The Ringer NBA Show - The Future of the Young Suns and Key Players to Watch Out For | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 317)

Episode Date: October 9, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor react to the news of Ryan McDonough being ousted from the Phoenix Suns GM position (1:10), discuss the expectations for key players going into the 2018-19 season (24:35), and hash out an NFL argument regarding Drew Brees (56:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Want an edge over Vegas? Download BetQL, the app you need to get an advantage this season. Discover value bets, line movement, and find out what bets the public backs with BetQL. The best part, BetQL is free to download from your mobile device. Head to bettql.co and use the promo code NBA for your three-day trial. Give yourself an advantage over Vegas and download BetQL. That's bettql.com. And CO and promo code NBA.

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Climber, aka Kevin O'Conflict, aka Kevin O'Candyland, aka Kevin O'Clrify. Kevin! Chris, what up? How are you doing this morning? I'm doing great.

I'm going to save our NFL argument for the end of the podcast. Sounds good. Sounds good. But we do need to start with all of the. big NBA news and who would have thought that by yesterday morning, Monday morning, there was big NBA news that dropped the first one out of absolutely nowhere was that Ryan McDonough of your beloved Phoenix Suns has been ousted eight days before the season begins. And now obviously a week from today will be the first games.

When you first heard the news that Ryan McDonough was relieved of his duties running the Phoenix Suns, you thought what? The timing was shocking. I mean, I knew he was on the hot seat for sure. And I think the moves that they made this summer, Chris, were kind of an indication that there was pressure from ownership for McDonough and the front office to move towards winning. Like, it's win time now. You know, the additions that they made with Ryan Anderson, Trevor Arisa, all suggested that they're going to push for that seven or eight seat. That it's, you know, the rebuild is over. It's to win, right? And I'm talking to executives around the league,

nobody knows for sure why he was fired right now at this moment, and I'm sure we'll find out more as time passes. But the theory is that maybe there was a mandate for the front office to find a point guard by a certain date, or there could have been a disagreement on whether to do a move or not for a certain point guard. And look, there's been a lot of conversation about their need for a point guard. and they do need one, right? Harrison's their starter.

Ellie Yacobo, who I like a lot is an unproven backup point guard. But Devin Booker is still going to be the guy that's going to be handling the ball a lot in that offense. And I think Sarver, I think it's very unusual timing to do this now, Chris. It's very unusual to do it now. And I would have waited if I were Sarver, but I'm not Robert Sarver. Yeah, and it strikes me that Ryan McDonough, I think, has done a very good job of being rather media-friendly over the years because it was, I felt like a lot of the attention went to Sarver, who is admittedly, by most NBA standards, like has been a bad owner, right? And then immediately it comes out

how much he is involved in the day to day. So that's what makes it hard. If you are telling me that Robert Sarver is more involved than any other NBA owner in the day to day decisions, it then becomes a little bit difficult to decipher between, okay, what do you put on McDonough then? Because objectively, his record is terrible. I mean, he's had some big misses. I mean, he blew it in the draft. He blew it with Lynn. He blew it with Marquis Chris.

I know you still are holding out hope for Bender. But it looks like he blew it. Yeah, it looks like he blew it there. That's three hard picks. The other thing is he took over that team. And I went back and looked. That's one of the most unbelievable seasons. was that first year that he was there,

that 48 win team that was right there in the playoff mix with Jeff Hornacex team, that first year that had, and you look back, there's a lot of guys that rotation players on good teams, playoff teams, Barbosa, Bledso, Droghitch,

you know, even their later guys, Channing Fry and Gerald Green, both Morris twins. PJ Tucker? I mean, and it was like so many good things. that I felt like the guy did then ended up being screwed up.

I mean, you attain Isaiah Thomas for virtually nothing. And like, I know he has been quoted, he has been quoted as saying if there was a move I could take back. But I mean, he brought in somehow he ends up with Isaiah Thomas. He ends up with Gorin Dragich,

who made the All-Star team last year, and Thomas, who had one of the great offensive seasons of all time, a few years ago. And Bledsoe, he ends up out of those three, with Bletso, and then that becomes a disaster. And like now it's possible he got fired for not having a point guard.

It's like, what in the hell? Yeah. Like, you're not that far more than that for sure. It's definitely more than that, right? It's a history of things. McDonagh had this job for five years, right? It's not like he was hired one year ago. There's been a lot of time to evaluate him.

And, you know, to your point, Chris, about some of the mistakes with the draft and the trades, it's also just been guys wanting out. Some of those guys wanted out, there's tension between that trio of point guards, Drogrich Bletsow and Thomas. I believe at one point, Marquief Morris wanted out. In any case, Chris,

I can understand the firing. It's just the timing that's odd, especially with the summer that I felt like they had a pretty solid summer. This was better than... I mean, obviously I didn't like the trade, the Ryan Anderson deal, but, I mean, the other thing was,

you remember every offseason, it was like the sons are going to take a run at Carmelo Anthony. The sons might be the landing spot for the Marcus Aldridge. The sons are a dark horse for LeBron James. It was like, what? They had a meeting scheduled with Blake Griffin. Yeah, it was always they've got a shot at getting somebody and then they never got anybody, right? And then they made these trades, you know, like I mentioned, the Isaiah Thomas one.

I mean, you end up with Marcus Thornton, right? And a first round pick that ended up being Scall Libisier. you you ended like one of the deals they had they had drafted uh bogdan bogdanovic right yeah but looks like he's a good player some of these deals though these are misses chris and bender you know but you every team misses picks and like this isn't in defense of the sons it's it's really just in defense of just general managing in general it's not easy to draft like they've had hits getting devon booker outside of the top 10 to me lea Jacobo unproven, but to me, he's a potential steal at 31. They've had some hits.

Josh Jackson is not bad. The way he ended last season, T.J. Warren, another real quality scoring option off the bench. And we'll see how the McHale Bridges for Zaire Smith and the future pick deal works out. But McHale Bridge is another person who could be a three-and-D option as part, who really fits their young core. They have young talent. Like, that's why I'm so high on their future.

I still like their future. McDonough, it doesn't matter of James Jones, Ryan McDonough, David Griffin, Kevin McHale, it doesn't matter who's the GM. I like their players. I like a lot of their young talent on the team. He did a solid job, even though he made some critical mistakes, obviously, which is why he's gone. And not do a solid job. He did a solid job getting some guys like Devin Booker, DeAndre Aiton, Josh Jackson, T.J. Warren. There's some solid young talent on that team in addition to some critical mistakes, obviously.

So when I say solid, I'm saying like 1 to 10, it's like a 5. You know what I mean? So it's pretty average. He took over a team that ended up winning 48 games and then they went 39, 23, 24, 21. You should have good players. You and I both know that team overachieved that 48 win team. That's fine, but they still had a lot of players on that team. And then the next year you end up with Isaiah Thomas.

This is literally the great case study against not blowing it up. It is. They had players. You know what you're going to do? you're going to try to go and augment, listen. They would never blow it up team. You can trade for Booker. You can trade for him like in terms of the 13th pick.

