The Ringer NBA Show - The Improbable Pacers Finish Off the Knicks. Plus, an Early Finals Lookahead. | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 1, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos react to the Pacers punching their ticket to the NBA Finals with their win in Game 6 over the Knicks. They discuss Conference Finals MVP Pascal Siakam’s excellent series, Tyrese Haliburton and much more. Then they look ahead to what’s next for the Knicks this offseason (21:50) and wrap up with some early thoughts on the NBA Finals match up between the Pacers and Thunder (44:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto  This episode is presented by State Farm®️. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm®️ with the Assist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Varyer and joining me in the black zoot suits, ready for the funeral game. Rob Mahoney, Big Waz. My question for you guys is, so Tyrese Halliburn won the game. So he called his shot. But does he get points deducted for harkening back to the zootsuit era?

Well, I think he might have missed the Met Gala. And that was actually the theme for the Met Gala this year was like the black dandy. So these big boxy, nasty-looking suits was like what people was rocking. And so this was his chance to be a part of that cultural moment here on one of the NBA's biggest stages. Genuine question. Do you think he got an invite to the Met Gala? And subsequent question, now that he's going to be an NBA finalist, do you think he gets one next year? I would be surprised if he wasn't invited. Like Tyrese Halliburton has clearly hired like PR people and image consultants. Like he's trying to be as famous as possible.

so I'd be shocked if like the people behind the scenes couldn't get Halliburton and invite like some of the people at this point they get invited to the Matt Gallo like Halliburton is actually worthy of it. But he runs the city of New York now, Justin. You know, like this is his territory. It's true. But does he always, does he already have a stylist or is he freelancing? Because if he has a stylist, I would love that job. I promise you he's not freelancing. The news boy had didn't happen by accident.

This episode is brought to you by State Farm on the basketball court. The best players know when to pass. pass and off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need, you could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm, with the assist coverage options are selected by the customer,

ability and eligibility vary by state. Considering the way he played in the Eastern Conference Finals and throughout this postseason, I think he could do whatever he wants at this point because the Pacer shut the door on the next. New York Knickerbockers game six. They're going to the NBA finals. Rob Mahoney, how do you feel? I feel great.

You know what? I feel like I've been wearing my black on black on black suit in these pods all season, trying to tell you guys that the Pacers had, if I remember from our pie conversation, like a 1% chance to win the NBA title. And you tried to shut me down. Told me it wasn't possible. It couldn't be done. Not even a sliver.

Not even the sliver of the pie. I'm ecstatic. Honestly, here's the thing. Like, there are teams that make the finals because they are overwhelmingly talented teams. It is awesome to see the Pacers make the finals because they are very talented in their own right, but also because they tapped into something much greater than that, much more important than that.

And much more fun to watch than that. Like, how cool is it that one of the most entertaining teams in the league is going to the NBA finals because they are also one of the best teams in the league? Yeah, I love that Rob talked about that thing, that ineffable thing that's in the air with these Pacers. You call it a mind meld. You call it chemistry. I don't know.

You call it continuity. Whatever you want to call it, these guys have a singular vision for how they want to go out and attack and beat teams. And they are on it. From Siakum to Miles Turner to obviously Halliburton. Like everybody's getting in on this. We just play faster and harder than every single opponent. And that was the thing that got me today, man. just the runouts, the constant runouts on makes or misses.

Turn over. It doesn't matter what it is. We're running out and beating these guys to the punch and just doing it. Every single quarter they were doing it. And eventually, I think that's what caused the separation in this game is the amount of points they didn't have to try to grind out in the half court. Meanwhile, I'm watching Jalen Brunson just pounding the rock 40 feet from the basket. Would a dude draped all over him.

I thought that was just the difference in today's game, man. Yeah, I mean, if you had your head and in the sand throughout this postseason and we're just watching this game, I think this was the representative sample of what the Pacers have done all the playoffs and like why they are in this position. Toaz's point, it felt like Pascal Seaccom looked like Michael Johnson out there on some of these fast breaks. I don't know how he got down the court so quickly. It was almost like he was teleporting at a certain point, but also like to marry that with the defense. Nemhart was in Chalen Brunce's shorts, Rob, pretty much that. entire game.

Let's just put this Andrew Nemhard game straight into the luf. Like unbelievable for performance from him doing, frankly, the one thing he hasn't really been able to do for two straight years, which is slow down Jalen Brunson to really impact Jalen Brunson's process. Amazing game from him. And I say that basically independent of the fact that he finally started hitting shots. Incredible all around floor game. Amazing defense from Nemhardt showed up at a time where he absolutely had to show up because

the Pacers tried to put Aaron Neesmith on Brunson at the jump. and it was clear that he wasn't getting around the screen super well. The ankle is still bothering him. That's going to be something we're going to have to talk about going into the finals now as well as Aaron Eastman's status and his health and his mobility because he's a really important part of this team. But Nemhard delivering on the thing that he hasn't been able to do in this series, that he wasn't able to do in last year's playoffs, affecting one of the best shot makers in the league and one of the most dynamic guards in these playoffs, just tremendous work from him. Yeah, and much like they had throughout this postseason, they're also using a lot of guys on top of that. It's funny that the Knicks kind of clawed back into the series by making use of their bench. And for the Knicks, that means using two extra guys.

