2000, 2001, where he was out for, I had like a sprained ankle or something like that. And he was out for about two, three weeks, maybe a month. And Shaq went on a fucking tear, like an MVP-like tear.

And then they rolled that into the 15-1 playoffs. And then that's whenever I think about that example, I think about Kobe. But that's one of one. That's what he is the most ironic. No, he's like the most ironic example possible. And I'm trying to, I don't want to catch up. He went on to have his best postseason of his career.

But when Roger asked Logan, that was who was in my head because he's the most counterintuitive example you could possibly think of. And it actually happened multiple times. I always say this about the shack of Kobe era. It wasn't linear about the relationship or even about Kobe in terms of his evolution. It was two steps forward and one step back sometimes. It was some backsliding.

and then getting into bad old habits. And then at times, there was a time he was out with like a broken hand to start a season. It may have been Bill Jackson's first year. And then there was the one you were talking about Logan. And at those times, because he was a really intelligent player, like he'd say, okay, and he would calibrate. It didn't last. You know, ultimately Kobe was still going to be Kobe and he and Shaq were going to clash anyway. But Raja, I'm telling you, and Logan just mentioned it too.

Like, Kobe is an example of somebody who at times could see there's a successful model here. without me, I need to rein myself in at least a little bit. Well, no, and that's, I mean, that's a great example, right? Like, I would not have really witnessed that in that way because that was around when I was playing or trying to make the league. So, like, you know, I wasn't dialed into what he or the Lakers were doing like that. I would just say two things and you touched one. I mean, that was a moment in time that was not going to last forever, right? Like, he's not saying, hey bro, I'm changing the way I play to fit in with the Lakers for the rest of my career. And number two, it's easier to do that when you're talking about a star like Kobe deferring

or augmenting his game to support a team that is now thriving around a star like Shaq. Yeah, sure. Right? Like, the context is very important because minus Shaq, Kobe's like, fuck that. Like, I'm not, you know? Okay, so that being the case, let's bring up. back to Jha then. If we agree, and I'm not sure if we all agree or not, about whether Jha is a difficult fit for a team sometimes and that maybe the Grizzlies are going to be better off without

him, or maybe if you trade him, because you're going to get back, either one guy who makes the max and actually gives you max impact, which we just established Jha does not, or you're getting multiple players back and giving yourself some flexibility to go a different direction. Like, ultimately, are they better off without Jha, Raja? Like, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not saying, this is, again, not a value judgment on Jaws a player overall. He's a good player. Is he great enough? And are what the Grizzlies doing now proof that, you know, or at least suggestive that they might be better in the long run without him? Well, let me first touch on the Kobe of it all and, and you asking the question, you know, previously about like, can you sit there and, or Logan,

do you may have asked it? Can you sit there and, and watch them play and say, hey, let me figure out how to fit in around that. I do feel like the Shaq situation is really, and the context of a player like Shaq being present is important. Because if you look at like 17 a game for for uh, uh, uh, Jared Jackson or like Zach Edy who's playing well, like those numbers and what they're doing night tonight might not suggest to someone like Jha who feels the way he does about his own skill set that he needs to change when he comes back, right? To answer your question, the immediate question, Howard, um, if you're going to ask him, and this, this kind of falls into the thing that I've been saying recently about LeBron.

If you are going to ask a player type like a jaw or even like, you know, some of the names we'll get to later who need the ball to do what they do, if you are going to ask them to give that up and be more of a piece, the answer is, yeah, man, if you can move him and get more pieces that fit with what you do more organically, yeah, probably better without him. Do you know what I mean? Like a better fit, you get more complimentary pieces. If you're not going to let the highest end of that star be the highest end of that star, absolutely. And it might be because you deem the highest end of his ability isn't good enough. And I'm not here to say that. But like, if you've made that determination as a team, the answer is, yeah, like move that. If you can get, if you can get back

pieces that you feel make you a better squad. So I don't, I don't, with this particular situation that the Grizzlies find themselves in, there are a couple of ways that they can go, right? There is, they can go trade away and try to get a salary slot of jobs and try to get a star. They're probably going to do that anyway just to make the numbers work, right? Or they can go try to do that, get picks on an expiring deal, and try to replenish that way, right? They already have the picks from the Orlando Magic deal, so maybe that's not a priority right now, right?

But one thing that I keep thinking about right now is I think keep thinking about the 2007, 2008 nuggets, right? Where they go into that offseason in 2008 and they're playing with Alan Iverson and they say, oh, we're good, but one, it's just not working. We have hit a ceiling here. And they trade Alan Iverson and they get Chauncey Billups, right? On the surface, you're like, man, that might be a regression because Alan Iverson is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

he has done so much. I mean, Roger knows how great he is. Howard knows how great he is. I know how great he is. But then you put him onto a better fit for that roster and what happened with the Nuggets. No, they didn't win a championship, but that was because, you know, the Lakers were in their way. But they were, they went to the conference finals. They had one of their best seasons in franchise history because they had a different type of point guard that fit mostly with that roster. I do wonder if this could, if the Grizzlies are thinking, oh, man, this is a sleeping giant. If we just, if we can flip a team, flip, flip, a guy like Jaffor, maybe an overzealous franchise and get a guy back, I think they can do that. The problem, I think, though, is that like we, I think we're so sophisticated, much more sophisticated now, not to say that bad deals won't happen,

right, but I think we're a lot more sophisticated as a league to do that where we look at the numbers and we put that into consideration when we are trading for someone. And the fact of the matter is what John Morant is, I think, like, the book is already out on him, right? Like,

every other team knows exactly what they're going to get. And it would take a GM to go out on a limb and say, okay, I'll do it for this guy because I believe in this guy. The problem is, in this new apron era, you're going to have to make a trade for Jai if you're the Grizzlies four years ago when no one is at as high as peak into, if you see it, you go make the trade and you surprise the rest of the league, but you were the smartest one because you knew what was going on beforehand. it's going to be hard to move him because everybody knows who he is.

And I think that's the tricky part, Howard. Yeah, and it's not just the play, right? It's all the stuff that's happened to get him suspended multiple times and attitude concerns. And every other team knows that too, right? And that's not to blame the Grizzlies for not trading a few years ago. Like, it would have seemed crazy at the time. They are where they are because of everything that's happened since, right? So it is going to make it tough.