You could have traded for the pick that you got worn in. So you didn't have to lose a million games to get those guys. And those are your two best picks. You lost a million games and ended up getting Alex Lynn and Marquis Chris and Dragon Bender. And then weren't even, and you hadn't even flipped those for anything. Now, Aitn't might work out for sure, right? Like it's better now. Now that they got, they finally got the number one pick.

But, I mean, you can't blow all the, like, you lose all those games to get those high picks, and he blew him. All three of those, I mean, those are pathetic. You've got nothing to show for it. Alex Lynn, Marquise, Chris, and Dragon Bender. And so that's why you lose, right? The idea is you lose. If those lottery balls fall a little bit differently, they end up with Simmons or Ingram or Brown. But they don't.

Yeah, they didn't. And so they took Bender, one of the young. players in the draft who I like a lot, a lot of people liked a lot, and who is really disappointed and looks like he sucks. He looks like he really sucks. But the pick was not a bad idea. Even the Marquis pick, the Marquis Chris trade, I was never a big fan of Marquis Chris. I think I had him 10th or 11th on my board. To me, he was the biggest home run swing in the draft. And that's what they did. They took a home run swing. And some of the guys that went after him in that draft, not a lot of guys that you're getting super excited about. It was a

calculated risk. They traded the Papayana's pick and the Scalavissier pick, as you said, with Bogdan Bogdanovich. It looks like a kind of a wash for both teams where it might not work out. Bogdanovich is the best player, but at the time of the deal, I'm not sure Sacramento is viewing him as the crown jewel of the trade, is my point. Bogdanovich's guy I liked in the draft, and he's been cool to watch him. I look and I see what he took over, and I see a lot of guys that have been rotation players on playoff teams. A lot of rotation players on

playoff teams and now what they have is one of the youngest best stars in the league in Devin Booker. DeAndre Aiton, who could be one of the best big men for the next decade. They have some young talent on their team now that can actually push for a championship instead of being a middling seven, eight seed

that that's what they were with all their role player talent. Now they have some star talent in their organization. No, you might have been able to get a star if you weren't a piece of shit for three years. You, we talk about the free agency. These free agents don't want to go to crap team.

I disagree. I think the fact that someone like a Lamarcus Alder took a meeting, the fact that a Blake Griffin had a scheduled meeting. Yeah, they took. Who cares? Look, okay, here's the, here's the thing. I've been thinking about this. You tell me, what big free agents?

Let me say this, Chris. Please. I've been thinking about this. What happens when all those max cap slots get filled up, like in the big cities? L.A. Katie goes to New York. Brooklyn signs a guy, right? What happens when the max slots are filled for those big cities?

Where old players are going to want to go? They're going to probably go on a places either that are close proximity to those cities or they're going to want to stay where they are. All right. You tell me the terrible. Phoenix has shown to be a team that players are willing to take meetings. Great. They can take all the meetings they want.

What's the last big-time player that signed with a rat team? If you want to consider LeBron, they're not going to be a rat team because they have David Booker and DeAndre Aiton. They're going to be actually a quality team that it will be appealing to players. But I'm saying you look over the course of the, you have to win.

Players want to win. Yeah, the winning is coming, dude. The winning is coming. Oh, God. You said that three years ago. No, I did. Yeah. I didn't say it three years ago for what it's worth.

When is it? When is it coming? We didn't even know each other three years ago. When is it? When is it coming? They're winning team this year? No. Oh, so what next year?

They're going to be one of those. Their winning team next year? You tell me, when? Chris. When are they a winning team? When are they winning team? I think next season is probably, in my opinion, that should be the goal, winning next year. Okay.

So that will be six years from the last time that they were winning team. And by the way, in terms of players going to rat teams, Chris, LeBron James went to the Lakers. I said that. I said, unless you want to. Count LeBron. Yeah. Which that is obviously because he wanted to be in Los Angeles. They could have had anybody on that team.

You know, it is just L.A. But if L.A. really had nothing on their roster, like when I say a rat team, I mean it almost sarcastically because they have Brennan Ingram, Lanzabal, Josh Hart, a lot of young talent on that team and cap flexibility moving forward. That to me is the appeal of Phoenix to a lesser extent because Devin Booker's already paid $27 million next year. So one of those max slots is already filled. and there's a couple other, like, T.J. Warren's making around 10.

They've less cap flexibility moving forward, but they still can add that other star player that they would hope, you know, compliments Devin Booker and DeAndre Aiton moving forward. There's some appeal on their roster. I see teams around the league that didn't necessarily have to bottom out in order to attain star power. There's also, we've been through this so many times. We've argued with us endlessly.

Almost every team that's wanted to change. championship has had a top draft pick on their team. Who's Utah star, Kev? It's Donovan Mitchell. Right. And Rudy Gover. They didn't have to win 21 games to get it. Yeah, you're right.

So for some teams that works out. For some teams that works out. All right. So I'm putting you down right now next season, not this season, of course. Next season, the Sons will be a winning team. I mean, that's not saying much. They will have a winning record, which will be great six years later. I don't know if I go that far.

I can't predict what they're going to. going to do next summer. I think when you factor in the constant progress of Devin Booker each season, when you factor in DeAndre Aiton into his second season, I mean, we're talking like 2019-20 season right now. But when you factor in all that, I think they could certainly be quite a fun competitive team. But in the Western Conference, who knows, man, that's the variable where it's tough to really project the head. It's loaded in the West. And right now, Phoenix is one of the two teams and Sacramento that don't have a chance at the playoffs this year, in my opinion. I think if you've got a team that is a good team, this is exactly like what happened with Utah a couple years ago,

if you got a team that's a good team and they had a pretty good team, and you can augment it, you can move it. By the way, they had a huge star in Isaiah Thomas, which they blew. They had a huge star. Phoenix were talking. He wasn't a star yet. But they blew that. You see the talent that the kid ended up having.

the kid was, you know, he's in the, I'm not sure anybody blew it. The situation just, oh, I'm serious. If you've got Isaiah Thomas and you move him and get nothing. They screwed up the trade, obviously, but I thought you meant the situation itself. If you have Isaiah Thomas just didn't click. And by the way, I love Isaiah Thomas, but he hasn't necessarily been the easiest guy for a lot of his teammates sometimes, especially in that situation. How out of those three do you end up with Bledsoe? It's malpractice.

It's literally malpractice. Bledso at the time is 24 years old, I want to say, coming off his impressive early career with the Clippers. That's why you end up with Bledso because he's a young two-way point guard. Isaiah Thomas was not a high-efficiency 29 point-per-game scorer yet, and Drogich, good player, of course, but Bledso at the time, 24-year-old two-way point guard. Yeah, I feel like he was the right guy to keep at the moment.

Oh, for God. sakes. Isaiah Thomas became an all-NBA player and Drag-Iitch is an all-star. Keep Bledso? What we're talking about, dude, you can't revise history here. At the time, Eric Bledso was viewed as. At the time, it was stupid. The trades were still.

