The Ringer NBA Show - The Grand Rockets Debate Continues, the Bucks Feel the Heat, and Murray Mania | The Mismatch

Episode Date: September 1, 2020

Verno and KOC turn yet another contentious page in their ongoing Houston Rockets debate after the Rockets' embarrassing Game 6 collapse against the Oklahoma City Thunder (1:38) before discussing the predictably competitive Bucks-Heat matchup as well as the other series in the NBA playoffs (32:27). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Today's show is also brought to you by Heineken. Figuring out a way to beat the heat for Labor Day weekend this year, try an ice-cold Heineken. Heineken original logger is made with natural ingredients with pure malt and their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season all-the-time kind of beer. Pick up a pack or have it delivered this Labor Day weekend and drink responsibly. Now time for the mismatch. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varnan. and join me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor,

a.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Colm, Kevin O'Climber, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Candeeland, Kevin O'Herr. Kevin! What's going on, Chris. What a beautiful morning it is, Kev. Sure is. Got to watch some great basketball yesterday afternoon and last night. And it appears as if the story has remained the same for a lot of the season. and certainly in the playoffs, that you do not want to get in a close game with Chris Paul

and the Oklahoma City Thunder. He was unbelievable. He was absolutely unbelievable and closes out of game last night. And for the season, they have been absolutely ridiculous in these, quote, clutch games. As we know, he leads the NBA in points and the numbers are great. But the Thunder now, 32 wins and 14 losses in these. situations. And you see him last night in the fourth quarters of games three, four, and six,

which the ones that the Thunder have won in this series, he's had 10 points, eight points, and then last night, 15 points when it mattered most. And then he comes in after the game and does a interview with Jared Greenberg and he says, when it gets clutch time fourth quarter, some people are built for it. Some people shy away from it. some people are built for it man we're just going to keep pooping and i felt like maybe he was talking about somebody i don't know he might have been uh let's talk about chris paul though uh he was just magnificent in that fourth quarter and oklahoma city clearly had a game plan there too and it was just attack robert cvington every single time with chris paul they were seeking him with on ball

screens to knowing Houston would switch and Paul was just abusing him taking pull out threes or getting past him to get to the rim it was I mean really like Covington is a guy that we talk about as a great defender the truth is he is a a tremendous off ball defender he is a merely above average or good on ball defender and Chris Paul just ripped him to shreds with just his dribble penetration creating shots for himself or others I mean Chris Paul is a guy built for those moments and he always it has been throughout his career. Like, Chris Paul may never win a championship, but I will always remember him as a winner

because of his ability to close out games like we saw last night. Well, and you saw him, I was watching at the very end of the game, they are standing at the free throw line and he is turned away from the basket at Hardin and is trying to stare a hole right through it. I mean, he's looking directly at the guy.

He's looking directly at the guy. And Hardin, like, won't acknowledge him. It was the damnedest thing. And look, I talked about this. They don't like each other. They don't like each other. No. That's why the trade was made. This game was honestly like the absolute craziest of all outcomes because it was the worst of what could happen to Houston, which is being a close game.

Here, let's get this out of the way because we're going to agree on this. Russell Westbrook was an abject disaster down the stretch. Like just, I mean, an abject disaster. But he is the kind of guy that is a, give me the ball, I am going to decide our fate. And that will be good or that will be bad. And for last night, that was a disaster. And one of my criticisms has long been. I mean, it feels like Groundhog Day because this happens a lot that many times it feels like

James Harden is an innocent bystander to his demise. And last night, I mean, I post the video. He's standing at half court. tying himself up with another guy. Interestingly enough, Houston fans were tweeting me last night with their immense frustration. One of them even sent me a clip of 14 seconds left in game three. They said, for everybody that's saying this is about Westbrook, he did the same thing. He just went and stood at half court with 14 seconds left to go in the game.

And Westbrook wasn't even playing in the game. And that's game three. And it's the moment. Like, it's like, hey, this is why you're the best play. offensively in the league. This is why you are the guy on this team is because when it matters most, you say, give me the damn ball,

and I'm going to get us home. And it's happened over and over again. I watched the whole fourth quarter again this morning, you know, wide awake, fresh look at the game, and I took notes of every possession after Hardin hit his last shot, which was a step back three against Schrooter with 4.50 left in the game. That's the last time. Harden hit a shot in the game.

And rewatching it, there was that moment with 140 left where Hardin kicks the ball ahead to Westbrook who had a mismatch on Gallinari. Westbrook drove down the lane and he made an inaccurate pass to PJ Tucker for three who couldn't take the corner three shot because it was such a bad pass.

And then at that point, that's the play I think you're referring to where Hardin doesn't fight Gilgis Alexander for positioning. He doesn't fight to get the ball. And that sometimes, is a maybe it's a symptom of Hardin. Sometimes maybe it's a symptom of Houston's offense where they just have him standing around the logo and they get him the ball there

to go to work in an isolation. And I wonder how much of that is Hardin, his own mindset, not fighting for the ball, how much of it is that just like a built-up habit where that's what he always does, always does, always does, just stands around, they deliver him the ball. On that specific play, I'm talking about Hardin, Westbrook got the ball back and then he got stripped by Chris Paul.

was a great defensive play and sloppy ball handling by Westbrook, one of the many disastrous plays Russ made down the stretch of that game. With Hardin, man, I have a hard time faulting him in this game, even more after rewatching it, because with that fresh look, I saw him make multiple really strong, high effort plays, hustling back on defense to stop two transition attacks and on the Westbrook air ball, the pull up two that was, again, another horrific shot, hard and hustled to deflect the ball back in bounds and get Houston another possession.

