The Ringer NBA Show - The Klay Thompson–Warriors Era Comes to an End and Talking ‘Clipped’ With Sam Amick and Rembert Browne

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Logan starts the show off with his thoughts on Klay Thompson joining the Mavs, marking the end of an era with the Warriors (01:08). Then, Logan and Raja are joined by The Athletic’s Sam Amick to discuss Paul George to the Sixers, potential Lakers targets, what Golden State does next, and more (13:19) before opening up the mailbag (55:07). After, ‘Clipped’ writer Rembert Browne joins to discuss his work on the show, what it’s like working with actors such as Laurence Fishburne and Cleopatra Coleman, and what he hopes viewers take away from the series (67:11). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guests: Sam Amick and Rembert Browne Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Eduardo Ocampo Video: John Richter Social: Keith Fujimoto Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Y'all, it's the Midnight Boys. Poo-Bee-Boo! And we're opening up the kitchen again to talk about the Bear season three, returning to Hulu on June 27th. That's right, the Midnight Boys are taking over Prestige TV. How you feeling, cousin? Cousin! New restaurant, new takes, new ups, new downs, new season. I'm wearing to go, Chuck.

That's what I'm talking about. Make sure you plug in to the Prestige TV feed. Van and I will be talking about every single episode. of the bear. That's June 27th on the prestige TV fee. Logan Murdoch of the real ones. We have a great episode for you coming up with myself, Roger Bell, and the god Sam Amic.

We recorded that at 9 a.m. Pacific time before the big news that Clay Thompson will now be a Dallas Maverick. He has signed a three-year $50 million contract reported with a player option to complete a sign and trade between the Warriors and the Mavericks. And it ends an era of one of the greatest players to ever grace a Warriors uniform

and one of the greatest players in Bay Area history. Not the way that most people in the Bay Area thought that this was going to end. I don't even think it's the way that Clay thought this was going to end. I remember I started covering Clay in 2017. as a member of the San Jose Mercury News as a beat writer. And I remember every time Clay Thompson was asked about whether he wanted to go somewhere else and play basketball, maybe the Lakers, where his dad was a long-time stalwart on that team, Michael Thompson.

He would always say, no, I'm a warrior. I love the Bay Area. I'm a warrior for life. But I think what we're starting to see is what a player wants doesn't always jive what the organization is willing to give and you know this offseason

Clay Thompson wanted more than anything was respect in his eyes you know he saw how he came back from those multiple injuries and really

was a catalyst for the 2022 title coming back from an Achilles and a tour in ACL after he won three titles with the Golden State Warriors. He thought that we saw the Jordan Pools getting paid, the Andrew Wiggins getting paid, and most recently the Draymond Green's getting paid. And he wanted that too. He wanted that respect. And even though, you know, the Warriors will make the argument, well, hey, we offered you two for 48. And honestly, are going to pay you more year over year.

than what you're getting now from the Dallas Mavericks. That wasn't enough for Clay. And, you know, honestly, if you're Clay, you can't blame them. Because he is one of the pillars of this organization and will forever be a pillar in this organization. It's a sad day for the Bay Area. But I do get why it happened. Clay Thompson that is going to the Mavericks isn't the Clay Thompson that you will see in highlights today. That's just not the case.

He played well last season, you know, average 18, shot it near 40% from three-point range. But anybody that looked at him over the last two years saw that he, you know, he has lost the step. So I'm really curious to see what version of the Clay Thompson that we see when we see him on the Mavericks. And this honestly feels like a Dallas Mavericks move, right? And I know we have a lot of Dallas real ones here, so I don't want to necessarily make. you feel sad, but this feels like, you know, when they got Lamar Odom in that trade a few years ago, they were coming off a championship, coming off a big, a big, you know, title run with a postseason or going to a finals, and then, you know, they go ahead and they double down by picking a name

for the sake of the name, right? And on paper, you would say that, hey, man, the Mavericks need shooting. And Clay Thompson is one of the greatest shooters of all time. But if you watched Clay Thompson play day in and day out at Chase Center last year, it wasn't the same one that, you know, we were accustomed to seeing in the Bay Area. You know, he got benched a lot, struggled at times, even when he was getting, you know, force-fed the ball by a lot of his teammates. It was a frustrating year for Clay. And you could start reading the tea leaves at the end of that, that disson performance against Sacramento in the playing game that, maybe he won't be back.

Or a lot of staffers, even when you ask, like, there was a lot of, I hope Clay comes back and not necessarily, I think he's going to come back. And then you see his representation and the Warriors weren't even talking as the Warriors went to go pursue Paul George. and other players before Clay. And again, this is a guy that always had that, not even just with the Warriors, but always had that chip on his shoulder

because he felt like he was overlooked. He was the 11th pick in the 2011 draft. A lot of teams passed on him. And Clay is a guy that wants to feel wanted and wants to feel part of something that he's built. And if there was any level of, you know what, let's let bygones be bygones. let's try to make this work again.

