The Ringer NBA Show - The Improbable Pacers Snuff Out the Battered Knicks. Plus, What’s Phase 2 in OKC? | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos talk about the Pacers' historic shooting performance in their Game 7 win over the Knicks to advance to the Eastern Conference finals. They discuss the toll of the Knicks' injuries and the Pacers' efficiency on offense and give an early preview of the Pacers' matchup against the Celtics in the Eastern Conference finals. They move on to discuss how the Mavericks closed out their series against the Thunder. They discuss how Luka and Kyrie play so well off each other, the impressive play of Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, and what the Thunder should do this offseason (34:40). Buy tickets for the live show in Los Angeles here! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Tucker Tashijan Social: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sure, the weather is getting warmer and you're probably planning your next vacation with your family, but what better way to avoid your family on that vacation than listening to three dudes argue about quarterback tears if you can trust a wide receiver over 30 years old, and if Jim Harbaugh still thinks chickens are nervous birds. Join me, Craig Horlebeck, along with Danny Hyfitts and Danny Kelly every week on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. Welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney, Big Was.

Rob, today we have the two greatest. words in sports potting. Wait, recording. We're just giving the people what they want more or less when they want it. That's right. So we're recording this 3.19 p.m. Pacific time. We are going to cover Game 7 between the Pacers and the Knicks. Also some leftover stuff from Mavs and Thunder on Saturday night.

Not doing wolves versus nuggets, unfortunately. I just want everyone to know that was not my idea. I actually advocated to do so, but we share a feed, you know, so we had to give something for the real ones on Monday. Yeah. Well, Justin, do you want to take a stab at what happens in that game? I do not. Okay.

I will root for the wolves and pretend nothing happened if the nuggets win. And if the wolves win, I will take a victory lot. That's what you could have expected. Burn the tape, Zay. Burn that tape. Yeah. Isaiah, can you just actually splice this together? so it's just whatever happened.

But we had a lot going on, especially in this game seven. I want to give the Pacers their due, Rob, but I almost feel like we need to start this podcast by giving the Knicks just a send-off, like a 21 ice salute. Because by the end of this, they were down, five rotation players with Jalen Brunson gone. And I'm actually just surprised that nobody died on the court.

I never got that bad. But what a mash unit. Definitely a Viking funeral for them, though. And for these guys to go down swinging, they obviously didn't have enough by the end. As you said, five rotation players out once Brunson broke his hand. OG and Nobie tried to give it a go in this game. It was clear two possessions in. They were going to have to pull the plug on that.

But they gave it all they had. And Josh Hart honestly probably shouldn't have been playing. But he was out there trying to go. And so they went as hard as they could, as long as they could. They ran into wall after wall after wall and threw a lot of them. But ultimately, you got to have healthy players at some point to win these kids. games. And I think obviously, given the Pacers' historic Game 7 shooting, you saw it on defense. You saw a team that was just running on the fumes of fumes by the end of this thing.

Yeah, I mean, T.J. McConnell is having the playoff of his life. But pretty much anytime he was on the court, nobody could stay in front of him. This is a guy who can't shoot, y'all. And they just have no chance of staying in front of this dude, even when they're sagging off of him. That's when I'm just like, look, man, if T.J. McConnell's going to look like, a borderline All-Star in all of his minutes, then this is just not your day. Even as recent as yesterday, I talked to somebody out of Knicksland,

and they were like, yo, Josh Hart could barely walk off the freaking plane after game six. He might not play tomorrow. I was of the impression that he wasn't going to play, and neither was OG. And he played and, you know, he filed out. God bless him. But they gave it everything that they had.

I'm grateful for the memories that the Knicks provided in this postseason with some of the most ridiculous games and finishes in the entire playoffs. But Indiana outplayed them. They were freaking, they were borderline dead in game three. Like, that's how crazy this is. This season was on the brink. Nemhard bobbles, barely catches a ball,

splashes a three from 30 feet away, and now they're in the Eastern Conference finals. Just amazing, man. Credit to the Knicks, because they did kind of counter punch in that third quarter. Third quarter got it down like seven. Yeah, they got it really close.

What were they counter punching against, I guess is the question. And it's a historic first half, a game seven that we almost never see, which is one that was not ragged at all for the Pacers, where they got a lot of the shots that they wanted and put up more points in the first half than any other team ever has in an NBA game seven.

Which is the worst position you want to be against the Pacers. Like the front runningness, I think has taken a lot of, a lot of permutations. And I think Tyrese Halliburton is to blame or to credit for a lot of that. Definitely talks and plays differently when they're up. But they were up by a lot.

So 39 first quarter points, according to Zach Cram, most ever in a game seven. Best shooting half in a playoff game in the last 25 years, 76% in the first half. Brunson had as many misses as the Pacers as a team did in the first half. And obviously is Rob alluded to. 67.1% overall in the game, best in a game 7 in history. So not bad for the Pacers. Not bad. And a team that's this young too, right? This is the first playoff run for Tyrese Halliburton, for Andrew Nemhardt, for Isaiah Jackson, who if he played for any other team would be a folk hero like many of these Knicks guys are, right? A game-changing energy player who the Pacers absolutely

needed. And the contributions that they got across the board, and like, was, I want to issue one correction. You need to be more respectful to T.J. McConnell who can shoot within 12 feet. And within 12 feet, he is 100% and I will never hear an argument to the contrary. But really for the Pacers to play this well and to respond

in this way, in this moment, is a hell of a thing. This was just obscene levels of offense from a team that I think a lot of people didn't even expect to be here. And maybe there's some power in the we're not even supposed to be here kind of energy. I want to give some props to Rick Carlisle too, because the purpose with

which they played on offense. One, you know, OG comes out, obviously cannot walk. That lasts, like, all of three minutes. He had his little Willis Reed moment, excuse me, and it was just obvious. It wasn't working. Then Tibbs is like, all right, we're going to put Hartenstein on Siakum,

which left, you know, a much smaller guy on Miles Turner. And, like, they just knew exactly where they wanted to attack. And I think the Knicks never really caught up with, like, what Halliburton wanted to do. Like, Halliburton is basically turned himself into like a Reggie Miller movement shooter, but sprinkles in a driving kick as well. Like, once he catches it,

he's looking to just fire that thing. And I don't think the Knicks really responded until late where you saw them get a few deflections, turned them over when he, you know, he got deep into the paint and still tried to pass it. But the Pacers were so locked in on how to attack the Knicks today. They were just very well prepared. man and it showed.