And I look at those plays and I'm like, this guy is still a gamer. He wasn't getting the ball down the stretch here in a lot of moments. But sometimes the flow of the game doesn't get you the ball. And like we can take a minute and go through every possession if we really want to. But rewatching that, I have a hard time faulting hard in here. You think he wanted the ball when he sitting there with Gildes, Alexander at the free throw line when Westbrook takes that air ball? he didn't want the ball Hardin does that even

in like the mid-second quarter he just kind of floats around near the logo above the arc no no this is he was tying up his defender he was tying him up Gilders Alexander you're talking about the play with 55 seconds left this is my note here

100 to 100 yeah 55 seconds left Hardin screens for Westbrook I wrote why does Westbrook pull up for the deep two air ball Hardin makes the hustle play to save the ball is that the one you're talking about Yeah, he's not screen. He's screening his own man.

Yeah, because he's screening for Westbrook. That's the play. He's screening for Russell Westbrook. He doesn't run to screen for Dennis Schrooter. He ties himself up with his own man. Yeah, but he set two screens for Westbrook. I mean, we can pull up the play right now if you want to. I posted it last night.

It's ridiculous. And then Westbrook should have driven on, so like you can blame Hardin for not fighting or you can blame Westbrook for taking a pole up two-pointer instead of driving in an open lane. You only watch the fourth quarter. I don't know if you watch the rest of the game. Like, watch him how he conduct himself the rest of the game. He doesn't do that. He usually brings the ball up the court.

I know he does, which is why some of these possessions, like I said, we can go through all of them if you want to. I want to take one minute and just go through each one of the plays after he hit a shot. No, why not? Because I watched the game. Within the flow of the game, there are certain moments where there's a transition stop and there's a kick ahead or there's certain moments where Gordon gets the ball and there's a kick ahead.

There are certain moments where he can look at plays where he did get the ball. Like 240 left in the game, Hardin isolates. Does he not want the ball there? No, because he has it in his hands. He isolates and he drives into a packed paint. Why? Because nobody's defending Russell Westbrook. They're giving him the dork treatment.

They're not defending him. So you can look at Harden and say, oh, he's not taking a shot there. He turns it over. Or you can look at it and say, Westbrook is the reason why there's no where to go in the lane. Look, if you can watch the clips that I posted last night, him in the

I did. I watch all of them. Okay, when it matters most, and you truly think he wants the ball, I can't help you. I can't help you, man. I don't know what you're watching. I don't know what you're watching.

You know what happened on the last play? Again, hardened screens for Westbrook, which was the design play, Westbrook throws the ball away. And D'Antony said after the game, he was asked, why did you have Westbrook bring the ball up the court? Was the play design to get it back to James?

Dan Tony said we wanted a switch, and we were looking to kick it back to James. It's kind of our girl. to play. That's what the two guys wanted. So we went with that. Westbrook threw the ball away. Hardin didn't get it back. Is that Hardin's fault? He didn't throw, he wasn't throwing the ball to Hardin.

Exactly. He was throwing the ball to Gordon. Yes, but the play was to get the ball back to James, according to the head coach of the Houston Rockets, Mike D'ntony. Right. Whose fault is that? And James wants to make himself unavailable. He wasn't, he wasn't unavailable on that play. He was. He would get closer to his defender so you won't throw it to him. I mean, Kevin, it's not like this is the first time this has happened. This has happened over and over and over again.

This happened when McHale had to bench him against the Clippers. This happened against Golden State. When he's 2 for 11 with 12 turnovers, this happened against San Antonio without Kauai, where he's 2 for 11 at 10 points and goes home to a strip club after he lost by 40 points. It had the whole crowd cheering MVP. I mean, can you imagine as a sportsman? imagine if Tom Brady, you already did that after, you know, your team lost to the Philadelphia Eagles or something in the Super Bowl.

Last game of the season, the guys out partying wanting the whole crowd to chant MVP. I'm not going to judge that. After he lost by 40. Then he got emasculated by Steph Curry on his home court when the rant was out. I mean, this is like over and over again, like the big moments where you need him to show up, when you need him to do something big. Like, there can be a million mental gymnastics. to make excuse for the guy every single year,

but we do this every single year. And we'll see game seven again. You have a time to prove yourself. You have a time to prove yourself when it matters most because when it gets into a close game. I'll tell you this, Chris Paul was going to decide that game. End of story. I don't think it's irrational for James Harden to say,

I'm going to decide this game. I am not going to be an innocent bystander and watch Russell Westbrook piss it away. I don't watch that and see a guy that wants the ball that says, I am going to decide this game. Give me the damn ball. I saw it with Jimmy Butler.

I saw it with Chris Paul. And it's okay. Some guys don't have that killer instinct. But I don't think the guy's a killer. I don't. Yeah, if you say so, I mean, you can point to moments in which a player fails. You can point to moments in which Chris Paul turns the ball over

in the final moments of games as well. These are guys that are in positions to win big games. And James Hardin is a player right now that is so potent on office. that Oklahoma City is able to put a guy on the floor that is a zero on offense in Dord because they need to stop this guy in order to be in a position to win the game. So you can point to some of Hardin's failures late in games, and they are real. I'm not arguing those at all. You could also point to some of the moments where he has positioned his team to win,

or has been one of the reasons they have been in a game six or seven because of the clutch fourth quarter play. all I'm talking about is strictly this game last night to me is not one of those games. It's just not. I think it's fair what you're saying about some of the other performances where he maybe choked at the end or ran out of gas. He was tired, whatever it might be. Last night was not one of those games. Last night was a game where just for whatever reason you have a guy like Russell Westbrook,

and for some reason there's this perception of him like he's some great player. He's not. Russell Westbrook is not a great player anymore. Sometimes you can be. Oh, stop. A certain place, Russ would be a great player. I would buy this, except for the fact that last year, everybody tried

to convince me Chris Paul wasn't good either. Not me. And Chris Paul was done. Not me. And Chris Paul was old. And Chris Paul had lost the step. Not me. And they're going to do the same thing with this guy. Not me.