That was thrown out the window when the warriors went to go pursue Paul George, even when they may or may not have a real shot at actually getting him, which we will get into in the episode. But that really hurt Clay. And you could see why he wants to leave this team. And it's also yet another crossroads for the warriors, as you see this dynasty descending, right in front of our eyes.

They, Mike Dunleavy, who took the, the job from Bob Myers when he left last year, hasn't had a good run so far. You know, he is defined by one of the franchise pillars leaving.

And Clay Thompson, he is defined by the trade that he made for Chris Paul, trading away Jordan Poole, a young asset, and not really getting anything in return from it, just a waste,

season of Chris Paul that did not result in even a playoff birth. And then doubling down on Jremont Green when you had the opportunity to trade him, giving him four years $100 million with the player option, Clay sees that and hurts him. And now we started the offseason with the Warriors trying to make deals to keep themselves in contention or get back into contention alongside Steph Curry. And now he's a 36-year-old future Hall of Famer who's staring down another season where does he make the playoffs?

Do the Warriors make the playoffs? If they do in a Western conference that's just incredible right now with young teams in Oklahoma City and Minnesota Timberwolves and Denver Nuggets go down the line. There's so many more teams that are that'll eat the Warriors lunch on a nightly basis that are now occupying the West. It's tough. Oh, it's tough. This is how the league works. This is how dynasties work.

And Clay Thompson leaving is just, it stings a little more, you know, because at least the Warriors could have, if they couldn't win a championship, at least they can go out altogether, which is a race. in this league. But this shows how the league works. And it's going to be, this is, the spotlight is on Mike Dunleaving to see what he does with this, see how he can lead this group going forward. But it's not looking great right now. And I remember, you know, covering the 2022 finals run for the Warriors. And you've got a sense that this was going to be their last best shot at it. And they knew. And even in that same breath, they had another opportunity to make it back to the mountain top. But, you know, things happen, right? You know, you see Draymond getting his emotions getting the best of himself with his own teammates and on other teams. And, you know, that really

stifled a team that probably got to 150 games last year. And now you have this. And it's a really sad day. and it's something that we're all processing in the Bay Area, something I know Clay is processing. But I'm curious to see what it happens with him in Dallas. Playing on a team that went to the finals, but I still think I could take Oklahoma City's roster as they continue to build and grow older. I still take that roster on paper over this Dallas team.

and still take a look at Denver over this Dallas team. You know, this Dallas team from last year is a beneficiary of winning on the right side of the bracket and avoiding a team that was heavily favored to meet them. So they have a lot of questions that they need to ask, answer. And I don't think Clay necessarily answers those questions. And they gave them a really good deal. They gave them three years, $50 million with a player option. but, you know, it's going to be also

be interesting to see Clay in another environment where Dallas doesn't know him. They're still, their fan base is going to have to figure out how they rally around him after all of the, you know, the battle scars. And, you know, Clay isn't of Dallas. He's a California kid. It was, you know, it was a West Coast kid born in Oregon.

Played his, played a Santa Margarita high school. Played in the Bay Area. There's a fundamental difference in California life that he's had to live in West Coast life. And now he has to adjust and play in Texas, that's going to be an interesting transition. And when he does have those clay nights where he's balling, they're going to be great. But he also has those other nights where his feaster famine with him. And when the famine comes, how is Dallas going to react to that? And you know, you could say that, oh, he's going to be, he's not going to be, you know, he's not going to be, you know, he's not going to be.

counted on it, have to be counted on in the way that he was in Golden State. But he's still going to have to play defense. He's still going to have to make big shots. He's still going to have to ingratiate himself with that group. And the feeling was he wanted to get a new start and he has everything that he wanted. But, you know, Clay, it seems like the grass may not always be greener for him. And he's someone that he needs a locker room to rally around him. And he's an organization to rally around him. And I'm curious to see how to Dallas Mavericks do that. And so, I guess in closing, my thoughts are,

this is a it's a tough pill to swallow if you're a Warriors fan or someone from the Bay Area and beyond. It's tough for the NBA to see somebody that's the face of a dynasty like this leave and move on. That's the NBA. And I do know this for certain. The Bay Area will always

embrace Clay. You know, that first game back at Chase Center whenever that that is, he'll get a standing ovation. It's going to be awkward. And depending on what he does with Dallas, it's going to be emotional. It's going to be a very awkward vibe in Chase Center whenever he comes back. But he's going to get the standing ovation as he deserves,

and he's going to get a statue in front of Chase Center when it's all set and done. You always get the impression that it shouldn't have happened like this. But here we are. Clay Thompson is a Dallas Maverick. I'm still getting used to that myself. That's what it is. And, you know, that's what we're going to end on. Clay Thompson, Dallas Mavericks.

