The Ringer NBA Show - The Hawks Eke Out Incredible Comeback Win Against the 76ers and the Clippers Take Game 5 Without Kawhi Leonard. Plus: The Coaching Carousel Starts Turning Early. | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

The Ringer’s Jonathan Tjarks joins Justin, Rob, and Wos live on Greenroom Wednesday night to talk about the Hawks incredible comeback against the 76ers to win Game 5 (0:42) and the Clippers win over the Jazz without Kawhi Leonard (15:36). Then they get into the host of coaching and front office maneuvers that came out on this busy Wednesday, including the Pelicans firing head coach Stan Van Gundy (35:55), the Mavericks firing general manager Donnie Nelson (46:52), and the Wizards firing head coach Scott Brooks (54:50). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Guest: Jonathan Tjarks Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The NFL draft may be over, but the Ringer NFL show isn't going anywhere. On Mondays, join Kevin and Nora as they look ahead to the 2021 season. And on Wednesdays, check out Flying Coach Season 2 with NFL Network's Peter Schrager and Ram's head coach Sean McVeigh. The two longtime friends are joined by guests from around the sports and entertainment world to discuss the latest NFL news, tell stories from their careers, and break down the game from their unique perspectives. Check out the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

On today's episode of group chat, you will hear Charks's audio drop. Just briefly, we had a little bit of a card reader error in the midst of one of our green room chats. So if you hear him sound a little bit different for a little bit and maybe not at all, that's why. But we talked about a lot of stuff on this episode. So enjoy. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and we have a few things to talk about tonight. joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Waz,

Jonathan Charks is back with us, as are a host of other people on Green Room. Thank you for joining us for this live chat. I think I see what is it wise? 5,000 people in this chat already? It's more like five. One of them is Sasha, who's our producer. Listen, if people can pretend that they have a top podcast on Apple,

I think we can pretend that a lot of people are in this Green Room chat. But I think we're going to be doing a lot of these over the postseason. So stay tuned for that. More Ringer MBA people and some other people, Bill and whatnot, we'll be jumping on here. But tonight, good God, a lot of things happen in the NBA.

We're going to get to some of the coaching fires, the GM fires, Chris Paul having COVID, Kwai Leonard having an injury. Who else am I missing here? There was a bunch. Scott Brooks sitting let go. Come on. Reggie Jackson being the best point guard in the NBA playoffs.

Yes. Group chats, Reggie Jackson, for sure. That's right. First, we're going to talk about some of these games that happened tonight. First question, Charks. More surprising event from this evening, the Sixers collapse, or playoff P, Paul George, actually rising to the occasion in this game? I don't know, surprising, enjoyable, most enjoyable. Utah and Philadelphia.

I mean, how much fun is it to call a team of fraud? It's just so much fun. All right, let's start with the Sixers here, because I think that's probably the thing that's going to have the most ripple effects. I'm honestly still trying to recover from this. Like, it took me a half of that Clippers game to even really register what had just happened

because the Sixers are up 26 points. You think that there's no way possible that this could happen again and they could blow another game. And then all of a sudden they did the improbable. I think Seth Curry, not Steph Curry. There we go. That's the one.

And Joel Embed, were the only Sixers to make. a field goal in the entire second half was what's what do you think about after this one Ben Simmons um there was a lot of caping for Ben Simmons on this pod I won't name Pete names Rob Moly. There was a lot of caping for Ben Simmons on this pot and I mentioned I was like look in these playoff games man you need shot creation from the perimeter and this guy he's not a center he's not Rudy Gobert he's not Joelle Embed. He's a a freaking perimeter player.

He's a guard. He's a wing. Whatever you want to call it. He's somebody who they're going to have to count on when push comes to shove in a playoff game to do stuff with the ball in his hands from the perimeter. And this kid is deathly afraid

of the basketball. Deathly afraid. And, you know, I got 4K like the rest of you guys. I can see his face as I'm watching the game as he walks up. to the free throw line. And I'm like, this dude, don't want any parts of this.

And whatever. People could say, Doc Rivers should, you know what I mean? Hit the emergency panic button first, et cetera, et cetera. You know, they melted down and couldn't score against the likes of Lou Will and Trey Young, like a Lou Will Tray Young lineup was just getting stops. But to me, it's like, yo, you're freaking flashy franchise guy who's supposed to be some generational talent on the wing could do absolutely

dick tonight when you needed him the most. Rob, what do you respond to dick with? All right. Why, as you say he has to make plays in these moments,

I disagree. Because the loophole is, if you're so bad at free throws, your coach pulls you out of the game. You don't have to do shit. You get to sit there and watch. I, like,

I mean, Look, this is a much more complicated game than Ben Simmons getting intentionally fouled and missing a bunch of free throws. But is it reductive to blame it on that? Yes. Is it also brutal that that happened? Absolutely. Like, there's so many embarrassing things in this game from the Sixers, that being chief

among them. But really, you know, if this isn't the kind of game that disqualifies a team as a title contender, it's pretty damn close. Mm-hmm. So there are a lot of things, as you mentioned. I mean, we could talk about Doc Rivers, we could talk about Ben Simmons, we could talk about the bench. Sharks, for you, like, what is the thing that's standing out here as the thing that really did the Sixers in in this game? Yeah, I mean, it's like which deep-rooted structural issue we want to talk about this game reveal.

There's like five, you know? It's like therapy, yeah. I think first off, to go off what Was was saying, I'll go say Ben Simmons is a center. Like, let's get that straight for the beginning. He's a small ball five who should be the screaming out of pick and roll. He's not a point card. That's obvious. And I mean, I would say, and I guess to make a Doc Rivers joke, this is the worst collapse since Clippers Nuggets last year.

Like, right? No, I mean, I think that's right on the head there. Doc now, his legacy has really taken a turn here. I know he has the title. And for a lot of people, you're just, you're minted by that, right? There's really nothing you could say. You're kind of bulletproof. But he's really putting that to the test here, considering the amount, the sheer volume of

collapse that are now in his resume, uh, Waz, if they don't win this game, do they fire Doc? And I'll even say something further. Does Doc ever get another job in the NBA again? I think Doc Rivers is so well liked and respected amongst the player class that he'll always have a job, right?

