The Ringer NBA Show - The Five Things That Still Need Sorting Out Over the Season’s Final Month | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos talk about five teams that have things to sort out, including the Nets (1:55), Sixers, Lakers (21:00), Timberwolves, and Nuggets. They also talk about the Rookie of the Year race and give their thoughts on the first two episodes of the HBO series 'Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty' (50:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For as long as I've known the NBA, it's been a Stars League. But even among the Stars, there's an exclusive club. Russell and Dr. Jay, Jordan, Kobe. They're all part of a select group that paved the way for the NBA superstar of today. And some even shared secrets with each other along the way. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Jackie McMullen. And this is the icons club. Group chat and the boys.

are back in town. I am Justin Barrier, Big Waz, Rob Mahoney, the full crew is here. You know, there are a lot of great artists that have podcasted together over the years. Nothing quite like this group, though. Nothing. That's true. Waz, how are you feeling to have everybody back? It's amazing, man. It's almost like that. It's like when your favorite rock band gets back together inevitably because they need to put a new

pool in their career. So that's what this feels like. reunion tour. There you go. Yeah, we're already on the back end of our careers, is what that suggests to me. But today, we are going to reset a little bit

because we have only a month, a month left in this glorious NBA season before we hit the play and then the playoffs. So we're going to look into the five, count them five and maybe a couple other more, things that need sorting out in the remaining month of the NBA season. Let's start with the big news from last night. Our guy, Kyrie,

going for 60 points against a defy, inflated. Let's call them Orlando Magic Team. I believe that's four straight for the Brooklyn Nets, three of which were on the road, coincidentally. But Kyrie is on a bit of a heater right now. And KD, too, if you want to throw the NICs performance in there as well, and in the Celtics game. So, I ask you, do the Nets, the Brooklyn Nets become the favorites if they figure out the Vax mandates? Yeah, I don't think anybody in the Eastern Conference has separated themselves in any meaningful way, right? I think we all have a lot of respect for Miami and what they've done this season, even with all the injuries. We have a lot of respect for the Bucks for having won the

championship last year, and they do have their big three back despite them really missing Brooke Lopez. And I think Sixers fans were really excited about the Hardin ordeal, which we'll get into. But, you know, you got to respect the talent level that's over there. But nobody is head and shoulders above anything in the East. And most people would say that the Nets, still have the best player in the conference and Kevin Durant. And, you know, Steve Nash has said, Ben Simmons will be coming back soon,

sooner rather than later. And so if they have their full complement of players and KD is relatively healthy and so is Kyrie. And, you know, the vaccine stuff won't prohibit him from playing at Barclays Center. I don't see how you can make, you know, some forceful argument that they're not, right, there as the favorites to come out of the east.

Well, did Steve Nash say that Ben Simmons will come back? Because what I heard is he has extremely high hopes that Ben Simmons will come back, which I have extremely high hopes for so many things, Justin. I don't know about you, including Ben Simmons coming back. I would love to see that version of this team. But I think realistically, we have to at least kind of plan for the possibility that maybe Simmons isn't a huge part of whatever their playoff picture looks like. Yeah, I think that's my question.

Do they even need Ben Simmons to complete this title picture for them? Because honestly, like, you get Ben Simmons there, obviously he's going to have a lot of impact on the defense event. But like, then you factor in the fact that he hasn't been playing all regular season, like what he needs to ramp up. And also like, do the free throws become an issue? Do guys, do teams send them to the line? And does that just gunk up everything the Nets are doing? I was looking back to game seven against the Bucks last year. And here's the lineup that they put out there that nearly, just nearly beat the,

eventual NBA champions, James Harden with one hamstring, Bruce Brown, Joe Harris, Blake Griffin, Kevin Durant with Jeff Green, Nicholas Clackson, and Landry Schaman off the bench. Last night against the magic, they start Kyrie Irving, Gorin Drogich, Bruce Brown again, KD, Andre Drummond, with Patty Mills, Seth Curry, Kessler Edlers, Nick Clackson off the bench. That seems like a much better team than the one that they almost knocked off the champs with. So I wonder, like, is this enough on itself without Ben, Simmons was in order to compete for a title. Yeah, I think it's enough to compete for sure.

But I just think they lack a certain level of, you know, just dynamic offense outside of what KD and Kyrie can do in the shopmaking realm. Because, you know, we watched Kyrie, like, all of that shit last night was just shopmaking. The kind of stuff that you absolutely need in the playoffs, but the kind of stuff you also don't want to solely. subsist on in your offensive ecosystem for it to thrive, right?

So, like, yes, it's a blessing that they have two of the best shot creators, shopmakers in the league. Two of the best that the league has ever seen, by the way, on their roster. But I think they're missing just a little bit more oomph outside of that stuff without Ben Simmons to create, you know, secondary stuff attacking, closeouts, in transitions, the kind of buckets that you need, you know, to prop your offense against the best defenses in the playoffs. So I think they can compete, but I don't, you know,

I just, I really do think they need some of what Simmons brings in the garbage stuff, you know, the stuff that it doesn't come from exquisite, precisely executed offensive play. It's the stuff where, you know, putbacks and dunks after a steel and those kind of things, duckins, like those kind of things, is what I think they're missing.

Yeah, until Simmons is a full go, that's what makes Bruce Brown pretty essential for a lot of their lineups, especially their closing lineups. He's the closest thing they have to that kind of garbage, pale, defender, effort, rebounder, cutter, that they're going to need. And if Ben Simmons is an even bigger version of that

with more playmaking and even better defense and more versatile, that could be awesome for them. In the meantime, I guess Bruce Brown will have to do, and he's done a pretty adequate job despite the fact that, you know, their perimeter lineups are very small. It's a lot of, you know, Irving and Mills and Curry and Brown. Or, you know, putting Brown in for one of those three guys.