Yeah, Justin, I know we've had a lot of questions about Tyrese Halliburton finding his moments and being aggressive in some of these games. I thought there was that one shot towards the very end of the first quarter where he sprinted cross court to basically take the ball out of T.J. McConnell's hands and immediately fire up a three. It's like that guy understands what the assignment is today. I think Halliburton tends to be different when a couple deep shots go in, especially from the jump.

He just tends to have a certain momentum. and confidence in his game after he hits a few deep balls. And I think he was like four for five or something like that. He hit the first couple of them. And then things just kind of snowballed for theirs. Yakum got him started, Halliburton fouled suit. And really, that was the game. And like, obviously the Knicks came back and the Pacers pushed forward at the end there.

But it's just like the team just plays differently when they're up early. And things just like, like they move better. The ball moves better. And the players just play with just more zest and zip. is what we were used to in the regular season. Yeah, but I thought they did respond to those inevitable Nick runs better than we've seen at earlier points in this series. And look, what an education this has been for the Pacers in these playoffs. For Halliburton learning what kind of score he needs to be in games like this,

the kind of problem solving they had to do defensively against Jalen Brunson throughout this series. And Aaron Neesmith really stepping to the four in that regard. And to that matter, like just figuring out which role players were ready for this. Neesmith and Nemhart and T.J. McConnell and Jackson, those guys all came up huge. And to start the regular season, T.J. McConnell was not in the rotation. Throughout the season, Isaiah Jackson was not in the regular rotation. These are guys who emerged over the course of the year and in these playoffs

and have a lot of staying power with their effort and their energy and just their savvy in these games. Yeah. Like I said, not only were they well prepared, but the pace was with which they play. right um they didn't fall into the trap of all right the nicks are trying to muddy this thing up sloppy this thing up see how come was catching it off of misses just attacking his guy getting a shot up within like five seconds of the shot clock um ticking off like they played with so much purpose today that you got to tip your cap to them man like look are they a traditional conference final level team i guess the next series will will let us know when they play, obviously, the best team in the East all season, the Boston Celtics.

But today, the game seven, like, because when, and you guys mentioned this, when I think about game sevens, I think about the Cavs and the Warriors in 2016 for the championship, where it was just such a slop fest, like six minutes of both teams barely scoring.

Yeah, period. And today was not that. They played. so loose and free. Like, man, I'm impressed by what they did today. Yeah. I think it's hard to talk through all that without providing the caveat that even the Knicks guys who were out there just didn't have anything.

Like watching Isaiah Hardinstein, who's been such a force in the series on the glass, Miles Turner boxed him the hell out. And you want to give Miles Turner all due credit for that. But also, these guys just had nothing left by the end. Deuce McBride trying to create off the bounds. Yeah, there was a point in that third quarter where they rallied back where I believe the lineup was Brunson pre-handbrake, Josh Hart with his ab issue. Deuce McBride, Alec Burks, and Precious Achua, the latter of whom were spotty in the rotation. Berks didn't play until he absolutely had to, and there was no one left to do that.

And so, like, the Knicks were really down to their last guys. And they did play, I wouldn't say they were quite the Jordan rules in that quarter, but at the very least they were making the Pacers earn it through, play through the physicality, have to go to the line. in order to do so. And so credit to the Pacers for at least meeting that physicality and that toughness that the Knicks had provided throughout this postseason

and responding and kind of just shooting him away. But it was telling that Alec Berks came into this game basically scored at a point-a-minute pace and was really the only guy on New York's roster that was not stuck in mud the entire game.

And it's just because he doesn't have the same attrition and minutes-loading, nagging injury that all these other guys have. DeVincenzo dropped 40. He had a really good game. He was the only person. I want to back it up.

I want to back it up. That had a nice game. Don't disrespect the Italian style. I would never. I would never was. But yeah, nobody had anything, man. And Zay was making jokes before the podcast that Julius Randall is one of the worst playoff players of all time.

It's a great thing for the Knicks that he didn't get any minutes. I think he would have helped. I'm not saying he would have played at like, you know, because in the regular season, since he's been a Nick, he's played at like third team all in. NBA levels. I don't think he would have played at those levels in these playoffs, but I think it would have helped to have somebody who could do something with the ball, man, like who could attack a mismatch, you know, attack a closeout, you know,

just somebody that could create some level of juice that wasn't Brunson. And that's the other half of this, right? It's that the Knicks became a little too predictable in order to guard. Like you just pick Brunson up at half court, if not full court. you send help early and often at the arc and who else is really going to attack you. I mean, a lot of it was DeVincenzo. He's been balling out this entire series and these playoffs and 39 in this game. But it's just like everything became a little too predictable and in a must-win game.

It's just like you just crowd around Brunson, like Presta Cheshua isn't going to be able to give you 20 in order to balance this out. Yeah. So much of that in terms of the predictability of the Knicks feels indicative of where this season ended for them, but not what this team is. The version of them that we've seen before, even as recently as last season, pretty cute year for them, like a nice step forward,

but ultimately it felt flawed and compromised in a way that was not going to go anywhere meaningful. And at least it did to me. You can't say that anymore. This is very different, and it's very different in a couple of different ways. I think fundamentally,

if they had all their guys by the end, they do have some of that secondary creation. You are kicking, and getting OG driving hard against the set defense. You are getting, you know, obviously more from Randall for better or worse. And we can certainly debate that and argue that as to what his future with the team is, but a more dynamic version of the Knicks. And even if you're just getting extra possessions from Mitchell Robinson,

that's a huge deal in a series like this. So when I think about what this Knicks team is now, I think they've reset expectations clearly. They've redefined themselves. They're also one of those teams that by pluck and personality and the chaos. of the games that they've been in. I'm going to remember this Knicks team for a long time. I think a lot of people are going to have a very fond association with this group of players

and what they were able to accomplish despite all of this bullshit we're talking about. So when they traded for OG and they rattled off all of these wins and they looked amazing and Randall went down and it didn't matter and they just looked incredible. I was somebody who was like, this is a nice regular season phenomenon, but like, come on. This is not going to translate this way. in the postseason, and I was wrong, man. Like, they look like a legitimate team. Okay.