That's weird. Show up next, real ones. Logal Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Howard Beck is somewhere. But he's not here. Remember Brown and a few. But first, we have a friend at the show in the building and talk free agency with us.

Sam, motherfucking Amick. What's going on, Sam? How you doing? Morgan, Murdoch, Bal. What's up, gentlemen? It's been a minute. Happy to be back. Always love joining your boys.

How is everybody? Slow motion today. Slow motion. Hey, listen. Roger may have made some prepod demands and probably just like tried to rewrite his, you know,

deal right before you got on the call. He did some Paul George business today. He did some Paul George's business. There's a lot of business being conducted, man. I'm not jelly. I'm not. jelly. I just want to say this. Before the pod starts, whatever I might say, let me preface it,

it's really not jealousy. Like, it's not. It's true appreciation for people getting to this bag, but this is some wild shit. Would you care to, what's the first deal before we get to the deals that just, that piqued your interest. No, no, no. No, I'm like, I think in fairness, if I'm going to be honest,

it was when I was sitting there in the airport yesterday on my way back from Atlanta and someone showed me the young fellow from the Lakers. Max Christi. Yeah, that deal, not hating it all again, but that's the one that was like- Four years, 32 million. Yeah, that's the one where I was like, man, I got to look a little deeper. I got to look a little deeper into this, man.

And good for them. Not, not salty at all, but it would have, you know. Sam, that's pretty dumb. Sam, Raja has been, has been double-dutching his way into trying to, trying to convince themselves to get a 10-day deal with somebody, just somebody. I was going to say, I was going to ask, like, Roger, when for you was the point of no return where the last thought left your mind about let me get

back in the gym and see what I can do here. Yep. It's actually... Are we there yet? No, we're way past that. That boat sailed a decade ago. I was in Cleveland when I was working with Griff and Trent and Kobe Altman and there was a time where we weren't playing great. We had not gotten

J.R. Smith or in Mon Schumper yet. So we had a huge hole kind of in that space. And there were kind of grumblins about how long would it take you to get in shape? X, Y, and Z. So I actually started working around the lunch hours and in the wait room to try to get myself together playing a little noon ball with the coaches.

And that, that was, I wouldn't have been any good at that point. But the year after that, it was clear that I couldn't play basketball anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. That's tough. All right, let's talk about basketball players who can't play basketball at a high level. Ooh.

2024. I'm not even going to go. I'm not even going to. I'll try to give my transitions back, Raj. I'm sorry that it had to go on your head. But anyhow, let's talk about Paul George. So over the weekend, you know, the athletic has done a really good job over the weekend and reporting out this free agency.

But, you know, we got from the point in the beginning of the Paul George, sweepstakes, whatever you want to call it, where in the pre, I guess you call it, the pre-agency where, you know, he's, he's dabbling with maybe he's kind of warriors curious. The warriors and him are kind of circling each other and seeing what's going on. I do have some thoughts, and I don't think that how, I have some thoughts on the deal in terms of, like, it's one-sidedness and when it was reported out. But, like, how do we get from Paul George's pre-agency to, you know, maybe the Clippers, they could maybe figure something out?

under the second apron to now he's going to the Philadelphia 76ers. What were the things that led? And based on what you have heard, how we got from pre-agency Paul George, figured his things out and seeing if he wants to stay in L.A. or maybe he come up to the bay into going into Philadelphia, where he's going to join Joelle and Beat in Tyrese Maxie. So, I mean, to me, guys, it's a good old-fashioned staring contest where, you know, where Paul won.

I think the Clippers questions like his willingness to do what he did. So there was this widespread belief that because of the way Paul came back to the Clippers, you know, from Oklahoma City. And that deal, people always kind of gloss over like Sam Presti and Paul had an understanding that if he wanted to relocate, that Sam would help him. So Sam kind of facilitates that deal, gets him back to his home region, you know, grew up in Palmdale. For years and years and years, I always remember I reported when he was in Indiana that Paul was, you know, the quote was hell bent that one of the people close to him said he was hell bent on playing for the Lakers. He was a Lakers guy. But then it ends up being the Clippers. But I don't think the Clippers believed that he was willing to go to the East Coast, whether it was Philly or Orlando.

You know, anybody who goes to Clippers games, it's not really hard to see the human component, the family component of Paul's experience in L.A. You will see relatives coming to see him after the game. You'll see his family. He really enjoyed living in the city. And I think what they were counting on is that when push came to shove, he wasn't willing to walk. And so, you know, he obviously made that choice. The Clippers would not come off their stance where, you know,

they were so restricted by that second apron in terms of the luxury tax that the way it was put to me by a Clippers official was that we can function like They're not happy to see Paul George go, but they can function like a regular team again from a roster construction standpoint. All those tools that you lose. What's the plan for the Clippers in the immediacy after this, right? Because on the roster as it stands now, we're talking on July 1st at 930 in the morning Pacific time. Now they have Kauai Linder under contract who is, you know, injury prone. And then they have James Harden, who has had his struggles in the postseason that are well documented.