We've seen Stan Van Gundy get canned after one year and he's the anti-doc amongst players. Like he just gets a bad rap amongst the guy. So I think he'll always get a job. And honestly, so long as the New York Knicks exists as an organization, a guy with a name like Doc Rivers will always have a home somewhere. But, you know, it goes beyond Doc. And this team just like, like, you already did the choke job the game before. You already blew an extremely huge lead. And you guys are playing this game.

Like, they were dominant in the first half on both ends of the floor. Right? Like they look like the team that everybody told me that they were this entire postseason. They're giving Trey Young fits and pick and roll with their long wings. And B. just, he was just being completely mean and disrespectful to Clint Capella. Like, bro, you're supposed to be some all-MBA level defense type of guy. I'm destroying you. And it just looked like, oh, okay, the Sixers are putting it together. And then all of a sudden they just throw everything in the trash.

And, you know, you can't tell me that the free throw line parade doesn't match. matter. And as far as Doc, look, if this kid's going to make 30-something million dollars a year and he's ostensibly, allegedly your second best player, you can't yank him. It just sends a terrible message to everybody. And, you know, if his confidence is already waning, why the hell are you going to yank him and be like, all right, you're not good enough to even play anymore? I think Doc has to play this kid and he has to take ownership of it. Here's the counterpoint, I guess, for the Ben Simmons, which I don't disagree with you, really. I mean, We've talked about it probably now for what, three, four years, that they probably should have been split up by now.

I'm curious if this doesn't go well, if they ultimately will this offseason. The counter is this series Ben and Embed on the floor together plus 43. And so naturally, I think you start looking at their backups because the bench here, I think, was a complete catastrophe. And you have to start wondering, like, what is the root cause here? Is it that they just, like, don't have enough guys in reserve? Because I thought they had a pretty good bench. they have George Hill, they have thigh bowl out there, Dwight Howard will give you five fouls, like, immediately.

Charks, what do you think? Well, this is the playoffs. Like, those names you just listed off. Like, that's fine. The problem is, like, they can't have Ben Simmons playing without Joel and Bede, right? They need your two all-stars to carry your bench for you.

They can't do that. I mean, it's, I think goes back to Ben and Joel, ultimately. And, like, does this thing get broken up if they lose? What they really need is a stretch big instead of Dwight Howard. Because then you can play Ben Simmons with this. second unit because the Simmons Dwight minutes have been bad all year you put Dybul with them there's no spacing out there and so you you want to be able to stagger Simmons and Embed and you just can't right now but it's it is unfathomable how bad

these backup minutes have been I mean Joelle and beat is one of the best players in the world and this group of this the second unit is bad enough to completely outweigh that like that's that's gutting to an organization that's put itself in this position that had the best starting lineup in the NBA this season. And this is where they end up getting roasted by Lou Williams. I mean, that might be their season right there. I'll say this, though, yeah, the bench was bad. But in the fourth quarter, down the stretch of the game, you were playing Simmons, Embed, and Thibel together. Like, how can you space the floor at a big playoff game with those three guys on the floor together? Like, even the bench or not, like these

lineups just don't work. They don't make sense. Is this a flaw of coaching? Is it the front office's to put them in the situation where they don't have a lot to turn to after flirting with like practically all of the big names on the market or is this something else. Rob, what do you think? I mean, like, clearly the bench is incomplete. In terms of, like, Doc didn't do himself any favors in this game, but I don't want to excuse how bad the Sixers defense was in the fourth quarter. And a lot of that is just like Joel Embed is clearly not able to play full games at a

dominant level right now. He completely shut down Trey Young's pick and roll in the first half. The Sixers defense was unbelievable to start this game. And then they hit a wall. Joel starts getting tired. He starts passing out of plays where he would have been beasting guys to the rim in the first half. He's not showing out on pick and rolls. The defense isn't there to cover all these shooters.

It just completely fell apart in a way that you can have any coach in the world in that situation. And you're going to lose that game. It almost doesn't even matter how bad the benches if your starters aren't going to compete and defend in one of the biggest games of their season. All right, let me ask this point blank here. So clearly not having some sort of backup closer, a Jimmy Butler type to back up and beat, especially in these late minutes when unfortunately for him, Clint Capella was right. And he did look incredibly fatigued out there. And he has this entire series.

Chirks, do you think that the Sixers, I'm going to put you on the spot here, the Sixers will ever win a title or maybe even make the finals without having that second guy, more of a closer Jimmy Butler type, as opposed to a Ben, Simmons to back up Joel? No, I don't think so. I would think you got to trade Ben Simmons for that player this summer or next summer. Do you think we're at that point? I would have been that point two years ago.

I would have kept me and tried to Ben Simmons. So that point I was already been here. Now, that point is on like pre-K now. Right. Rob, what were you going to say? I think they could have done it this year if Joel had been healthy. Like, Joel is the closer. He's an unbelievable, like, face-up mid-range play.

he can do all the crunch time stuff you want guys to do. He's great free-throw shooter in case he gets fouled. He can ISO, he can pass. Can you just say he was too tired to do that in the fourth quarter? That's not. Well, I'm saying that's because of his injury. If you have a torn meniscus, everything takes an extra 25% more energy than you're used to. Yeah, he needs to be in peak shape.

He needs to be healthy. Who knows if those things will ever be true at a level where he can dominate series after series and get to the finals. But he has the profile of a player who could do it. He just isn't doing it right now because he's hurt. Right. Was, let me ask you this question. Are you at all impressed by the Hawks because there was a lot of talk immediately after

this that like the Hawks, well, we have to give them their due, yada, yada. This very much seems like an implosion. But does this result change your opinion about the Hawks anymore? Like, do you have any more faith that they could not only get past this round, but maybe even the next? No, I don't. I mean, you know, I was somebody who was fairly bullish on them already, right? So it's not like, this game didn't like illustrate anything to me that I already

didn't feel about these guys. What I will say is obviously they're good enough that when an opportunity is presented to them, even as a young team, they get, they get busy. But I think the first half was sort of illustrative of what kind of series this should have been if the Sixers had the sort of mental makeup to make it so, right? Things got a little bit tight. And they just completely fell apart in the first half they were playing loose they were excellent like you guys mentioned what between Simmons and Tybal and joel the three of them what they were able to do to that tray young pick and roll was legitimately impressive and you know they're there they were hunting tray young on the defensive end like even going so far as to make sure the guy that could send

the strong side help or double was always going to be trey young's guy on joel and beat so that it's like, all right, just a little freaking fly, then I'll just flick off of me. Like, they, they executed. They got it done, right? They showed themselves to be a superior team to this squad in a pivotal game, right? Like, basically a series freaking deciding game. And then in the second half, they took their foot off the gas and it's just mental midgets, man. I'm sorry.

