The Ringer NBA Show - The King in the Fourth Joins King James, the Raptors Evolve, and the L.A. Teams Diverge (Ep. 185)

Episode Date: January 2, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor anticipate the impact of Isaiah Thomas returning to action for the Cleveland Cavaliers (1:09), assess the potential consequences of James Harden’s injury on the Houston Rockets’ future (18:30), commend the Toronto Raptors’ improvements as evidenced by their recent winning streak (24:47), analyze the manifold implications of the Los Angeles Lakers falling down the standings (31:26), debate the plausibility of Donovan Mitchell winning Rookie of the Year (44:10), and evaluate the Los Angeles Clippers’ suddenly viable playoff hopes (49:51). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

to the ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Join me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Conert, aka. Which one do you want? Do you want a last one? I don't know. What's up, Chris? How are you doing? Happy New Year. Kevin! It is 2018, our first episode. It's been good. It's been an odd couple weeks, I'm sure, for everybody that is listening to us also. So because it's hard to get back in the flow of everything when there's like these extremely long weekends, like four-day weekends, five-day weekends. A lot of people take off the entire end of the year. And so just getting back into the flow today on a Tuesday is a little bit different than honestly every other normal week of the year.

But there has been a ton of NBA stuff that has taken place since we last spoke. So let's hit it. First of all, Isaiah Thomas, one of the great players in the NBA last season, and then a guy that was traded in the offseason and the Kyrie Irving deal, we have not seen him yet playing in a Cleveland Cavaliers uniform, and that is going to change tonight. We're recording this on the Tuesday. He is going to make his debut tonight, obviously going to be on a minutes restriction, but he will be back on the court, and I think we will immediately kind of start evaluating how. how he fits with the calves. What do you think? Oh, it's like Isaiah said the other day, or yesterday, rather, to reporters. I've been out for so long. It feels like I lost my powers.

So for Isaiah, it's going to take time for him to get back to either the level he was at last season or close to that level. So I think for fans of the Cavaliers, fans of Isaiah, fans just watching casually, I mean, it's going to take time for a guy like Isaiah whose game is so dependent on speed and changing directions suddenly. And by shifting his body inside the lane and his athleticism, it's going to take time for him to get back, to get the feel and the rhythm.

And just for his body, just to adjust the NBA game after such a long break, it's going to take time. So hopefully for Cleveland, he does get back to the level that we did see in the past. We've talked to them about this with a lot of stars moving. And then we say, How is it all going to work, whether it was Jimmy Butler going to the Timberwolves, or it was Chris Paul going to the Rockets, or it was Paul George and Carmelo Anthony,

going to Oklahoma City, on and on and on? How is it going to work in Cleveland? Clearly, he is not going to be the guy that's taking 19 shots a game, is what he took last year, and he averaged 29 points a game. How does he fit in with what they do in Cleveland in your mind? You know, it's funny because it's like a lot of the conversations, is can he replace what Kyrie Irving did for Cleveland? And it's like, you know, well, if he gets healthy, yes, he can do isolations.

Yes, he can hit spot-up threes and whatnot. But it's like, yeah, he can do that. But what I'm curious about is how much is Ty Lou going to steal from what Brad Stevens did with Isaiah in Boston? Like, using Isaiah off screens was really one of the big, big things that Brad did to really unlock Isaiah Thomas on the offensive end to make him as efficient as he was, running him off screens and dribble handoffs at the top of the key with Al Horford. You can do that with Kevin Love, too. You can play five out, spread the floor with Love at the five, LeBron at the

four, and really give Isaiah space to really move around off screens. I think I'd love to see Tyron Lou take some of what made Isaiah successful in Boston and install it in Cleveland. Because the funny thing is, they probably should have been doing some of that stuff with Kyrie. And maybe part of that was on Kyrie, maybe part of that was the coaching. But I would love to see them get as creative with Isaiah Thomas, especially when you have another guy like LeBron with the ball in his hands, like Boston sort of did, with Isaiah off ball. That's what I'm looking forward to. I mean, how do you feel about that? Is it like, Chris, do you like expect him to just play basics, the basics of Carrie Irving's role, or do you see them trying to expand on his game?

I don't know, because what happened with, I mean, I think you clearly, I mean, Ty Loo's job is to accentuates the positives of Isaiah Thomas. And I don't think anybody would argue any differently than Brad Stevens totally maximized him. Totally maximized him. Yeah. I mean, he averaged 30 points a game, for God's sakes. And they got a 25-year-old superstar in return of a trade that included him. Yeah.

Kyrie Irving, he took 20 shots a game last year, right? So those shots, in terms of, like, you could theoretically, like, you know, there's 20 shots there that a point guard was taking, that they clearly aren't anymore. The question is they've been playing for now almost half a season, and those shots have been dispersed elsewhere. So if you do just plug in and you say, all right, he's going to do what Kyrie did for us, then other guys are taking a step backward, right?

Other guys are not going to be taking the amount of shots or being the offensive component that they were so far. and I would think that that's a good thing. Anything he can take away from Rose. Yeah. I would not be shocked if he's extremely awesome and if they are just this offensive, absolute juggernaut.

I could totally see that happening. I mean, playing with LeBron James has, in my mind, not been a detriment for virtually anyone ever. So why would playing with LeBron James be a detriment to Isaiah Thomas. And I think it's few and far between

to find the guys that have been better than when they played with LeBron. Now, you could argue stats-wise, maybe a little bit on, like in terms of just the pure numbers. The same way you could do with Chris Bosch prior to Miami, right? You could argue, oh, well, Bosch was putting up, you know, whatever,

23 and 12 when he was in Toronto. Same way Kevin Love was doing it in Minnesota. The difference would be, you know, the Kyrie stuff, clearly, because he's now playing in Boston and is having an amazing season and he is doing it while they are winning a boatload of games. But I'm not sure that his, you know, Kyrie was, he had a great season last season playing with LeBron. I mean, he was, this year he's shooting 49% from the field and he's shooting 40% from three. I don't think that that's much higher than what he was doing last year. Let me pull this up real quick.

