The Ringer NBA Show - The Keys to Clippers vs. Nuggets and Celtics vs. Heat and the Future for the Raptors and Rockets | The Mismatch

Episode Date: September 15, 2020

Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor discuss the importance of Kawhi Leonard and Nikola Jokic in Game 7 of the Clippers-Nuggets series (0:43) and what to look for in the Eastern Conference finals between the Celtics and Heat (32:22). They then touch on the future of the Raptors (48:44), the head coach shuffle around the league (61:17), and what might be next for Russell Westbrook (69:19). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken original logger is made with pure malt and their famous Ae yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season all-the-time kind of beer. We got the conference finals coming up, y'all. It's the best time of year and football's happening too. We all sports happening right now. It's the perfect time to enjoy a Heineken while you're watching the playoffs, watching all your favorite sports.

Pick up a pack or have it delivered today and drink responsibly. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Climber, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin. Verno, we got big games tonight. If you want to talk about the most unexpected shows that we have done, this may be right up there

at the very top. And we could go all the way back several weeks, Kev. I think we did a show after game three of the Denver, Utah series, that saw the Nuggets lose 124 to 87. And then they lost again after that. And they looked completely dead to rights. And we're talking about, what are you going to do from here? What happens with Malone?

What happens with Jamal Murray? what happens with Yokic. Their defense is abhorrent. And then they come back and they win that Utah series. And then they look completely dead again against the clippers down three to one. It's just a matter of time. I think we talked about this and I said a zero percent chance. And then honestly, even within the contexts of the game, they're down 19.

They're down 16 and they look completely dead again, even in the middle of these games. And then in the second halves of games five and six, we have just unbelievable shocking collapses by this Clippers team that now is playing in a game seven with, I feel like a tremendous amount of pressure for a game. game seven. It's a veteran-laden team, but a lot of pressure. But I just, I can't even believe we're talking about a Clippers Nuggets game seven. And everything the Nuggets have done over the last three weeks has been remarkable. You really have to give Denver a heck of a lot of the credit here with just, it's a basic thing to say, but the heart that they have shown and the resilience that they have shown in order to get them back into the Utah series. And then again, now against the clippers is really admirable that they've put themselves into this position to have that mental

fortitude to battle back like this and you know the way in which they have gone about it is impressive as well they are just attacking lou williams and montres harrell every single play they did that all down to stretch in game six and the clippers have been unable to find answers to that one of the reasons doc rivers alluded to this i believe yesterday he said you know, we're having fall trouble with Patrick Beverly. I don't think that's an excuse here. Beverly has only had like four fouls in every other game besides him falling out in game six. But, you know, unless he can stay on the floor for extended minutes,

you're going to continue to have more problems with Lou Williams out there. And Montrez-Harrell, as great as he was during the regular season, has been completely off on both ends of the floor in the postseason. and for the Nuggets, they're going to continue to abuse that matchup until the Clippers do something different. And I'm sure we're going to see some wrinkles tonight. The Clippers did try having Kauai and Paul George on Yokich and Murray. And I bet we're going to see a lot more of that.

But the number one thing that keeps coming to mind when it comes to this game seven tonight is last year, Sixers, Raptors, Kauai took 39 shots, 39 shots. that game seven in which he hit the winner at the buzzer. Kauai, in all likelihood, is going to leave it all out there again tonight. And that has to be a good thing for the Clippers when there's been criticism of him not being aggressive enough, aggressive enough, not looking for a shot enough. If you get that, Kauai, 39 shots, probably a good thing for the Clippers that if you're getting that version of him.

Well, and he has been fantastic throughout these playoffs. The numbers are crazy again. but this is the series, Kev, without question, that Yokic has moved into star player in the league to superstar player in the league because this is a monster series of which they were really down. And as of right now, he is averaging 26 points, 12 rebounds, 5 and a half assist and has a 61.5% true shooting percentage. I mean, he is as good as you could have ever imagined him being. And part of the Harold problem is he, like everybody else on that Clippers roster, they have no answer for him. We talked at the beginning of this, Kevin.

It was like, the Nuggets have nothing they can do with Kauai Leonard. And what we have found as, and they still may not, we'll see tonight. But as this series has gone on, it has become incredibly clear that there's nothing. to deal with Nicola Yokic. And honestly, there's not many players in the league. If he's going to shoot threes like this, my buddy John Hollinger did a huge write-up of kind of everything that's happened over the course of the last couple of games for the athletic.

And it was super fascinating. You know, Yokic was not a big three-point shooter throughout the year. You know, there's so many things that are happening. In last series, we saw, Jamal Murray, you know, at one point he's averaging like high 40 point per game stuff. Denver wasn't a very good defensive team this year. They're 15th in the NBA, right? And Nicolaeokic was a 31% three point shooter.

And now he's letting that thing fly and hitting it at a huge clip. And if he does that, if he not only is a willing three point shooter, but also a willing three point shooter that hits him at that, at the kind of percentage he's been hitting them at. I mean, that's an impossible guard. Honestly, it's an impossible. For sure. And we've seen that in this series in which, you know, whether it's Zubots or whether

it's Harold dropping in a pick and roll, it's incredibly difficult to recover in time to stop Yokic from taking that three-point. Or if he's hitting at that rate, it's trouble for your defense. Obviously, that goes without saying for damn sure. I mean, he is making that leap as a star-level pull. player. And with him, it's the type of thing we often talk about him as the best playmaking big in basketball, one of the most talented passers ever in league history. That most talented passer in league history is also averaging 26 points a game, is also averaging over 10 rebounds,

is also playing better defense ever since, really, Utah went up 3-1, Denver's defense has been much better. And this makes him, Clearly, a guy, you know, we talked about this last week, how Kauai steps up in the postseason. What does it mean for you when you compare regular season production to playoff production? We're seeing Yokic do this time and time after time in the postseason. His teams have never lost in less than seven games in a playoff series. They've never lost in six, never lost in five, never lost in four. They've only got game sevens.

And Yokic is the reason why they've been able to propel themselves into those opportunities to advance. He is a special player, man. And it feels like this Denver team, Zach Loh had a line in his article this morning, I thought, really summed it up nicely. It would be Denver would love to win this game seven. The Clippers have to win it. For the Nuggets to be in this position

and possibly advanced to a Western Conference Finals, that in and of itself is an accomplishment for this team that has yet to peak. They are not in their prime years yet. They are all still so very young ways to improve. the Clippers, they are all in. After all the draft picks they gave up to get the trade for Paul George, which a lot, which Quilander needed to sign there, with those guys having only one more season left

in their contract, the 2020-21 season, now's the time, guys. Like, they have to win this. The pressure is on the Clippers. Well, and there's a lot of revisionist history on the Nuggets. And I don't say this to excuse myself. I counted them out, as did many of my peers. But there's a lot of revisionist history. This was not a team that everybody thought so highly of at the end of the season,

including their peers, Kevin. Utah lost on purpose so that they would play them instead of Houston. So, I mean, despite the fact that they were the three seed this year, a team chose to play them rather than to have to play against Houston. And you could say it's matchups or whatever else. That's the truth, though, at the end. And they were up 3-1 on them, and the first game went into overtime. So much of what has happened with them has been shocking.