And, you know, you have Dragich in that mix, too. There's just a lot they have to compensate for on the perimeter right now without Simmons. So, like, that's a pressure point in a potential playoff series for sure. Now, if Kyrie Irving is playing the kind of defense he did against Philly for entire playoff rounds, and he's able to play in those full playoff rounds, maybe that's a different question. It's just... You know, the stuff with Kyrie is always so complicated. And Zach Lowe rightly brought up on his podcast that that performance was like one of the four games,

one of every four games that Kyrie will actually try on defense, which I guess in this season means one of every eight games because he's only playing half of them to begin with. So that's a bit of a tough sell. But I really do wish we were at a point in the season where we could just more wholeheartedly and straightforwardly appreciate what Kyrie is doing because when he has played, he's been pretty sensational. And it's not just the 60-point games. I mean, that game against the Sixers, that's as good as it gets in terms of a regular season,

big moment showing up in every capacity that your team needs you to. And that's a good case. You know, if he can get cleared and ready to play for a full playoff series, that version of the Nets is going to be very hard to beat. Well, Rob, you only need four in the playoffs. So if they get four defensive games from Kyrie, that's a win in the series.

But no, yeah, I think you make a good point. But, like, of late, he just seems to be playing with more of a purpose. And it does feel like whatever happened with Hardin, whatever is happening with the Vax mandates has galvanized his entire team. And in particular, Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving to play on another level. And now let's pause and reflect and point out that this all is happening because of Kyrie. He caused all of these problems. But in some weird, convoluted nobody believes in a sort of way. They're using this now as motivation to take it out

on the Sixers and some of these other teams to show them what they can do. And like, if it works for you, I guess like it's going to produce results. I don't understand how we got to this point. But the Nets are, it feels like, playing with more umph to them than they had previously. You know, every team is always trying to manufacture its own nobody believes in us mentality.

This is some next level shit from from Kyrie to go to this extent just to make it seem like the world is against the nets when it's uh Kyrie is against the nets. Right. And because it does bear mentioning, right? Like I do, as stupid as I think the rules are at this point, and they make, it kind of makes no sense

what we're allowing and disallowing at this point. Um, this was caused by one guy's decision to go against the grain and be a rebel or principled or whatever the fuck we're calling it. Uh, like he made this choice. He was like, I'm not doing it. And he stood on it. And he said, fuck my teammates. Fuck the product that we're supposed to be putting on as partners with the league.

Fuck all of that. I'm not doing it because I don't want to. And so these are the results of it. Yeah, it's real Phil Jackson level manipulation of the narrative here and his own teammates. So I guess it's working from now. But let's flip to the Sixers now, the other team, I guess, on the end of this trade. and at the forefront of this big Eastern Conference race here, things have been a little bit more mixed than they were to start with.

You know, they lost to the nets, obviously, in pretty disastrous fashion. And then they lost to the Nuggets early in the week, a better game, but still revealed some of the flaws there. I could see you just licking your chops here. So let me just kick this to you. Can the Sixers figure out whatever needs figuring out in time to really be at the top of the East, when all things are said and done. You know, when you ask if the Sixers can figure it out,

I feel like a lot of it is can Doc figure it out. And as of recent, the answer would be no. The answer is playing DeAndre Jordan too long, which is another problem. Again, when it comes to Doc Rivers, he has not been the most flexible of coaches, right? Like, he's been somebody who's like, this is what I like, this is what I prefer,

And so this is what I'm going to do as far, especially when it comes to lineups and rotations. Look, I don't know he's had an a version of like, for instance, he has an a version of playing Danny Green with Tybal at the same time. For whatever reason, he just thinks this is something that he's not allowed to do or can't do. They haven't figured out the maxi thing since James Hardin got there. He's basically become a non-entity, especially late. in games since Hardin has gotten there.

And, you know, the whole point of keeping Maxie and being like, oh, he's this acid, whatever is that you're going to use him, that he's allegedly, like, really good right now. And look, I go back to the bubble where they completely went down in flames against the Denver Nuggets, a team that they were supposed to manhandle. And we basically, yeah, the Clippers, sorry. And we basically blamed the entire ordeal on Montrez-Harre's, Harold. At no point did Doc switch up what he was doing where I was one of those people

that was like, look, y'all not guarding Yokitch anyway, why not go small? Why not make them uncomfortable? Why not spread them out? Why not try something different? And Doc has refused to do it. So when I hear you ask, will they figure it out? It's, will Doc stop being stubborn

and stop and stop basically running things in the ground that just are obvious. demonstratively not working. And there's been no evidence of his willingness to do so in recent history. I never thought I would look longingly on the days when Paul Millsap was the Sixers backup center. Right.

But then I say DeAndre Jordan out there. And I ask this in all honesty, like, what is he supposed to offer them? What is he supposed to be doing? Because he's not doing it. He doesn't box out. He got beat on a back cut from the time. Top of the key by Nicola Yokic. I don't know what to tell you.

Like, that guy should not be in the game. I would be more comfortable with Roll Millsap out there. Put Paul Reed at center. I'm 100% serious. I would be more comfortable with that than DeAndre Jordan at backup five. That's not working. And if you're going to play that guy extended minutes, it's really not going to work.

The Sixers saw that he wasn't playing for the Lakers and like, we need that. We need the guy that can't crack one of the worst rotations in basketball right now. By the way, one of the worst rotations and who sorely need a big, right? Like, I was at the game the other night against Toronto where they, Toronto just like, layup line after layup line after layup line.

Or they just straight up back down Malik Monk. Like, they were just like, these guys are too small to deal with us. We're going to bully them. That's the team that told D'Andre Jordan, who's one of the biggest guys in the fucking league, to pack his bags and get the hell out. And the six was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we want.

And that's who we're going to give heavy minutes to. Well, so I think this starts with Doc. I do agree with that. His stubbornness, what he's committed to, what he's willing to do. That's going to be under the microscope all postseason. But once the guys get on the floor, there is the question of, can they find ways to engage Matisse Thibel to make him something offensively? And if you can't, you can't really stretch his minutes that far.