Last year, he actually took more shots in Cleveland than he has so far in Boston, and he shot 47% and 40% from three. Yeah, with Kyrie, like going from Cleveland to Boston, a lot of it's the usage, you know, with him, like the types of shot distribution that he's getting that's changed. And that's where, you know, with Isaiah, I'm just paraphrasing these numbers, but it's like 10% of his possessions last year in Boston, or came out of isolations, whereas with Kyrie, it was like 19%.

So will Isaiah see a large uptick in isolation possessions for Cleveland? Perhaps. I mean, that's the way they play. They run near the most isolations in the NBA this year. I believe they ranked third in frequency according to synergy. So I think Isaiah is going to get more chances to do that. But it's like, will he continue to be run through dribble handoffs? Will he continue to get off-screen chances out of time?

timeouts. That's where it's like, I hope Cleveland uses him like that, because that's what makes IT as great as he really is as diverse of a score that he is, because look, it's the type of thing where I don't, I don't think it's fair to expect any player to come back from injury and to make an immediate impact like they did at the superstar level last season that Isaiah did. But I especially don't expect that when a guy is five foot nine and relies on the athleticism like he does. And I actually have, you know, significance concern in some ways because it's like, this guy's game, you know, one of the basis of him scoring every night reliably was his ability to get to the line. So if he lacks a little bit of burst on drives or a little bit of hops on his attempts at the rim, that's going to limit really what was kind of part of the foundation of what made him so effective and so efficient was getting to the free throw line. So I hope he gets back to the level or close to the level that he was on the past.

But he's still getting a long way to go. It's going to take time for him to be able to do all the magical things that he did in the past. We'll also be fascinating to see when they get in those close games down the stretch. And they do frequently. Is he the closer again, right? Yeah, that's going to be adjustment. He was clearly the man in Boston. And he was, you know, they dubbed him King of the Fourth.

And yeah, and he was the best fourth quarter scorer in the NBA. So what happens when you're not, it's hard when you're Isaiah Thomas, it's hard, just like it was a Kyrie Irving to not be the best player on your team. That means you got somebody amazing next to you. And he's not the best guy, the best offensive player on his team. And so what happens when it's coming down the stretch? Is it just by committee and some nights it's love and sometimes it's LeBron and sometimes it's D.E. Wade or is it he's going to be the guy closing these games out? I don't know for sure. I really don't. You're hitting on a great point and I know my buddy Jeff Goodman at ESPN tweeted something similar

earlier the night where he's like, you know, Isaiah could thrive with the brawn but he won't have the same type of free reign that he did while in Boston and the ball was on his hands a ton with the Celtics and he's not going to have the ball in his hands quite as much in Cleveland. And that's going to be an adjustment. Isaiah is a guy who always wanted to be the man. when he was in Sacramento, then when he was in Phoenix, and then he got the chance to be the man in Boston, and he was the man. He was unbelievable last season.

He finished fifth and MVP voting for a reason. I didn't have him top five on my ballot, but I understand why a lot of people did. He was fantastic. He had one of the most efficient high-volume scoring seasons in league history, but now he's not going to be getting that amount of opportunity to do that at the end of game. So that's going to be an adjustment. But I think judging from Isaiah's comments yesterday, he understands it's going to continue to be a slow grind back.

I don't think he has the highest expectations for himself coming right out of the gate. I think he knows that it's going to take a little bit of time to get it all back. So hopefully, you know, Isaiah is able to adapt to that. And hopefully the coaching staff is able to really help enhance his ability when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Instead of just standing around at the three-point line, run that dude through screens. He's a terror for defenses. And I think they will. I think Isaiah has enough game film on him that you can take from what's been used in the past

and install it in your own offense and use it effectively. One of the things that can make you have an unbelievable game slash season on a regular with playing with LeBron as being an awesome spot-up three guy. Now, the numbers are great and he hit a ton of threes last year. Would you consider him an elite spot-up three guy? because you know that LeBron creates these situations where if you're running two guys at him to get the ball out of his hands, there are a ton of opportunities for guys to take open threes. It feels like Isaiah took a ton off the bounce, right, last year in his best season by far.

But because there weren't a ton of creators necessarily, playmakers on that Boston team that were breaking. taking down a defense and kicking out, but that's exactly how they operate in Cleveland. And you catch swing passes across the court. You catch him from every angle. Would you consider him elite as a spot-up three guy? I mean, he's pretty terrific. I think that's part of the reason why I want him run off, you know, more and more screens and dribble handoffs. He's like a 40% catch-and-shoot three-point shooter, and that includes basic spot-ups, as you're mentioning.

It includes off-screens, hand-offs and all that. I think Isaiah is really a little overrated as a three-point. shooter off the dribble. He's consistently hovering around the 33% range over the last four seasons or so. But he took a lot more in that situation, didn't he? Yeah, he took a lot of pull-up threes last year.

According to NBA.com, 4.6 per game last season. So he took more pull-up threes than he did catch-and- shoot threes. And that's where it's like in Cleveland, he's probably not going to get quite as many of those pull-up three opportunities, which isn't a bad thing. I mean, like I said, he's

not super efficient at those by any means. I believe I tracked at one point his stats on transition pull-up threes, and I don't have the numbers in front of me in all, but the number was around like 20 percent or so for transition pull-up threes. It's just not a great shot for him.

So those will be removed from Isaiah's diet, and that's okay. If you put him in more spot-up situations, it could help them even more. It's just going to be interesting, it's not easy to install a guy in your offense midseason. So I do wonder how much of this will be, how this will be game plan for Cleveland, how much of it will be installing new sets over the course

of time building up towards the playoffs, or it's going to be the type of thing where like once Isaiah is healthy enough to play 30 minutes per game, that's just going to be the way it is, where it might be a little bit more vanilla because you don't have the, uh, the advantage of having a full training camp or anything like that to really, to really install everything that you need. I'll tell you this, Kevin. If they can, if Tyloo, it's his job to figure this out, they could just be, they could be as offensively devastating as anyone. Because what you're telling me about the, you know, the spot-up threes,

I mean, you think about just, you think about all these guys from all the way back. You can even think about, like, in the Miami days, whether it's like a James Posey or a Mike Miller or a Shane Badiye, and now, like, with even Kevin Love now. And you look at the looks that those guys get. when they're out there with LeBron. He is as good a passer as there is in the world, and he constantly draws extra attention.