And to their credit, Delonwright, uh, sham it. Like, they showed up yet again. Like the fact that they were getting credible minutes from those guys at this point was just a godsend. But then you see the Pacers go to the bench for their bench where they played 11 guys in this game's seven plus minutes. And all of them had certain moments. Obie Toppin yet again just with the dynamic dunks at the end. just to punctuate things, definitely salt in the wound there. But Thomas Bryant, just a three and G center there coming back from the grave.

I didn't think we were going to live long enough to see the Thomas Bryant game. I'm going to be honest with you. I mean, there's been moments in his career where I was like, oh, I like this guy. He's like an energetic backup big or whatever. But like recently he's been kind of bad. And so the idea that he would come in this game and splash three corner three. No hesitation corner threes, by the way. This wasn't like, oh, the Knicks were slow in their rotation.

He's like, oh, I guess I got to take it. This is a catch and immediately shoot it like he's Reggie Miller, corner threes, which I thought was crazy, had a transition take that he got fouled on. Just a transcendent game from that dude. That was wild to watch. But, you know, that's the kind of thing when you're up three, two. You've been the better team all series. You're at home.

you got the home crowd behind you. That's the kind of confidence you can feel in those shots, man. There was no tightness to the Pacers whatsoever tonight. And again, it's about the stakes of these things. Like Miles Turner was in foul trouble. So you get even more Thomas Bryant minutes than you may have bargained for. And for him to deliver in those minutes is even more important than basically any other sin he's played in this series.

Yeah. They used the full spice rack, I would say in this game. And it's so crazy. Even the pre-mixed Italian seasoning? I'm always a little wary of that one. Oh, my God. They're using the ground oregano. They got the human out there.

Everything bagel seasoning. Yeah. We're better than that. I think the off brands from Trader Joe's for sure. No, I just, I think maybe it's a credit to the system yet again that they're able to mix and match there where everyone seems to be on the same page about what the role is. And in fact, like when Matherin isn't giving them what they need, he's able to downshift it. Now, is he, is he pleased with that? Probably not.

He seems like a pretty headstrong confidence sort of guy. But like he played nine minutes in this game and they didn't really. miss him. Whereas if one guy for the Knicks isn't up to their level, especially when it's Brunson and towns, it just feels like an existential crisis. Completely. And I think the reason that crisis exists is because the Pacers put you through

so much in terms of trying to guard them in games like this, trying to guard them in series like this. Like for the Knicks, they had an amazing defensive performance in game five. Guess what? You get to come out and do it all over again, all of that ball pressure, all of that intensity,

all of these actions and distractions that Indiana puts you through. Now you got to do it all over again and they're ready for it. And I thought Tyrese Halliborne in particular came out with so much more like purpose in terms of the way he was attacking. He was actually breaking down that first line of defense, getting into the lane, creating problems that then New York had to try to solve. The in-between game, like basically put this game away with his floater officially. Like that was kind of the killing blow in terms of building out this margin before the OB-top

and dunk contest started in earnest there. but even earlier, you know, like he wasn't piling up points, but he was causing problems for the Knicks because they were overplaying him so much, because they were trying to pressure so much. And so you have all that happening. And then at the same time, you have the Pacers dragging Jalen Brunson and Kat into as many actions as they possibly can. And then we sit here wondering,

why does Jalen Brunson look so run down by the second quarter of this game? He's having to work his ass off just to stay on the floor. And he's having to do that because the Pacers make him do it. Yeah, they were single covering Brunson. like he was Vivas Island out there like pretty much the entire length of the floor. And it's crazy because things seemed even hard for the Knicks in this game in the paint. Like they scored 54 points in the paint, but it just seemed like everything was difficult in the way that even it hadn't been before.

A lot of times where the Knicks were just throwing their knees up just to like hit guys. Oh yeah. Or intentionally or unintentionally in the other regions. That's unbelievable. But then even when they did score, they would just be. an instant run out the other way. There was one play in that fourth quarter where towns did everything he possibly could ultimately fell to the floor and he almost looked like a potato rolling off the counter and hitting kitchen floor. And it's just like it would take me like 20 seconds to get up,

but they were already, the action was already the other way. And he had to get his big ass up on his hobbled knee and sprint all the way back because that's what the pacer's force you to do. It's just like, it's an impossible task for most team, let alone a team that's a little bit more methodical. and so dependent on so few players. Yeah, I mean, like, if identity is who you are as a team when things aren't going your way, the Pacers are the team that run their asses off after every make. Like, Pascal Seacom is beating you down the floor.

Tyrese Hallibor and T.J. McConnell had a great hit ahead too. I think it was to Obie Toppin for like a free bucket or a drawn foul. Like, they're just going to put that pressure on you. And they're so good at getting the ball in so quickly. And they're so attentive in terms of knowing where the release valves are on the floor in transition. I know that Messiah Jiri, has been very complimentary of Pascal Seacom. It seems like they have a very close relationship

and he was very morose. And he was sad about letting him go when he ultimately had to trade him to Indiana at the last trade deadline. Do you think there's any buyers or sellers remorse there? Because I'm watching Seacom, I'm like, why couldn't he have just done a version of this with Toronto?

