The Ringer NBA Show - The GM-less Cavs, Paul George, and the Porzingis Rumor (Ep. 127)

Episode Date: June 20, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon is joined by Sam Amick of USA Today to discuss David Griffin's departure from the Cleveland Cavaliers (02:00), Jimmy Butler and the Boston Celtics (18:00), Paul George's interest in the Lakers (22:00), what the Clippers' addition of Jerry West means to Chris Paul, Blake Griffin and the Clippers (26:30), and Phil Jackson's statement on possibly trading Kristaps Porzingis (34:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and joining me today is Sam Amickey, is a national NBA columnist for USA Today and USA Today.com. Sam, how you doing? Chris Vernon, what's up, my friend? Doing great. Thanks for having me. All right, so this is all gone completely silly with the NBA news over the course of the last 48 hours. But let's start with yesterday's news. Yesterday afternoon, it has announced that David Griffin is no longer going to be the general manager of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

When you see that come across the wire, your first thought is what? I mean, not shocking, but it's just the execution of it that was the most stunning part. I literally had just filed a column talking about Jerry West and the Clippers and their 2018 pursuit of LeBron James. And I had a graph talking about how the Cavs front office chaos, you know, was the kind of climate that could lead to frustration for LeBron. And then, lo and behold, like before we could even hit publish, this thing's a wrap. Dave's out. Trent Redden, their VP of Basketball Ops who did a great job, was also out. I mean, you're talking about what we knew was June 30th, their contracts expired.

And so certainly, you know, it seemed like if they were going to get a deal done, they would have already by this point. But you have Jimmy Butler trade talks happening in real time that day, you know, where my colleague Jeff Zilgett had reported that I think he said 6 p.m. Eastern, Dave Griffin's on the phone. trying to get a sense from Jimmy Butler and his people, whether or not he wanted to play with LeBron, and then 90 minutes later, it's a rep. Your Cavs tenure has come to an end.

I mean, my big takeaway is Dan Gilbert stumbled into getting LeBron back for a second time, and he's showing again why he's just not one of the better owners in the league. Dave Griffin did a fantastic job. You know, if you can't get an extension based on three straight finals appearances and a championship, and I don't know when you're going to get one. And how is that even possible that they were having him do all of the trade calls, et cetera, and get ready and do all the preparation for a draft that's a couple of days away? And not just, you know, picks, but rather if you might,

you never know if a team's going to get more involved with the draft, less involved with the draft, and everybody is now on the phones with each other, so trades can be executed. Like the fact that it's 48 hours before the draft is just bizarre. No, it's crazy. I mean, you know, I don't know what Gilbert's plan was. I also wonder, and I don't, this is just speculation. But, you know, it reminded me a little bit of the Lakers situation when they made the move to get rid of Jim Bus and Mitch Cuthcheck where they were having talks about DeVarca's cousin with the Kings. And then it seemed like Jeannie Bus and ownership got nervous that they were going to give up too many assets for kind of a bold, risky move.

I mean, it's human nature might be that if you think you're at the end of the rope, end of the line, then maybe you're a little more, you know, less risk-averse than before. So I don't know if Dan didn't like the Jimmy Butler talks or what the heck was going on that led him to pull the plug a couple of days early. But now you have a guy in Kobe Aldman who is widely respected, but he was third on the total poll before, and now Kobe is at the top of that front office. And certainly reports about Chansy Billups coming in and potentially Justin Danik,

who was just kind of parted ways with Milwaukee. but just a terrible time for this kind of upheaval. Especially because, as you're heading into the draft, as we mentioned, there are all types of different, there's all types of different scenarios where you never know what can take place. And like you said, with Chauncey Bill's like what? Chauzy Bill is going to come in and do a crash course in 24 hours. Like now I suppose it's just going to be, right?

It's just going to be Dan Gilbert like calling the shot, right? I mean, my friend Jason Lloyd, who's down with the athletic, him and he hit the nail on the head with a tweet last night when he said, nothing has changed here. Dan Gilbert runs this team. That's how it's always been. You know, and it's not a compliment.

It's just a reality. And, you know, that's why you talk about get your popcorn and NBA theater. I mean, obviously stuff was flying around like crazy yesterday, but it's like LeBron's going to be a free agent next summer. Already a ton of noise about him going to L.A. You know, this is,

he is making it so easy to leave town. Dan is with the way that he's running things right now. I mean, he's given LeBron all kinds of cover if that's ultimately what he ends up deciding to do. And in fairness, I mean, they don't have picks, but my opinion would be, especially when you are, and you just heard Steve Kerr talking about this in terms of them needing to be more involved with player evaluation in the draft and really getting great players on good contracts. Well, the best way to do that is through the draft. And so Cleveland might have picks, but, I mean, they are the perfect team to try.

to get involved if you fancy yourself a talent evaluator, you're going to need guys that can contribute, given your salary cap situation, that are on small contracts. And the best way to do that's the draft. And so, I mean, you got to imagine, like, who know, A, you know, the chances of them getting involved in the draft seem probably a lot smaller now. B, who the hell do you pick, right? I mean, you're counting on, like, your talent evaluation just left, right? Hopefully they took their whiteboard with them.

