The Ringer NBA Show - The Heat Run Out of Options, Plus Looking Into the Mavs' Future

Episode Date: May 26, 2022

Justin and Rob are joined by J. Kyle Mann to discuss the Boston Celtics winning Game 5 on the road and taking a 3-2 series lead over the Miami Heat. They talk about adjustments Miami can make to come back in the series, and big-picture thoughts on the Heat's roster. Then, they talk about the Mavericks keeping their season alive with a Game 4 win over the Warriors, if they can come back to win the series, and some team-building thoughts for next season (39:48). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Guest: J. Kyle Mann Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, Rob Harvilla from 60 Songs That Explain the 90s here to inform you that we are back with 30 more songs because the 90s were super long and had a ton of rad music. Please join us every Wednesday for more 60 songs that explain the 90s only on Spotify. And welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier joining me, Rob Mahoney. And special guests filling in for Big Wise, J. Kyle, man. Kyle, welcome to the debauchery. No one can really fill in for Waz. He leaves a hole that no one can really. It's just that he's a unique jigsaw piece.

So I'll try to just be a body. You know, I'll try to be a body in his presence. But I'm glad to be here. Because, you know, I like talking to you, fellas. So thanks for having me.

Oh, it's so quaint. Yeah, just to be clear, Waz was not fired. Perhaps some after last week's podcast might have thought that multiple members of this podcast would be let go for varying degrees of, for varying reasons.

But we're still going. We'll be back next week, most likely. I'm back on the juice, you know? Last week I tried to go without. What juice is that? What are we talking about here? So in order to stay up, I've been drinking Red Bull like a teenage BMXer because coffee no longer does anything for me.

So I blame my performance last week on being off the sauce. But I'm back on it now. And I think you can tell. Yeah. You know, also, man, I don't want, frankly, I just kind of don't want to hear it. You're complaining to me about being able to stay up. I mean, give me a break. Seriously.

I'm going to chug copy. Stay up. I just don't want to hear it. I'm a pre-10 guy now these days. You know, pre-10 p.m. bedtime. I can't do it. I need to do it. It's hard.

It's hard. That's a life choice I need to make that I haven't made yet. Yeah, I'm feeling like most of the players in this game. But let's pivot there because what we thought we were going to get a competitive game in the conference finals, our first. It was kind of a buyer beware, be careful what your wish for, because that competitive game was an absolute slog. It was a rock fest that most of the game, I was just thinking of creative ways to describe how awful the gameplay was for the most part. And then we ultimately did get a blowout. The Celtics broke it open, win game five, take a three, two lead going back to Boston.

Kyle, to start this one off, I mean, I guess the story of the game is that the Celtics did, just enough, which I guess is what you would have maybe assumed going into this playoff series. So is that what you saw tonight in this one? I see two teams. I saw two teams sort of circling each other with, I thought tonight specifically and in another game, Miami came in trying to set a tone of physicality because there is a talent gap between these two teams. I think, I don't feel like that's controversial. But I was telling Isaiah before we started that I kind of kind of feel like Miami's talent deficiencies really started to show. It kind of reminded me of that moment. This game to me felt like that moment in Queen's Gambit, whenever the older

guy's teaching her, Anya Taylor Joy, how to play. Have you know the scene I'm talking about? And they're in the, they're playing. And she doesn't know. Yeah, and he's like, he's like, you resign now. That kind of felt, tonight felt like a moment where Boston was like, he like grabbed her hand, you know. Yeah, it just feels like Miami is. in a position where they're lacking creators, specifically without Tyler Hero being out there. All of their typical modes of offense are running up dry. As a result, we were talking about like their cutting game has been cut.

Wow, sorry about that. Their handoff game has been, we were talking about 16 possessions where they ran handoffs, only 0.8 points per possession. I just see a Miami team that is struggling to keep the offense that they need on the floor while not getting like heavily punished. on the defense on the other side of the floor because of what Boston is able to do offensively that makes it i'm not even sure at this point tyler hero makes a profound

difference you know when you see the kind of lockdown defensive performance the celtics put on in the second half of this game especially i think there are areas where tyler hero is obviously an improvement you know gave vincent was maybe like the most important offensive player for long stretches of this game for miami there was a point in the third quarter where the heat's entire offense was Max Struce, period. That's a guy who did not hit a shot in this game for a clarification, but they just kept going to a possession after possession after possession. Because it's pretty clear at this point, Jimmy Butler is not looking to attack as often as

he was in previous series. He does not look recognizable at all from the guy who dominated the Sixers. And I think a lot of that is injury. I think some of that is circumstance. Rob Williams has had a profound effect on which heat players can attack the basket in this series and under what context. but they just don't have answers. They don't have a lot of answers

in terms of how to run offense, much less actually score on those possessions. Yeah, before we get too deep in the weeds into the synergy stats and the second spectrum stuff, I think like the top line of this is that the heat were pretty disastrous offensively. Like Butler, 13 points was an upgrade over his past two games, which were pretty horrid.

Lowry, zero points on zero for six shooting. Max Struis, who Rob just mentioned, four points on zero for nine shooting. He has not made a shot the past two games from the floor. And ESPN stats and info had this really deep cut of a stat. That's apparently the worst ofer for any starting backcourt since 1970. 71. There's been a lot of basketball played since.

This is just like, it's really getting ugly out there. And I guess it speaks to how good the heat had been defensively and how much they can muck up the game on the other end. But like, they just need something, anything, and they don't get it. And I think a good question to be asking here, Kyle, is like, bam seems like the most able-bodied player left to be able to do something. And he gave 18 and 10 tonight, decent stats, a couple blocks in there. But aside from that one huge game, he's kind of just floated into the background.

And, like, personally, I would assume this is where you would like a max player, a guy you're kind of basing your future around to step up. in these situations. Yeah, you can kind of see the difference between, you know, we were laughing at Joel and Bede's tweet after the game that they need a star. You can kind of see the difference between like a drink-stirring initiator player who can kind of get the offense moving, can force the defense to respect them with help in different ways at different levels.