Well, they don't have Tyrese Halliburton, for one. Yeah, that's what I think it is. Like, they clearly didn't have the bona fide engine of an offense or team for that matter, the way that Indy so clearly did. And they felt that way immediately. Even if you love Scotty Barnes, part of the problem was like,

Ciacom is playing the same position as Scotty Barnes. And, you know, there's that awkward tension of trying to make those two work in tandem with one another. And, you know, sometimes things just run their course. You know, it's like Pascal had been there. from the beginning, won a championship, you know, turn it to an All-Star, all that stuff. And maybe it was just time to do something different.

And I don't know. I don't think the Raptors would be, you know, replacing Indy in the finals had they not made the Siakum deal, right? Like, I don't think anybody believes that. And so I don't think there's any seller's remorse. She should be happy for Pascal. I think the seller's remorse is more like it was a weird series of events that led the Raptors to kind of hold on to Seacum as long. as they did. Like, they had such a weird season.

It wasn't weird, Rob. It was Messiah and Danny Ains. They're the same. They like to wait, wait, wait, wait till the perfect trade. You can't make a good trade. It has to be perfect. And so they wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And now it's like, all right, we just got to take whatever the hell we could get from

Indy for it. That was not the perfect trade. Pascal Seacom, though, even, I would say even then and especially now, it's just very clear he's an all-in-Ba caliber player. Like, whether he makes the team or not, he's always going to be kind of in that mix on the periphery absolutely deserves it a two-way weapon and i think your point was about like complementary skill sets he and scotty barns like good forwards who can make plays can play off of each other but it's not the same as having a point guard like tyrie's caliber

who's going to find you on every duck and who's going to find you on all those leakouts who you can run pick and roll with and if they switch you punish them like you just can't do that if it's a siacum barns pick and roll you know pick and roll pick and pop i mean everything inverted pick and roll like i mean you name it these you know mid rain you know Post up. It's crazy. Yeah, you just think back to that draft, though, and you wonder, like, if the Raptors had been a little bit more intentional, intentional about prioritizing Siakum as their guy and maybe not drafting Barnes, who obviously

overlapped with some of the skill sets there, maybe got more of a Suggs type of player in there. And then it's like a different sort of situation. But ultimately circles back to what the Pacers, I think, have helped him to find. I was thinking about this as was watching him go off for 31 in this game. And we should mention he ultimately did win Eastern Conference MVP, Eastern Conference Finals MVP. I can't think of a system that has unearthed another level of a guy at his already all-MBA caliber.

It's typically role players. Like I was thinking about Derek White in the Celtic system. Obviously, the Suns and shooters. It tends to be like guys who have a defined skill. Siacom went from a guy who was already an All-Star, and it feels like he's added on top of that. And this, the system, haliburn, everything that they're doing there has just pushed him to another level. And that's just a unique thing. And so if we're trying to explain why the Pacers are where they are, I think that's a big part of it.

One more thing, though, is that his jump shot has never been this reliable. It's been really good. It was not this reliable in Toronto, bro. Like, if he's open, like, it feels like it's going in from whatever distance he pulls that thing from like that was kind of his fatal flaw back in the Toronto days. was like, yeah, you could back up on them for the jump shot. And it would be some ugly, just bad misses oftentimes. And they could be above the, the only threes he would make all the time with the corner ones. But like now he can make every single shot on the floor.

So you combine that with all the Halliburton and the system stuff. And again, Carlisle, man, I really do think he deserves his flowers. Like he is coaching these guys up, man. So, yeah, it's all of that stuff combined to make him look just incredible. this entire post season. It's just been a perfect marriage in so many different ways. And Justin, as you were describing that of like a player who's better than a role player

who tapped into his game in a totally different way, the way Seaccom has, for some reason the first person who came to mind for me and the timing of this was different was Rashid Wallace to the Pistons where it's like he's already a star. He has a lot of respect in the league. But then all of a sudden he lands in the right place. And it's like, oh my, like this is just an ideal match

of player, of culture, of fit, of teammates. It's like everything just kind of locked into place for him here. And we're saying this about a player who's already been an NBA champion and Pascal Seyakum who's already been tremendous and accomplished. But this is a different thing. And him doing this in this way is a different level of achievement. Yeah. And obviously, Rashid had all the off the court stuff or just on the core stuff that is typically

off the court stuff. It's off the course. That was just weed. I mean, you know. Yeah. Well, also he just yelled at everyone. Well, there was that too. There was that too.

So that was partly why he bounced around so much. Yeah. Pascal obviously did not have that. The conversation between Rashid Wallace and Greg Doyle probably goes a little bit differently. Yeah, I think so. I think a lot differently. What do you guys think about Pascal winning Eastern Conference Finals MVP? Do you think it should have gone to Halliburton?

I probably would say Halliburton is the MVP of the team. I think he's the most important piece to what they do. But Seacom was incredible. Like he was credible Incredible in an individual sort of way. Like you could just watch him Yeah.

Creating for himself, watch him, scoring on all three levels, playing good defense, getting rebounds, like getting in transit, like he, like individually,

you could just isolate all the great things that he was doing. Whereas Halliburton, it is, his like sort of imprint is being put on the game even if the end result might not seem like

Halliburton, necessarily created it by itself, even though we know intuitively, like they're playing this way because of what Halliburton is creating. And so I understand why voters might be like, look, this guy just individually cooked people because he did.

