The Ringer NBA Show - The Five Tenets of a Legendary League Pass Team | Group Chat (Ep. 334)

Episode Date: November 8, 2018

Kyrie Irving is totally not mad online about Jamal Murray, and the Boston Celtics totally don’t have a problem with offensive distribution (1:20). Plus, could the Lakers be the best League Pass team in NBA history? (22:37). The Lakers May Be the Greatest League Pass Team in History, Justin Verrier Hosts: Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier, Haley O’Shaughnessy, Paolo Uggetti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys? Next week, the Ringer will host their first ever crossover live podcast featuring Ryan Rissilo from Dual Threat and Kevin Clark and Robert Mays from The Ringer NFL show. They'll be at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas on November 12th after the Monday night football game. For more info and links to tickets, check out the ringers, Twitter, and Instagram. Basketball is very good. Anthony Davis will win the MVP this year. The Hawks trading Donchich was a smart move. What if the caps are better without Lebron? Basketball is very good. Hello, it's The Ringer NBA show, and this is Group Chat. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm joined by Justin Verrier. Hi.

Powell O'Gettie. I feel like that gets longer every time. I'm working on a bit. Haley O'Shaughnessy. Group chat, sponsored by Boston. Should I do the entire episode as a character from The Departed, since we have to make up for our Boston snub from our tears? I see you, Boston.

You're not better than ya. They aren't better than they are. They're six and four. And we're going to talk a little bit about the Celtics. We're going to talk a little bit about the Lakers. And then we're going to talk about a piece that Justin Varyer wrote on the ringer.com about what makes a good league pass team

and why the Lakers might be the best league pass team we've ever had. Excellent writer. Let's talk a little bit about these six and four Boston Celtics to start with. And the incredibly not mad online, Kyrie Irving, who loves to let younger players thrive.

And apparently is just, just a real stickler for the old rules of basketball. Yeah, who knew? I support this. Not the old rules of gravity. Who knew that he follows all tradition? Yeah. He just believes in history. He's multi-dimensional. What do you guys think of Boston so far this year?

Is this a case of perception where it's like this is a six and four team, just like the sixers of seven and five, just like tons of teams are six and four and seven and five, and they've got some sputtering going on, but they're getting there. I think the assumption is that they're going to get better. Yeah. Well,

I mean, that's always the assumption. You have so many talented players on that team. At the same time, I think that there's also this looming, like, maybe post-all-Star, maybe right before, where we're going to find out that someone is extremely unhappy with their playing time. Could that someone be from Louisville, Kentucky? So, okay, I'm going to say somebody in the starting lineup. Okay. And my vote is Jailen Brown.

I think he's going to be frustrated. We've already seen, like, a couple times when he has not been chosen to close out games. when he feels like he should have. And last year he did. Last year he was in those moments. So that's a tough thing to accept that you have to take a step back. I think they're kind of boring,

which is a bummer considering what they were last season. Like, there was such a fun, scrappy, like, oh, here comes Jason Tatum and Jellon Brown team that we almost like had to like them because it was like impossible not to. Whereas this season, they've kind of just been a little, I don't know, just more... They lack effervescence.

Yeah, exactly. And like, I agree with Haley that there's some of that is due to the fact that, you know, who takes fear shots and whatnot. And part of it was like, this is my take at the beginning, before the season was I think we're underestimating how much time it's going to take them to gel a little bit. Obviously knowing that like Gordon Hayward, like Kevin O'Connor wrote about on the site this week, like has to be eased back into full health. So I don't know. They just, they're not that interesting to me. I mean, part of it's because they're playing like the Memphis Grizzlies from like 2012. their defense is elite.

Their offense is 23rd. Yeah. They're pretty much falling back into the... They're who we thought the Jazz were going to be last season. Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess there's some reason for optimism for that

because they can't just rely on their defense and grind out games in November and October and they'll be fine probably while their offense comes along. At the same time, like, I'm not ready to worry about Gordon Hayward yet, but if he is playing like this a month from now, I think they have major concerns because who fills that role? Brad Stevens is, you know, doles out a lot of minutes to a lot of different players. They're a deep team.

I think that there was a certain logic to them, especially weirdly in the playoffs without Kyrie. Not that you would ever say you actually want Terry Rozier over Kyrie Irving, but the next man up thing really works when all those next men have to step up. Sure. But if you're just asking all these next men up who know they can play in the league to take 20 minutes a game, 18 minutes a game, 15 minutes a game. And then you've got a lot of strong personalities on the team who are like,

I'm going to take the shot when I get it. And then you got guys like Aaron Baines who have been like liberated to just chuck threes all the time. I just think that there's... And Marcus Smart. There's something on the... Who thinks he's God, Steph Curry, given gift to Earth. And we'll shoot five threes no matter what.