Because these guys got to do it. Did I do that? Did I do that? I don't think we did that. I don't think either of us. You absolutely talked about how Chris Paul had a terrible contract and who would trade for it. Of course, it's a bad contract.

he's making $45 million. I don't care how- This guy is carrying a team. Yeah, I know. You're not on a bad contract if you could carry a team. It's a bad deal for a guy who's going to be in his mid-30s,

but he can still be a very, very high-level player. It's very hard for a player who's making 35% of the cap to exceed his value. It's hard. I mean, just that's why. If anybody is,

it's Chris Paul. He had a 0.2% chance of making the playoffs. Point two. That was silly. I don't. I don't know about those numbers. I mean this in all serious.

I remember I had Oklahoma City and I had some bad power rankings. So let me just say that. But I had OKC like 13th or 14th in my preseason power rankings. And people like jump down my throat like, you're an idiot. OKC's going to suck. And I'm like, what do you mean? They're only going to suck if they decide to blow it up. This was a team that has a lot of talent.

There was a reasonable chance that they would. You know what I mean? I think they got too good. Yeah. I mean, they got too good before the trade deadline. They got too good. they have good talent on their roster. It's just a matter of the fact with OKC,

everybody assumed they would trade Chris Paul. There were the Miami rumors and everything else. But the fact is, is OKC had talent on their roster, giving them a 2% chance or whatever number you said was silly to me. I don't know what that deal was, but just one more thing on Chris Paul. I talked to Mike Dantone before the season started

for a story that I never ended up doing. Life happens. But Dan Tony said to me at the time, He's like, I don't understand all these people talking about Chris Paul being old, being washed. This was a situation for him that was difficult. It's a brand new offense sharing the ball, but there's no doubt that he still has it. And looking at the numbers with him last year without Hardin on the court, Chris Paul was same old Chris Paul when he wasn't sharing the ball with James Hardin.

Same old guy. And we've seen that this year. Same old guy. Same Chris Paul. Maybe not worth the $45 million contract in the final year of the deal. but he's still the same old Chris Paul. All right. We're obviously not going to agree on last night,

even if you don't want to agree on last night. The Oklahoma City Thunder have won three of these games, which have all been close games, all been close games, right, down to the wire. And in the fourth quarter of those games that I mentioned, where Chris Paul had 10 points, 8 points, 15 points. These are games 3, 4, and 6. Hardin is 5 for 18 from the field in fourth quarter and overtime.

So, I mean, this is not just like last night. Like, that's been Oklahoma City winning the game. And I don't think it's irrational for a guy that is immensely offensively talented. And by the way, Russell Westbrook didn't play in either of those in games three or four. But a guy that is that immensely talented to show up when it matters most in these games. And again, we'll find out. I mean, there's going to be a game seven. I'll tell you this, I want Chris Paul in my foxhole for game seven.

And Houston better just bust their ass because if it gets a close game, trouble time. I'm still confused, though. You're blaming James Hardin because he gave up the ball to Russell Westbrook, the guy that you think is deserving of getting touches at the end of games. You're saying, you're saying, Hard. I didn't say he was deserving of getting touches. What I said is he is wired to take that ball and say, I'm going to go win the game.

And you will either succeed or you will fail based upon that. outcome. Should Westbrook have had the ball at like 2.15 left in the game? Should he have had the ball with 120 left in the game? Should he have had the ball with 42 seconds left in the game? Or should Hardin get the ball in all of those possessions? I think Hardin should have the ball. So you and I do agree though that Hardin is the superior player who should have the ball in those moments. Correct. Okay. We're on the same page. And I think he wants no part of it. And that's why you get what you get last night. I told you this a month ago. I told you this would happen.

This is what confused. I'm going to go through each play. This is going to take a minute. We got to do this. No, we got to do this. I watch the game, Kevin. Well, clearly not. Clearly not.

He doesn't want the ball. It's not that he doesn't look, dude. Let's go get it out of bounds. Hey, I want you to stop all of this run through every play. Go get the frigging ball out from under the basket. Go over there and get the ball. All right. So, in other words, you're saying Russell Westbrook should be a small.

up shooter at the end of games. I'm saying, go get the ball and go decide the game. Okay, again, I'm asking, so you're saying, in that case, let's say Hardin becomes the guy who gets the ball every possession. Westberg should be, what should his role be in that situation? What is Westbrook's role? Why can't he slash? Why can't he move around?

I mean, he is a little different than James Harden, which is, if I don't have the ball in my hands and am able to acquire a stat, I'm just going to go stand at half court with the scorers table. That's where he goes. Like, I'm not in the play. I'm just going to go stand over here. As I said earlier, I'm delivering facts here from watching the game, and you're talking about, like, one play and making it seem like it was every possession.

What I'm saying to you, Chris... I saw him tie himself up with Gildes Alexander on purpose at the free throw line and do this phony shit like he's setting a screen. What screen is that? He's tying himself up so he won't get the ball. Like I said, you're taking one play when there was like 50 in the stretch. The two most important possessions of the game. You're talking about at 55 seconds left in the game

and the eight seconds left in the game. No, the two times the game was tied. After Paul had tied the game and they came down, he stood at half court. I posted this. Then they have another possession. They're tied 100 to 100. And Westbrook comes down and air balls that free throw line jumper, right?

That is the most phony. He's tying himself up with Gildes's Alexander so he won't get the ball. I'm sorry, Chris, but like, watch it. He's making no effort to do anything. I'm sorry, Chris, but like, watch what kind of screen is that? What basketball have you ever watched? Who sets a screen like that?

Look, you could fault his screening technique and his fault his ability to vote for positioning. But that's what he does. Dude, we're arguing in circles here. I'm trying to take our conversation in a different direction, but you keep getting back to your same talking points. So I'm just going to talk for a second here. 4.50 left in the game. Oh, my God. Hardin takes that three.