and if you can't stretch his minutes that far, you're going to get a lot of James Harden and Tyreys Maxi getting picked on defensively because, was, I disagree with you a little bit and I think that Maxi's been pretty good offensively, but he's been really bad on defense. He hasn't been able to guard anybody, and it's a lot of like hands up,

where was my rotation, where was my help? It's like, if you're not diverting them into the right places or giving any kind of resistance, you're just not going to get that kind of help. Yeah, I think I'm just going with the recency bias, obviously, of the loss of the nuggets the other night who shouts to my guy, Ben Goliver, who was on the show,

was on weekends on Sunday, and he pointed out that, look, like, Joel never gets any of the blame. It's always somebody else's fault. And, you know, like, look, like, he got outplayed down the stretch of that game, and down the stretch of the game, it was, like, very heavily James Harden,

and Maxie was not involved. Last five minutes, he wasn't involved in OT. He just wasn't. And I'm just, like, in tight moments, If it's just going to be this James Hardin show, the Savior, the validator, if it's just going to be that, I don't think that's going to work, because I don't think James Hardin is that type of guy anymore. The heavy usage at the end of games, carry people down the stretch,

they're going to have to figure out how to come up with some other way to manufacture quality looks than James Harden dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble. Yeah, I wonder if the maxi, thibol, green issues are all related, right? What is the perfect combination in order to supplement what Harden and and Beter now doing? Like, Maxi is going to give you a little offensive juice, but as Rob alluded to,

the defense has not been good, including like dying on every possible scene, uh, screen against the Nets and the Nets took full advantage of that, right? Um, but I, like, green probably matters a little bit more to this team than he should at this point in his career and he's not giving you much on offense, especially after this finger injury that he had.

Maybe that's what's causing him not to shoot as well and why they had to close with George Nying as opposed to Green in that game against the Nuggets. But like... Which wasn't great. Which wasn't great. Like, I swear to God, like, I must have seen every bad game that George Nying ever played with Utah, but he would always just be awful. And I'm like, why do guys even like him, but this, that's the otherwise?

So it must just be a me thing. But like, I don't know what the... How dare you? You would love this guy. just a just a bowling ball that shoots three that's that's your that's your vibe what's not to like but i don't know what the perfect combination is and that's what kind of brings me to tobias harris as maybe a source of maybe the most consternation it's like you're also making a max contract why aren't you giving more than like 10 to 14 points a game and like some stretch and not enough

defense like how nice would it be to run like a small ball lineup where he's picking and popping with James Hardin. And that is like maybe your secondary offense when Embed is off the floor, right? You just turn to that and that's your, I just like, you're not getting enough from these other guys. And I don't really know what the combination is this season right now in order to make them on the level of a net or even a box or even a heat. And again, not to beat this like a dead horse. What makes your picking role most dangerous is when the other team is deathly afraid of switching.

Tobias Harris, pick and roll with James Hardin, I can guard either one of you guys with the same dude no matter what. Like straight up, James Hardin is not slicing and dicing people in isolation anymore. He's just not. Go watch the Sixers games.

Go look at his isolation stats. He used to be, remember, Darryl used to brag about this shit all the time. He's the best isolation player in the league. The numbers bear it out. Look at his points per possession. Best isolation, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think it was not the league.

It was in NBA history, was the claim. Right. He's the best offensive player in NBA history. All of this shit, all of this shit we used to hear from his buddy. Go look at those stats right now. That ain't the case. And Tobias Harris, again, he's not going to bully a smaller wing. And he's absolutely not just cooking bigger guys off of the dribble with his, you know, his blinding first step.

And so, go ahead, run your pick and rolls with Tobias Harris and James Hart. I'm switching it. And I'm beating that freaking action every single time. So yeah, they got big problems. And I don't know that they have the pieces to solve it. Because, again, it's not as if we talked about doc stubbornness. James Hardin, it's not as if he's ever switched up how he wants to play. He's not going to come in here and become some great off ball threat.

Like when he gives up the ball, he's going to be moving off the screens and, you know, creating diversions and forcing people to respect his gravity as a shooter in a penetrator. He ain't doing that. He's giving up the rock and he's going to stand 30 feet away with his hands on his hips. So the people that you need to step up and figure something out differently have not demonstrated that they're willing to do so in our recent past. And maybe they find a light, JV, you know, for the believers in the audience. Maybe you've got to have faith sometimes. Maybe they'll find the light and make some adjustments. but I don't know why you would be optimistic of that. But that's why the key part here is, do they have enough time? Because even if they are going to solve those things hypothetically,

doing it on the fly in the final stages of the regular season, it's hard. You know, like what they're asking Matisse Thibel to do offensively now, a guy who has stood in the corner, basically his entire career to this point. Now he's screening for Hardin. He's like in the middle of the floor as a connector, trying to make passes between guys.

Sometimes that stuff goes really well. Sometimes it doesn't. Tobias Harris now has to be like the ultimate gear shift player for them where as we're saying, Justin, when Embed or Hardin or out of the game, he has to be a much more involved offensive player. And when they're in the game, especially with Maxi, he basically has to stand on the wing and stretch the floor and shoot quickly and make very quick decisions to just totally different modes of operation. And like so balancing, you know, toggling between those things in the flow of games,

in the flow of a season, when a guy like Hardin has not been there, it's challenging. Like, this is hard stuff to just pick up on the fly against, you know, and potentially against the most competitive teams in the Eastern Conference in the playoffs. Can't wait to see it. If we're already at blind faith, if we're already going to the Sunday sessions being like, please save us, I think we're in a bad spot for the Sixers. All right. Let's flip now to a much more cheery situation with the Los Angeles Lakers.

This is fucking brutal. It's bleak. It's so bleak. Like, I get the shot in front. of it all and the rubbernecking and for all the other franchises and fans that have had to endure the Lakers over the past however many decades. But I can't watch this team anymore. It is just the saddest thing on the planet to watch a team just waste a very good LeBron James year. And then to watch LeBron James live a separate life when he's on Instagram, like just

touting his accomplishments when they're just getting blown the fuck off the floor. Like, holy shit, this is really, really bad and I can't watch this anymore. Let a guy live. Let him have his healthy work-life boundaries, you know? I just can't take it when he's like yelling at people to get a rebound.

And then he's like signing the basketball because he just, he passed some arbitrary like accomplishment. And it's just like whatever. I don't know. I feel like myself, I'm definitely getting older because I remember at the thick of like the heat situation.

I was like, get out of here. LeBron deserves to do whatever he wants and leave him alone. And now I'm like, fuck this guy. Like, what is he doing? Here's the thing. It's LeBron's fault that the team looks the way that it does. 100% he bears responsibility in the construction of this roster.

Because every time I watch them be unable to keep any freaking ball handler in front, get completely manhandled by every single wing with even the most decent amount of size and layup lines to the basket. I'm reminded that they got rid of their three best perimeter defenders voluntarily. They didn't lose them in free age. Well, Caruso they did, but just by being cheap.