Oh, forget it. No, the whole thing was stupid. Kevin, you're defending keeping Eric Bledso and losing Dragich and freaking Isaiah Thomas, one of which was all-N-BIA and the other one's an all-star. Yeah, because we're four years. years in the future now. And we know this. At the time they were both better than Bledsoe. At the time they were. They've always been better than Bledso. What? That team won 39 games. And they had a bunch of real players on that team, a team that, by the way, a free agent may say, well, they just won 39 games.

I could take them over the top. And you could have won by year three if you're McDonough. Instead, you just ran the thing dead into the ground and took a bunch of bums in the top 10 picks. All right. I can't believe we're talking about this, but at the time, Isaiah Thomas, Sixth Man, he's a Sixth Man,

undersized Sixth Man, who doesn't play a lick of defense, and a guy who was unhappy because he wasn't getting enough touches, are you going to keep that guy who's not happy in his situation, or are you going to keep Eric Bloodsoe, who at the time,

is 24 years old, high intensity two-way point guard that if you're projecting ahead, you assume more progress on the offensive into the floor, and there has been progress. He's gotten better as a pick and roll ball handler, gotten better as a passer. He hasn't improved like anybody would have hoped

as a score, but the passing has improved. Are you going to keep that guy or are you going to keep the guy who's unhappy and doesn't play any defense? Well, that talent evaluation is the job, and he chose Bledsoe and Thomas was mad and Drogate was mad.

And I'm saying, of those three guys, he chose wrong. And in fact, he had a, he had a two out of three chance and still blew it. I think we're arguing different things right now because obviously he was wrong. But what I'm saying is it's keeping, you act like keeping Bletso was dumb. It wasn't dumb. Bletso was a valuable asset at the time, very valuable. I don't know what to say.

I seriously don't know what to say. You have three point cards. You have three point cards at the time. Three point cards. and one of them is Isaiah Thomas and one of them was very unhappy and one so was drag it's you know that's how bad you screwed up the whole thing and even this is the craziest thing even Ryan McDonough says if there's one move I could take

no kidding no kidding that's the one move you would take back we're arguing different things right now Chris what I'm saying is Eric Blitz was a really valuable player a time. That's it. And your initial stance in the argument was that keeping Bletso was dumb. I'm saying, no, keeping Bletso was not dumb. The trades themselves, which are a separate thing, were dumb, especially the Isaiah Thomas trade. That was the bad one. The Drogich one, it wasn't, it definitely wasn't good. But you know what? You're right. Bletsoe obviously led them to such

tremendous success that that proves that Bledsoe was the right move. Oh, so now, now the results are what matter. Now they're added... front of tremendous success. What did Bledsoe do for them? Not a lot. It hasn't worked out for that team at all. Okay. And I believe I saw Drogich in the playoffs and on the All-Star team,

and I believe I saw Isaiah Thomas put up one of the top five offensive seasons in NBA history. We're not even on the same page right now, Chris. I don't know. I mean, it sounds to me like you love Eric Bliss. You're doing like, this is what you do. You do the process thing. At the time, it was the right move to make.

at the time it was right to take Marquis Chris. Well, like, dude, you don't get credit for... For what it's worth. I'm not saying the Chris move is right. I'd say it was a calculated risk. That's all. I would assume that they recognized it as a significant risk, too. Just as everybody in the NBA thought Chris is like a boomer bust prospect.

Like, I think everybody was afraid of drafting Marquis Chris for that reason. And we're seeing the bus side because he's really not that good. He's still really young. He could end up solid. he's not that good. And neither is Bender. I look at a guy that took over something that was not hard to make a winner and somehow turned it into a colossal loser.

Nobody expected that team to win 48 games. I agree with you. And I still think Jeff Hornacek's a good coach. I do. I think he is, you know, two bad franchises of which he's coached with. I don't hold the Knicks thing against him. The same way I didn't hold it against Mike Dantony, right? It was Mike Dantone all of a sudden a bad coach

because he didn't win with the Knicks. I mean, it's been pretty hard to win with the Knicks. I don't think anybody's done it in a long time. All I say is this, Chris. I just think I'm going to be proven right about this Phoenix Sun's team. I think they have a lot of young talent, and they're going to be pretty solid moving forward. I hope we are still doing the show in 2021.

Guess who they also, guess who else they added this summer? Because that's when you could possibly be right. He's in 2020. Guess who else they added this summer, Chris? One of our first little jokes in the show from two years ago. they added Rashon Holmes. Yeah.

Oh my God. Now you really love him. Oh, yeah. Rashon Holmes. Yeah. I say this. I do. I still got Josh Jackson stock.

I do. I think Jackson's going to be. I do. I feel like you secretly like their team. No, I like Josh Jackson. You like the guy you can't shoot well. I tell you the two guys I like on it.

The two guys I like the mode that I'd want are Jackson and Warren. Yeah, the two guys who can't shoot threes. Yeah. Your old school basketball ways are showing. No, I don't, again, are you, are you production? Do you do it? Again, I don't mind if you can't do it as long as you don't do it. Josh Jackson, this preseason, scary.

Three of 18 from three. Oh, scary. That's terrifying, I'll tell you. Terrifying? It's scary. Jackson is going to be the type of player who you're going to have to turn him into more of a playmaker and take advantage of that skill that he has, which is underrated, in my opinion, is passing. It's still very young.

Yeah. He's still very young. He's still very young. And he's never shot well at any level of his life. I'd be worried about Jackson's shooting ability. You're going to need a floor spacer alongside Booker and Aiton and Jackson's not it. No, yeah, no. I am, I will cop to this. I am one that watches both ends of the court.

Those guys are both like foxhole guys to me. Those guys both play hard all the time and I win more than I lose if I've got more guys like that. Warren's, I like Warren a lot. He's a great scorer. I mean, he's a great scorer. He's a great scorer. He's a different player than Josh Jackson. Jackson is a, he can be a solid playmaker. Warren is just a pure scorer, right?

Mid-range floaters, mid-range pull-ups. Man, I wish, I really wish Warren could extend his range to three because he would get buckets. Well, and the crazy thing is, and this is, you can go back and look, I was literally at Josh Jackson's career high. the night I saw I mean the night the one of the nights I've seen him in person over the course of the first couple years he was the best player on the court by like such a wide margin

it was ridiculous he was unbelievable he had 30 something in the game I mean anybody could go look at up he was freakishly awesome he's going to the line he was doing everything and so you know that obviously it hasn't did you say Jackson yeah yeah yeah Jackson look Jackson's going to be

a player for a while because of his defense passing. He can score. It's just a matter of, can he score efficiently? I've always kind of coveted Warren, too. I just like him. I think he's different than most guys in the NBA.

He's a spark plug score at the forward spot. I like, I like guys that are different. He's awkward. He does a lot of things that you don't see a lot. All right, let's get to some of the news and notes over the course of the past week. So speaking of seeing teams,

I've seen a couple since we've last spoke. I saw the Pacers, and I actually tweeted this out. And upon that, I went to go look up, like, see if there were any articles about the Sabonis kid, DeMontas Sabonis, because I saw him in person. And the second I saw him, I was like, holy macro. I mean, Kevin, I am telling you, this guy is shredded, not like he looks to be in good shape. Like, he is shredded and was an absolute mammoth on the boards, which has not been his calling card necessarily. and he looks crazy nimble.