I mean, I'm guessing the vote is probably pretty close. We haven't seen the ballots yet. I'm guessing it is. Either one is perfectly fair. You know, I, too, would probably go Halliburton. I would definitely go Halliburton. It's yet another case where, yeah, it is about like, comprehensive philosophical impact.

on play versus individual production in some of these games. And I think it's reasonable to look at Tyrese Halliburton's Game 5 and say, a superstar's job is to show up in that game, and he didn't show up in that game in the way that his team needed him to. And that's perfectly fair to hold against him. Siacom hasn't had any games quite like that. He's had some underwhelming moments or times where maybe he's like a little bit more of a background player during some Nick's runs than you might like.

But ultimately, he showed up even more consistently, over the breadth of the series in that kind of specific, productive way that voters tend to reward. So to no one's surprise, Puma already has an add out for Halliburton playing off of the overrated quote. Overrated? Doubt that.

And I have to say, this is the most mileage someone has gotten off of like nine players, just thinking that you're kind of a loser in an athletic player poll in NBA fucking history. It's just so wild. Producer Ben Cruz says Halliburton lost the vote four to three to see Akeman. there you go

four three so it was close on the other end I have to say Mitchell Robinson yet again might have been the best player on the floor like I can't believe

he's still doing what he did to that team I know obviously that was an advantage we all kind of spotlighted going into the series but like he might be the best offensive rebounder on the fucking planet

amazing offensive rebound first half he was he was everywhere the second half didn't hear a lot about Mitchell Robinson no the second half every single what you would associate with hustle stat, the tips, the runouts,

the fast break points, the turnovers, like, all of that stuff was all indie in the second half. New York Knicks did not participate in hustle stats in the second half. But the first half that was there, like, yeah, they seem to be like, all right, guys, we're right there. We just need to get to the fourth. We need to keep this thing close. But once the second half happened, the dam sort of broke. Yeah, I thought like Brunson is hounded. Cat had a hard time just like getting out of his own way for a lot of this game. Also just had a hard time, I think, turning the corner and getting to the basket in the way that he had in the last few. Overall, I just want to say like, I thought OG and Anobi was outstanding in this one.

Like so many random important baskets that kept the Knicks in it when it looked like the game was going to slip away from them. And when those guys were struggling, like Towns and Brunson combined for 16 in the first half and OG had 14. Like he was the guy who was coming up with all the big plays. And that's in addition to just like next level defensive plays that basically no other guy in the league can make. Like some of the blocks and contests that OG had, I genuinely don't even know how he got there. So credit to him for trying to keep the team in the game as long as he could. Like the Knicks needed a big time Brunson and Cat game and the Pacers did a lot to prevent that from happening. Mr. Nick, Josh Hart did not have a great outing.

Probably his worst game of the series. y'all know how much i love josh hard but good god almighty was he horrible tonight's tough yeah tough to watch it was on even pretty much this entire series i mean i i i do wonder was how nix fans are going to ultimately receive this postseason run is it they got so far after the regular season that was so mixed that like this was so unexpected we're still in the halcyon days everybody's just ready to fucking let it rip whenever or do they look back on it and say we kind of missed an opportunity here. Everyone was hobbled.

We showed up in game five. We had an opportunity to get back in the series. Like you think it's more optimistic or you think it's more disappointed? I think you got to be optimistic, honestly. Like, I don't see how a Nick fan can be honest with themselves and think the Knicks were a better team than the bases and didn't pull this out. Like, you can't actually, would a straight face make that argument? You lost to the better team. And I think why you should be optimistic.

again, like, there's no reason the Knicks organizationally should go into this offseason like, how the hell do we beat Indiana? Like, come on. You have to believe you have what it takes in your building to beat Indiana in a seven-game series. And if I'm a Nick fan, honestly, I think, like, you know, if this was the NFL, they'd be searching for a new offensive coordinator. If not outright, you know, a new coach, new head coach, an offensive might.

an offensive-minded head coach because the offense is just way too remedial. This offense just, there's no intricacies to it. There isn't, Tips doesn't have a Carl Anthony Towns package. Like, here's my package for Carl Towns. We're going to do this. Oh, when they stop this, all right, we're going to come back with this. Oh, they counted with that.

Oh, we're going to do this. Yo, Brunton, here's how you set up like, no. There's no OG package. There's no McHell Bridges package. It's just roll the balls out, basically. set a few screens, a few flares come around to this, and, you know, Brunson's going to be great individually or Carl Towns is going to be great individually.

Like, to me, the Knicks need to revamp what they're doing on offense. They need to take a long, hard look at just making it easier to score. You have really good offensive pieces on this team. It should be better. And, you know, hopefully, like, McHill Bridges getting to the gym with Chris Brickley and learn how to shoot layups.

I think it's kind of one or the other, right? Like you either need that sort of advancement on offense or you need a way to guard where you don't have these two huge targets on the floor between cat and Brunson. And that's calling on those guys individually. Maybe that's a way to manipulate the lineups or who's playing or someone they bring in the offseason.

I don't know exactly. But you kind of need one or the other. And in so many ways, the Tibbs problem or the kind of like Tibbs conundrum and the cat conundrum are one in the same. And I think Jalen Brunson kind of fact into this too, where it's like, you don't get here without those guys in some respects doing the exact kind of job that they did.