It was a shocking result with what happened in the Utah series, and then this, the fact that they're even in a game seven at this point. And you were talking about their defense, their defense certainly at times during that Utah series, and at the beginning of this Clipper series, looked abysmal. these last few, though, even if you take the whole six games into context, points per possession, or points per 100 possessions per quarter, first quarter, 123 points per 100 possessions. That's unbelievable.

And in fact, that's about what they averaged last round against Dallas. They were, their offense was out of control great. second quarter 115.4. Pretty good. Third quarter 95. Fourth quarter 104. So like something is happening here because they are coming out blistering as, you know, we know from the 19 and 16 point leads in the last two games.

And then they just crater in the second half of these games, most obviously in the third quarter of these games. And then Denver gets a little bit more. Mojo gets a little confidence, and next thing you know, they flip the game upside down. I don't get that. I don't understand. You know what I mean? Like how you could be that dynamite in the first half and then come out in the second

half and all of a sudden, especially when you've, it's the sixth game, Kev. It's the same team. I understand if it's game two, game one. You've made some kind of huge adjustments and all of a sudden now you're really going to have to figure that out. But when you're in game six and it's still happening, You go in, what the hell happens at halftime in these locker rooms? You know what I mean?

Maybe not a lot. How do we explain it? Maybe not a lot's happening when it needs to happen. It's not as easy as just saying, though, like, oh, they made adjustments at halftime. Like, bro, you don't make adjustments at halftime in game six that takes people by surprise. I mean, they've blown playoff leads for years now. I know. I mean, this isn't a new thing.

You can say, you know, they'd happen on Chris Paul and Blake Griffin. It's happening now with Kauai Leonard and Paul. and Paul George, I mean, we'll see if it happens, but the common thread amongst all these teams that are blowing leads is Doc Rivers. Does it say anything about him and his inability to make adjustments here? I mean, I mentioned earlier they're putting George and Kauai on Murray and Yokic to, you know, try something different, but you're still seeing a lot of Harold out there on the floor. They're getting smoked in his minutes as we discussed on Friday show, or Zububub, I'm not really sure how much you can ask more from him at this stage playing 30 minutes per game. You might be stretching him a bit too much where fatigue becomes a factor.

Do you play somebody like Jamichael Green more at the five? Do you put Morris out there at the five and go a little bit smaller? Is that something you try doing in this game seven tonight or even next round against the Lakers if you're fortunate enough to advance? Because that's what I keep coming back to. For this Clippers team, you can't ask. for more from Zubots, you probably, at least in this series, maybe not next round, minimize Harold a little bit more and just play a little bit more small out there, pressure Yokic when he inevitably goes for his post-ups and live with the results there.

That's what I think you have to do if you're the clippers. And I'm surprised Doc Rivers hasn't gone to that yet with Denver playing as well as they are in those second halves of those stats you mentioned. Well, one of the things is, and this is, I don't know if it's personnel, as much as it is. And obviously, look, Zubach has got to be in there a lot more than Montres Herald.

The numbers with Zubach on the core offensively are outstanding. And surprisingly, defensively, it's the same number with Herald. So the offense gets way worse with Herald and the defense remains the same with Herald. I mean, I think the numbers are 96.9

with Herald on the court this series. A hundred and 19.5 offensive rating was Zubach. on the floor. So, I mean, that is 25 points difference, which is just stunning. So he's got to have more Zubot. The thing is, it's not, I don't think necessarily it's the personnel. It's the way they play. And you heard Doc say the ball, we play beautiful basketball. It's like almost old times first. The ball's moving around. We're getting it to the open shot. And then we start playing one on one. The ball sticks on offense. You know, you're talking maybe. That is personnel,

though. That's that's Lou Williams. That's Montrose Harold. That's, that is personnel based though. They use that same personnel in the first half and they move the ball around though. And then they don't in the second half. They start, they start one pass, two pass. And as soon as they start letting the other team get on her run, now everybody feels like they kind of got to do it themselves. And it's you take a turn. I take a turn. And that'll be fascinating to see what we think about the, you know, you brought up at the very beginning, Kauai leaving it all out. there taking the 40 shots or whatever he took last year in that game that doesn't exactly mean the ball's moving a ton you know what I mean like that means you are just relying on your superstar this night and that has been the big problem at least to hear Doc Rivers it's like we play beautiful basketball and then we don't we just stop moving the ball um and I don't I mean I don't know if it's freezing up I don't know if it's like we'll turn it on when we need to because they clearly have it in them to run the team out.

They looked like they were running them out of the building the last two games. And then they get to the second half. And it's like, what the hell is happening here? And Denver just keeps on plugging away. Like I said earlier, you got to give them a lot of credit, man. They got a lot. They do not give up. And it would have been easy to pack it in when you look, here we go.

Here we go again. They don't give up. But the pressure is absolutely on the Clippers tonight. Granted they have, you know, Doc Rivers and Kawana Leonard with championship experience. That entire team, that entire organization has to be feeling the pressure tonight, which, you know,

makes things especially interesting considering, like I said, how they got here versus where Denver is and their trajectory as a younger team that's on the rise. Do you lean either way with what's going to happen tonight? Oh, Clippers. I mean, look, They're seven and a half point favorites in Vegas.

Do they cover? They're seven and a half point favorites in Vegas for a reason. Yeah, I would think they cover seven. Okay, so you're expecting a pretty, you know, maybe not dominant, but they lead the whole way through or at least they stomp their foot down at the end. Yeah, I think they could win by, I think they could win by double digits. Sure. What needs to happen for Denver to win?

Collapse again. Again, Kevin, this team has been up 19 and 60. typically when you got a good team that's up 19 and 16 they don't lose the game or lose the game going away like they did so i mean the the trend here is they're beating their asses in the first half of these games you know what I mean and so do I believe that the better team can continue it in the second half when they absolutely have to i mean my look they were the better team all year long. And look,

this will be one of the biggest upsets in NBA history if Denver pulls this off. I really believe that. It's certainly, given the context of being down 3-1 to that team, this clipper team was significantly better than them this season. And a favorite, you know, to be in the Western Conference finals.

And so now that it gets to game seven, I understand that it's been a weird way for them to get there. And I have not believe, in the Nuggets the whole time. But now that it gets to this moment, I mean, I thought they were the better team at the beginning. So now it's one game for all the marbles.

I can't, I can't feather them blowing it twice, or three times, I mean. And one thing, you know, for the Nuggets is, you know, I mentioned earlier, they're putting, you know, size on Jamal Murray that is hindering

some of what he was able to do last. round against Utah. This series he's had this, this is just each game, 12 points on 15 shots, 27 on 21 shots, 14 points on 17 shots, 18 points on 15 shots, 26 points on 25 shots, and then last game, 21 points on 13 shots. If Murray hasn't cracked 30 yet, if Murray can have a high efficiency, high scoring games, it means he's having one of those nights we've talked a bunch about throughout the postseason, a hot shooting. night. He's a streaky player. Sometimes it's not about what the defense is actually doing to him. Granted, I would say the clippers having size against him has limited some of his driving. It has

limited some of his ability to get perimeter shots off. But with Murray, if he's able to have, you know, 18 to 22 shots, get 30 plus points, that to me is what you get to look for from the Nuggets tonight with him going off when he hasn't really had a game like that. He's, yet throughout the series and yet they find themselves in a game seven so jemal marie's really the guy that i'm looking for right here to have a big game on the denver side i mentioned kawai earlier i think paul george needs to be better offensively as well you know everything you gave up for him everything that the expectations are from him as a player you got to get more from paul george there's been so much blame including from myself pointed at montres harrell for his struggles pointed at lou williams

for just being absolutely horrific on the defensive end of the floor. And all that's true. But ultimately, it comes down to the stars here. And you've got to have that big night from Kauai, 39 shots last year in Game 7 between Toronto and the Philadelphia 76ers. You've got to get more from Paul George as well. Those guys have to step their game out more than anybody else, because they should be enough.