And so I went to look it up to see if anybody had written about it. And I found a couple different articles where he had gone and worked out a lot with Miles Turner, who has revamped his body in a major way the last couple of years. And like he's doing yoga and lifting weights and whatever. And at one point during one of the articles, there was like a tweet, I suppose, that Miles Turner had put up of both of them like working out. And both of them are like, I mean, they look like they're going to frigging compete in Mr. Olympia or something.

But the subonis thing, I think, is something to really monitor because he obviously was good for them last year. It's not like he was some kind of in terrible shape, but there's a clear dedication to getting better and better. And seeing him, I was mega impressed. I mean, in the preseason, I think he's second in rebounding to Enos Canter. I've always liked him certainly coming out of college just because he was so skilled. But he's worth monitoring. I would not be surprised if Subonis is a guy that could take a leap this year. I remember talking to my old boss.

I used to work for a sports psychology company. Eric We talked about Sabonis before the draft. And I remember him saying to me like Subonis, he could be really special. He's going to meet the steal of the drafts, right? You know, and Sabonis fell to the 11th pick where the Pacers traded for him after the magic took him. Yeah, he's made significant progress, Chris. I think, you know, Subonis was a sensational rebounder at the college level. That dude physically boxes out.

Yeah, he's instinctual. And that shows in other areas of his game, too. I think as his body has developed, it's allowed him to be a better rebounder. It's allowed him to be a better defender with NBA conditioning, strength and conditioning. He's gotten better on switches. He always showed the ability to move laterally. But I think he's gotten a lot better at that.

He's learning about the intricacies of defense. Sabonis is maybe, maybe, I don't know, I don't know this for sure, but he might be a better prospect than Miles Turner, the guy who's starting right now. Well, it's interesting because they've talked about being able to play them together. Now, Turner didn't play in the game that I saw, but he, when you talk about being fleet of foot, you know, I think he struck people as maybe a heavy-footed guy when he was coming into the league. And that's the big difference. You see these guys and how much more nimble they become. it happened with Mark Gassall who ended up becoming an all-star and defensive player of the year. We saw that transformation with Kevin Love.

So there have been big guys that have done it. And it is also the thing that you have expressed and many have expressed in why doesn't, you know, you wish Yokic would do it. Right? Because it could go. You're right? Like that you wish that Yokic would come back. And next thing you know, he looks, and maybe he will at some point. I don't know.

He's already gotten his money. So that's usually when it happens. happens right when it's coming down the pike on money time that maybe you decide that oh man there's a hundred million dollars on the line maybe i'll you know become the best version of myself uh and i know you've said that about yokech before for sure i mean subonis was never never like chubby or anything like that it was just about shaping his body you know with him in college like he showed signs of being able to switch when he was at gonzaga uh but you're right like you know sometimes he was a little bit heavy foot and i and i was

worried about what Subonis, my worry was if he's not a shoplucker, which he's not, he's going to have to be able to switch or become an elite positional defender. And he's always had good intangibles on the defensive end of the floor. He's always been a smart player. So he always had that and that's only gotten better. But he's also gotten better at switching. In addition to being a potentially elite rebounder, he's going to at least be a plus for you on the defensive end.

not going to hurt you. And so when you factor in his offense, his pick and roll, his screening, when he crashes the boards, his passing to me is a little bit underrated. He's not like his father as a passer, but he's a solid passer. Sabonis just does a lot. He does a lot of good things. You know, the other thing that I was thinking about recently, Kev, was that trade. I mean, you look up in Oladipo is a guy that's totally revamped his body and became one of the best shooting guards in the NBA. You think back to that trade, and it's like, Man, this could be one of those rare, massively beneficial to both franchises, trades, especially if Sabonis becomes even better as time goes on. The other thing is for a team that has won as much as Oklahoma City has over the years, I'll be dim.

They nail the draft more often than not. I mean, if Sabonis becomes this really big player, I mean, that's a guy that they took at 11, much like they did, you know, Stephen Adams was kind of an eyebrow. razor at the time. And Adams has become one of the, you know, most solid centers in the league, for sure. But it would also speak to the fact that they did draft the kid, right, at

Oklahoma City, which enabled them to be able to make that trade for Paul George. But the trade's going to look a lot different if Sabonis becomes a big time player too. For sure. You know, it's similar to our son's conversation. Like, at the time of the trade, like, to me, it made sense to keep

Bledso at the time of the trade. And I was dead ass wrong about it. I didn't like the trade for Indiana, and that was kind of a learning experience for me looking back at that, because Subonis was a guy I liked on the draft, and after one year in Oklahoma City where he was essentially a spot-up shooter that wasn't that good defensively, I soured on him. For Victor Oladipo was a little different, it was four years,

and he plateaued, but again, it was a type of thing where there's so many other factors in player evaluation and player development For Subonis, a lot of it was role, it was opportunity, the situation he was in where he was put into a spot-up shooting role that didn't allow him to do all the other things that he does well for Oladipo. It was about just leveling up his training, what he did last summer and again this summer. And look, man, that deal is working out beautifully for Indiana and myself and a lot of other people were just dead wrong about it. Well, and the Sabonis thing, you know, he took a massive amount percentage of his shots from three. in Oklahoma City. And that was just wrong.

About a third of shots. Yeah, it's just wrong. I mean, it goes back, it goes back to the Warren. Yeah, it is. It goes back to the Warren thing. I don't mind. If you're efficient doing the other.

I disagree. If you're efficient doing the other, well, clearly, look, they used him massively different in Indiana, and he was a much more successful player in Indiana. How about, how about accentuating what a guy does really well? How about that?

Sure. Okay. But, Sabon, bonus is a career, 32.7% three-point shooter, which is the equivalent of 0.981 points per shot, which would mean you need to shoot 49% from 2 for it to have the same value as it does from 3. And what does he shoot from 2, Kev? Definitely not 49%. And I mean from deep mid-range on jumpers.

Definitely not 49%. Well, it's 2. percentage is 52. Yeah, but that includes like at-rim shots. What? I mean, he shot 35% from 3 on 0.5 attempts last year. He was doing more of what he is good at. That's my point. Oh, yeah.

You want to get him more at rim shots, but I mean, like, shooting threes is not inherently bad. You want him shooting more threes and less mid-range jumpers, and he shot a lot of mid-range jumpers last season for Indiana, which is one of the things that I hope they change moving forward. Less mid-range jumpers and more three-point jumpers. So I just pulled up the stats right here, Chris. he shot 36.8% on mid-range jumpers, on 136 mid-range jumpers, which is...

Very low amount. It's just not good, though, but it's compared to... That's a low. It's not like he's taking a lot. You play 82 games? Yeah, compared to only 37-3s, though. That should be inverted the other way. Though it led to much more success for him.