This was weak mentally what they did tonight. Yeah, what would have happened in this game if Seth Curry didn't have a huge second half? I mean, the Sixers could have lost by 20. what if Steph Curry was there though I think there's some rules against that one I think yeah to waste a Seth Curry game like this it feels pretty damning right now

and so I have to wonder like who is the favorite in this series sharks do you think like the Sixers can still come back and win this or are they down so much at this point it's gonna be tough to come back they could definitely come back and win it I mean I feel like this was more about them

losing the game kind of like what Waz was saying like neither team has been like crazy impressive. I wouldn't be stunned either way. All right. Let's turn the page here now and talk about a team that is bulletproof and never folds under pressure. That is the Los Angeles Clippers, who are now up 3-2 over the Utah Jazz 119, 111. They played this one without Kauai Leonard, who I guess we don't really know how long he's going to be out here, but he has a knee injury. Some people are calling it an ACL injury. We could talk about like injuries and the ripple effects of all that stuff later on here.

but I do want to talk about Paul George because, good God, I did not expect him to have a game like this. This was, Rob, do you think this is one of the best games Paul George has ever played? Or maybe like one of the most meaningful he's ever had in his career? Definitely the most meaningful. I mean, just with the stakes of this particular game and the position he's put himself in, you know, he's a player who wants to be considered of the superstar class. He will remind you of his quote unquote MVP season.

You know, like that is important to him that he's considered among those players. And if you're going to be in that class, if you want to be in that category, these are your moments. Your teammate goes out, you have to deliver in a huge way or else your team is going to lose. And man, did Paul George deliver? And I think what was most impressive about this game from him and the Clippers is that their offense was Paul George driven, but it wasn't necessarily Paul George centric all the time. Like, he wasn't low rent James Hardin in this game. He got to work off the ball. And, God, they really needed Reggie Jackson.

They really needed an extra set of hands in this game just to handle and do some stuff. but they got there in the end. And Paul George, you know, again, just a tremendous performance from him offensively. When I think a lot of us could have seen the clippers easily folding in this position. I'm always more mystified when Paul George lays a complete egg and turns into a pumpkin. I just use two metaphors right there. Both pretty terrible. You know, I'm always, but seriously, though, I'm always more surprised by game six and

Denver than these type of performances. Because look at the guy. He's freaking, he's physically gifted. He's very skilled. Why should he not be able to turn in these great performances on a more consistent basis? I'm honestly, like, when I see him do craziness, I'm like, what is up with this dude? When I see him come out tonight and have this type of game, it's like, yo, I've seen

this guy go toe to toe with LeBron James before, right? Where you come out of a freaking game, you're like, wow, this guy freaking match LeBron in a big moment. Like, I've watched him do that throughout his career, have those type of games. So, yeah, I'm always going to be more surprised when he plays like, you know, J.R. Swish. It's true.

His shot, I got to say, has to be one of the most pure that the NBA has right now. And I don't really know what that means, but I want to say that it's so wet, but like I know that I'm way too white. Just to say, hey, no way. Listen, I noticed it's the late-night version.

the green room. But very, please, relax yourself. The shot is wet. There's your breakout right there. There you go, video breakout right there. But when he's odd, man, it just, I don't, I'm surprised when he misses. But I have to say when it was nutshed time, as Woz likes to say or something like that, you did start to see other guys step up around him.

Reggie Jackson just from the grave, man, has completely revitalized. his career. I was saying before we logged on to this chat here that I was telling one of our mutual friends who is a Clippers diehard, I guess we'll call him. And I said right before they played that first game in

Dallas that as soon as they put Reggie Jackson the starting lineup, this was over. Because I had no faith that he could play defense whatsoever. And here he is calling for the ball in crunch time, calling for a screen. And he wasn't that bad. He really kind of saved him there. Charis, what do you think about

Reggie in this one. I mean, he cooked three-time defensive player of the year. Rudy Gobert off to dribble. I mean, give the man his flowers. That was amazing. I would say all two with the clippers, this game. Yeah, I mean, for Paul George, it really helps. I'm looking at Royce O'Neill.

He's 6'4, 225. That's your defensive stopper on the wing. And I would say Royce is probably like a decent athlete, not even a plus athlete. Like, that's how bad Utah's perimeter defense is. Like, Basically, Royce O'Neill is the only guy who can guard them the primer in this team.

They cannot guard anybody. So it's just a matter of you're going to get to your shots. If you make your shots, you're going to beat them. They've got to win shootouts. They just can't guard. Yeah, and specifically a matchup like the Clippers, I thought they were very pointed in their attacks of Rudy. Right. They were like, all right, Rudy, you want to sit back and you want to play the paint.

We don't got anybody that could take it to you anyway, for real. So we're going bombs away. And, you know, those last possessions where Jarks is right, Reggie Jackson is literally, but he's finding Rudy's guy and he said, come set a screen right now. So I can take a wide open jump shot. Like, they were looking for Rudy. And then on Switch's guys were feeling very comfortable,

getting to their spots and finding their shots as well. You know, and but, you know, honestly, and I hate to sound so redundant and, you know, beat the horse with the dead leg again is, is that Donovan Mitchell was clearly hobbled tonight and you have no Mike Conley and, you know,

it's cute when Jordan Clarkson gets to rev it up with the bench units and soak up and hog up way too many freaking possessions. And it's nice that you have Joe Ingalls as a secondary, you know, third best ball handler, perimeter creator, et cetera, et cetera.