And if you're telling me that he is elite at shooting that shot, at the bare minimum, he's going to be burying those on a regular because that's the one thing we know. Everybody gets open looks playing with LeBron, everybody. The big thing is he's going to stay healthy. You know, that's what it comes down to.

I don't think that can be talked about enough. Granted Isaiah probably would rather those questions not come his way. that's going to be the big question going forward. Can he stay healthy? Can he manage whatever type of hit pain he has? If there's any hip pain existing right now at this point. Does he deserve that as much as other guys, though?

Because it feels to me, I mean, you know, this is just at the top of my head that he has been a rather durable guy up until this last injury, which, by the way, he even played through for the most part at the end of the season. But it feels like over the course of, his career, he has not been an injury concern by and large. And so is it a little unfair with the whole, if he can stay healthy when we're talking about a guy that over the course of the last,

I don't know, this is six years, I think. I think it's very fair to be honest with you. I think the issue that he has, you know, he had the right for moral impingement with the laboral tear from everything that you can find online, everything that's been reported in the past. Tom Haverstrow had a great article about it last year, where it's basically detailed that the impingement in the hip, it can cause things like laboral tears. But it can also cause other injuries in that general area. Or early problems with laboral tears can be diagnosed incorrectly as stuff like groin injuries. Isaiah has been diagnosed with a lot of things in his lower leg area in the past. I wrote about this at the time of the trade.

He's had agroid injuries. He's had things like bruised lower back, bruised right quadriceps, other issues in the hip area as well, where it's like he's had lower body injuries. So you do wonder how much of those over the course of time have been connected to the impingement in his hip or how many of them weren't. It's hard for us to know. We don't have that information. But what we do know is that this condition that he has isn't something that goes away.

It just doesn't disappear. It's something that he's had for some period of time over the course of his life. It just accumulated up and eventually resulted in the laboral tier. So hopefully for him, he's able to manage it like he has in the past and played at an elite level. Because it's not just in Boston he was really good. He was really good in Sacramento too. And he was really good in Phoenix before he was traded as well. He's been good throughout his career.

He just reached an MVP caliber season level last year. But he's always been a good player, being able to manage basically what is essentially pain. So if he's able to continue managing the pain through whatever way he has to do that, then he's going to produce. Hopefully it just doesn't result in another major type of injury that requires surgery. That would be the worst case scenario for him. It would certainly be the worst case scenario. I do recall Isaiah Thomas did. He was quoted as saying, I am not damaged.

I'll be back and I'll be the same player. So we will see. It starts tonight. Wish him the best. Let's move on. Another guy that the news came out yesterday about another injury in the NBA. So while Isaiah Thomas returns to action on the court, we are not going to be watching James Hardin play basketball for a while for at least two weeks. As he got a hamstring injury.

Hamstrings are super dicey too, right? Because that's not one of those. Yeah, those can linger. Yeah, they can really linger, and it's not one, and they're easy to re-aggravate, and it's not one of those that you just, you hurt it, and then there's just an immediate timeline, right? We know it takes this long, generally, to recover from something, dependent on the tear, dependent on the player, those things. I have seen hamstrings where guys have come back way quicker than was necessarily expected,

and I have seen them more often miss more time than was first expected. Because the worst thing you can do is go back out there and hurt it again. And they can be really bad. I mean, like I said, I've seen, there was a Tony Allen missed the year that the Grizzlies were up two to one on the Golden State Warriors. The first title year for the Warriors, he bust his hamstring and never played again, right? the rest of that series. And then it was long and he was limping around. And so I've seen this injury a lot.

It's a weird one because of the timeline on it. The question is this is a team that has played a rather short rotation. Lucky for them, they do have Chris Paul back in the mix playing with them. But they had cooled off record-wise recently. And now they lose Hardin for a couple of weeks. And the team, like I said, that doesn't play a lot of guys. What do we think is going to happen with the Rockets? This, I think, by both of our accounts, was the MVP of the league thus far this season.

And so now you take him out of the mix. Do they become an average team? Do they become a really good team instead of a great team? What do you think? Well, you know, it's going to be interesting to see what happens with Chris Paul at the controls of the heart of the sun for that team. Whereas now you're going to have Eric Gordon kind of resuming the same role. he had last year where he controls the bench unit. So I think, look, I think the key thing, and this kind of relates to what we just talked

about with Isaiah, where I'm always paranoid about these type of lingering injuries because health is the most important thing. You need to be available. So for what is essentially an 82 game preseason for a team like the Rockets, the priority needs to be getting James Harden back healthy. So if it's four weeks instead of two weeks, so be it. You know, like the important thing is that this isn't. a lingering issue come mid-April when the playoffs begin.

You need him at 100% at that time, and that needs to be the priority. Whatever this happens to this team over the next two-plus weeks with Hardin-Out, you know, it's not necessarily a bad thing for Chris Paul. And again, a lot more reps with perhaps starters because you never know if that time might come in a pivotal moment where he needs it. So I don't think that experience is a bad thing. I think, if anything, to me, the more interesting part is like, This opens up the MVP race

in a huge way for LeBron. I think LeBron can really just hop into the forefront of that discussion. But to me, it's just like with the injury, just get him healthy. Everything else will work itself out. So the MVP race kind of sticks out. How about you, Chris?

All right, so they were 10 and 7 when Paul wasn't playing. So I would make them, what, 16 and 2 with Chris Paul in the lineup? They're 10 and 7 when he was sitting down, which is good, not great, but certainly really good, considering you're missing

one of the best point guards in the NBA playing. They're still going to be really good. Without Hardin? Yeah, they're going to be, they have another Hall of Fame point guard in Chris Paul. That's one of the perks of having two of those guys. They're still going to be really good. Interestingly enough, they have, I read

Kevin Pelton, I believe it was, chronicled this morning. And then if we are just going to extrapolate on what has taken place thus far, what we know has happened so far, with Chris Paul on the court and Harden on the bench.

That's typically been against opposing second units, but they have outscored their opponents by 21.5 points per 100 possessions in those situations. Paul averaging 27 points, 14 assists per 36 minutes, which is like, that's outrage. Come on. That can't keep up. And Pelton even writes in parentheses, don't expect him to keep that up. 27 and 14. You think they're still going to be really good

without James Hardin out there. Now, their schedule's favorable, obviously over the course of the next couple of weeks. They don't play, it's like Bulls, Magic, Sons. These are the kind of teams that they are playing against. The Bulls are the best team in basketball. I know.