Oh, it can lead to even more success for him and for the team. Well, all I know is he averaged half a offensive rebound in Oklahoma City, and he averaged over two. in Indiana. I'd rather have the big guy by the basket, but I know we disagree on that. You love the big guys that are allergic to the pain. Well, it's also different team philosophy. This is a general statement, not about sub bonus, but that's a tough part about looking at offensive rebounding numbers because some teams crash the boards and have their player attack for offensive boards. Others say, get back on defense because we want to prevent transition offense. It's tough to gauge that. Well, he was, he took a lot less threes and was a much more efficient player last year. than he was in Oklahoma City. That's all I'd say. And I think this year,

I think he's got a chance to be fantastic after seeing him up close and personal. The other team I saw was Atlanta. And that's going to be the worst team in the league. They are. Do you think there's anybody else that could even fight with them to be the worst team?

Probably not. They're bad. And I think, yeah, I think, I think it is, we talk about opportunity and fit. I think it's a, I think this is, is not going to be good for Troy Young. I don't.

Him getting to, because I don't, I think it's going to, you're going to be able to build bad habits by being on a team that loses excessively and the offense, like the usage rate becoming really high and whatever, because we,

you know, you and I know I listen to draft class all the time. You were not 100% sold on Young by any means. Not at all. I know you're not. And so, and one of the concerns that when I talk to talent the evaluators around the league was, are you going to turn the whole offense over to him?

Because that's what it was at Oklahoma. And you kind of watch that team and in the absence of really anybody else. I mean, because it's not like Baysmore. I mean, I kind of feel there's a couple players I like. I think Prince is a dog. I like John Collins. He's got some talent. But I just don't think that being able to go, you know, six for 24 on a random

night is the best way for him to enter the NBA. Whatever. Yeah, you want to suck up here, Atlanta. You want to blow. You want another top pick. You want to chance it. The R.J. Barrett type prospects in next year's draft. You want to suck.

You want to have an opportunity to take the necessary little. Cam Reddish. I'm talking about him and his development as a plate. I know. And how it could hurt. It could hurt, but it could also be like, oh, great, you're throwing this guy into the fire and he's going to fail, fail, fail time and time again. that failure could help him develop as a player and learn from his mistakes.

It could go that way too. I just think that there's a lot of guys that are like that that end up, that it becomes very hard to deal with as the years go on because what they do, what they get used to is playing 30 something, 35 minutes a game, getting to take whatever shot they want. And that that's, that's become what they used to and then they're not able to do it within a winning context. Isn't that what you want Trey Young to be though, like eventually as a guy who does play 35 minutes a game for a year and does, you know, carry the load at the end of games, it becomes

your go-to-end to score, your primary playmaker. That's what you want Trey Young to be. And I think it all depends on him ultimately, you know, mentally can he handle this failure that he's going to experience in the amount of defensive attention. Like a lot of times he's going to have the opponent's best defender on him. And he's going to struggle. He's going to have a lot of bad games. How much can he battle through that adversity, say mentally strong moving forward and build from mistakes. That's what I'm looking forward to to from seeing from Trey Young will he succeed? I don't know. There's there's flaws in his game for sure, Chris. No doubt about it. I think it's just very, very hard to be on an excessively bad

team at the beginning. You know, and there's a kid, there's a guy, I don't want to say kid because he's an adult now. But, you know, I was talking, I interviewed Marshawn Brooks the other day. Marshawn Brooks was huge, he was a huge college score, right? Came to the NBA. And I asked him about, you know, he has been he's been the best player in China for some time now, came over at the end of the season, and was scoring like crazy for a terrible team in the Grizzles. So I asked Marciaum Brooks, you know,

you know, you see all these, oh, what's that thing? Players Tribune, right? You know, that letter to my former self. Yeah. Like, what would you write? And he said,

when I was young, I came out, right? He was a big time score. And he was drafted pretty high. And he said, and I, you know, I went to the Nets.

And I played 38. minutes a night and I was able to shoot any shot I wanted and all that kind of stuff. And he said, and then the next year, we moved to Brooklyn and the team, like, had to be good. And they made all these moves. And then they signed Joe Johnson. And Joe Johnson now becomes, and there were nights where I'd play 10 minutes, nights that I'd play zero minutes in and out of the lineup, right? And my, and what I was trained was like, I can do, you know, I'm playing every single night.

And I'm a real NBA player. And he's like, and I handled it so badly. You know, it destroyed me. And next thing you know, right? Like a guy that that's what I'm, that's the only, and maybe that's in my head. But I think about the impact that that can have on players and the fact that you've got this free reign on horrible teams,

but then when it's winning time, you're not able to handle it necessarily. The difference is Marshawn Brooks sucks. Tray Young doesn't. That's not true. Now? It kind of is true. Right now?

Marshawn Brooks was the 25th pick in the drive. really just a score and that's about it. Trey Young, I tweeted this the other day and people got angry at me. It had the country in scoring, by the way. Just a score. And Trey Young, by the way, is more than just a score. He's a really, really a good playmaker. I think his playmaking right now at this stage might be better than a shooting.

And I tweeted every day and people were flipped out at me. It's like, no, well, this passing's really good. His shooting, you know, we'll see how it develops off the dribble over time. but Trayon can do a handful of things on the court that's going to keep him in the league. You want to make a bet that Marciaum Brooks has a better year than Trey Young this year? Want to?

What? You name it. You name it. Is this a real bet? This year. No, I mean, listen, if you're going to slander the guy, he has a better season that Trey Young this year. Well, what are the qualifiers for this bet?

What is a better season? We're comparing a 20, 29, 30-year-old player who's in, probably the prime of his athletic life to Tray Young, who is a rookie in a bad situation, who's going to have a lot of the defensive attention against him. It wouldn't surprise me if Marshawn Brooks and your advanced stats had a better year. We don't need anything advanced. We don't need anything advanced.

How are we measuring this bet? You called. How is this a thing? Marchion Brooks will have a better year. He's going to have a better season that Tray Young. What? How is this a thing? Watch Trey Young play this year.

You tell me how it's a thing. I watched them both on the court the other night. I tell you this, if you'd never watch a basketball game in your life, I'll tell you which one you would have taken. It ain't close. It ain't close. I just pulled up the numbers.

It ain't close. Marshawn Brooks in the game that you saw. Seven for seven from the field. 18 points and 16 minutes. Are you kidding me? Give me that guy. All right. We're going to see,

we're going to see, Kevin. I mean, it's not my fault that you don't pay attention to who's on what team and whatever, but Trey Young,

give me a break. What's that? What's that TNT sketch? Which team is he on schedule? Yeah. What team is he on? How dare you slander, Marshawn Brooks,

after I tell a heartwarming story about him and him coming back from China? It's cool that Brooks is back. He was a guy that I enjoyed in the draft, but he's, not that good. Trey Young is a top pick for a reason. When was the last time you saw Marshawn Brooks play basketball?

Not when he went seven for seven against the Hawks. No, just when was the last time? Last season when he was dropping 20 a game. Oh, okay. And that's when you decided he sucks? No, I'm talking about,

I'm talking about when he's a young player. Oh, he sucks 10 years ago. Oh, he sucked 10 years ago. Oh, he sucked 10 years ago. Yeah, because your story was about, oh, I got all these minutes with the nets and then I didn't. Yeah, because you stunk.

that's my point. His rookie season stunk. I thought he was on the all rookie team. Am I wrong? Wait, am I? Talking about when he's a young point when you're saying it was time to win. Okay, let's see if, uh, 13 points, 13 points, four rebounds, two assists, 43% from the field.