They should be enough to win the series for the Clippers. but thus far they haven't been. You say Murray, I think like, Yokich would have to have like a 30-point triple double. Like, seriously. He's been, at times he's been the best player on the floor. Like, we could look up at the end and look at his stat line and look at Kauai's stat line and his is the more impressive one,

which is stunning that we're at a game seven and you can look at Yokic in those numbers. What is like, 26, 12, 5 and a half and a 61.5 true shooting percentage. mean really remarkable and the other thing is it's not insane to think that guy could have a 30 point triple double you know what I mean like they haven't had an answer for him but I just think it might take that and I don't know I mean look this was I didn't think that the Denver would be here so I can't very well switch sides now I mean look I thought the clippers were going to be the representative for the west I might want to change that one, but this Denver team,

it's happened twice now. You know, it's happened twice, where Denver has done this and made a lot of analysis on them have to be completely reconsidered. And so if they do it, look, I will tip my cap. I just, I can't believe we're even talking

about a game seven. I'm not letting you ride the fence. You don't think they're going to win, do you? I mean, I would pick the clippers, but I think it's going to be a close game. Close. I would not expect the Clippers to cover tonight. You wouldn't?

Okay. I would not, no. Okay. I just, I look at that and I say, why the hell are they seven and a half point favorites? Why? Typically with gambling, if it looks stupid, it is stupid. You know what I'm saying? Like, if I look at that and I think that's crazy, like these have all been, like,

I think the six games are like decided by like 12 points. Like, why is this seven and a half? to me, that's a, that's a, a trap. You know what I mean? Because the, and that's why I would lean clipper-wise with that seven and a half, because that feels too high. I agree with you. I agree it feels too high.

But that's why Las Vegas puts these lines in there and that's why people lose. Exactly. It's true. All right. You're going to be doing the pod, you know, with Warren Sharp. Oh, I know. Betting extraordinaire and football extraordinaire. I mean, boy, I'm excited for that.

I need his expertise. I know. Oh, my goodness. When are you guys recording that on the Ring or NFL show feed? Well, tell the listeners about that. The first show begins tomorrow, which would be great, especially after. So who's on this show? What's the show with you guys?

Just you and Warren every Wednesday on the Ringer NFL show feed. And you guys are talking about the games ahead for just betting purposes? Both. Or is it just? So also breaking down. the game. Yes, yes. What, like, basically what happened and what mattered from what we watched just over the,

just over the, like, in this case, week one, and then we'll take a look ahead at week two. And he's an absolute machine. He's something else, man. Like, he is a machine, Kevin. He really is. I would love to think, like, there's no, like, real NBA even equivalent to him. Like, I'm telling you that his whole life. Heralob.

I think Heralob. But Heralob now works for a team. Yeah. And he was in really media. Like his whole life, really, like outside of his family, is knowing everything about everything that happens in the NFL. Like I was always, see, it's funny, just on a sidetrack. When it first came to me, I've had Warren on my local show for a long time. And I was one of those guys that, like, bought his book.

It's almost like those old, like, Bill James. stories like I was a Warren Sharp fan before every before Warren blew up right because he was doing stuff that nobody was doing like talking about coaches the way nobody was talking about coaches like do they throw on early downs what is the success rate of throwing on early downs what translates into winning and losing who's a good coach and who's a bad coach honestly because of what and he was he was talking about that stuff using statistical analysis and really they're still not a lot of people doing that. You know why? Because it's

friggin' ridiculous. You got to chart every freaking play. And it's also a skill, it's a skill to be able to have the ability to, you know, have a, it's like we're talking about Denver, the mindset and the effort and the hard to put that into it,

but also just like the technical aspect of whatever programs he's using to be able to have those mastered to spit out whatever type of data that he needs. And also, he's just a straight up smart dude. Well, and the other thing. Smart, period.

Just real quickly, last thing on this. The other thing I love about Warren, which is honestly, no, which is what I loved about you when we did the show. Like, because you're like me. We truly love basketball. Yeah. He really loves football. He loves it.

There's a lot of people that have gotten involved in sports media that don't love sports. They really don't love it. They don't live and die with it. They didn't grow. up a huge fan of somebody where they know that emotion. They think fans are stupid and the way fans react are stupid. And it, I hate comments like that when I see that. Well, they're so condescending.

I mean, I see this. And this is amongst a lot of my peers. They don't really love sports. They do it. It's their job. You know what I'm saying? This guy loves sports. And I always appreciate people, you know, even if I don't agree with them, I know they, like,

they're coming by it honest. They really, they have a passion for this. And it's the same passion I feel, right? Like, I mean, I live in time with my teams. Yeah, and it's the type of thing where, like, I'm sure you get this too. I get so many messages from young people that are like, what, you know, I love sports. I love it like you and Chris do. I love listening to the show.

You know, what can I do is becoming a college freshman? What should I do to set myself up for getting into this industry? And, you know, it's usually like the basic stuff, like, you know, try to write for like SB Nation on a blog or do an internship or whatever. and, you know, it's working harder than everybody else. It's trying to get an in somewhere, whatever type of job it might be behind the scenes with production on the video side or, you know, on the copy desk at like an NBC sports or whatever. Getting a foot in the door is critical, first of all, you know, but like it's also, unfortunately with so many of the jobs that have been lost across industries, but especially, you know, in the media industry for us, it's that's close to home for us. I've received emails from people that have been laid off from other places, like, who do I contact? at the ringer, you know, for a job opportunity.

And it's like, this is something that so many people would love to work in this industry. And like it's the type of thing, like you said, there are a lot of people who don't love it. And I think it's always the most rewarding thing when you see people who love their jobs, who love what they're covering with what they do, have those opportunities and to excel with that. And Warren is somebody who for me really exemplifies that better than anybody. else because he was always doing that innovative stuff like you said and he's continued to work harder and harder and harder and harder and never has become complacent and I'm excited to hear you to hopefully starts yelling at each other on Wednesdays in the NFL show and no way he's too

smart I'm not yelling at him no offense to you but I mean look I know what are you saying about me You and me are too goofy. You know what I mean? Like this guy, this guy like, I love the Friday show with Joe House. He's like, tell us a little bit of what yourself. Like, what do you like besides football? And Warren's like, well, I have my family. I'm just a guy who loves his job and loves football.