They gave KCP away. They gave Kuzma away. they let Caruso walk for an extremely fair deal, right? Like, they put themselves in this position. However, at the same time, I was at Staples. When was that Tuesday? And LeBron is playing at a level that is so far past everybody else on his team. Like, what am I really?

Like, he's playing extremely well. But the people who are supposed to be supplementing that great play, stinking up the joint, and he absolutely rolled the red carpet out for them to walk into this situation. So it's like he's getting what he deserves at the end of the day. Yeah, there's a real, like, ESOP's fable quality to all of this. I feel like there's a lesson in here in what the Lakers have built for themselves. I have what I have a hard time parsing is like how fussy I should be getting about LeBron not getting back on defense, not boxing out, not trying on rebounds.

I mean, it's gotten egregious. The clips have made the social media rounds at this point. It's all very much there. LeBron's social media. No, no, everyone else is social media. It's all very much there, inarguable. But if you're the only guy doing anything offensively, if you're the only guy who's, you know, you've played center for large stretches of this season because your team didn't have anyone to play.

You did everything in those capacities and your team still stunk. I empathize a little bit with the feeling of where he finds himself now of looking into the abyss and feeling his soul slowly leaving his body and think, oh, well, isn't it great that I reached this milestone of career points? Take what joys you can from life, LeBron, is what I'm saying. Because, Rob, there was a layup that Westbrook shot. in that Toronto game, that looked more like a shot put than a layup.

He was two feet from the basket, and with his left hand, he just shot put it at the freaking backboard. Didn't touch rim on a layup. Your $45 million man did that in a professional NBA game. It's terrible. And the Raptors, you could,

first of all, they started the game 21 to 2, right? Like, 21 to 2, the Lakers scored 12 points in the first quarter. The Raptors only shot layups and not just threes, wide open threes, because help had to come or it was a loose ball where the Lakers couldn't get to corral the defensive rebound. They just beat them up, bloodied them, and bludging them. And there was points with like a rookie, Scotty Barnes, was just like, I'm more physical than everybody on this team,

if I don't have LeBron on me, I'm putting whoever's guarding me underneath the fucking rim. And he kept doing that. Then Preciousa Chua was doing it. Then it was just like, this is just bleak. It's so bad.

They are so bad defensively. In every single aspect, they can't keep guys in front. They get muscled at the rim. They can't corral rebounds. Like, all three phases of defense stink. Losing guys on cuts.

Like, not seeing man and ball. Like, everything that you've learned about defense when you were freaking six years old, you know, at Lou Carnaceka camp, these guys do none of it. It's so bad, man. It's so fucking bad. Well, I know we're trying to figure out,

like, the big questions that need to be sorted here. my only question is like if you're already in Los Angeles do you do 1, 2, 3, Cancun? Or is that just not necessary? It's assumed. It's assumed. Or at least Cabo. Yeah, 1, 2, 3, Cabo might work better.

You know, I always question myself when I put the Lakers on the budget. I'm like, how much more can we talk about this team? And then we get into it and I'm like, this is nice. You're a sick man. I'm enjoying myself more. Yeah. So the big question, I guess, if you really don't dig into it is, can the Lakers ultimately just fall ass backwards out of the play and all together?

They're currently, what, two and a half up on the trailblazers who, despite it all, despite the fact that they do not want to win a single game for the rest of the season are still in the thick of this, thick of this mighty play and race. The Pelicans haven't had C.J. McCollum and Brandon Ingram for recent games, although C.J. came back last night. So they've been losing a little bit lately. The spurs and the kings are on their heels. the Kings with Deere and Fox putting up like 30 and 40 every night and like no one just gives a shit because of the Kings. I guess the question, Rob, like, do you see a world where the Lakers actually don't make the play on play in where LeBron is just like in such fuck it mode that he wants to do the Kobe not passing the ball style where he's just like, you know what?

We're going to we're going to completely bottom out and this is how I prove my point. I can't imagine it. Yeah. If one of these teams were better, you know, if the if the Blazers were a little. bit better. Maybe I could see the possibility, but Portland's three and seven over its last 10. Not much better than the Lakers, frankly. So how they're going to make up the ground here, I don't see when one of these teams has LeBron James, even though that team is awful. I don't think it's going to happen, but I do think it is incredibly realistic that they are going to get into that playing game and just

get promptly bounce the hell out of there by the Pelicans. I think that is increasingly very realistic. Yeah. Do the playing stats count for the playoffs? Have we figured this out? I think it's in its own. No, yeah. It lives.

It's in purgatory. Yeah. There's no reason for LeBron to get to the playoffs then. You can't rack up stats. That was the best part of the Laker Raptors game was the blatant stat padding that LeBron was doing. He's just like, look, all I'm playing for is the scoring title at this point. And he was clearly all he cared about was scoring 30.

He's like, let me get to 30. Keep pace with Joel. All this other stuff of shit, I can give a fuck up. It was so obvious. It was so fun to watch. Let me say this quickly. Like, LeBron isn't the issue. It is just like wild sometimes just looking at his Instagram.

It's like it's getting to the point where it's starting to feel like Russia, where it's just like this is not what's happening in real life. It's a state-run media. This is propaganda, man. Oh, God. So perfect. All right. Let's move on to the rest of the last. In brighter news, Rob's Minnesota Timberwolves. Hey.

On a run here, eight and two over the past 10 since the All Star break. Best net rating in the NBA. Carl Towns also going for 60 points. Just what a lovely little story here. I think the question is now, like, how legit are the wolves? They're kind of pushing, they're knocking on the door of the nuggets and the Mavs and the Jazz in that four or five, six spot. they got what they have 70 games so they got 12 to go here.

Rob, do you think there's a chance that the wolves, the mighty wolves, can not even have to worry about the play and ignore it entirely and get into the regular Big Boy playoffs right off the bat? I mean, that would be phenomenal for them. I think what's difficult is their schedule is pretty tough.