Yes. Which is like, it's funny. It's like that's exactly what Sixers fans kind of want Markell to do. They just want him to play more like Marcus Smart. but this is the flip side of that is that you have to take a lot of bricks and you have to watch as guys

who were like, I would have made that shot are like, okay, go ahead, get your shots off. Like there was almost like an innocent spirit about the team last year. Like everyone was fighting toward a collective like, oh, like let's just prove everybody wrong. Well, it was Stevens maximizing the potential of a bunch of like castoffs kind of.

Yeah, we'd see like Yavu and semi-comers highly specific things, but it would work. And so that's what made them so charming and exciting and you just are not the same charming team if your offense isn't exciting. And what I'm hearing from you guys right now is when is the internet going to come for Brad Stevens? Oh my God. Because he has all the offensive talent in the world and yet they're what, 24th you said?

And isn't that why we love him, those exciting plays? Best defense 24th in offense. 538 has them at 53 and 39 projected record now. Westgate closed on them with it over under a 59 win. So it's like five, six wins less than what they were projected to win. And I do think like a good, like young star player, I think there is a certain level of like maturity and there's like a different like muscle group that you're flexing when you have this many players that you have to manage. Like Greg Popovich obviously is one of the better tacticians in the league, but he's also one of the best kind of organizers and guys who can get people in their right roles. And I think there's like something to be said about this being a particular challenge for Brad more than anybody else on the team. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, they have eight or nine really good players.

And usually with Popovich, when he pulls like, I just yanked all my starters, it's like a bit. But the guys who are coming in, the guys who are around, are your Derek whites, are your, are your, are your, your, your, your, you know, like, guys that nobody else knew about until they wound up on San Antonio. I think that's why, well, exactly. And that was the case last year with Brad. Yeah. And all those people who like literally in the middle of season, we were Googling. Yeah. Yeah.

And Terry, we, guys like Terrier's Euro where we were like, this is, this is. is a joke, right? No, I mean, he's never been a joke. I just lost out of him back. But I also think it's at the end of the day, like, I think Jason Tatum kind of summed it up too nice. I think he had to quote the other day was like, the shots were taking, or he said the shots are just aren't as

open this year. Which is like, that's just like the market correcting against them. Because now they have more talent. So they should be spacing it out. Available. Right. So they should have more threats on offense. Their shots should be better and more open. So they lost to Paul and I just shrugged at each other.

Yeah, that's just, yeah, that's how I feel like the Celtics. I mean, I just, I'm just, I'm just, they'll be fine, but I'm just, I don't really care about them right now. At what point are we like, okay, if they don't turn this around. There's no, there's no turning around. I mean, they're above 500. They're going to make the playoffs. But no, but I would disagree because turn around relative to expectations. We definitely expected them to have a better start than that.

I don't know about you. I had the Raptors as the number one team in the East. But you didn't think that Boston would be. Yeah, that's true. I thought there would be the two seats. More competitive? Right. So the point where we were saying about just like the offense kind of needing to figure itself out,

it does feel like it's easier when you have this many offensive, like, talents and superstars to move the ball in the way that the Warriors do. And I just look this up real quick. The Warriors lead the league and assist. The Celtics are middle of the road. Yeah. Around the Spurs, Suns, Grizzlies, those sorts of teams. I do think it's a lot easier if you're running in motion rather than maybe running, like, just diagrammed, set plays.

Sure. So perhaps there's something they could learn from a team like, like Golden State, obviously everyone can, but I think a team like this where they're switching on defense and playing like the Warriors in that regard, maybe they can bring that activity to offense. And just to take it back to where we started,

there's numbers and then there's attitude. And I think that there was something about the way in which Kyrie Irving was talking last year about like how he had sort of found his basketball soulmate and Brad Stevens and that he was enjoying the sport so much. And all these guys who were like kind of

their talent level was getting maxed by Stevens last season, and just to see them lose to Denver, which is fine. Several teams have lost to Denver this year. And Irving getting really so weirdly annoyed by Jamal Murray, I guess what, like running up the score at the end was what his case was? He was mad that he took the last second shot. He said, if you're going to get 50, do a drug regulation. But here's the thing. Why wouldn't you take that last second shot?

It's not like he was going to hit an arbitrary number. He's going to hit 50 points if he made it. Yeah. He's 21. I won. And then what do you mean? But it's one thing

to have a negative reaction to that. It's another thing to throw the ball under the rafters. It definitely felt like frustration getting out. Yeah, that was like

sore loser ridden all over. And sore knees. He's talked about how he's playing through but he's talking about how he's playing through this sort of

his knee injuries. He had two offseason knee surgeries. He doesn't seem to be like really enjoying it the way he was last year. No. And his big like statement was to

cut his hair. And apparently that was after Tommy Hainson basically criticized him for being a little bit overweight. Yeah. And it does seem like that's the move now because John Wall, who is the least original person ever, also did that same thing. It's just like, I'm so serious now. I got a haircut.