Right. I mean, you know, Tylo and Chauncey, if that ends up being the guy, you know, they have a good relationship. So hopefully they click quickly and start figuring things out. But, I mean, to your point, they certainly could buy a pick and get a guy like the Warriors to use them as an example. You know, they bought a pick, I think, from Milwaukee. Ended up getting Pat McCaw.

Next thing, you know, he's giving you valuable minutes in game five with the NBA final. I mean, this is an important. time where opportunistic teams that don't have this kind of dysfunction end up exploiting opportunities and improving their team. And it seems pretty challenging for the Cavs to do that right now. I mean, I'm pretty stunned, man. I, you know, I always felt like the Dan Gilbert, LeBron James relationship was a fascinating one because it was, you know, LeBron was clearly still there in spite of Dan. It's not, you know, he wasn't as hot about the way they parted ways before. But clearly it wasn't like, it wasn't completely water under the bridge.

I don't know if you saw that show that Uninterrupted did, the shop where they had LeBron and Dremont Green. I did. And some other guys sitting around. Yeah, he talks about the Comic Sans letter and how his owner had written this thing. And it was clear that it's not like it was something he forgot about. I just didn't think we would have that narrative sparked and fueled to this degree so quickly on the heels of the finals. You know the most fascinating thing for anybody that doesn't know what we're talking about there.

You can even pull it up on YouTube, Uninterrupted. and it's like a barbershop talk, and there's all kinds of guys, two chains is in there, and Draymond's in there, and Charles Oakley's in there, and it's really good and fascinating to watch. I mean, they debate all kinds of different things, but the particular subject that you are talking about, I thought the most fascinating part of LeBron's monologue on that whole return to Cleveland deal was my wife didn't want me to go back,

and my mom said, you can go back, but I'm not going back, leave me in Miami or wherever else. So it was clearly not, Like, it's weird. The closest people to him were not in the, let's go back to Cleveland and do this camp. In fact, he did that. He makes it sound like he did that in deference. Like he said, listen, this is about something bigger and you guys will see the bigger picture.

And it's weird because, I mean, you know what it's like. What if your wife and your mother are the two people you're talking to? and they're like, right? Like, I mean, it's crazy for him to say that, right? Like, anybody that's listening to it, if you've got a wife and a mom, and they both tell you that's a bad idea, usually you don't do it, right? Right, 100%. I mean, I'll share a funny story with you.

I was on the phone yesterday with my colleague, Jeff Stilgett, at USA Today, and we were having a good time joking about how the LeBron wife subplot. And I was like, dang, Jeff, like, you know, it's kind of referring. to know that even these dudes who make the kind of money that we could never even dream of, like $28 million. Now, that's not enough for you to be the one who tells your wife where you're going to live. Like, nope, that's happy wife, happy life. That's how life works.

It doesn't matter how much bread you're bringing home. You know, that voice is always going to matter. And then I even brought my wife into the mix. She was sitting there. And I was like, all right, honey, how much I got to make for me to call the shots on where we live. She's like, it doesn't matter how much you make, you know. And that's, you know, that's the human part of these guys. that sometimes gets forgotten.

There's a little bit, not the same. You know what says a lot about LeBron because we all have people like that in their lives. In fact, I'm that guy, where if the guy ever wrote that letter and all of the stuff, the Benedict Arnold and, you know, all that, all that below. I'd be, F that guy forever. I don't need him, right? And it's funny because it feels like the mom and the wife were both,

F that guy, no, absolutely. Like, they were madder than LeBron was. LeBron was able to get over it, and they weren't. And so now you have this, and you don't think mom and wife called him last night and said, told you, this guy is an asshole. We told you not to go back. But nobody's mad, right? Because, I mean, they're mad.

But if you're LeBron, you're like, all right, Dan, like, listen, at least I got that chip in before you got back to your old tricks. Like, I don't need this day. Like, that's it. That tweet yesterday, I'm sure you're. saw. LeBron gave Dave Griffin a lot of credit and said, you know, I appreciate you, even if other people don't or whatever it was. And he says, at least we got one in.