You saw that that really is kind of the threshold that BAM just hasn't really crossed yet. We kind of saw that with Phoenix too where, you know, Aiden has kind of struggled to cross that bridge. Bam looks, you know, they kind of went. to him there at the end and he started to be a little bit more aggressive but throughout this game Boston has enough size I think to make him uncomfortable like Al we've always talked about as like really savvy positional defender and Rob Williams is as athletic as anybody he had a couple just crazy close out plays in this game but Bam you know took towards the end there took some shots and

Miami's offense didn't have any momentum when he was taking those shots too so that's kind of like man that's that's where we are and it's I I just think down the up and down the board, it's like, in theory, if you told me, hey, we've got Biccola Depot, we've got Kyle Lowry, we've got Tyler Hero. In theory, that's a back court that can get you by. And you lose all three of those or to just get no production from them. It just Miami's whole kind of synergy, not quoting the stats or the stat site, but the literal word there, their synergy just kind of falls apart and dries up and it makes it really, really hard to score

against a switchable team like Boston. Bam is in such a tough spot in the series in terms of being aggressive, I think just the matchup is not good for him. But then there's also that constant need for him to push and attack more than he just like is wired to do. And you could see it even in this game. Like even on the possessions he posted up,

Jimmy Butler is waving him down to the post, begging him to back down Derek White or Jalen Brown or whoever he has in a mismatchelage. There's some guys that like Justin after his bedtime, you need to put a battery in their back a little bit. You know, you need to lift him up. And I hate that Bam is that guy right now because we've seen what he can be when he's aggressive.

And I think the possessions that are most infuriating for him are in semi-transition, where the heater kind of pushing down the floor, he has the ball in his hands, and he's not even looking at the basket. And you contrast that with, in the third quarter of this game, Al Horford goes one on three in transition

and gets an and one. And those plays seem well within Bam's reach, and yet he's just not looking, not looking for them. He's not wired to look for them. He wants to facilitate in a way that I think is sometimes kind of productive to what the heat need. Yeah, you can see it like in his body language. It's really interesting to see the difference between somebody who's aggressive from the catch. He would get in these moments where he'd catch the ball and you could see it just kind of dawn on him like, oh, I need to attack. And it was like that kind of, it just wasn't in rhythm. It never really

felt right. And I think you're talking about transition. That's something that Lowry really brings for them is his he's like a really good just kind of chess player in transition a lot just another added wrinkle for them this is a chess heavy show for you kyle wow that is two chess references i don't even like chess pretty fascinating yeah you're establishing yourself as the grandmaster of this podcast i mean i'm not opposed to it i'm open to it okay um yeah the real one time it seemed like the heat had some zip to them offensively was when they went to the tuck wagon. I guess this is like tuck wagon 9.0 at this point where PJ Ducker play center. The problem was like, yeah, things were moving a little bit easier than they had been

otherwise. But then it's like you do that in large part most of the time to get more shooting on the floor. But then it's like Victor Oladipo has wide open shots and that wasn't working out. And gave Vincent provided them a little bit. But, you know, like then you would swing to Butler and then Butler start to the fourth quarter in particular missed a wide open. and three. It's just like, I don't know, man. Like, I'm obviously not a tactician, especially on this podcast, but like, uh, like, what are the answers? Like, if it isn't Bam, if Butler is hobbled, if Kyle Lowry is out there basically to dead fish and like work the angle, like an Instagram model trying to get

a foul call, like, what is there, Rob? Do you have any answers for me? Uh, there's an L in game six and you're out of here. Like, they have to, they have to find this from somewhere. And really the only answer they have is Butler has to play better. And he's hurt, and those are tough breaks. But like you're saying, when you go five out, when you go small, you're putting more shooting on the floor, as you mentioned. You're also creating driving angles. And when your best driver can't or won't drive, it's just kind of a non-starter.

And so the heater are going to have sequences and stretches where they play amazing defense, but to capitalize on any of that, you've got to have Butler scoring out of the teens. You've got to have BAM being more aggressive throughout this game on the possessions that matter, not just the ones that build when you're already on a run, but the ones that get you out of the mud. And I don't really see either of those things happening. Like this, this felt like a pretty definitive, if not end, than at least kind of bringing us to the end game of this series in this matchup. Right. And I should mention 15.6% shooting from three, which we're still digging up the stats.

Stats Blakely over here is going to maybe chime in a little. later on, but we think that's like one of the worst three point percentages, given the volume of shots 45 for a playoff offense. But we'll keep track of that. But maybe we should turn to the other side of this. I do want to put a pin in the NB discussion because we should come back to that at some point, but that feels like an entire different, entirely different segment. The Celtics seem like they just had enough early on like this was looking really bleak

because Marcus, Mark comes back. He's already holding at his shoulder in his back, like pretty soon into the game. And then almost immediately after Jimmy Butler's arm just goes dead. Or Jason Tatum's arm just goes dead. And it seemed like it was bothering him at least throughout the first half. Robert Williams, obviously, on the mend. For a while, Derek White and El Horford basically carried them, which, like, if you'd watch most of the playoffs, you're like, wow, Derek White.

That's, this is probably bottom of the barrel. But they, I guess they just had enough when it mattered, Kyle. Like, is it as simple as, like, these guys? guys are the driving forces. They're like, they are the top level talents and they just showed up when they needed them. I think Boston just kind of, it's a combination of things as it often is. I mean, I think that the fact that Miami is struggling to create offense, I think that Boston just kind of smells blood. I was going to say another thing, too, that they really hurt them with is once those creators were clearly not a part of the equation anymore, you noticed that like the guys that

that really depend on coming off of, like, pin downs or, like, the offball kind of movement. Like, Boston was doing it incredible. Well, they were just being incredibly aggressive, staying attached to, like, Duncan Robinson and to those shooters. And basically just saying, hey, hey, suboptimal creators, do create. They were just daring them. I mean, like, Horford was dropping all the way into the lane. They didn't have anybody in a hero can make that shot, but he's not there. Other than that, like, they just don't have guys that are looking to take that shot. And I think that that's really, that's really that. I think has been the checkmate

moment is like, okay, if you guys just don't have anything else, we have this defensive move that we're going to make and you're finished. I really don't know, I really don't know what the adjustment is going to be. What was the question you asked me about? I'm sorry, I think I missed the actual question. I'm going to have to do that.

Well, basically just like, do the Celtics have just enough? Like, did Tatum and Brown do starshit when they needed starshit to differentiate them from an in equally struggling heat team? Yes, I think, yes, I agree. I was trying to do like an interpretive dancer. I think it's a big deal.