And this is, look, when you're telling young people about this stuff, the biggest thing is the passion for it. Would you be setting aside your schedule to watch these games if you didn't have that job? Like I always said, if I was working in a cubicle somewhere, I still am watching that game. You know what I mean? It's what I love to do. And that dude, the other thing is, Warren, like, he would put together that book every year, Warren Sharp's football preview. He didn't make a dime off that thing. I think it cost him money to put that thing together, even when he was selling it.

You know what I mean? That's when you know you really love something. When you're putting together a whole damn textbook and you really ain't making money off the thing. But it got him to where he is now. Let's move on to the other basketball series. Hey, Chris, before we move on, let's hear from today's sponsors.

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Game 7 of the Raptor Celtics. I was almost like sad when it ended. honestly, Kevin, because it's like, is there any chance that we are able to replicate that with any series that we see going forward? Like so much about that, I liked the players involved. I liked the coaches involved. I loved the chess match that was going on. I liked Norman Powell coming off the bench, making big plays.

Grant Williams coming off the bench, making big plays. Like, everything about that series was likable to me. and I didn't feel, and the other thing was, with no grand rooting interest, it wasn't like when that thing was over, I was going to be unhappy with whoever came out of that to face Miami, because I think either of them creates a great series with Miami. And I do think this Boston Miami series, again, it would be shocking if it's a short series.

And I think two good coaches, really good, matchups, especially with the wing guys. You know, you have the less talented dog kind of bulldog guys in some spots for Miami. And then you've got these supernova wings in Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum for Boston. Now that we know that's the matchup and we're going to see those two teams play, what are your overarching thoughts on the way those teams match up? There's potential that we get another one of those series that you just talked about with Toronto, where it was just back and forth, adjustment after adjustment with great performances,

you know, from, you know, guys you might not expect it from coming off the bench. These are two teams in which there's really no weak links on either side. And in terms of like their overall ability as a player, they might have weak links as a specific skill. You're going to see Boston try to attack Hero and Robinson on the defensive end of the floor, but those guys can also go completely off on the offensive end. I thought it was interesting that Brad Stevens said this week that Miami is the closest thing in the league right now to Golden State. And that's because of the amount of cutting you see from the heat. They cut more than anybody else in the league.

That's because of the shooting ability from Duncan Robinson, who is a purely dominant flamethrower level shooter and Tyler Hero is not. far behind him either. Miami is a handful to defend. The key in this series, to me, is going to be with Boston, how disciplined can they be against this Miami offense? They're one of the best and most disciplined defenses in basketball. Does that neutralize Miami's half-court offense? Will they become reliant on Jimmy Butler to be like that end-of-clock shot creator if they're unable to generate shots with their movement? I mean, if you look at the end of their game, against the bucks.

I believe it was the game they lost. There was a play in the final minute in which they essentially ran triangle with Bamatabio, Tyler Hero and Duncan Robinson. Tyler Hero hit a big three to go ahead. And there was so much movement on the play. You never see that in endgame situations when the game typically slows down with ISOs and pick and rolls. But Miami is a type of team that always has that player and ball movement.

how much can Boston slow that down in the series? What they're really, really, really good defense? You also wonder, or at least I do, in that the star power was greater for Boston than it was for Toronto. There's no way around that.

They got big game. You know, one of the games, they got a huge game out of Kempa. Tatum was great the entire series. Jaylen Brown had up and down moments throughout there. And they got a great series out of Tice, right? But their starters were outstanding.

And then there's probably more bench production out of, out of Toronto for sure. You do wonder, as this has gotten farther down the line, how much does the bench matter? No matter who ends up starting for Miami, you know, the Iguodalas and the Duncan Robinsons and the heroes, like those kind of guys. And does Boston get it out of Brad Wanamaker? get it out of, you know, Grant Williams. Do they get it out of? Robert Williams.

Yeah, Robert Williams. I mean, you don't know. Clearly, the depth advantage is Miami's, right? The depth advantage is Miami's. But if there is somebody that needs to have a really good series off the bench, who is it for Boston? You know, it's an interesting you say that the depth advantage goes to Miami. In some ways, it does.

in other ways, it probably doesn't. It depends on how you're looking at depth. Boston probably has the better third and fourth. If you're ranking all the players in the series, you could argue, there might be one.

You could argue, BAM might be three, but two, four, five, and six are probably all Boston's guys. You know, with the depth of scores that they have. Oh, I know,

I know, but I was saying like, it depends on how you're looking at depth. You know, the top of the depth, top of the depth depth chart boston is stronger you know back end of the bench which matters less because they're not playing as often they don't have as big a roles Miami does win out there um but with boston's top end you know with taitem with brown

with smart with kemba four guys who can all attack off the dribble that is a handful to defend a goren dr Rogers this week remarked about that saying i still think yonis doesn't have so much help tatam if you look he's got kemba and brown we need need to prepare for him, but we cannot just throw out the whole defense at him and forget about the other guys. They have a lot of guys who feed off him. In Boston, what we've seen from Miami in the postseason is they went from a team in the regular season that didn't switch a lot at all. They ranked around the middle of the pack, I believe, and switching in the postseason, they've become one of the most frequent switching teams in the whole NBA. For my video for the restart this week, I went back

and watch their defensive possessions in the playoffs. And they've, they've switched 40% of on-ball screens, which is really, really high. And I wonder against Boston, when they're probably going to try to pick on the weakest possible matchup, whether that's Hero,

Drogrich, or Robinson, or even Jay Crowder, who is a good defender, but not a great defender, especially on the perimeter against quicker guys. How much will the switching matter against Boston, when they typically keep all, four of those guys, Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Walker on the floor at once,

will have at least three of them on the floor? Will the Miami Heat, the team that led the NBA in zone possessions on defense throughout the regular season, but has ran zero zone in the playoffs, will Miami bring the zone back as a measure to try and contain these Celtics ball handlers? My assumption entering game one would be yes, that we're going to see it and there we're going to see a lot of it. I would be surprised if we don't. Interesting.

And you brought up Crowder and you brought up Jalen. Now, Jalen, in the three games that these teams played against each other this year, he scored 74 points. The two Boston wins, he had 31 and he had 25. So, I mean, this has been, at least in the very small sample. Jalen Brown's been very good against Miami. They have not had a great answer for him when they have met up during the regular season. And if you could get that Jalen Brown to go along with the Jason Tatum we just saw in the last round, then yes, you know what I mean?

You're right. It doesn't really matter what guys six, seven, and eight are giving to you if those guys are both simultaneously playing like superstars, which would be crazy considering they're 22 and 23 years old. You know what I mean? I mean, that would be. They're a special young pairing for for sure. And with Boston, you mentioned those guys on how they've had success. I looked up yesterday. It's amazing how well Boston has played with at least three of those guys on the floor or once.

They've outscored opponents in 422 minutes by 10.6 points per 100 possessions. And that kind of gets to our overall point here with Miami about matching up against these Boston options here. the amount of guys who can beat you off the dribble. And that's where the more I think about the series, the more I analyze, the more I talk to people. I tend to fall on Celtics and 6 in this series. I was originally like this goes 7, but I'm leaning more towards Celtics and 6

because I think they have enough discipline and talent on defense to create some issues from Miami's half-court offense. I think they have enough ball handlers and attackers, especially if Gordon Haywood can get back. the big X factor, he would be a fifth that we're talking about here that could create issues. I think they have enough ball handlers to create problems for the Miami defense where maybe they have to go to a lot of zone. I lean towards Boston here for Celtics and Six.