Again, I would have loved to have seen all of their guys be healthy. And to Tibbs' credit, he didn't start doing the crazy rotation stuff till a bunch of guys started going down in January. Before January, he was playing guys. He was playing his bench? Yeah. He was playing guys. He had a normal minutes distribution.

Once guys started going down, then we started. to see in the crazy, you know, 45, 48 minute games by, you know, his most trusted guys. But I agree with Rob wholeheartedly, man. I think this is a legitimate team, and they should be proud of what they did this year. OG hit the two shots that he was given in the five minutes that he played,

just to show you, like, what would be different if they even had him. He had a game of his life, the game he got injured. And so, yeah, I just love the idea, though, Rob, of you telling Rob Jr. about this team in a few years from now. It's like, remember the time or Josh Hart

played 53 minutes. They just don't make them like that anymore. Let me tell you about the time Dante DiVincenzo stepped up to Miles Turner and called him a bitch. Let me tell you all about it.

I want to say, Miles Turner, great game, great series. Miles Turner, definitely not a bitch. Not a bitch. Not a bitch. We should talk about

the Pacers here because in the big picture, I think, was hit it, like one of the most improbable conference finalists in recent history. I was actually struggling to come up with the list. These are the three teams that I wrote down, the 2021 Hawks, which was a COVID year and they were the five.

I think that's the only comp, honestly. But the other two, I want to mention, 2019, the Trailblazers making to the conference finals. They were actually a three seed, which I don't remember. I think the West just happened to be the Warriors and then everybody else. At that point, they themselves, I think, they beat the nuggets in game seven in the second round series, I believe. Yeah. But that was a surprise. And then the Grizzlies in 2015, they were also a five seed.

I think they, is that the year they beat the Spurs in the first round? No, I think it was a different year. But another team clearly coming from the bottom half of the bracket in order to get to the conference finals. But that's kind of it. Like a lot of the East had been top seats everywhere. A lot of teams, like LeBron dispatched a lot of different teams. But those were typically the number one seed that had an awesome regular season that the Cavs just kind of just took out when it mattered. This is the complete opposite where the Celtics are now facing a sixth seed in the

Pacers Robb, where I didn't think they would even get this far as recently as last week, let alone the start of the playoffs. Well, like any team that makes a deep run, they've needed some breaks. They needed some things to swing their way. Literal breaks. Literal breaks in some cases, but also like some matchup advantages that they could work, some angles that they could exploit for a team that is still growing and it's still evolving and it's still figuring out even how to do this postseason stuff to begin with. And so this is really an ideal training wheel scenario for them

where they are going as fast as they can through kind of the progression of what a team can be, a young team on the ascent. But yeah, there are limitations ultimately to what they can do. And I suspect, as I'm sure many of us do, that they're going to be in for a bit of a reality check with the Celtics, a team that is dramatically more talented,

that doesn't give you anywhere to hide. And especially if Chris Epsborzingis ends up playing in that series as it's reported he's expected to at this point. He was riding a bike yesterday. So get excited. That that is something. And look, it's better. It's better than OG was what, in the pool until this game, basically. So we'll take anything on land. That is a sign of positive progress for Chris Sopperzingis. But with or without him, the Celtics are a really formidable opponent and one that, as we've seen, doesn't even need to play their best basketball to beat a lot of teams.

So you're not picking the Pacers in that series? I don't, I don't suspect I will, not to Sully, their Game 7 victory, and they should be popping bottles of whatever they like and enjoying this moment, because this is a huge win for a team that needs this kind of thing, right? Like, needs this kind of step forward, whether it was going to be an actual Game 7 win or just kind of like a symbolic metaphorical one. But to get the actual one, I'm sure feels damn nice for them, I'm sure. Shrimp cocktail, just flowing at St. Elmo's tonight. Jeff Teague will come back from wherever he is now to celebrate this one, just like he did.

You won the championship with the books. You have them flying back to Indy to celebrate their conference finals appearance. Yeah. Where else will they go? Yeah. Definitely not in New York. But you heard the clip of Jeff Teague on his podcast, how the Bucks didn't celebrate their title. He just went to play 2K back in Indy afterwards.

Yeah, I saw that clip. Which is pretty good. But no, Wise, let's do the Eastern Conference Finals look at before we look at the next off season. Two best offenses in the NBA. It's a lot of points. But I can't say that I'm feeling great about the Pacer's chances, even if Christops doesn't play in the series. No, they're just so small and frail.

And Boston, their size, being physical is actually going to work for them in this series. And, like, the switchability, like the way they're going to be able to cover that pick and roll with Halliburton, well, they'll just switch a guy onto him and be completely fine with that. The Knicks didn't have enough, you know, like wing defenders. It's like you got Brunson, who we love him. God bless him. It's not as strong. Deuce McBride is barely 5 foot 11.

Like, they just don't have the size to switch that pick and roll the way the Celtics, they're going to have so many options if they want to be hyper-aggressive and pressure put two on the ball, switch it. They're going to be able to give him different looks. that I think he's going to have a really tough time against. And also, like, Tatum and Brown, man, off the dribble. Like, when they get these, you know, Nemhard and T.J. McConnell's and Halliburton's on them. Like, they're going to fry these kids.

Like, it's going to be a great matchup for the Celtics, man. I think they're going to kick these guys' butts, honestly. Well, also the other side of things for Tatum and Brown, which is that's two really tough, really rangy defenders for Pascal Seaccom. And he's not going to have the same like situational matchups that he had toward the end of this, the post O.G. Ananobe era of this Knicks series.

It's going to look very different for him. And as we saw, Indiana's half-court offense relies on Pascal a lot, whether it's creating out of isolation or he was doing a lot of kind of short rolling to the free throw line and just going to work from mid-range. And that stuff is going to be a lot harder

with the way the Celtics switch and just with the personnel that they have. Yeah, so the game one is on Tuesday. So pretty quick turnaround. Meanwhile, the Celtics have just been hanging out for what? At least five, six days at this point. So it's going to be a completely different. They were hanging out during that series.