Let's talk a little bit about two other teams. Well, the other team that is the other sort of foundational NBA team, the Lakers, who played the Timberwolves last night. I know, Haley, you went to this game? Did you go to this game, pal? I was not there, no. And then Justin obviously wrote a lot about the Lakers today.

Strange game, kind of all the best and worst qualities of the Lakers on display. I thought it was fascinating how much they relied on Chandler last night, but it was also interesting to watch how much Chandler did stuff that they were lacking. I want to also say,

I think that we should take it as, I don't want to be insulting to their offense, but he assimilated himself so quickly. Oh, yeah. For a good reason. Because it's so simple. Well, look at what McGee is done. Their offense is so simple.

McGee is basically just running and dunking, and that's essentially what they need Chandler to do. And he's proved extremely valuable doing it. But Chandler's also sitting some bone crunching screens. There were a couple of screens last night. There was a certain level of physicality that I think Javille will do in spurts, but is easily blown off of the court in certain ways. And obviously, like, he's only ever really played like 18 to 20 minutes again. He's always been like the 22 minute guy.

Yeah. And when he was gone, they were playing Kuzma at the 5. they're playing, like, you know, they're playing LeBron at the five sometimes. They're just getting bullied to see Chandler down there, and especially at the end of that game, which was essentially all effort, all tapping the ball out, and almost using the wolves' worst qualities against them, which is like lack of effort, essentially, like in getting just dominated by one guy. And, you know, I don't think it's sustainable. Chandler looked completely gassed at the end of that game.

You know, he played so much, but it did make a little bit of a difference. Yeah, he kind of fits with their general. aesthetic, not only because he basically is a, like, an older version than McGee, who's already a little old, but like a lot of what the Lakers are doing are off effort, except for LeBron, who's coasting through most of the game still. Yeah. Like, it's basically just a lot of young players running with, like, their hair on fire. And it works to a large extent because, like, that chaos creates, like, really fun basketball

and, like, really good opportunities. Like, you saw it early in the game. The ball was pinging, like, right off the tip. And I wrote about this today, but they run this play now when ever, Treveille McGee wins the tip off he goes and runs immediately to the hoop for an Ale-Yoop look. And it's just like that's the type of

game they're running and I think Chandler you could just slot him in there and he just fits whatever they want to do. He brings a lot more shall we see it like girth if you will. Yeah yeah. I think like Jabel's more on the nimble side of like that running rim running big man whereas like Chandler can do

what we saw him do last night which was like stuff cat into oblivion. A wall in the paint and like be like, okay, Cat, like, see if you can get through it. And it's just, it makes a big difference on, if you're just going to run a pretty rudimentary offense that has some high screens, and Chandler's the one setting the screen,

I saw a couple of guys melt off screens last night, when LeBron would just, like, run them off of Chandler, and Chandler were just, like, body dudes. So it does matter. Let's talk about the dudes he was bodying. What a weird, unfun, and just kind of like, like, a design.

of a team the Timberwolves are, even though they were, like, winning for much of the game, even though another big performance from Rose,

even though Butler was playing, I can't think of a team that I've seen that seems more disinterested in each other in a long time. I think Charx put this in Slack, but like, it is amazing how poorly

put together they are. Yeah. How just absolutely nothing clicks. And how they're in games, the last two games, because Derek Rose. Derek Rose is leading them. Like making Fores

certainly out of no way. Yeah, Derek Rose is making threes. Who else was it? That had a three line last night, Jimmy Butler. You said Wiggins, too. I think Wiggins had a three. And that is... And Tosh Gibson.

Oh, yeah, right. That's right. That's three threes. And that is just the thing about that is it's abnormal. And it's not going to happen every game. It's not going to happen every four games. They're not a good three-point shooting team.

I think we just got done talking about how complicated the Lakers, like, plan for successes. The wolves are basically that team. They just don't know it. They think they're this, like, grinded out to the defensive team, but they're awful on defense, in large part, because Tibbs is still trying to play defense as if it were 2012,

and they're all offense. And it's good that they're shooting threes because they need those extra points to hang in games, but at the same time you look at just the general, like, organization on the core. It's really kind of like just passing it off to guys and someone getting hot. And it's kind of like they realize it towards the end

as the game goes on. Because they have so much enthusiasm at the start. Like last night, I was really pleased with how Kat came out and started the game. Like, he dunked over, And then he blocked LeBron. It was really exciting. And then you could just see his effort fade slowly away.

I think that there's something to the disconnect between the way that we read body language and the way that we see things happen out on the court or maybe even notice things in locker rooms versus what they actually are. But I will definitely say that Kat looked like a guy going to work where it was like he started his day with the best of intentions and with a good attitude. Had a hot coffee. And a couple things broke wrong and he was just like, fuck this. And you can see it. Took an extra long lunch break. and you can just watch those guys I was familiar

I was telling yourself right now I was telling Justin before we came in here that there was this something I saw a couple times last night was Butler gets the ball at the top of the key starts to drivel over to sort of like the far corner draws I guess a kind of I wouldn't call it a very intense double team

but draws the attention of two defenders brings those two defenders over to the corner and then just like hands it to a shooter in the corner so that the shooter in the corner is actually triple-teens. And that's the offense. And everybody else is standing around looking. And then it's like, oh, maybe Towns again.