I think Tatum's evolution in like reading help as it comes, it's taking him a little bit. I mean, but he's slowly kind of, his ability to like get off the ball and to continue moving has just been really impressive to me. And if he's going to see the ball early and make plays like that, he just gets infinitely harder to guard. I just don't know that Miami is going to have an answer for that, especially if Jimmy's going to be hobbled. I mean, Tatum was far and away the best passer in this game. The reeds he was making the cross court, you know, against the grain of your body, mid-air kind of contortions he was doing. That's incredibly tough to guard and to scramble against

and try to recover to those shooters when he's hitting guys on positions like that. I thought he was maybe a little bit more impressive than Brown who, Brown kind of poured it on at the end to really bury the heat, which is important. But for long stretches of this game, I thought Miami had him under wraps. He seemed really apprehensive about dribbling into crowds with the heat. They were just picking dribbles away from him. Every time, I feel like Miami has a very good beat at this point on when Jalen Brown will shoot

and when he will step back into his shot because you could see as soon as he went into his kind of gather and collect, they would run extra defenders at him knowing that he's not going to pass once he kind of commits to that route. So they're doing stuff defensively in the series Miami is that's really impressive. It's just you're getting the great possessions from Tatum. And as you mentioned, this is the game that trading for Derek White really pays off. Because Marcus Smart was out there technically, kind of a ghost. If you told me he did not actually play in this game and I imagined it, I might believe you. He just didn't really touch or impact anything at all.

And so it's huge to get these kinds of minutes from Derek White, to be able to put him on the floor in these critical situations, including to close the game. and he's not only the guy who's staying attached to Duncan Robinson, he's really aggressive attacking and looking for his own shots and driving lanes in ways that Derek White sometimes, I mean, is not, often is not. Sure. Kyle, as a Southern man, does it warm the heart to see Al Horford rise from the dead these playoffs, Florida Gator alum, Atlanta Hawk, legend.

Are you doing this on purpose? I mean, are you aware that Al Horford tore? us for years. Like it like just put us in a headlock like a school bully and gave us nuggies. Him and Joe Kim Noah. I mean, they they haunted us. As in like your family like you, your wife and your. Yes, my family. My, my, my, my rooting interest family. Yes. He would, no, I mean, Al Horford. It's, it's amazing. I mean, he had that dip for a while there where it kind of made you wonder if he was just kind of biding his time until he got back to a winning situation. Yeah, I mean, he's been unbelievable.

He's one of the smartest players in the league, I think. I think he's one of the smarter defensive players on Earth, I would wager. The fact that you would culturally try to link Florida and Kentucky, though, I think just, it displays a woeful misunderstanding of the American South. It says a lot about you, Verrier. Says a lot. Oh, yeah. My coastal elitism is pretty apparent at this point.

No, I mean, like, I think it helps to have stabilizers like those two guys in a game like this. White, the more surprising one, but Horrible. for it seems like time and time again, just gives them exactly what they need at the right time. And like the Celtics are basically a mesh unit at this point. But like they just have enough. I mean, I guess if you're looking for a silver lining for if you're the heat, like one ray of light, like really deep, dark in the tunnel that you're in. Like you're in the breaking bad basement, like just like in the meth basement, you know, it's a really bleak situation for you. But there's that little ray of sunshine peeking through.

It's just that the turnover is just keep being a constant issue for the Celtics. They did shore up the ball handling a little bit in the second half, as you guys alluded to, but going into halftime just a ton, Tatum with five, Brown with four. Somehow Brown ended up with fewer than Tatum, which is kind of remarkable considering. I guess that's something that, like, you could just keep the Celtics fumbling into their own mistakes was just happened throughout this series, but I don't know. even that seems like a stretch, no. It really does.

This is not a silver lining kind of game in many ways. I think whatever silver linings were there have been buried over this last half of basketball. Don't put that one in your silver linings playbook. I think that there's always, I think whenever Rob's logging off, Rob's logging off, hey, it's late, man. I don't have a filter, okay? I think you're always going to balance aggressiveness with turning the ball over. And I think Boston, I'm sure they're happy with how aggressive they played.

And so no, I don't know that that's necessarily, you know, there are levels of turnovers we're willing to accept, I think, if we're playing aggressive. The other thing, too, is anything you would put as a silver lining, whether it's the turnovers or not, they all have those inverses. They all have the elements that the Celtics would feel really good about. Like, yes, he also got a lot of offensive rebounds in this game.

And then in the second half, the Celtics turned it against them by attacking and transitioned in every opportunity they could. So even the great things in the heat's life right now are just like turning to ash. Yeah, so this isn't a silver linings game, but it is a, oh, they're one game away from the off season. Let's blow shit up and like really pick apart this team

and see who we could trade off of them. And luckily enough, Joelle Embed has started the fire here because in the midst of the game, tweets out Miami needs another star. Do you know any? Well, I know one who, who might be looking for work now.

Do you actually think he was talking about Bradley Beale? I don't know who he was talking about, but what a gift for Joel to just toss some red meat to us content creators out here, you know? Yeah, he also followed it up with Boston just has too many weapons, which, like, I read that as he realized quickly that everyone was going to run with what he just said.

Like, maybe he didn't think it through. And he's like, oh, no, this is just analysis of the game. I don't actually want to be in Miami. me, but now that he's introduced it, Rob, drill and B to the heat. Are you ready? How do you figure that one in the trade machine?

What's, what is this like a Dwayne, Deadman, Max, Struces and picks kind of deal? Well, they could definitely give them all of the, uh,

former G-leaguers who turn into shooters who will eventually be, who either are or will eventually be overpaid guys. They have a lot of those kicking around. Um, Gabe Vincent, sure, seems like a nice guy does,

does some stuff, not a lot of stuff, but some. I don't know how this works. But, like, I wouldn't be surprised if our friend Joelle saw what he went through during the playoffs realizes that maybe James Harden isn't much better than, like,

Kyle Lowry is a running mate. Okay. Come on. But you get the idea, and he's like, huh, maybe I could be the final piece here. I would be very surprised. I didn't interpret it as him trying to move. I just, I kind of wondered if there was, like,

some 4D chess going on here where he was like trying to maybe get them weaken themselves or maybe they'll do business with them and get them some pieces or maybe yeah, maybe move Harden. I don't know. I can't imagine Harden on it. Sure, let's see it. Why not?

At this point, I mean, considering the bodies that have been out there for them, I guess it's not that wild of an idea, honestly. It would be kind of funny if this was him stoking the James Harden trade market. That would be an incredible outcome to all this. I mean, I don't blame him for wanting to get down there. Like, it is a little bit of a weird timing because, like, I don't know if I'm really

signing up to play alongside Jimmy Butler, who seems to get hurt pretty frequently. Because this isn't just like a playoff thing. This is also a regular season thing now. And also, like, who else are you playing with? Sure that he have a pretty extensive history at this point of finding hidden gems and, like, turning guys into shooters, like I mentioned, and giving guys abs who you wouldn't previously have thought would want to work out. But like, Kyle Lowry is signed for a very long time at a very high price point. I don't think you're going to be able to trade that contract.

And like, Bam and Jowell, I don't know if that's like a clean fit per se. Well, that's why he's not actually pitching himself to the heat. He's just making a comment about the heat. Are you reporting that, Rob? Yes.