The league is collectively smarter. and more skeptical, I think, of guys who's advanced stats, their impact stats, don't match up with the box score or the eye test. And you do start to look at them a little more skew. It doesn't mean somebody else won't trade for him or take a chance on him or think that they can get a better version of him. It does mean that they might not want to give up as much to get him, though. And so any trade would be tough. Well, the problem is for me, I'm going to get right to you, Roger. The problem is for me is the two teams that would trade for him in my.

my eyes would just say we'll take a chance on them. The Pelicans and the Kings don't really have guys that can both match the salary slot and I think make this Grizzlies team better. And I think that's the tough part in this league right now. So we'll see what happens. But, Raj, what were you going to say? Yeah, I was just going to say about your Carmelo thing. Again, you have, you make a move and get rid of Alan Iverson.

It falls into the same category as why Kobe would look at a team playing with Shaq and say, hey, I need to change the way I play. Because you have Carmelo Anthony. Sure. Right? Like when you're saying you're going to just change a piece and you think you can unlock your team, then you're saying Jaron Jackson or Zach, someone over there is a true number one and you have to find a good supporting castmate to kind of unlock him.

Denver had the security of knowing. I got, I already have Mellow. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's a good point. Yeah. And also, like, we don't know who's, we know who Jaron Jackson is. And I have my skepticism of him and I know Beck does as well.

but we don't know who Zach Ead is. It's just so many question marks with this roster. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move fast, and Amazon Prime keeps you in control with fast and free delivery. We've all been there. Family plans are fluid.

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especially when it's last minute, and it just can't wait. Need that last minute gift or holiday essential. It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. All right. Next player is a very polarizing player. We're going to go down to Atlanta and talk about Tray Young.

Let me give some stats really quickly. Since 2020, December 9th, 2020, that is five years ago to the day. Atlanta Hawks have a record of one. 174 and 173 with Tray Young. They have a 60 and 75 record with Tray Young since 23, 24. Defense is horrible with Tray Young on the floor, but he's still Tray Young. But he's also having one of the worst individual seasons he's had. He's shooting like 37 from the field, 37% from the field, 19 from 3 over his,

in the five games that he's played. Meanwhile, the hawks are rolling without him. Dyson Daniels, a defensive player of the year finalist, and most improved player has been killing it. For the Ewing theory, Howard, for Trey Young, does it apply? Are we going to let it fly? It's a really interesting case because part of what's happened, so they're 12 and 8 without him this season.

They were 2 and 3 when he was playing. Part of what happens is that Jalen Johnson picked up where he left off last year before he got hurt and it's turning into a freaking star before our eyes, right? So the pictures clouded a little bit on this one, right? It's not Trey Young was in this lineup and everything else is static and now he's out and they're playing better without him. It's Trey Young's out and this, this really nice young player has caught fire in a way that you didn't really see coming and is just growing by leaps and bounds and he's torching the league and he's putting up triple doubles. And now it's like, we might have a new North Star. And we now have to figure out going back to

you know, Kobe and Shaq type example, does the old North Star want to play with the new North Star? Do we have too many North Stars? Can they function well together? Can we be even better than this with a fully functioning Tray Young and Jalen Johnson together? I, as well as most people around the league, I think, would be skeptical that Tray's going to fit well with him. But, Raja, this is another case where, like, I think it's fair to wonder or give the benefit of the doubt to a guy. Trey Young has played a certain way most of his career. But listen, notably, Trey, He was a phenomenal passer, often gets overlooked by other things in his game, including his three-point shooting, but a phenomenal passer, he should actually be able to kind of get himself back in the flow with the team the way they're playing now without him, mesh with that, help bring out the best of Jalen Johnson and everybody else, and maybe it does ratchet down his usage rate. We'll see. The problem is, and this is where I'll bring my friend Steve Alardi back into the mix with the advanced stats, his defense is so bad. that Steve notes that it negates his plus offensive impact. So he's a net minus. And that's tough. It's a size thing. It's also just the way he plays defense. But it may well be that they are better off

without him. So yeah, Logan, I'm going with what was our framework here? Does it apply or let it fly? I think it applies. I think I think U.A theory with a lot of asterisks kind of applies. And I think I think it's probably time for the Hawks to choose a different direction be building around Jalen Johnson. Real quick, Raza, the Atlanta Hawks have a 119 defensive rating with Trey Young on the floor. Yeah, that's tough, man. That's, that's, I'm just going to agree with Howard. You want me to be quick?

I'll agree with Howard there. No, I mean, you know, and I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt because I think weirdly, and this makes no real sense, like on page. but in my head it does. Like he, he's been so ball dominant and so, you know, everything's had to revolve around him for so long as a player all the way back

when you watched him in Oklahoma. It's just what he's always done. But for a weird, for some weird reason in my mind, he seems like he would be able to change his game to fit that a different style better than John Morant would be. Like, you know, because of his ability to catch and shoot,

like because of some of the things he does, But that lack of defense is just, oh, that's, that's really, really hard when you're, when you're that small guard and you don't defend. But I would agree with you, Howard, but I do want to give him the benefit of doubt like you said, we should, right? Because in a, in the weirdest way, I feel like his skill set, if he ever bought into not having to be this, this ball dominant type of player, like he could fit. You can, you can scheme around one bad defender, right? I mean, you can hide your one bad defender. But yeah, here's the thing. When they got DeJante Murray, I initially thought, okay, Mac, they gave up a lot to get DeJante

Murray. People go read my piece today on Theringer.com about all in trades and how they often backfire. But I thought they could play off each other because Trey is such a great shooter and a great passer. Like, he can function in other ways and contribute at a high level in other ways that don't require him having the ball in his hands all the time and scoring on time. Jha cannot shoot and therefore like without the ball in his hands, he is diminished anyway.

So yeah, it's a little, it's tougher. Trey has a better chance of meshing. And he's also been in the league longer, Raja too. So what was the lesson we learned off of the Pierce Garnett, Ray Allen Celtics? What do they all say in their early 30s when they got together and immediately just like torched the league? We'd all had our individual success. We'd all seen the limits of that individual success and we were all ready to sacrifice for

each other and they go and they win a championship and make a couple finals. it sometimes takes a guy into his late 20s or early 30s before he's ready to kind of put aside the individual goals and be more about team. And so Trey is a little older, you know, maybe, again, benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's willing to play a different way and see what Jalen Johnson has brought to the table and fit in around that. Can I let me just take you, can I take you guys under the hood real quick?