But then when you reach the highest levels of competition, some of Kat's faults are a little bit more frustrating. Some of Tibbs in flexibility can become like, feel damning in some of these games. And some of Brunson, like, and the difficulty he has in generating offense, which he's great. He's better at doing that than almost anybody in the league. But the fact that he has to do it to the extent that he does is kind of symptomatic of what you're talking about was, which is imperfect process. Let's say that. Yeah, I look at it one of

three ways. If you're like in the front office a couple days from now and just kind of looking back on what just happened and trying to plot a course for going forward, either you say like, oh, Mitchell Robinson kind of completed us in that starting lineup in a way that I think might have some legs going into next season. Like, I think a lot of us were skeptical that ultimately he would be a difference maker and he ultimately was a kind of a difference. He was definitely was. It took until late in the postseason, and so you might be able to say, like, oh, let's spin that forward, and we will just be a too big team, bring hard off the bench, bring in another credible role player, and we'll just hit the ground running next year.

That's one course of action. I think you could also say we need some reimagining with the offense, which is kind of what you guys are alluding to. I don't necessarily know what that is because it does feel like Brunson and Kat play such a methodical, specific style. I think you are boxed into, like, you know, playing into their strengths. And so you're not going to get Mike Dan and Tony in there in order to replicate what Halliburton is doing with the Pacers, you know, which might be the impulse of only because a lot of teams, when they do one thing, they want to go the complete opposite way, and that ultimately just ends up falling flat to begin with.

And then the third thing is just do we need to reimagine some of the roster spots? I do think if they want to be a cat at center team, they need to be so blistering offensively that they could just run teams off the floor in the way that the Pacers did to them. And for that, I look at guys like Bridges and OG and I'm like, we're spending a lot of money in heart on methodical defensive first players. Do we need actually an offensive first player? Because I'm like often looking around, Waz, where it's like when Brunson isn't in there or Kat isn't in there. And sometimes when they're both not in there, like, where's the offense coming? I think those guys are big enough threats offensively that you should be able to leverage how dangerous Brunson and Kat are. into something that can be consistently good

without it being like, here's the ball, beat a guy one-on-one. Like, there just needs to be more stuff being done to do it that way. Like, honestly, the team that comes to my mind is the CJ and Dane Portland team where it's like, Dane just wasn't out there

just being some, all right, 50-picking rolls a night, offensive play. He wasn't. He was getting off of the rock. They had a functional offensive system, and they leveraged his incredible talents to let other people cook. Let CJ cook. Like, their offense was always close to the top

of the freaking league without Dane behaving the way that Brunson does on offense. Like, you can have a more evenly dispersed offense while just leveraging, like, Brunson's obvious, strengths. Like, this guy has incredible range. When he gets downhill, he draws fouls. Like, like, cat can shoot from everywhere.

Like, you should be able to turn this into a functional, real NBA big boy offense, man. I don't, I don't, like, I think it would be nice, yeah, to have more secondary, actual secondary ball handlers and not, like, part-time, like, OG. I'm like, he shouldn't really be handling the rock that much. His is tough. You know, you can a little bit. Macale is decent when he's doing it. And Josh Hart, too, I think can be a trigger man for some offense. It's, I think what's striking about the Knicks in terms of like their set offense, right?

When they're like calling plays to set up stuff, a lot of those sequences almost like start and end with get Jalen Brunson the ball in this position. Like it's like it's like a half designed play where they have the setup to get Jalen Brunson on the move on a cut across the lane, on a stagger across the top. Like get him the ball with this momentum. Dot, dot, dot, dot Jalen Brunson make a play. And there isn't a lot that, like, you don't see the multi-layered action that's coming out of that. And great, offense doesn't need to be fully scripted. Look at the Indiana Pacers. They run a lot of great stuff off of principle, off of scheme, off of idea, and not just off of like, here, you go here and you here, go here.

Like, it needs to be more organic than that. But it's telling that when the Knicks do try to dial stuff up, it's a little half-baked. A lot of razzle-dazzle to ultimately get to where you know it's going to go. It reminds me of like some Kobe teams where it's like, pass, pass, pass. And then Kobe just, like, pounds the air of the ball. ball for 20 fucking seconds because that's what he's always going to do. So I don't know. I mean, if we're just going to like talk these out, if we're thinking the more extreme

path, which would be to perhaps change one of these core five players, they do if we want to kind of pivot now to our Knicks war room and like really think this out. I traded, uh, I traded Jalen Brunson and Janus on, um, on Zach Lowe's podcast. How did you manage that? What were the terms of that deal? I don't, I don't remember. It's just like, let's do it, though. So is Kat the new point guard in that situation?

No, Janice is. Okay. Point Yonis. I see. Mitchell Robinson at the two. Yeah. Deuce it power forward. Don't worry about it.

Well, I think Bridges is kind of the swing piece here because he does, he is going into the final year of his contract. Curiously has not signed an extension. Brunson did go through the whole process, what was the last off season, signing the big old extension in order to afford them the opportunity to add guys like Bridges and OG. it's a little, I don't know what's going to happen here because on the one hand you could say like where do they get that talent again.

On the other hand, you might be able to swap him for multiple players, as we've said with other teams, or you could just get a different type of player because I think a lot of teams Rob would want a guy like Bridges. He fills a lot of roles for a lot of different teams. Yeah, his market would be pretty robust, which always makes me double back to like, are we sure we want to trade him in the first place?