Okay? quickly go through for one minute here 423 o kc miss shruder makes a great play intercepts a tucker outlet pass 4.05 hardin first shot misses a step back three 320 westbrook brings the ball up the floor run side pick and roll misses a layup hardin doesn't get a touch 240 hardon isos this is the play i mentioned earlier drives into three defenders in the paint because nobody's defending westbrook 215 westbrook motors the ball up the floor gets gordon an open three he misses it 140 hardin kicks the ball ahead to westbrook who's going to mismatch on Gallo. This is the play I mentioned earlier,

where he made the inaccurate pass to Tucker for three in the corner. Westbrook got the ball back and got stripped. 120 left. Hardin hustled back to make a stop on an Adam's dunk attempt. Gordon outlets to Westbrook, who drove and score.

Really nice, aggressive play by Russ. 55 seconds left. Hardin screens for Westbrook, this is the play you're talking about. Westbrook takes the deep two in air ball. Hardin makes a hustle play to save the ball and get a new possession. 42 seconds left.

five seconds left in a shot clock after the inbound's pass. Careless passed by Covington to Tucker almost gets deflected away. Hardin forced to take a really tough pull up three. Eight seconds left in the game. Hardin screens for Westbrook, Westbrook throws the ball away. And as I said after the game, Dan Tony said the play was to get the ball back to James Hardin. Each one of those possessions, like I said, there's one or two you can look at and say Hardin should have fought for better positioning. Hardin should have demanded the ball.

But looking at this team, naturally, this is what's happening. all year long, all year long, Hardin and Westbrook are taking turns. Either bringing the ball up the floor or running the offense. Should Hardin have the ball every single one of those possessions? You're damn right, he should. You're damn right, he should. But to say it's because he doesn't have some killer instinct when he made some great hustle plays when he was forced to take some tough shots, I think that's just silly.

You know, and he's playing games three and four when Westbrook wasn't there? What it is more than anything else is the testament to the failures of Russell Westbrook over and over throughout his career, throwing the ball away. late in games, taking dumbass shots. It's on Russell Westbrook here, man. You can point the finger at Hardin. That's just silly. When you're also saying he's a guy that should have the ball in his hands,

that doesn't make any sense to me logically. You're saying Harden should have the ball on his hands, but it's his fault, not the fault of Russell Westbrook, the guy who's done this and choked throughout his career and not giving the ball of Kevin Durant. Because for some reason, everybody has this perception of Russell Westbrook like he's some amazing player who should have the ball in those moments. No, he shouldn't.

Westbrook should have been on the bench at the end of that game because he's not a spot-up shooter who can effectively space the floor from three. He got blown by Dennis Schroeder on the defensive end of the court. He is not a high-impact player at the end of games anymore. James Harder should have had the ball. You're right about that. But he's not the reason why they lost.

He was on the bench. He was on the bench in the fourth quarter of two of their losses already. You know the ones that Hardens 5 for 18 in in the fourth quarter? He was on the bench. He wasn't there. Where was Hardin? Where was Hardin then? Watch a Ben McLemore shoot threes?

I mean, what are we talking about? He's 5 for 18 in the losses. Yeah, you can point to this 5 for 18 number. You can keep pointing at that if you want to, but you're also talking about the guy who shoulders. Two of the games, Westbrook on there. You're talking about the guy who shoulders the entire offense with Westbrook out to the point of having Westbrook, you need a secondary ball hand with persons.

Otherwise, otherwise hardened as a guy doing it all by himself. There's always an excuse for him. It is the thing. There's always an excuse. Dude, I don't get it, dude. Like, Hardin is such an elite offensive player that Oklahoma City is willing to put a guy on the floor for 30 minutes who's a zero on offense.

Because they need Dorts' defense in order to stop the guy who can make this a series for Houston. If you want me to deny that James Hardin is the number one scorer in the league or an exceptionally talented offensive player, that's a ridiculous thing for me to deny. Of course. Thank you. I'm glad we agree.

Of course he's outstanding. He is also a shrinking violent. That's what he is. Really? He's a shrink over and it's his whole career, Kevin. Hell, he's shrunk in the NCAA tournament for Arizona State. He shrunk in the finals when he played for Oklahoma City. He shrunk against the Clippers.

He shrunk against the Warriors. He shrunk against the Spurs. He shrunk against the Warriors again. And now here we are. It's Groundhog Day. We're going to do this every year in the playoffs for the guy's whole career. And I hope I can't wait for game seven. I can't wait. I can't wait to hear the mental gymnastics that are going to have to take place if the guy ends up losing.

Because he is an exceptionally talented player, but I don't think when it matters most, when you need it, when you need it, when Chris Paul gets that ball last night, when Jimmy Butler gets that ball last night, when you need it most is he's there for you. What is the great James Harden playoff moment, you remember. I remember him going to a game six and a game seven against these just incredible Warriors teams. Oh, okay. That's what I remember.

I remember a Houston team that went to a game seven against a Warriors team in 2017, 18. Yeah, they blew the lead. They did. Yeah, you're right. But it's not like you can put that all on James Hardin. It's all your fall. It's not. James Hardin.

He's the best player, though. Yeah, but James Hardin in that series, Chris Paul is out hurt. Hardin has to. shoulder everything again in that series. Look, Hardin has strong in certain moments. I'm not denying that. Just like you're not denying that Hardin is one of the game's greatest offensive players that we've ever seen.

I'm not denying that. But to say like it's all his fault that Houston has lost some of these series and not put it on the fact that sometimes it's just bad luck. A guy gets hurt. Sometimes it's just the fact that Mori, like he hasn't been able to find guys who can shoot like 40 plus percent from three. It's hard, man. It's hard to build a winning roster.

