The Ringer NBA Show - The Fast & Furious Grizzlies, SGA Is the Future, and Why the Bucks Don’t Get Their Due | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 15, 2020

We discuss the impressive new-era Grizzlies (1:57), teams looking to go all in at the trade deadline (18:16), contenders that are positioned to make a big second-half push (31:39), and the blossoming of Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (39:42). Then we debate why the Milwaukee Bucks are not getting prevalent recognition as the best team in the NBA (48:49). Host: Justin Verrier Guests: Jonathan Tjarks and Rob Mahoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. This week, to celebrate the 100th episode of The Rewatchables podcast, Quentin Tarrantino returns for the third and final movie in his three-part series with us. In the final episode, Bill Simmons and Sean Fennacy discussed with Quentin one of his favorite movies, the 1990 crime thriller King of New York. Make sure to check out this special episode and follow at the Rewatchables on Twitter for highlights of all 100 episodes. Basketball is very good. The Nuggets should trade. no one. Kauai should rest even more games.

The Knicks should build around Marcus Morris. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the group chat. It me, Justin Verrier. Chris Ryan is now with us. He is on location filming a super secret project that they will bring to you in the near future.

But with me from Texas, our first of two guests from Texas. He is the Brandon Clark. to my Taylor Jenkins. It is Jonathan Charks. What's up, buddy? Nice. How you doing, man? I am great. How are you? Hey, I'm loving these Grizzlies. My guy, Taylor Jenkins, coach of the year. Let's get it going. Yeah. We'll get to the Grizzlies. On today's episode, we're going to talk a bunch about the midseason or the NBA at the midseason point. I think officially today is the halfway point of the 2019-20 season. We have five questions for Charks that are the most interesting ones going forward in the second half,

according to me. And then eventually we will bring on Rob Mahoney for his first appearance on the Ringer NBA show to talk. Oh, that's big. Yeah, a little bit more in depth about the bucks. Breaking his seal there, Justin. Yeah, he's a big get for us, you know?

It took a lot to really convince him to come on. I made cease and acquisition, yeah. There you go. Perfect. So let's talk about these Grizzlies sharks. Last night, one of the more exciting games that I've watched in a very long time, they took it to the Rockets. John Morant had a dazzling play

pretty much every two seconds. And that ended up being the Grizzly 6th win in a row. They are now pretty solidly in that eighth spot in the Western Conference. And to me, I think they look like probably the best

team in that pretty tight race toward the bottom of the West. So let's get to our first question for you. Are the Grizzlies for real? I think so. I think they found something. I don't think they're going to fall back too much from here. I'm not sure they actually make this number eight seed,

but I don't think they're going to be where they thought they were they started the season. Yeah, I think my biggest takeaway from last night was just how measured and mature they are, despite the fact that the core of their team comes from incredibly young players. John Moran is obviously a rookie. Jaron Jackson Jr. in his second year,

and even Brandon Clark, is playing significant minutes for them. He's also a rookie. It just feels like they have already put together a team that is able to match up with a lot of different teams. It seems like they have a very versatile roster and also kind of wise beyond their years. Jha was just like kind of going at Hardin

at one point where Hardin kind of slumped off of him, I think on a screen, and Jha just like drilled a top of the key three and was just like, don't do that. Like he used much more profane words, but he's already playing like a superstar. And I think that's really encouraging to see not only going forward with this core,

but perhaps throughout the rest of the second half. Yeah, all the pieces, fit really well together, which is really impressive for a young team. Well, we were talking in Slack last night about the Kings and the Grizzlies. And I feel like John Deerran Fox are fairly similar players. But you look at their teams, right? Deeran's playing with a bunch of older guys, not a lot of floor spacing. The game was a little slower. He has no room to get to the rim. Whereas Jaws playing in a fast-paced system, he has three-point shooting everywhere around him. So, like, even though Jaws not shooting a lot of threes, he doesn't have to on this team because they space.

the floor for him, and he can find the actual shooters. Yeah, I think the kings are a particularly good comp, because it does feel like the grizzlies are becoming the kings of this season, right? And I think it's really interesting that amongst the teams that we all expected to perhaps take a mini-leap, you know, the young teams that have a star or soon-to-be star, and perhaps those are the teams that would, like, crack into the A-seat. I'm thinking about the Sons. I'm thinking about the Kings.

I'm thinking about the Timberwolves. and all of a sudden the Grizzlies, who we all expected to be a couple years away, they've kind of leaped ahead of those teams. And even if they don't get the eighth seed, I do feel like they have perhaps the brightest future of any of those teams, just considering just like what they've been able to build and like how they could just really only need just supplementary pieces around this Morant Jaron Jackson Corps that they built. One guy that I think you are particularly excited on,

and this is a very Charks pick, is DeAnthony Melton. Can you tell us a little bit? I was just going to say you forgot the third member of the Corps. The big three here. Well, no, Brandon Clark has to be in there. That's true. It's a big four. It's a big four.

Melton's the fourth. So they basically had a challenge trade with the sons in which they gave Javon Carter, right, to the sons? Yeah. Well, really what it was, the sons were dumping Josh Jackson's salary. Right. And everyone was like, oh, man, if the Grizzlies can get Josh Jackson going top five pick. but I think what really happened was the Grizzlies

who wanted D. Anthony Melton the whole time which no one really saw coming and like these numbers, his numbers, they don't even seem plausible. So check this out, Justin. When melons on the floor, the Grizzlies are plus 12 this season.

When melons off the floor, they're minus seven. That's a 19 points in that rating. That's like LeBron, Kauai Leonard, like Giannis like numbers. It's unbelievable. Yeah, that's super surprised.

especially because you'd expect backcourt of Melton and Morant to cause a lot of issues in terms of spacing, no? Yeah, I mean, Melton is a six-foot-two shooting guard who doesn't shoot threes. So you look at him, you're like, well, what's his place in the league? You can see why he fell to the second rounds. And I think this is where you can really see the value of net rating because in a different world, like five years ago,

you might see someone say, oh, you know, Melton makes great plays. Everyone's like, whatever, who cares, bench player. doesn't matter. But the numbers kind of speak for themselves. And when he's on the floor, he just, it's bizarre, man. He just seems to always be in the right place at the right time, whether it's offense or defense. I was looking like the one numbers he does have are his stealing block numbers. He kind of plays like a much bigger player. He creates a lot of fast breaks by turning their team over. And in the open floor, he makes great passes. He makes like great

decisions too. He's just really, he's one of the most unique players in the NBA. And it's freaking amazing how good he's been. And really, Justin, their run started when he got in the rotation early December. That's what I really changed for that. Right. It definitely helps that John Morant is shooting three as well. He's up to 41% on the season, which I think is surprising for anyone who watched him in college.

Everyone expected, I didn't think, Charks, you wrote about this. When he was still at Murray State, we expected him to struggle from the three-point line, still shooting them at low volume, but that's encouraging. And it helps, you know, be like you're able to play Mellon perhaps even more when you have that. Dylan Brooks, another guy who's really taken a leap this year. Obviously, he was involved in the infamous Brooks non-trade that happened last year where...

The Brooks Brothers, yeah. The Brooks Brothers, right? It seemed like the Grizzlies would end up with Kelly Ubre. And I think earlier this season, everyone was looking at Ubre's fast start and thinking, man, what if the Grizzlies had him, he'd be a great fit on the wing. But all of a sudden, Brooks is healthy. he's playing more shooting 36% from three point land, and he does feel like just a critical part of that rotation.

I think altogether, though, I'm most encouraged, just because a lot of young teams, everyone talks about identity. Like, who are they? How are they going to play? Like, really, like, how do they fit into the fabric of the league? I think the best thing that the Grizzlies have going for them is they immediately have an identity. They once had grit and grind,

but now this is just like run and gun. And you could see that they play with this just like energy and spirit. And you have to credit, if not Jackson, then definitely Morant for that. It feels like this team plays like a Morant team. And that's super encouraging if you're just like trying to build something from the ground up. Well, I mean, really Jenkins, but we'll let that slide. Right. All those years battling you in the post.

I guess it's like, you know, maybe it can be like fast and furious. Because it's like the exact opposite of grit and grind, right? Yeah. Instead of a slow it down team, it's super, super, super, fast. Right. It's the complete opposite. And yet there's something at the core that feels very familiar.

It feels like there's just something there. It's like it's spirit, it's energy. I don't know what it is, but it definitely feels like they play with a charisma, right? And it provides almost armor for our young team where you probably think that you could play against the spurs, the rockets, and the worries. You know what you mean? Yeah, they're definitely playing with a lot of confidence. And the way they play, I guess maybe it's like they kind of dictate the style of

the game. Yes. When it was grit and grind, we're going to make you play slower. And now, like, they're so fast, they spread the floor so well, and they're pretty aggressive on defense. So they kind of make you spread,

they make you play faster. There was a game against the Spurs where it was like 135, 125, 125. And the Spurs don't want to run the ball, but they really had no choice but to push the taste because they were doing all the time

the Grizzlies. Right. And so now a team that we all expected to be pretty significant sellers at the deadline, considering that they have two players that a lot of contenders probably covet in Jay Crowder

and then Andre Aguadala who is somewhere in the bay probably reading like Steve Jobs' biography right now. He's golfing right now as we speak. Right, right. All of a sudden, I wonder if the Grizzlies flipped the other way and they're a team that could be looking to add pieces.