And in particular, they have this upcoming stretch where it's Milwaukee, Dallas, Phoenix, Dallas, Boston, all in a row. That might be it right there. Well, we should know, we have a pretty good idea after that set of games, whether they're in the running for it or not. Because if they go one and four or something in that stretch,

I just don't think they have enough time to get to six. But the fact that it's on the table, incredible for the wolf season, for their ability to steady themselves after the occasional minor injuries for guys, little blips of a week or two where they aren't playing so well. In particular, their defense is back on track,

which has been huge. But the wolves are a good team, like period, end of sentence. And really what they've gotten really good at is just swatting. away any of these lesser teams they come up against. That's just always the mark of like a solid playoff team is can you just take care of business on the easy nights

of the schedule? And they've been killing those games. They've been absolutely really impeccable record against lesser teams. Are they going to make noise in the playoffs? I think they're a tough matchup. I think they can be an interesting opponent, but I'm not picking them necessarily to upset

anybody. I wouldn't say at this point. So the wolves right now currently are 11 in the NBA in defensive rating, they're tied with the jazz and directly behind Philadelphia. And so what that means is that defenses manned by Rudy Gobert and Joelle Embed

basically are playing as well as one man by Carl Anthony Towns. And I mentioned those guys because, look, as much as we love watching the little, like, guys, stop people, them in front, chopping their feet. We love watching perimeter defense. The best defense has happened because your big men protect the paint.

They're the most important people on that end of the floor. And if you was going to tell me that Carl Towns could man defenses, and again, it's because of the complimentary parts. Jared Vanderbilt, all those guys. But just the idea that Carl Towns could man an above average NBA defense, that would be on par with Rudy Gobert and Joelle and Bede, that makes all the freaking difference. So when it comes to a matchup problem in the playoffs,

if these guys are going to guard fools, and we know the problems that they present offensively for people because when you're big, shoots out to 30 feet, and you can't put Patrick Beverly on them like they did to Rudy Gobert, you know, like, that's a problem for teams to try to guard, right? And so, yeah, I think they could make some noise in the playoffs. And it's really cool to see the wolves finally break through in a way like, wow, like, wow, you guys have some level of competence.

After KG, that was like 25 years ago. Yeah, so right now they are two wins away from locking in their second winning season since 2005. Woo! Wild stat. But I think, was, I think like you are articulating a key plank in the Carl Anthony Towns all NBA case, which is getting stronger and stronger by the day, not only in the event that there's some like weird forward-sendor shenanigans where Embed or Yokic end up forward somehow, but even if we're just going straight centers and you have Yokic and Embed and you're

looking at that third team spot and it's probably Gober and Towns in the running for that. Give me Towns. Yeah. I mean, Towns has been been awesome offensively, as you're saying, equivalent. in individual performance, but team performance defensively, held up his end of the bargain in terms of what that team defense is doing and supposed to be. That's a pretty strong case. Yeah. He's offensive AD at this point, whereas AD is just a unicorn, absolute generational defender. Towns is that on offense. Like 57, 40, 82 since the All-Star break. Like, he's giant

Steph Curry. And it's incredible to watch. And it's, it's great to see them finally put together a competent team around him. because this was going to get pretty dicey pretty quickly. Like the other IAT comp here is like he's getting to, I believe, like, the second to last year on his max extension. And this is the season or the off season where you sign clutch, right? And so if he has something to look forward to, if he believes in a future with Anthony Edwards and DiAngelo Russell and all these parts around him, then you're less likely to call

up Rich Paul and be like, hey, like, what up? What's going on this summer? I love that designation. You have your contract year, and then the year before it is your clutch year. That's when you got to change reps. You got to see what's out there. Well, this question is a bit of a two-hander because the teams ahead of them are also not exactly just like dying as the season goes on here, if anything.

Well, the jazz may be a different story, but Mavericks are playing inspired basketball and the Denver Nuggets are hanging in there at 6th, and they could have some reinforcements here. Jamal Murray apparently assigned to the Grand Rapids Gold. What a name. their G League team and then MPJ. Like there's less hard information there, but there has been floated by the agency that he could be back sometime in March.

And so I asked Rob, like, could the Nuggets just completely subvert all of our expectations for this playoffs and all of a sudden be like the most dominant team coming out of the West? I don't know about the most dominant team, but at this point, even though there's some big theoretical elements

with those two guys, they're in the mix. They're in the mix to end somebody's season. You know, if you're one of these other pretty good Western Conference teams, the Nuggets could send you home early and not really have to stretch to do it. Like, Nicola Yokic has been that good. And if either Murray or MPJ comes back, and those guys are anything, like we don't really know what kind of form they would be in,

I think that could go a long way because their perimeter rotation has been stretched so thin already. Again, any slight talent bump, I think it puts the Nuggets in a pretty different class from where they are now, and they're already a really good team. You know what's so crazy is that before the Murray injuries and, of course, the MPJ injury, I felt like the Nuggets offensive unit was the most reliable and matchup independent unit in the NBA. Meaning, like, I don't care what defense you put in front of them. This team is going to generate quality looks. Doesn't matter.

Outside of probably maybe the clippers when Kauai is right and Paul George is right, This is the team I looked at as like, man, that unit is just so dominant and reliable and consistent and versatile in how they could attack you, right? Like, they could do the mismatch attacks. They could do the two-man game with Yokic and Jamal Murray, where these dudes are basically like communicating telepathically is so insane to watch. And then, of course, you know, like MPJ when he's right, he can do some really special things. So just based off of what they could do to teams offensively, you got to be worried about Murray and MPJ coming back if you're a Western Conference opponent.

Of course, how long is going to take for them to be even some semblance of what they've been at their best in terms of Jamal Murray and MPJ's performances? Who knows how long that would take for them to get to that place? But I always get excited about the nuggets when they have their full compliment of players because the way they attack people. And again, we know what Yokic does in the passing game. But my favorite shit is just watching him just bully guys. Like, you can't guard me one-on-one.

I'm just going to beat your ass up and I'm going to score over the top of you. Or in pick and pop, I shoot those rainbow threes over people. I just love watching the play on offense. So, yeah, I'll be watching that pretty closely. I think what we're zeroing in on is the difference between the wolves and teams like the Nuggets, where the Wolves are going to be a good, fun first round series,

going to be great to see them there. The Nuggets, they don't stop at the first round. This is a team that they advance. That's what they do. No, no Murray in the lineup. Before MPJ really got there and popped, doesn't really matter.