He can be a limited player, can be flawed, in certain respects. I don't think there's any question that he's had moments in this postseason where you see the sum of his contributions and you feel a little underwhelmed by what he's, like, whether it's the level of aggressiveness,

we talk all the time about him not getting to the basket and actually trying to finish. I think you saw some reasons for that in this series. He took a couple of layups that got swatted to all hell by Miles Turner. Like he's just not an assertive and consistent finisher inside even when he tries to do it. But more than that,

it just took him too long in this series to play up and into Tyreys Hallibor for one. The fact that that was a game five development is a damning bit of faint price. How you reconcile all that is up to you. For me, I still think you write out the McHale Bridge's experience. I have a hard time. We talked about some of the back and forth and how this is a team that's caught between whether it should lean into its offense, lean into its defense.

Do you want to paper over the limitations of Cadden Brunson? Do you want to accentuate their strengths? I think McHale kind of allows you to do some of both in a way that is ultimately healthy and I would try to augment this roster by adding one or two more players on the back end of it. Like I'm trying to improve or at least make more consistent hypothetically the Dilanwright minutes or hypothetically, you know, whoever's behind him in the rotation. The campaign minutes. Well, there's a reason those don't exist anymore.

But all of that is contingent on Tibbs playing those guys and whether you think that's realistic or not. Here's the question as an executive. If you know Tom Tippettos is your coach, do you even try to improve? your ninth man or does it only matter that you improve the mcale bridges spot and make it five percent better or 10 percent better is that should that be your primary concern if this is your coach yeah that's a great point like because if you do trade one for two like is he going to play the two if the only thing you're going to just end up with the one just the worst version of that so i don't know

was do you have any ideas here beyond trading for yonis like i just have a hard time believing they're going to do anything dramatic in the off season after the first conference finals in 25 years. It just seems highly unlikely that anything besides extending bridges, bringing Mitchell Robinson back, running this thing back. Like, these guys barely know each other in terms of the cat and Brunson stuff. Like, they just had a cup of coffee with each other and ended up in the conference finals. Yeah.

You know, there's so much to build on from here. You know, I know, like, when it was bad, especially on defense, it's like, oh, is this something you want to try long term? Like, I think you have to at least, you have to be thinking, we're going to do this again. We're going to build on what we did this year. We beat Boston, you know, which was a real dragon for the Knicks. And, you know, at times, like, most of these games were hyper-competitive with Indy. You know, they have to feel like they're right there on the level of Indiana. I just don't think they're going to be dramatic about it.

And then, you know, forget about like the family ties and the La Familia, you know, mobbed up element of the Knicks where it's like, oh, if you're a CIA guy is basically blood in, blood out. So, you know, look what they did to Dante. I mean, we've seen the commercial now 1,000 fucking dimes. We know what could happen. Yeah. I think Dante is just a way lower down on a totem pole than Brunson for obvious.

reasons. So yeah, it's hard for me to see them doing it. And then again, like, even with Bridges, they gave up all this stuff for him. I did that they're going to just be like, ah, you know, let's try to get something different and not just extend the guy. It just seems highly unlikely. Even if they did believe that that was the team's best path forward, you just don't see front offices admit that kind of error that quickly, that, oh, maybe we overpaid for

McHale Bridges, maybe we should have traded for somebody else. You just don't see that very often. But I just, I want to make this like very clear. The Knicks, short of Janus, should not trade Carl Anthony Towns. Like I think he's a really good trade in towns. I think he's a really good Nick who had an amazing run. And yes, create some problems for this team structurally that they didn't have to solve. But like they were not getting his contributions from anywhere else.

Many teams in the league do not get his level of contribution from anyone else. He's an all NBA level player. Yeah, it's just the same old thing with Towns where you're like, you are a certain team. when you decide to get in Carl Anthony Towns business. To the next credit, it seems like they willingly accepted the challenge and brought it out the best in him this year. And so I tend to agree with you guys.

I think with any East team, you ultimately end up in the same place. You look at the landscape and you're like, I'm fine. We pushed the team that's going to the East finals practically every game. Maybe we should have won one or two of those games if one or two bounces go a different way.

We might just make the finals next year if we just stand back. So you're saying they're fine in the East? East. They are fine. They're fine. That's a real thing that, like, with the Celtics being in the condition that they're in and Jason Tatum out for the foreseeable future, if you are as close as the New York Knicks,

do not take a step back. Like push forward in whatever meaningful and small ways you can. I think this is a core worth keeping together. Radical statement to say about a team that almost just made the NBA final. A couple of wins. And as you said, Justin, a couple bounces away from making this a really competitive series. Yeah. The problem is like the Knicks just aren't the conservative types typically.

Like this is the time where they get the itchy trigger finger and they want to do something. And last off season was the prime example of that where they already had bridges. And they're like, let's fucking go. Carl Town is a day before training camp. So that's the thing though. But before last off season, they were really patient and methodical. Right? And then last year's just like OG and O'Donovia.

But Carol Bridges is all right. Carl Tal has just, it just happened like trade deadline, offseason, boom, right before, or right when training camp is starting, whatever it was. Just crazy. They did that, but like that hasn't been their way. I know I bring up Kevin Durant once a week, twice a week for every team that has been ejected from the playoffs at this point. But like, wouldn't the sons want a player like Bridges back, like the new version of

bridges in the fold. Not only does he have the muscle memory to play next the Booker, but you can only be so bad considering their pick situation, right? Durant, at the very least, might round out an offensive first team in New York in that sort of way. And if you're looking at Durant and his mindset, like, you want to go somewhere that's going to be competitive now, but doesn't, isn't overly reliant on you in the way that, like, let's say the Houston Rockets are. And so, like, could he ease into his golden years being, on the other New York team. Unfinished business.