Like, that's LeBron's Trump card. He can drop the mic right now. Like, he can't get out of his contract this summer. But the first day that he can, you know, he's free and clear from a PR standpoint. I really don't think. I'm sure the people of Cleveland would be devastated. But, again, you know, Dan is giving him all kinds of cover. and I do wonder if the acrimony grows,

if this thing doesn't get settled down. And let's leave a little bit of room for the possibility that say it's Chonzie, who knows? Maybe Chonzie comes in, he's vibing with LeBron. They're happy. And LeBron comes out and says, you know, Dave was great, but I'm pretty optimistic about this. But if that doesn't happen,

if it gets worse and worse and worse, then we've got to start asking a question because Dan Gilbert is still Dan Gilbert. Like, if he's convinced LeBron's going to go, I mean, is there any chance? if he moves him. Because he swore in that infamous comic sans letter that never again would he let that happen to the people of Cleveland.

In his mind, maybe that means some kind of preemptive strike. You know, it's just crazy to think that we're even thinking that possibility is even on the table. Think about how, and then Nike, what you were saying when you were explaining it, it made me think, like, if this is a movie and the way the movie plays out, that now, once upon a time that we're burning LeBron James jerseys. And he was the devil incarnate who had gone on national TV and ripped their hearts out of their chest. And now if he weirdly goes back there, becomes the hero, delivers the championship, and then turns Gilbert into the guy that everybody hates, right? And there's like nobody in the arena, right?

Like the most amazing revenge ever for the letter would be going back there, winning the championship. and then leaving and everybody blaming that guy this time. I agree. As an aside, and it relates to the dancing, I think I've officially decided that when it comes to superstar players leaving cities, I'm just really not a fan. I don't care if you're the owner. I don't care if you're a business owner in that particular city.

I feel like we always see some local high-profile person go too far in trying to defend their city, i.e. Dan and the letter, where he's convincing himself, oh, I could be a total martyr here. And, you know, my approval rating is going to skyrocket if I write this letter. And it's going to hurt me with LeBron, but who cares? That's not what I'm worried about right now. We saw some of this with OKC, you know, some of the local folks that, you know, they're burning stuff on his Kevin Durant's lawn.

And it just, I feel like over time it reveals character. It comes back to bite you. And, you know, people do it, though, every single time. I got hurt the city. How much do you think it changes the thing? of other Eastern Conference teams because that was one of the things that I thought about last night, and especially in reference to the whole Toronto thing, and Kyle Lowry, who knows if he's going to stay in Toronto or not. But I'm wondering if you're Maasai Ujiri or if you're one of the other executives in the East going,

you know what? Our window, like in two years, if he's a Laker, right? Like the Eastern Conference becomes a different world if LeBron isn't in it. He has dominated the conference. And that's who you've had to get past. And so I do wonder, especially just two days from the draft and everybody talking trades and draft picks, etc., how much – do you think this has a drastic effect on the way Eastern Conference executives think about their teams and their opportunity to do big things? Yeah, I do. I mean, Boston is at the front of that list, right, where they're feeling pretty good about the idea.

that maybe LeBron gets out of the way. And I kind of, you know, all the idea of LeBron going West, I kind of love, and I think it speaks highly of him, potentially, where, you know, it's great to go to seven straight finals, and that's something to be extremely proud of. But at the end of the day, like, the challenge is the same, right? Like, if you can get through the Warriors in the conference finals in the West, you know, then it's almost like you're on your way

and you can actually win some more rings instead of just being the guy that gets to the finals every year. and again, but the ripple effect, like you're saying, is, yeah, in the East, you're loving the idea that maybe LeBron gets out of your way. And, you know, Boston's on that list, Toronto, Milwaukee with that core that they have, what they're trying to do, Philly farther down the line, trying to build something. Definitely a game changer. And even if he stays in the East, you just see kind of unshaky grounds.

And you see a core where, okay, LeBron, Kyrie, and Kevin Love have gotten themselves to a really good place. but you know what's the depth going to be like next season is richard jefferson even going to play anymore some of those other guys that are up in years i mean they have i believe that they had the second oldest team in the NBA last year so you know it's not all hope is definitely not lost if you're in the east okay let me ask you about the the david griffin thing because before the story comes out that he's parting ways with the calves the first part of that story was and and you just mentioned um about a report saying that he was talking about to Chicago right before he got fired, right, or let go.

Right, right. So the small part of that story becomes he was talking to Chicago, which lets us know Chicago was talking to people about Jimmy Butler. And we've kind of wondered if the Aange and the Boston trade was part of something bigger. I was kind of surprised to read that Cleveland could be a player for Jimmy Butler. But do you think that sends us a signal that within the next four, 48 hours, we could see Jimmy Butler in a different uniform. Yeah, I think so.