And this is the best version of Nicola Yokic we've ever seen yet. I would be, I would not want to be one of the top three seeds facing them in a potential first round series. That doesn't seem like a good time to me. Yeah, I think that's my question. Like, you wouldn't necessarily put them as the best,

just considering the unknown with all the injuries and whatnot and working those guys back in, right? Let's just say they have those two guys back and they are coming back from their injuries. Like, where are they on the danger rating? Like, if you're the sons, are they the last team you want to face because of that firepower?

Are you more scared of the Grizzlies, the warriors with Draymond back? Where do you guys put them? Well, I think if you're the son specifically, you've kind of had it in your mind at various stages of the season. Like, you know what the Warriors matchup looks like. You've played it.

You've seen it. You've worked through it. I feel like you have a good handle on it. The Grizzlies, they've at least seen in their full element. But the Nuggets, if you haven't seen Jamal Murray in a while, if you're not familiar with that dynamic,

I don't know that. I think the wild card element is what makes the Nugget so interesting in the danger meter per se. Are you going to give them the best odds to make it out of the West or that's championship odds? Obviously not.

But they're incredibly dangerous. Yeah, you know, obviously, I just still think having to deal with Steph Curry for a series has got to make people's head hurt, migraines, stomach ulcers. Like, that's got to be very stressful thinking about like, all right, what do I do with Steph in a series and Kerr as a coach with his adjustments? And, you know, and we mentioned this a few group chats ago. Steve Kerr becoming flexible, you know, like willing to do things that in the past

he didn't like to do, such as, you know, going to lineups that don't possess two plotting-ass bigs, right? I just think Golden State still because of the Steph and the Clay and the Draymond and the championship equity probably still provides the scariest stuff

for most teams. But yeah, if I'm looking at the nuggets and just Yokic just, He's just on another level right now in terms of his effectiveness on every single night, too. It's not like, he's just, he's like a metronome the way he just dominates every single night just consistently. Yeah, that's got to be something you worry about as well. But yeah, Steph breaks the danger meter, needless to say. That's not something you want to be game planning against.

Don't forget about Wiseman. Sure, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's on the meter somewhere. He's a human being who exists. He's big. Yeah. He's large.

Yeah. Got to watch out for that. Speaking of young players, let's briefly here flip to our guy, Scotty Barnes, that was saw in person. The rookie of the year race is getting pretty spicy here. Evan Mowbly considered the runaway favorite and might still be the clear-cut favorite here, but Barnes is on a bit of a heater to end the season. Cade Cunningham also playing particularly well here.

And so I guess the last question here we have to figure out is can Barnes or even Cade was push Mobley for the Rookie of the Year award. The narrative avalanche kind of might have got rolling too huge for Mobley to lose it at this point. Like, there was a point in the season where he felt like just head and shoulders above everybody else. But if you look at the stats in the last two months or so, he has not been head and shoulders better than Scottie Barnes particularly, right? Like, Cade had all that time. He missed for injury. and then he came back

and he wasn't immediately like very good at all. But now you're seeing the sort of foundation of what people saw on him and what made him the first pick in the draft when you talk about Kate. I just think Scotty Barnes, man, he's making such a compelling case. And he's so integral to what the raps do.

It's weird. Like, he's one of their, like, secondary ball handlers and offensive initiators. They put him on some of the best perimeter guys. eyes on defense. Like, he's already very integral to their attack and their approach at a rookie at his age.

It's kind of insane to see. And the craziest thing for me is that he was seen as this ultimate glue guy, right? Like, you kept hearing the Draymond comps about what he does defensively and, you know, he has a presence with the ball in his hands.

And so, like, he has a little bit of handle and has a little pop there, has a little off-the-dribble game pop. But, you know, the book on him was like he's not going to put the ball in the basket this season. That he's at the top of rookie scoring with everybody else is completely insane to me. And so for the just surprise factor, man, I'm probably leaning towards Scotty Barnes, man. He's been really good. And you brought up an interesting word wise, which is that he's been so integral to the Raptors.

And that's something I've been trying to figure out is like, Evan Mobley is clearly structural for the calves. He is a big reason their defense works. What Scottie Barnes brings to the table, it's valuable, it's definitely additive,

but to me it's like the improvising that's so valuable. It's like he's the guy who can, you can kick to late in the clock in the middle of the possession, he's bringing stuff to the table,

he's doing things. It's like, is that a structural quality or is that a guy who's adding things to your team in a way that's helpful, but not necessarily structural. I'm trying to parse that,

at least as far as what he's doing now, because long term, there's so much to work with with that skill set, with what he brings to the table. I don't know how all the pieces are going to fit between him and Pascal and Fred Van Fleet. Like, there's some complementary aspects and some overlapping ones, but that's where you want to be as a team,

is to have too many guys who can pass shoot and dribble and make things happen for you. And you see, the thing about it, though, when you think about overlapping or redundancies, where you worry about that is, dude who are obsessed with playing one way, right? Where it's like you might have two ball handlers or one-on-one scores, right?

And obviously only one person can do it at a time. And it's hard to convince somebody that you got to let the other guy do it maybe a bulk of the time. And then do this other thing that's going to contribute to wins for our team. Whereas with Scotty Barnes, I don't really worry about that. Even if he has some redundancies with Siakum, if you're like, Scotty, your job is going to be to set the hardest screens possible and roll as hard as you can and do some of this, you know, ancillary stuff, I don't think he's going to have a problem with that, which is why long term, like, when I think about redundancies, I think about interchangeability. I don't see it as a redundancy. I see it as now I got two guys who are willing to do some of this dirty work, this knife work, basically.

So yeah, man, I'm, I love Scotty Barnes. It's almost conventional in that they have two playmakers and so Barnes can be the secondary playmaker. They're just giants. It's almost like a Tom Hanks big thing going on where it's like, he's huge, but he's like, he can pass, you know? He's a kid. Was that the plot of that movie?

Yeah, exactly. The Raptors won the title in that series too. But yeah, Barnes has been on another level. I think the problem is So I think that the debate comes down to Barnes drives offense in a way that Mobley doesn't, right? He's like, he's the focal point of what they're doing a lot of times on the set

whereas Mobley is the recipient. The finisher, yeah. Yeah. On the other hand, though, like, I was watching Mobley the other night when he went out for 30 against the clippers and I'm like, this guy's really fucking good. And I think when you factor in the defensive part of that,

I still find it hard considering the entire body of work to go against Mobley at this point. Yeah, I think there's the conversation around Rookiee of the year, and I know we love adding a horse race element to all this, just as an NBA culture, we have to make it a horse race at some point in the season. And Mobley's been so far ahead of everybody that it's like, okay, now we throw in all these names.