Okay. I went and looked at the Vegas odds and I was absolutely shocked when yesterday I thought maybe, maybe not like two to one, but maybe like a $100 bet would probably net you. like maybe 160 or 180 on Miami. I mean, look, throughout the season, Boston, I think, was four and a half games ahead of them. They're the higher seed. We just watched them be very impressive against Toronto and knock off the two seed. I know that Miami knocked off the one seed.

But anyway, when I looked it up, if you bet on Miami, 100 bucks, you only get 115 back. I was very shocked by that. So, I mean, Las Vegas expects this to be a very close series is what that tells you because they're not, there's not some kind of huge risk where they're going to take a bunch of money on Miami and have to pay out the ass if they end up winning the thing. I think Miami overall has been the most impressive team throughout this entire bubble experience. And the way that they just waylaid Milwaukee to me was impressive enough. that I'm sticking with them. I also have this belief that, you know, while Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, they're the guys right now, as I mentioned earlier, they're 22 and 23.

And typically the teams that get to the NBA finals are veteran-laden teams. And I'm not saying they are without veterans in Boston, but it doesn't go very deep. You know what I'm saying? You still don't have a ton of scars on that team. They went to a game seven against the Cavaliers of LeBron James, a game seven with guys out in that series. But that was also Isaiah Thomas. That was also Al Horford. That was also. I understand. But that's a that was not the young guys team. That wasn't their team. It became the young guys team. That playoff run, it did become the young guys.

That team had way more veterans than this team did. Boston did at that time. Celtic starting lineup for that game seven. Tatum, Horford, Brown. Roseer Baines, off the bench, Morris, and Smart. That's a young team overall. It's young, but it's not 22 and 23 are by best two guys. He was a rookie. Brown was in his second year. I understand.

Terry Rozier was in his third year. Smart was making it with his first deep playoff runs. Al Horford. Al Horford is the veteran on that team. He's the lynch pan on that defense at that time. Yeah, but all I'm saying is that Boston does have scars and they've also had some really tough playoff runs. they're young in terms of age.

These guys are not young in terms of experience. You can't just look at the age and say, like, oh, they're young. These guys have been through a heck of a lot. Like, it's so rare. No, they might be. Brad Stevens alluded to this yesterday for these guys to go through everything they have at their young age, you know, the number 22, 23 is really abnormal. They've been through it.

Look, they might very well end up being like Oklahoma City was. once upon a time with a young team led by young players that gets to the finals. What I'm telling you, Kevin, is there is a history of the NBA that tells you that teams led by guys under 25 are not in the finals. Find them. Yeah, but who are these young guys in the heat besides Butler and Dragich? I mean, an Igwadala too. But like besides that, like these teams led by young guys,

Hero, Robinson, Atabio. Jake Crowder. Young guys. You're listing older guys. It goes both ways. Jimmy Butler has been in the league for how many years, like over 10, right? Andre is a veteran. All I'm saying is that there's also young guys that they rely heavily on, too, on that roster.

Their biggest minute guys. We didn't mention Kimber Walker, who's also been around for a long time. He has less playoff experience than Tatum and Brown to. Well, he wasn't exactly all that great at the Toronto series. Those are the biggest games he's played in. They also ran like boxing one on him and tried to take him out of the game. I'm saying when you look at the roster that, Miami has more of their big minute guys are going to be guys that have a lot of years under

their belt in the NBA. That's what I'm saying. They're not like in their first four or five years of their NBA careers. And again, this is the history of the NBA thing. I'm not saying Boston can't win this. I'm just telling you that when I look at all all I'm saying is that was Boston. Goran Dragich and Jimmy Butler and Andrea Guadalda. and Jay Crowder and like all the

Jay Crowder's not a key a key like guy who drives the team you know he's not a he's an older veteran but he's not a key dude but he plays huge minutes for them I know but all I was responding to is you're pointing out the age I'm saying like they're abnormal for their age that's

all I'm saying oh they might be they might end up being like the thunder I freely admit that they could but the thunder are really the only team you're going to think of that has really and especially when you get to the bench and you're talking about Brad Wanamaker and Grant

Williams and like who do they bring off their bench that has done anything. They need Hayward back, I think. They did Hayward back. Hayward is the biggest X factor right now in the league. Would you agree with that? I mean, I can't

think of a bigger X factor possible than a guy who's made All-Star teams who is undoubtedly you know, the most overqualified fourth or fifth best player if you want to put him behind Marcus Smart in the entire league. That's why I like to get back to your depth comment, Boston has depth with top end talents.

They may not have as much depth in the back end of their roster. I think you could argue otherwise, considering they have different types of centers they can put out there for matchups. They have a small ball center in Grand Williams, a rim running center and Rob Williams. They have a low post guy with Ennis Cantor. They have different types of flavors they can throw at you depending on the situation. I don't think you're going to see as much semi-ogele in the series. If Hayward's able to come back,

you're not going to see as much Grant Williams. And then what you're going to see is a really, really strong and deep seven or eight-man rotation. Boston's run about nine deep throughout the postseason depending on the big that they put out there, whether it's Williams or the other Williams or Ennis Cantor. But Boston has depth. I don't want Andorated.

It's just a matter of the matchup and what they want to put out there in order to respond to what the opponent might be doing. All right. Let's talk about the teams that, well, let's talk first about the one that they ousted. They were coming off a championship. They went to a game seven down to the wire against Boston. And now Toronto is going to hit this offseason. They exceeded all expectations, I think, that we had for them this year,

especially after losing Kauai in the off season and really not replacing. him with, you know, anything that was going to make a huge difference for their team. Really didn't replace them at all. Most everybody that logged minutes for them this year regularly was on that team that won the title last year. So they just lost Kauai letter. They ran it back and ended up having this outstanding season. You get to the off season and your Missami, Ujiri. How do you think about next season, you know, just given what just,

happened. You're hoping for internal improvement for Siakum. Do you throw the entire bag that it is going to be to bring Van Vleet back? What are the overarching thoughts on Toronto's off season for you? Well, number one

is extending Nick Nurse, which Adrian Wardenowski reported today, has happened. He received a contract extension. I can add, according to my league sources that I've heard, Masayu Jiri and Bobby Webster will also receive extensions. Webster could be paid, will be paid as one of the highest paid assistant journal managers in basketball.

He was highly sought after as a GM as the lead guy by other front offices. So it does seem like Nurse, Maasai, and Bobby Webster, all important pieces of this whole organization will stay in Toronto. And from Maasai and Bobby Webster and that entire Raptor's front office, with Van Vleet, it's certainly going to be really interesting here to see what he gets. paid and who tries to make him a high offer sheet. We don't know what the cap's going to look like yet. It's really hard to talk about and to predict the head without knowing.

But if you're the Raptors, I think it's pretty clear watching this team. You got to do what you came to keep him. He's an important piece with the shot making he can bring, the defensive energy that he brings, the secondary playmaking that he brings. And you also have to think about Kyle Lowry's getting older here. What does his next contract look like? And is Van Fleet the guy who replaces him long term? Whether you view VanVleet as a long-term, you know, centerpiece or not,

you have to retain him and keep him on your roster for sure. You can't let this be a Brockton situation. Yeah, I agree. Especially when you have the opportunity. You know what I mean? You have to say no. Like I think, oh, no, he'll be unrestricted, won't he? That's right, yes.