I mean, I feel like, you know, all the scenarios are out there right now. I mean, it's the Warriors, kind of six degrees of Golden State where I think seems like the Cavs, teams like the Celtics. They know that, you know, it's not enough to have two stars. You know, you've got to get yourself to three and obviously the Warriors have got four. So Jimmy and, you know, it's all about Jimmy. it's all about Paul George and where he's going to go. And right now, you know, if you look at it like a cabinet in your kitchen,

like right now the cabinet's full of potential assets that you can sit there and hand out to get those guys back, right? And that's going to change here in a couple days, where those picks and the control that comes with them, you know, whichever picks the respective teams have, you know, you have the control to select the talent you want to select. And on the back end of this, now you're talking about human beings and actual players.

who have already been drafted, and it just changes thing, and you don't have the assets, you don't have the pieces to get a deal done. So that's why you're seeing the flurry here. And to your question, for sure, I wouldn't be shocked to see Jim and moving the next couple days. When Danny Ainsch says, and yesterday's quoted saying, the player we wanted that we would have taken at number one is going to be available at number three. Do you buy that? I do.

I mean, I don't know who that guy is, though. I mean, we have been here in Dennis Smith, which that would be super high for him. You know, I don't know if it's a Josh Jackson or who it's going to be or a Tatum. But it seems, I mean, the elephant in the room is that, you know, it wasn't Markell. And that's surprising because it was a lot of good buzz about the building relationship between Boston and Markell in those early days.

Markele went to visited with them, you know, and I was in touch with his camp and getting good feedback. So I do buy it. And I think that, you know, there's been some criticism of that trade for Danny and the idea that, you know, the Sixers ended up getting that protection on the second pick, two through five. So if it's number one, you know, then they, you know, the Celtics lose it. But, excuse me.

But, I mean, if you knew that this was not a game changer at all for your situation, and then, like he said, the guy at three was going to be the guy at one, then there's nothing to lose. You just didn't change your situation at all. You avoided the criticism of taking that guy at one, and now you're in a better spot. I mean, I do think that was logic. Do you think they would trade for Jimmy Butler

if their goal is to sign most people believe their biggest target is Gordon Hayward in the offseason? We said even if you have duplication of skill sets, now I don't know. I think it matters how Gordon potentially sees that situation, right? if he feels like it's a little too redundant and playing next to Jimmy would be tough, then that's another question. But this has become, you know, like the way the formula to build a team has changed.

And the model is the Warriors. And so I think last year, last summer, people would be kind of looking sideways at that. Like, no, you've got to feature one of those guys. Make Jimmy your guy along with Isaiah, along with those other guys on that Celtics roster, and make that work. But now you can't have enough talent. So it does make a lot of sense to have those two guys together. Do you think anybody would trade for Paul George as a rental?

And do you believe that the Lakers could pull the trigger on a deal just to ensure that he ends up there, even if it's a year earlier than expected? Because I think there's this sentiment, right? The Lakers don't have to give up anything now because they'll just sign him in the offseason. next year with the money they have available. But if it does become evident that he's on the market and other teams are willing to give something up, you do at least risk that chance that he could go somewhere, maybe win big, love it, and resign wherever, you know, whoever trades for him.

Yeah, I mean, that list of potential rentals, I think, is going to be pretty short. And now this is a game changer with Dave Griffith being out in Cleveland because he, you know, He definitely was intrigued by that possibility and obviously was looking at the Butler thing and looking at the Paul George thing both. And, you know, the Cleveland thing would have been different, right? Because you could win a title. You win a title with the game changer.

I don't care how badly you wanted to play for the hometown team. You know, Paul grew up in Palmdale, California. You know, it's ironic. He was kind of a Clippers fan, but he was just in love with Kobe Bryant. It was a huge Kobe fan. But the Cavs, you know, the Celtics. the Raptors, those teams, if you, and I'm just mentioning the East, I mean, if you could get Paul in a situation where you think the success and the winning would be enough to change the scope

of what he had planned in pre-agency, then you do the rentals. And obviously at what price? You know, what are you giving up and how much of a risk is it? Because otherwise, like to your Lakers question, you know, they're going to have to walk this fine line where, for one, they need to get really good intel right now to really have their ear to the ground and know, if they are at risk of losing Paul to one of those kinds of teams that would actually change the way he sees things because otherwise they really need to just wait.

You know what I mean? Like the competitive gap between the Lakers and the rest of the NBA is so great. I mean, I wrote this a couple months ago, like you're talking about a 40-win gap between the Warriors and the Lakers. So if the idea is that Paul George wants to win titles to contend,

you cannot do the Carmelo Anthony passed, you know, to New York when he left Denver, and he could have just signed there in a free agency that summer. The lockout was coming. He was worried about losing a bunch of money. So they do the trade, the Knicks of the Nugget, and just a ton of players that would have helped Mello in New York got shit back to Denver just for no reason.