And then they had Kevin Porter, Jr., who has also rounded out the roster with Terrence Mann and Derek Jones, Jr. What is the plan going forward with? Because on paper, that doesn't seem like the team that can compete with the Denver's of the world and the Timberwolves of the World, the Oklahoma Cities of the World. What is the next shoe to drop for the Clippers, if there is one after this Paul George's situation is finally ended? I don't know that they have clarity on it. The only high profile name of kind of any repute that I think is on their desk and their radar today, that honestly I don't think they're going to wind up landing is Clay Thompson. So Clay is navigating his situation appears that, you know, that his preferences are Mavericks and Lakers.

you know, it seems like a kind of a neck and neck thing on that front, but there is mutual interest from, you know, the Clippers and Clay. So we'll see where that part goes. From there, I mean, like always, I'm sure if you broke into the front office and looked at their whiteboard, they'd have a bunch of names that we'd find super interesting. I don't know all those names. I just know that there is a relief that came from, you know, that they are back in the game again with this different optionality.

Now, Logan, you hit on the most important part. When you have an owner like Steve Bomber, when you have a new arena opening in Englewood for next season, this was not the plan. Like Steve wanted to complete his hostile basketball takeover in L.A. To sway Lakers fans, his direction, to have a better team than the Lakers. You know, the arena, as you guys know, is like a block away from the forum. And it was just such kind of a ballsy move, no pun intended, to try to, you know, to do what he's done these last couple years, this was not the picture that he envisioned.

Now, that being said, where it got uncomfortable is like, even if you brought Paul back, let's go ahead and like, raise your hand if you had that squad as a top three West contender. I certainly did not. I lost faith in them, the health stuff, the,

you know, the unreliability, if you will, you know, that squad didn't get the job done. And so now they've got to pivot. That's, well,

look, for me, that's what it boils down. to, right? Like, you could bring Paul George back and everybody in this, in this world of, you know, you guys are retaining what you have and making another run for it. As Clippers fans, think that's the best thing for your team. But in reality, the best thing for your team is not good enough to win a championship. Right. Like, it's not. So, you know, that's a hard pill to swallow, especially with that second apron. But behind closed doors, I mean, I have to imagine that you keep

using the word relief that they are sitting around. And while it might sting that he got out of there, there are moves that can be made now in a way that, I mean, at minimum, you know, get you a look at something that you weren't going to get when it was Paul, George, Kauai, and James Hardin. Like, we've seen that. And you're going to tell me they were injured a lot and we haven't really seen it, but that's it. You saw it. Right.

So, you know, that's a really tough spot to be in, but I'm with you in that there's got to be a sense of relief, at least with some people in that building that now you can go out and do some things. Well, especially, Raja, because the Sixers just to quickly follow, like, the Sixers, I do, I love the move for Philly. I think it's the only play they had. I just, part of the reason you guys were nice enough to wait for me as I was late to the pot today. I was late because I was right in a column trying to share a few thoughts on this deal.

And I endorse it wholeheartedly from the Philly side, but that's because they didn't have a plan B. There was nobody else on the board of Paul's Calibur. And you got Joelle and B, the former MVP, like, who's always going to be kind of looking at greener pastures with good reason because he's that talented, even with all the health history. Like, Joel is one of those guys that you've always got to make sure you either put a team around him or you move it. It's one of the two. And so I love it for Philly, but if you're the clippers, you're like, you know what? You go ahead and pay Paul George $60 million when he's 38 years old.

Like, we'll see how that looks on the back end of the deal. You know, we got to wait to see how that part transpires. But yeah, I do think there's some relief because the clippers, it wasn't just the second apron. You could tell when you got Kauai agree into a three-year deal, James Harden agreeing to a two-year deal. They wanted to show respect to these older players, but they were not willing, obviously, to go to those lengths and pay Paul at that age. There's a question I do want to ask you. Stay on Paul George for a second. We'll get to Clay in a bit.

But I want to talk about, was there any other teams before? because the timeline of Paul George making this was he either could have opted out of his contract, which he ended up doing or opting into his contract and trying to get a trade worked out and get an extension with another team. One of those other teams was the Warriors who reportedly wanted to give him a full max. My question to you, though, Sam, is how serious were those talks between the Clippers and the Warriors? Because on the surface level, it looks like, why would the Clippers? if, you know, at least their publicly stated mission is to win a title,

why would they help someone in their division, right? And from all the T-leaves that you hear, it seems like the Warriors were saying, we're probably picking up the phone like, hey, what can we give you for Paul George? And the Clippers, and Paul George seems to be interested. What can you give it? What can we do? How can we make a deal? And the Clippers are like, eh, that's probably not going to be the play.

from your, am I correct in thinking that, that this was probably a one-sided thing with the Warriors, probably coming to the Clippers and saying, hey, guys, let's make a deal. And the Clippers are like, we're not going to help you. I think you're close, Logan, but they were engaged. But I think the price tag was really high. Like, I stumbled on another scenario that I thought was pretty informative to your question.