Wow. So you won't get the, you won't get to say no. That's because he had the short-term deal in the last. one that like my mind is off there. So then he's unrestricted. Then that means you can't bullshit with him. You know what I mean? Because then he'll feel slighted and he'll go get,

why does this team, why is this team willing to pay me this and you're not? Yeah. And, you know, with Van Vleet, you do want to see, you know, further improvement.

You know, with Toronto, we did see some of their issues with half court offense and shot creation. A lot of that comes down to see Ackham and you already did pay him. He's now going to go from a guy who is a really good player on his rookie contract to a guy who's going to be making $30 million annually and has the expectations of a max player who underwhelmed in the postseason.

And for Seacom, you know, still so young, only at 26 years old, getting better each year. He got so much better this year above the break three. He's running more pick and roll, initiating more offense. What he's been able to do and transform himself as a player is really impressive. It's remarkable for him to get to where he is. but there's still room to improve to meet the expectations of that salary, to meet what the Raptors need from him. And ultimately, what does Toronto do here?

It's continue investing in player development, continuing to push guys to reach greater limits. And Siakum is the guy that I look at more than anybody else in that entire organization that needs to keep getting better. He can't be somebody who is just getting completely neutralized and can't create and turn the corner against Robert Williams in the postseason. If Seaccom can get better,

this team is going to be in good shape for a long time. If Seacom stays the same, they're still going to be a really good team, obviously. They're great as they are. But for them to take that next level leap, Seacom needs to keep on improving as a shock creator. I'd say his perception was hurt worse than any player

throughout these playoffs. Like people's opinions going in versus opinions coming out, this guy started the All-Star game. right it's a shame that they have been hurt that much though because he's still a good player he still had a good defensive series except for really the second half of that game seven or that game six when he fell off a little bit um but he he's also with somebody who's doing something for the first time in the postseason that he didn't have to do before you know he last year he was a guy who caught off ball who hit corner three pointers and now he's a guy bringing the ball up and running pick and

role and being asked to create offense for everybody else. It's brand new for him in a postseason setting. And he had good success in the regular season doing it, but it shows the difference between the season and the playoffs. And for Seacom, he's got to get better. And I think, look, he can get better. He's also not going to be that guy. He's miscast as that.

So you're saying Toronto needs to find that guy then? Yeah, he's the Pippin. You know what I'm saying? Now, they do it as a, they do it as a collective. That's not, Skype, maybe it's a Hall of Favorite. You know what I mean?

Like people, Yeah, of course. I mean, people take umbrage at that, right? Like saying that a guy is not the alpha. He's not the man on that team.

But, I mean, he's not going to be your best player. He wasn't their best player throughout this whole deal. You know what I mean? And I think is, yeah. And I think is the season.

And as they move on, like, he's a really fantastic. sidekick that when he gets a little less attention, he's going to be a problem. But he's not the kind of guy that can deal with massive amounts of attention, which is, that's what your star gets. Your star gets the attention because they're just dedicating to shutting down. But if he's the guy that can play off another guy, now you got a real problem on your hands.

I mean, the only one that else, you know, it's funny we were talking about Vainville. I thought Montres-Harrell was going to get paid a fortune this summer, especially with the whole small ball five stuff, and he's kind of perfect for the new age, you know, NBA, it plays with all this energy, and just won six may of the year. I mean, how much is he cost himself? He's, like, where we're talking about,

he might be unplayable, you know, for long stretches in a game seven. I mean, with Harold, with Harold, he's still a good player. No, he's good. There's so many factors that have gone into this. He missed time. because a loved one passed away. It'll leave the bubble and then come back. And, you know, that probably affects your conditioning.

And you don't know what else is going on, you know, after experience something like that. So, you know, with Harold, I'm not going to read too much into it. But the fact is, yeah, he has really struggling. I'm sure that's going to hurt himself. And again, again, though, like, we don't know what the market's going to look like yet. You know, we don't know what it's looks like for the young guys, Harold and Van Vleet. We don't know what it's going to look like for the older guys. who can still produce like Gasolni Baca.

You know, Toronto's going to make a decision on them as well. And it's so challenging to know what the offseason is going to look like. By the way, we don't even know what it's going to start. I mean, we know when the finals ends, but we don't know when the draft is. We don't know when free agency is going to start, likely sometime mid-November. But we'll find all of that out, hopefully, in the coming weeks. Here's one thing we haven't talked about as we search for answers. What if Michael Porter Jr. ended Montres Herald?

what if he's just never the same after he got cracked on in the playoffs in devastating fashion looks over and sees Michael Porter Sr. You know, with his arms folded in the stand. What if, what if, what if Montres Errol is never the same after Michael Porter Jr. demolished him with that dunk. That would be a shame. Michael Porter Jr. Another, another big X factor tonight.

Hey, I'm not so sure somebody should chronicle this, the guys that have got. and dunked on in spectacular fashion and what happened afterwards. I'm not sure Brandon Knight was ever the same after the whole chalk outline DeAndre Jordan dunked. I mean, Brandon Knight also had injuries, but I know. I respect players who get dunked on. I respect them because he was trying to take a charge.

No, I respect you if you're contesting it. I know, I know, I know. If you contest the shot, yes. It wasn't a contest. I know. I respect the guys who contest a shot. on a dunk attempt, try to block it. I know we laugh at them on social media when they do.

But that to me shows real heart as a player. Absolutely. Put yourself out there. I have the utmost respect for those guys. Talking about you, Aaron Baines, talking about you, Rudy Gaubert. That's right. I got no problem. That's great.

What you can't do is the mantra is staying there like an usher while you get nuts in your face. That can't be. Let's hit that real quick. I tweeted the other week that I would be cool with. getting rid of the charge. And because I, here's the thing. I'm not saying outright just get rid of it, like totally, because that's unfair there. It's unfair to the defense.

It takes away another thing that they can do to when offenses are already so potent. Someone texted me from a team after I tweeted that and he's like, the way to do it is with the charge, if a guy leaves his feet, then you cannot just like stand there like an usher like you're saying. if he leaves his feet you have to contest a shot make a basketball play if a guy's running straight forward and it's like middle of the floor yeah like a charge is very legitimate that happens and it's a good play

on the defense it's just about those plays near the rim I think you could see more defense you might see more defense if guys don't have that block you know the block stance to go into because you're going to see more guys feel like they have to contest a shot more guys trying to alter layups and dunk attempts at the rim

that's the way I look at it. The response was like, you hate defense. You know, it's like, you know, respect players, you know, have heart who are taking a charge. Kendrick Perkins says to me, it's, you know, it takes the most heart in the league to take a charge. It's like, I'm not saying it doesn't. All I'm saying is that you might see more defense instead of guys putting their hands at their balls and trying to take a charge. I want more contested layups and dunks. This is off the cuff.

So I'm going to have to think about this more. And I will. I'll put some thought into it. But you're basically you're saying we just. outlaw the usher pose. You can't just stand there. Yeah, if the guy leaves his feet, then there can be. Then it's on you.