Absolutely. Aggregators. No, I do think this is an interesting like, window into the heat's future. Because I mean, the one thing we've been saying throughout this entire season since last off season is like, this is a very old team.

And like some of these injuries might be fluky, but like some of them might not be. And if like you're not going to get high caliber, Kyle Lowry, like doing, doing everything in addition to just flopping and trying to draw fouls, like what is this team's future, you know? Yeah, the diagnosis wasn't wrong, right?

Like they do need. Like we've been talking in this whole conversation, but how much they need shot creation. That's where you get it is from those second star types where they don't really have someone to step in for Jimmy when he's down and hurt. They don't have someone to spell Kyle Lowry beyond Gabe Vincent,

which again, bless him. Gabe Vincent had a great game, but he's not a star. So where they get it is more complicated. This is not a team that has a lot of like ballast to move around necessarily in ways that are really attractive to other teams. Because they are a team that takes guys off the scrap heap and develops them, not a team that has all these stray first-round picks around who then could

pop on your team. Yeah, because they're constantly retooling for the, for the, they're, they're so good at it that they can operate that way, that they don't have to totally go to the bottom. They can kind of stay in the middle and, and they're, they're good at that. I'm, you're thinking about what are the variables that, that are on their side? I know we're doing their posts. We're, we're calling the time of death early, like the, the Monty Python thing, they're not dead yet, but it feels like it. But I mean, the variables they have that could swing up here is, you know, maybe you get another leap from Tyler Hero. That's possible. I mean, he has a lot of the sort of modern things that you want in terms of like dribble pull up.

He has flashed at some like initiator stuff that that has been promising. Would you bet on that though, Kyle? Like, where are you on Heroes kind of trajectory from this point? I mean, he was really good this year. I mean, bouncing back from last year. I don't know, like, if we're talking, he still seems. to me like a secondary tertiary probably start is probably where I would put him. I mean, he probably is what who's the most attractive kind of guy to move on this roster? I mean, who do you think is the most desirable and getable piece on this roster? It seems like hero. Yeah. Yeah. Hero is possible. You know, maybe a team sees that and they, they think we can make a bet on that and bring him in and maybe he could make that leap for us. I would, I would think he would

be the most attractive guy. And then there's also Ola Depot if you're thinking that, or do we think Ola Depot is just done? But I think the hero question is probably more more interesting, honestly. There's a parallel there where it's like the team that would potentially trade for Hero would be betting on an Ola Depot in Indiana like bump of like this is a guy who's been useful to a couple of teams in a couple different contexts, but could he be an all star if we give him, give him more room to operate? I don't know that I see that for Tilely Hero, but I wouldn't blame a talent evaluator who does. Like if there's some scout at there who's just in love with his pull-up game, I could, I could see why you would talk yourself into it. He's the start of a trade discussion, right?

He's someone you could base a package around for a star, especially when you think about the heat, like they're probably going to get more of a Jimmy Butler situation when you're, where you have a guy who wants to go there and only there and forces a way to get there, even though the heat didn't have cap space. They worked a sign and trade in order to get him down to Miami. I could see a situation like that. And like, if you think about it, a lot of those other guys we mentioned, like work as ancillary parts. Like Duncan Robinson hasn't been good for most of the season, particularly defensively. But, you know, his contract is probably a lot. But for a guy who can shoot the lights out in a good year, like, that's a player most teams would have. Wouldn't Philly,

it would say if Philly was, for instance, just backs against the wall, they had to make this trade well, won't report to training camp. Worst case scenario, right? Like, you take back Duncan and hero you give me a struce and some other guys and whatever picks haven't already been mortgage and like that gets you something right wait did you just tie that into a joel and bade trade conversation no it's not happening well a more realistic target would probably be like let's say a bradley beale right i don't even i don't know that i see it for something like that even really how gigantic of an upgrade would bradley be'll be over hero would be my question. Is it worth it enough to make that move? I think that's an interesting discussion to

have because as like a movement shooter, I mean, heroes, I would say he's better wouldn't you? I mean, I think purely in terms of like physically creating your shot in the midrange, I think you could say Beale is better. I'd be curious to see who in the East would even trade with them, but I also would want to say like, we're sitting here having a good time because these losses have been so staggering. I mean, they've been so like, wow, that just seems like Miami has some serious problems. But if their core pieces are all there and everybody's healthy, I don't know if we, are we in?

Like, let's blow this up. Like, let's make a major move mode. I don't know, because it seems like this was a competitive series, really until that happened, until like that their big three wasn't, you know, up to snuff and healthy.

You're shaking your head. I've got like five more fake trades, man. Why you're already pivoting to rationality? Kyle, thank you. Thank you for helping me trap pivoting direction. Yeah, I know.

No, I mean, the most logical and the most likely scenarios, they just roll everything back, especially considering the money they've bunked down for certain guys. Duncan does seem like somebody that can maybe move. The money part of it is tricky there,

but, you know, could he do, let's say he ends his podcast and he moves to another, to another environment. I mean, he's a piece that I could see. But again, you're kind of running into the same kind of problems wherever you go is like are they going to run up

against another switchable team that's going to hunt him he see it seems like the conditions there are are kind of big for him yeah the other part of this is like the east doesn't seem like it's going to get any easier because in addition to the celtics you still have yannis looming let's say harden just shows up in shape for once uh and the sixers or all of a sudden could be pretty dominant the raptors are on the rise. We'll see what happens with Zach Levine. The nets are obviously a threat if Kairie Irving decides to come back to Earth. Like, there's a lot of competition here. And the problem is like, yeah, you might get some internal improvements, but you also might get some depreciation for a lot of old guys. We should mention PJ Tucker being such a huge part of this team.

And he's, what, 37, one of the oldest players in the league. Yeah. And between Tucker being 37 and I think more concerningly, Lowry being 36, where you could talk yourself into, oh, if we were just healthier, this would be a different kind of series. And I think, I think you'd be right. I think if a healthy Kyle Lowry changes the series in a lot of ways, but he may never be healthy at the end of a season again, or may never be the all-star, all-N-A-level Kyle Lowry

we know and love, the champion Kyle Lowry, that guy might be gone at this point. That just might be the reality of where he is in his career. And so that's why you have to start thinking about these things pretty seriously. Jimmy Butler is 32 years old. He is not going to get any more explosive than he is now. And, you know, the guile and the wily drives can get him so far, but

he needs a little more to work with beyond like forcing handoffs to Gabe Vincent and trying to force feed PJ Tucker in the corner for threes where I thought Jimmy Butler wanted PJ Tucker to shoot a lot more than PJ Tucker wanted PJ Tucker to shoot in this game. Well, let's look at this a little bit more holistically. Like what do the heat need? If you're like going into this off season and we're doing this a little early, so just bear with us.