Now, the Iguidala thing is interesting. I tweeted last night. I got off of out of retirement on the Twitters and fired off a tweet. Oh, there's breaking news. Yeah, there you go. I know. But isn't Andre Guadala, and by the way, I got a I got an RT from our guy, Isaac, who is nursing a major

behind this divider between us right now. Playing through injury, you know. But thank you for contributing with that RT, man. I appreciate that. Considering your tremendous following on Twitter now. Tremendous. I just love to champion good content. There you go.

Thank you. But, I mean, every team probably needs an Iguidala, not only just the LA teams who are the ones that you most often hear. with Iguada, but also Dallas, you know, the Sixers, he would fit there, even though the money would be tough to really kind of match. But wouldn't it be great if Iguodala just all of a sudden decided that he just wants to stay in Memphis

and make a go with this team? I think stay in Memphis would imply that he's ever been to Memphis in the last six months. That's a great point. But that's probably not going to happen. It does feel like they need one player like that, and all of a sudden,

that's enough to perhaps propel them in this eighth seed race because one of the biggest questions I think, which is ancillary to the whole question about the grids going forward into the second half, is what is going to happen in this ace seed race for the Western Conference. It feels like every team is pretty much in it except for the Warriors. And even they, at some point, will get Steph Curry back and maybe even Clay Thompson.

And you'd expect considering that they probably want to figure out the DeAngelo Russell, Steph Curry, that they'll probably play those guys a little bit more than you expect for a season that just like isn't going anywhere. And so at the very least, they won't be a tough out, or at least I expect them not to be. But you have the Grizzlies, the Spurs, the Blazers, the Sons, the Timberwolves, the Kings, and the Pelicans. All of them are reasonably still.

And the Pelicans are the farthest back at four games from the Grizzlies. But Zion could be starting as soon as tomorrow. Yeah. And so I wonder, Chark, if you're sizing up this Royal Rumble, who would you put your money on going forward? Yeah, this is suddenly pretty interesting. It was pretty miserable for the first half of the season,

but a lot of those teams you mentioned have kind of figured things out and are playing better right now. I'm going to go with the Pelicans. Your Pelicans. My Pelicans. I really believe in Zion. I mean, you saw it could do it in the preseason. The rest of their players are playing well.

And I just think if you can play Zion, Ingram, Lanzo, Drew, Reddick, that could be like a top five lineup in the league right now. Yeah, I agree that perhaps, like, on paper, they probably have the best team. It's the same case you would make for them going into the season as the AC is just they're surprisingly deep in veterans. And if Zion is who we all expect him to be,

this team could be pretty good. They're already playing, as you wrote, pretty recently for us on the website. They're already playing significantly better before Zion even gets there. and if all parties are healthy and nobody gets traded, all of a sudden you have a pretty good core. My question, and perhaps this is because I've seen this story before,

is are all of those guys who have been hurt earlier this season going to be available? Are we expecting them to be healthy because they've been hurt earlier in the season? Is that just like kind of a fallacy? Because even during this mini run that they kind of had, Drew Holiday hasn't played in the last five or so games, Derek Favors has been in the lineup as everyone knows and while they've been really good with him in there, I do wonder like long term how many these guys are going to show up

but I would go Spurs I think and I think for similar reasons I think that there's just enough veteran talent there and it's kind of funny how we were writing off the Spurs everyone was writing their

obituaries and honestly probably more than ever before they were warranted but then Lamarcus Aldra's just takes two steps back and all of a sudden this is a different team you know? It's amazing how that works, right? Sometimes, you know, it isn't that complicated.

Lamarcus is like 35. Shoot threes, man. It's easier. I don't know. It just seems like there's enough just institutional knowledge there and just history with them doing this exact same thing.

And, you know, if you look, the team isn't that bad. I think everyone expected them to play much better than they have this season and considering, maybe if the West wasn't this tight, this would be the end of the spurs. But they still have a lot of guys, and they have a lot of guys with upside,

where there are a team that doesn't typically make a move at the deadline, but guys like DeJante Murray could take another step, Derek White, and you've seen what can happen with a little bit of space. Not only is Aldridge adding the three-pointer and the added value of a three-pointer into their offense, you've seen other guys play off of him and have a little bit more freedom. and I don't know. To me, that just makes a lot of sense

for the Spurs to kind of pop in there. There's actually some similarities between Memphis and San Antonio and that they're both actually powered by their bench. You look at their net rating numbers,

their benches are kind of winning games for them. And the change for San Antonio is now with Lamarcus shooting threes. They can play even with their starters. Because the start of the season, they were getting blitz when it was Lamarcus and the Rosen because both those guys were kind of getting

in each other's ways. And I think it's like, I read an article from Mike prayed the other day about Lamarcus. And what it really is, him taking more threes is him acknowledging the spot in the pecking order, right? Because what's happened to the league now is the best players still take a lot of mid-range shots, the guys who hold the ball, your James, your superstars, right? It's everybody else who's pressed the floor for them who don't take as many mid-rangers. So Lamarcus, like, stepping back, but he's literally stepping back, not only in terms of where he is

in the court, but with him and DeRosen, okay, it's the Rosen's team, I'm playing off to Rosen. and this can work, as opposed to kind of both those guys won the ball in the mid-range. Yeah, I think everyone expects Lamarcus to be Duncan-esque, not only because of their similar body types,

maybe like some similarities and just like where they play physically on the court, but also Alders doesn't feel like an excitable type. But it seems over the course of his entire run in San Antonio, like he has been one to perhaps bristle at exactly what you're talking about, perhaps not being the guy at the center of the offense,

the guy at the top of the pecking order. And it seemed like even this season, it took him some time to figure that out. And now that he's not doing that, it just seems like everything just works a little bit better. And like, as you mentioned, yeah, the bench thing was significant for them last season. No, when Davos Bertans was the star of the show.

And I think that like the first half of the season, you definitely saw them struggling to try to fill that void, you know? Yeah, and it's funny, like, talk about the Spurs doing the Spurs things. Then you watch Bertans in Washington, and he's one of the most exciting players in the league. After, like, years in San Antonio coming off the bench, taking like two, threes a game, like, running a little offense. And it's like, man, there's, when those guys leave San Antonio, somehow to become better. And for much we're talking about them, like, if the gritties make the playoffs, if the Pelicans make the playoffs, they'll both lose to Lakers. It would still be exciting to watch the Spurs crawl to the playoffs for another, like,

four game or five game sweep in the first rounds. Like what a way to end this run? Just beat downs every year by the one seed. Yeah. I definitely like want to see the Pelicans make this A seed or the Grizzlies just in order to have that first round matchup. I really don't want to have a Spurs Lakers

series, but I don't know. It just seems like everything is starting to click there. Even though our guy Bertans is playing in Siberia and just probably waiting for a reprieve at the deadline to join a contending team. Which brings us to our next question, Tarks.

This one is one that we'll probably be talking about for the next couple of weeks here until the trade deadline, which is on February 6th. Which contender will go all in at the deadline? Do you have a team that you're eye in? It's just tough. It's tough to see really many trades out there this year. It doesn't feel like there's many teams who want to sell. I mean, who do you think? No, I agree with you.

Bill has talked about this a lot and there's just something with the way that the entire just I guess financial structure of a lot of the franchises out there where it's almost like the cap sheets are organized almost too well where the best players make a ton of money

and some of the other players don't and there are just so few in between contracts which are the ones that help make the math work. I think if you're looking at it though I think the teams that are most motivated to trade will find a way to do something And so if I'm looking at this question, I'm looking at the teams who need to.

So one team that comes up are Isaac's clippers who haven't been doing particularly well of late to the point where they're starting to get questions about this and Kauai, the top headline on ESPN.com's news stack is Kauai, Eclipse, have fun,

don't rush title race, which a little ironic considering that he's only there for about two seasons and pretty much hijacked that franchise in order specifically to win a title. Isaac, how you feeling right now, by the way? We still have a good record, you know, beat the Cavs last night by a considerable margin,

but it's the Cavs, and they were without Kevin Love, and Kauai scored 43 points, and this team, Kauai is good. Listen, Kauai is good. I've heard that, yeah. Yeah, he's a great basketball player, as we all know. 43 last night? Yeah, 43, and basically just like single-handedly built up a lead so insurmountable that, you know, He didn't, I don't think he played much of the fourth quarter. But some nights you can rely on Kauai, but some nights he's not going to play.

And some nights Paul George is going to play. Some nights Paul George isn't going to shoot well. And that's been a problem with the inconsistencies in the roster. It's not just the two stars. There have been pieces around them that have been in or out of the lineup. And the whole balance between playing Evita Zubats and Montres-Herald has been really weird this season. because Zubats has taken a step up, and when should you play Zoo?