Especially on defense. That's right. Yeah, I would guess five games for this one. I'll just give the Pacers a courtesy win just to be nice. Absolutely. Gentlemen, sweet. I feel like we have to at least say five, given that this team just dropped the bombs in a game seven.

I think if you say four, and they're going to play really hard. And I think the Pacers will have games and halves where they play well. Like, I don't think it's going to be like they lose by 30 every single game. I just think Boston has a just beautiful matchup against them. That's true. So the Knicks, on the other hand, go off into the offseason. Pretty complicated and interesting offseason in New York because you clearly have something going right now.

Knicks fans are absolutely in love. I feel like I see something every day about how we went through 20 years of yada, yada, yada. just to get to this point. We have to appreciate it. And so there's a real love fest going on, a real bing bong all over the place. But there's a lot of decisions, and then there's a big decision

about how much you want to push ahead and kind of disrupt the flow of this nice, meticulous culture that they built here. I honestly think, so OG we could talk about, yet does a player option, you assume they'll bring them back.

That's a big conversation. But I think the biggest thing on the board was is Hartenstein, who's under- Would I love to be his agent right now. Oh, my God. Oh my God. Like, if I'm the pistons, for instance, and I just want to bring my young guys around,

I'm not just like going to throw like a huge offer at this guy just to like support my defense to give me a freaking defense just for a change because you also have Mitchell Robinson that you're paying and he's hurt. So he might be tough to move. So if you want to bring back the dual big scenario, I think it's going to be pretty costly. So we all agree Hartstein is a starting level NBA center. Totally. That's about $22, $25 million a year, guys. That's what that cost. So is this guy going to get $100 million this offseason?

He might. It's crazy. He might. I mean, that's like Jared Allen money that Busevich makes thereabouts. I think it's closer to like $15 million. But like, if you need a center, it's going to cost. You need anything in free agency. It's going to cost.

But let's put a fine point on this with Isaiah Hardenstein, which is you can't. cannot afford to lose him if you're the Knicks. Mitchell Robinson, always hurt. Always hurt. Whatever you may believe of him and the strengths of his game, and there are many, and I love Mitchell Robinson.

He's not available enough. And even when he is available, he fouls a lot. And he puts you in some vulnerable positions from that perspective. Isaiah Hardenstein, really good rebounder, really good playmaker in ways that you need, really good defender, clearly. He's giving you like a higher baseline level of performance than Mitch, who can be very productive,

but pretty erratic. Totally. And I think that goes hand in hand with some of the other decisions they have to make. Obviously, OJew, we mentioned pressures or Chua. Oh, G, he's probably going to get, I would say, like, about 160, 170. And so that would mean like $280 million in deals this summer. Just amazing. I couldn't have foreseen this coming into this season that Hartenstein would make himself this indispensable.

but like here we are. Well, and whatever decision there was to be made about OG and Obie has already been made, I suspect. It has, unfortunately, though, they might be pot committed to a amount that might not live up to the amount of games played or like the amount per game played that they would like to because since his rookie season, OG has not played more than 70 games in a season.

He played 50 in this one obviously got hurt down the stretch. And the playoffs, like, this is kind of the OG experience and kind of what WarRod is welcome in Toronto to a certain degree as well. And so I think it was great when he's out there and they look like a completely different team. They looked like an Eastern Conference finalist team when everyone was healthy. But if he's not going to be out there, it's a completely different scenario. Also missed in a way that has been kind of memory holds the entirety of the Raptors 2019 finals run. Although I think in his defense, I believe he had appendicitis or something crazy.

It wasn't even like a body injury in the traditional basketball sense. Right. So they're in a situation wise where it's like it's going to cost a lot to retain to bring everything back. But then there's that side conversation where it's like, should we be playing for stars at this point? So it's like this dual track that kind of intersects but also conflicts at the same time. So with OG like his skill set is so in demand, meaning huge wing elite defense can make an open three pointer. Every now and again dribbles the ball. Like, every real team needs that, right?

So to me, that's not a deal. I'm scared of paying in $32, $33 million a year. I'm not really worried about that. I don't lose any sleep whatsoever. The TV money's coming in. Like, it's going to be fine. Hartstein is just, man, I don't, like, damn. Like, do you think that's an immediately movable deal after that?

You know, like, I don't know, you know. Like, that's what, like, scares me if, like, something really exciting comes up. It's like, can Hartenstein be put into a deal? Like, is his deal more or less desirable than what Randall's on right now? Right? Like, these are the questions that I have. But I think running this back, hoping that you have a healthier version of this, is plenty exciting.

And Nick fans should absolutely be rooting for it to happen. Definitely. And there are deals you make with the anticipation of moving them. You signed DeAngelo Russell to his contract thinking maybe we'll end up moving it. look how well that turned out. Right. Well, but at least you could see the intention up front. There are also deals you make because you can't afford to not make them.

And I think that's where the Knicks are. If they were to just let Isaiah Hardinstein go for strictly monetary reasons after this kind of run, I think they'd be doing everyone involved the disservice, the players on the Knicks first in line. He would be devil's advocate. I agree with what you guys are saying, but just to give the counter opinion, the East could be fearsome next year. So we got the bucks with an offseason together. Obviously, the Sixers are going to do something.

The magic might add to that core. All of a sudden, it might be like the bar has moved, where it's like to get to second, you have to clear four or five teams as opposed to right now where it was wide open. So do you need to go and make a swing of it? Or do we feel comfortable with this team plus Randall? Because clearly they needed just any extra juice, any second creator, or any sort of offensive guy to plug in there next to Brunson. I actually might lean the prudent conservative route and figure it out later.

But, you know, it is going to be a different battlefield. Also, why not both? Why not play the prudent conservative route? And then if you need to assemble a trade down the line, you do it using Randall and using some of the other assets that the team has in its coffers. That seems perfectly reasonable and plausible to me. It'd be tough to do both simultaneously, if only because then you're using the money from those deals, the guys you brought back.

Let's say if you wanted to do this in the off season as opposed to waiting at the deadline, then you'd have to cut into Nova Nix. Then it's like, oh, do we have to actually give up DeVincenzo or Hart, who might be the most popular Nick outside of Brunson since like, I don't even know, Walt Frazier.