But that don't get, it done in these types of games, right? Like, if your guy who's an elite at it is hobbled and so therefore can't even be good, essentially, and Mike Conley is out, you see what can happen to these teams. Look, not every team can have a Reggie Jackson, though, you know? That's true. I will say, this is, you know, this is a teaching moment for all of us because if we can flash back in time to last season when the Clippers picked up Reggie Jackson, I think he

got waved by the pistons outright. I would never have imagined he would be this important in multiple playoff series. And yet here we are. The right player, the right time, a guy who a bunch of teams had cast off and given up on, I mean, he's delivering in ways that certainly

we did not anticipate. Are we saying that Paul George is a better recruiter than Kauai Leonard? Because I believe it was Paul George who lured him down to L.A., probably one of his few fishing buddies, because apparently that's the hobby that Paul George has, the only one that we hear about. But I have to say here, so Marcus

Morris also played big here. Terrence Mann with the dunk of the century, which was like half of a dunk. Can we talk about Terrence Mann real quick, considering that like we wanted to start the podcast with him the other day? Yeah, how did we get this far and you're just now mentioning the dunk? I mean, what, what chutzpah from our guy with one R and an A in his name? You know, when he drove on Rudy, I was getting a little worried, I have to say. And then when he tried to dunk it on him, it barely got over. But that kind of swung the game at the end of year. It was an add one too for his trouble to get dunked on.

Speaking of Hutzpah, you know who he's kind of starting to remind me of, not in terms of game, but in terms of impact, is rookie Wesley Matthews, who went to the playoffs for the jazz against the Kobe and Powell Lakers and was just like a huge energy presence when that. team really needed it. And to me, Terrence Mann is that guy for the Clippers, like a little bit of a sign of life. He's going to feel, he's going to have the deer, you know, deer in the headlights look a little bit, especially on some of those threes. But he's going to make big plays. He's going to keep working on defense. He's going to come up with one or two like offensive rebounds or

rebounds out of a scrum that are important to your team. You need guys like that. I mean, you need guys like Reggie Jackson who don't know that it's not their time to shoot. You need guys like Marcus Morris who are going to bully whatever mismatch they can get. There's an interesting kind of ecosystem developing here of role players for the clippers who you know again without kauai that changes their whole trajectory but when you lose a star like that sometimes role players just vanish they lose they they get all their open shots cut off or they lose the guy who's covering for them defensively it certainly doesn't look that way right now where so many different guys stepped up for the clippers in so many little ways i mean it was very symbolic right the clippers wanted to go

small we're playing a seven foot three giant three 10 defensive player the year we're going to play or six, four, six, five, six guys, and we're just going to dunk on him, whatever. Yeah. It is interesting to see Tyloo play Terrence Mann almost in the Bruce Brown role, where he's effectively like the center. But, you know, he made one of five threes, but that one three was a pretty big advantage there.

And I do think it was interesting to see that kind of matchup with the jazz thing big. And Lou going the complete opposite direction with Kauai out. He played Zubach eight minutes, but that's the only center that in Air, quotes that you can really say touch the floor here. I thought that was a really ballsy move to just completely go small, force them

to match up to then, and it worked out here. I mean, why, you've talked a lot about this, just lose willingness to try things. I think that was a pretty big edge here in this game. Yeah, and as always, when Tylo's back is against the wall, he's like, I'm putting my best offensive players out there.

Y'all can have fun with defensive stops and all that other stuff. I'm getting buckets. And that's what he did tonight he he i think very smartly understood that we're not going to beat the jazz conventionally right now we're at a talent disadvantage and so we have to throw out something at least kind of gimmicky to throw them off balance and that's what they did is like you know what rudy you're playing perimeter defense all night long we're not going to let you play in the paint we're not going to give you a zoob when hell you can try to hide on a terence man but this guy very active as very you just said

and it's not going to be some easy little job for you. So, of course, kudos to Tai Lu, man. This guy, I just love his willingness to just be like, yo, man, that wasn't working out. I'm trying this next thing. And his willingness, too, after they took that barrage of threes in the first half to still trust his gut, to still say, I know this can work if we circle back to it. If we go into this position, if we put these guys in, you know, you can even see late in the game, there were so many possessions they were ending up with Terrence Mann in the corner

and he would have to make a tough call against Rudy Gobert. And so they shuffled him out. And they put Nick Batum in that spot. And they got, well, unfortunately, an open look that Batum airballed. But the process there is good in terms of what Lou is able to put the team in position to do. I mean, this is why you fired Doc Rivers last year. Like, you see the payoff right now. This is like 100%.

You got Ty Lou in there. I think Tylo, give them in all the props in the world, sometimes I'll think I'll watch the bucks. I'm like, if Tylo was their coach, this would be a very, very, very different team. I mean, Mike. The man, he knows what he's doing. Yeah. I mean, the Jazz almost forced his hand, too, because they made, what, 10 threes, I think it was. In that first quarter, they had shot 30 by the half.

I mean, they took 54 in this game. And so you had to kind of fight fire with fire. I think that is one thing I'm worried about if on the Clippers, though, that the Jazz are going to keep barraging and shooting away that I wonder if the math ultimately flips the other way. Yeah, in the other game, the Sixers had the most threes. They made 13 threes. I think the jazz hit that mark 15 minutes into this game. Right.

Right. And so are we worried? Charks, what do you think? So no Kauai here. We don't know when he's going to come back here. Are you worried that some of these threes fall, the game ends up a different story? I don't know. I think if you're the clippers, you're thinking this.

We know that they cannot guard us. We can get our open shots. We just got to make them. But, you know, it is a make or miss league, right? You can miss your shots for two games. and Utah could win. But I think if you're the Clippers and your back of your mind,

you know, we could always get open looks with our lineups. And that gives you a pretty good edge in a series like this. All right. Heineken believes you could twist any situation into something positive. You just need a fresh take.

So here's some fresh takes on the NBA playoffs. Charks, what is your fresh take? I think the Suns still have a chance, even if Chris Paul is out for a few games in the conference finals. I think they've been a great team all season. They still have Devin Booker

who's become an elite player in these playoffs. We already know that already, I guess. They've got a lot of good young players around him. They've got a good head coach. I think this is a team, especially if you're going to play the Clippers next round, the Kwai Leonard, the Jazz. Mike Conley, like, there are no unbeatable teams for the sons to have to worry about.

So they should still be able to give that a good series, even if Chris Paul misses most of it. Was, do you believe in DeAndre Aiton, now? Yeah, I've had to eat my words. I was somebody who thought he would come into his first post-season and get completely obliterated by the sophistication and the skill level of most postseason offenses. And he's done the opposite. He just acquitted himself quite well.

Still wasn't quite worth passing up on Luca, but he's doing his thing. Right. Those takes, those were so fresh. But you can get out there and find your own fresh takes. Grab a pack of Heineken from your local retailer or have one delivered right to your door. Must be 21 years of age to purchase. I was already open. Cheers, y'all.