That was his rookie year. And obviously it went all downhill after that. Let's see, Dejante Murray, torn ACO. On the heels of the Lonnie Walker news that his meniscus is torn, we now have Patty Mills, Demarderosen, Bryn Forbes, Derek White, who I loved at Salt Lake Summer League, by the way, and Marco Bellanelli is your guards. That's pretty light on the guard front for the San Antonio Spurs.

Wouldn't you agree? What do you think the Murray injury does to their projections? Definitely hurts their defense, that's for sure. right? It's a young player already one of the big reasons why San Antonio was so good defensively last year. Murray was rightfully named to one of the two all defensive teams and that's going to hurt. However, I'm excited to see Derek White with more opportunity. Derek White is a far more impressive offensive prospect than the Jante Murray with his shooting ability, his smooth passing ability. More, better at reading the floor. I'm very much looking forward to seeing White getting a chance within that

San Antonio offense and we would have seen it anyway with Murray, which is obviously why the injury sucks and why it's disappointing for the Spurs. But more chances for Derek White is going to be interesting. I like Derek White a lot. It's still one of those, the Spurs have been able to plug in all manner of people over the years. And so who knows what could take place. But I saw, let me give you something we actually agree on, Kevin. You said the Warriors, Houston, Oklahoma City, the Jazz. and the Lakers, that those were the teams that you thought...

Five playoff locks, right? Yeah, that you... I would tell you that I would be surprised, very surprised, if any of those five did not make the Western Conference playoffs. I would. We agree on this.

Those are the five teams, and then the rest of it, who the hell knows? I think we could have a situation like last year. You know, a lot of these teams are one injury away from... For sure.

You know, being a losing team, honestly, right? Like, I mean, for God's sake, God forbid, you know, knock on what it doesn't happen. Portland lost one of their two big ones. I mean, it'd be very hard to win games without either Dame or McCollum. And the same goes with a lot of teams. We saw what happened to Minnesota when Jimmy Butler went out for an extended amount of time.

It was a trudge. And they're probably going to lose him. So by the way, let's move to that. I read the first sentence and I was like, oh, the first sentence of Asham's Sharania report. said Jimmy Butler has returned to Minnesota. And I was like, what? And then the rest of the sentence was to reiterate his request to be traded. And I was like, he flew to Minnesota to tell him again.

So I guess it said that he had a meeting with Divado to tell him he wanted to get traded again. And this obviously has gone very poorly. This whole situation. And the story came out that I guess his camp, you know, they feel like his camp was responsible for leaking it and that you kind of find out that this Jimmy Butler trade could have been done a long time ago except that the news got out that Jimmy Butler wanted to be traded. And so now that really pissed off Minnesota too. What do you think? I don't know if that's necessarily true that they would have traded him had it not been leaked. I think that might have

impacted their leverage for sure from wherever the leaks came from, whether it was from Butler's side or somewhere else in the league. But yeah, there's no doubt Butler still wants out. That's It's been made clear to me. That hasn't changed. If you're Tibido, what you might be doing, though, is taking a massive risk that he returns and you could lose further leverage. You might not gain it necessarily. You could continue to lose leverage because right now it seems like Miami is the only team in this sweepstakes. Maybe somebody else steps up.

Obviously, Houston wants him, but I don't think they can offer as much as Miami can. Like, you know, two weeks ago, three weeks ago, however long ago it was. I had heard that Miami was kind of inevitable for Jimmy Butler, but at the time, Josh Richardson wasn't on the table, as far as I know. But last week, it does seem like Richardson has been a part of trade offers for Jimmy Butler.

And to me, that indicates that or at least closer to a deal, if Richardson is out there. Richardson is a really good two-way player. I'd want Richardson and Winslow, if I'm making that deal. I'd want both. I would want both of those players.

And I think I should get those if I'm training Jimmy Butler to you, don't you? It's fairs, fair. I mean, you're still not getting, right? You're not getting an all-star in return. I don't know, man. Like, if you're in Miami, you need to feel, you need to feel really confident that Jimmy Butler is willing to stay. Because right now he's in a spot where he's willing to do whatever to get out. And if he's not willing to stay in Miami, giving up Richardson, who is a really, really good two-way player and his

gotten better over the last couple seasons and Winslow, who, you know, he hasn't met expectations, but that guy can still get to fend. He can still do some quirky things for you on offense. He can be used as a small ball five. Jimmy Butler gives you a chance to be really good. And he's somebody that maybe when you have cat with space in the future that maybe somebody wants to team up with him in Miami. But man, like, there's significant risk there if he bounces and you're letting go of two of your more valuable assets for him. I don't know if you can give both. If you're Miami, I think you got to stick to one with maybe your 2019 pick, like a Richardson 2019 first with salary fill for a deal, giving up multiple young assets like Richardson plus

bam out of bio. I don't know. I don't know if I do that. I'd feel pretty good about him resigning with me if I'm Miami. What makes you feel good, though? That I'm Miami and that I'm going to be good. And I think that they would be a top four seat in the Eastern Conference if he's there. But then you also win. We talked about this before, I think, though. The fact is that in addition to Butler requesting to go to Brooklyn, New York, or L.A., those were the three teams on his list.

He's also going to turn 30 next year. And he wants a five-year max contract when he's missed. He's not, he's not Blake Griffin. He's not injury prone like that, but he's had a handful of injuries that have kept him off the court. He's played only over 70 games only twice in his career. and this is kind of my point about the NFL discussion that we're going to have is like availability matters Chris it does it really matters and butler is a guy that hasn't proven to be the most

available player speaking of kevin another in our news and notes is that uh Dwight Howard very well may might miss the opener and got pain injections in his back it's never uh never good for to hear about needles going in a guy's back before the season ever. Yeah. And I know you've got a lot of stock in this, right? I mean, it's like a penny stock. He's on the Kevin O'Conn artist, All-Star team this year. I mean, like, look, Dwight Howard's stock was like at $200 a share before.

It's like $4. So buying stock and Dwight Howard is the same much. But unfortunately, you own all four cents. everybody else is gone run for the coast so yeah you're only on I'm just buying and hoping to sell at some point during the season sell high sell high yeah I never want to hear about a guy having

a needle going his back that's for sure that's bad news knee injuries and back injuries scare the hell out of me yeah you wrote about Janice Antecumpo a lot of people are going to be paying are keenly aware Number one, speaking of body transformation, is a guy that looked like a superhero in the offseason. He's buried some threes in the preseason so far. He's got a new coach in Mike Budenholzer,

who obviously had a tremendous amount of success in Atlanta. What do we think? You say New Janus this year. New Janus. I don't even know if it's as much new Janus as Janus in a new system that's going to change. certain things in his game. The Bucks are playing at a faster pace this preseason,

shooting a hell of a lot more three-point shots. The Jason Kidd Bucks were always in the bottom 10 in pace. You know, Boodenholzer's Hawks were always at the upper half of the league. The Hawks were always in the top 10 or so. And three-point rate, the Bucks were not. They're always in the bottom five or so. So their offense is going to be different. They're playing differently this season.