When should you play Trez? When should you play them together? The roster has some questions that I didn't foresee Doc Rivers and the Clippers having early on in the season. So we'll see if they make a trade. I think they're looking to. I think they will. Maybe the Darren Collison thing will come through

or the Andre Aguadala thing will come through, but we shouldn't really hang our hopes on that, I don't think. Yeah, Isaac, I think you make a good point about the center rotation. And that really feels to me as the big question about this team. Because I was thinking about it with Trez, right? I looked at his numbers. He's only played in one playoff six games before. So if you're thinking this guy is going to go to the NBA finals,

he's going to have to play like 30 games in two months. Right. How much juice does he have? What if he has to go up against like Stephen Adams, Nicola Yokic, Anthony Davis, and then go play in the finals? Does he have enough that gas in his tank to play that month, to play his style of play for that long. And he's just so small.

Right. And I was looking at like the Zubotch Harold thing. My guess is they don't feel like they cannot play Harold his minutes because Harold's a free agent this summer, right? Yeah. If they cut his minutes back, he's going to be pissed. Yeah. Tres plays every game like it's the finals, which you'd expect to help them in a final series

because he's just, I don't think he'll wilt from the moment or just from the spotlight. He didn't against the Warriors last year in the playoffs. But at the same time, you're right. It does take a lot of pounding, and he does do a lot for that team. Yeah, I mean, and just in an Anthony Davis series, right, do you really trust Montrez and Zubatch? Or is it to meet you Michael Green? That, to me, if I'm the Clippers,

that's the questioning over this whole season is Anthony Davis in the conference finals. Well, you've talked about this. Doesn't it have to be Kauai, DeGar Davis? God. I mean, I don't know. That's a lot to ask of Kauai when he's hobbling around out there. So what would it be theoretically?

it would be Kauai on AD and then Paul George on LeBron? Yeah, which, you know, LeBron has some weight on George. You could definitely throw his muscle around against them. I don't know. This is probably the matchup that will decide the entire NBA, to be honest, which is why even when I was dubious about the Lakers to start the season, the biggest question I had was who was going to guard AD in the playoffs.

I don't know. It's a good one, and I do think that's something that the Clippers will probably look at at the trade deadline. I'd expect them like Isaac to do something. It just feels like they have this draft pick. It's not going to be worth their while to just pick, I don't know what, 25th, especially considering that their window, as I mentioned, is really these two years and we'll see what happens after that.

And if anything, like, if you know that Andrea Godala is going to go to, let's say, the Mavericks, wouldn't you just try to best their offer, if only just to block him? I don't know. That's a good question. Yeah, no, I think about it. I really do think the clippers are going to make. a move. Like, now we've kind of broken it down a little bit. They just seem like they already went

all in any ways. They have pieces to move if they need to. Let me throw this at you. This is a trade, a friend of mine who works in the league was throwing out there, not based on any information, but just working the trade machine. So, the clippers need a center, perhaps, right? The 76ers

happen to have an extra one now that they've leaned into Ben Simmons as their Lord and Savior. What if the clippers traded for Joel and Bede? what would be the trade so it would be in bead for trez

sham it moharkless to make the money work and let's just say their first round pick that's less than for tobias Harris the trade last year that seems like a very low price that the clippers would be paying for a superstar center

well this is before trez becomes an all-star center in the east obviously sure look look I think Montres Herald should win six-man of the year, by the way. Like, that's not, I really think he's having a phenomenal season, but he's no Joel Embed. Come on. That's ridiculous.

And giving them sham it back and Mo Harkless, like, that's really, the talent disparity there in the assets is really, it's tough. Unless you think, unless the Sixers are certain that Joel Embed is such an injury risk, that there's no way that he's going to remain healthy for the playoffs. But I don't think that's the case at all. Yeah, I mean, they might trade Embed eventually, but that's not very realistic. Is that not a better team for Ben Simmons? Is Trez at Center, shaman on the wing, not a better team if you were going to lean into a team built around Ben? It absolutely is, but giving up on a talent as dominant and as great as Joel Embed, it just doesn't seem to mathematically line up.

Even though fit-wise, yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. obviously Embed is what a top 20 player at this point considering his injuries you probably knock him just a little bit. I don't know. I think this is probably what's going to happen to the Sixers eventually. Charks and I were actually discussing this yesterday. How are we going to keep talking about the Sixers splitting up Ben and Embed? I think we might have mentioned it at some point in the last two months. Maybe, maybe. And we're going to mention it for the next two years. But if they are going to split them up eventually, this is the discussion they're going to have to have internally because I don't. think they're ever going to get fair value. I think Ben definitely his, his, like, value on the market is going to fluctuate wildly depending on how a team sees him. And also, Joel, if you're in trade discussions, everyone's going to bring up the fact that he's just hurt every single year and the fact that

they had to sign El Horford specifically to back him up because they knew he wasn't going to be around so often. And in particular, he ran out of gas in the playoffs. So not the best value, perhaps, but I think in terms of fit, I think it makes a lot of sense. I actually have the Sixers down, though, as a team that could go all in at the deadline to my question to start off the segment. But I do feel like now is not the time

that they're going to try to split up Joe and Ben. It makes a lot of sense to just at the very least try to go with it one last time and see what they could do. What do you think, Charks, about bringing back Robert Covington into the mix here? I mean, I like Covington, but I don't think he really addresses their biggest needs.

They've got plenty of perimeter defense. They need guards who can create shots, run, pick, and roll. You know, maybe more replace the Jimmy Butler kind of role in this team. Obviously, you can't get a Jimmy Butler type player, but more a guy like that than another guy who needs to someone create offense for him. Yeah, I agree. They need more of a creator. Josh Richardson does a little bit of it, but he probably is doing too much of it at this point.

I think the problem is, I just don't know who that guy is on the market. Like, a guy like Kyle Lowry, makes a lot of sense for this team, right? but not only are the Raptors still in the thick of this race, if anything, I think they're above them, above the Sixers in the Eastern Conference standings right now, but the money, again,

he makes about like $34 million, and I don't know how the Sixers cobble together that amount of salary in order to match it. It's just, it's going to be very difficult, and I do wonder if Roco, a guy like everyone seems like on that roster, and they really have just been kind of a little disjointed since.

I do wonder if you get them in there and maybe, like, at the very least, he just, like, makes the vibe a little bit better. I don't know. It is kind of amazing. They handed out maybe half a trillion dollars in contracts over last year, and they have no guards who run pick and roll. I'm not even sure how that's even possible,

but they managed to do that. Because they did it all for centers. All these guys play center. That's the problem. It's 2019. Or, no, it's actually 2020. And they're still playing, like, three centers at once. It's mind-binding.

which is why I was so excited when Ben just took off in that first game against the Celtics. It just felt like a team that just could breathe finally. There was so much space and he was just like doing stuff that he doesn't normally do. And then the past couple of games he hasn't been playing as well. But that first game was really exciting. And I just want to see more of that. Are there any other teams you want to throw out here? I think we cover the main ones.

I want to talk about the Lakers. I have some like Lakers takes I've been thinking about. Okay. All right. We're going to talk about just that, but first, we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show Group Chat is brought to you by Fandul. 2020 is finally here, and the new year brings the best events in sports. NFL Conference Championship Sunday is coming up, and the NBA is getting into full swing.

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and site credit if you don't win. Isaac, you've been eyeing a bet for tonight's Slater Games, which is Wednesday. What do you got for me? Yes, so the Toronto Raptors are facing off against the Oklahoma City Thunder. They're at OKC. OKC is favored by one and a half points. I'm going to take the Thunder. I love there against the spread record here.

It's 27 and 13. That's pretty staggering. And they're at home. They've been on a roll lately. Shagueless Alexander looks amazing, and the Raptors may be missing Marcus Sol. He's listed to be probable to play tonight. We'll see how it goes, but it's risk-free. Isaac, I love that you always bring the data when we do these segments.

I'm all about the stats. That's great. I appreciate that. What was the last time your book you gave you a do-over? Didn't think so. To claim your risk-free first bet, just download the Fandul Sportsbook app from the iOS app store or visit Fandul.com slash Android and be sure to use the promo code Ringer MBA. So they know we sent you. That's promo code Ringer MBA, R-I-N-G-E-R-N-B-A.

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call 1-800-9 with it. All right, we're back. We're talking about the biggest questions at the mid-season point. We talked about some teams who could maybe look at the trade deadline for some help, but let's talk about the teams

who are most optimistic going forward. Charks, the question is, which team will make the biggest second-half push? And Charks, you think the Lakers of that team? I've been thinking about it. And I really think we're underestimating the impact of Davis to the five. That's kind of like the other shoe that hasn't dropped yet.