Just real quick because this is like this is what the fan doesn't really see. You know, we had this conversation as it relates. to like Kyrie Irving way back. For a Trey Young to look at a situation and acknowledge, you know, that he needs to play a different kind of way to fit what's going on, he has to, in practice, see Jalen Johnson in a way that the Ray Allen, the Kevin Garnett, and the Paul Pierce can have actual mutual respect and understand, yo, this dude is a killer. And it doesn't always happen in games.

Like we see the games. The fans see the games where you earn that respect from Trey that allows Trey to say, okay, dude, like I can play off of that is in practice. That's where I watched LeBron and Kyrie worked that out. And I watched it right before my eyes. I watched that dynamic. Once I saw LeBron start going over to Kyrie and Kyrie was giving him the little tutorial of like how he's putting the ball off the glass and all of that, I said, oh,

shit. Like they're going to be fine. Like how Kevin Love fits in, we'll have to figure it out. But that's the dynamic, right? Trey Young has to be able to leave a practice, get on the phone with his homeboy and say, hey, bro, this kid Jalen Johnson is a motherfucker. Like, he's a bad man. And now you got action.

Now you might get to that point, Howard, where you say, you know what, I'm in year, whatever this is, I really want to win. And it's incumbent upon me to, like, make this little bit of a change to kind of accommodate this young star who I think can get us where we need to go. Yeah. I mean, to your point, Raja, Trey Young has a lot to prove. in that regard, right? I mean, it's, you hear certain whispers, like, oh, he's matured a little bit. He's matured a little bit. But, like, he's still, like, doing content to, like, go at Pat Beverly off of, like,

you know what I'm saying? Like, for, he's still trying to clap back on some, like, real kid shit, right? And before this happened, like, his best run was during the 2021 Eastern Conference finals run, right? And that was a, that was a very walkie season in high. insight, right? You know, a lot of teams played a lot of games in a very condensed time period, and a lot of weird teams got through that, right? Not to diminish what he did because he had a great run. Since then, he hasn't been good, and he's had the bug of a coach killer. He's had the reputation of players not liking him or not wanting to play with him league-wide. And I say all that to say, to your point about him looking at another teammate and saying, oh, man, I

I can share some of this with you. He has a lot to prove because I don't believe he can do that right now, right? Because you talk about LeBron, who, while he does have one of the biggest egos of all time and, rightfully so in a superstar ego, he has been really good with players that he likes and saying, oh, okay, I'll give you to, like, I'll let you get a chance to get this torch, right? Like, I'll let you, I will defer. He deferred with Dwayne Wade early on before Dway, to the point where Dwayne Wade was like,

nah, bro, you are better than me. please take the reins of this offense, right? Kyrie, same deal, was like, oh, okay, you got it? I remember that San Antonio game against the game against the Cavs in San Antonio. It was a T&T game. I think you were in the front office at that time, Roger, where Kyrie just went off, went completely ballistic, and LeBron was like, oh, okay, I guess I'll just be a supporting role tonight.

I'll hit the shots when I need to, but this is Kyrie's game. I don't see that from Trey Young right now. I don't see that that he's capable of doing that. And this is a big step because we talk about Jaya having an audition. Trey Young also has a big audition for how long he's going to be in Atlanta. And I agree with you, Howard, and I agree with you, Roger. I think that he has the tools to adjust and to what he can be into the next stage in his career. Just watch some stuff highlights coming off screens and you don't have to have the ball so much.

I think he can do that. I am just very, I'm reticent to believe that he is going to do that. And if he doesn't do that, Howard and Rajah, this is my last question for this part of this segment. If he doesn't do that, we talk about pressing buttons and when to press the button. If Janice is out here doing this double-dutching and going back and forth, right? Atlanta seems like the prime place for him to go with the picks and the team. I'll start with Howard, then I'll go to Rajah. Do you press the button with this specific roster?

If I'm the Hawks, and again, referenced in my piece that's on Theringer.com right now, go read it. It's about all in trades and how they can quickly go wrong. But the Hawks, yeah. I mean, look, you've got a star in Trey Young, who you probably want to move off of anyway, and could be the core piece of a trade. You're not trading Jalen Johnson. The Bucks will insist on him and you're going to say no. But you've got, they own, they have control of the Bucks' 2026 pick, which is pretty freaking huge. They also have control, and these two picks are tied together in some kind of obnoxious fucking picks and swaps and whatever.

But their pick, the Bucks pick and the Pelicans pick are tied together. The Hawks have control over both or one or the other. It's very confusing. Those are really, really nice trade chips. So if you're the Bucks and you can get control back of your 2026 pick in a year that you think you're going to be bad because you're trading Janus in season if that were to happen. Yeah, get your pick back. Get Trey Young, who will put butts in seats. and it's fun and it actually will win you some games too.

And look, he's a really good player. Flawed, but a really good player. And whatever other picks and an ancillary player, like, you know, you're going to ask for like Nikiel Alexander Walker. You're going to ask for Dyson Daniels. Like the Hawks are going to try their best not to give up any of those guys aside from Trey. But yeah, I mean, if I'm the Hawks and they do start to shop Janus, if Janus is this time,

and Janus is willing to resign with me critically because he's only got another year left after this one. Yeah. I'm in. Roger Bell. Yes. Okay. Very profound thought right there, buddy.

Sucinct. You're asking me if I would give up Trey O for Yannis? I don't know what your picks. Yes. I mean, fuck them pigs, Howard. No. Well, I mean, listen, listen, I would say this. I would say this.

If the case for the Hawks not doing it, this is a little bit of a tangent. But there's actually a case for the Hawks not doing it, which is you can, you're going to trade Trey anyway probably for. for other stuff. You have Jalen Johnson as your tent pole. You've got these really great role players, high level defenders in Dyson and Nikiel. And then you have, because you have control over the bucks and Pelicans picks, the chances of you getting an incredible player next June in this really strong draft to go with the guys you already have and on a longer timeline, because Janus is in his early 30s, 31, whatever he is. Like, I don't know. Like that's a,

That would be a really interesting debate to be part of in the Hawks front office, is all I'm saying. It definitely would. That would be a fascinating debate. And I believe you'd have people where in some of those debates in front offices, you have guys that are really close to either side of the argument. And that one, you probably have people on like just a complete opposite ends of the spectrum on that. I would just say that, you know, I'm trying to be a little funny there. But, you know, the argument that you're making about the extended timeline, I think I would use the opposite argument and say, if I'm looking at the east and I'm Atlanta right now, let's fucking go.