He's back in the boroughs. Let's go. I don't like it. I don't like it either. I know. Obviously, KD. is way better than Mikhail Bridges. Let's get that out the way.

He's a much better player than McHill Bridges is. We're in agreement. He would theoretically be a great fit for what they're trying to do. You can play the three, can play the four, whatever, even play to five sometimes, whatever. temperamentally you, that's what you want to bring into your locker room? Wow.

That's what you want to do? I brought up the Monty Burns has so many personal, like physical ailments that he can't push all of them through the door. Do you guys know this? Simpsons?

No idea. The glaze looks on the audience. Okay. I'm sure like 10 people will get it out there. Send us a clip. Do they all cancel each other out is what I'm saying?

Does Towns is Townsie? Brunson's like kind of just quiet, calm, Durant's own moodiness. So they all kind of cancel each other out. And if anything, there's balance there just because the encore product would just be good. Here's the thing.

I think as far as Kevin Durant's quirks as a personality, and we've talked about them many, many times. Waz has talked extensively about the idea of Kevin Durant as a leader in particular. Jalen Brunson is a great leader of a team. And so that vacuum is sort of already filled by virtue of having him. Absolutely wouldn't have to do that. That said,

I honestly think having KD on the team makes towns less important in a way that then makes towns's weaknesses more apparent and more concerning. Because for one, Kat is great if you want to drive. Kevin Durant doesn't want to drive. He wants to stop at 12 to 18 feet

and pull up and hit and he's so good at it. Turn the corner anymore. It doesn't really turn the corner like that anymore. And so the space that Kat provides might make it a little easier for KD to maneuver in the mid post, but ultimately like, are we going to make KD a 6?

It would be very tibsy to start Josh Hardover Kevin Durand. I'll put it that way. Yeah. And also if we do go with Mitchell Robbins, and if you bring him back in this wild fantasy, like I guess Katie is playing the two a la like the PJ Carlos Lamontes. So I don't really know how I would work either. But that is the level of offensive player that would get me to entertain a Bridges trade.

Sure. Anything short of someone that just makes us lights out offensively that we could go toe to toe with the best team. like that. Yes, but otherwise, I'm holding on to bridges. I'm rolling it back. I'm getting another adult into the back into my roster. Something kind of twisted about the mixed situation is, you know, maybe it took him a little long to fully get there with someone like Delon Wright in

particular in terms of playing him actual rotation minutes, but the Knicks did. And they tried to play Landry Schammett kind of along the way and then here in the, in the playoffs as well and here in the conference finals in particular when he's been healthy. Those guys are both free agents who could just leave. And they are not unimportant. Knicks reserves at this point. And so in addition to trying to make this roster better, those guys who are now favorites in New York,

Landry Schamond in particular, is apparently just like an icon of Nick's lore. Might not be a Nick anymore. I don't know what's going to happen, but they played their way into opportunities, whether it's New York or elsewhere. So in the future, like, Landry Shamondon's going to be sitting in like the Marcus Camby seat court side.

Like, is that what we're saying? Are you telling you, me, Tim Thomas is a dramatically more important Nick than a member of a team that went to the Eastern Conference finals. That's true. I will say, they did do a good job of rounding out their

roster pre-flurry of moves last off season by bringing a little bit more out of guys that had gotten tossed around. Dante DiVincenzo was one of those guys. Obviously, Hartnstein was one of those guys. Mitchell Robinson even found a different level when playing around a more well-constructed roster. And so,

they have done well with veterans and making them into credible rotation players. Maybe that's what they do. Precioushia is an unrestricted free agent. Maybe you trade him at the draft before the calendar year rolls over. You get another guy like that into the mix and then all of a sudden you're cooking. But something I think has to change. And so if it's not the roster, maybe a coaching change would be it. I don't know the obvious candidate.

That's the other problem. Yeah. We gripe a lot about Tibbs. I just don't see like the easy. He's not kidding. He's not. They need, like I said, they need an offensive coordinator of some kind. Somebody with that Tibbs respects, who knows offense.

It sounded like you were nominating Terry Stott's, you know, poach him from the warrior staff, apparently. Bring them in, man. Like, because, again, it's just a matter of Carl Towns played on a different team before New York. Like, they ran stuff. specific to his skill set and needs. You're paying the guy $55 million a year.

Treat him that way. Put the responsibility on the guy, man. And help him. I could be mistaken, but I think it was like five minutes of this game passed before Carl Towns had a single, like, offensive touch. Like, did not touch the ball.