It was a huge mistake. And that's where the Lakers are at. If you do that, just to get Paul, Paul's a very good player. But we saw the height and the ceiling of Paul George surrounded by a bunch of, misfits in Indiana. And we already know what that movie looks like. And that would not be any different in LA.

Now, next summer, maybe he can recruit guys and get some help. But the Lakers, you know, they're trying to think to hold on and just hope that they can get them next summer. That's super fascinating compared to the Carmelo thing. I didn't even consider that. That was so long ago now, golly. And we'll get to the Knicks in a minute, which are a mess. But let me ask you again about the Lakers.

And do you feel like the perception league-wide has changed about them? dramatically now that Jeannie is kind of running the show as as is Magic and Rob Polinka. I mean, I've been advocating or, you know, I guess endorsing the magic move. I like it. I think that the combination, though, Rob, has got a lot of CBA experience and he's been an agent for a long time, and he's going to find his way as the GM doing a lot of the dirty work. But in today's day and age, what we are seeing is a lot of these teams

are kind of getting trophy head names. And that's what Magic is. and I'm not, that's not disparaging at all, his ability to make moves and help the team, but he's not experienced in that front. Right now, his value is that he's Magic Freaking Johnson, and he is not only an all-time great who resonates with players in today's NBA, Paul George, Chief among that. I mean, the day the Lakers got Magic Johnson, I was told by one of Paul's people like this,

like, you know, Paul wanted to go to Lakers before, like now he wants to go even worse. And so that resonates. On top of that, he's a guy who, has been wildly successful off the floor and just become a business mogul. And that's the kind of thing that today's players can respect and they want to learn from him. So

he's a very positive thing, I think, for their program. They need to be a little careful with, you know, my only criticism so far has been and this is Jeannie, this is Magic, this is all about like Kobe Bryant had a great career. They have kind of this weird six degrees of Kobe culture

right now where it's like, well, we want Paul George because he loved Kobe as a kid. Demarga Rose and loved Kobe, so let's recruit tomorrow. You know, like, let's not go too far with the whole, like, the only way to go is through the prison of Kobe type strategy.

But I do think they're in a better spot than they were before. Let me ask you about that other team that plays in the Staples Center, the Clippers, because you wrote about Jerry West going there. So, let's start with this. Jerry West has been a significant figure within the Warriors organization. It's been written

about many times, and he has been talked about some of the impact that he has had with things that he has either recommended they do or whatever else. First, why is Jerry West no longer with the Warriors? That would be the first thing I want to ask. As much as the Clippers did. Fair enough. Yeah, I mean, it got a little messy at the end. They've all kind of tried to keep it under wraps a little bit. Jerry's been a little bit outspoken. I mean, he had a comment that flew under the radar a little bit that was pretty powerful. Brad Turner of the L.A.

Times had an interview with Jerry and I'm paraphrasing, but he called leaving the Warriors like he said when he left the arena after game five, he knew he wasn't going to be back and it was like the worst feeling of his basketball life. Wait a minute. Look who

we're talking about here. That was one and eight in the finals. We just all watch that Boston and that Celtics Lakers 30 for 30, Jerry. Right, exactly. And by the way, I covered Jerry for three different seasons, of which the Grizzly set the NBA record for going 0 and 12 in playoff games. They're the only team to ever get swept.

They got swept three years in a row. So forgive me when... I remember those days. Yeah. I remember those days. So you can relate to this, not to get to too far afield. First time I ever called Jerry my entire career. Now, admittedly, he's a huge name.

And I set up this phone interview when I was at the first. the Sacramento B. And I'll never forget it. And the story would be funnier if I could actually share the off-the-record part. But you know Jerry, and he's a talker, right? And I call him up, and he doesn't know me from Adam. And I forget what I wanted to interview him about. But we talk, we do the interview.

And the second we wrap it up, he just says, well, isn't Sam? Off the record, doesn't it? And he starts telling me this stuff where I'm going, holy Toledo. You don't know who I am. You don't know, I might tweet this. I might write this. Like, you know, he's a loose cannon sometimes. with kind of the way he feels.

He's passionate. He's emotional, and he's stuck in the moment, I think. And with this Warriors thing, that was a painful ending. The Clippers, I'm told, gave him between $4 million a year, which is pretty darn healthy for a consultant. Wow. Yeah. And so, you know, and he got paid out by the Warriors. He had a kind of a blind ownership stake that was part of his payout. So he, I don't know the actual amount, but that was a big number.