Let's rock and roll, baby. Let's see if we can capitalize on the window now through, you know, whatever Janus has left in the tank. That would be my argument in that office. Do you throw Porzingis in there as well? Like, he's injury prone. You don't know how long he's going to be on that run. So would you just throw him in and see if you can get, if that elicit something else in

a trade, Howard? No, I mean, I mean, Porzingis might be part of just salary matching or whatever else in a trade for Janus anyway. Like you've got Okongwu, you've got other. Like, yeah, I think you trade everybody. You have to be willing to trade anybody but Jalen. And you're trying to hold on to Jalen as well as Nikiel Alexander Walker and Dyson Daniels, right?

Like, I think those guys are the core of where your future is heading. But it's interesting to think that core with Janus or that core, which is still pretty young, with a potentially like blue chip talent in June that's coming via somebody else's draft pick. Like, it's tempting. But like, I'm kind of with Rajah in the end. I could talk myself in circles all day on this. I think in the end I'd be like, fuck it.

The East is wide open this season. Yonis plus. Yeah. If you don't have to give up too much in terms of your current players and you can get Yonis. Yeah. I'm with you, Howard. I mean, obviously, if you're telling me I got to give up Dyson and some other pieces and it's just, yeah. That changes shit.

But like if I could hold on to some of that core, yeah. Because, I mean, I love Camboosur. I mean, I've watched him since he was, he's going to be one of the top picks in the draft. I watched, I watched the young and at BYU up around Thanksgiving and on Landau. Like, they're really good players. But, I mean, it's fucking Janice. You know what I mean? And if you had the core to go around him, let's go.

Hey, Rajum. That celebration down Pete's tree will be fucking same. Which peach tree? There's like 17 of them. The one. The varsity will be popping. Cliff might miss a show to go down there.

Anyways, let's go to our last one. Our last Ewing theory, candidate. This is kind of a throw-in. I don't even think me and Howard honestly believe this one, but we just said, fuck it. Let's just, let's make a whole fan-based mad at us. Palo Ben-Caro, ladies and gentlemen. Does it apply? Let it fly. Howard Beck. Probably let it fly, but like, okay, they're seven and seven and seven-and-three without him. So this is why we bring it up, right? Oh, look at how well they're playing with. It's just like Wagner, as the centerpiece with, you know, Bain is kind of the one to play off of him and like good defenders

around him and everything. Like, it's simplified. You have, again, the North Star kind of theory. You have one North Star. And it's also because if you go back over the last several years, and again, my buddy, Steve Alardi, when I was just trading notes with him this morning, noted that the raw off data for years have been showing this, that the magic are really great with Franz on the court and no Palo, but they're bad when, It's Palo with bronze. And I don't think they're as good with just Palo and not bronze. So like the advanced stats or the on-off numbers generally favor fronds with or without

Palo. And the thing with Palo is, and again, Steve mentioned this, like he's a net negative player impact-wise, but it's not necessarily due to awful defense, which was the case earlier in his career. It's more about his offensive efficiency, Palo, high usage rate, low efficiency. and you expect a young player and he's still a young player, which is why you don't want to go Ewing theory too soon on the guy, right? He's going to get, or you hope he's going to get more efficient.

He's going to take better shots over time. He's going to take higher percentage shots over time. He's going to get some of the bad shots out of his game. I think he needs to become more of a playmaker too. And I think my biggest concern or skepticism about the magic anyway, with a lot of people this year getting, you know, preseason hyperventilating about them being a contender. I was not in that group.

I just think their offense doesn't function to a, it's max capacity with those two because I think they're overlapping too much. And it's like, it's just one or the other. I don't think they're necessarily enhancing each other or the guys around them as a duo. I'm not sure this is a duo that fits long term, but it's way too early to give up on it. So yeah, we're not, we're not going to, we're not going to go down that road. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree with you, Howard. I just not, not finished enough of a product as a player for me to make that call on. I could make the argument that stats support them being better as someone else, you know, with someone else being the true one of that team. But I don't

think that at this stage in someone's career, it's fair to kind of make that assessment of them as a player. He's got too much to learn. Like now, I mean, you know, as we talk about all these guys, you know, the older and more stuck in your ways you get, the harder it becomes for a tiger to change those stripes, right? So like, if we're not going to be seeing the improvement in terms of efficiency and shot selection and so on and so forth, I mean, it would be fair in a couple years, but right now I don't think I'm ready to do that. I would just say, like, for young players, and I think we talked about Jha, and this is going to be quick because we just wanted to fuck around a little bit, but I think that for young players in Paolo's position, and we just talked about Jha, like, if you see there's

a deficiency or any type of deficiency when you're on the floor, but you have a chance to be to make your team great and better, work on them deficiencies, man, because for a long time, I'm thinking about Jai. Well, you can go back and listen to the archives of real ones with me and Raja talking about Jai. And, like, just the, I don't even know what the word to call it,

but just ignoring the fact that you need to improve your game. Like, Jaya's game has been the same as it's always been. He was a great raw prospect, right? Didn't improve his three-point shooting. didn't improve his defensive acumen. He could have been just an average defender and it would have been okay. And then you get to this point

where it's like now you're this high-priced guy, and I'm not specifically talking about Powell, I'm talking about young players of that ilk who have the chance to be stars. You have to work at it so you can uplift your team because that's the difference between not only you uplifting your team,

but if it don't work out with your team, you can go uplift another one and be adaptable in all of those things. I want that for Powell. Not to say he's not a hard worker or anything like that, but this is the time I would say that you need to work on the nooks and crannies of your game in order to make it better in order to fit alongside your guys. Because it's not, it ain't never going to be for Palo how it is right now in Orlando with any other team.

So that's something that I would just caution right now. Quick, quick addendum to that, which is just that superstars have more of a responsibility to their team than simply putting up massive numbers and especially massive scoring numbers. You need to impact winning at a super high level because you have a super high profile, a super high salary. You're supposed to make your teammates better, right? There's the old cliche, like make everybody around you better. So it can't just be, oh, I put up 25 and 10 every night or whatever.

It's your efficiency matters, your defense matters, how you work with your teammates matters. You know, your leadership matters. Like you have a responsibility. And so that's where Jha has fallen short. That's where Paolo as a younger player still, I think, is working toward. All of that. Quick side note, by the way, with Franz Wagner getting injured the other day, if he doesn't make the All-Star team, this is such a random thing, but I just have to throw it in there.