Cheers. I do want to talk about Kauai here because this was the biggest news of the day for all of five minutes before we moved on to something else. So it is possible that he's out for the remainder of the series. We don't really know it's pretty hazy.

But he was one of many players that are out now. We referenced Chris Paul being out with COVID. It's a different situation. But there are a lot of players now playing through injury. Embed was one of them. Danny Green was another.

one hardens and are seeing an injury. Kyrie is out. Man, Conley, it goes on and on and on. I don't want to turn this into a discussion of just turn injuries off because I think they could fall into that category pretty quickly. But Rob, I think we're starting to see clear signs of the rush season, starting to mar the postseason. I think I personally was on the fence for a while and saying, like, let's wait for the data.

I know a lot of guys are complaining about it, but I want to see actual facts to back it up. now we have the facts and now we have just an absurd amount of stars on the men at the most important time of the year. I mean, what do you think about this? Is this like, is the NBA to blame for the situation we're in right now?

I mean, that's a pretty loaded question, especially because all these decisions, although they are NBA decisions, are joint calls between the NBA and the players association. On some level, the players have to make those calls too on how much money they're willing to give up for a shortened season. If they're willing to push it out, all those things,

they had just as much of a stake as anyone in getting this started more or less on time, or quote unquote, on time so you could get back to a normal schedule. That said, the playoffs have been just totally shaped and marred by the injury, the state of all these injuries. And it's not just the guys who are out. It's, you know, like Donovan Mitchell in this game, who, even though he's still very good, doesn't have it all the time. You know, he just can't get to that gear that he needs to to be a dominant presence in a game like this one that the Jazz had to win.

And that's unfortunate that we have to see that and measure that and weigh that as if it's just neutral basketball. But this is what we get every year in terms of, you know, like just injuries shaping series. It's just this here is so much more prevalent. As you're mentioning, every team that's left pretty much is dealing with this on some level. You know who's to blame Justin Verrier? Capitalism is to blame. Okay. Here we go.

These cats understood the math question. either lose a crap ton of money. And not only do you lose the money by not fulfilling your obligations, you also are pissing off your TV partners. And I know people are going to be like, yo, you know, these guys make millions of dollars. They couldn't sacrifice, blah, blah, blah. Hello, this is the only chance they get to make the money that's going to set up their

families for generations. That's what they're playing for. That's what's at stake here for these guys. And then conversely, the billionaire owners who are infinitely more wealthy and powerful than the players are individually and collectively, let's be real, they themselves were super thirsty to come back. So were those billion dollar corporations and the TV partners were thirsty to come back, right? Like we always hear, we always hear this like, yo, the players. they spending money so frivolously. That's why they get killed in collective bargaining.

Well, guess what? Your freaking owners are the same, too. Dude's taking out $300 million loans at 20% interest, Tillman for time. Because you can't afford to not play games because you broke, bro. Is it becoming an episode of the Daily really quickly? I'm sorry. You know what I'm saying?

This is just the reality of it. Like, everybody went back to work. Everybody had to freaking get their asses back on the horse to chase some damn paper. NBA players are no different. This idea that people don't understand the concept of money and capitalism of like, I need to make money because rent's due on the first, fam. Sorry. You know, like that's just what it is.

The product is suffering because of it. But this is the life we chose, guys. Yeah. One thing I will say that's different about this postseason than I think about some in the past and even most recent history. is that I do think so many teams going all in and banking on this season or the next season or the season before this as their window that these super teams are forming and there really isn't much in the future. It's about the now. It is leading to, I think, a bit more pressure on guys

to play through things. And you're starting to see things like James Hardin basically being out there as a decoy. Like, I can't remember that happening like that AD, another example of this where he goes out there clearly isn't right. But he's trying to play through something, it is getting worse in certain ways. And I don't know if that's just because these guys see this opportunity as like their time to really win the title, to like build their legacy for Hardin specifically to kind of get rid of his, his reputation as being this guy who can't like win in the playoffs, et cetera. I do think something different is happening. It's almost like the time crunch is happening, but there's also a recklessness that's meeting it head on. I think

it's putting us in the position where we are today. What do you think the source of that recklessness is. Like, I'm not quite understanding you. Well, I do think it's guys trying to take advantage of their window. I mean, if you're, let's say the Lakers, for instance, like, how many more prime years of LeBron are you going to have? And so this team is built to win now. You trade all these draft picks. There really isn't much to look forward to in the future. You are trying to take advantage of the window. That would be the case. And it does seem like these things are happening here. I mean, I guess I don't see that as reckless to like what was saying, you know,

you really only have so long to make money. You really only have so long to try to win championships. And if you're James Hardin, this is a great shot that you have right here. I can totally understand why he would want to be on the floor. That said, I'm still shocked that he can play 46 minutes on a bum handstring. That's crazy.

But I totally get why he would want to be out there. Right. Charks, do you have any thoughts on this? I mean, kind of like what Rob was saying, tomorrow is never promised for anyone, right? and then you look back at a guy's career you look at how many times Kawhi got knocked out of the playoffs, how many times Katie

got knocked out of the playoffs, when you have a chance you just got to go for it because you never know. And that's just how it is. All right, let's turn to some more news in the day, some coaching fires, or as some of our newsbreakers were showing us, no one gets fired anymore.

They are only out. They usually parted ways. Mutually parting ways was good. They failed to come to agreement. Literally no one was fired today, actually. Actually, it was just all of these different things. All right, but I do want to start. Let's start in New Orleans here because I've been kind of talking to some people around this situation.

Stan Van Gundy is out, their quotes, as Pelicans coach. I don't think this is much of a surprise here. They went 31 and 41, didn't make the playoffs. The Pelicans have made a big to do about still being competitive, even though Zion and some of the young guys really haven't come to form yet. Let me ask this first, though, Charks. what do you think is like what was the worst thing about

Stan Van Gundy? Like what was the most glaring flaw in his coaching job this season? Well, I mean, the players didn't like him, right? Like, that's why he got fired. That's what shot to me was him and Nate Bjorkren. One year came in and they just didn't relate to the players

at all. They're gone now. I mean, you gotta be able to build waste chips with your players. If you don't do that, what are you even doing? Well, and especially with Stan, it's not just relating and, you know, sitting down and having a heart to heart, he came in and he coached like it was 2010 in the sense that he came in with a really complex defense. He wanted his players to run. They barely had any training camp to install it. And so then they couldn't run it effectively

and he would rip them in the media. I mean, if I was a player, I would be really frustrated with that. I would think that's a, you know, a pretty bum rap that I've been given in that situation. And that's kind of the danger of hiring a coach who's been out of the game that long, who's used to not only players with a different approach to the game or the changing strategy of the league, it's about like how much practice time are you going to get? What are the conditions on the ground of coaching if you haven't been doing it for a while? I mean, it's evolving pretty quickly. And to me, Stan Van Gundy looked like he was out of his depth in terms of getting guys to run a coherent system on the fly in a pandemic season.