What he's done defensively is special, like elite, all defense consideration special. That's not something you see from rookies pretty much ever. And the numbers are still there and the performance is still there in a way that the conversation around Rookie of the Year would lead you to believe he's dropped off in some capacity

and I just don't see that remotely. And that's where I would be more compelled to look at Barnes or look at Cade is like if Mowgli had hit the rookie wall and regressed over the last two months and those guys were surging at the right time and I mean, Cade is coming on like a freight train. He's been unbelievable in the last month in particular.

but we're still looking at two guys who had, Scottie Barnes started strong. Cade had an overwhelming first half of the season. Scotty Barnes has been good all throughout the year, but I think for most of it, solidly below where Mobley is, at least in terms of overall impact. And so it's like,

if he's tipping up now, and let's say for the sake of argument that Barnes is more valuable than Mobley has been over the last X weeks or one month or whatever, I'm just not sure that's enough to overwhelm the body of work for the season. Yeah, the calves are in the top.

five in the NBA in defense. And it's because of Mowgli and Jared Allen. Like, this guy's a fucking rookie. You know, like, straight up. Like, that's insane. Rookies usually get taken to the woodshed. They have, there's so much to learn, particularly when you're a big man, as far as how these guards are trying to attack you and pick and roll.

And how some of these bigs, when you're a young guy, can just muscle you. You don't have the physical mass and strength to stand. up against grown men. We say that all the time, but like, when you're 19 and somebody's 28, that's way older than you. That's way more physically mature than you, you know, and the fact that he's been able to not just hold his own, but anchor an elite unit in the NBA. You know, that's astonishing.

Probably playing out of what is going to be his natural position going forward. Like, he basically made way for Allen and tailored his game in order to what they wanted to do rather than really like allow the calves to empower him as a lot of rookies tend to do, especially at the top of the draft. So I think you got to give him credit for that too. But it'll be interesting. I mean, there's what, like 14 or so more games, one more month loud. So we'll see. Looking like a looking like a tough beat though for Franz Wagner and Josh Giddy, who may have been hoping for that third place spot. But, you know, who knew? Kate Cunningham, very good. Yeah. It turns out.

quickly wanted to check in on winning time because i have two culture podcasters with me and i just wanted someone to talk about this with um well we'll save the debate about jerry west but just generally wise how are you feeling about the series as you've now watched two episodes so look i i'm not crazy about the magic and his mother dynamic i don't really care about what was happening in East Lansing before he got to L.A. Like, I'm not terribly interested in that. I get that we have to sort of, you know, magic. Set up magic as a Tomcat.

Yeah. Set up Magic as a Tomcat. It set up magic who is struggling with an internal dialogue about the person his seven-day advance his mom raised him to be and who he's become as this, you know, cad, if you will. However, I just love them setting up, like, this is the genesis of the modern NBA. The NBA is we know it. You know, like, if you watch the NBA game from like 1975, it's not really recognizable

when you consider what's being played in 2022. But when you watch the Lakers of this era, of course, the game was way different back then, but you see it. Like, it's like, oh, this is the game that we now, know and love. And I love that the series is explaining to you, like Dr. Bus put together, like, he put this thing that deal together

with Scotch tape and bubble gum to keep that together. The sort of financial straits that the Lakers was in, the financial difficulties of the league, period. Like, this thing didn't have to continue on in the way that it did. I love that story that it's telling that this wasn't inevitable.

This thing could have freaking gone up in flames But for this guy who had a vision And you know the people that he empowered around him I love that story that's being told This is up a shit Jerry West wasn't that mean at work I don't give a fuck Who cares?

I mean I have to say I wasn't anticipating And maybe I should have been on some level Knowing kind of what the tone of the show is going to be I didn't think I was just going to have like a Jerry West sex scene plopped into my life But apparently that's where we are now. But now that you have, you're glad, right? No, no comment.

No, I think it's doing the natural docudrama kind of thing, which is it's not going to be 100% fair to its subjects all the time. It's not going to be 100% accurate. There's going to be some shortcuts taken adapting this, like, journalistic effort, which is Jeff Perlman's book, into a drama for television. And the product that they've made, it's not perfect. It's not great.

I think there's some adjustment as a viewer in terms of like the fourth wall breaking stuff. But it's fun. Like it's an entertaining endeavor in a way that we just haven't seen this kind of tone. And I honestly never would have expected this kind of tone for an NBA or NBA adjacent product. Like what they're able to show in terms of the realistic, again, quote unquote realistic,

but some of the behind the scenes chicanery of the NBA even then, that's kind of wild to see in a product that has the Lakers logo on it. Yeah. It's somehow weird that the tone is the best and the worst part of the show because it's very much Adam McKay production. And that's like the best part of it, that it's bringing life to a lot of these scenes and parts that probably otherwise wouldn't.

But then there's other parts where it's like, oh, it's maybe not in as safe of hands. It's been passed on to the showrunner and it's not in McKay's. And I'm just like, this is a little over the top. there's probably a little too much fourth wall breaking and like text being thrown on the screen. I'm just like, all right, this is a little much. But there's just something about it that's just like so captivating that you just keep watching. The big thing that I, and what I wanted to get into here is kind of Rob, what you were alluding to is like how faithful they really do need to be to the text.