I'm aware. But they are also not one of those teams that you would have marked down as a Houston loss. right before the heart injury. I don't know. I mean, you are replacing just an absurd amount. I mean, it's 30, just the raw numbers, 32 points, nine assists, almost two steals,

a guy with a 30.5 P.E.R who is shooting 45% from the field, 39% from three, and he takes 11 threes a game. I mean, and by the way, also, this is the underrated one. He goes to the free throw line 10 and a half times a game. And so he is constantly putting the pressure on you because if you foul down the stretch, you're almost always going to the free throw line because he gets you in the damn bonus three minutes into every quarter. It's a lot to replace. But the thing is, though, is how far will this team slide?

I mean, I just don't think that they're going to slide very far to the point where it's going to matter a whole lot. Maybe they slip to the three seed. I just don't view it as a, I mean, look, it sucks. obviously you want your guys healthy, but the priority just needs to be getting him back healthy for the real season, the postseason. So if anything, it's like, oh, good thing this happened in December and not in late March or something like that. All right. Let's get to DeRosen. He had 52 last night as we're recording this on Tuesday.

Toronto has been bawling out, and DeRosen deserves an immense amount of credit, in my opinion, for how he has altered his game. this year, along with that entire Raptors team, Dwayne Casey, who has switched to the way they play. They are a fun team to watch play. They really move the ball now. And though they have changed the way they are playing, he's averaging 25 points a game. But the big number is he's now averaging five assists a game going along with four rebounds. He has become a more than adequate, in fact, maybe good passer, which that has not been the case over the course of his career. He's also, it's not a massive number.

He's only taking three a game, but he is taking three-threes a game and he's hitting him at a reasonable rate. They have overhauled a great deal of that team. We talked a couple of weeks ago where I said, I said to you about just the new trend, or rather, the new undervalued thing is just having guys that don't suck and you look up and down and they're generally all the way down the roster with most of the guys they play. It's guys that do not suck.

And I know that sounds trite, but watch NBA games. Like any night, even if it's good teams, you can watch them and go, that guy sucks. And you almost never say that with the Raptors. And so DeRosen leading the charge has altered his game. The whole team has altered their game. And Toronto, they have been, you know, They never get on national TV for anything, but they have been super impressive so far this year and are currently second place in the Eastern Conference just two and a half back from Boston, which weirdly two and a half back.

They've got the same amount of losses, but they have five less wins. Toronto has played five less games than Boston, which is shocking to me. I was like, how did that happen? Boston has the London game in January with four days off before and four days off after. It's wild. Gotcha. I didn't realize that. They've also got the best point differential in the Easter conference, plus 7.7.

And that would actually put them behind only Golden State in Houston in the entire NBA. What are you thinking on Toronto? You're going to give credit to Wayne Casey for really changing the culture with this team, more ball movement, more passing, but also to the players for developing their games individually and for adapting to that system. And DeMar de Rosen's right ahead of that with the 52 point game that he had the other night. dude was draining threes dude was making great plays for his teammates as a passer it remains to be seen if de rosen's recent three-point shooting really hot streak

will sustain for him he's shooting 35% from three this season on three attempts per game I don't know if that sustains I do know I wrote a story before the season started that it was a goal for him and him and his trainer Chris Farr to extend his shooting range So it's a possibility that this is the new Drew Rosen

And that he is able to shoot a threes effectively and more consistently So what we'll save it really? It's like the passing the playmaking Ability is really what I think is got to stick for that team and make a significant impact Having two guys with Lowry and with the Roos who can make plays out the drill for their teammates Is incredibly valuable and that was on display last night against the bucks as well Pretty amazing to see a team be able to Rebuild themselves on a fly with rather than blowing it up.

Oh, yeah. I mean, that was my whole plan with Toronto. The whole plan was re-sign everybody, go into the next season, and see how these young guys develop and then make your decision. And it's pretty clear now where you wouldn't blow this team up. DeRosen has improved. Lowry is continuing to adapt. O.G. In Inobie is fantastic defensively. They have a lot of pieces on that team.

They can play with two bigs. They can play with Valanchunis and Ibaka. big if they want to to have better rebounding. They can play small if they want to. They have good young talent off the bench. They're an impressive bunch, right? And I think if Ananoi continues to get better,

if he reaches another level offensively next season, they could be on another level, man. They could get even better than they already are now. Are you telling me that I can't find evidence of Kevin O'Connor saying that Toronto should blow it up? Yeah, you can't find that evidence because what I said,

if you read like the subtext it's they should bring every they should resign everybody this summer and then go into next season and then determine what they should do then and the reason why you would do that is for two reasons because you afford yourself more time and secondly you retain the guys

that you would otherwise lose to free agency so it wouldn't make it wouldn't make any sense for them to blow it up in summer 2017 the time to do it would have been during season 17 18 over the summer of 2018. That was the whole thing where it's like, should be thinking about it and having a plan for it, but also have a plan to continue on the path that you're on

if you get development from young guys, if you get necessary changes. And that's what's happened. I think it would be silly if they were to blow it up. But I do think it was something that they should have thought about at one point. And now it's just a thought that's in the past. I just typed in, Blow It Up Toronto, Kevin O'Connor.

The first thing that came up was the Blow It Up Index on the Rams. And then we had the Raptors are good, but they might have to blow it up to be great on the ringer. Yeah, two different article. It's the truth. Exactly. I hope people read past headlines and tweets and all that because that's really just interest. But I think with Toronto, I think that their plan is something that could have been followed. If it went a different way, maybe they would have been a team that I would be saying right now to blow it up.

But it would be silly to do now. It was just something that they should have strongly thought about heading into the season, but not with the way the changes have happened. I think honestly, man, like Dwayne Casey deserves so much credit for, I think, really making the change that they have. But more than anything, the players adapting as quickly as they have, it's not hard to change the way you play a game that you may have played a certain way your entire life. And these guys have really adapted quickly. And not only has it enhanced the star players like the Rose and a Lowry, it's enhanced everybody on the roster. They're a big time team for sure so far this year.