So Jerry's doing this fine on the financial front, but he wanted to be back with the Warriors. And, you know, and I was definitely told these extremely disappointed with how that ended. But I kind of love this Clipper story. And I kind of love the fact that on one side of the ledger, you got Magic in the Lakers, who they made a deliberate choice to not partner with Jerry West. I do think definitely he would have wanted to come back in, again, in a certain role. If a guy's getting $4 to $5 million from the Clippers,

then you have to imagine he wanted a big role with the Lakers. But instead, he goes to the L.A. underdog, and kind of what I wrote is that a major reason the Clippers went after him is they are big believers in the relationship that he has with LeBron James. And, you know, it's been written about a lot. They have this interesting connection. And this is not something where I'm trying to act like they talk once a week. It's very intermittent.

but LeBron, I think, looks at Jerry and sees a lot of himself, vital struggles, pain throughout your career, things of that nature. LeBron has read Jerry's book West by West several times, and he's even got a nickname for him. He calls him the Godfather. So he holds him in the highest regard, and the Clippers are definitely hoping that will help next summer when they try to go after him. What do you think that does with the whole Paul and Griffin and what happens with that? So twofold. A, what do you think this means for Chris Paul and Blake Griffin and Free Agency? And B, what do you think this does for the power wielded by Doc Rivers?

Don't have a good beat on the Doc part yet. I've heard that it's positive in the early goings. And even from folks on Jerry's side, that Jerry has been very pleased and appreciative of kind of the Doc's nature in the early days of that working together. Hey, then you know this, Sam. We both know this. Then that means that Doc Rivers is going to do what Jerry West recommends. That's what that means.

If he's happy with him, that means he's not facing a lot of disagreement. Right, exactly, exactly. Well, and Jerry did what same time. I don't know if you saw any of his press conference. I mean, no specifics, but he came out talking about how sometimes the right move is not the popular move. So there is that part of me for sure that thinks he might be in that room

recommending some changes that we did not necessarily foresee. And chief among them, I feel like the Blake Griffin situation is a bit of a toss-up at this point. I expect Chris Paul to be back, and that would play into the LeBron's storyline. If you're going to get LeBron next summer,

you've got to still have Chris on this team, you know, they're the best of friends and whatnot. Blake is a little more complicated, because for one, if you re-sign Chris and Blake and then potentially have a shot of LeBron, then at that point you're going to have to move a bunch of money. Someone's got to go. And it's going to be a situation where you've got to create some cash space.

And then more importantly, right, you know, here and the now, how does Jerry West view Blake Griffin as a player? Well, let's not forget, we just saw Jerry West Warriors dominate the clippers for the last couple of years. And, you know, Blake was at the center of those matches. and that rivalry and, you know, I can't,

I've never had a detailed conversation with Jerry about Blake, but I can tell you from the Warriors general, you know, they kind of reached a point where certainly they, they were not scared of Blake Griffin. They weren't scared of Chris Ball. So I think Jerry coming in and having some sway in that room, I just have a hard time thinking he's going to look at Doc and say,

oh, I always felt like this court could get it done. They just haven't caught the brakes. Let's keep going with the same group, you know. I think he's probably going to try to find a way to change things up. And you wonder, right? It's almost like the trainer for the fighter that has a falling out, and so he goes to his opponent's corner. Right, right, right, right.

Who would know the Warriors better, right? If you're trying to, he would at least have, as if he didn't have, you know, insane credibility, the whole idea that he's been behind the scenes with the Warriors, and that is who you are attempting to build to beat. you know, you'd obviously take what he has to say extremely seriously. But for sure, but isn't it sensitive to? Like I kind of wonder, like, the players themselves, you know, there was a sound bite yesterday where Jerry said to Doc, you know, Doc, I promise you,

you know, if you had those four guys, the Warriors have, then, you know, and Doc kind of finished the sentence, he says, oh, no comment. You know, but it's like if you're a Clipper's star, you're like, okay, okay, okay, I don't necessarily need this new guy run around. Just, you know, the Warriors this, the Warriors are at, the Warriors are amazing. I kind of wonder how that dynamic's going to go. But this is Steve Ballmer doing what he does, which is going big. I mean, my God, the guy cut a $2 billion check to buy a basketball team.

He's now going to, you know, pay for this arena that they're trying to get going in Englewood. I mean, he is doing his darters to just completely change the Clippers brand. And then, you know, it feels more than ever right now. now, like, he's going to do what it takes, and they're going to get there. All right, Sam, a quick word from our sponsors before we get back to it. It is draft season, and everybody's going to be putting their team together. Well, everybody needs the right players. The sharp outside shooter or the power rebounder can be the difference between winning and losing.