They're running more motion set, especially motion strong, where they swing the ball from one side to the other. Janus within this offense is going to, I believe, get a lot more playmaking opportunities. But with the floor spacing with Brooke Lopez and Ersan Elyossova at the four and five, look, man, like that pain is going to be wide open for Janus to get to the rim. And I think that's where it's going to be a source of playmaking opportunity for him. And when he can kick it out to Lopez in the corner or Ilyos over on the wing, It'll be exciting to watch. Ultimately, will this be enough to propel the bucks to a top seat in the east,

which would also mean Janus is maybe the favorite for MVP when it comes to voting in April? We'll see. But I certainly think Janus's game is going to take a leap this year. Again, it feels like every year he takes a leap, doesn't it? Right? But I think another leap is coming because of the new system and the surrounding pieces. And that's exciting to watch. yeah i mean boonazer won 60 games in atlanta right and and got a lot of guys a lot of money

that's for sure what if i get that it was four of them made the all-star team that year right those hawks teams had some yeah good talent they were fun to watch yeah they were fun to watch yeah they were fun to watch spurs east spurs east that 14 15 season when they won what was it 18 19 games in a row right yeah something like that oh it was a fun team to watch for sure other than not they were like a 40-ish win team but that's beside point. Other little news and notes. All right, Isaac, I want you to defend this watchability draft that took place yesterday on

the Ringer NBA show. I've got this written down. I mean, my beloved Grizzlies, of which, by the way, I work for the Ringer. And people, if they watch League Pass, they know I'm literally on the pre-half and post-game for home games. So they can see me as if I don't make it infinitely watchable, right? Oh, man. And they go like second to last in this draft?

I mean, the friggin' nets get taken in like the third or fourth. The nets could walk through Times Square wearing their warm-ups, and no one would recognize them. And they play in Brooklyn. And they're watchable? Chris, I took them third to last. I took them over the Spurs and the magic, I believe. I was shocked that they were still on the board by the time it reached. me. I took the Clippers

with my fifth pick, and I thought for sure the Grizzlies were going to go ahead of the Clippers. And I, you know, I was lucky that they landed for the six pick for me. No, Jared Jackson Jr. just has to be awesome. Then you can become like the Utah Jazz were. I think he will be awesome. Well, I mean, but that's like how the Utah Jazz were, right?

By December, guess what we were all doing on League Pass? We're freaking watching jazz games. Yeah. We were, right? Because there's nothing more fun than an awesome rookie. So, you're hoping. Wait, how does Spurs go 29th? We just all hate Shay, you know. It's just osmosis by hanging around you.

Just absorb the energy from you. I'm like so excited to watch DeRosen in their new system. I think we were just overreacting because DeJun-Murie had just gone down on Sunday, right? So we had just reacting to that. He's like, oh, we don't have Murray, you know, do we want to watch Demar

de Rosen, Lamarcus Aldridge and Rudy Gay all in the same court? Honestly, it kind of just felt like they just slipped our mind collectively. It's been decades of disrespect for the Spurs. I know. It really is. Decades. While they won five championships.

Who had the number one picking that? Juliet. Juliet did, yeah. Took the Jazz number one. Did you listen to it? Did you listen to the podcast? I called that pick to Anthony Bennett pick, and I immediately regretted it because Juliet's my boss. Wait, so wait a minute.

I'm looking at the, on our Instagram, we have the league pass watchability draft, and it has Juliet, Micah, Isaac, Chris Gons with their picks. So I see Juliet, Micah, in that order was the draft, correct? This is correct. So wait a minute, Micah took the Pelicans second. I know he's a Pelicans fan. Wait a minute. Okay, this really, how does Gons end up with the Sixers and Lakers pick six and seven?

How do they not go in the top four? The Sixers, the Sixers, I'm sure, like, we all thought about taking the Sixers. I just hate the Lakers, so I pass on the Lakers. I don't want to watch the Lakers. Also, in my defense, if anyone has a problem with my draft order, I found out that I was doing it five minutes before. I was filling in for somebody else. So I'm just saying it.

You still ended up with your clippers. I did because no one else is going to take them anyway. So might as well. For what it's worth, I think Juliet and Chris had the best teams, the most interesting teams. Even despite the jazz going number one, like Juliet's team is really interesting to me.

Oh, wow. I can't believe you say that, Kevin. Both of your editors. I really think that's the best. No, no, I mean it. I mean it. Oh, man. Hey, you know,

hey, you know what? I think Bill would, If Bill was involved, he would have had the best team. No. Bill's team would have been better than everyone. No, I mean that sincerely because because what I'm looking at is most of the top teams are interesting, like the one, the three picks.

I'm talking about the four to six. Those are the ones where the decision to me is. Last two. Last two things. The first question for Kevin O'Connor is this. Are you the only person at the ringer.com that has not seen a star is born? Probably, yeah.

I think you are. And I look forward to seeing it, but I know we'll see when to find two hours and two plus hours to find to go see. I want to see it. Have you seen it? I did see it. Oh, how was it? Did it make you cry?

It was great. Did it make you cry? The tears form in the back of your job of loss. I might have gotten a little emotional. Okay. Yeah. I really want to see it. I look forward to seeing it.

Hey, listen, even my man Mark Titus liked it. so you know it's good. I love Lady Gaga, too. Yeah, so look forward. Who doesn't? Yeah, she's amazing. She's, she's, right. I guess there are people that hate her, but you know, it's funny, uh, speaking of,

uh, majority people do like her. I don't know if universally beloved would necessarily be the word, but that is what I called Drew Breeze last night. And there have been some people. Whoa. What a transition. That was there have been. There, there have been some people that came, uh, uh, uh, out since, but a very, very, very small

amount saying I hate Drew Breeze. There was surprisingly a couple people that were like, oh yeah, well, I guess you don't know about the Advocate stuff. And I'm like, what the hell? I had one guy say that he tried to ruin flag football for kids in San Diego. And so I hate him.

It was just strange some of the different responses. But it was a vast minority. For the most part, Drew Breeze is rather beloved. And I said that he absolutely deserves to be in the best ever conversation and you responded he's amazing but the best ever conversation good grief breeze isn't

close to brady montana manning or rogers yeah that that was that was mostly me just trying to channel you with the good grief yeah yeah i was trying to yeah exactly i thought you did well i thought you did well i mean a lot of people got angry about that like what are you talking about what are i I got ratioed. Good. Hey, I'm glad you stuck your toe into the NFL waters and immediately got destroyed. You know, just to tie this to NBA, it's, you know, like we alluded to earlier with Jimmy Butler, I think one of the hallmark traits with Drew Breeze is his availability.