They've been playing these big slower lineups and they're doing fine with them. And then if you think about it, if Davis moves to the five, the biggest beneficiary is Kyle Kuzma. So, right? In a world, in this, like everyone's saying, okay, Kuzma doesn't fit with the Lakers. Well, yeah, because Davis set the four, LeBron's at the three. all of a sudden Davis, Cusma, LeBron. So those three guys, out the numbers, they've only played 150 minutes this season together,

which is not a lot of minutes, but they're plus 21 in those minutes. It's pretty good. And I think with Cusma, maybe he's overrated a little bit because he's in L.A., but he's actually a pretty good player, and the things that he does make sense with LeBron and Davis, because Cusma can score quickly without holding the ball, right?

He's a great cutter. he's kind of a volume score microwave guy, but he's six foot nine. And he can probably get you 20, 25 points without holding the ball. When you have LeBron Davis is great. Like those three guys together are going to be a tough, tough out. Yeah, I think the question with Kuzma has always been more on the defensive end at that lineup, because if you're spotting him at the three and you're playing him, let's assume it's Davis, LeBron, Kuzma, Danny Green, and let's just say, Avery Bradley.

but I think you'd go KCP there. So then you have KCP and Green to defend at the wing at 6 foot 6. See, that's interesting. Yeah, the fact that KCP has kind of come around this season is pretty significant. Because you do need, my question was going to be,

like, who is that wing stopper? Like, who guards Kau, for instance. And this is, again, the flip side of who guards Anthony Davis for the Lakers is going to be, how do you split your wing defenders on Kauai and Paul George? So you're saying, let's say,

Danny Green guards Paul George and then KCP on Kauai. Yeah, and then, I mean, I don't know. I feel like those matchups aren't great, but those are credible defenders at least with size. Please let KCP guard Kauai. I would love to see that. I mean, and then you can still put Davis on them if you have to. Yeah, my question with that is more just like,

who is LeBron covering, who is Kuzma covering? Because the Clippers, while they have been injured in the regular season, and at full strength, you'd expect him to throw out a couple more guys that people are going to track and all of a sudden maybe LeBron James is the one trying to chase Landry-Shammat around screens. You know, you don't want that. I do love, however, the fact that Davis wouldn't be

one of the primary defenders on those guys because it does feel like he is at his best, almost playing the Janus-type role of playing center field and kind of cleaning up things at the rim. I don't know. I think it's going to be fascinating. But so you don't think Kuzma, though, that the Lakers would be best trading him. I mean, we talked about Kuzma for Bogdan last week.

If you can get a trade like that, sure, but that's just not, I think this king shut that down really fast. That's just not plausible. What if it was just like a veteran? Because that's kind of what I think they'll be up against, whether or not they want Kuzma, a guy who theoretically has a ton of untapped potential, especially on the offensive end, versus a veteran like, let's say Robert Covington. Let's say it's coming. they find a way to make the math work.

I don't have the trade machine in front of me, but I think they have enough in salary probably to figure out somehow. What if it was Covington for Cozma? I mean, Covington, I can see the idea, but I really do feel like Cozma's being underrated right now in terms of if he can give you a third score, right? Because if you have Covington, Green, KCP,

who's your third score after LeBron and Davis? It's true, yeah. I mean, on the other hand, you would think, like a catch-and-shoot guy like Covington would be great off of LeBron, but you're right like where is that creation coming from they would need

if they had Darren Collison as kind of their their backup point guard who could like shoulder that load in like the couple of minutes that LeBron wouldn't play in the playoffs I would feel way more comfortable doing something like that

don't forget Alex Caruso it's true the Caruso it always comes back to Caruso it does I'm actually a little surprised charts though Kuzma doesn't feel like your type of guy I just talk myself into it I think I watched that game

where he had 35 and so Oklahoma City. And it's like, yeah, this guy can get buckets. He's freaking huge. He moves decently well. And in a lot of role, I've always thought Kuzma kind of could be a Tobias Harris type. And like a guy like that has limitation, sure. But if he's your third score off LeBron and Davis, if you can get Tobias Harris level production,

that's pretty valuable. Yeah. Yeah, the Oklahoma City game is interesting. I think I would just counter with the fact that, you know, LeBron and Davis did not play there. And so Kuzma's entire career has been his ability. to score without having to share the ball with other high caliber kind of scores. I would go to the Eastern Conference if I'm looking at the team looking to make the biggest

second half push. I mentioned them earlier, kind of ancillary to the 76ers discussion we were having, but it's the Raptors. They're finally getting a little bit more healthy. Siakum wasn't in there for a long stretch of time, and yet they find themselves above the Pacers, above the Sixers in the fourth spot in the east. and I think at full strength, I think this team is still pretty good.

I don't know when Gasol will come back, but at the same time, I think if he isn't healthy, they could look to flip his contract and maybe make a push for this season. Everyone expects them considering how much of a runway they have toward the future and that their contracts are aligned

to perhaps make a push for Janus in the summer of 2021, that they're more likely to go the other way and be a little bit more of a seller. But I don't know. It just seems like, are they that far behind the bucks? Are they that far behind the Sixers where, at the very least, you don't try to make a go of it? I don't know.

I think a guy like, for instance, Danilo Gallinari, let's say he is the guy that you get in there, play him a little bit more of the Gasol minutes, gets back some of that creation from your center position. And all of a sudden, this team looks pretty dangerous. Yeah, I mean, 2-6 in the East is really, really tight. So that's Boston, Miami, Toronto, Indiana, Philly. There's three and a half games separating them right now, all five teams.

And yeah, Toronto, they haven't been healthy all season. Like, they've been winning games with Patrick McCaw, Terrence Davis, Chris Boucher. Like, it's been pretty impressive how Nurse has manipulated his lineups to stay afloat. But he's going to get his top seven back at some point. And with how Siakum played at the start of the season, you've got two big time scores in Siakum and Lowry. you've got a ton of defense, you've got Van Vlead, you've got size up front.

They're a pretty balanced team. I think Delos go for you. There's no reason they might be kind of right where they are, like Oklahoma City. You don't have to make a move either way because you can win now Amby's step up in the future. Right. Yeah, I think they just have a lot going for them.

They have the fourth lowest strength of schedule over the next, however many games they have left on their schedule. So I think they could burn through some teams and climb up into that two, three, spot. And while I would still favor the bucks, just considering how the bucks have just lawnmowered through the entire schedule in front of them, I don't know. I think if you have a shot, it reminds me of the East when LeBron used to dominate. If you have a shot, why not just try to make a push for it? If you're not sacrificing any long-term flexibility, it just makes a lot of sense to me. But you mentioned

the thunder there, Charks, and that brings us to perhaps my favorite question going forward. And one, I know you're just chomping at the bit to talk about. This is one, maybe a little recency bias behind this one, but will Shea Gildress Alexander be the best player of the 2018 draft? Oh, we should just call us whole pod of recency bias. Just lean all the way into it. I think that should, yeah, that's every pod that we do. True.

So, so Shea earlier this week became the youngest ever to record a 20 rebound triple double against the Minnesota Timberwolves. he has become, I would say probably the player with the highest approval rating, especially amongst the blog scene. He's just like, he just does everything well. I think people expected him to perhaps like maybe bump up against Chris Paul having to share the load and play off of him a little bit. He hasn't.

If anything, he's just looked even more versatile playing in these three guard lineups with Paul and Schroeder. I don't know, man. I think this question probably goes, with a no considering how good some of the players at the top of the 2018 draft were and just for a recap, that's guys like Luca Donchis, Sharon Jackson Jr.,

Trey Young, DeAndre Aiton was in that same draft, but he's definitely in the conversation, no? He's fantastic. I mean, me and Isaac have been talking about SGA for like a year and a half now. Yeah, catch up, guys. Come on. He's just an amazing player. Yeah, you were early on him. You

liked him when he was kind of stacked behind a couple more like five-star prospects at Kentucky, no? It was kind of impressive, yeah. SGA started this season at Kentucky coming off the bench. And then it just became gradually more and more obvious that he was their best player. And it's kind of in the same process in the NBA where he's so good he plays right away. And it's like, well, wait a minute.

He's six foot six. He defends three positions. He gets to rim at will. He's really, really smart player. He can finish. He can shoot. He's like, like you were talking about like those guys at top of that draft. the one thing he has on Jaron, Luca, Trey, all those guys, he's the most well-rounded.

There's no holes in his game. He's like 2021. He's a complete basketball player. And that's what you're seeing is you put him in any role he is. He succeeds because he can change his game what's even talking about. He can play on the ball or off the ball. He can guard one through three. He can run the offense himself.