So Denver legitimately took a look at the Paul George situation and were made aware of what it would take to bring him to town. And the problem, which is similar to the warriors, is that, okay, you decide, all right, you know what, we can do four for $212 million. We can, you know, swallow that pill. But now on top of that, you know, and that's a tough pill to swallow, let's be honest, now you've got the clippers going,

okay, cool. So that's phase one. Now phase two is we need, you know, your young prospect. We're going to need some picks. Like, we're going to have to empty the cupboard. in order for us to want to do this again because it goes back to their i think their lack of belief that paul was truly willing to walk they were putting that bar really high in trade talks with teams and the warriors are no different where okay you're going to give paul the max but let's talk

about comminga or let's talk about moses moody uh can we get a pick in there you know like and again that's a division rival that makes it even tougher so i don't think the Clippers level of interest was through the roof, but I think it was real. But again, their payroll had been so wrecked that even those, a lot of times they would look at pieces coming back in a sign and trade. And even those pieces, even though they weren't as big

as a Paul George contract, they were problematic because every contract was getting them closer to the danger zone, if you will. And I think, again, to go back to Raj's point about the relief on the Clippers side, I think at the end of the day, for them, it was just a cleaner out to go the way they went. Let's pivot to Clay Thompson really quickly. Me and Roger have had our thoughts that are very public on this podcast of what Clay should or should not have done during this negotiation or lack there of one, right?

Because it really wasn't much talk after the season between both sides, the Warriors side and Clay Thompson's side. And there were a lot of scars from Clay Thompson. And it seems like at this point, his pride is going to end up making him take less from a team, right? Even if it's a sign and trade going to Dallas or if he takes, I think the Lakers, I think the Lakers, I think the Lakers mid-level exception something like $12 million. And he could have gotten from the Warriors at least something upwards of $20 something million, $20-something million dollars, way above market rate if they got back to the. table. But where are, where is, where is Clay right now in this one? Where do you think he is leaning to? Because it feels like on the surface, Dallas can't give him the most money and most bang for his buck with the sign and trade. But the Lakers obviously is bought that is there. He grew up

a Laker fan. There is another nostalgic pool that is taking him just the prestige of playing with the Lakers. Where is he right now as we sit at 9.41 a.m. Pacific time. I mean, I would love to know exactly where he's at in terms of his head. I don't have clarity there. I do find these particular candidates or suitors so interesting in the context of Clay Thompson. So this hit me last night, and Roger, this has some threads from your past life with the calves. It makes me laugh that on one side of the fence, you've got Clay considering a Maverick's team that just got buoyed by one Kyrie Irving. you know, Kyrie with his kind of renaissance year, finals run, you know, a lot of reasons that a guy like Clay should want to play with Kyrie and obviously Luca.

On the other side, you've got the other guy who Clay and the Warriors used to bust in the finals quite a bit in LeBron James and the Lakers. And knowing the Warriors well, the only reason I bring that up, and Logan, you've lived it is like, you know, that Warriors Cavs rivalry was so real and so raw that I would love to, if you ask me like, what over a beer conversation, would you want to have with Clay right now? I would just be like, listen, I don't care what you're going to do. But I want to know, like, do you really want to play with LeBron? Like, because you are so competitive. And that was so personal during all those years. I wonder how he sees the LeBron side.

But then again, Kyrie's on the other side. You know, I mentioned the Clippers earlier. You got Ty Lou coaching that team. You got like six degrees of calves coming for Clay's services right now. The Intel, at least as of now, if I had to give it a frontrunner status, I feel like Dallas is out there in front. The part where I have a hard time truly believing that is, again, Logan, you've lived this, is Clay is such a vibe as a person and his boating lifestyle.

Yeah. And his love of the bay, it's like Dallas is landlocked, you know what I mean? And like Dallas is hot as hell. And I was just there during the playoffs and it's humid. And it does not scream Clay Thompson happiness. You know what I mean? Just from a non-basketball standpoint. That part, I don't know what percentage of his calculus that stuff is.

But part of me is like, Clay, like go to L.A., be living on the beach, have a pier for your boat, just be up and down the coast. So in that regard, I'm dying to see what he does here. I will say, friend of the show, Sean Marion, lives on a lake in Dallas that looks very much like an ocean just for. Okay. Fair. Fair. I don't know that you can see. I'm going to the wrong spots, Roger. Yeah, me too.