All right, let's move to the Lakers sliding, which is they now have the second worst record in the league behind only the Atlanta Hawks. They have gone one and nine in their last 10 games and have now lost seven straight games. The reason that this is particularly significant is because of their upcoming draft pick, which will belong to Boston. And then I believe if it's number one goes to Philly, right? So you are now, like if you're a Celtics fan, this Lakers collapse, which has taken place is real, real significance. Because it looked like they were going to be bad, but not like one of the few worst teams in the league bad. But as of now, like I said, we're 36 games into the season, and they got the second worst record. A couple of things.

Missing Lonzo has actually really hurt them, really hurt them badly. And Brooke Lopez as well, who has been a positive impact player for them. But now this is about to get really, really interesting because, God forbid, if Boston gets another lottery, if they get this Lakers pick and they get like a top five pick out of the whole deal, it's as crazy as it gets. it's funny because the lakers team affects three teams the lakers obviously because they have hopes of having a big submarine free agency with potentially two max spots so you want your team to be appealing looking to those potential free agents to the Celtics because if they get that pick it'll be in the two to five range and the sixers because they could potentially get the number one pick if it's number one it's top one protective then six to thirty so philly gets that pick if it's anywhere from one to six to three Boston gets in the two to five range. So it's really one of the more polarizing teams to watch both for the on-court product and for the draft pick.

So I think this dip was kind of a little bit expected. You could look at their schedule in December and see Cleveland, Golden State, Houston, Golden State, Portland, Minnesota. There's a lot of tough games on there. It just so happens that they've dropped some of the more winnable games. Like they lost by 10 versus Memphis, lost by 15 to the Clippers. They just got smoked on Monday night by the Wolves for the second time in the past couple weeks. So they've lost some games like the Memphis and LA game that you might have expected them to win. So things are a little bit worse than maybe expect.

And I think it's like you said, Chris, that comes down to just not having Lopez. It comes down to not having Lonzo. They've lost some impactful guys. And now Kyle Kuzma is dealing with some type of leg injury, a thigh injury that may keep him out Wednesday against Oklahoma City. so that could be another loss for the Lakers. They're sliding fast. And the one thing he didn't mention was the team meeting. They had a team meeting last week.

It's a little sooner for that, and a little surprising for a young team. See what Luke Walton just did in their recent game? There was just a couple minutes into the game, and he did the hockey thing. He took the whole damn team out last night. They were down like 14-0 to the Timberwolves, and he said to hell with it.

He took five guys on the court and put five new guys in. It's rare. Yeah, it's not something you see often at all. Like you said, it's a hockey thing more than anything else. Or even like a high school basketball thing maybe. Pewee, pee-wee level. But I think they're an interesting team. They are still interesting to me.

I still, despite the losing, despite all the losses happening this past couple weeks, they still have a lot of young talent. If I'm a Lakers fan, I still want to be worried too much when I see Brandon Ingram and Kyle Kuzma out there, Josh Hart making progress. There's still a lot of good things happening for that team despite the L's piling up. It will be very fascinating to see what they do with that

because let's say there's a scenario in which they strike out in free agency, right? That somebody just says, you know what, man, you got a long way to go. If you end up with another 20-something win season or whatever, that somebody out there that some great player sits there and goes, I know they got young talent, but it's still a little ways away.

It's still a couple years away from them being able to win big. And so they strike out on free agency. You do wonder if they use that young talent. Once upon a time, young talent was what Danny Aange used. Now, he already had Paul Pearson, fairness. But he used that young talent in order to flip it and get Kevin Garnett and get a great player like that. They opted not to do that this past off season. Because you know with their young talent, they could have trumped deals.

They could have probably trumped the Jimmy Butler deal. They could have trumped the Paul George deal more than likely. Theoretically. Yes. You could. We all knew Victor LaDefo was going to be a stud. All of us. No, no, I'm saying, but you could have trumped that.

I know. I'm only kidding. Yeah, no. At the time, they certainly, between draft picks and between what they had, they had the goods to be able to try to go get a star. In other words, they're saying they could have put up the number two pick Lonzo Ball if they wanted to. They could have put that on the table.

They could have put Brandon Ingram out there if they wanted to. They could have put Randall out there. They could have put Clarkson out there. They could have put all kinds of guys out there. Yeah. I mean, some good players, some good young players. But now, what if you don't get the big free agent this summer? Then what?

I just don't think that you're going to, how many consecutive losing seasons are you going to have there? Right? Because if they didn't add a big free agent this offseason, you would not say they're going to be a playoff team next year. I mean, it's based on their free agent and what they're able to do in free agency this summer as to can they be back in the mix as of next year. I wonder if they, let's say they miss out on all the top tier free agents. They miss on LeBron. They miss on Paul George.

Cousins decides to stay in New Orleans or go somewhere. else, right? All the free agents are gone. Will they move to, will they, will they look to conserve cap space or will they look to like the second tier free agents? Will they, will they turn to a guy like the Isaiah Thomas level of free agents? Will they look towards other guys? Will they look towards a Avery Bradley type? Will they look at those guys? A Clint Capella, a Jabari Parker even. Will they more turn towards doors guys with their cap space? Or will they look to conserve cap space and try to hit it even bigger in a future summer? Personally, if I were them, I think if you miss out on the LeBron's of the world,

I don't think it's such a bad thing to maybe go for a Jabari Parker type. One of the younger guys, I would have issues if they were to go for some of the older guys. I don't think even going for Avery Bradley does a lot for you. I don't think going for DeAndre Jordan or Isaiah Thomas does a lot for you. I think it's going for those younger guys who have upside perhaps that could really pay off for you. Some of the restricted free agents. Because that way you're not dishing out a long-term max contract, but you could be getting a guy who has further upside. Or you could do what you get into with KCP, sign guys to one-year prove-it deals.

That could always be an option too, like the Sixers did with JJ Redick. They'll have options to sign guys. So maybe they could make themselves into a 7-8-seed type of team. but you're right though that if they do miss out on those star players it's going to be fascinating to see what happens. This is why they put Polinka and Magic in charge. Polinka's got crazy connections because of his prior involvement in sports agency and Magic Johnson's Magic Johnson. If you get the meetings, you get that meeting with Magic Johnson and I do think that is significant. And I think that does matter.