No, he's not going to get the rebound. Because Towns was getting absolutely worked by Chandler physically. Oh, my God. And like you said, he just so easily looked defeated. Yes. And then when he was playing with Joshua Kogi and Tyos Jones briefly, I wouldn't say that, I don't think he played a lot by them.

What a bright spot. Josh Kogi. His body language completely changed. Don't break him to him. Effort changed. He was up and on the floor faster. He was popping out of the post to like get to spots differently. You could just tell that he fucking hates going to work with Jimmy Butler every day. I mean, wouldn't you want to go to work with like a coworker who likes you and doesn't make

your life hell and say that you're not doing your job right? Haley is looking right at Paulo right now. There was actually that one play where the ball, I guess the Lakers made a bucket and the ball was like dribbling on the ground and towns went to go get it and then turn around and made Jimmy go get it. So good for him. Yeah, fighting back. This is why this whole thing, just like the start of the season for the world,

honestly feels like death by like a thousand paper cuts. Because it's like, all right, like, let's do something. You know what I'm saying? Like either get rid of Jimmy or like, I don't know. Or pick someone up, sign somebody. I just think they need to get on with their life. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

It's just one of those things that would be the most boring oral history ever because this is the, or it would actually be very exciting for like that practice. That practice. The six weeks where Glenn Taylor was like, Huh. It would just be like, what's going on? What are you guys? It turned to November.

I go to my cabin all of November. So you guys in December. I do want to say something positive about the Wolps though. Last night, I noticed that Andrew Wiggins' shot selection has gotten much better. And you know why? I realize that. Well, no. He took seven threes.

He was eight for 14 from the field. But I do want to say that I saw him like hesitate a couple times. And then he would just pass it off and I was like, Wiggins doesn't hesitate. And then I realized it's because he was like double-teamed. But before he would have taken that shot, last season, he would have taken that shot. Progress.

When you read stories about all these teams that are playing, you know, Mori ball-style offenses a lot. And like, for instance, the Bucks, right? Like so like the all this stuff coming out of the Bucks camp, especially before the season and during the season, it's just Yonis being like, he just wants me to shoot. And if I miss, it's like more valuable that I take the shot. And it's like this, everybody's just imploring like,

hey, this is the kind of offense we're running. you're going to miss half the shots you take more than that. Keep taking him. Keep trying. We're going to get better. We're going to get better. You can see, like, even with Wiggins making better choices shooting-wise, when he would miss, it kind of looked like he got like a D on a paper. You know what I mean? Like, he looked like a guy who was like, I'm going to hear about this.

I'm going to get, like, a tough look from... I mean, Tibbonnees is going to yell at me. Jimmy's going to yell at me. It just looked like there was no room for, like, the normal failure that takes place 50% of offensive possessions. That's never ever been Tibbs. I mean, I can see him getting extremely tough feedback for that because I remember

when Chris Dunn was on the team and he would make one mistake. He'd get yanked. Yeah, he'd get yanked. He get benched. And so any offensive growth he was going to have got totally stunted. It's hard to quantify like chemistry and culture, but it just doesn't feel like a workplace environment where it's like up to ground for the young players to succeed.

Well, yeah, that's a real failure of the ownership because it's not why you hired Tom Tibino in the first place. Right. And you don't pay Andrew Wiggins, a player who hasn't shown much of anything, the max. And I don't feel sorry for Andrew Wiggins. He accepted all that money and he accepted the responsibility that comes along with it. And at the same time, I don't know if he was in a different culture, if it would matter anymore. So what do you mean by that? You think that, like, if Andrew Wiggins is on the Bucks, do you think he's Chris Middleton? Like, I mean, he would probably be encouraged more to shoot, but as we just diagnosed, like, he was doing that pretty freely in the game.

I mean, I don't know. It's hard to tell the advantage of positive thinking and motivation there. But it just seems like he kind of is who he is. And it seems like he almost struggles to do multiple things at once. I mean, we talked about this on Slack last night. Essentially is just like if he is looking to shoot, he's not looking to drive. And if he's not scoring, he maybe will focus in on defense. But if he's not playing defense, maybe he won't score. And so versatility is almost like it's lost because he can only do one of those things. Which really hurts when, like, you know, say switching. Yeah. And help defense.

Any observations on Jimmy Butler last night? I mean, yeah. Honestly, he is the one constant. Like, he always plays the same, which is so weird. He just doesn't care about anything. Yeah. Yeah. See.