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Janowski reported this morning, and this one was like, like what, that Phil Jackson that sources were that Phil Jackson isn't ruling out the possibility of trading Porzingis. Frenzy of interest is growing today, and then he

goes on to report that he met with Lori Markanan in New York, a player whom he's considering at eight as a possible replacement for Perzingus if he gets moved. What in the world? like wouldn't you say in the list of young players in the NBA? I mean, the list is short, which includes the Greek freak,

and it includes Christavs Porzengis, these guys under 25 years of age that you want to try to build around. What the hell is this about? You know, it's one thing. We could have seen the Carmelo Anthony face off coming from a mile away. You know, it's – and you felt like when Phil re-upped with Mello, you know, it was kind of the – your kid taking the medicine they didn't want to take,

like feeling to it, that he didn't have a better option. He was hoping against hope that Mello would buy it to the triangle. And, you know, it's a big surprise that didn't work. This, like, Porzingis, we thought, was kind of the kind of player that was literally built in the Phil Jackson's lab and right up his alley. And then, you know, Chris Stabs, after Mello,

you know, he was obviously sharing a few signs of being frustrated with the organization. and this is the problem for Phil that the optics have been so bad for so long when it comes to his treatment of players and this goes back to LeBron and the infamous posse comment that whether you think that was fair or not that did not help Phil in superstar circles

and there are numerous other examples of things like that where I think a guy like Porzingis started looking around talking to his colleague and just not really digging the way that Phil was wired and the way that things were going. But this seems like an overcorrection. Like, you can't work out the Porzangis thing.

You know, you're going to move on from a guy that is still extremely young. You know, and this all happens towards like when the playoffs are going, whatever, and I forgot about this because it was just kind of a blip on the radar. There's other big stuff going on. But in the story, Woj's details, he says since Porzingis, frustrated with the level of dysfunction within the franchise, skipped his season-ending exit meeting, the Knicks haven't made an attempt to reach him or visit him. I forgot that he had skipped that, which you've covered a million of these, as have I.

Nobody skips that. Nobody, like, unless they're just like, F you guys, right? And they just, like, I mean, nobody skips your exit meeting. It's just the way it works. You go and you meet with your, you know, your GM or your president or whoever it may be. And then you go and you do the courtesy with the media and you give your quotes about the season and I'm going to go work hard this summer and work on this and work on this and then everybody leaves for the summer. It's literally the last obligation you have

and so for Prozingus to just throw up the birds and not go to that at all. That's unbelievable, right? Well, for sure. And then remember, and technically this is of no consequence if you believe him, but remember he said he was hacked when he

tweeted Clippers. Yep. you know, I mean, there was a lot of drama. And, you know, the problem with Phil, and I've always enjoyed Phil, have a pretty decent relationship with him. But he, in New York, he's a very different guy in relation to the media than he was in L.A., a lot less accessible. And so this is another story where we'll probably get Phil's perspective on the matter in, like, six weeks.

You know what I mean? Like, he's not available. He doesn't help the fans understand. what the heck's going on. I mean, if you are, you know, John Sopranowicz's next PR guy, but if you were any PR guy who's sitting there going,

all right, boss, like our fans are flipping out. Like, can we please get you on a conference call to at least break down, like what's real and what's not and what we have in mind? But they just, they don't do that.

I don't know if that's just the organization of the way Phil is doing it. So this is going to be a mystery slash Phil Jackson pot shot party for a long time until we get clarity on what the hell is happening here. How is it possible that you take over a team? You have Carmelo Anthony and Christas Porzengis

and by the end of like a few years into your tenure, they both hate you. Like that's, it's important. You know this covering these teams. And it's crazy when we're talking about the Gilbert stuff when we started this conversation. Like the egos get so out of control with the guys in power.

it's like in the end the ones that matter are the guys on the court. And this isn't that hard to keep these guys happy or to keep them on your side. But he seems to have very little interest in creating a serious relationship with the best players on his team. I don't get it. Right. Well, then the other layer to that is pretty even more mind-blowing. And again, I covered Phil a lot in L.A. And held him in the highest regard and learned about his chemistry with his teams.

and it's just unbelievable that as a coach, he was beloved by his players. You know what I mean? Like they had their moment, but he could sit there in front of the media and take pot shots at his own players. And nine times out of ten, it didn't affect the dynamic with him and the player's relationship because they were kind of in the proverbial trenches together. And he had kind of that spiritual connection that has been chronicled in what, six Bill Jackson books at this point?

Like he had this epic connection with talent. Michael Jordan still swears by him. And now it's just as an executive, it's just the exact polar opposite. It's just something else. You mentioned earlier in our conversation that you long ago, when you had first called Jerry West, you were working at the Sacramento Bee. You still have a big, good beat on what goes on with that franchise. They are a significant player in this draft that has not been talked about a lot.