I feel like that's the gig, right? I don't think magic was in there to do the, is there to necessarily do the day-to-day minutia of what it takes to be in charge of an NBA franchise. Not that he would be incapable of it, but because I think his name, his voice, his experience, him sitting in those free agency meetings, et cetera, and his ideas on what is taking place with the team, that that can be his greatest significance towards building a team. And so I wouldn't bet against him, right?

I mean, I'd want him in that room, as opposed to many other general managers. Oh, sure. You know, slash, you know, I would just feel bad if I'm in charge of a team, you name the GM. You name the guy that's in charge in that meeting. and I walk out of my free agent meeting and the next guy walking in that room is Magic Johnson,

I'd be like, oh, shit. Yeah, it's like Paul George said today, quote, this is a quote, I would have loved to go back home and play for my city. He was talking about the rumors when he was with the Pacers that he was going to leave and go play for the Lakers in 2018.

So he admitted today, quote, I would have loved to go back home and play for my city. So if you're Paul George, and it's July 1st, and you're home, you're back in L.A. and Magic Johnson or Rob Polanco sitting across from you as you're sitting at the Lakers practice facility

on your free agent visit, I mean, it's kind of hard to say no when you're back home and Magic Johnson's sitting across from you and they can sign you and they can still have the flexibility to sign another star player. It's hard to say no to that. I think free agency, the pitch matters, the people matters, the people that you're going to be working with every day.

And Magic Johnson has proven really no matter what he's done as a businessman that he is the type of person. I think a lot of guys would like to play with or work with the Lakers. You know what I was just thinking about the other day because we've all just assumed, as if I, that Paul George will end up being a Laker was I was watching the Lakers last week and I wondered to myself how he fits with Ingram. I've got an immense amount of Ingram stock have. I think he's going to be fantastic. And I do wonder if that's kind of a goofy fit with Ingram, Paul George and Ingram together as the wings.

Because Ingram's not going to be playing. I don't think he's going to end up being a four. I mean, I look at him like a, you know, a Durant, the Janus, and I'm not saying that level of player, clearly. And he's only 20 years old. But by the time Ingram's 22 or 23, I could see him being great, great. And I did wonder, like, does that stunt it?

Then is that the best thing to try to put alongside him is somebody like that? I don't know. I don't think that's a great fit to you. You know, I was thinking about this the other day or talking about it with one of my friends. I forget, but it's like, let's say LeBron is going to the Lakers. And let's say he gets his choice of adding one other guy to Marcus Cousins or Paul George. You could make the argument, bogeys the better fit for that roster.

Like if you're ending games with Boogie, LeBron, Coosma, Ingram, Lanzo, compared to having really no big man or just more of a non-floor spacing big man, like Zubats or someone like that in there, I think boogie is probably the guy that you would choose because you already have the forwards in Coosma and Ingram. Even to that extent, if you look down the bench, there's a lot of other guys that can play the four as well. So I think maybe Cousins would be the better guy to have on that roster.

But at the same time, on the other side of it, it's like you can never have enough versatile wings slash forwards in today's league. So if you're adding Paul George on top of Coosma and Ingram, I think you could figure that out. You'd be more than happy to have those bodies on the team. But there's only so much salary cap space. So it comes down to how you want to build your team and what options are actually available. But I think LeBron and Boogie would be interesting, or George and Boogie for that matter. Yeah.

And it's possible my opinion is too high of Ingram. But I view him as a guy that's going to be an NBA All-Star. I had him ranked ahead of Simmons in his draft. Oh, this is perfect, Dan. This is actually a perfect segue, Kevin. Good job by you. Simmons. I think through the first 25, 30 games, it was a given by almost all of us in the NBA media

world that there's no chance that he doesn't win the rookie of the year. But our boy Donovan Mitchell's making this fun now, Kev. This has been an outstanding rookie class, but the one that you are seeing being buzzed about the most over the course of the last couple of weeks is by wide margin Donovan Mitchell. Also, by the way, Dennis Smith since being back in the lineup has been outstanding for the Mavericks. This rookie class continues to just amaze. but I'm kind of starting to feel like, you know, I told you when we did our season predictions.

I wanted so badly after how much I fell in love with him during Summer League, I wanted so badly to take Donovan Mitchell to win rookie of the year, but I was just scared to chants a rookie of the year. Real chance? He does. I think he's at least going to enter the conversation a little bit. I mean, I don't think he's going to win it. I still think Ben Simmons is going to win this probably in a landslide just for two reasons. Reason one, look at the history. of voters decisions.

Voters like big numbers. Ben Simmons puts up big numbers. So that has working for him. And then also, here's the other fact. He's really, really unbelievable. So, I mean, I think he's the right choice. But at the same time, you're right that Donovan Mitchell is right there in the conversation

because he is just absolutely unbelievable this past three weeks or this past four weeks or so. He's scoring with efficiency from all levels of the floor, whereas Ben Simmons can only score from within five feet. Donovan Mitchell is doing a lot of great things to the Utah Jazz. He's a very diverse scorer, and I think perhaps he could steal some votes from Ben Simmons, whereas before, everybody thought he would be the unanimous winner. Maybe Mitchell will steal some votes now. I still don't think he's going to win. I still think Ben Simmons is just on another level as a rookie.

So when you factor in the numbers, factor in the factoring the fact that he's actually going to win. great. It's not just empty numbers. He's actually terrific. I don't see how Ben Simmons could lose unless he just falls off a cliff. Well, here we go. Let me give you some odds. As of today, they've updated it on Bavada, who posts the rookie of the year odds. Between Bavada's last update, which was December 1st and now, Donovan Mitchell's average 23 points shooting 51% from the field and 88% from the line. You also have Kyle Kemp. Kuzma, who has been much, much better over the course of the last month or so. Ben Simmons, 2 to 13.

So overwhelmingly the favorite. Second is Donovan Mitchell, 4 to 1. Kyle Kuzma, 20 to 1. Jason Tatum, 25 to 1. And then a tie between Lonzo, Lori Markinen, and Dennis Smith, at 40 to 1. Hmm. Kind of like those long shots.