He can create his own shot. He can distribute too. He's just a really, really great basketball player. And I've been saying, like, well, I think what I'm going to be a lot of him. that's all said and done, he's going to be Mr. Thunder. Right? There was that whole thing last week about Russ and Kent Perkins and all that. To me, he's going to become like the new, he already is, but he will be like the new

face set franchise. Wow. So you're already burying the Russell Westbrook generation. He is now the, the, it's buried. Yeah. No, I agree with you. There's just something about him. And I saw as soon as I saw him live for the first time, I think in the preseason game, there's

just like a natural calm. that he plays with. Yeah. There's just something like just super smooth about him. And he just like, he doesn't really make a lot of mistakes. He's just like he plays a very mature style. And like he just finds a way,

whatever lineup that he's in just finds a way to fill in like the crevice and just like fill that void for you. And I think that's particularly advantageous for a Thunder team because they find themselves in this weird situation, right? Where Chris Paul is doing well. And at the very least, you're going to be asking for more for Chris Paul in a trade. It's not going to be just a salary dump, you'd assume, at this point.

And if you wanted to continue on maybe one more season after this one, maybe even two seasons play out the entire Chris Paul contract, well, Shea doesn't really, there's no issue with that. He will not have a negative effect, like his development, which is probably the priority of the franchise at this point, based on playing with Paul. And then once Paul is gone, all of a sudden you have this just bounty of draft picks, a bunch of young players.

and you really aren't restricted to the types of players that you need to get around him because you can get anyone. You could just draft best talent available. And if you're looking back at what made the Thunder so great to begin with, is that they did key on those guys. A guy like Russell Westbrook, I think a lot of people had questions about what role he would fit coming out of UCLA. And James Harden, the prime example of this, a guy who, I don't think a lot of people knew

what to do with him. He was just his left-handed shooting guard who was a little thick, but all of a sudden they drafted him and they made it work. And I don't know. It just seems like Shea is one of the better building blocks in perhaps the entire league to really start your franchise with. Yeah. And if you look at Oklahoma City, they've been a very aggressive front office for a while now.

And it, to me, they've got, I think it's like 10 first round draft picks coming up or something. They're the team. The next time a legit superstar is. on the market, that's the team that's going to go all in for them. Because they can give a team that KG Nets trade, right? Because all those picks are unprotected. So you can give someone that Nets trade and still have a good team now. So my guess would be, and like who can beat that offer, right?

If you're rebuilding, we can offer you like five unprotected first round picks, not from Marcel, but from a different team that's probably going to be bad in a few years. I feel like they've got by far the biggest, the war chest. So whenever a star is available next year or two, that's a team as the thunder. I think we're all talking about the thunder is, oh, maybe they can make a small move now for Robert Covington or whatever. No, this is a team, maybe it's next year or in two years. But my guess is they're going to push everything in for another superstar.

Then you have Shea and that other player and now you've got a possible championship team. Yeah, I mean, they did it with Paul George, right? No one expected them to really throw their name in there and try that out. And it worked for a time. and you wonder if Russell Westbrook was a little bit younger, was a little bit closer to Shea's age, if Paul Jorz looks around and doesn't say, hey, this is actually the best place for me,

you wonder, I don't think Paul left because of Oklahoma City. It seemed more like that team had probably tapped out in his potential. Like he was an MVP candidate, and they still couldn't get out of the first round. And so, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I also look at some of the teams that could have drafted Shea, and I wonder, like, what the hell were they thinking?

Now, it makes sense for a team like the Mavs. They went and got Luca, right? And the Hawks, they probably don't feel bad about having Trey Young instead of Shea, even though I would lean Shea if we're looking long term. But like the Knicks drafted Kevin Knox right before Shea. The Hornets drafted Miles Bridges right before Shea. Yeah, I think they took him and they traded because I knew the Clippers had locked in on Shea. They traded back or something.

That's right. That's bad. But looking at that entire draft class, Charks, how would you rank perhaps your five players going forward? Like, what is your top five from that draft? I'd probably go, I mean, looking at that draft looks like a generational draft now. Kind of the way it's going to shape the whole league. I would say Luca won, Jaron, two, Shea three, Trey, four.

Probably. I think then they have a big drop up after that. Then you can kind of go in a million different directions. But those four guys that I think separated themselves. And the story with Shea was that it's pretty unusual what happened. So I did a story on him in Summer League last year when he was with the Clippers. And we kind of talked about it. And he told me that he shut himself down.

So the Clippers talked to him right after the lottery and said, you're going to be our guy. I was just kind of funny now looking back on it. They're like, you're our guy. You're the face of the franchise going forward. And he didn't work out with anybody for like the entire time. He didn't talk to the media. He didn't do any stories, any workouts.

Because him and the Clippers were locked in the whole time as like a prompt. Thomas. And it's one of those things because he wasn't kind of getting a lot of hype during the season, he just kind of fell through the cracks, right? Like the Cavs worked out, Colin Sexton that year. And it really impressed Gilbert in that workout and they just went with it. But S.J. wasn't even on their radar really because he's not working out with anybody. He's not in the pre-draft circuit. Wasn't Shea in Lee Jenkins's, like, original letter announcing his, like, employment with the Clippers? Didn't he like... Lesse. Didn't he do the LeBron thing of like forgetting some of their like Jerome Robinson,

but he's like, yeah, Shay, can't wait to be in his franchise and get behind Shea Gilders-Alexander. Yeah, I mean, he learned about how the NBA business really works, right? Yeah, it was written. Lee Jenkins wrote it and now it's come to fruition just for a completely different franchise that he doesn't work for. All right, Charks, we're going to say goodbye to our friend Jonathan Charks, but we're going to bring in Rob Mahoney and talk a little bit about the Milwaukee Bucks the best team in the NBA. All right, we're back. We said goodbye to Charks, but one of his Texan brethren making what I believe is his first

appearance on the Ringer NBA show, it is staff writer Rob Mahoney. What's up, buddy? I mean, it's a Ringer rule. You can only swap out one Texan for another. So we got to keep it to code. This is true. Rob is obviously not only one of my favorite writers, but he has a lot of quivers in his, what do you put your quivers in?

Your errors in your quiver? Is that what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I got that backwards, so that's great. But no, I was going to say he's not only just a thoughtful writer, but I was thinking about this today. I think you're one of the few people who, when they had their blog career, you probably aren't as embarrassed about the blog names that you had as other people, because I used to write for some, and it was just like the most outrageous stuff. Like, I don't know, mine was the Yukon blog, but I remember at one point I wanted to name it the five-year plan. because Jim Calhoun won a title every five years,

and this was also like a subtle, like, communist joke. All blog names are better as like subtle nods to some kind of governmental structure. Right. But yours were reasonable. It was what? The two-man game? Yeah, the two-man game, which doesn't quite make sense as a blog about the Dallas Mavericks, but you work with what you got, I guess.

You know, your scope was much broader, you know? We'll go with that. There was another one. Was it upside and motor? Yeah, upside and motor was my debut blog. I think the first thing I ever wrote was a horrid misunderstanding of how bird rights work in reference to the Portland Trailblazers, not being able to keep together their powerhouse core of like Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldridge, Greg Oden, etc. So the content of all those may not have aged particularly gracefully, but at least the names have hung around. That's all that matters.

Nobody actually reads the content. They just remember the name of the album, you know. All right. So Rob is going to write for Tomorrow on the Ringer about the Milwaukee Bucks, specifically about how the bucks perhaps are historically good. And yet it does feel like as we kind of size up the race here, I don't know if we're really giving them as much due as like we probably should in terms of the championship race.

And last segment with Charks was probably a prime example of this where we're talking about how the clippers are going to match up with the Lakers and vice versa and how that could determine the NBA title this season. But quietly, surprisingly quietly, the Bucs are flirting with the 70-win season. Rob, maybe take us through just a little bit of what you're seeing in the Bucs that perhaps were missing in what has been just a pretty significant first half of the season for them.

Well, I think there's kind of two questions wrapped up in this, right? Where there's question one, are the Bucks actually the best team in the league? I think there are a lot of statistical indicators that would say so. but public perception hasn't quite gone in that way yet. And so then question two is, if they are the best team in the league, why aren't they treated as such? Why don't we treat them in the way that we treat some of these other great teams? Even teams outside of the Lakers and Clippers, these kind of like huge markets that have

a certain kind of appeal. I think Milwaukee is just in a different place in terms of NBA fandom. But even when you compare them to other kind of fun, competitive, smaller market teams over the years, I would argue the bucks aren't even quite getting as much attention as those teams. And so there's kind of a perception issue and there's a quality issue that you kind of need to suss through both. So I don't know which way is more interesting for you to go through first. Well, yeah, let's talk about whether or not they are really good, which statistically they have a pretty good argument.

They're currently 36 and 6, which is best in the league. 538 projects them out for 64 wins, which isn't 70, but is still pretty damn good. their third on offense, first on defense, first in net rating. And we had them in our tiers earlier this week on the website. We had them pretty definitively as a favorite. I don't know. Is there really anything to say negatively about how they've been playing thus far? Just based on the body of work, perhaps not looking too far ahead at the playoffs,

which I think is a pretty significant part of that second discussion you mentioned, that we could, is there anything about what they've done this far that we can really be dubious about them? That's where it gets tricky because I think it's kind of unimpeachable. I mean, you mentioned just the record alone. If you look at their point differential, which, you know, historically speaking is one of the greatest indicators for playoff success. You know, how, not only how are you fair against really good teams, but are you able to blow out the teams you should blow out? Are you able to, you know, to roll into, you know, to Madison Square Garden and blow out the Knicks and have Yannis, you know, have a quick work on an early night. because it doesn't have to play the fourth quarter. Those things matter, historically speaking, in terms of how good can your team ultimately be and kind of where the signal and the noise differ

in terms of regular season. So I think you could look at that team and say, oh, maybe they don't have the secondary star power. Maybe you're a little skeptical because you're huge on Malcolm Brogden and what he meant for that team. He's obviously not there anymore. You could look down the roster and say, you don't like this role player or that role player.