We won't be here when they actually get eliminated for the playoffs. So what like Kyle, do you see something that they just. don't have, like that they don't need? Is it like just Kyle Lowry five years ago? Do they really? My question for you would be, I mean, when you have a team, you don't necessarily have to work from this point of like we have one primary heavy load lifting initiator. Like I don't think you necessarily have to build a team that way.

But a lot of the good ones do. And you're looking at this team, it's like they don't have a, they kind of by committee are a good passing team. You know, BAM's a good passer. Jimmy's a pretty good passer for what he does. is that where you need to go? Do you need to be kind of looking for a guy who was like, because the difference between Boston and Miami clearly was that Boston had a great decision maker out top who was a respectable score.

They have hero out there to maybe mature into that role, but we're not sure that he will. I don't know, he's not going to reach that level. I don't think as like, just purely based on like physical limitations. Is there somebody out there that I think could be, that could do that for them? because we don't, like we said, Jimmy kind of fits that mold when he's on and when he's really going, it's like,

what are you going to do with this guy, like in game one? But I don't know. I think that'd be my question for you guys in terms of like roster building. Is it going to be good enough for them to do this kind of by committee thing? Because it's similar to what the Warriors do

in terms of sort of a decentralized kind of thing. You know what I mean? Like really, because they're the two teams in the league that do that. They do more cutting, more off-screen stuff. Do they need one more Jordan Poole? Do they need somebody like that to kind of come out of nowhere?

I don't know, man. It's something that kind of seems like it runs at odds with their philosophy too. I think what they need, and it goes beyond a forward or a 3-D wing or a ball handler, they need a way to be precise because they're a physical team, a very physical team. They're a very resourceful team full of really smart players. They just don't have a lot of precision to the way they operate. And that's why if Duncan Robinson or Max Strues, gets kind of bumped off of their route,

it can disrupt the offense for six to eight seconds. Then all of a sudden you're searching for something at the end of the clock. And so if the way to get to that is having a more traditional initiator lead guard type, then that's great. If the way to get to that is Bam, reinventing himself and figuring out ways where he can be aggressive and help, you know, the team get into the offense at the same time,

great. Maybe it's just like you need a dead eye shooter, you know, someone like even like a Jordan Poole like you were saying, Kyle, just someone who demands attention when they move around the court beyond just like Duncan Robinson who can get top locked out of a game. I think there's lots of ways to get there,

but it's tough given their salary situation, given their roster situation. They kind of have to reinvent the wheel in a lot of ways in terms of how they're thinking about getting into their offense because they committed very hard to this style financially. And unless they can pivot out

of it slightly to get to a place where they can be a little bit more playoff solvent, I think they're going to run into some version of this problem against a lot of really good teams. Yeah. The Janus returning to Milwaukee decision not only helped the bucks clearly, but it also put a lot of other teams that were hoping to get Janus in very difficult positions. It seems like the Raptors rebounded pretty successfully by digging into the top of the draft, but like the heat signed Lowry with what they would have given presumably to Janus said,

do you want to come there? And it seems like that contract could be pretty brutal the next two seasons in 28, 29 million in the next two. And then Dallas, the team we're going to talk about in a couple seconds, also still like doing okay, but still maybe need that second guy. To ignore all of the very nuanced and interesting things that you guys brought up, can I just throw out another pie in the sky name? Please. Damien Lillard.

Oh, man. Because here's the thing. It has less to do with like fit or anything like that. It's more I'm very increasingly worried about the Portland Trailblazers. because I don't know if you watched the lottery where Dame was very upset that his team didn't jump higher. It seemed very much like someone

who was hoping that all of the turmoil that the Blazers went through last year getting rid of pretty much every friend that he had on the team that's been with him for all these years. He just needs another friend basically is why he was mad, right? He just like, seems like lonely.

Where does that come from? And like you're seeing the Jeremy Grant rumors burble more and more where it's like, oh, they could turn the seven pick into Jeremy Grant. I'm like, that'll do it. Exactly. And so like, I don't know. Like, I don't see a pathway to a very quick reboot here.

Are you asking us how adults make friends? Is that what you're asking? I mean, I've been asking that for my entire adult life. We know. Just let me know. I don't know if you heard before about me going to bed in 10pm. No, but like I do think we're probably a couple months away from that ending up being a pretty explosive situation.

It seems like it's headed for a divorce, if not later than definitely sooner. Well, what makes this hard to parse for teams like the heat or teams that might need a star or star-adjacent player in whatever way is, I do think Dame is going to give it a shot to see how things break in Portland. And similarly, like, Embed is going to go back into the season

and see how it works with Hardin. And I think maybe there's conversations to be had around, you know, going into next year's deadline or after a couple months into the season. but I don't see a lot of like off-season star movement on our horizon here necessarily in terms of trades. I don't know. I feel like a lot of the guys who are going to be in that mix are in Wade and C mode, maybe even when they shouldn't be.

Maybe they're being generous or loyal, but I don't know. I don't necessarily think guys like Dane were going to be on the market so quickly. And so then you get into the point like he got into with Kyle Lowry in the first place, where it's like we love this guy. But we didn't get him at the trade deadline. We thought we were going to get him. and then we have to wait, and then he gets hurt, and your time is just kind of frittering away

when you get into that cycle. Yeah. One thing I'm silently tracking is if free agent money is actually dumb money now, like kind of like it was in the NFL for a very long time, where like everyone who is actually a value that you do want to sign is going to sign early, and you're going to have to trade for him, and the contracts are going to come out in free agency are actually going to be pretty bad. But I don't know if we have enough of the sample for that.

But last year's free agency was, I think, by and large, pretty awful. Just something to keep in mind there. Your guide, your guide JV told you in advance. The playoffs are heating up and you can make every game feel like Game 7 on Fandul's sports book and official partner of the NBA. Throughout the playoffs, all customers can place a no sweat same game parlay each week. You'll get up to $20 in free bets if you don't win. Fandul has so many ways to play.

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All right. So we got ourselves a series. Dot, dot, dot, question mark. So the mad. I was like, what? What? Yeah. We have a longer series. I guess the question really is, like, Rob, we can start with you, our Texan on staff here. Same as a Floridian, same as a Kentuckian, you know.

It's all the same basic area. It's just really humid and it's all you need to know. Can the Mavs come back from 3-0? A feat that we should mention never happened in NBA history. And they do it. And yet you ask. You know, expecting me, I'm sure, to take the bold stance that they are going to do the thing that no team has ever done before in the history of the NBA, right? I've never expected you to take a chance.