Paul, the best clutch player in the NBA. And then Chris Paul got hurt in Missed Game 6 and 7. I mean, let's not act like, that's the one playing them and beating them right now. We're talking about a couple years ago against the Warriors when Hardin goes like 12 for 29 in a game 7 without Chris Paul. Right. Well, then the next year they had Chris Ball and they were against a team that didn't have Kevin Durant. What I'm saying is, is that to put it all on Hardin. I didn't put it all on him.

You're putting most of it on Hardin. No, I'm saying that I want my best player to want the ball when it matters most and deliver when it matters most. Like I said, we just went through every possession. And like I said, you can go through every possession of every big game for the last eight years. When our YouTube viewers see those clips on top of what I said, they're going to be like, yeah, yeah, you know what? Sometimes the flow of the game doesn't get the ball to the player. Should it? You can argue yes.

But there were a lot of situations there where it was like kick the ball ahead, early transatlantic. position play or Russ just took the shot. And he will. And he shouldn't. Just like Paul did when Hardin was on the team. They're built for it. And Paul is better at delivering than Westbrook is, but they want that ball. Can I just say this instead of arguing in circles about Hardin, I do think Houston's system

as great as it is, I wish sometimes they would deviate from what they do. And that's two things. at the end of the game when Covington switches onto Chris Paul Shruder set the screen for him knowing Houston was just going to give him what they wanted I don't understand why Houston doesn't fight that sometimes

sometimes in certain situation you need to deviate from what you do and that's true on defense there with Covington just getting shredded by Paul and then on offense there was a possession I believe it was early in the fourth quarter where Hardin drove into Stephen Adams for a heavily contested layup and I'm like

man I wish he would take the floater there that's true for you know guys who play off the ball too that are you know more shooters like covington sometimes i wish houston would open up the mid-range late in games in the end they're in a game seven i mean look they're going to be favored they're going to be a five-point favorite as they should be um as much as you want to downplay westbrook nobody was shitting on westbrook when they beat them by a thousand in game five and by the way last night westbrook I believe had a higher field goal percentage than Hardin in that game. And I know he made those turnovers down the stretch,

but I think what do you have, maybe two more turnovers or one more turnover than Hardin? I mean, you'd think that it actually matters when this stuff happens. But as much you want to downplay him, the guy's a nine-time all-star, and Hardin is the number one scorer in the league. And they're playing against Chris Paul. And like, it's Paul versus them.

That's what it is. And they have the ability. Oklahoma City can't trounce them, but they can trounce Oklahoma City. We've seen it. I mean, we just saw it in game five. I mean, they humiliated them. Because they have James Hardin. Humiliated them, huh?

I said because they have James Hardin. Right. Yeah, maybe because AJ's Hardin. So, I mean, look, we agree Houston should win game seven. The series should be over. I mean, if we're being totally honest here, but this speaks to, like I said, some of the flaws with Houston, the fact that they don't have a great shooting team. They have actually a below average shooting team around Hardin.

And then Oklahoma City, I mean, so much of it is a credit to their shot makers. Chris Paul, Dennis Schrooter, especially Gildes Alexander, has not had a great series, but he's somebody who could have a big game as well. So you can't rule out, okay, see here in this series. You just can't. Before we move on, let's hear from today's sponsors. The Runger NBA show is presented by Fandall Sportsport, the official sports betting partner of the Ringer Podcast Network.

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21 plus and present in New Jersey or Pennsylvania, new users only must wager on designated boost market. Next bonus, $200. See full terms at sportsbook.Fandul.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler. Today's episode of the mismatch is also brought to you by Heineken. Figuring out how to beat the heat for Labor Day weekend this year, whether you're headed outside safely or staying indoors, Be sure to enjoy the always seasonal Heineken original laugher.

Heineken original logger is made with natural ingredients with pure malt and their famous A-y-Yeast, which makes Heineken at all-season all-the-time kind of beer. Savor the last days of summer with an ice-cold, crisp Heineken, the perfect way to cap the last moments of summer. Pick up a pack or have it delivered this Labor Day weekend and drink responsibly. You and I were texting yesterday in the afternoon before all of this happened, because it was an unbelievable day of basketball. I mean, this was, that first Easter conference finals game with Miami and Milwaukee was a sensational game.

This is a great matchup, which I think has great star power, and will put these teams really to the test. This is a gauntlet for Janus to go through, and he came up small yesterday in the fourth quarter. I mean, Janice, who has got a lot on this plate as the MVP, as the defensive player of the year, all these things. He's got three points, one for four from the field, one for four from the free throw line, three turnovers. And for the first time since March, he played a game where he played over 20 minutes and scored less than 20 points in the game. He had 18 points yesterday. Interestingly enough, the last time that that happened, when I said, said March, a loss to the Miami Heat.

And you and I were talking about this. They may just have the goods to make his life hell. And I know you did a video about this. They got a bunch of Rottweilers on that team. I kept saying this is the team I don't want to see. I think they're going to give them a hell of a fight. And look, if Jimmy Butler's dropping 40 and shooting a million percent from the field, then you've got a real, real problem on your hands.

Because that was superstar stuff. You and I have been saying it for months now, Chris, when talking about the Eastern Conference playoffs, that this is going to be a major challenge for the Bucks to get to the finals. And that's not a knock against them. It's merely a compliment to their competition with Miami and Toronto or Boston next round. If the Bucks make the finals, man, it's going to be one heck of an accomplishment for Janus and that entire roster. Because of what we saw in that game one, Miami's built to beat the Bucs. They're built to give Yanis trouble.