If he doesn't make the All-Star team, it will be the 28th consecutive year where no one drafted with the eighth pick makes an All-Star team. This comes from our friend Daniel Joyo, who wrote about this entire, weird subplot on the ringer.com a couple years ago, 2023, there's a piece by him about how the curse of the eighth pick has not made an all-star team in 27 years and this will be the 28th consecutive season if Franz now injured doesn't make it. So curse of the eighth pick. It's a great pool. Yeah.

All right. Staying on the magic. The floor is Rogers. We're passing a ball to Roger right now. Because we're good teammates, Logan. We're great teammates. We know who to, who, when to get the ball. balled our best player.

So anyways, MSG, Magic are down 10 with six minutes to go. Oceania Nobi gets a steal. Anthony Black makes a great fucking defensive play on a fast break. The ball goes into Desmond Baines' hands. Presumably he could take the ball and go on a fast break the other way.

He decides not to do that. He decides to throw the ball, dodgeball style, at O'G. Ananoby's rear end. causing a boo-haha, I believe a technical foul and a $35,000 fine for Desmond Bain. Roger your thoughts. Second time he's done it, by the way. Second time he's done it. The first time he did it was against Atlanta.

Similar play where he, well, he's the one that got the great defensive play and then throws the ball at the defender. Anyways, all that to say, your thoughts, we're clearing out. Yeah, I don't really, I don't think, this isn't an ISO. This isn't an ISO. I'm not, I don't feel like my matchup is great here. This isn't an ISO. Um, dodge ball is a phenomenal movie. Um, if you can dodge or wrench, you can dodge a ball. by these dodgeball dodge duck dip dive and dodge like love it um he did bean him like it was it was a crazy

play has he given any context as to why he did that is he explained himself in in i haven't i tried to look for it i didn't see any explanation i saw the fine um i i i don't know what to i don't know what to say about that logan i obviously everyone saw my my moment right where you know, I had had enough of what I perceived to be to have been shots to my face. I had asked the ref to stop. And then I just kind of had a blackout moment where I was like, fuck it, I'm going to handle it myself.

Everyone knows that. Everyone's seen that. So I can come from a place of experience and tell you that happens sometimes. Like if you're just at your wits end with what you think someone's doing to you, I don't, I didn't watch that game, but I didn't see anything in the reporting that said there was a buildup to that. I don't really know what happened there.

It was like he's short-circuited for a minute. It was pretty bizarre because he was, it wasn't like he was in jeopardy of falling out of bounds and made a judgment call on whether you were going to throw. He was in bounds, both feet down, and just rifled the ball at him. I don't know what to say about that. I'm like the court is, I mean, your basket is over there.

The other way. You have a matchup. You have a matchup advantage. Go run. Yeah, I don't have a clear out because I don't understand that. I don't understand. I don't understand. I don't understand what happened. Bro. Legler was on Zach's pot,

and he noted that back of the day that would have set up. a fight. Like, Annoby likes, wait, to your point, hold on, to your point, I want to set this up really quickly because I wanted to get Roz's perspective on this, because this is what Ananovi said. And also, for the younger kids, this type of quote is like the new diss, but he said about the Desmond Blaine play. I was confused at first. Then it was funny.

I like Desmond. He's a good dude. That's what the reaction was. They're so wild. It's also condescending, though. It is a bit condescending, but like, I was ready for hands to be thrown. on both occasions in Atlanta too. There was no hands thrown.

I didn't see. Well, no, when's the last time you've seen like real hands thrown? Like, that's just, that's, that's, we've legislated that out of the league, but still. Yeah. To Howard's point, I mean, to Howard's point, yeah, that's a broad, that's immediate, like, back, back, way back in the day. That was, that's crazy. I don't know, man. Not the media segment, I guess you guys probably thought you were going to get more out of me on this, but because I don't understand, because I have no understanding.

Because I have no understanding of what happened, I can't really explain it other than like I've had a, I've had a semi-blackout moment. Like, look, anyone that listens to this pot, it's not new to them. Like, through the course of my life, I've had a lot of those moments where like I've had enough of something and I might go to a place where you're just looking for the reason.

10 seconds later, 10 seconds later, you might be like, yo, why the fuck did you do that? And I'd be like, yo, bro, I have no idea. But, but I mean, that's all I can attribute that to. no idea what was going on there. Yeah. I don't know. It was, I love Desmond Bain as a player, but this kind of goes to the argument of like

the five picks and like the first round picks argument. Like he can't be your number one guy if he's going to be this not level headed, bro. Like he can't. And I think that, you know, you got that return. You wanted Desmond Bain on your team. You not want him to be said leader of your team. You know what's crazy about the play though? Well, here's what I'd say to you, Logan.

Because he lost the game. He essentially lost the game for them in that game for that action. You can be an emotional leader. Like those guys can be, I've referenced myself in this space sometimes. I wasn't going to be your leader leader, but there are teams where I was looked at to be an emotional leader. Right. We're in a lot of times too volatile to be your leader leader, not good enough players. But anyway, the crazy part about that play to me on top of the why.

of it all was he didn't look like like when when my moments happened or draymond's moments happen or when you have that moment you're that person's usually ready to fight like what's like let's go motherfucker what's up like he didn't look like that he said who oh it was like was like yeah just standing there which is bizarre to me because like if you've made the call like yo I'm gonna fuck him up bro like he's about to get fucked up once you do that I want to push back really quickly though to his credit in the game against that land He threw the ball at the opponent and said, don't do shit and point it in his face.

Okay. I didn't see that one. Right? As he got pushed back. So I'm not saying that Desmond Bain ain't about the smoke because I do believe in his heart or heart. He just has that like football player energy, right? He ain't got no neck.

He over here like this, right? Like I could see him folding somebody if need be. But I don't think it just happened in that particular play for whatever reason. Maybe he like OG and's like, you know what? I just threw it at him. That's it. We're good. You know what I mean?

But like, I don't know, back in your day and the generation before you, even if you liked somebody, y'all just love to fight. Y'all just love to fight. I don't know, buddy. I don't. Again, yeah, I'm not questioned Desmond Bain's toughness or anything like that at all. Not at all. And so I didn't see the Atlanta one, but you're giving me the kind of the insight I need. If you are going to be in someone with the ball, you're then going to go up to them and point at them and be like, yo, don't do that.