Jimmy Butler here. All right. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. And we come back. We're going to talk a little bit about what makes a good league past team, which is not the Timberwolves. Today's episode of The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Microsoft Surface. Thank you, Microsoft Surface, for being a sponsor of the show.

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Group chat. We're talking about what makes a good league pass team. and that's because Justin Vary wrote a really cool piece today about the Lakers. We've been writing about the Lakers a lot, so we're always looking for different ways to talk about them. But I thought that this is a fascinating and very true piece because aside from our sort of L.A. hipster elite media bubble, I think that this is a fascinating team outside of LeBron because of this, you know, for all the reasons you lay out in your piece. So can you tell me a little bit about when you first kind of started thinking about this? at what point you were like, oh, this team is kind of like catnip for like for league pass.

I think it started in the first preseason game. Yeah. We were talking about earlier. That one play was the first play they ran was a L.Aup off, a tip-off. And it really just trickled down from there to the first game they played in Portland was close and was competitive. And then pretty much every game they played ever since has been competitive. And if you look at what we're looking for in a nightly watch, it's just the teams that go back. and forth, teams that run at high pace, and they really just lean into that more than any other

team. Because on top of that, on top of being just this team struggling to figure out who they are and struggling against every opponent that they have, they're also a LeBron team, which means that there's a lot of drama. They're also a young team, which means that they have all these young prospects we're interested in. And they are a legacy team, which means that everyone expects to compete for the title every year. Yeah. I mean, it's the fact that LeBron still has, that it's not even appointment viewing. It's like the circus is in town.

It's to say, like, I remember, like, so vividly from when Miami first started playing in that when it went and he'd gone to the heat. And they would come to towns and it would just be like kind of like the sporting event of the week. It would just be like, are you going to go see Miami? You're going to go see Miami? You're going to try to get tickets to Miami? Have you read, like, old, like, NBA history books?

Like, that's how it was with all of the, like, with Will and, like, with Russell. And, like, well, and even before then, like, when it was barely televised, like, that was always how it was. Yeah. You know, and now that's like, I mean, yeah, that's always been LeBron. But it's, it's kind of got a new layered this time because teams actually, they can beat LeBron. Right.

You know what I mean? Like most times when LeBron, I mean, he has slow starts in the past. Obviously, the Miami started all like kind of like, I think 5 and 5 or 9 and 10 or something like that and then went on to be amazing. But that first Cleveland year was really bad. Then they were like a 50, 60 win team or whatever. But this year, it's the year that you're kind of like, oh, yeah, anybody has a shot at these Lakers.

And precisely the reason that you kind of laid out, which is that like, Like there's going to be so many possessions and there's going to be so much live ball action off of miss threes kind of that it does get up and down and you can get back in games on them. And that's why I think the point about how close games are, like no matter what, like if they're down 20, they'll probably come back and like make it close. And like I think that's such an appealing concept. And that I think has been the most appealing to me. It's like not only can you beat LeBron, but even if you're beating him, he will try and come back and possibly like be you in the same span of a quarter. Hell, I'll go a step further. Last night, it seemed like LeBron was helping Minnesota get back in.

I'm like, stop pulling, stop running up with a defender in your face and like taking a pull-up three. He was just like looking off. Abram was wide open a couple of those times at the end of games. Like, Ingram would be standing here. Yeah. No, like literally me, not like a defender. Okay, here's what I have to say about that. I think that in Miami and even in Cleveland with Kevin Love, the difference was,

it was more like with Boston's going through now. They have the talent. They just have to figure it out. Right? And to Miami, much more of a degree than in Cleveland when you were there. Now I'm like, no, you guys are a league pass team because you are like a compilation of past league pass teams. Like you have Lance Stevenson. That's the reason we watched the Pacers.

You have Michael Beasley when he would go off. Like that's the reason we'd watch the Knits. You know what I mean? Like that is now you don't have that. Oh, we're going to figure it out because we're all really good. Yeah. And there's something about LeBron kind of being in his senior moment here where it's almost like the league. God he looks so annoyed. Yeah. It's like he is almost existing on a different

like playing as the rest of his team. I described it as almost like being the instructor at a fantasy camp where it's just like you're just looming over the entire team and you're like, you're technically in control of everything that's happening. But at the same time, if they screw up, you're probably just going to yell at them and just blame them for doing it. There is like a feeling even going to the games and like even being inside the locker room that you get that feeling. I mean, you've been there. You've seen like it's, It's like a mass crowd to LeBron, and then it all kind of spreads out to the other players,

but, you know, for postgame. And he just, he just stays there and he's going about his business and doing his things, but he kind of, like, lords over it. It's really weird. I think that what we're getting at, though, is this, you know, basketball doesn't owe us entertainment necessarily, but I do think that, like football and with the spread offense is there,

and like in European soccer where it's very invoked to have these kinds of blitzing, counterpressing teams that are always going, like, taking as many shots as possible over the course of a game. Baseball, I don't, you know, I can't really account for baseball. But more and more sports are pivoting towards being like the most entertaining possible versions of themselves. Well, baseball is trying to speed up.