A lot of people think this is eight or ten deep. They hold five and ten, right, in this upcoming draft. Right. Do you believe they will exercise both picks, and what do you think they are hoping happens in terms of the way the draft plays out? I do. We should have done this pod in like three hours. I'm going to learn a lot more today.

I'm having a conversation with someone where I should get some better insight. I do know, I mean, they want a point guard at, you know, one of the two spots. That's a major priority. And then, likely a three. So, you know, Darren Fox, they would love to have at five, they're hoping the chips fall that way. It looks like they might get lucky and be able to make that happen. And then at 10, you know, we'll see who's there. But they're looking to continue. You know, I do think they draft in those two spots. They've been open to moving up. But, you know, to my knowledge at this point, nothing has transpired. All in all, they're feeling pretty good. You know, they avoid.

I put it in a few bullets in terms of these different trades they had made that they could have ended up hurting them more than they ended up hurting them. They could have lost their number 10 pick to Chicago, I think it was. And, you know, the pick swap with Philadelphia didn't end up hurting that much. So Vladivots has gotten himself to a place where he has a real chance to put a core together. And they're not going to contend next year, but they are on a decent path. And really, in the West, it's not a terrible place to be in because you're not taking the Warriors out anytime soon. You can tell your fans that, you know,

what do you want us to be the eight seed right now? Like, what's the consequence of that? So they're going to try to build and be opportunistic. And I like some of the moves they've made, you know, their front office. Ken Catanella came over from Detroit going into last season, you know, very smart on the cap, a guy who's respected. But then they added Scott Perry coming over from Orlando. who was part of the Rob Hennigan front office.

And Scott, part of the old Pistons tenure, you know, all those trips to the finals, the championship. He was at Joe Dumars kind of acolyte. So I think Scott's a good addition. They got a better front office than they had before, and they're trying to make it work. You think they're dedicated to the long-term building, though, now? It's the same freaking caveat that we have with every other team, like, how crazy is your owner? You know, like, if the back around a D-Bay, yeah. Exactly. So if he gets bored, I mean, I'll say this much, I've been as big a critic of the market cousins at different times as anybody, but I'm not going to lie to you. Like, you go to the games in the second half of last year in Sacramento, and the word boring comes to mind. You know what I mean? Like, so if Vecke gets overly bored at a certain point, he's not enticed enough by the young players developing, then maybe he starts getting impatient and then, you know, and they pursue some stupid trade that sets them back. You know, we'll have to wait and see.

if that's the case, because it's a very different feeling in that building without DeMarcus. The average Kings fan would grade that DeMarcus trade what right now, do you think? I mean, they still drink the Kool-Aid pretty well, so, I mean, probably a C-plus. Oh, really? So it's not roundly killed? No. I mean, they, now you test my memory. I mean, they certainly, you know, they were freaking out when Zlade didn't a very good job of explaining what actually happened in negotiations. That's the nicest way ever. The nicest way ever, because the guy took to the podium and said, I passed up a better deal two days ago.

I know, exactly. But what he was, I got a, okay, full disclosure, I do have a little bit of a soft spot for Bladi, and I also sympathetic to the communication barrier. The man went back to Serbia after his playing days, and I'm not even trying to be funny, like his English got worse. And you talk to him, you know, to people around him, and they'll say that that's something that gets in his way every once in a while because the unfortunate part is

what he was trying to tell the world, like we usually love this kind of candor from executives. Like, oh, by the way, we had two first rounders on the table, but their agent messed it up. And their agent scared the pelican and told them there's no way to Marcus is going to resign next summer. And so their agent cost us a better deal, which is a, you know, that's a fair story to share. But the way that he shared it was made it sound like, well, Milwaukee came our way with two first rounders.

And then we said, no, we like New Orleans first rounder even better, you know, made them just obviously he came off terribly. So the fans are kind of split on it. And, you know, I think it helped that the Pelicans didn't exactly surge onto contention after DeMarcus went to New Orleans. and, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty out there, too. So I think it's kind of a wait-and-see attitude. Well, I'll keep track of your Twitter and articles later today. You can follow Sam on Twitter from USA Today, Sam Amick, joining us, and you can follow them on Twitter at Sam underscore Amick and read them at USA Today.

So tell me what the Kings are going to do later today. I'll be keeping up with it. You got it, buddy. Sounds good. Always good to talk to you, Chris. Thank you, Sam. Thanks for listening to another Ringer NBA show, and we will talk to you, next Tuesday. Tringer MBA show brought to you by Hotel Tonight. Things change, the weather changes, your mood definitely changes.

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