That says to me, you were triggered by something that happened, and your answer to that was to throw the ball. Whether that's right or wrong, all right, that's another conversation. You just are searching for the reason for the last. That's why you did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't understand the New York one. Logan, remind me because I, I can't remember when I last watched it.

The Hawks one I thought was one where it was more like he's in the air and it was like one of those, like I'm beating it off you to make it out of bounds off you and get it back. Whereas this one, yeah, as you noted in the intro to it, he could have just like turned and gone on court. He didn't have to. I think the Hawks won. Yeah, I think the Hawks one. Yeah, I think the Hawks one. I remember he went, he was Anthony Black in this situation against the Hawks where he, like, tried to, like, make a play on the ball. I don't know if he got called for a foul or not, but he was in the same position where he was in bounds and threw the ball. Yeah. Yeah, it's not the same as like when you're flying out of bounds and you bounce it off the guy who's still in bounds or whatever off their butt to make it go out of it and so you can get the ball back. Like, it was just weird. Like this one seemed. It was an exultally gratuitous. It was. It was. It was completely unnecessary, which is why you got fine. You're down 11, though. Go try to make a basket. Now, like, there's a technical foul.

You got to fucking, the other team shoots free throws. You take it completely the moment. It was, Anthony Black made it an incredible defensive play, Roger. Like, I mean, I know you saw it, but like, I just want to give kudos to that. I would be hell of mad if I made a great defensive play on that way. You get the ball and you just throw the ball at the guy. When we could go out on a fast break the other way. Yeah.

I know, I know. I'm just, I don't know. I don't let to say about it. By the way, magic report is, if you haven't already, please ask Desmond Bain why he keeps doing this because I can't find any quotes offhand either. I could, yeah, that's the craziest thing.

Let me just say a friend of the show, Ben Stiller, well, if we're ever doing that Dodgeball 2, where like I would, I'm still throwing my hat in the ring to be an analyst on one of the, uh, Desmond Bain would be a great, like, candidate. Yeah, cameo. We needed, we needed Ben on for like a guest segment today for like five

him. It's like break down Desmond Bain's dodgeball technique, right? That would have been dope. We need a bed. Next time you're on. We got to get into it. All right, man. Okay, we've been neglecting the people for a while, not been necessarily, but like all three of us have not done a mailback, I don't think, in a few weeks. So, Cardier Cliff was popping, brother. Good to see your face. Are you okay after last night? Are you good, bro? Oh, are you okay? Are you okay?

Yo, Cliff sent us a video, V&V in the chat about, like, he was in a car with all his partners, like, after leaving a bar from a Philly bar. And there was just so many expletives. And this is coming off the heels. Roz, you need to watch this podcast. There's a podcast that Memphis Bleak does on the Drink Champs channel where he just had Beanie Siegel on for an hour. And they're just talking, they're just talking Philly shit. You need to listen to that. But it's coming off the heels of that.

And then Cliff sends this video about the Eagles on the heels of the Eagles losing it. It's the same just shit, and I was really just scared. I'm not going to lie. Wait, why was you scared, though? That's just how we talk. Yeah, yeah. Y'all are different, bro. It's different.

It's December 9th. It's cold. You guys just said it was a real cold freeze on the East Coast. It's a cold winter. Y'all better bundle up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bro. You good, though? Yeah, look, man, I'm fine, man.

You know, the Eagles did win a Super Bowl in this calendar year, so I think I'll be okay. I think we're okay for now. But however, last night was a, it was very disappointing there. So let's get to the mailbag, man. We haven't done one of these in a while. This is from John Church, well. He says, why does no one want to play in the east? He says, hey, huge fan of the pod.

The news about Yonnas got me thinking, I feel like no superstars want to play in the east unless it's a New York City squad. Why do you think the conferences are so lopsided as they are? I know the West is California and Texas, but I feel like no superstar free agents want to come to the east unless they're moving to New York City or Miami. I get the appeal that a lot of, of teams in the west have Texas, Texas big cities in California being what it is. Outside of

Miami, I can't think of a team in the East that does well with getting big name guys and even the heat haven't hit on something big in a while. So Raj, sent you down there for Lauderdale, you know, a lot of my folks, a lot of my cousins, you got to take on this because I know, a lot of players in the league kind of like to migrate to the Phoenixes, the Clippers, the Lakers, you know, teams like that. Yeah, I mean, you know, I can't speak to today's player. I've been one in a while. I think there are in terms of things to get into, you know, social options that whether, you know, would factor into, there's more opportunity in some of those places. You know, I love Philly, but I got family from Philly. My wife's family is from New York.

I have family in that D.C. area and stuff like that Jersey, too. Like, I know that whole area. You got the whole East Coast, right? And it's dope. No, real talk. It's dope. Atlantic. family in Atlanta, but like that corridor, especially the northeast, when it gets cold, um, your options are limited. You know what I mean? Like you just, you know, and so, you know, if you're going to be indoors, hooping and, and working the whole time, but given the opportunity when you're not working to be able to be outside, maybe play some golf and stuff like that, I, you know, I don't know. I think it's probably as simple as that. Miami's always a destination because the weather is good and, and you can be outside and there's shit to do. Um, other than that, I don't

really know. I weirdly played most of my career on the West Coast, too, which wasn't great for me in terms of my family, but, but like, that's just how it wound up. Yeah, I don't know. I don't have a great answer there, but I would say that weather would, an opportunity to be outside of doing some shit is a factor when you're comparing apples to apples in terms of like salary or opportunity to win and stuff like that. I'm sorry, Cliff. Didn't you just get Paul George, like a couple summers ago? Didn't he shoes to go to Philadelphia? But Logan, I think that bag was talking more than...

Yeah, look, the bag always talks. Like, that's just... I just want to say before we get to Howard to answer this question, he's probably going to have a much more profound answer than Roger is the case. But we were on a... To your point, Roger, about the cold,

we had the pre-pop meeting yesterday and Cliff and Howard are just bundled fucking freezing. Just like... Clip just got back from the gym. And it's like, zz-d-d-da-da-da-da. Like, what's wrong, bro?

He's like, it's, it's brick. It's brick out here. Howard, you good? You good? And I'm over here. I just,

it's 44 degrees of debate. And I'm over here with my little North Face. And they're like, shut the fuck up, Logan. Me and Ben Cruz over, like, it's just cold.

And they're like, shut up. Like, that cold in the East Coast just do something to you. It just make you mean. It's just like, remember that scene in Paper Soldiers,

Roger, where Beanie Siegel slapped like seven dudes at a barbershop for no reason. I don't know if you saw that. That's what the Philly cold does to you. That's what it does. I mean this. I mean this.