It's trying. So I guess maybe that's, I would point you to a few playoff games where I feel like I aged two years during, like, pitching change. I fell asleep during at least three. Yeah. But it is, it is interesting to consider, like, what a League Pass team is when so many teams are trying to play so fast and play so entertaining. So let's go beyond the Lakers.

Let's talk a little bit about what we look for when we're looking for a League Pass team. And I think it's actually worth mentioning that a league pass team is not quite the same thing as you have to watch the Warriors tonight because they, you know, it's like it's your duty as a sports fan to witness. Yeah, no, a league past team is like, you don't, like, winning is not what makes a league pass team. Right, right. Like, I kind of think, sometimes I think of a league pass team as like a great episode of House.

You know, okay. Sure. You're like, wait. Because it's odd. It was a safety pin in this esophagus. Yeah, it's lupus. It's always lupus. On Tuesdays, you know, like, or whatever, and you're home, and you're just kind of like,

well, what am I going to watch? And then you get this run of, you can have 10 different channels. It's like, what are you going to choose? What's going to provide you with the most reliable level of entertainment? And in a strange way, won't actually demand that you have, like, a lot to say about it. You know what I mean? Like, there is a certain, because I think that that is kind of, that is, part of it. You wrote a lot about this idea of the middle

and how the middle is sort of looked down upon in the NBA, but that's where you find all the interesting stuff. Right. It's basically the team budding up against like the reality of like the real world expectations that kind of the good team set. Like you can build for a year or two

and you could have fun just kind of messing around and turning it all over and playing fast, but at a certain point you have to kind of figure out who you are and like there are so many teams in that middle now. that are butting up against that and at the same time,

budding up against a lot of the other teams in the league because they could usually hang for the most part, but a lot of times it can go either way. And so that kind of unknown quality in a league, like the NBA, which is probably the most easy to predict out of all of them. We kind of know what we're getting into most years. I think that is often what I kind of draw myself.

Right. And I think the concept of a league pass team we've kind of created as a mechanism to get through the 82 game season, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And a lot of them now are like, it's entertaining this season because there's a lot of, like, post tanks. Yes.

You know? That's exactly right. People are coming out of the tanks. So we, like, get to figure them out. And that's what I told you guys is, like, my, how I finally pass teams. It's like, I like to see young guys that I didn't know we're going to thrive in this way thrive. Okay. So give me an example.

So, like, last year, obviously, like, this is a very obvious example. But, like, Donovan Mitchell and the Jazz were obviously. Oh, shocking. That you weren't that. I mean, they were. Like, we didn't think that they were going to have good offense. We thought that they were going to totally take. an enormous step back.

They wound up taking a step forward. Their offense was fun. Their defense was solid. They had all these guys who we just like did not know we're going to play in this certain fashion or play this well. And it was beyond Donovan Mitchell. And so like that is what I like. And then this year I kind of think of the Nets in that way, not necessarily that

they're young, but it's just like two years ago, the joke about the Nets was obviously like, who are these guys? You know? And this year, like, they're not having. house. They're like SVU. It's like, you think Daniel Russell's the one who did it. And then it turns out as Karras. And then it's like it's been Dinwiddie all along.

So I love watching them. I think it's a generational gap that you refer to it as SVU rather than Law and Order. What do you look for, Justin? I think that hits on something. I mean, the kings are probably among the top League Pass teams going right now. And I think for the

reasons Haley kind of laid out, like we get to see guys that we weren't really sure about. We knew they were good prospects coming in, but they're kind of taking a step forward here, but I think the big part of that is also the pace that they're playing at. I mean, we talked about this with the Lakers before, so I won't belabor the point, but it's just like the ball moves.

And especially in today's day and age, even if you're playing 115 possessions, like, that might not be enough because there are teams that are playing like 130 like the Kings. Yeah. I mean, that's also like a basic entertainment thing, right, too, because if you're just watching people play ISO, and that's why that's why I think the rockets are actually rather

are unentertaining to watch, aside from some of the personalities that they have, is the, especially last season, the amount of ISO, like it was entirely based on how much you liked Hardin's game. And I actually don't like, just on an aesthetic level, foul hunting. So I kind of just would like zone out when they were on. Yeah, it's anti-baseball.

Essentially, everything is in motion. Even the Lakers, a team that doesn't really shoot a lot of three-pointers, which would rack up the score. But their ability to put so many passers on the court at the same time, the ball is just moving, like constantly. This is why I like soccer so much because it never stops. And when we get those possessions without stoppage in basketball,

I think it's like the peak of entertainment value. Yeah. So was there any other aesthetic reasons, though, that you picked teams? Chris is leaning into the fact that I put in our slack earlier that I like teams with bright colors. I don't know. I think there's something about a color palette. Maybe I'm just a...