They did a great job of defending him without falling, defending everybody on that team without falling. They did an incredible job. Just really masterful building a wall and transition and preventing some of those easy baskets that Janus, or rather baskets that Janus makes look easy when he's stretching his feet from the free throw line to the basket. They did a great job of just helping and throwing different looks at Janus, having BAM on ball sometimes, having him help over off ball at another.

situations. From a defensive perspective, I'm not sure there's anything more that Miami could have done in that game. And then you look at Jimmy Butler. I tweeted this yesterday. It's a lot easier to score in the playoffs when your best player can shoot from the perimeter. And we did see that difference with Jimmy Butler versus Yonisant de Cumbo. Butler, I mean, what a winner, man. He is something else. 40 points. He outscore, think about this, folks. He outscored the bucks 13 to 8 in the last five minutes. Him. No other player.

Jimmy Butler outscored the bucks 13 to 8 in the last five minutes of that game. One guy. It's unbelievable. And I saw you tweet about the Philly thing. I mean, what the hell? Well, forget me. Forget me.

Joel and B tweeted about it. I mean, God. How? How do you watch that and then think, I mean, they paid Tobias Harris. It's unbelievable, man. Unbelievable. If I was the owner of that team, I'd have called my,

I'd have fired my whole front office last night. You guys had 40 points. And weird thing that's happened in these playoffs, and we've seen a lot of guys elevate their games. But I was reading this this morning, because it seems like, obviously, you saw Jimmy Butler pull it up from threes. And that's not him.

That's not what he typically brings to the table. This season, shot 24% from three. In the playoffs, so far, he's shooting 67% from three. That's funny. 67% from three in the playoffs so far for Jimmy Butler. Only six of nine, only nine shots to be fair. I got it.

Six of nine, yeah. Still, I mean, he shoots 20% during the year. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, he would typically hit two of those nine. instead he's knocking them down. And he ends up going 5 for 5 yesterday in those last five minutes of the game when he outscored the bucks 13 to 8.

We talked about game planning earlier with what Oklahoma City wanted to do against Houston. They just wanted to attack Covington. They got the switch every time. Saw the same thing with Miami versus Milwaukee. They were seeking out George Hill. Oftentimes Chris Middleton started possessions on Butler. And by the way, Middleton was horrible on defense throughout this entire. game. He was really

lacked focus off ball, missed cutters, missed, you know, his open man. And then on the ball, he was not effective at stopping penetration either. And yet, Miami preferred Butler going at George Hill, who was even worse than Middleton. And I wonder if maybe one of the adjustments

Milwaukee needs to make is maybe you fight over that screen, maybe you blitz or you pressure Butler instead of freely giving the switch because George Hill couldn't stop Butler at all. And that was clearly what the heat wanted to do. They have never, they have not been right this entire bubble. No, they haven't.

We saw the bucks. They were a devastating team. They have not been right this entire time. They just haven't. They haven't looked like themselves. Like what we saw during this easy, because they, they were a team that was one of the best teams we've seen point differential

wise in NBA history. And I, I don't think that that is just a facade. I think that for whatever reason, this team has not been able to get it back together since they have been in Orlando. though and look like they did during the year, you know? And let me say this real quick on the Miami front,

because I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago during the season, and you watch him yesterday. I really think, like, for right now, maybe the most underrated guy in the league is Dragach. He's awesome. He is so awesome, and it's just kind of like, oh, yeah, they have Goran Dragich on their team. And he's not, you know, they talk about Jimmy,

talk about Bam, they talk about Hero, They talk about Duncan Robinson. This guy is, he and he is a flat gamer too, Drogich. What a player he's been for that Miami team. He's 27 points on 9 of 15, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, only two turnovers, and many other situations in which there was potential assist or secondary, a hockey assist. He was, I mean, he is so good in ball screens.

And I got to tell you, I got to tell you something this could make you laugh. So a quick side note from basketball. football. I have been a, like a sports collector my whole life. Sports cards, autographs, you know, whatever. My son is now of the age where he collects. And so I've gotten on this trip where I'll go and I'll try to bid in auctions, et cetera, on eBay for different cards. So I got, one of the ones that I got was a John Moran, like a perfect, a gem mint John Moran, right, for his collection. And so anyway, I get it sent to me. And then the guy messages me.

And he says, this isn't Chris Werner from the ringer, is it? And I'm like, buying a mint job rant? Like, yeah, unless there's another, I think, come on, man. And so anyways, Kai Q is the, is the handle. So he messed me and he says, I put an extra card in there that I think you'll enjoy. I'm a huge fan of the pod, you and Kevin O'Content. And I was like, thanks. So anyways, it comes in the mail yesterday.

I open it up and there's my Jim Mint, John Morant, and I open the rest of the package. This dude sent me like this green insert hologram looking Brooke Lopez. So you know that's a real listener. Unbelievable. Thank you so much for doing that. The best. I opened it up, and I was so excited. I was like, oh, hell no.

And he said, I thought, I thought you'd like a card of one of the great defenders of all time. I was like, this is whack. And I think Boodenholzer forgot how great Brooke Lopez is. He's been listening to you too much. How does Brooke Lopez play only 27 minutes? He ain't built for it either. And Lopez was really good in that game.

I mean, even you have to admit, Lopez was great. He was, look, Yonard. just wasn't doing anything by the time they got the halftime. I'll tell you what, I'm surprised by two decisions, Booden holes are made in that game. Why is Lopez not getting more touches and more minutes? And secondly, why is Pat Connethon playing 25 minutes and not,

you're not giving more minutes to Wesley Matthews? What is going on here? I don't want to go back to a former argument, but we argued about this. And you built up Middleton a lot. And I kind of tore him down. And I said, who's your third best guy?

And that's when we got into the Brooke Lopez thing or Eric Bledsoe. Who was out, of course. They ain't got much. I have a hard time with Bledsoe because on one hand, I'm like,

they sure could have used him against Butler in that situation instead of switching George Hill onto him. But I say that, and yet I'm like, they probably don't do that. They're probably just attacking Middleton, who was horrific on defense.