Literally anything. No, I mean, I think if you're going to make a case for it, the Mavs clearly have the firepower in order to swing some of these games just with Luca, first and foremost, obviously. They have the best player in the series. Right. And then, like, the high variance aspect of the three-point shooting.

Like when they're on, they're on. And when they're not, it has been particularly bad. And you could say that's one of the main reasons why some of the earlier results snowballed on them so fastly. So, like, if you're a build a team who could do it, Dallas is kind of in the mix. They do have some factors working in their favor. I mean, there might not be a wider range in the league between what the Mavs look like when their guys are hitting shots versus what they look like when they aren't.

I mean, those are, that's a chasm between those two things. So if you get a couple of games in a row where the Reggie Bullocks and the Dorian Finney Smiths are hitting everything they take like they seem to in the previous game, you're in a good spot. But that's where I think game two is really going to come back to haunt them

because that was a game where they shot well, where Luca had 42 points, where Jalen Brunson scored well, and they blew it. You know, that was the one they needed because at this point, leaving yourself no room for error, no room for your guys to have a cold night,

I think that might be asking a bit much of them at this stage. What do you think, Kyle? there seems to be a little bit of a little pension for I've seen teams like this over the years that's they kind of need to be in no shit mode to like really get it together you know I kind of get touch the stove touch the stove you said yeah yeah I mean they need to

they need to kind of feel like okay we don't have any I was like this in school where it was just like you gave me 20 minutes to do an assignment I'd be like oh 18 minutes okay here we go like I would never start at 20 minutes ever talking about our entire staff of writers no comment no comment just saying just saying that i could never really think until the pressure was on i don't know i kind of do you ever get that rob rob you're the mav's expert i mean i'm i'm misinterpreting that because i kind of felt like they kind of did that when they played around a little bit with utah they definitely took it to the limit as we saw with phoenix but they seem like their motivation seems kind of like very up and

down like they they really seem to lock in and get focused when like it's it's go time well they better hope so at this point i mean i think it bodes well for them that they've come back in these series in such a big way that maybe there's a precedent there for putting something together at the end of this one but even even having your backup against the wall and whatever focus and drive and resilience that gives you i just don't think is enough i mean Kyle how have you felt about the warriors in the sense that they were so sloppy in the previous rounds and then all of a sudden look like themselves again. I mean, do you think that is who they are?

Or do you think there is potential of these next couple games for them to trip over their own feet a little bit with some of their turnover issues we saw earlier? Well, the things that I've heard from Mavs people, specifically Charks was talking about how I think this could be already over, depending on like if the Warriors made some odd choices in terms of like lineups in the past game, like trotting out Kaminga and Moody together at different times. This could be already over. My wonder now is it like, was that a little bit of a misleading result in this past

game? It just seems like they have problems like that the MAVs are going to have a hard time answering. Like they're creating problems for the MAVs that are kind of stressing some of their we were talking about Miami's long-term problems. I would imagine this is a segue into something we want to talk about with Dallas going forward, assuming their season isn't going to be. over.

They'll pull back the curtain. We're trying to do this elegantly streaming these things together. I'm going to screenshot the doc and play it on Twitter here. One second. Yeah. The Warriors,

I don't know if they can beat the Celtics if they get into that series. I'm not trying to project too far ahead here. But I mean, I definitely think that they can turn this on or off. And when they, similar kind of thing,

when they focus them and they're playing their brand of basketball, yeah, I think this is who they are. I think they're really difficult team to guard and they're presenting just too many problems for the Mavs to overcome at this point. I mean, the Prometheus

touched the stove team, right? The team that needs to like fuck around in order to like do what they do. It just seems like this is kind of their MO. If they had gone and won this series 4-0, I might have been a little worried because like they're at their best when they're just like turning it over

and having fun. and, like, creating new challenges for themselves. I mean, they signed to Marcus Cousins in the midst of a dynasty, almost to, like, give themselves extra motivation. So, like, I could... Easy. Yeah. Sorry, Kyle.

Another family member of yours. But I don't know. I don't know about you guys, but I thought, like, the process overall has been better for the Mavs. Like, I remember in the first game, and maybe in the first two games, like, them actually getting into the paint in order to collapse the defense was, like, a rarity.

Like very rarely where they trying to get in the score at the room is all like taking the shots from outside. And that's their offense. It's driving kick. And it's been very successful for them. Just ask Chris Paul. But like it just seems like they're getting more than they were. And that has then opened up the three point shots, which fell in game four. But it just seems like overall, they're just playing a lot better.

They are. But I mean, even in game one, all the shot quality metrics and stuff said the Mavericks had great looks in game one. The Mavericks would tell you. they had great looks in game one, and they just lost because their guys hit 20-something percent of their threes in that game, I think. So, we couldn't buy one in that game. I mean, maybe some of the process stuff was there all along, but I do think some of the stuff that has evolved is Luca having an even better sense

of when he can attack, when he can work over those little creases in the middle of the defense. You see him manipulating guys inside a little bit more in some of these situations in a way that's ultimately obviously very productive for the Mavs, but bodes well in terms of having something you can work out. out of and evolve from and build and build and layer offense. And so you hope that between that and some of the shooters coming along, maybe you've got something to work with here. But again, it's just the margin for error is brutal against the team like the Warriors.

Like, how are you supposed to beat these guys that many times in a row? Well, moving forward, that is a nice segue to talk about the Mavs in the broader sense, just like we did, the Miami Heat. There's already been what now, five days, almost a week of postmortems on Dallas. We got ahead of those. So they have been picked apart And we've been looking ahead for a little while now But Rob, you wrote about them

Earlier this week just about In your estimation They have a foundation Yeah for going forward And I think like It's a bit of a zag In comparison to what you hear otherwise Because I think a lot of people are like

Where do they get that second star? But like why don't you run us through like you're thinking on them I mean my thing of it is They have a basic formula That works pretty damn well And that's Luca Plus a really high level defense that they built not with a Rudy Gobert or a Draymond Green

or one of these all-world defenders, they just took a bunch of really good defenders, or at least as many as they could find, strung them together and got those guys to play really taught, coordinated basketball. And if you can do that with this group and you can add even a little bit more role-playing talent, and again, some things as givens.

Luca continues to improve. You bring back Jalen Brunson, some things like that. If those things continue to swing your way, I think the MAVs are a lot closer than people think. And some of it is games like Game 2, where if this is a 2-2 series, obviously we're not having these conversations.

You know, if they win Game 2 and Game 4, not as big of a deal. So I think we're a little bit like sweep-pilled in terms of thinking about this is like a team that's in dire straits when it's a team with a superstar in his early 20s that just got to the Western Conference finals and does have the ability to improve.