Donzo. Dennis Smith would be the one if I was doing a 40 to 1. After Lonzo was the heavy favorite. You remember, in a lot of people's eyes before the season. Yeah, Ben Simmons is the overwhelming favorite. Second, Donovan Mitchell,

4 to 1 is not great odds, I don't think. Right. But if he could sustain or, God forbid, improve on what he just did this past month, that's a lot of months in a row that you're going to be rookie of the month and that you're going to have these crazy stats and they're going to put you up on that, you know, on those graphics ahead of some of the all-time

greats, etc. I mean, just like they're doing or have been doing with Simmons, right, when they're talking about triple doubles and we're talking about everything that he has done. Tatum at 25, the one's a decent deal, right? I mean, Tatum's, he's awesome. He's just, I mean, if it's a numbers deal, but he's like, he's an outstanding player that's going to be doing what he's doing on a team that very well may win the Eastern Conference.

And so if that's taken into consideration, Tatum, when a 25 to 1 seems a little long on Tatum, doesn't it? I don't know. I mean, I don't know where the reps are going to be. I mean, he's averaging nine shots a game. Yeah, you're right. I just think it's Simmons. Simmons is going to win the award and a landslide

and it's the interesting part who finishes second. Now it's probably Mitchell. So it's like who finishes third. And at that point, in some ways, it's like, who cares? I don't know. I mean, it'll be fascinating to see. I think Donovan can win it. I do.

You think he can legit win? I don't know, man. Yes. I don't know. I do think he can win it. Maybe if Utah pushes, gets into the playoffs and Philly just completely collapses and they fall far to the playoff race. And then there's the narrative of Mitchell led his team to the playoffs.

As a rookie, Simmons was ineffective at the end of games. That could be a narrative. That could work in your favor. Because by the way, he would be the leading scorer on a playoff team. If it plays out like I think it could, right? I mean, he is currently their leading score even right now. And that's him averaging 18 a game where we just said the last month he averaged 23 a game. If he averages 20 points a game and they make the playoffs and he's the leading scorer on a

playoff team in the Western Conference, then yes, I think he can win the award for sure. By the way, speaking of that Western Conference, last thing we'll touch on, Blake Griffin's back in the fold for the Los Angeles Clippers. The Clippers currently stand one and a half back of the eight seed on the New Orleans Pelicans. They have won three games in a row, have the Clippers and kind of gotten some things going their way. I mean, that's going to be a bad look for New Orleans.

If LA takes over their playoff spot. Well, you look at their last couple of wins. I mean, over the course of the last couple of games that they've had, I said they had three wins. I mean, they buried Sacramento. They buried the Lakers. And then they ended up beating Charlotte by eight in their last game, 106 to 98 on New Year's Eve,

a game that Lou Williams had 40 points and eight assists. Now that Blake Griffin is back in the fold, I know at the beginning of the season, you were high on the clippers, and then we just punted on the clippers. But now they're kind of back in the mix again, you know, projecting forward, are the clippers going to be back in the playoffs? Bill Simmons and I had a good conversation about this last week where it's like with the clippers, we were having, everybody was talking about where old DeAndre Jordan get traded, will they blow it up, blah, blah, blah, just a couple weeks ago. But at the same time, it's like they have Teia dosage back now, Blake's back, Gallinari will hope for. be back eventually and hopefully he actually stays on the floor for once. But you have your guys coming back where I don't think the benefit of blowing this team up

outweighs the benefit of actually perhaps keeping it together to see how this team actually works out. Because it's like we talked about before the season. I like this team a lot on paper. I think with the systematic changes, the team wanted, aspired to go through with more ball move, kind of like with Toronto, more three-point shooting from a guy like Blake Griffin with Tia Docherch coming off the bench and now starting for that team. They have a lot of talent.

I mean, granted, you mentioned that Hornets game. They had C.J. Williams and Joanne Evans starting, who a casual fan might not really know who either of those guys is. So they still have some, they still need guys back. But now the Blake's back. They need to continue. We'll just reconvene on them because this is a huge week. They play the Grizzlies tonight on NBA TV.

And then they play Oklahoma. Oklahoma City Thursday. They play Golden State on Saturday, and then they play Atlanta on Monday, and then they're at Golden State. So this stretch could be horrendous, right? The only games, the only two that they'll be favored in. That Memphis game's going to be tough.

I'm only kidding. You watch your fucking mouth. They played two days before Christmas, Kevin. Read me the score. 1-15 to 112 Memphis. Thank you. The win over the clippers. Thank you.

You just say, hey. Austin Rivers dropped 38. 38. No, the whole. Lou Williams dropped 36. Too funny. Those guys were off. I was at the game.

It was unbelievable. Unbelievable. They're back court. Lou Williams. And by the way, Lou Williams had the Grizzies were up by double digits with like a minute left to go. And Lou Williams had a three to tie it at the,

like at the buzzer. I was like, Washington, Steph and Clay Thompson when they were on the floor together. Yes, yes. Austin River. And by the way, if you go and look, Austin Rivers had dropped a million the night before in Houston. They beat Houston. Yeah.

And then he came to Memphis and dropped on a second game of a back-to-back. Yeah. And then since then, eight points against the Kings, 13 points against the Lakers. And then he missed the game versus the Hornets. And they won without him. Clippers stink. So anyways, they... Hey. Hey.

Come on, man. Our teams against each other tonight, Isaac. I know, I know. I'm looking forward to watching it, man. It's a rivalry game. It is a rivalry game. So anyway, they got the Grizzlies, Oklahoma City, Golden State, Atlanta at Golden State.

This is not going to be pretty these next five games, Kevin. The only games they will be favored in is Memphis and Atlanta. Do you think they should blow it up? The Clippers? Yeah. What the hell is there to blow up? Move DeAndre. Somebody told me the other day,

this guy quote in the know whatever as they want to say NBA intelligentsia told me that he was convinced D'Andre Jordan's going to be a cavalier and I was like what the hell? Like I don't know what the hell I mean. What are they giving up? Thompson's got a Kardashian baby coming in LA. So that's the thing? Thompson could be nice to be back home. They throw together a Thompson deal where he's the central part.