Ever since he had that torn labor early in his career in San Diego, he's somebody who is stayed healthy, never really gets hurt, never misses time, never gets bounced from games early. Drew Breaz's can always be. be leaned on to be on the field and to produce at a high level. And to me, I think across sports, that sometimes is what gets overlooked when it comes to evaluating talent. And that's one of my hangups with Rogers. Like, he might be the most talented quarterback ever, Aaron Rogers, with his ability to

pass on the move, roll out, throw off balance and sort of throw darts 45 yards down the field. Rogers might be the most talented quarterback ever. but he's also been off the field quite a lot too. I think the conversation with Drew Breeze, he belongs in that general range. I don't think he's on the same level as Brady or Montana, but he's absolutely one of the top 10 quarterbacks ever.

Well, I mean, here's the thing. It's one thing. I do feel like it's kind of taking away from him to taste. I understand what you're saying about availability, but you've got to be available and amazing. And he has been amazing over the course of his career. Sure. There's only nine, five thousand yards seasons in NFL.

history, he has five of them. Yeah, I was about to say, he has like five or six, right? Well, since he's been in the league, he's led the NFL in passing seven times. Brady, Manning, and Rothesberger combined for seven times. I mean, this guy, in terms of being a prolific passer, he has no peer. I mean, it's like most 300-yard games, more 400-yard games, highest completion percentage in a season, highest, most career yards, most seasons leading the league in passing. beyond all that, I think the other argument for him is that he has not had,

you know, his three top targeted players in his career. How about this? This will shot me. Number one, 2,300 of his 5,200 completions have been completed to players drafted in the seventh round or undrafted. His three most targeted players have been Marcus Colston, Lance Moore, and Jimmy Graham. And Jimmy Graham, I suppose, like, he won't be a Hall of Fame, right? I would, I would say. He was a great tight end though.

He was a great tight end. When he was healthy early in his career, before injuries hit him, you know, I think last year in New Orleans or in Seattle, he's a great, great tight end. Oh, he was amazing for a stint, right? But it's not, I mean, Brady had Moss for three years. Obviously, Manning had Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison. They're both, you know, Hall. It will end up in the Hall of Fame, I'm sure. Sir Harrison already has.

You know, Brady had Welker, Gronk, Edelman, Moss. but you could argue that he made those. I don't think we should underrate Breeze's weapons, though. Like, Darren Sproul is one of the best receiving backs ever. Reggie Bush, solid, Pierre Thomas. Not our timers, though. I know, but really good players. And, you know.

Hey, I'm sorry, is this the ringer NBA show? Yes, it is. It is a ringer. Right, I'm just checking. I'm just checking, this not the NFL show. How dare you? I mean, consider you were part of that watchability draft yesterday. For God's sakes.

The Saints have put good offensive talent around Drew Brees. I think that's undeniable. then some people The people who will knock Drew Brie's would look at the fact that he plays in a dome and some of his home and road splits are a little idies. So to Pey Manning.

Of course. Oh, no doubt about it. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we're going to hold against a guy? I'm not holding against him. I'm just saying if you're talking best ever, I think Tom Brady and Joe Montana

I think are above Drew Brees. For sure, and that's because of the Super Bowl rings. But I mean, his, listen, this Thomas kid is the best receiver that's ever played with Breeze and it's happening late in his career. Maybe at the end, Michael Thomas is better than any receiver he's ever had outside of Graham. I mean, he has not had weapons. What are you talking about? He's had weapons. I just told you that almost half of his completions are the guys that were drafted in the seventh round or undrafted.

Sure, but that also is a testament to the Saints for drafting steel. late in the draft. And, of course, a breeze for helping those players along, but Colson wasn't a bad receiver. He's really good. But when your top two targets are Colston and Lance Moore, come on,

Kev. These are not all-time players. These are guys. Jeremy Graham at the time was a dominant tight end. Dominant. He was arguably better than Grunk for a couple of years,

arguably. I agree. And he played for whatever, how many other seasons he did. with Drew Brees. True Brees is an all-time great. No doubt. That's all I said.

That's all-time quarterback. I'm right there with it. He's a top 10 all-time quarterback. Do I think he is the best ever? No. But, I mean, you've got to win X number of Super Bowls to be above those guys. But I absolutely think you can argue Manning and Rogers, other guys with one Super Bowl, right? Because, I mean, when it's all said and done, he's going to have this record book.

The Manning won, too. Oh, I don't even count the second one. You don't count that? Wait, wait a minute. the Broncos one? Yeah. Oh, good. They won despite him.

They literally won despite him. Von Miller won the damn MVP of the game. Still on his record. It counts for Manning for sure. But yeah, like he wasn't great. It's like Rathusberger's first one, right? Like he did everything he could to lose the game and still couldn't lose because the Steelers.

That's always the funny thing when it comes to discussing like these, you know, big, big game losses. Like we've talked about this before Chris of NBA. but it's like in Tom Brady's Super Bowls that he lost, the one of the Eagles had one of the greatest quarterback performances in Super Bowl history ever, but they lost. You know, against the Giants going against these dominant defenses. People talked about in the past how Manning choked.

It's like, yeah, but he went against these dominant Patriots defenses each year in the early 2000s. Yeah. Drew Brees. Well, they didn't necessarily have the best overall talent, you know, as we talked about, to elevate his play to that level. How about this one? And I'll end with this, and this will not make Chris Ryan and Gons and all of them happy.

But the truth is, I think that if the kid just knocks down the ball and the digs play never happens, I think the Saints could have won the Super Bowl last year. I think they would have beaten Philly and then they would have gone and they would have played New England. If Nick Falls could throw for 700 yards against them, what could Drew Brees do? I mean, they had a real crack at winning the Super Bowl last year. Their defense was really good. and again, that digs play, it flips everything, right? Now you're ousted instead.

But I think they could have beaten the Nick Foles-led Eagles. Hell, Atlanta should have if Matt Ryan and Julio Jones could make a play on fourth down. They could have, I mean, so again, the margin is slim, right? If one of those amazing plays doesn't happen, maybe he wins another Super Bowl last year. It's possible. It's remarkable how thin those margins are in these high-stakes games. I mean, I think about as a Patriots fan, they could just as easily have, have eight Super Bowls or zero with the amount of close games that they've had.

That's what makes it so fun to watch. Yeah, Venetary starts shanking, right? Yeah, no kidding, right? Or John Casey doesn't kick the ball out of bounds in the Carolina one. Or if the ball doesn't stick to the side of helmet, if Asante Samuel is able to knock down a pass, if Vince Will Fork is able to stop Brandon Jacobs on fourth down earlier in the drive before all that happened. If all those things were able to happen, who knows how different things would be, one way

or the other. Kevin, we are one week from today having the NBA season began. Also, in addition to that, make sure you keep an eye out for Paloosa, which is going to be taking place for the NBA on that very day. Also, there's a new video series, and this one's going to feature Brandon Ingram, who we talked about a lot about last week that is coming out for the ringer. So keep your eyes peeled for that. Go give us a rating and review on iTunes. It really helps the show. Five stars. Five stars. And I'll talk to you next. week, Keph. Thanks, brother. Good chatting today, Chris. That was fun. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. We will talk to you next week.