It's just like it's a bit of a janga there. But again, I agree with you. I think this is pretty awesome right now. Yeah, and again, if somebody genuinely exciting comes onto the market, you're not going to cry about getting rid of DiVincenzo or heart. He's Italian. I know. You told us. I know.

In New York City, that matters a lot, a great deal. But it's like, that's the beauty of assembling a team like this. So many contributors so that, again, when the right thing comes up, when teams are like, yeah, we want. 20 different draft picks and blah, blah, it's like, yo, you can either get the draft picks or you can have some of these nice role players, but you ain't getting both. Like, and so now when they do,

if they do, make a deal for somebody who, again, is legitimately exciting. The cupboard won't be bare when they get over there. It's going to be like a dope team, you know? So I just think they're in a great position. Like, I was, look, man, I was really skeptical of that Leon Rose World Wide West,

blah, blah, la familiar. Oh, we keep everything in house. It's very incestuous and all of this shit. And, you know, Leon Rose was at Jalen Brunson's birth and all it. I was very skeptical of all of that rhetoric coming out of that hiring. I was like, oh, man, all right.

They let in CAA have the run of the place. Let's see how it goes. I'll be damned if these dudes haven't been the most patient, smart executives in the league in that run, man. Like they've played this so beautifully. I mean,

the Brunson deal, forget about it, bro. You know, so like, I got to give it up to that front office. Well, to your point about just having guys in reserve, I kept thinking about that, honestly, with T.J's past two games, like clear,

just guy who got cast away as the Sixers Chase stars for the process. where it's just like, this is just like a steady-ass veteran who you can rely on to play seven minutes or 23 minutes. And look what he did the past two games, 12 and 7 tonight plus 21 and 23 minutes. Like, I don't think like teams are going to completely divert their star chasing desires in order to bring on a T.J. McConnell. But in a game like this and a series like this, I do think those sorts of things on the margins do matter more. And so nice to have a T.J. McConnell just ready and willing to just like fight people almost. Yeah, they're not going to divert chasing stars,

but what this series presupposes, Justin, is maybe they should. Maybe they should be prioritizing T.J. McConnell. The sequence in the third quarter, I think it was like midway through the third quarter, the Knicks called the timeout, came back in, inbounding the ball, and got a five-second violation because T.J. McConnell and Aaron Neesmith

and these guys were just hounding everybody on the floor. I don't think I've ever seen that before. Five-second coming out of a timeout? Time-out. That's when the game was over. It really was. spiritually it certainly was. Fatigue, I think definitely played a factor.

With T.J. McConnell, do you think New Yorkers are going to come out of this series with the begrudging respect for T.J. McConnell? Or is he not allowed to enter the city for the rest of his life? A lot of respect for T.J. McConnell, I believe that Halliburton, however, has probably supplanted Trey Young as the most hated opponent right now in the NBA, because he was just hamming it up. Oh, my Lord. He did Reggie Groud out there.

I can't wait for these games next year. Like, I'm looking forward to these Pacer and Nick games next year because of the play. And that's the beauty of the playoffs, right? Like actual stakes. These teams play each other seven times in two weeks. So obviously the familiarity breeds a lot of contempt. And Halliburton, boy, was he loving that contempt, boy. And so, yeah, man.

McConnell, I think, has earned people's respect. Halliburton has earned people's ire. Spike was dapp. up, TJ, as they walked off the court. So that's quite a cosine. Halliburn on the other hand. Yeah, he's definitely got some, some towns in him, I would say, unfortunately. Wow.

Not the good one, but we won't ruin his moment. We'll talk about that in the East finals. With Fandold's never too late to get in on the action, this NBA playoffs, because right now new customers get 150 bucks in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet. That's $150 to use on C&L. game parles, live bets, championship futures, exclusive markets, and so much more. So let's look ahead to the Eastern Conference finals. We got the Celtics and now the Pacers on Tuesday, game one.

So I'm going to go with the Celtics, obviously. I think they're probably a shoeing to win this one, even without Christop's Porzengis. I'm going to go Celtics 4 to 1 in the series. That's plus 170. Not great odds, but honestly, I can't see anybody else but the Celtics coming out of this one. So give me Celtics 4-1 plus 170. And with Fandul, there's no. better place to bet all the playoff action than America's number one sportsbook.

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See terms at sportsbook. fandal.com. Let's move along to Saturday nights game. The Mavs, bunched their ticket. Rob's Mavs. Are they? Well, you know, you're local.

He's wearing a Jamal Mashburn jersey into that shirt, y'all. I actually did own one growing up. Full disclosure. Did own the MASH jersey. Who was your favorite Mav of all time, you think? Probably Dirk.

Nick Van Exel, probably. Oh, that's a good one. I thought we were going to say Michael Finley. I mean, I did love Michael Finley. Huge soft spot for Marquis Daniel. Shout out to Markees Daniels wherever you are. You know, you got to have your guys. Those were my guys.

I just remember Josh Howard dissing Obama in the offseason. That was my favorite math moment. It was the national anthem. Oh, it was the anthem. I thought it was Obama. No. Josh Howard was ahead of it. He was ahead of his time.

You're saying I'm not supporting this. So I feel like this series. ended in a very strange way, but maybe in an apropos way, where these games were closer than anything we've seen in the Nuggets and Wolf series, despite all the attention that series has gotten, definitely not from this podcast. But it comes down to a foul in the corner by Shea, the veteran on the team, and yet this team is very young, which is why he's a veteran, and Luca complaining before the shot even gets up, I thought was pretty notable. But PJ Washington being the one to do that as well.

It just felt like a very stark apropos moment there. But ultimately, Rob, I just think like the Mavs made all those little plays that a young team typically does not. They did have a lot of that. I mean, Loco was in Take No Prisoners mode. And I thought, you know, OKC did some smart things. I thought the way they targeted the Dallas Biggs and brought them out and took away some of that interior defense. I thought that was smart game planning, smart execution. Obviously, a guy of Shay's caliber can succeed doing that.

but what you're getting on the high end from Dallas in terms of the star level creation and in the mid range from Dallas I say mid range in terms of talent in terms of their role players stepping up in exactly those moments PJ Washington delivering two huge free throws so that he can intentionally miss the third

and drain the clock that's all you can expect from a role player in that moment to say nothing of Derek Jones Jr. Ballin out to close this series and really putting a huge stamp on it in a way where Dallas is able to consolidate its rotation.