They don't have the assets to go out and get that next star per se, but they have the ability to take good NBA players and make them better and take a roster and make it better than the sum of its parts. That to me is infinitely more valuable than oh, we might get into the lottery

for Star X. Counterpoint. The Warriors aren't going anywhere. Yeah. The Mavs can't. Are you positing that the Mavs can just run it back and bank on Luka will get better?

Brunson will get better. I'm genuinely posing this question. You don't think that there's any person. There's no, it's just a big if. Yeah. And you think the nuggets are going to be coming back. The clippers are going to be rounding back into form with their guys who have given the Mavs trouble in the past.

I'd be interested to see the jazz are regressing as we, as we know. Phoenix, Lord knows what's going to happen with them. Russell Westbrook back again. Russell Westbrook is still out there just on the prowl for the next, for his next conquest. You don't think there's any move they need to make. Like, go ahead. I'm not saying don't try. I'm not saying don't try to get other star players.

What I'm saying is if you don't, I think this is a team that could get to the finals without another star. That's what I'm saying. And it may take some breaks in their favor. It may take, you know, going into next season, Draymond Green looking a little bit older

or Steph looking a little, starting to look their age a little bit. It might take some factors like that. It might take the nuggets not looking like the team that we think that they could be. You know, maybe all the pieces come back and they don't fit exactly like they did during that magical, you know, multi-week stretch before everyone started getting hurt. So I think they need some stuff to break in their favor. But I think that this is a team that is, you know, not necessarily a Brad Beale away from being a serious contender, but one or two more Reggie Bullocks away. You know, just like, give me some guys who can fill playoff minutes where I don't have.

have to throw Josh Green and Frank Nilequina out there. I don't have to, you know, feed Davis-Britons to the buzzsaw of the warrior's offense. You know, like, give me someone who can fill those spots. And I think this is a finals worthy team. Can I bridge the two takes here? I think what Rob is suggesting makes them a very good regular season team. But I worry that they would run into issues in the playoffs because they just got to the Western Conference finals. Yeah, but like we're talking about one of the best talents. in like what the past 20 years? Yeah.

In Luka Dantzich, like the bar is winning a championship. And if we're already saying like maybe they won't be better than the Warriors, maybe they won't be better than the Clippers, maybe they won't be better than the Nuggets, like you're already starting at a place where I don't think you should be. Like clearly they could win in the regular season with what they have because I think was it after the All-Star break or after January 1st, I forgot what the benchmark was.

Like they had the second best record behind the Celtics. Although if you looked at, I think it was point differential, or maybe net rating, like they're actually closer to the middle of the pack, so we'll see. But like they have, I think Rob,

like a good foundation for a very good regular season team. But I do wonder they need to level up in the playoffs. They need a second guy, especially if it's not Brunson. If they're going to take a step back in the Brunson spot,

then that gets particular work. Yeah, if Brunson leaves and he's an unrestricted free agent so he could just walk out the door if he decides that's what he wants to do, then it gets big, it gets bad. You know,

they really cannot afford to lose him because not having the ability to bottom out and get high draft picks to replace a guy like that or have really meaningful cap space to replace a guy like that or having the young guys on the roster already who you could trade to get someone like that. That's where you get into a situation where someone like Luca hypothetically could get very frustrated very quickly with his lot kind of dragging this team along. But if Brunson is this kind of guy over a longer term where he can give you a reliable 18 to 20.

I still like where they are. I don't know. Maybe that makes me naive to think that way, but I see a team that just unwound the best regular season team in basketball this season that just completely bucked a really good jazz offense out of the playoffs, and I see something to work with there.

Well, I mean, the Pelicans almost also beat the Suns. I think there's still a lot to be determined about the Suns. Well, so who's good that you're worried about? The Warriors, and the Clippers, particularly. I think the Clippers could be an absolute juggernaut next season. The wolves are coming. I'm curious that, like, you... Grizzlies, too, we didn't mention it.

I mean, the Grizzlies, yeah, I'm going to hear for that one. I mean, the Mavs have now gotten farther than any of those teams, save the Warriors, ever have. Well, here's the question, I think. Sorry to cut you off, Kyle. But, like, I do think we're in an era where Luca plus guys isn't really going to work anymore because the entire NBA is so talent-rich. I think it would have worked back in the day with someone like LeBron, just carrying whatever riffraff he has into the NBA finals,

and not to say that the MAVs have riffraff. If anything, they found a lot of hidden gems from second round undrafted. They did a pretty remarkable job just on the fringes, building guys around, Luca. But I just don't think you could win in 2022 with that basic mindset, just one dominant star and guys. You need at least like a secondary creator, a Cleveland, Kyrie type,

maybe a rim protector to show up the defense in order to get there. That's all. Yeah, we saw, I mean, I think I was talking with Rob about this, that the problem that you run into with a Luca floor razor is that your your basement is never going to be quite as low, which means that you're always going to have a team that's going to be competent. We saw that from like LeBron and those teams from like 06. I guess that was, you know, 06 all the way through the end of his time in Cleveland as he

would elevate some of those lesser teams just because of the range of his impact. And I guess I'm curious too about like, do you think that they could stand to have an upgrade in terms of like a guy who is a little more athletic, a little more, just is there an upgrade to be made at the five spot? Because I feel like Cleber has been so up and down and just kind of killed them with with his limitations at times. That's where I've kind of pinpointed. Is there an upgrade out there that could be made? Who would you even move? I don't know. But what do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, Kleba is a little miscast right now. I think ultimately he's a really good change of pace go a little smaller kind of center.

And because Dwight Powell has basically been unplayable in some of these matchups, he's their default option at center in a way that really overtaxes him. My worry with the rim protector, which I agree is probably their biggest need. I would kind of lean that way more so than they need another ball handler. They need a secondary playmaker. Again, assuming Jalen Brunson is back. He kind of fills some of that need from my perspective. But a rim protector, they definitely need my...