I just imagine you at home like eating Cherry Garcia. Maybe. Listening to the dead and being like, yeah, man. A little chunky monkey. Look at this neon. No, I, this is crackpot and I'm just gonna keep rolling with it,

but like I think about how like Portland puts in those like happy lights during the winter, which are supposed to curb like, uh, a seasonal undush. Haley, do you need a minute?

tackling for it now. But tell me a team wearing yellow isn't more fun than a team wearing, I don't know, blue. I guess you're right. I mean, I think that there is like a natural affinity

for that. That's true. That's why I find the Hornet's so boring. Right? Nobody likes teal. The teal is pretty bright. It's more of like a drab bright color. I don't know. Their classic uniforms are really nice. Well, we get really excited about like when the heat do their Miami Vice outfit, the uniforms.

I don't know if that'll make me watch the heat this year, though, to be honest. So here's another thing about the heat. Well, here's the thing about the heat and here's the thing about a lot of teams. And I think this is kind of like not always fair because there's so many different factors that go into this. But I really do respond on a pretty physical. level to like if you can detect atmosphere in a game. Like if you, it's just why like first half

of heat games while people are still like getting to the arena is usually pretty dead. I feel the same. You hate the heat fans. I don't hate heat fans although I do like I grew up in a different era of heat fans I think which was a lot of like snowbirds who come in for the playoffs and are like

Miami Heat baby. You know I but I would say that I I'm not like a I can't really watch Detroit games. There's like 16 people in that gym. You know what I mean? And it's like if you guys don't care, I don't care. Right. And it just goes on to the court. Unless the sixers are playing, I'm just not trying to watch. Yeah.

That being said, I will watch a Utah game. I will watch a Portland game. You know what I mean? Places that have like... Portland is so much fun in the point. And it's kind of, you know, it's kind of hard to overstate this. But like pre-Silicon Valley Oracle was like essentially Cameron every night. Even if no matter how bad the teams were, you know what I mean?

I still like, I like the Raptors. like the Raptors have pretty good crowds like especially like I mean playoffs it's just absurd it's more like a soccer crowd when it gets into the playoffs but I really enjoy the Raptors crowds and for as much as the product

has been bad over the last couple years if the Knicks are ever on a even more than two game wins street their gardens friggin' incredible right and they also have that nice theater lighting which the Lakers have and Nets have and I think the Clippers have started to institute they started doing it I thought the Lakers wouldn't let them do it

while they were at Staples that's like a completely made up thing that I just did, but I thought that was the case. There are restrictions on the clippers because they don't own the lease, but yeah, I think this season, there's something going on with the lighting is a little bit, dimmer. It's not as drastic. Getting a higher stream, higher quality.

Join me on Hsu TV, where we can talk about this. The lighting's a little more yellow. Haley's, like, watching on like, Azerbaijani streams. It's a quick, quick aside. It's interesting that you mentioned Cameron, because of all the league past rates we've listed so far,

we're not a college basketball podcast, but I think like this Duke team hits on like every one of them. Oh, good call. They're going to have an amazing time this year. They're going to have young guys that like we've known about because of RJ and Zion. Yeah. But now he finally get to see.

They have pace because of how they're going to, how they, it seems like they're going to fly. Yeah, and at least for like, you know, before they go play like the tournament of Atlantis for six weeks, which is always the most confusing thing about college basketball is back. But we're going to the Bahamas for a little while.

Sorry, we'll be back in a few months. And they play American like six times. Yeah. Yeah. But there will be that appointment TV element to it. And, you know, that first North Carolina game will just be, like, nuts, you know? Yeah. What else are we looking for from league past team?

Anything? He check guy. That was mine. And I think I, as I've thought about that, I can even narrow it even a little further, which is I need, like, a fun guard. Okay. Because, you know, like, if you're telling me that, like, Blake Griffin's got, like, 30 through, I don't know, half or something.

And he's doing a lot of spin-moved layups? I might turn in, but it's not a... thing where I'm like, I have to turn in. Whereas if you tell me, I don't know, CJ McCollum's got 30 and a half, I might turn in. So I think for me specifically, like these guards that can just like get any shot. It's the post-Steff world.

Exactly. I mean, it's obviously like Iverson, we've been watching these guys like that for a while, but it is the Steph kind of like unblacked out. Like this is going to, everything I shoot is going in is kind of the thing. There's nothing more fun than a three-pointer from like five feet out.

Yeah. And LeBron seems to almost be willing to take these more. I can't tell it's because he's like trying to stretch the court or it's just like won't get back on offense. Yeah. Just like trying to get back on defense so he doesn't have to run as far. So can I tell you guys who the League Pass team is that you're all talking about? It checks almost every box. If you say it's six years.

No, you can't because they don't shoot. Well. I'm not trying to foist my agenda on you. Can we guess? Wait, yeah, let's guess. Is it in a Western Conference? No, okay. Well, you can't do that.