I mean, I've never been there either. I just seen it on Instagram. Sam, you said something that was interesting. You're talking about having a beer with Clay and how that rivalry was like that intense and whether he would want to play with LeBron. Logan, you said 20-some million versus 12 million, right? Like someone in that headspace that might be willing to take that at this point to, leave somewhere that he's had that much success sounds like someone that's really

scorned sounds like someone who you know like we talked about it last pod it's probably deeper than I even alluded to if you're if you're talking about taking that much less potentially to leave a place with that much history feelings are heavily involved in that world Sam I could make a case for why you would play with LeBron sure do you know what I mean so like I just found that it was a really interesting point I think that's kind of your middle finger to your old buddies right yeah yeah yeah like fuck you we're out yeah so that I mean, it's just really fascinating.

And it's real. So I wrote like in late February, this piece that I honestly felt pretty good about, talking to Clay about his adjustment to the six-man role. And in that story and reporting-wise, we all have these moments where like, in hindsight, admittedly, I regret not being more direct with some of the information that came my way at the time. I had one paragraph in that piece that talked about how the relationship between Clay and Warriors owner Joe Lakeb had been strained throughout the season. And I kept it kind of vague and it was deep in the column.

And honestly, we're all human, right? So part of you was like, man, the Warriors are trying to make this work. I don't need to jam them up right now. But like the intel at the time was like, damn, Clay is pissed. You know, like, because it goes, you know, way back farther than the offseason. From an ownership standpoint, there wasn't much, if any, communication throughout the season. And there wasn't any sense of like, hey, we know that you're not thrilled with last summer and the idea that Draymond Green got four years for $100 million, and we only came your way

with half that. But there was no sense of like, trust us, we're going to make this right. There was none of that. There's no messaging. You know, Steve Kerr had his own relationship with Clay where they made that work. And so I don't want to, you know, mischaracterize it and say that it was all throughout the organization. But above Steve, and I think above Mike Dunleavy, like, it wasn't going to be. good and that stuff mattered a lot and there was confusion in clay's camp about why they were playing

it this way now in hindsight it feels a little bit like maybe ownership you know already knew that they were going to be saying goodbye and and so what do you do when you already know the end is near you maybe disengage a little bit but you know the feelings are hurt raja i think that's the point i'm trying to make and and i think it's pretty raw and this is a guy that the part where i feel bad for clay and i've certainly never been in his shoes as an elite athlete but what you constantly hear is he's really, really struggled to reconcile with the injuries that just took two years of his prime away.

And that's just something that, you know, he's talked it through like crazy. It's been front and center for years, but he is still not over that, and he's still, to a degree, sees himself as that guy from before. You know what's tough, sorry, Logan,

but you know what's tough about the Clay situation? Like, I've never been Clay Thompson either, but I had my own, you know, kind of riddled last couple years of a career that I could maybe draw a reference to. And mine, you know, while I wasn't a Clay Thompson talent, the injuries kept me close to what I was, but just far enough away from it where I wasn't as effective, right? And when you're that close to what you think you always were, it's really hard to see it.

Everyone else sees it. But you just think it's right there, right? And so I only say that because Clay, you know, it, since he's been back, hasn't been the same, but man, he still can play. Still really good.

Yeah, it's not like he fell off a cliff in a way that you would have to say to self, hey, I just don't have it anymore. And that's the tough spot to be in where it's like, no, guys, look, I am, I believe it,

I see it, and I'm one game away from it. And that one game just, it's never coming, right? Like, you're just a different person, but you're not, you haven't fallen off the cliff either. So, you know,

it's a really tough spot to be in. For a lot of pros, you see it happen towards the end of those careers, man. Like, it's, it's tough. And it sucks for Clay in the situation with Golden State where there are so many people to take care of. Because usually, I think in a perfect world, you take care of the Clay Thompson.

Sure. You know, but like. And I mean, in the Warriors' mind, it felt like they were, right, taking care of Clay at this day. Or like they did. That's fair. That's fair. One, they did, right?

Because they did give him a max when he was injured and he didn't even play through those two years when he was injured and they still signed him. And then even on this two-year extension. if it'll be a Roger talk about this all the time, bro, we're giving you over $20 million, $24. Last year was like 24 a year, and he turned it down, and we're giving you better and longer-term offer than most guys will give, most teams will give you.

Why are you being so angry when we're taking care of you? The reason is because the dude from the Lakers gets $8 million a year. What's the way? I started the show with it. Max Christy. Yeah, but that's the reason. Like, that's the reason. I was, I have it on my phone here, Roger.