On the other hand, I'm like, Bletso is a poor shooter. And that's another guy from Miami to help off of, happily help off of, and pack the pain even more. You want Bledsoe shooting the ball. George has a better shooter than him.

So it's like a difficult balance here for Milwaukee in terms of the expectations of what you're getting back with Bledsoe. There's good and there's bad. Let's hit these others real quick. We have a game seven tonight, Kev. And this series has been, I mean, I don't know how to, I don't really know the words for that. Like, whatever my expectations were for the series.

and we, I'm not ashamed of this, buried the nuggets, right? Especially with their down three, one. After we buried the jazz after game. Right. We buried the jazz and then we buried the nuggets. And they have put on this amazing series and here's where I think

we deserve a pass on burying them. What we did not foresee was a circumstance where Jamal Murray becomes one of the greatest offensive players in the history of the NBA. This guy over the course of the last three games, Jamal Murray has averaged 47 points a game, shooting 64% from the field,

all while getting eight rebounds, seven assists a game, and five total turnovers. I was looking to do this. So just for point of reference, because I do think sometimes this gets lost. So Jamal Murray, Kev, is a good point. who the criticism has been up and down, right? He'll give you a 30.

And then he might give you a 14. And he even had two duds in this particular series. Games two and three. Yeah, but he has gone absolutely off the meter great. And this year, Jamal Murray, who does have a lot of, you know, I mean, look, the guy's a very good player in the NBA. But Jamal Murray averaged 18 points per game, all right, in the NBA season. So if we are just saying, when I went and looked this up, the equivalent of it would be like Dennis Schroeder, Kelly Ubre, Evan Fornier, Lou Williams, Derek Rose, Devante Graham.

These are the guys that are the 18 point per game guys throughout this season. So if one of those guys started averaging 47 points a game, I mean, he's a good player, good offensive. player, but he shot under 35% from three this year. And it's like an 18 point per game guy who all of a sudden turned into a 50 point per game guy. And so I think we should get a little bit of a pass on this because not being able to foresee an 18 point per game scorer, I mean, this is, it's like nothing I have ever seen in my life, honestly.

Like I'm not trying to be prisoner of the moment. This is unfathomable what's happening. I've been texting a lot of people the last couple days about the series because I'm doing a video. The next video, the restart out on Wednesday is about Mitchell versus Murray and just analyzing their games, how they've developed and all that. And it's really interesting how much different feedback there is in terms of why is this happening? How is this happening? And just to quickly go through a couple of them. One, the gym.

No fans, you know, no distractions there. open gym. Maybe some of these guys are better rested after the time off during the hiatus and the time off last week when the players were protesting. Maybe not staying up as late, messing with your Instagram stories. Lack of travel as well.

Lack of travel. There's so many factors that could be going into the hot shooting that we're seeing from Mitchell and Murray, never mind from many other players across the entire league too. Secondly, and this I think is probably the main one, the defensive coverages that we're seeing from both Denver and Utah,

Gobert and Yokic are both play a drop style of pick and roll, where they drop down to or near the paint. And that's just giving Murray and Mitchell wide open pull-up jumpers. So you combine both of these factors with better rests, you know, open gym and the fact Utah and Denver are inviting them to shoot, sometimes this is what you get. But with that said, I'll be looking for in game seven tonight. Do Utah and Denver make any adjustments there,

or do they continue doing what they've been doing in the entire series? Because one of the things brought up to me by one assistant coach was he would like to see Gobert taken off of Yolkich and put him on somebody like Jeremy Grant. And in that situation, you know, maybe you have Grant just screening for Murray instead. But the fact is that that does take you out of your two-man game with Murray and Yokic. It takes you out of what you normally want to do if you're Denver. And same thing on the other side. Maybe put Yokic on Rorice O'Neill and have somebody else on Gobert.

Either maybe Utah takes the bait and has Gobert post up instead. Or maybe, you know, you're having somebody else on a screening action and spacing isn't the same. And Gobert is just kind of sitting in the dunker spot instead of rolling down the lane. And this opens up potential new issues if you do that. But his point was, is that by playing the same type of coverage nearly every possession, you're giving these guys the same look. There's no needing to adjust on the fly for them. He would like to see some variation in their defensive coverages.

And that made total sense to me. It's so plain Jane from both these teams. Will either of them switch it up in game seven to make a difference in impacting Mitchell and Murray, who are basically getting wherever they want on the court? because they know what's common. Yeah, and I think you got to, you also have to say a little prayer that Jamal Murray stopped shooting absolute fireballs

because there's only so much you can do when a guy is. I mean, he is just pistol hot. He wants the thing and it's impossible. That's part of it. Just pray. What do you do? I just pray that he ain't making everything he shoots because that was just crazy the other night.

The other thing is, if you're Quinn Snyder, and do you just roll out your five guys for 48 friggin' minutes and say no breaks. I swear, he played like seven guys the other night. He tried to play George Niyang. George Nying was like minus 20 in like 20 minutes. It was outrageous. He couldn't even play seven guys without one of them killing him,

killing him in the amount of time he's out on the floor. So he may just have to say like Joe, Rudy, Mike, Donovan, Royce, you're going 48 tonight because I got nothing on this bench that can help me. I tried to play Tony Bradley a little. I tried to play George Niyang, and I got slaughtered. The second I put them in the game, y'all, they're all going 48 minutes tonight. Good luck. Leave it out there.