No charge. Then it's on you. You're the penalized one. Even if your feet are set, if he leaves his feet, you're the penalized one. And that's usually the situation around the rim. Away from the rim, I mean, a guy's going full court, you know, and he's not changing directions. You put your hands there.

You take the charge. That's legitimate. I would say. God forbid. God forbid the port. I mean, under your, in your world, though, God forbid, I mean, that Porter dunk would have been an and one. Oh, my God. I mean, just to add to the humiliation. Or maybe it's an epic block. Or he's able to jump straight up in the air, use the rule of verticality and porters has to adjust midair and screws it up. That could also happen too. That's my, that's something Mark Titus has written about, talked around on his pods for a long time. I'm with him there. And so aren't a lot of people in the league that would like to see that change too. By the way, like we're always bitching about the referees doing reviews and stuff. What do we review more than anything else?

It's the blocker charge. It's a 50-50 call. Let's get rid of that really hard decision for the referees. Make it a little simpler. That's what I want to see. Last thing. The Mike D'Antoniera in Houston is over. It's very surprised that it was like immediately

two names that surfaced were Jeff Van Gundy. Jeff Van Gundy's name has been associated with every job for the last 10 years. Who says Asian is going to be like Warren LaGerry or something like that? I mean, how is it possible that every single job comes up? It's like, oh, Jeff Van Gundy's high on their list. I swear. I mean, look, this happened here in Memphis last year, a year ago. And it's been with every single team.

Jeff Van Gundy's name comes up as a guy. And not to mention, he had been there prior to in Houston. But the other name was Sam Cassell, which I believe you tweeted about. And you were excited about the possibility of that idea, Sam Cassell being there. That would be awesome. Cassell's been a successful assistant behind Doc Rivers for years now. Players love him as a coach. Teammates loved him when he was a player.

He's always been a leader. high-a-q basketball player who has been really important with player development. He helped She Gilgis Alexander as a shooter off the dribble as a shooter off catches, reading pick and rolls during his rookie season with the clippers before they traded him away.

Cassell's a well-liked guy around the league. He's fun, but also is able to give you tough love. I remember I was, I never was able to do the story last year, but I was working on something about SGA and Cassell. And SGA said to me about, you know, he's like, you know, really like a tough love type of guy. You like to have him around, but then he can be really hard on you and critical. And I think that's the type of mentality a team like Houston could use.

So we'll see if they end up making a Kassel higher. Obviously, Clippers are still in the playoffs as we speak today. We'll see about tomorrow. But he would be a good coach. And I hope he gets an opportunity, whether that's with the Rockets or with somebody else down the line. You think Darrell's still there? I think Darrell gets at least one more year. year.

Interesting. But that's tough, though, because if you're for Titta, if you have, like, the GM hire the coach, you know, probably to like a three or four year deal, you know, maybe a two-year deal, who knows. And then, like, you oust him after one more year, then you have a coach in place that a GM's hired for with a coach that he didn't select that could create more issues for another three, four years. I would expect Daryl to be there.

But who really knows with Fertita? Who knows? Would you hire Mike D'Antony or Ty Lou if you're David Griffin in New Orleans? I think I would hire Dantone if I'm David Griffin. And if I'm the Sixers, there was a rumor last week about Dantone maybe going there as well. If I'm the Sixers, I would rather have Tailu. But if I'm the Pelicans, I'd rather have Mike Dantone. We actually agree on that.

Those would be the better fits of the two. I agree. He could unlock Zion into something extremely scary, especially if he had a wing like Ingram. And look, as someone who is a fan of another up-and-coming team, I would rather them not hire Mike Giantoni. Because I feel like he might be able to save Lonzo. Like, seriously, he's that kind of guy.

He's done it with worst players. He's given, he's put up, you know, he's had guys put up their best career years. And, I mean, you get those guys, you get Ingram and Zion and those guys. And I saw what he did with Amari Stodemar at one point. flying up and down the court. It's not like the Pelicans offense necessarily needs help, though.

I feel like that's going to take care of itself. They were good during the regular season. They have a lot of talent there. Their defense was really the problem there. And that's partially due to young guys, you know, Zion, Ingram, Lanzo, so on and so forth. But also, I think it was really like a lack of accountability there, too, a lack of overall buy-in. Yeah. And, I mean, like, Lonzo and Ingram.

Ingram were good defenders their last two years in L.A. They were good defenders. And then Ingram fell off a cliff. Lonzo fell off a cliff with his effort level. I mean, the Lonso difference between L.A. and New Orleans was really dramatic on the defensive end of the floor. And with Ingram, playing a little bit of out of position two on defense. But I wonder if maybe for New Orleans it should be more about hiring a defense first coach. Should it be that instead of, you know, an offensive coach?

I think if you're David Griffin, you go and you do the whole. defensive coordinator thing. You go and you find somebody that can be your defensive coordinator. Much like once upon a time, I mean, a lot of these guys, you know, you go back to like those Mavericks teams and it was like Dwayne Casey and Terry Stott's on those benches. There's been a bunch of guys that have come out of different scenarios, right?

And there's always coaches that are out of work, right? You know, maybe you bring in Brett Brown and let him run the defense for you, whatever. I'm saying, not him specifically, but like a guy like that. What about Chaunty Billups? His name has not been connected to New Orleans. Last week, there was a report that he's a candidate for the Pacers. Another guy like Steve Nash, who checks every box, you know, high IQ player, highly accomplished,

team leader, somebody who ran the offense, who helped his players, you know, off the court and on the court, somebody who is highly respected across basketball. Chonty Billups brings that defensive mentality. And he can be somebody who, at least on paper, seems like they could coach offense with his background of success. Chauncey Billups makes sense for me, too, from that standpoint in terms of personality and history of success as a player.

He hasn't coached like Nash. But, you know, I look at Billups as a guy, and I'm like, he could be a really good coach with the opportunity and having a good staff around him with some veteran coaches who have experience like you're saying, does Billups make sense? That's kind of an odd thing too, though.

Or New Orleans or somebody else? Wasn't he the one that was going to be the replacement for David Griffin? I mean, am I misremembering that? I thought Billups, wasn't that the deal? Billups was going to get the Cleveland job

after David Griffin moved on. I thought that's the first time that we saw because Billups was doing like TV at the time. And everybody was like, what? Like they're going to hire him to be a GM? It's odd. You know how highly Chaunty Billups is thought of when people have talked about him being hired as a GM and a coach? Those are two totally different skill sets, by the way. You know what I mean? It is. It's

two totally different skill sets. And most times when we have seen the whole coach be the GM too, it's a debacle. There's very few Bill Belichick's or Greg Popovich's. There's a lot more Bill O'Brien's and Tom Tibadoes. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Where it's like, hey, man, give them the roster and let them coach them. Like, you're usually not,

you're either great at one or the other, but Billups are so highly thought of it. It was that Cavs job, by the minute. It was. It was in 2017. Yeah. Yeah. They thought he was getting the Cavs job.

And then LeBron was going to leave, like after a year. And so, according to Chris Haynes and Mark Spears at the time, uh, according to their sources, the Cavs initially made an offer of 1.5 million. League sources told ESPN that 4 million is typically the starting point of what an individual in that role should earn.