I mean affectionately, right? Like, because my family was in Philly and most of my time, I spent two years in Westchester, like, in the winters. But most of my time in Philly was when I was out of school, so it was summertime, you know, beautiful shit to do. You're outside. Gorgeous, right? Same with New York.

But, boy, when I was there for those, that season and a half, and people asked me about Philly, I mean, like, that shit is rough, dog. When it is cold. That shit is a rough, rough place. People look rough because it's so cold. So I'm with you. I'm with you, Logan.

That's how you earn that beer. Yeah. All right, Howard, what were you going to say? I apologize. Oh, man. It's great that we can work in a weather segment here on the real ones. It's in a while. We're such a versatile crew.

The funny thing about the question, thank you, John Churchill for the question, is that actually when you look at where the stars are in the NBA, they're with the team that drafted them. So like, oh, right, Yokic, best player in the league is in Denver. They drafted him. Janus is in Milwaukee. They drafted him. Jason Tatum is in Boston.

They drafted him. Luca has been with two Western Conference teams, but, well, let's see, Atlanta actually drafted him, but they foolishly traded him to Dallas. But Dallas then foolishly traded him to L.A., but point being, Luca didn't choose his destinations. Shea drafted with a Hornets pick, by the way, by the Clippers. and is now in Oklahoma. Shingunnaman, Thompson, in Houston,

Wembe, Ann Edwards, Booker, Steph Curry. All these guys were drafted to the teams that have them. So it's not like this was a matter of choosing the destination. It happens sometimes, right? But like one of the bigger moments of like superstar free agency in the last whatever 10 years was Kyrie and Kady choosing Brooklyn in 2019. So that, like, I know that the, you know, the question was about like, it seems like only New York.

And I think he was referring mostly to the Knicks. But like, all right, guys have chosen. Paul George, as you noted, Logan, guys have chosen Eastern Conference cities. It's more that most guys move around by trade than free agency. Or if you're a superstar that's been with a team, if there's a disparity between the two conferences, it's mostly due to the draft. So, like, you can find other examples, right? But, you know, Hardin, when he wanted to be traded out of Houston, wanted to be traded to Brooklyn.

And then when he soured on Brooklyn, he wanted to be traded to Philly. And then eventually, oh, now he's in L.A. at the tail end. But I just, there's no simple answer to the East West thing in terms of where the talent is, the top level talent is because there's been so many different factors. And guys aren't bouncing around via free agency as much. It's mostly by trade, sometimes a trade that they force, but sometimes just out of the blue. So I don't know. Eastern Conference, I believe also is like just over the last, I would say, what, 20 years has just had the bad fortune of like not great front office work. Right?

Yeah. You know, you brought up the NICS. I mean, before, you know, the CIA takeover, they were pretty bad in terms of their front office and the people that they pick with Phil Jackson. A lot of those, like the big time front office was in Miami, right? It just happened to be a great weather city, right? But when you look at the, if you look at the Western Conference, right, for years, you know, that, you know, Bob Myers was in there, right? You talk about Denver, just finding Yokic and you talk about the spurs for all those. years. The thunder under Sam Presti, right? They just all happened to reside in the Western

Conference, right? At a time when the Eastern Conference just didn't have great executives, right? And like, you know, sorry, like the tanking Sixers for like fucking five, six years, the trust the process Sixers. You know, you just have, you have groups that just don't. But that's why Amb is there, Logan, like, I mean, it's, I'm not, I'm just saying, you talk about like people not wanting to come. Like, okay, yes, it did help out during, to get Joelle and B, but for years, it's like they put out a product that was. so inferior that no Frayson was going to want to come to the Sixers if that was, but that wasn't their plan, but no team is going to, no big time for agent was going to

go to that. There's an important note within this too, which is like the Donovan Mitchell example. Donovan Mitchell decides it's time for things to end in Utah. His goal is to get to New York. He wanted to play for the Knicks. Everybody knew it. The Cavs make the offer that the Jazz liked better. He ends up in Cleveland. We're all speculating. The whole league is speculating. He's not going to stay because he really wants to be in New York. And he resign in Cleveland. Why? Because he likes it. He likes it. He likes it. He's not going to stay. He's what they were doing. So to your front office point, the calves under Kobe Altman have made a lot of really smart moves, including the all-in gambit that cost them a lot of picks to get Donovan Mitchell

and drafting Garland and Mowgli and trading for Jared Allen. Like, they've put together a good team to where Donovan Mitchell's like, you know what? Yeah, I did want to get to New York. But you know what? I'm good here, man. Like, we can compete here. We can contend here. And so you've got to do right by the stars that you've got. And like if Yonis ends up leaving Milwaukee, it's going to be because, well, yeah, we won a championship, but then things started eroding. Like, it's all these other factors. It's never just about the weather or whatever else. I think this is the end of our extended weather segment.

One more, one more, because I got shit to do when Rod's, uh, I'm already texting. Let's get to this last one from Tyler Finley. This is a player appreciation. Hey, Legends, do you guys have a player you wish had, you had appreciated more in the moment? For me, it's Blake Griffin. I love watching him, but knowing now that we don't have anyone like him, I wish I'd appreciated him in the league more. Cheers, Tyler.

That's a great question. Hmm. Yeah, I don't know. Go ahead. Who I appreciated more to watch as a player. Blake was a lot of fun, man. And also, by the way, Blake has been fucking great on Amazon. Amazon price put together a great studio show.

Like, low key with ESPN not, like, really using inside the NBA, but in spurts. I think Amazon might have the best show right now, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, until the inside guys come back out of like hibernation whenever that's going to be. Amazon's killing it. They've been great. I'm trying to think this is a really great question that I've never really considered. I don't know. I've been full of a lot, man. Every player that I've ever wanted to see in live, I've pretty much seen them. I have a different one. Like I wish that, I will say this, man. I wish that I saw Lamar Otom at his full capacity. I'll say that.

Just what a fucking talent he was, right? Like if he had it all the way together, like just, you know, personal life and everything. And we saw it in spurts on that six man at a year. But like, dude was a problem and was ahead of his time when you just talk about that. I often think, and I always say this in press rooms, but if we could have seen Lamar Odom, like Prime Lamarodom, him, even like who he was as a person as on the 2015-16 warriors, that would have been so much fun to watch. Like, oh my goodness. I just love watching Lamar Odom play. I think he would have been good.