Tim Hardaway, Jr., you're not really playing very much for us anymore. Derek Jones, Jr., you're going to go to the limit. You're going to play great defense throughout. You're going to hit corner threes. You're going to be a slasher for us. I just think they pulled all the right levers in terms of who should be playing when and how. Yeah, but what stuck out to me is just the new guys, man. PJ, the contributions from the Rook, lively, who was just battering and bruising guys.

on the offensive boards. Like, just, he was just a monster. He played so big, man, in this game six. Obviously, Gafford, PJ Washington. Like, the new guys contributing so much, it just validated everything this front office did, which, you know, again, in the moment, people weren't like, wow, home run.

These guys are so smart. People's like, yo, if this shit don't work, You guys are alienating Luca Donchich and you're going to have to move this guy at some point or he's just going to leave your asses in free agency the first chance that he gets. And man, they took a risk and it's worked out the shameless tanking

that they did last year to keep the pick in the first place. Right? Like, all of this stuff working out the way that it did in this series was just amazing to me. Like, that's what stuck out to me. The people who were contributing on the margins.

And then Kyrie Irving, in the second half, this man took 18 shots. He was like, bro, we got to win this game. Like, I can't say enough about the non-Luca Mavs in this, man. Like, they really earned their keep in that game. And I thought they needed that from Kyrie, too. His contributions in this series overall, I would say, were subtler than I would like. Not the normal Kyrie stuff. Yeah.

Not the normal Kyrie stuff. I wouldn't even say limited. Like, he's still incredibly important. structurally to the way they try to create. And having him on the floor alone takes pressure off of Luca in ways that past Mavs teams did not have. So I don't want to say that what he was doing wasn't important, but it was the kind of like lower key nuance

you really have to be watching and paying attention to see what he's doing on the floor versus he's coming up with a game winning shot in a game seven, which is what we're accustomed to from Kyrie, huge clutch moments, incredible explosive scoring. And I thought this, just by volume alone, edged him a little closer to that version of Kyrie. They use him like he's their Eric Gagne, you know?

Like he is like a typical Mario Rivera closer. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. It's baseball. So they're saving him until the end. That's right. Have some respect for America's pastime, please. And so on the one hand, it does seem like he does wait until they need him,

which is to Luca's advantage. because that's how he plays it, which is why how the MADs are going to have to play. But it does put him in the precarious position of like being in a spotlight and having to perform in this like one narrow window. And you have games like this, it works out. His overall production was down in this series. But 14 and O in close out games throughout his career, which like, you know, there are a lot of bullshit stats that get thrown around around these times in the playoffs. But like that one I think kind of matters to a large degree. I just think what you're describing in terms of having a narrow spotlight and stepping in and thriving is exactly the guy that Kyrie has been for the majority of his career.

And when you try to make him more than that, say when he was with the Celtics, it doesn't go great. When he's the entire leader of your team, when he's the structure of your offense, when he's the defining point guard, things can get a little weird and wobbly, emotionally and in terms of basketball. But you put him next to someone like Luca. you put him next in one like LeBron, everything clarifies about what his game is, like what his game is and what it's supposed to be. So when they traded for Kyrie, people who were down on the trade,

I wasn't one of them. I'm like, yo, bro, you can't just have an offense with Luca just, every single possession of a playoff game. Like, this guy has to create every shot for himself and others. Like, to me, that just seemed like a bad, um, design of an offense, right? Like, to expect this guy to do everything.

even if he can do it on certain regular season nights. The thought was that, like, Kyrie was a little bit too overqualified to do what was actually needed, which is to kind of spell Luca every now and again, you know, make some open shots, run the point every now and again, and, like, just be what Jalen Brunson was on the team, right? A guy that they wanted to pay Jailen Brunson something like $15 or $17 million a year or whatever to do that. Do you feel me?

And so the idea was like, bro, for the... the role that you need him to play, and he's a limited defender, which you need a bunch of good defenders around Luca, and you're going to pay him his actual market rate, $40 million. Everybody's just like, this seems to be a bad use of resources. But the way that Kyrie has flipped it, one, he's made himself so good off the ball.

Like, his movement is just amazing. You know, certain people, Donovan Mitchell should watch some of his tape on that. Um, that, the defense that he plays, like, obviously he's not like Gary Payton or something like that, but yo, he's efforting like a motherfucker out there and that's amazing. And three, I can't believe I'm saying this. He's leadership guy. This is insane. Like, the young dudes, like, really look to him and he's, like, calming him down and he's

keeping the, like, the temperature at an even kill. And I'm just like, Kyrie is a freaking leader now. What the hell am I watching? it's nuts, man. So I think it's pretty clear that right now, Kyrie is winning the post breakup of the Nets. So in the, what, two years since Hardin, KD, Kyrie broke apart. Kyrie is ahead.

My question for you guys is long term. When this is all said and done, they all retire, who had the best period post-nets of these guys? Do you think it's KD? Do you think it's Kyrie? Wow. Well, KD's just been a much better player than the other two guys. Without a doubt.

individually, the team success isn't there, but I would say that the team success is connected to having KD as your best player. Damn, that's some cold comfort for having just a wildly efficient score and Kevin Durant. Yeah, it's so tough with him to parse what he's doing on an individual level from the effect it has on kind of the ecosystem around him.

And with all, like, they're all flawed in that way. He and Kyrie and James Hardin, they all need a lot of support at this stage, a lot of infrastructure to make the most of their talents. And that's pretty natural for stars as they get older, even superstars, even some all-time great players need that. But look, this is a magical kind of run that the Mavs are on. And I agree that there was a lot of hand-wringing at the time

about the allocation of resources that you were talking about was, as far as is this, you know, the fine line between being overqualified, as you said, and having someone who's redundant. Like, you want overqualified players on your team. You want, in tough moments, Kyrie can step outside that role and be even better than you would hope he could be. What I think the mads have done well,

both in this run and their previous Western Conference Finals run, which we should say, this is now two for Luca in a very short period of time. Pretty good. Pretty good for the Luca Donchich model. What they've been able to do in both cases, they were able to cobble together

an excellent team defense without spending a ton of cap resources on it. It wasn't go out and get Rudy Gobert, which was an off-rumored, like Dallas trade target for a long time. time, it was get PJ Washington. It was get Daniel Gaffert. Remember when Aitem was rumored to go there during the off season?