Maybe you're a little confused as to why Brooke Lergin. Lopez isn't hitting threes anymore, but they're all these kind of like micro indicators versus everything in the big picture sense says this is the best team in the league. I don't know why we would be resistant to that idea. Yeah, and they've definitely passed some of the earlier tests that I think a lot of people wanted to throw in front of them. They dealt with injuries pretty early on. Chris Milton missed a couple of games. Eric Bledsoe missed a few, yet they did not slow down. As you mentioned Malcolm Brogden, I think a lot of people expected them to take a step back. To be honest, I think I did as well, just because it seemed like they were prioritizing the long term,

perhaps Brogden, because of the injury issues he had in the past, maybe it was better to get away from him now and then perhaps divert the money that they had available to other sorts of players. That really hasn't been as much of an issue. Guys like Dante DiVincenzo all of a sudden are playing a little bit better. You add a Kyle Corver here. You add a Robin Lopez, another Lopez there, and all of a sudden they're just as good as they were last year.

I think it kind of brings us to our. second question with them. And I think this is the one that involves a lot more kind of studying. I have a couple theories on why they aren't getting their due. I actually have six listed here, but I could probably go into more. Let's start from the top, though. And I think this is the most interesting one to talk about. The bucks are boring. I think because they just don't get into the drama and perhaps because they're a small market team and they don't have a lot of people trying to stir up drama with their impending free agent Janice and Kupo

who can hit free agency in 2021 but this summer is when you expect him to get that giant extension offer that the bucks can throw at him that really hasn't been a discussion point. Perhaps they've been too good. Perhaps Janice just found a way to shut down the media. But like

there really isn't much to talk about but their excellence and quite frankly excellence is kind of boring no? No, I think it definitely can be. I think the counter point is that I haven't found this season overall to be very dramatic. You know, if you look at, you know, again, not to just keep comparing them to the Lakers, because I think there's a lot of reasons why that's an apples to oranges thing. But other than like Kyle Kuzma's trainer,

have the Lakers really had that much going on in terms of like a, like a, from a soap opera standpoint, you know, obviously both teams are really great. I think on the court, there's a lot to be excited about either product. But around the league, you look and it's like, okay, you know, Al Horford and Brett Brown saying, you know, kind of implying the best. Ben Simmons should shoot more, or this player or that player, maybe getting into it a little bit. But it's been kind of a drama-free season overall, I feel like. Yeah, and LeBron made quick work of that trainer. He's probably sleeping with the fishes right now because I haven't heard a word from him ever since then.

Kyle Kuzma, in fact, sent out one of, in a long lineage of LeBron teammates, sent out a vague tweet in which we all kind of read into. And that didn't really become a thing. You're right. It just doesn't seem like there's much. to really discuss on the off the court part of the game this year. Part of it is probably because there's only been, what, one trade since Russell Westbrook were traded in July.

And as everyone's been talking about recently, it just doesn't feel like the league is set up to make a lot of trades ahead of this deadline. And so the bucks kind of fit, they're kind of symbolic of that, right? They're kind of just going about their business, they're being really good, but there really isn't much to talk about

unless you really want to get into the nuances of like, I don't know, Janice being able to shoot off the catch versus off the dribble. Yeah, and I think the kind of moves that they could potentially make, like, if you look last year trading for Nicola Meritich at the trade deadline, it came out of nowhere. It was completely unexpected. It was pick-based, more so than player-based. It was based on, you know, trying to get a little bit more depth, trying to address a need more so than, oh, we have this underused player on our team or this disgruntled asset, and we need to move them on. And so I think the bucks are in a position to do that again. We talked about Brogden. They get back picks in that deal.

They have some maneuverability if they want to try to add a piece, which I think they're probably in a good position to do, depending on how the market shakes out. And so you can't talk about that. You're not working the trade machine in quite the same way. And there may be it's a bigger conversation here as to whether it's a problem that the NBA only feels really alive when we're talking about players moving from one place to another. But what Milwaukee is built and the kind of stability of the core that they have, I think is good enough to warrant deeper consideration and more conversation than it has. And I mean, maybe they are boring in the sense that, again, Janus is like trying to quiet down as much of that free agency talk as he can. I think he's

doing a pretty good job so far. But it does leave them in a weird place in terms of the discourse. Yeah. They play a very specific style of basketball. And while it's led to results, clearly, it does make it makes you wonder what they really need to make this team significantly better you know all of the you just need shooters around Janus and they've managed to just create a deep bench of them even getting Brooke Lopez when a lot of people

in the league it seemed like it turned the opposite way and expected Brooke to perhaps just kind of fade into obscurity but that brings me to my next point and this specifically addresses our guy Chris Middleton how dare you preemptively. Yeah, I'm sorry.

I mean, this also is kind of ancillary to our discussion about boring because I do think that they have among the favorites the worst number two and I do wonder if we're looking ahead a bit if we're trying to project how they'll do against some of the best teams in the league

in the playoffs because that's really the only question they have going forward. It doesn't ultimately become how confident we are in Chris Middleton, no? No, I mean, the Chris Middleton of it all is, I mean, it's certainly not a new problem to arise in terms of the conversation around the team. I think a lot of people have worried about this, especially when you're looking at trying to keep you honest and trying to, you know, you have a lot of salary that's now locked into place. Is this the kind of second best player who's good enough to keep him around and make him wanting, want to come back and contend with this kind of group?

I think it's kind of a weird query to pose a couple months or, you know, less than a year after like Kyle Lowry is this. best player on a title team, right? Or Marcusal, or however you want to parse, you know, the Toronto Raptors. I think we've reached a point. And certainly when you look across the landscape, there aren't a lot of kind of looming giants. There's no, you know, Kevin Durant and Steph and the Warriors that's on the horizon here. There's a lot of teams that are kind of trying to make it and they're trying to figure themselves out and make sure that they have, you know, all of their T's crossed and their eyes dotted. And I think the Bucks are in that group in terms of, and maybe better position than most, in the sense that they have the continuity. They kind of know

who they are, they have that security of identity. And maybe that's where, you know, I was certainly in agreement with you in terms of thinking that without Brogden, they would have to, you know, figure some things out. They'd have to do some things differently. Maybe they would take a step back. But I think maybe we underestimated the ability of that team and that group and what they had built to kind of just plug guys in and play and play within the flow and do what they can. And it can be tricky when, you know, as you alluded to when you have kind of Yana surrounded by shooters, or if you want to look at Houston, James Hardin surrounded by shooters, how do you really make that team better from a personnel standpoint. I mean, I guess you could get better shooters. You could

get, you know, guys who are slightly more dynamic playmakers or a better defender here or there, but it's a more complicated picture in terms of how to improve teams like that. And I think what Middleton gives you is a little bit of everything in a way that is such a pressure release. And he's not a particularly sexy player by any means. I mean, the most daring he gets is like a reverse layup. I think he would cop to that himself. I mean, for getting for clumped over here, Rob. pull out the fainting couch, everybody. Be safe out there.

But, I mean, again, this is where these two conversations kind of overlap, where there's the question of, is Chris Middleton fun to watch for, you know, the Instagram NBA fan? And is Chris Middleton good enough to help the Bucks win in the playoffs when historically has shown up in some of the biggest series they've played? I mean, he's had, you know, in his most recent run, had a tough time to get into the Raptors at points. But I think overall, when you look at his history,

is a guy who shows up for those kinds of. of series. You're just taking shots at the millennial fans. I see you. No, I think it's a great point and I also think it bleeds down from Middleton into Eric Bledsoe. I think Bledsoe is also the type of guy where

he fits what they need and in the regular season it seems like he goes about his business and just it isn't a problem. But this brings me to my next question and this has to do with Bledsoe as well. My third theory in this long manifesto that I've created,

perhaps that we have PTSD from last year's playoffs. So not only did our guy Eric Bledsoe just completely not show up and no longer has the Brogden insurance in order to kind of perhaps paper over some of his mistakes. We also have last year's

Eastern Conference finals in which the Raptors, despite going down two games to start with, completely blew the bucks out of the playoffs over the next four games. Kwai Leonard famously switches on to Janus, and all of a sudden, that wall builds up and Yonis can't figure it out. And I think considering that they didn't change much about who they are or what they do,