I thought Isaiah Hartinstein was the guy you were going to come for, $87 million. I like Isaiah, at least with Isaiah, like, as I watched, I saw it. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know it's 87, but like I see the value and someone else might put a bigger price tag on that, but I see what you do that way. Yeah. And I don't mean to take it back to that. But that's why, right? Like when you're when you're clay

Like you're like 20 Yeah cool I get it But like dudes out here are getting Eight for like Very limited production But then you go look crazy out here Roger when back You go to the Lakers

And Max Christy's making $8 million You just making $4 million more than him And when you could have like all That's what it's That's why it's a tough thing To do a negotiation with so much emotion Right like he's purely doing this off of emotion Pride is crazy on this one

I'm gonna go like Warriors Cosplay on you, Logan, like, because you made the point about Clay and like, hey, we took care of you two for 50. And this is definitely Intel in terms of what you hear. Like, I think his response to that is like, okay, Joe, like,

you gave Draymond 4 for 100 after, you know, he's been suspended countless times where you can, you know, make an argument right in front of me. Yeah. Yeah, like you make an argument that like he helped you win titles, but he also helped you lose them at the end multiple times.

I've been a good soldier. Yeah. I think that's it because it was such a brotherhood and a personal experience between Steph, Draymond, and Clay. I think not to be dramatic. I think for Clay, it's kind of a, you know, heartbreaking to be the one who just gets iced at the end. I think that's probably how he sees it.

And if it's at the expense of Traymond, who, I mean, I'm sure their relationship is, I don't know what their relationship is right now, him and Clay, but I know that they have had some strife in their relationship over the years. Like, that has been a foil for Clay for the last few years. years or throughout their time, right? Like just Draymond being Draymond. And for that guy, like, Steph is the almighty, right? Like, if he gets paid, whatever, nobody can say anything.

But like, the nuance in those two's relationship, Clay's and Draymond's, definitely would play a point. I can see that. I want to go touch on the Lakers because talking about Clay, we're talking about the Lakers. The big elephant in the room is LeBron, who basically is going to find leverage no matter where he's at, basically told the Lakers, yo, give me,

I will take a pay cut if you find somebody on this specific list. I think the bar might be on that list. Clay Thompson's on that list. Jonas Valanchunis, I saw was on that list, but he's gone.

We're about, what, five days until Team USA starts, so I'm guessing that's the hard deadline. What is the status of that? and status of LeBron in this context, and how long is he going to give the Lakers the rope to find a player before he says, no, I'm going to get this whole bag back,

back to Briggs truck. I need the backs right now. Yeah, I mean, our Lakers beat writer Yovon Buh, I think had pegged it at a, like you alluded to, Logan, like the beginning of Team USA training camp, which is on the sixth that LeBron wants his contract done by then. That list of players you mentioned, obviously some names have fallen off.

You know, we'll see if they can land clay. We'll see if there's a Demar discussion. You know, DeMars, the Bulls don't look really interested in winning right now. So I think, you know, he's probably looking elsewhere. The unique part of LeBron's situation, obviously, he's like, I went from a week ago reporting that LeBron and AD both were really, really, really won the Lakers to go all in on draft week. Put three first rounders on the table. go get Dejante Murray, go get one of these guys. You know, and all of a sudden, JJ Reddick and Rob Polika were talking about the G-League team and leaning into player development and, you know, math and all this stuff.

Like, this is not what Roger's face. Rogers giving a steak look. Steak look from Rara. But here's the plot twist, Roger. Then Palinka knowing that LeBron probably wasn't happy says, all right, buddy, well, how about this? I'm going to take your son at the 55th pick, you know. Like, what are you going to say now? Calm down.

So I think that probably, you know, bought them a little bit of patience. But, and we always talk LeBron because he's LeBron. But, man, like, don't forget. Like, I know AD got a few years left on his contract, but they got to keep AD happy, too. You know, like when they fired Darwin Ham, I was told that part of the consideration was, you know, concern about AD being upset. You know, they know that he matters a lot. but I don't know who they're getting

this is making Rodgers blood boil. This is making Rodgers blood boil to hear these. No, no. No, I'm sorry, Sam, but like I'm just, well, that made my blood boil with the like, hey, we're going to lean into player development and get into the G league. That did.

That was just whatever. But I'm just thinking about being in a front office at that time with LeBron contract and a small list of players that he would take less for looming on a six-day window of time. Like how frenetic that all. office has to be. Like, that's got to be a stressful work environment. I mean, the meetings I always

found, sorry, this isn't about me, but I always found like being in that front office when, when decisions had to be made or around trade deadline, the amount of meetings, right? Like, I'd go into work, there'd be a meeting, be 12 of us in a room, boom. I go back to my desk, there'd be another meeting in like 30 minutes. Like, we'd have like nine meetings a day. That's just got to be a crazy workplace for the next few until they figure something out. To that point, I talked to this, correct me up, I talked to a front office guy

the other day. This was on day two of the draft. And obviously this is the first time they've had two days of the draft. And Logan, you and I have been buddies for long enough. Like, thankfully I'm not,