The catch is finding a guy who is a... a good shot blocker who also isn't going to get schemed out of a series. And I think, you know, a Rudy Gobert type is a dream. Like, I think he's a much better playoff player defensively than people give him credit for. My issue is more like if you're, if you're swinging for a rim protector or a shot blocker with mid-level money or slightly above mid-level money or on a more modest budget in terms of a trade or something like that, I don't know that those are the guys who really

solve your problems. If we're talking about who do you like, who do you need to have on the floor against the warriors getting a good like work a day seven footer, I don't know that that's really the answer. I don't, that's not even what I was suggesting. I was suggesting more of somebody that's like maybe not a true, a true big like that more of a like a 4.5, like a John Collins type, you know, not that those guys grow on trees. You know, it's no big deal. Just go out there and get a rim protector that can also hit threes, you know, it's not, it's not a huge deal. What are they waste there why are they waiting to do this um it's it's a tough quandary i mean i've tried i've joked about like i've tried to trade p j washington to their team like a million times because i just

think it would be really fascinating because he's more athletic than cleva see we are we are aligned though like p j washington is the kind of player i'm talking about that i think like if you give them a p j washington and the wing equivalent of a p j washington i think that this is a very competitive series what about miles turner maybe I have visions in my mind. As soon as you say the name Miles Turner, the first thing that comes into my head is Luca breaking down three dudes off the dribble,

whipping an amazing pass to Miles Turner, and he misses a three over and over and over and over. Like Miles Turner is an okay perimeter shooter. I think that smart defenses would make that the end point of every Mavericks possession they possibly could if they had that opportunity. I mean, the extreme option would be DeAndre Aitn. I don't know what you would send back to the Sons.

Yeah, there's nothing of appeal there. I wouldn't think for the sons. I would also wonder what the psychological effect would be to be playing behind Luca essentially for Aiton. Because on the one hand, it's like our powers combine. Like the two guys who were jostling for the number one spot finally joined forces. But on the other hand, like,

I don't know if I want to put Aiton through that. You can't do that. That'd be like playing Markell Fultz next to Jason Tatum or something like that. Like you can't do that to that guy's psyche, I don't think. Emotional abuse. The one that I threw to you, Rob, there was, which I thought was interesting. I said this to Charks, too, on our show. What if you buy low on a risky guy like Jonathan Isaac, the guy who is sort of a distressed asset may come back?

If you welcome in Texas, let me tell you. That crossed my mind. I'm not going to act like it didn't. I'm just saying, I think these are the margins they're playing in, though. I think that they took a risk with getting Bertons and Dinwiddie that I think paid off. I mean, they got good playoff minutes from them. They've been up and down. I mean, Bertons, one of the weird or menacing, like, he is like this weird, like, Scott Farkas smile that he does sometimes whenever, whenever he's gotten into a scrum.

I don't know. The double thumbs up the other night? Love it. Yeah, he just has this, like, squinty smile. I'm just like, ugh, he's kind of scary. I think, no, I was just, generally what I'm trying to say here is that, like, I think these are the margins they're playing in. And I think that when you have a star like Luca, this is what you have to do.

Maybe occasionally you have to take a risk. That was just an idea. And I kind of wondered if the magic would be moving him at some point, but I will see. I don't know. Maybe a pie in the sky idea there. Sure, sure. Well, and University of Texas legend, Mo Bamba could be on the block. Like if we're talking shot blockers,

I think you're either looking at that level of kind of, I wouldn't see Obama's distressed at this point. Like he's kind of working his way back and improving himself in a role. You're either looking at that kind of player or you're looking at probably a Klingkapela level player as far as like a start. If starting center is your priority,

I think those kinds of guys might be within reach. Maybe like in a Vizza Zubats or something, although he's pretty important to the clippers. Maybe they don't part with him. them. Those are the kinds of doors I would be knocking on. Right. I would say that, like, I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, Rob, that, like, maybe they don't need, like, a star per se to round this out. But I would say that there's successes filling out this roster, undrafted guys, mostly second round guys,

a couple low firsts, although the low first guys tend to be, like, more reserve types than even some of the more primary players. I almost wonder if that track record gives you a license to really swing for the fences and trade a bunch of first round picks. Now, how valuable are those first round picks to other teams? Maybe not so much because you expect any team with Luca is going to be pretty competitive. Those picks are going to be in the 20s for the foreseeable future, right? But I do wonder if they're at the moment right now, considering their success, to really pull off a Drew Holiday type of trade, mortgage your future and say,

like, hey, we're going to bring someone in on the Drew level just to make sense of what we have right now and just to go from above average to potentially create. And that's the type of move I'd be looking for them. Oh, yeah. I mean, the Mavs fans and media have been grinding the trade machine already. I've seen, I've seen like constructions where they get Zach Levine and Rudy Gobert.

Guys, it's not happening. Let me just pour ice cold water on that right now. Let's moderate our expectations. That's really what my column was all about. Like, let's chill out here. Let's step back.

Let's understand. understand that, you know, we're hoping the wolves take our call about Jaden McDaniels. That's kind of where we are. Another bold take. My God. I guess you just wonder if, like, how much of this was like, do we think that there's a difference between like a run in a tournament and like a conquest in a tournament? I know the second time I've used the word conquest.

I don't know. It's kind of felt like they've strung this together a little bit. I'm not trying to like downplay or insult what the matters are done because they are good. This is working, but it feels very volatile to me. Like, it just feels very like, I think they just that, and we haven't really seen a center of an offense superstar skip that needing the extra star. You know, we saw like, like we've seen it over and over again. LeBron. We've seen it with Janus. It's just, you need that other guy. Do they have that other guy? I'm not positive about that. Can they, can they do that by committee with Brunson and Dinwiddie? That's kind of where I'm talking about,

like the volatility of it has been, that's where I have my eye for them and the five. It just seems like there's some moves to be made. But we'll see. Well, Kyle, you brought that to this podcast, my friend. Not the volatility, but that little extra something we needed to get over the hump. I'm happy to do it anytime, man. Yeah, you're like the tuck wagon of this podcast.

I feel like this, I feel like we had a little bit more of a jolt this week, Rob. No? It was good. But comparing Kyle to the tuck wagon when the tuck wagon just got run straight off the road, I don't know that seems rude to our guest. Well, then we're very similar then. I feel like when I watch the tuck wagon, I can kind of like relate to the way he moves a little bit.

A lot of these guys in their mid to late 30s, I'll hear people, this has killed me. I'll like listen to them talk about like, man, what happened? He was so good the other night. I just want to tell you guys, this is like spare some exceptions like Last Dance Jordan era. If you're in your mid to late 30s, man, this is life as a basketball player.

This is what it is. You'll go out there one night and you'll be like, I still got it. And you'll go out the next night and be like, I guess I should just take up cycling. Like, I think that is the way it works. It's up and down like that. So I don't know. I wouldn't read too much into this. This is what it is, in my opinion.

Listen, I think we're going to look back in like five years and be like, huh, PJ Tucker was on every consequential team and might be one of the most important players in modern basketball history because he kind of unlocked a lot of things for a lot of important players and teams. Yeah, show me the last good team that didn't have PJ Tucker, Danny Green, or Kavana Looney on it. Just show them to me. I dare you. It's a great point.

All right, let's wrap it there. We'll be back next week. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely in production. And thank you to Jay Kyle Mann for joining us. We'll see you next week.