I know. LeBron loves Thompson. Here's my thing is I think it would be insanity to trade the Nets pick for DeAndre Jordan. Even if that pick, you know, right now if the season ended today, the pick would have the 10th best odds. So the chances are it would be the 10th pick. I mean, is that worth giving up for DJ? Kevin, their starting lineup could theoretically be when it comes playoff time.

Isaiah Thomas, Dwayne Wade, LeBron James, Kevin Love, and DeAndre Jordan. He's like a damn all-star team. It's pretty dope. I mean, that's my thing. It's like, I'm not going to argue that hard against anybody if they say that they should trade the Nets pick for DeAndre Joran because he's a great, he's a terrific. He's a terrific. He's not rebounding the ball like he used to.

He's even not defending as well as he used to for that matter either. He's just, my answer would be if I'm Cleveland, I totally sell out for this year. This is my probably or could very well be my last shot of the title. So I don't even give a shit. But you get a pay the Andre probably a max this summer. And not only that, the next could always get worse moving forward. That pick could end up number four or number three or even number one. I get it, Kevin.

But that's like, eh. Hold on now, though. I then at least have a baseline. If I lose LeBron, maybe I could try to bring back Isaiah. Maybe I could try to bring back DeAndre. And now I got an Easter conference playoff team still. I'm not dead if LeBron walks. If I had loved DeAndre and Isaiah, I'm going to win a lot of games.

And that's without Wade, and that's without LeBron. They walk. Let's say they go somewhere else, probably together. That's fair. That's very fair. I think if you're Cleveland, you would need to have some confidence that DeAndre is going to stay with you regardless. I think it's probably hard to have confidence in DeAndre Jordan's decision-making,

considering what happened a couple years ago. down in Dallas. So we'll see what happens with him. But I think if the pick is 10th, you do it, but you don't know what the pick is going to be 10th. Brooklyn's going to drop games, and they're only three and a half games back from having the worst record in basketball.

They're a bad, they have a bad record, right? They just have no incentive to tank. But if that, if they end up slot in in the six or seven range, I wouldn't feel that good about trading that pick for DeAndre Jordan. But I'm also not necessarily as high on DJ moving forward. as maybe other people are. I'm not as high on draft picks as you are. You're just going all in.

Because in your opinion, perhaps winning a title this season or maybe even just having a guy like DJ on the team increases your odds of keeping LeBron. Is that kind of part of the reason why you feel the way you do about that trade? Yes. That it would show, listen, we did literally everything we could. Everything we could.

Could it hurt, though? Could it potentially hurt if DJ can't even stay on the floor against the Warriors? because you have no floor spacing because they're intentionally following them. I mean, could it potentially hurt where it's like, oh, geez, now we gave up the eighth pick, which could get us player X.

You know, it could get us Tray Young, or we gave up the number one pick, and now we lost our big bargaining chip for other big trades, or we lost the ability to draft a guy like DeAndre Aiton or Marvin Bagley or whoever. I mean, I think, it could help, you're right, but it could also hurt a lot, too.

And I just kind of tend to be on the side where I think it could maybe hurt, where this team needs to think about sustainability. They need to think about post-Lebron, whether it's this summer or whether it's five years from now. And having a young guy, a potential stud locked up on a rookie deal for four years and plus restricted free agency after that, another four years, I think if you're Cleveland, that's the route to go. Given what they have defensively, and especially if you're going to have Isaiah playing big minutes for you, having a guy that can really, you know, at least dissuade people from driving to the basket at will is a huge positive. And the other thing is one of the ways that you can deal with and have a great chance at beating the warriors is to destroy them on the board. That's what we saw Oklahoma City do.

That's what we saw the Grizzlies do when they would have those wars in the playoffs. Yeah. That's how you do it. And when you're throwing love and Jordan out there, you're going to get a shit ton of rebounds, that's for sure, between those two. And so I think, listen, it's a tough task to be able to knock them off. But getting the guy that may be the best rebounder in the league who's averaging 15 a game by himself, I think that that might be able to push you over the top.

I think Cleveland's going to have a chance anyway if Isaiah is even close to what he once was. I do not think it is just a foregone conclusion. It's going to be another, you've already had Steph miss some games, even though he looked amazing over the weekend. But it's going to be, it's going to be another year of playing whatever it is, 90-something games by the time it's all said and done. Here's the funny thing, right? Like we're talking about if you're Cleveland, would you trade for DJ?

But if I'm L.A., I would be pushing. for that trade, regardless of how I feel about my playoff chances this year. Because if I'm LA, I don't think it's such a bad thing if you get Blake Griffin more time at the five. If you're putting him at the five and you're playing a little bit more small ball and perhaps having Thompson come off the bench and play essentially what he does the role that he does now, where sometimes you play with two bigs, but maybe you're playing Blake at the five more. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If I'm the clippers, I'd consider trading DJ, even if I do want to make a playoff push this year because you can do both.

I mean, if you can get a high draft pick, that could really change things for your franchise if you hit on that. Whereas DJ, I don't think does. Been a long time since they've had a high draft pick. Long time. I mean, what? Bledsoe maybe? That wasn't even high. That was middle of the first round.

I think Bledsoe, right? Would be... Bletso, Gordon. Yeah, Gordon was before Bledsoe, though, right? So Gordon would be the last high pick, but Bledsoe would be the last, what, top 20? Yeah. I mean, they'd be good teams ever since. I just had a Google search for Blake Griffin.

The top two stories. Kendall Jenner at center of Blake Griffin, nasty custody bell. Kendall Jenner addresses rumors that she's pregnant with Blake Griffin's baby. It's like, I want basketball stuff right now. Oh, my God. Hey, and then you'd be putting Tristan with them? So they got the, right? She's a Kardashian.

Oh, we're on to something here. Oh, boy. We're on to something. There we go. So Tristan's fine with being. there and DeAndre is fine with going and playing in Cleveland and trying to win a title. Wow. Oh, well, Kevin, I'm glad that it's 2018.

We're still together on Tuesdays and I will talk to you next week. Happy New Year, Crescent. Happy New Year and everybody listening. Looking forward to doing this with you, man. It's going to be fun every Tuesday. Thanks to everybody that has been listening to us. Hopefully we'll have a great year this year. And go give us a rating and review on iTunes and we'll talk to you next week.

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