He didn't live up to that. Yeah, I have no problem with letting Stan go. I think ultimately is probably going to be headed into that direction. I think the thing that surprised me the most is that when you talk to people down there, you read some things from the local beat riders and whatnot, you'll see that there's a sense of urgency that the pelicans are acting with right now, which is pretty surprising considering we just came off of year two of Zion Williamson. And he really has only played about 85 games, I think it is, total between the two seasons.

And all of a sudden, they're already on the clock. quotes. And I think from David Griffin's perspective, certainly, like he's made some flaws there. We can get into that later. But I do think there's this sense that they feel like they need to sell to Zion this organization because Zion is coming up on an extension here pretty quickly. And while nobody has really ever not signed a max extension or to stay on their second contract, I do think that there's a worry that Zion has enough money from sponsorships already. And like that there are people around him perhaps who might push him into that direction. And so, was, I guess my question here is like, do you think there's any realistic possibility when it comes down to it that Zion considering his injury history, considering like just who he is as a player, wouldn't sign that to get out of the situation?

That's actually a better question. If you were Zion, would you want to get out of this situation as soon as possible? Of course. Of course I'd want to get the hell out of New Orleans. as soon as I possibly can. Like, it's an NBA backwater. That's just the fact. Like, if you, if you, just look around the freaking league.

This guy has eyes. He can see. Just look around the place. There are a plethora of more desirable options when it comes to organizationally where you're not playing for a freaking football owner, right? And who treats your team like the other thing that they do and not the main thing. And, you know, your second, third, fifth fiddle. to a bunch of other sports in New Orleans.

You know high school football is damn bigger than you. LSU is damn bigger than you. And that's before we get to even the freaking saints, right? LSU gymnastics, yeah. Oh, there you go. I'm not kidding. There was a big Balkans game and there was LSU gymnastics on the cover. Continue.

Of a local newspaper. So there you go, right? So, of course I'd want to get out there. And I do want to talk about Griff for a second because, you know, I came on the group chat a few weeks ago, and I ripped the Celtics brass for constantly, for constantly peddling this assets future play, which doubles as great job security. Everything's going to be great in the future. Everything's going to be great in the future.

What Griff is doing is the opposite of that. And it seems to be, and some could say it could be bordering on a bit, Because guess what? You already fired a freaking coach last year. You're firing another one again. And it gets to the point where it's like, okay, do you know what you're doing? Because you just basically flushed $20 million down the toilet of the Benson family's money. And again, Paul Allen, they are not.

They are not as rich as Steve Ballmer. So the idea that Griff is doing this is obvious. There's no other explanation than they feel some type of insecurity and sense of urgency because none of this stuff makes sense otherwise. Yeah, I mean, the thing you heard last year when Alvin Gentry got let go is that wasn't really Griff's guy that like he kind of inherited him. He didn't want to rock the bow after that turbulent situation. And so he kind of played it out, waited to see what happens, but then he let him go.

But this is a pretty big indictment because this is one of the bigger decisions that he's going to make in his entire tenure. And the other big decision that he made, which is also not looking very good, is the trade for Drew Holiday, where on one hand, you're stacking assets, you're buying yourself some runway, some leeway. But on the other hand, you brought back Stephen Adams, Eric Bledsoe, and that was probably one of their biggest problems. Like, both of those guys, Adams in particular. I know. The extension for Stephen Adams after trading for him didn't make any sense when it happened because this guy has just been going through like injuries left and right in his career and he did

again. And just like they couldn't shoot. Like we all know how. every team needs shooting. Like they stack up and shooting in certain ways. They get JJ Redick to come down there and foster the young guys. And then you just like double down on Eric Bledsoe and Stephen Adams. That one didn't make sense here.

So I'm just confused that where they are right now. Yeah, today was like a greatest hits of all the things that went wrong with the Pelicans. You know, because Stan Van Gundy gets fired in the reporting, it's all the things that went wrong, including one I had forgotten, which was Eric Bloodsoe saying that in a game in which they were supposed to double team, I can't remember who they're, you know,

it was against the Knicks. who's who is shooting the ball in a crunch time situation. They were supposed to double team and he didn't. And he admitted after the game, oh, I just wasn't paying attention to what Stan Van Gundy was saying. So that's kind of what the state of the things were on the ground. So I want to bring up this, Nikiel Alexander Walker,

but a little flourish out of Alexander. Nikiel Alexander Walker's Instagram post, which is like him with Sam Van Gutty's arm around him, the quote read underneath it. It was a roller coaster ride to say the least, but nevertheless, I appreciate you. Dot, dot, dot. That's what everyone's going to say

in this green room chat after this episode stuff. It's true. Yeah. All right. And in other news here, Donnie Nelson, in the saga of the Mavs

that keeps going and going and going and hasn't stopped yet, sharks, I feel like you've already been on five different podcasts in Green Room just to talk about this. Nelson is now out after 24 years with the Mavericks

after that kind of explosive athletic piece. Are you surprised? Let's start here that we ended up with Nelson getting fired. A little bit because anyone who lasts 24 years, you can't be going to last forever at that point. I mean, it basically is forever an NBA time. But I mean, I think for the Mavs, like, it's time for a fresh start. This thing clearly wasn't working.

They need a new voice in the front office. They hired a GM search from already. I would just love to see like a promising exec come here, build out a new front office. You got Luca. Start over, man. It's about time. Yeah, the Walsh thing, and you know, we can take our listeners behind the curtain a bit here, right, and explain to them some inside baseball stuff.