Yeah. They cycled through some big. But that's the philosophical question when you think about how to build a team and what are we spending on? The thing you spend on is the thing that everyone spends on, which is shot creation. You pay for Kyrie Irving and you make do defensively in terms of effort, in terms of spacing, in terms of everything else, with the best players you can possibly find to fit your model. And I think the MADS have just done a stellar job of that. Well, they also paid to get P.J.

Washington at the deadline. Because if you like that question, you're going to hate this question, which is, if the Thunder had traded for PJ Washington, instead of Dallas, is this series different? Well, I mean, if the Mavs don't have PJ Washington, by definition, it's different. Yeah. But do you think it swings in the thunder's direction at that point? I don't know. But I do think this illuminates something that's very important with the thunder and that we should talk about. A lot of chatter after Derek Lively pulled down every offensive rebound in sight as to whether the thunder are too small, what the shape of their team should be. It's undeniable.

They struggled on the glass in exactly the way that many of us predicted they would struggle on the glass. Coming into the playoffs. Closed with J-Will in this game. That's the thing. The fact that they closed with J-Will at the four playing with Ched is an open acknowledgement of the problems that they were having. And to me speaks to what I think their target should actually.

be and what they're kind of hovering around. And they tried playing Kenrich Williams in this game a little bit more to just get someone who can rebound a little better on the wing. What I want for the Thunder from a team building perspective is a four who can really rebound. I don't want a five who's going to shift Chet to the four. And PJ Washington is kind of that, but also not really. He's tough. He's a good defender.

He's a good shot blocker. Clearly he can shoot the shit out of the ball in a playoff series. But he's not a volume rebounder. And I think they need someone like that. You need your version of Aaron Gordon. I think everyone is starting to realize that that might be. Honestly, yes. And we've talked about this before,

was earlier in the season. Like how much of the fit issues that we see in the NBA is a result of having a offensively driven, talented big, but you need to find the right compliment in the front court from. Like, look what the Nuggets did by getting like a defender who is mobile can shoot some, but also isn't like a shoot.

by Trache could put it on the deck a little bit. Like it feels like at the very least, Washington clearly isn't Gordon level, but he fits that mold of what I think a lot of teams need in that position. Yeah, I mean, look, right now at Chet's age, again, he can't be the one-man rebound vacuum machine. It's just been born out in the playoffs. We kind of knew it was going to happen, like Rob said,

but it's been born out. But yeah, like, but even if it's not, even if it's not the power forward, whatever the hell's position Josh Art plays, right? It's got to be an effort by the group, by the collective, because you're big is just not a board eraser. He just isn't. Obviously, he's contributing in many other ways,

but he's not in that respect. So wherever you get it, you have to get guys who rebound better than average at their position in order to supplement what chat does. Yeah. Going out and getting a, like, I don't know, know, some big plotting, big man to just gum up the works offensively, I don't believe is the answer at all.

No. So I think the Lori marketing thing was so interesting. And I wonder if you revisit that again. I don't know where the jazz are headed in this kind of next phase of their process. But like, it just feels like they need some heft, but not so much that it diverts them from what they do well, which is like attack and isolation off of the perimeter. And like, I think the other thing that he would fill is probably the other source spot in this series, which is three point shooting, which was a huge issue, especially down the stretch.

OKC shot 33.5% in total. Lou Dort, 31.7 on 6.8 attempts. That is a team high. I also wonder if that allows you to still have Dorr because otherwise, I almost wonder if they've aged past the point where, like, they can rely on Dorr as their defensive dynamo because he takes so much away offensively. He has those games like we saw in the first round where he hits seven or eight threes and you're like, holy shit, Ludo.

But unfortunately, he always has these games where it's just like, oh, fuck, Ludo airballed it again for a third time. So, like, I think they're a little, they're hand in hand there. I think we're zeroing on on the right version of the question, though, which is not should they have gotten P.J. Washington? It's could they have gotten Laueri marketing? Could they have gotten in on OG and Ninobe? It's how do you get a high level player at that four spot? Not a role player like PJ's been very good. but whose limitations are part of the reason he was available in the first place.

They do need something there, as evidenced by the fact that they just yanked Josh Gidey out of the lineup. But their rebounding issues to me were less about not having a PJ Washington type player and more, oh, we have to play Isaiah Joe a ton of minutes now. Oh, we're playing undersized in a way that requires J-dub to be one of the most important rebounders on the floor in addition to being one of the most important offensive players on the floor. And maybe he just wasn't quite up to that in this series. And that's okay given where he is, but it just show you what you need. Yeah.

And to be honest, you know, especially as a GM, we know these guys love the comfort of, oh, we got time. Like doing that move at the deadline would have been an acceleration of time, which we know GMs hate. They don't like being on the clock. I was just like, yo, all right, it's time to start winning for real this time. Like, of course they were willing to go out, do what they did in the play. playoffs this year. And they can take a sober look at what they need to do this off season. And, you know, the Lowry point is a nice one because I think it's a

perfect marriage between a team with a bunch of draft picks and the only person that fetishizes draft picks more than Presti is Danny Age. So I think that's a match made in heaven for a Lauri deal. So the Thunder have 33 future draft picks. I think in addition to the three first round picks they have in this upcoming draft number 12, number 13, number 20, 13 firsts, 20 seconds, and four firsts around pick swaps. And on top of that, they have 33 million in projected cap space, in part because they took a bunch of role players, which honestly might have been at least helpful, at least like give them a look and gave them all into Gordon Hayward, who played 15 minutes in this series, was a minus five. It was nice to have some options. Was not happy about it. We should

say, Gordon Hayward, some quotes coming out about his frustrations from not being given a proper shot in this rotation. I would say there's probably some frustrations for the fact that you refuse to shoot the basketball. Yeah, period. That seems to be the issue. You wouldn't even look at the cup. Like, I've been a Gordon Hayward apologist for years now. And it was, I was excited for this deal because I was like, man, in a complimentary role, like,

he could be a ball mover, a nice connector on offense, make some open threes. He did none of that. And so it's tough, Gordon. I think the results of these games show you. They were begging for somebody to come in and do all the things that Gordon Hayward used to be good at. If you had it, they would have used you, bro. Remember way back when earlier this season where PJ Washington played off of Gordon Hayward? Yep.