Yeah, I mean, like we did talk about, this is something that, you know, we're right about. They have a short bench. Yes. They don't have a lot of options in Quincyner knows it, thus the short and rotation. But, man, like, obviously this series comes down to, Yokic said it after the game. What's the difference, you know, for you guys winning these last two? he's like, Jamal. That is the difference. It's Jamal Mari and his performance. Last one,

because we're going to have a lot of time to talk about this series, and we'll get way more in-depth on Friday on it. Boston and Toronto did play their game one. This was not a great basketball game. This was a Celtic domination for the majority of that game. This never got in peril. This never got tight. Marcus Smart was absolutely unbelievable. you know, this was not some kind of superstar Tatum, and they didn't need him to be superstar Tatum, because they just kind of had everything going their way. A great game plan, and Toronto couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.

You know, some of the, and their key players, i.e. Van Vleet and others, were just a mess from the field. Yeah, yeah. They just really, really, really struggled. Do you think that was just a, I mean, this has been a historical thing with Toronto in these game ones, obviously adjustments will be made. Do you think that was just a game one thing and that this is going to even out rather quickly?

Or do you think that Toronto is up against maybe more than they bargained for with this Celtics team just matchup-wise? How much do you take away from that game one? Because I thought Toronto played like shit, honestly. Yeah, I mean, it's a little of both. I think Boston had a really strong game plan in that game. And part of it is just that guys like Siakum and Van Vleet need to be better. You know, Seacom ever since January is shooting only 32% from three,

way down from his hot streak early in the year. And Boston is kind of just exploiting that. They are happy to let him shoot threes, happy to let them especially take pull-up three-pointers. So part of it is just game planning on Boston's part. and can these Toronto guys, you know, whether it's Van Vliet or Ciacom, respond, and actually start hitting some of the shots that they may normally hit in the case of Van Vleet or have hit for hot stretches in the past like Ciacom?

But, you know, Brad Stevens did have a great game plan entering that game, and Nick Nurse is one of the best in making game-to-game adjustments. So I don't think it's worth, like, over-analyzing one game, because this is a series, it's going to be a series of adjustments from game to game, from quarter to quarter. So does Nick Nurse do anything in this game to change things up? Maybe. It's not like they didn't get quality shots in that game one.

But we'll see tonight. I look forward to seeing what both of these guys come out with. It wouldn't shock me if Stevens has a preemptive change either. It still feels like six or seven games, right? This is going to be long series. They're pretty evenly matched. I think so, yeah. I'd be very shocked if somebody disposes of the other quickly.

And the last thing before we get out of here, is I have to stand up for a small market. Devonte Graham getting two votes in Most Improved, not like I cared deeply about Most Improved, but that was so messed up when I saw that yesterday. Brandon Ingram won. I got no problem. Brandon Ingram took a step forward, right?

But Devonte Graham went from four points a game to 18, and from 2.6 assists to 7.5, raised this three-point percentage, almost 10% this year. and became like a real player in the league who was having some big, big games and breaking some three-point records. And I just wish the guy would have gotten more credit

for what he did this year because we're truly talking about who improved. Like, Brandon Ingram, you and I, this is a number two pick in the draft. You and I were both high on him. And this was his destiny. Defante Graham is the kind of guy that just isn't in the league in a couple of years,

you know, and unless you think, turn into what he turned into. And so, but two votes, two for most improved player? I saw him yesterday post that with the eye roll emojis, two votes, and I felt bad for the guy. I wish the NBA would define who's eligible for this award because I voted Luca and Trey as my top two. I thought they made, Luca made the leap from a very, very good player to an elite player who was worthy of MVP consideration, which to me is the toughest.

improvement for any player to make. But I also see the logic for Ingram or Bam. I see the logic for Devante Graham or Duncan Robinson, who only got one vote. Robinson went from a guy barely playing to somebody who is playing heavy minutes for a very good Miami team and performing at an elite level as a shooter, already one of the best shooters in the game.

So, you know, how do you define this award? So much of it comes down to the voters' own individual perspective here. And a lot of people say they'll never vote for second year players because second year players should get better. Some people say, like you've mentioned, I'm not going to vote for a top five pick because this is who they are supposed to be. I mean, there's so many different definitions here of what the award is and historically so many different types of guys have won the award. Yeah. I'm not sure what it is. And part of me wonders if maybe like the NBA should make certain guys eligible or something.

I don't know. I mean, I, because it's very confusing with the way different people vote for it. Well, and obviously, just from, you know, you having a tremendous impact on me and listening to the, you know, when I listen to you talk on the show, I mean, I probably would have voted for Brooke Lopez. I mean, to turn into Bill Russell after a decade in the NBA, I mean, who could be more improved? Bill Russell with a three-pointer. Yeah, Bill Russell with a three-pointer. By the way, can I just mention when you mentioned Duncan Robinson? I was reading a story about him this week.

I just remember him from, you know, playing at Michigan. But like, he was not a big-time high school player at all. And then he didn't get recruited by anybody and was at a Division III school. How about this? Division three. His story is crazy in this day and age. He went to a Williams College is where he went. And then he went from this Williams College, a Division III school, to Michigan, and was there.

And then obviously, you know, helped them to their great success. But, I mean, you just don't hear of anything like that anymore. I didn't realize that he was, you know, not recruited at all and went to a Division III school and then ends up with John B-Line at Michigan. and then now look. He's playing like real playoff minutes for a team that might be in the East Final for good to say.

It's a cool story. Hell of a player, man. He's good. One last thought before we go. Just something to watch for tonight. The amount of corner threes that Toronto attempts. Oh. They only had six in game one

in their team that ranked them the top ten of corner threes attempted per game. And that's because of what Boston does. They did this earlier in the season against multiple teams. they did in game one against Toronto, and that's helping off the above the brake shooter and not the corner shooter, which is traditional when you're bringing the help side defender over to stop dribble penetration.

Will Toronto have an adjustment there or Boston get exploited in other ways? Just something to look for tonight. Can't wait. All right, that is going to do it for another episode of the mismatch. Thank to Isaac Lee as always. Kevin, I will talk to you on Friday. I can't wait.