It was 718 to go in the game before Carl Towns touched the rock, bro. That's timestamp Wasney Lambray Checking in insane You're just logging Every play

Bro I remember Because he was like Fow line extended When he caught it I'm like Yo that's the first time Let's do Touch the ball

Yep New York Knicks basketball Bro Why don't we flip Ahead to the finals now So we're gonna do A full blown Finals preview

Podcast Next week In the middle of next week But I want to get Your guys Early Thoughts I think my first early thought when the, the slob knocker of a series between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers

is who gets to claim the heartland? Who gets to be the team from Middle America? That's the upstart scrapping. Oh, it's got to be indie because of the basketball history, the Hoosiers movie, all of that, Lord. They got it. The fact that most of the people in the state think high school and college basketball is better than NBA, like they got to take that Heartland trophy for sure.

sure, for sure. But hey, man, the prairie ain't far behind, y'all. Come on now. I guess stealing a team from another market doesn't necessarily endure you to the fans at home. That's a specific Northwest solidarity right there. That's right. That's true. I forgot about that. What jumps out to you, Rob? I think I am so fascinated by how these two teams end up playing in chaos. like we just talked about the randomness of Indiana's offense. They're so good at that about playing off of ideas, off of concepts, off of screens in ways that are not necessarily scripted. Oklahoma City is, I would say, particularly good at disrupting the stuff that they anticipate,

right? Like they know where Nicola Yokic wants to get the ball. They know where Julius Randall wants to set up and turn his shoulder and they can jump those things. If you take away some of the predictable stuff and you make them play a very dynamic, very unpredictable game with all these like random like drive by ghost screens with all the side to side action does it negate any of the best defense in the NBA this season does it negate any of all of the disruptive turnover hunting my guess is no because Oklahoma City is good at creating and thriving

in that sort of chaos too but that's the sort of tension point like this was the first game in the conference finals that Tyreys Halliburton had four turnovers it's mostly kept his turnovers way way down overall the team has kept their turnovers way way down the Thunder are going to press that pretty hard and are going to see exactly what Indiana's precision is made of. For me, it's the foul fest. Is Nemhard going to be allowed to guard SGA

the way he was doing Jalen Brunson today? Good question. Is Neesmith going to be able to put it, get handy with J-dub, the way that he's been doing all series with the Knicks? And, you know, like, if not, are they going to do this, give Blue Dord and Caruso the same treatment on the other end?

That's something I'm definitely watching out for. And I think Indy's ball movement is going to have to be key here because Oklahoma City seems to be the only team I've seen in a minute that gets to, like, have their kick and eat at two on defense where it's like they seem to stick their foot in the paint, but yet always make it back out the shooters. And, you know, they're jumping passing lanes. One thing I didn't see one time in the Denver series

and you see one time in Minnesota, Can somebody take these dudes back door? It's like, how is the back door never freaking open against these kids? So I think if anybody's going to be able to exploit these guys with the pass and the overaggressiveness, you know, I actually think about the Miami Heat and the the heatles and the crazy defense

that they used to play, which was like ultra-aggressive flying around and how the Spurs just manipulated that defense and turned that athletic strength and aggressiveness into, ultimately a weakness that they exploited with that beautiful game Spurs stuff. I wonder if Indy can pull off the same kind of trick with their ball movement against OKC. But yeah, those are the foul situation because my God, like Nemhard, Niesmith, Dorit, Dorit, and Caruso, boy.

Simple assault, bro, like with these guys be doing. So that's the stuff that I'll be looking out for. Yeah, I think the pace is also something. that is going to have to be tracked here because on the one hand, the Thunder also play at a high pace. They want to rip and run. And I believe they ended up with a higher pace, both in the post season and in the regular season than the Pacers did.

And so they're out there running wind sprints in the summer up the sand dunes probably right alongside Pascal Seacom. The other thing, though, is that like the Pacer's pace is just so unique. At this point, their ability to get down court after makes, after misses, practically everything. It's just like it, I think you can't stop it to a certain point. It's not only that the Knicks were a little bit sluggish, a little less deep than them. It just seems like an advantage that's going to carry. And so can the Thunder's own pace counterbalance that?

Or at a certain point, is this just going to ultimately be kind of a Trump card? Because that I do think is going to have to happen in order for them to knock off the Thunder who are playing at a different level. The defense has been awesome their entire postseason. But now, like, optimized Chet, J-Dose. She is just like a whole other beast. It's going to be really tough. I think for the Pacers to play every bit of the way that they want to play.

But yeah, you're right, Justin, like that full court game in terms of Indiana's outlets. I can imagine in my mind's eye, Alex Caruso and Lou Dort selling out like free safeties for those passes. Right? Like they managed to get back and just like get a hand on one of those in a way that then triggers a fast break going the other way. But if that passes on the money, if it's a little higher or a little tighter, then all of a sudden you're circumventing all of the same. defensive trouble that we anticipate that the Thunder would give teams. But yeah, like the collective ability of Tyrese's

playmaking, Pascal Seaccom's versatility, and Rick Carlis' preparation, that's a pretty good trio if you're going to try to take a crack at the best defense we've seen in a recent memory. Yeah, we talked all about the Pacers' depth. Like, let's just wait until we see the Thunder's depth, when all of a sudden, like, in game four,

Brandon Carlson's out there for two minutes. You're like, what? Why is this guy playing? Like, oh, we just, we just liked his hustle in his middle part. We just thought he was going to be effective in this one. So we'll see. All right. Why we wrap it there? Because we're going to come back on Wednesday to do a full-blown, variable style preview of the NBA finals. Got the Diddy lined up. Got variations of the Diddy lined up. So stay tuned for that. So we'll do that on Wednesday. And then Thursday, something special. We're going to be live in Los Angeles in the studio at Spotify to do a live reaction show off of Game 1 of the NBA Finlay. finals. So stay tuned for that. You can email Rob for details if you want. So Wednesday, Thursday next week, and then I'll go from there. But that's it for tonight. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely.

Thank you to Ben Cruz. Talk to you next time.