I think it's fair to ask if they're not going to run into a similar issue again in this year's postseason. No, it's a totally fair question. And really, enough can be said about how absolutely horrible Eric Bledsoe was in that series. And really, I think has been, you know, generally speaking, for the Bucson. in the playoffs. Like he's, he's been a disaster. And like that, some of that has to change. He doesn't have to be great, but they need him to be passable in a way that he really hasn't been yet. And that's one area where playing in Milwaukee and all these problems we're talking about in terms of why the bucks don't get more love or more attention, I think he gets a lot

of cover in that conversation. Because if Eric Budso were LeBron's teammate, I'm not sure he would be allowed in many public spaces in the city that he lived in. But I am glad you bring up that series because we do this thing when, you know, after a series is a decided after a playoff run, we treat everything with the degree of finality and certainty and painted with like a single impression in a way that isn't exactly representative of what happened. And I think in that series, the bucks are up to two oh in that series. Game three goes to double overtime in order for the Raptors to win. If Milwaukee wins that game, that series is effectively over. That's one shot. That's, you know, one free throw. And again, you know,

we can get into Janus's free throw struggles a little bit in this podcast as well. There's certainly some meat to pull up there in terms of things he could do better. Janus also fouls out of that game. And so you have a game really with the series on the ropes that the Raptors have to win and do. And one shot, one trifle could change that and effectively change history. Then you're talking about the bucks going to the finals and who knows what happens from there. But even when you look at the rest of that series, you know, game four, Raptors win, no contest. There's not a lot to talk about there.

Basically, all the other games that the Bucks lost in that series are by six points or so. You're talking about some single-digit games. You're talking about a couple shots. you're talking about, you know, a couple of possessions where Janus was out of control or where the Bucks couldn't quite get their stuff together in time to run a more cogent offense because the Raptors had them a little bit confounded. And so I think there's this narrative that, you know, you put Kauai on Janus and everything changes in that series.

And to a degree it does. But then you look overall and Janus shot basically the same percentage from the field that Kauai did. Kauai produces in different ways and certainly came up with the bigger shots in that series. But I'm just not convinced that the Bucson. or that Janus really struggled in that series quite as much as our memories would lead us to believe. Yeah, it's tough because on the one hand,

you have five months just to pour over this final result, right? I think it's just only human to look back at our most recent experience with this team and just expect that to be the only truth about them going forward. I think what also happened with them is the fact that they are more of a veteran team, I think it probably leads us to believe they are more of a fixed commodity than they perhaps they actually are. I look at the Celtics the year before that and all of a sudden they make do without Kyrie Irving. You have Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown and all these young guys and you assume based purely on their age and their experience level that they have more of a ceiling.

Well, actually it flipped the other way and it turned out that they just weren't able to tap into that, at least for another season. I think the Bucks, because they've been able to assemble a pretty veteran team around Janus, I wonder if we think that was the absolute maximum of what Strasch Lopez can give them. Chris Middleton, as we mentioned, we just don't expect much for him. So what more could we get from him? Eric Bledso has been rough in the playoffs in the past. And so you expect that to continue. And so I do wonder how much we've kind of just, I don't know, perhaps just manufactured this vision of the

bucks that doesn't perhaps exist. I mean, I think some of those concerns are pretty fair. You know, with Brooke, with Bloodsoe, with Middleton, with some of the pieces that are that are kind of building this team, you could definitely say, okay, this was the best that they had played in the regular season and they weren't able to hold that up in the playoffs. Therefore, I don't trust the bucks in this setting. I think what that misses is that Yannis is 25 years old. And with that, you know, I think we've seen him not only come in this season better, but

you're seeing kind of the mechanics work in terms of the. the cerebral parts of the game, in terms of the way he reads certain situations, in terms of his footwork and the way he maneuvers around certain problems. I think fundamentally when you talk about Yannis in the playoffs and you're thinking about guys like Kauai, the guys that could potentially guard him, there are really only maybe two players in the league who could do it pretty effectively. And Kauai is one of them and is no longer in his conference. I think Joelle and Bede is actually the other one. And we saw some success in the Christmas Day game where the Sixers did that, you know, really kind of, and, you know, the Sixers, I think, have two other guys in Horford and Ben Simmons who can kind of credibly fill minutes against Janus, who may, you know, maybe you wouldn't want as a first option for a variety of reasons. But Embed is kind of the other guy. And so when you're talking about a player who really, there are only two antidotes for in the entire league, and every other team is trying to do what the Raptors did. They're trying to do what worked against Yanis in the playoffs. They're trying to lay back off him. They're trying to guard him with Biggs. They're trying to show him a wall at the rim, and he just dunks on everybody. Yeah. So at some point, you have to reckon with the idea.

that the Janus we saw in that series isn't necessarily the Janus we're going to see going forward. And that all the players, you know, whether it's Bledso or Middleton or Brooke Lopez not hitting enough shots, or if you want to look on the other side, like, I think it comes down to how much are you really willing to stake on a really great regular season team and a team that is great by every other indicator losing a couple games by six points? And how much you're really willing to stake on like a couple of Fred Van Valle, three-pointers in that series, really dictating how we feel about one of the best players in the league and the team he plays for.

Yeah, Rob, I have some bad news about Joel and Bede. I actually traded him to the Clippers in the previous segment. So they're not going to face him until they get to the finals. Well, I appreciate you not leading with that. I mean, you're really blindsiding me here. No, but I think it's a good point. I look at the East, though, and I do wonder if the bucks are better off based on the status of their conference

and what they'll have to get through in the playoffs, or they're worse off. So you look at the first round series, it could be against the magic, against a team like the Nets with Kyrie, you expect them to win that pretty handedly. But then all of a sudden, I don't know, maybe they get the heat in the second round. Maybe it's the Raptors again, even though they don't have Kauai still a formidable team. The Pacers were expecting to take a pretty significant leap in the second half once they get back Victorola Depot.

And then, yeah, and then in the Eastern Conference finals, you have another team. So on the one hand, I don't think there's a team that could perhaps give them as much of a trouble as the Raptors did last. year, but I do think the East being as top heavy as it is now, I do wonder if all of a sudden they get to more seven-game series, maybe that has a trickle-down effect and to like how successful they are getting out of the East yet again. I think it definitely could play a part, especially if you're comparing them to, you know, someone in the West, whether it's the Clippers or the Lakers, wherever you like to come out of the conference and saying, you know, who's going to have the tougher road to the finals? And what could that ultimately mean for a final series in terms of the attrition of

that. I just don't see any of these teams, based on the evidence we have right now and these teams as currently constructed, I don't see any of them matching up with the Bucks, really. I mean, the Sixers can't win a game on the road, which strikes me as kind of a problem in a series where you're not going to have home court advantage. They have all these, you know, Joe L&B's health is obviously always a question. There's a lot of questions of fit. And I think they did some things very effectively in the one game that they played against the buck so far. But again, it's not about the one game. It's about who has the capacity to respond, which team has a little bit more flexibility in terms of, you know, how can they, they tweak their approach to

get through a series. And that's one area where Mike Boodenholzer is historically not done particularly well. But given this roster, given where Janus is in his career, I think there's some brute forcing that can be done here. And, you know, just as a, as the most unstoppable player in the league going to the rim and what he can do for your team, even if you put Embed and Horford and Simmons in front of him, if you space him the right way, I think that's one area where we've seen Milwaukee do a little bit better already is, you know, clearing out one side more effectively, allowing Janus to really drive at an angle to get by some guys where you're not able to cheat off of Eric Bloodsoe quite so much in a way that's going to impact Janice's drive. I think there's a lot of these kind of

little elements of the bucks, little quirks that they're doing in terms of their offense to relieve some of that pressure on Janus. But ultimately, those guys are going to have to make shots. They're going to have to make plays. Eric Bloodso is going to have to do better than nothing in a seven-game series against some of these teams. I just don't see them measuring a up. And a lot of that comes down to something we haven't talked about much yet, which is that Milwaukee's one of the best defensive teams in the league, bar none. And no matter what you may think about where they are offensively or how awkward it may look at times, I think they're going to make their opponents look just as awkward or just as forced or just as rushed, even more so than

they are. Right. Everything has been going well, but I do want to circle back to what you were talking about with Janus. Yes, everything that they've done has managed to feature the MVP, perhaps even better than they did the first time around. But my next theory in this long list is that we are not 100% sold on Janus, and which sounds crazy, considering that, yes, he is the MVP, and he is likely to win yet another one.

His numbers are better than last year, even though he's playing fewer minutes. Everything is going well except for the shooting. So yes, Janus is now shooting three-pointers. He is shooting 33% from three-point line, and which is not great, but it's enough considering everything else he does, and just having to think about Janus with a three-pointer, probably just has a trickle-down effect that impacts, like,

just so many more things on the buck's offense. But the one thing I've been worrying about is that free-throw percentage. And as we've gone on this season, it's gotten particularly bad. He's currently at 62%. And so I do wonder if all of a sudden we're in a playoff series and the three-pointer isn't going down, or at least teams are going to force him to make those shots, and they're going to wall up yet again,

wait for those drives from Janus. And worst case, they're going to try to send him to the line. And then all of a sudden, we're in perhaps Shaq 2.0 zone, where Janus isn't able to make those free throws. And as you mentioned with the Raptor series, it was a couple of shots that made the difference. Well, perhaps they're not Fred Van Vleet three-pointers. They're actually Janus free throws.