What a time. But I think the flip side of this is his contract comes off the books. You do have this cap space. So they have basically whatever they want to do in front of them. It will be up to them to actually step forward. And I think like we talk about this with a lot of teams, but I think they are the clear example of the restrictions of the new CBA where it's like, this team should be making a move to press forward to get that fifth guy to really make a go for it.

I honestly would be surprised if they do it, if only because of the tax implications. I honestly think that this is going to be the type of team that ushers in waves of young guys as opposed to just pay multiple guys max money because they really only have a concise window here before they have to pay Chet and J-dub as much as they're paying Shea. And so I really don't know if the things are going to align where they do make a lorry swing as much as we wanted to.

I have a question though. Everybody on this pod, everybody on the basketball internet loves J-dub. What does bringing in a Lowry do to his own development? Like is the development a priority, right? Like, as good as you are, number one seat in your conference, this close, like, we talk about small margins, slim margins from getting to the conference finals. Are you still a developmental story, right? Or are you just like, yo, screw it. We got to go out and get these wins as soon as possible.

Like, I tend to think they're going to be like, nah, we want to see what kind of player J. Dub can develop into. I don't know that having someone like Lowry specifically. I guess he is like a dude that gets off for the ball and plays off of all this. That's fair. And I think that's the kind of precise alchemy that they have to be careful of is who is going to stop the ball movement that we've worked so hard to create

with all this driving kick action versus who's going to augment it? Who's going to catch it and make something happen with it? Yeah, I don't know if KAD is quite the ball mover that the Thunder are looking for these days. But I want to put all this in context to this is a one point loss. in a series with a margin of victory

or like a differential between the Mads and the Thunder of zero. They were complete balance in this series. 636 to 636. I'm not saying the Thunder couldn't have done more because clearly they have the assets to do more whenever they would like to. But they were right here. This series was there for them

and they very nearly had it. Also, I think it needs to be said Shea Gilgis Alexander was the best. best player in this series. I don't even think it was close. He finished number two in the MVP voting, and he played like it, dude. Like, this guy was dominant.

Sure, I think his seeing the floor, he's got to get better at that. And I think this game, he showed that he was seeing it better, you know, as the series was progressing. I think that's the next level of his game, seeing it better, getting off of it quicker when teams slowed up on him. But, like, that is such a tiny,

nitpick to a dude who was sensational. And I got to say this again, I was at damn there. Every single Clipper home game is rookie year. Everybody, trust me, was excited about him. Nobody thought this was coming. Nobody could see this coming from this kid. So the fact that the Dunder have a legitimate top five, top four kind of dude in their building, man.

And that's been borne out and proven in this playoff run. That's freaking exciting, man. I want to push back a little bit on the idea of She being the best player in this series. Oh, you thought Luca was better than him? I thought Luca was better than him. And I think it kind of ties back to our Kevin Durant conversation a little bit, a little bit. Shea was unbelievable as a score. Average over 30 a game in the series, over 50% shooting.

ISO was killing everybody. But when the thunder would clam up, you could feel that it was a very Shea-specific offense because of the way the Mavs were guarding them and all the switching and he was having to beat guys one on one and it kind of throws out any designs of a larger system or flow or in some cases with these shooters

they just didn't see the ball that often with the actual opportunity to score. I'm not saying Shay wasn't looking to pass. It's just the opportunities weren't quite there for him because of the way he plays and the way he was being guarded. Luca, on the other hand, had some incredible swings up and down

in his actual shooting. But his command of the game, is very different. And it allows him to manufacture and manipulate defenses in ways that I just don't think Shea does yet. And that, to me, was some of the difference in the series

was who is trying to beat a guy one-on-one and score and Shay is great at that versus who is manipulating a defense kind of two and three levels ahead to get Gafford the lob, to find the cross-court feed to PJ Washington. And I think Luke is just a little further along with that stuff.

Yeah, make no mistake. I think Luke is a better player. I don't think that's up for discussion. I just think he's limited. And he's been limited in these playoffs by the knee. For sure. I think that's another thing that I wanted to say, as close as this was, if Luca was feeling like the guy that we saw in those Clippers series,

they smoked his team. Okay. Like that dude who's just completely unstoppable in one-on-one, he just hadn't had that, he just didn't have that level of burst and lift. You could see it in some of the jump. shots like he's not himself right now and that's why I think he deserves even more credit for what he's doing right um I do think if if lucas right like I'm like damn they did they just killed his team if they actually have like a hundred percent Luca but I just again I just wanted

to give Shay his props because totally you know I I don't want to say I was skeptical that he could do this but I was like let's say if he could do some MVP type of plan in this in these playoffs and he did it it was certainly that and salute to Luca too for spending exactly one game not complaining to the officials before going straight back. It was unbelievable. Holy, it's just,

he just gets into this, like, he sees red or something, it just completely takes over. There's, are you guys familiar with the term enat? Which is like a Balkan, a Serbian term or something? Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yes. Yeah, it's in the Jordan Khan podcast that we did last year. You should check us out. It's on the ringer NBA show feed where it's like the guy, There isn't an English translation, but it's basically like the guy is smiling at you, but he also wants to like rip your throat out.

It's that sort of like toughness, confidence combined sort of thing. I always see that with Luca. But just to wrap up the Shea conversation, I think the fact that we're debating whether or not he was doing too much because he wanted to or because he maybe didn't have enough help is probably the next step of any superstar's journey. So just get the Oklahomaan maybe to put out a headline about him and we'll be right back in this way. Mr. Unreliable. If this isn't Mr. Reliable, I don't know what is.

It's true. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? And we'll be back on Wednesday. I guess we'll hit the Wolf's series there. Reminder that I was right about it no matter what. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz.

Thank you to Tucker Tash. We'll see them. Must be 21 plus and 18 plus in D.C. In present in select states, Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash RG in Colorado,

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