Because it does seem like the portrayal of West in particular is ruffling some feathers. And I've kind of gone both ways on this where at first I was like, oh, this is a little weird that they're taking. so many liberties with this. But then, like, I read Mark Stein really take the show to Tass, and I was like, oh, this is kind of a lame take. I'm glad I didn't make that. But at the same time, it's also weird because McKay has kind of fallen into this period where, like, a lot of his other work is designed specifically to show people what's going on in

the world, to reveal some, like, broader truth about, like, what's happening. And then for them to betray the text and reality in such a stark way is almost, like running counter to that. So it's like, it's almost like he wants to reveal truths about the world, but not like actually anything that is true. If that makes sense. You have that thing going on where Jerry West is a person who's lived a full and rich and complicated life. That life is distilled in a particular way into this book and into other kind of biographical tales. And that distillation is distilled into one and a half episodes of flashback backstory. like very of our era,

oh, let me show you this person's childhood trauma and it will allude to all of their future behaviors. That's where I kind of get into and understand the idea of this portrayal as being a little cartoonish, but it's also a cartoonish show. Like, this is a cartoonish representation of that. Like, again, Jerry Bus's shirt

could not be more unbuttoned. You know, like, I'm seeing all the way straight down to John C. Riley's naval, all right? Know what product you're getting into, I would say, in terms of this stuff. And that's where it's crucial. It's like, if this becomes the defining record of who Jerry West was in the public eye in the way that, for example, like the social network has kind of become a dominant narrative on Mark Zuckerberg's upbringing and the creation of Facebook, that could be an issue.

That might be a bit much. But as like a riff on a time and a thing and something that's like flashy and playing into the tone of what they're trying to create, I'm okay with it. You know, I wouldn't say that Jerry stuff, Jerry West stuff has, like, sung on screen and been the best part of the show. But I don't really have, like, a huge objection. I think the hand-wringing is overdone because you can interpret it as Jerry was mean to people at work on the show. Like, like, I don't know. Like, that just seems like such a fucking, like, unnecessary thing to care about in the characterization.

To me, when, you know, when Vary talks about McKay's work trying to expose. some, you know, eternal truth about our lives in our society. Like, when I'm watching the show, I think sports fans tend to want to decouple partying, chasing women from greatness on the floor, on the court, on the playing field, as a coach, as a GM, as an owner. And when I watch the show, I think they're working in concert with one of Like, the reason why Magic wants to continue to be the greatest and wants to win over the city of L.A. It's because he gets to have sex with seven girls at a party, right?

Like, he knows that one thing is allowing the other to happen. Like, it's about the chase. It's, he's chasing that greatness because that greatness, it doesn't just manifest itself. Like, fans really think that players, all they should want is glory from. fans and nothing else and that should motivate how they play. It's like, no, I'm going to get rich. I'm going to be able to be intimate with the most beautiful women in the history of my life.

I'm going to achieve status. Be exalted as like some elite person in this society. And this city is like the perfect place to want to chase that in. And I think it's definitely driving Dr. Bus. It's driving Magic Johnson. It drives Norm Nixon. Like the The reason Norm Nixon has an ego about I'm the point guard, I'm the this.

Because again, people know me in the city. People embrace me in the city. Like those things work together. I think people think partying makes you a worse player. It's like, no, I'm a great player because I want to be the man at a lot of these parties. I do want to buy my mom a huge hot tub. I do want to do all of these things, right? And that's what the show to me is explaining.

And like, Jerry West to me is just a dude who's obsessed with winning, who's a obsessed with achievement, who's obsessed with this stuff in it, like, in a way that's kind of toxic, which, again, shit that sports fans fucking love. They love people who are insane psychopath weirdos about winning, you know, like, I don't know, I think there's multiple ways to view what the show was working with. I'm glad you brought up the LA of it all, too, though, because for me, that's one of the best part of it, right? Like, seeing 80s-era Los Angeles and the forum and all this stuff. It's LA porn. Like, not LA porn, but

like porn about LA. I guess enjoy, you know, go off with everyone else in the town, enjoy the flashback. Yeah, no, but I do want to circle back one thing that Rob said quickly. Like, the social network, I think, is a good thing to bring up here. Chris and Andy were talking about this on the

watch, and they were using the social network as a representation of how, like, art does not have to be beholden to the truth, right? That is a example where they had they veered away from the text and they just created something unto itself yeah but we are in this era now where like i think a lot of people are assuming that that is reality right and it was for mark succorberg and it is now for the lakers and jerry boss and jerry west is that that we live in a stupid society at a certain point i think i wonder if you if you have to

acknowledge the fact that that is how people are interpreting what you're doing and that like if that is the only thing that they're going to, do you feel a responsibility to be a little bit more closer to the actual truth rather than this higher truth than you're aspiring to? I think the interesting question for this time in 2020. As an artist yourself, Justin, when you're talking about, say, Ben Simmons, is it important to acknowledge that he bought bicycles for poor kids in Australia when talking about his horrible jump shot? Like, what are we doing here?

Like, is it everybody's job to give a full biographical accounting of, you know, every single fucking subject. That doesn't, that's not how this shit works. And if you think that's how it should, you're a fucking idiot. I'm sorry. Like, that's not what we do. We don't talk about. Like, when people write a book about Richard Nixon and they concentrate on what he did

as a president. And somebody says, well, back in the days, he did blah, blah, blah. And this was not a full thing of Richard Nixon. It's like, that's not how you get treated as prominent figures in society. You're not some person. me and plucked from obscurity, you know, working in a fucking factory and people are just killing you in some artistic depiction. Like, you're Jerry West. So when I write my big Waus book, I could pay you home.

You can take me down, Justin. You can take me down. It's fine. If I'm worthy, if you could sell a fucking book based on my life and you put the work in writing for me, take my ass down. These are the most exalted people in our fucking society. I'm supposed to Cry for Jerry West? Depiction on a fucking TV show? That's ridiculous. I mean, I will say, if you want the truth, like, read the book. Read it.

Read a single book. That part. Any book. And to the extent that, like, the fictionalizations that are happening in this show, to me, are small potatoes compared to, let's say, some of the liberties taken in, like, the last dance, for example. When you present something as documentary, as this is fact, this is, like, this is on the ground accounting of what happened

versus, again, John C. Riley talking into the camera as he comes out of the Playboy Mansion, you probably shouldn't take that stuff 100% at face value. That is a viewer issue, not a text issue. Yeah, just to be clear, I probably take more umbrage to

Jerry Buss being the white knight than I do with Jerry West's portrayal. But speaking of books, like if you do read Jerry West's book, it does get pretty dark in there, so maybe maybe put that at the top of the list. All right, maybe we'll check back on the show later on. This is technically within our purview.

Yeah, of course it is. How it is. We have a podcast. We could talk about stuff. All right. That's it for us this week. We'll be back next week. Same time, same place.

Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. We will see you then.