Yeah, I mean, the free throw stuff with Yon's, Janus is real and extremely weird. Just in terms of a player who is, you know, looking over the course of his career has been, you know, pretty consistently within a range in the mid to high 70s. And then all of a sudden, in kind of LeBron-like fashion, has just cratered in a season, free-throw shooting in a way that no one could have anticipated, that is kind of inexplicable. And that I agree in a playoff setting is definitely something you have to think about, especially, you know, if you look, not to psychoanalyze Jan is too much,

but as a guy who is just kind of an all-out, like one of his prime virtues as a player is his effort, is his drive, is the fact that he does play extremely hard. And he does seem to really want this for Milwaukee and the Bucks, to play in a way that can be irrepressible. And so I think when you are that kind of player who's that dedicated to like every possession

and going all out all the time, the idea that you all of a sudden have to slow down, go to the free throw line, clear your head completely, and hit two free throws, you could see, you can imagine a scenario in a playoff setting where he goes over two in a crucial situation and it really comes back to haunt him. And, you know, I'm sure that's, you know, the lead and a feature that's written on Janus for the next season or whatever about how he, you know, dedicated his life to making better, you know, making his free throws more consistently.

But in the moment, that is something the bugs have to worry about. And I'm not sure what the solution to that is because Janus is going to take a lot of contact between here and potentially June. And there's no way, there's really no way to go through that, but to at least, you know, hit a passable percentage of those shots. Right. You'd expect them to keep working on it. But, I mean, if they're not going to go for 70 wins, if they're not going to make a conscious decision to really push for that before the playoffs, you expect Yonis perhaps to play even fewer minutes, even fewer games, which means fewer opportunities perhaps, like just work through this. If it is a mental issue, we don't know. Perhaps it's just, if anything, the last,

lack of reps might actually be worse for him. And just to kind of underline our point here and not just to kind of ding Janus. He is the 11th player to take at least 18 field goals, but shoot under 62% from the free throw line ever. That's in the basketball reference database. And he's the only one since Shaq and Antoine Walker, believe it or not, in 2002-03 to do so. So it is worrisome, but he does so much else that's great that. perhaps it's just a blip and it's a sample size issue and all of a sudden the playoffs will be better. But I want to get to my last point here, which is actually just a dual point,

which it doesn't actually have anything to do with Janus or the Bucks or Boodenholz or anything else that we've seen already. In fact, the biggest thing against the Bucks is we've never seen them win the East or a title thus far. And as we've seen, until it happens, I think a lot of people aren't willing to believe it. you're starting to hear some kind of comparisons between the bucks and the warriors. And this is something that I was actually kind of was a pet project of mine last year too.

It does feel like when the next wave happens, we don't really realize it until the title comes and there's confirmation that it is a thing. The Warriors obviously blew through the competition in 2014-15 when we were looking for that next team. but there were still, if I'm remembering correctly, just shreds of doubt about whether or not it would work. They were a jump shooting team and everything we heard about jump shooting teams

at least from like the shacks and kind of some of the more dunderheaded analysis is just like that wasn't going to work in the playoffs. And then all of a sudden it did and it worked like gangbusters. And now here we are in this current environment. I do wonder if there's going to continue to be these shreds of doubts. There's going to be doubts about Janus about the bucks and the playoffs. until we actually see it. And if anything, this conversation just is moot

because we just need them to prove it for certain people to give them the respect that they need. Well, thanks for putting in the perspective that everything we do here is ultimately meaningless and the universe is a cold, dark place. That's what I'm here for. That's editing, my friend. That's true.

I mean, I do think that, I mean, more broadly, human beings are kind of historically, very slow, embarrassingly slow in some cases, on the uptake. I mean, our planet is on fire, and we're still talking about what their global warming is real. We're also talking about the Bucks amid that as well. It's true. I mean, and so when you bring that back to the Bucks or the Warriors or anything new that's happening,

I think the Warriors represented something different in terms of a shift and a style of play, a style of philosophy that people hadn't quite come around on yet, which is its own thing. With the Bucks, I think you're talking about the credibility of a team collectively and of a superstar. And it's interesting that we don't have these conversations around, you know, the Clippers or the Lakers. Again, the other two, you know, presumable favorites, which is why I keep bringing them up this season because they have Kauai and because they have LeBron, because those two stars have a championship pedigree, even though those teams don't. You know, the idea that, you know, we wouldn't have this incredible faith in Anthony Davis, it's that he's LeBron's teammate and therefore they're kind of lumped together. And so the Lakers are therefore more credible than the Bucks in one particular line of argument. I just don't really understand that, again, in a league where you look around and there are no established powers here.

Everyone went through some kind of upheaval or ended their last season in a way that they wouldn't have liked to. And so you're all kind of working from the same place. I think it would be a different conversation if there were a better established powerhouse, not even dynastic, but a credible contender who's been there for a couple years in this mix. But all these teams seem to be kind of in the same place to me. And if you're starting from that kind of even ground, then I'm going with the team that is blowing the doors off of everybody to the point that Yannis only has to play about 20 minutes against some of these teams. Yeah, I think the thing working against them as well is that even though the Lakers and the clippers

haven't done it yet with this current rosters that they have, they have players who have. Like they have two of the most bankable stars in Kauai and LeBron James. And so if we're searching for some sort of answers, you're naturally going to gravitate toward the guy who's been the best player in the league for about a decade now and the guy who is assumedly or ostensibly the one who's kind of taking his place, at least in the postseason.

So maybe that has to work against them. But I don't know, because I think the big question, just to wrap it up here, as we sit now in, what is it, January 15th, and we're talking about the Bucks perhaps being a 70 win team or just how historically great they are, if you were to pick a title winner today, would it be the Bucks?

I would pick the bucks. I think they are, I think coming out of the East, if you compare them to the field, they're the prohibitive favorite. I mean, all those other teams are, again, the top tier of the East, I think, is much better than we expected, at least in terms of, you know, the heat working in that conversation, the Pacers, as you mentioned with Oladipo could get into that group, the Celtics being ultimately more stout than they looked on paper, you know, after losing out Horford, particularly and what they've been able to do with their defense, there's a lot of good teams in the East.

I just don't think any of them are really close to the best. bucks. And so then when you, when you, you know, compare that across the Western Conference where there's going to be kind of a bloodbath in terms of, you know, a lot of teams that could work into that contending conversation, you know, if you're particularly high on the rockets or the nuggets or the jazz or whoever you like, obviously the clippers and the Lakers have a different place in that conversation currently, but that conversation could get more complex as the season goes on. I just see the Bucks getting to the finals a bit more easily than some of those teams. And when you ultimately get there, I trust their defense a lot. And I think that's where, you know,

We can talk about the Yanis stuff all day. The fact that they will take away, you know, take away the rim. You know, the bucks are the best team in the league in terms of keeping opponents away from the restricted area. And they force the lowest percentage when you get there. And some of that's just the way that their defense is built and tilts. It kind of, you know, if we're talking about jump shooting teams, they kind of force every opponent to be a jump shooting team. They're going to leave, you know, the fate of an NBA final series or an Eastern Conference final series, you know, not in the hands of a LeBron James or an Anthony Davis. they're going to make Danny Green hit three after three after three.

And if he hits a cold stretch in the middle of that series, if he starts getting in his own head, if Contavius Caldwell Pope isn't completely on point for seven games, then you may be stuck in a really bad way against, again, one of the best players in the world in Janus and a team that's really built to be suited to his strengths. So if we were to make a Bucks blog today, Rob, what would be your name for it?

Oh, God. This is such a hard question. I feel like the hardest one. As I've seen, you know, all these different podcasts, team-centric podcasts pop up and they're trying to name them and teams, you know, really the blog era has died. So I guess the answer is the blogs don't exist anymore. And it's do you want to make a buck-centric Twitter account or podcast? But I got nothing, man. I mean, I feel like you got to go, you have to go Greek-oriented at this point, but you don't want to get too abstract. It's tough.

And then what happens if Yannis leaves, then you really have some egg on your face. See, you're already thinking outside the box. I wouldn't even have thought of going Greek. I was already trying to make buck puns in my head. Like, Buck, what you heard is the one you hear often. And I try to cram into every buck's headline. Nuck if you buck is another popular one. I think there's a T-shirt around here somewhere with that same slogan.

So I don't know. I appreciate that. See, you're already thinking ahead. You're two steps ahead of the entire field. I'm just trying to think of how we can connect the bucks to like Suvlocki or something like that. I don't know. Maybe I'm just hungry. I think that's a good place to stop.

All right. Well, thank you to Rob for joining. us. We will be back next week with Chris Ryan, hopefully, in tow. Until then, enjoy the hoops. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.