Sources maintained financial compensation wasn't the only factor as to why Billups turned down the job on Monday, but it played a part. So that happened in 2017 over three years ago. We'll see. Now he's turned to head coaching. I hope Billups gets an opportunity, whether it's a GM or as a coach, but not both. that typically doesn't go well. Last thing is, are we going to look up in whenever next season starts, who knows, and whoever is on that Houston sideline coaching them, are they going to be coaching a team

with the back court of James Hardin and Russell Westbrook? And does that depend on whether or not Darrell Morey is there or not? Yeah, I would be shocked if they traded Westbrook because Hardin wanted Westbrook. That's why they did what they did. Paul and Hardin didn't want each other. Harden wanted Russell Westbrook. And so they made the deal. They made the deal.

Those guys like each other. They feel like they can win together. Whether they can or not, I mean, we can argue about that the whole next year. We probably will. But I would be surprised if Russell Westbrook was traded for that reason and just the second reason is because who needs a point guard and how many teams are going to want a point guard that's making $40 plus million dollars who gets ignored in the half court when he doesn't have the ball. his hands, who is an unreliable off ball defender, who isn't one of the 40 best players in the NBA. What?

There's not many teams. Look at your face. What the F are you talking about? Are you serious? You're not serious. Am I? Russell Westbrook is not one of the 40 best players in the NBA. Would you rather have, let's just go down the list a little bit.

Would you rather have Russell Westbrook or Devin Booker? We'll just play a game. Westbroker, Devin Booker. You're starting a franchise today. Factor in their salary. Factor in their age. Factor in their production. Would you rather have Russell, Westbrook or Devin Booker? Why do I have to factor in? Russell Westbrook, by the way. Okay, well, I disagree. I would take Devin Booker.

Okay. That's fine. But I mean, that's splitting hairs. It's splitting hairs. Russell Westbrook or Jamal Murray. Russell Westbrook. What are we talking about? Russell Westbrook. Really? MVP of the league. I'm a. He's won a league MVP.

How old this one? I don't understand. Tomo Murray just average 18 points a game. He won an MVP four years ago. We're talking about today. Jamal Murray just average 18 points a game. Yeah, he's also in his young 20s making far less money and is not yet, he's not past his prime.

He hasn't even entered his prime. If something catastrophic happened to Russell Westbrook today, he's a hall of favor. Yeah, we're not talking about the past. We're talking about the future. talking about the future. So he's not going to be good next three years? Look, this happened to Chris Paul too.

Everybody buried him after he fight with Hardin. Here's the big one. This one's going to make you lose your shit. I've had two separate execs from separate teams. Text me this past week saying this. I did not bring this up to them.

They brought it up to me. This is from watching Rockets Lakers. They would rather. have Rajan Rondo than Russell Westbrook because Rondo's making 2.5 million

Westbrook's making 40 million. My God. Would you rather have Russell Westbro? The guy had a Rondon Rondo, Chris. That is.

Both those exact who obviously are willing to talk to you, both of them, I would fire them on the spot. No. If they said that to me. Yes,

I would. Russell Westbro. in Russell Westbrook in that series against the Lakers was playing like buff Rondo. Do I get, do I get Russell? That's what Russell Westbrook is. Do I get Russell Westbrook coming off of a coronavirus and a bad hamstring? Or do I get Russell Westbrook healthy coming back next year? How much different was Russell Westbrook's production coming off that compared to his recent

playoffs? Russell Westbrook was like second in the NBA. Not too different. Not too different. He was like second in the NBA and points in the pain. he was the best player on the Houston Rockets from January until they stopped the season. Don't forget that. I know he was really good.

And Houston's offense and Houston's system was a big benefit for him. And we've talked a lot about the nuances of that Hardin-Westbrook. Like that all happened. In recent weeks, you know, we had a great conversation last week about playing hard and more off-ball, finding a room-running center to bring back the pick-and-roll playmaking for Westbrook. He can be a better player than he showed in. the postseason. I'm with you there. And I don't want to get into a Westbrook argument

again right now. We'll have way more time. This is where... But all I'm saying is that this is to get back to the original question of Will Westbrook and Harden be on the court again with the Houston Rockets next year. The whole overall point is that people around the league

have soured on him a little bit. Some smart people. And that's partially because... That's partially because of what happens in the postseason to Westbrook time and time and time again. What happens to Westbrook in the postseason? He was getting ignored by the Lakers' defense, Chris.

What are you laughing like this for? This is turned into what happened to Westbrook in the postseason. Really? He was getting ignored by the Lakers defense. They were zoning off of him. Stop. Stop. What happens to Westbrook in the postseason?

That's really the story of the Houston Rockets. What happens to Westbrook in the postseason? It's not the story of the Houston Rockets. It's not the story of the East Rockets. And you ignore it and blame a different person. You blame the coach. You blame Dwight. You blame Carmelo.

You blame Ross. It's always everybody else's fault, except for that we get to the post season. And James Hardin vomits all over himself again. I'm not talking about the other factors. You turned it into. Westmore gets worse in the playoffs. That's it. You turned it into Westbrook is the problem.

He is the problem, first of all. He's one of those orated players in league history. But that's a different topic. Get rid of him and Hardin will still vomit on himself next year. They change the cast and we have this same discussion every year and you just blame somebody different. This is where we break ways to because I may not like James Hardin and I don't appreciate him. I understand he is an outstanding. player who also gacks in the playoffs.

He's an outstanding player. You, on the other hand, detest Westbrook so much that you, like, act like he's not a good player. Like, I'm not even that stupid to act like James Hardin's not good. Of course he's good. He's great. He's a great player. He's a great player.

That fails his team. You just called him one of the most overrated players in NBA history and not in the top 40. I don't think that's I don't think that's totally unfair there's a lot of great players in the league today if you're talking about other guys who win that 30 to 40 range you're putting like Bam at a bio there

you're putting guys like that in that personal range of respect on Russell Westbrook's name bam out of bio might be the 30th best player in basketball right now puts some respect on Russell Westbrook's name man he's a good player he's a good player he's a good player who's had some tremendous seasons

who's had some tremendous moments I'm not saying he's not a good player. You're putting words in my mouth here. Just like I've never said that you've said Hardin's not a great player. He is a great player. That's undeniable. We have the same, and it's clockwork. At the end of the playoffs,

we have the same discussion. Chris, I didn't say that Russell Westbrook is the reason why they lost. We've had long discussions about this last week. All I just said was Westbrook, because of what he turns into the playoffs, that has turned some teams off. When teams are ignoring him, on the offense on the offensive end of the floor you've spent 10 minutes explaining why westbrook

was such a detriment how executives would rather have ronda the number one scorer in the nbae two for 11 over and over again two for 11 it's not his team kevin and it won't be his team and they can get rid of him it'll still be james hardin's team as it should be as it should be They will continue to lose before they are supposed to lose for the rest of time. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. I can't wait to watch these games coming up.

It's going to be a fun, fun night. I'm excited for the Clippers, Denver, and I'm certainly excited for what will be the Miami-Boston series, to say the least. We will talk to each other on Friday. Until then, thanks everybody. Thanks to producer, Sasha, as always. We'll talk to you on Friday.