Is it in? Don't ask me the division. Yeah, I was like, wait. Thunder? I don't even know that. No. No. Well, they have a good crowd.

They have a great crowd. Yeah. I love that arena. But I think everybody else has kind of broken me. Heat check guy, young people. I mean, I don't know about the heat check guy part, but it has everything else. Portland? No.

The suns. The Memphis Grizzlies. Oh, go away. Yes. I'm here for this. I tweeted before the season that there are only three. Post tank. So they're getting better again.

Oh, God. Mark and Mike are healthy. Sharon Jackson's good as shit. Holy cow. He is like, oh, I'm going to watch the Grizzlies now. It's like,

what if Marvin Williams had been good? But they also play at the league's 30th rank pace. Sure. Yeah, I'm not saying it's like, it's not,

I'm not saying it's like a complete perfect concoction here. Good gym, like great crowd when they're into it, you know? Last night they had these powder blue,

it would basically look like North Carolina. It's like, because they had like the parquet court almost or like the weird, the weird hardwood. I don't know. I just thought that they were really exciting. Kyle Anderson is not exactly like a heat check guy,

but he can make like cool pocket passes and make stuff happen. You guys want somebody to be buying into this. You're like, hey, the slowest guys to ever play basketball. You guys come up with him. Green grind has returned slightly, but with like a little bit of spice and that spice is like Jared Jackson. It's bigger ball. Yeah, like I looked this up earlier and there are way too many stats to get into,

but the profile is basically grit and grind, but they shoot more threes. Right, exactly. I'm into that. I love watching Mike Conley. I think he's got one of the most fun and, like, unique games just the way he plays. And, like, Haley and Justin are not paying attention to me right now. But I was going to go out spratic about my comedy. He'll just, like, totally put up a high five and then pulled it away.

Because she realized it was going to make a sound. Yeah. It was worth it. I'm going to that. I'm enjoying them. Give me somebody else then. I mean, I said the Kings earlier. I think they've been the most fun team to watch that's far.

Are you still saying that number one for you? I mean, Lakers number one to sell my piece on the ringer do. I'm going to check it out. Okay. But then the Kings. What about you? Well, it's just like, I mean, first of all, I want to say yes to the Kings because the other thing about young guys thriving who I didn't think we're going to thrive or necessarily weren't on my radar or whatever. A rookie having a tough rookie season and coming back and being like, no, guys, wait, I'm good.

It's so much fun because you just want to root for the young guys. Fox is great. So Deer and Fox being really exciting is good. I have a lot of heat check teams. League pass. He checked. League pass. League pass. League pass seems. One of those is a podcast. Yes. Do the bugs qualify? I guess they're too good.

No, no. I would say. Okay. I'll make mine the bucks because because what else, what we didn't talk about before is that anytime a team is differently is also exciting. Yes. When the new system is put into place. That was why the Raptors for me were a league past team yesterday. Okay. Because you want to watch and you want to find out what's going on. Yeah. I mean, I think that the rat, like, it's hard to get Kauai is a little too flat. personality-wise, and I think that the Raptors are almost taking on his persona of just being like...

Who said that they wanted Quai to come on their podcast? Who was it on the Raptors? Who has a podcast? He was like, yeah, I'm going to get Quai on it. Well, I think he's Danny Green? That sounds like... Oh, Danny Green has a pod? Awful.

Danny, you're going to get it canceled. What's he going to talk about? If he just does the laugh, it'll go viral. The preseason press conference where they were like, tell us a little bitch about yourself. We don't know anything. We're a Canada. We're receptive. And he's like, well, I mean, you can't just ask me that.

there's a lot that goes into it. To be fair. It was a question. Back to Lee Pesci. I would nominate. Tell me about yourself. I would nominate. He couldn't come up with anything for tell me about yourself. Besides, I'm a fun guy and I like basketball.

That's what I would say. What else is he going to say? I like destroying the legacy of one of the great sporting institutions. I'm a fun guy. It is a classic response. And like, people for their fun guys are not fun guys. Haley literally tells me this once a week. This is not a bit.

One time I was like, wouldn't this piece be fun? And he was like, yeah, I love fun. And I was like, that's what people who don't love fun. She's not wrong. Bala, take us out. I was just going to say it. I was just going to nominate the Pacers. Oh, yeah.

I think Deepo kind of fits the heat check guy Bill. And Haley and I have adopted Demontas Savonis for some reason. I love Tobonis. We text about it all the time. You text about Demodis to bonus all the time? I could show you the entire. I'll show you the receivers. Sounds like a fun group chat.

I think that's where you should happen. I love to be included. This one kind of got away from me. I got to admit. Thank you for listening to group chat. We got quarter three tomorrow. Read Justin Verrier's Lakers piece on the ringer.com. We'll be back next week for Palo, Justin, and Haley.

I'm Chris. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.