When you read, and Cato and Amico, those are my homies, when you read the article and you see who's getting slammed and who's not, it becomes fairly obvious who the sourcing is coming from. And then today The dude who it comes from Got fired That's what happened Okay Is this another was bomb? This ain't a was bomb

It's just y'all know I think a lot of times readers and listeners don't understand How these stories sort of come about Like somebody has an axe to grind And they find the first reporter To get their agenda across And it's not like he's telling lies

Maybe what he's saying about Haralabob's role over there is a bit skewed by, from his own perception as a dude who's been there for 24 years and can't understand why somebody might have Mark Cuban's ear. But once you read the story, it became clear who it was from. And then, you know, a day later, it's like, bro, you out here snitching, you're putting our business on the streets, pack your shit and go. Goodbye, Donnie.

I think it's better, you know, when we're thinking about the NBA lands. and this kind of front office palace intrigue stuff, it's probably better if you look at every NBA front office as a power struggle. And then you work backwards and find the ones that are actually genuine collaborations. Because like Waz was saying, anytime there's any kind of reporting, it's all pointing to somewhere. It's pointing to somebody who's miffed because someone did listen to their draft advice or their trade advice or who they thought was good or who they thought wasn't or who they

wanted hired as a coach. that stuff just stacks up in every organization. And so for this to happen with the Mavs, it's not surprising at all. It's happening pretty much everywhere. Right. It happens in most businesses. Like, most offices are a political power struggle. This one for sure.

I know. You wouldn't believe what Chark says about you behind your back, Justin. I don't believe it. I'll say it to his face. I don't mind. Unfortunately, I have the clout here. I am the luca of this situation. Oh, wow.

Speaking of which, Luca reportedly upset about the firing. think that is where I'm a little concerned here is like what is the next direction for this franchise and like is Luca going to be okay with it? Like we're at the point now where every decision and every team needs to go through their star player. And I'm curious like what he's doing, sitting back waiting for this extension, um, potentially to sign this office and what he's thinking about team. Like I guess this goes back to the Zion discussion we were just having. Do you think like he might pull that off the table and try to play through it. I mean, you know what Lucas thinking about Justin? 40 million dollars a year. That's what he's thinking about right now for

five years. I mean, he's thinking to himself, they pay Ben Simmons to do what? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I need that break. This is the, this is the thing that like, who was the last superstar who got so upset because an executive was fired that they did something about it? Like, I think he and Nelson have a, they obviously have a relationship. I'm sure they have a very nice personal relationship. Is it going to change Luca's life that Donnie Nelson is not there anymore to the point where he's turning down $200 million? I mean, I don't love any of you guys that much, I got to say.

Listen, maybe Luca keeps tigers in his apartment and like Donnie Nelson just has like good tips on that. I don't know, he seems like the type of guy who might do that. No, I think that the case for that would be one, there's enough in endorsement money that Luca would be set and he would be able to gamble and be able to pick his team after the season, after the extension goes away. The other case for it would be is that KD just provided precedent that a player good enough, even if you do get injured significantly, even if you have the most significant injury in basketball, you could still get a max

contract from that. I think Luca considering his age, considering where he is in his career. I think he's proven that like he probably would get that regardless now. I don't know, man. I think there's a reason why nobody's ever turned down a maximum extension off of a rookie deal. People have done qualifying offers and been like, all right, I'm going to bet on myself and test myself in free agency next year.

But they were not offered the max. Nobody's ever said, because you got to figure, people got to understand what it means, right? It's like somebody brings a piece of paper to you and says, all you do is write your name on this and you'll be $250 million richer.

That's tough. That's tough to pass up. You just, with the wave of a pen, 250 mil, or whatever Luca's extension will be. Come on, man. It's just one of those things, apparently in Dallas now, whenever something goes wrong,

he's saying Luke will be mad about it. Like, oh, I got fired. Luke is mad about this, man. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Because the hot name now is Michael Finley, I guess, who's already in the front office, I guess, and so he might rise to a more prominent role. As two longtime Dallas residents, Rob, would you be excited with Michael Finley as the leader of the Dallas Mavericks?

Why not? Give him a shot. Yeah. I have no problem with that. Charks, do you have any sense of Michael Finley as an executive? Not really. He's kind of been kind of behind the scenes a bit, but he's really ascended in last few years. But we'll see what he would do is in the main job, though. Yeah, I mean, it's always tough to extricate from a front office, like, what people's roles are and what decisions they had a hand in, how they felt about certain issues. When you're talking about somebody like Donnie Nelson who's been in that job for over two decades, that's it's tough to pinpoint exactly what Finley's hands have been on. But I think overall, the thing with the Mavs is they've gotten some of the big things extremely right, Luca, for example. And they've also messed up quite a lot.

So, you know, if you wanted to just wash your hands clean and say, we want to start fresh with a totally new voice, a totally new, you know, person running this front office, I would understand that. But I don't know. They've done some good work too. And certainly has been a front office. It's been very successful, you know, working the bargains, trimming around the edges. They're good at that stuff. They're just apparently not good at trading for Chris Taps for Zingis or, you know, that kind of thing. And why the only one who doesn't see the MAP situation is dire?

I don't understand this. No, I'm with you. They took the, they took a clip. They took a Clippers team to seven games who was way better than them. They had no business being in that series when you consider the talent disparity. They have Luca. He's going to sign a rookie extension, which means he's going into his fourth year, and there's five years after that that they'll have them for.

What are we complaining about? Yes, KP, could you please freaking lift the weight or drinking and sure every now and again? Yes. Like, KP not being, you know, a legitimate number two, obviously in the playoffs. It's like, bro, we can't count on you for damn near anything at this point. And yes, guys coming off of a major injury. And we got to give him that leeway. And perhaps next year after, you know, more training and, you know, a year removed.

I mean, another year removed from the injury, perhaps he'll be better. And I would expect that he is. But, like, yeah, KP is not great. He's not, definitely doesn't pencil them in to second round playoff bids the way, you know, Stockton and Malone did in their prime, which is what people were telling me when the Knicks traded this dude away, that basically the freaking Mavs were going to walk to 55 wins every single year because of it. That's proven to not be the case, right? And so, yeah, the KP thing isn't great, but everything else is pretty damn good, if you ask me. Yeah, there is no dire when you have Luca Donchich. Full stop, that's it.