I think same with Ron Ortiz, like if he had everything, you know, he had it in spurts, but he was such a really, really good player. But Lamar Odom is always the guy that I'm like, damn, I wish I would have seen him at full capacity. Yeah. I mean, it's tough. There's so many, I was blessed to play with a lot of great players. And in general, I think given the opportunity to go back, I would have appreciated

every player that I played with. Like that went by so fast that I didn't have time to soak it all up like I should have. So probably everyone. But like I'll see clips sometimes of guys and their games just catch me in a way that I'm like, damn, like he was doing that.

And so I'll use a couple of those guys as people. Jay Will. I was thinking about Jay Will. Yeah, that's a good one. You know, he was ahead of his time, man. Yeah, man. He was crazy. He was cool.

what um and and someone that i played with but i got him when he was kind of forgive me old um as an nba player and he was still coming in looking for the mavs in really in really critical moments was quick nick van exel wow yeah his game goes a totally different way with like two different moves a two different moves don't happen he is a he's looked out completely different yeah you could speak to that. I'm speaking purely about like some of the flair and shot making that he had to his game that I don't think I fully appreciated at the time when I was, you know, in a lot of that corridor

time, I was so busy being a college player or trying to be pro player that I didn't have the time to invest and just watch it. There weren't really, I couldn't watch a Denver game when you just wanted to watch a Denver game. But yeah, those two would be for me. I mean, amongst a lot of them, but those two. Hey, right, I love my favorite thing about Nick Van Exo is that he would basically shoot a college three as a free throw. Oh, dude. Just great.

That was his fix because he was struggling from the free, if I remember correctly, he was struggling from the free throw line. So he would go up and he would take like two steps back. Yeah. And that was, yeah, that was wild. I once got Dale Harris on the phone for like an hour for a Nick Van Exel store. It was amazing. Only an hour? You get Dell on the phone.

It's never just an hour. It's usually a novice. I was a novice. I was a novice. I could have been, but I might have cut him off because I was just tired. The over under on the number of questions you asked to get him for an hour is two. Yeah, it was under. It was great.

He gave me everything I needed. That was what it was. That was the best. My favorite player before I was a journalist covering the league, right? In my fandom years, my last fandom years in the 90s, I freaking loved Scotty Pippen because of like just the grace in his game. And so I use it as a leaping off point to say that I think my answer to this question might be Tracy McGrady, which is like there's a little bit of a lineage there, right, Roger? Like Tracy, he had like it was, you know, he was long and he just could just get places that other guys couldn't.

And he had like the handle and the moves and just a gracefulness to him. He was an aesthetically pleasing basketball player. He was fun to watch. And, you know, like Tracy's career somewhat cut short. by all the injuries, also just situations that went bad and, you know, Grant Hill's injuries when they were both in Orlando together. And like, it's not so much whether or not I could appreciate him in the moment. Like, you know, look, I was covering other teams. So I only got to see him in up close when he was playing the team I was covering, whether it was the Lakers or then the Knicks.

But it's also just like, yeah, I wish I'd gotten to see more of him, but I also wish there had been more of him. And Grant Hill for if as long as I'm mentioning him, that too, because like these guys were fucking awesome before injuries just kind of derailed. though, if Tim Duncan would have went to Orlando. Yeah, that was the thing. Like, they were, they were, they were, they cleared the cap room to get all three. That was like, like the first time, I believe in the cap era where a team had done the, we're going to clear the cap and just go all in.

We're letting everybody expire. And they, they, they, the goal was Grant Hill and McGready and Duncan and he seriously considered it before re-uping in San Antonio. So, yeah, there's a, there's a massive what if right there. They're all six, seven long, like swooping, unfolding at the. rim type of players. Yeah. Pretty cool to watch.

Quick, Tracy McGrady's story before we get out. Second year in Philly. I'm supposed to kind of be in the rotation. At least they thought I would be, but I wasn't good enough to do that. So I was sitting, you know, most nights. My games were playing Mike Woodson in a pregame workout. I'd play him one-on-one, and then I'd, you know, cool down, warm up, sit on the

bench and eat my Snickers bar. Well, this particular game, it was touch and go whether Matt Harpering was going to play. That was Tracy McGrady's match. up, right? Touch and go, touch and go. Larry Brown comes to me. I've not prepared well to play in the game and says, yeah, Matt's not playing tonight. You got to get Tracy McGrady. You're going to start. I'm like, oh, okay. So then he starts giving me like a little details. I forget exactly what they were. He's like, hey, play his left hand and say, you know what? Nobody can fucking garner anyway. Just go out there and do your best. And he walked away. I said, okay, thanks, coach.

How'd you do? Probably not well. I mean, I don't really recall how the game. game went they typically did not go well for me in that season but i just always appreciated that like larry brown was going through what you would do and then he was like this is this makes this makes who cares just go out there try your best yeah man he was fucking nuts right i never got to see him play live i wish i did crazy crazy it was insane you know it's crazy real quick however to your point about like seeing players before you um cover the league and like seeing them after like i'm going through that process right now. Like this generation of like the Durants, the LeBron's, the Stephs is weird because

these are all players that I still watch when I was in high school and they're still in the league right now. And like, I'm just, I'm almost at the place where it's like, oh, there's not going to be any more players left from like my high school days. So it's just weird to like kind of go through this, right? Because you got to turn it off. You have to turn it off. And it's just an interesting like thing to go through when you're, when you're, I mean,

you went through it with Scotty. So, like, it's a weird, just a gesture. I want to add one. Can I add one? Sorry, Howard, I mean to get Josh. Yeah, no, no, go. I would have appreciated Vince Carter more. Oh, yeah.

When he was in the prime, I would have appreciated that more because that, you see some clips of that. You're like, Jesus Christ, that's crazy. Yeah. He's bad motherfucker. You played in a great era, Ra. Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was a pretty good, fucking era. The Forrest Gump of Real Ones Raja Bell.

That is Howard Beck. I'm Logan Murdoch. That has been another edition of Real Ones. Make sure you're tapping what it's Real Onesmailback at gmail.com. Real onesmail back at gmail.com. Real ones mailback at Gmail.com. We do this every Tuesday. At least we try to.

Without me, Raj and Howard and Cliff. Thanks for joining us. We will see you guys on Friday. A, A, A, A, all this shit. Bye! Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino, who are 18 and older and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming.

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