Well, I will say this. I used to be of the mind that if you have the generational superstar, like if you screw up anything around that, that's your mistake, right? But I have, I mean, as we keep seeing, it is more difficult than we kind of lay it out to be. We're seeing the Pelicans. They screwed up with Anthony Davis. Luca Donchish is another one because these players are being,

are so good so quickly now that it makes it tough to build through the draft. And then you really need to take one big, swing in order to pair them with at least one other guy. Drew Holiday was the one with Anthony Davis. Christophezegis was the guy with Luca. And like, you're probably not picking from the pick of the letter there. You're probably picking for someone who maybe is diminished in some certain way. For instance, Drew and KB were both diminished by injuries. You're not getting like your friend to come play with you because you're not going to have free agents that are of the same age. And so it's a lot more difficult than we're giving it credit. You know what we're not giving it credit to,

by the way, the players are smarter GMs. Look at the Nets and what they put together. If Luca would have, excuse me, if Janice would have just been smart enough to realize he ain't no damn perimeter player and said, why don't I take my ass to Dallas with a guy that would solve literally every single problem I've ever had on a basketball court?

We'd be talking about championships in Dallas now, but instead he, you know, he did the sentimental sapy, I'm going to do it where I started nonsense. and look at that damn team. Don't make us sad, wise. Let's not bring up Janus and Luca together. It's late in night.

I've had a long year. Come on. But there's a guy who trusted his organization, though. Right? Like, he put his faith in the GMs to do what they're supposed to do.

And, you know, we lament what KD and them and LeBron and other people have done in the past. But like, look at, is Janus being rewarded for this? Will he ever be rewarded for it? Only time we'll take. sell. Yeah.

Instead, he has Drew Holiday by his side just a couple of years later. All right. Let's flip quickly to the Washington Wizards here who failed to come to an agreement with Scott Brooks, their coach of five seasons. Are we really doing this? Are we doing this? Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we hear? No, no, no, no, not even the topic, but we're actually given this credibility,

this failed to come to an agreement. He got fired, y'all. He did get fired. And this is the thing. And it goes back to what I was talking about with Donnie Walsh. It's framed like that by the newsbreakers of our industry. Because guess what? They're probably friends with Scotty Brooks's agent or Scottie Brooks himself.

And it looks nasty to be like, they cut him loose. He wasn't getting it done. Goodbye, Scott Brooks. That's a bad look. When you come out and say, yo, you know, they couldn't come to an agreement on a contract. it looks better for Scottie Brooks. So just always remember the framing when you guys are reading this stuff, guys. Justin, to go back to your question earlier,

I think this will be Scott Brooks's last job in the NBA. I would be surprised if he was a head coach again. I shouldn't be laughing at that, but yeah. Seventh-longest tenured head coach in the NBA. That's insane. Yeah, I think this one isn't much of a surprise here. Rob, if you're looking at the Wizards next coach, you have Russell Westbrook probably.

You have Bradley Beal probably. You have these young guys you're hoping to get something out of. Is there some quality or is there some coach specifically that you're looking at in order to fill the void there? I mean, I am facing reality and fast forwarding and going purely development. I know all due respect to Brad Beal and, you know, I'm sure he wants to be there in some part of, you know, in the depths of his soul, wants to make the Wizards a winning organization again. I just am not building my franchise around that. So anyone who can get Rui Hachamura to the next level who can get Denny Obdia to be a good NBA player,

that's kind of where I'm thinking more so than however long we have Russell Westbrook and Brad Biel on the team, to be honest with you. I like how that serious point was immediately met with laughs. Rui Hachamara to the next level. Welcome to my life. Yeah. I was just, I really want some miracle worker. I love it.

Rui Hachamura is good. Not a miracle worker. I'm into it. All right. So the current openings we have now here, Boston, Indiana, New Orleans, Orlando, Portland, and Washington was what is the best job available right now? Milwaukee. We're just firing people left and right. Listen, the best job available right now, the best job available right now has to be, to me,

the New Orleans job, as much as I was like, if I'm Zion, I wouldn't want to be there. But again, I, like, I defy somebody. Like, these guys have to show me they're not going to sign that rookie extension. I got to see it before I believe that that's ever going to actually happen. So that being the case, if I get Zion for another six years, give me that, bro. This guy's freaking incredible. I really thought you were going to say Boston for a second. I thought we had boxed you in with a multiple choice question where you have.

have to pick Boston. It just didn't happen. Can I say that for real, though? I think it's Boston. Really? That's not a terrible. It's a good job for sure. It's a good job.

I'm with Wazz. I just think like if you have generational talent like Zion, I mean, and Tatum is kind of that class too. It just depends on how highly you think of him. I think of Zion is a different level of prospect than Tatum personally.

But I wouldn't blame you for one in the Boston job. Do you want to be subordinate to boy wonder? The president? You want to be supporting to a guy who had a crap season and then got promoted by the owners who's basically untouchable and you can't talk to him

in that organization damn there? I serve at the pleasure of the president. I'm going on you. I mean, the case for Boston is, yeah, like Tatum isn't Zion. Maybe he doesn't have that ceiling, although, I mean, his ceiling is pretty freaking high.

It's pretty close to top 10 player if it isn't already there. Just injury risk. You know, Zion, you're always worried that his legs will get him out from under him. I mean, I can't get the picture of him out of my mind of, like, walking like a penguin. And it's just going to stay there no matter how good he is, no matter like if he shoots 60% from the floor, every freaking game like he has been. I'm just a little more worried about the Zion situation. That's all.

I mean, they're both great jobs. New Orleans and Boston. Like, those are jobs as a coach. You just, that's the job you want, right? That's a job that you get. You actually have talent. you have multiple really good young players. You have Tatum and Brown in Boston,

Zion and Ingram and New Orleans. There's a lot to work with. The dropout for those two jobs is a chasm. Those two jobs are just great jobs. And look at what getting in early on some young talent did for Scott Brooks's career. I mean, my God. Jesus. Christ.

Well, I was going to say this might be the reason, too, why if you're Washington, you're looking at maybe a younger development-oriented coach is you're pretty low on the totem pole for a free. agent coaches who are going to be looking at spots. I don't think there's going to be a rush of coaches looking to go to D.C. When you could coach Zion, you could coach Jason Tatum. Those are pretty attractive options.

Yeah, they'll be lucky to get guys from the Patriot League to come coach in D.C. next season, man. It's going to be tough for them to fill that position. All right. But on that note, we're going to close the podcast here. Thank you to our producer, Sasha Ashall. Thank you to Pat Mal Downey for shepherding us through this whole process. Thank you for you, the listeners.

We'll be back same time, same place, I guess on Green Room 2 and maybe other platforms. We'll see you.