you know, rolling like this anymore. But back in the day when I would go cover Summer League and I would do eight, nine, 10 days in Vegas and probably stay out way too late

every single night. Like, you catch me on day seven day eight. Summer League, Sam, baby. Yes, I might have a nickname. They,

like, Like the voice is hoarse, you sound like death. Like this executive, who I talked to on the second day of the draft, and after all these meetings and after all this, you know, skull sessions trying to figure out how to build the roster, he sounded like Summer League Sam. And that part of it, I think people don't get to see behind the curtain. It's like, to your point, like the Lakers group is just frenetically trying to figure out

how to make something happen there. That bananas. I'm talking, Logan, meeting, right? Yeah. Break, break. Everybody goes to their desk. General manager, president, whoever's making it, call to the owner. 15 minutes later, meeting, like all day long until you're going to get some sort of resolution

and we can actually swing at something. Never mind if that works, because if it doesn't work, now you're taking a start, you're taking a meeting again to start the process over with another candidate. Like, it's incredible. Jesus. So, Sam, who was the guy that LeBron is leaning towards as a guy that's like, I want him. There's the list of people,

but, like, who was the one that, uh, that Lebron is, is leading towards like, please like go get him. Go get this person.

Who is who is, who do you think is that guy? I'm admittedly kind of educated, guessing, if you will, I think it's Clay, um, but it was Dejante Murray before.

I mean, that was the one. And this is where, again, it's tricky to report on because these guys are people. They are humans and they're also like, and this is such a fluid process. Well,

and they're like pieces on a chess board too. So like, but Austin. Reeves was at the center of that discussion, meaning that everybody in the league knows that like if you want, like, if there's a guy that you're trying to get from the Lakers in the deal,

it's Austin Reeves. And they have treated him by and large like he's untouchable. And I don't think there's that face again. Ever since T ever since T. Ever since THT disgraced the Lakers with his presence.

Rajah with every, every ancillary piece that is deemed untouchable with the Lakers at that particular time, Roger just gets fucking flustered. Well, and this is really like, it's nothing personal toward him when it comes to his teammates. At all. No. But that is,

that is the absolute fork in the road for the Lakers. Everything is about Austin Reeves. Like they did, and I was told they did not get in on DeJante Murray at all because because, you know, they didn't want to give up Reeves. Well, it's, but,

also you like we talk contract stuff right we joke about this guy making too much that guy making too much to the lakers credit they got austin on a below market deal and they see so now they really have this out and i do kind of get it i don't know that i agree with it but they have this out of like his upside is still here he's not there yet the value is there you know so if so if you're going to compare djante murray to austin reeves it's not just a matter of which one helps you more it's a matter of which one helps you more within the context of their respective contracts. And that's where I think there has been a disagreement internally. Well, yeah, that's the part for me, the disagreement internally,

because I was talking about you can't straddle the fence when you have LeBron singularly. Right? You certainly can't straddle the fence when you have LeBron and AD. Like, I don't see the path to, like, protecting the assets and the value in a contract. and swinging at the type of players that you need to take swings at to pair with these dudes to win a championship. Like, that's too fine of a line to try to walk.

Like, you have to pick a lane. I think the problem, though, is that the counter from the Lakers side would be, Roger, we still get PTSD from the Russell Westbrook experience. You know, like that's, I think that's informing this power struggle within the Lakers is the idea that it has not always been, you know, a dictatorship, if you will.

I mean, LeBron has had his say at times. And the Westbrook move is a tough mark on his record. And I think something that to this day is playing a part and them, you know, figuring out how his voice is going to be heard. That's fair. Now, if this is a, yeah, if that's a, if that's a LeBron request, then you guys are taking that approach to a LeBron request. I understand that.

I think I might be speaking more in the world of, and maybe it didn't relate to this conversation of like, if we've identified that that Dejante Murray as a as a group as a collective we've identified that Dejante is the player we need we can't let Austin stand in the way of that now if it's you know the in the other world where it's a LeBron request I obviously get that a little bit more but I think what I'm saying is is when when they decide that this is and this takes to me back Logan I say this all the time is what's your what give me the roadmap like I'm old school man like we're about to take this cross-country,

laid a map out in front of me, dog. Show me the highlighter. Where are we going? Like, I need to see it all and then make moves accordingly to get me to that. And so if we've identified a player that's out there that can help us do that, I don't know that I'd let Austin stand in the way of that personally

and it's no disrespect to him. Right. A couple other things that I do want to ask, touch on, that I haven't seen, like, just I'd have questions for, you know, we talked about the Paul George stuff and all of the Clay Tops, knows have been the storylines of this,

of this free agency thus far. But what about what's next for the other teams? Like I'm thinking about the Timberwolves and Carl Anthony Towns. Are they going in or New Orleans with Brandon Ingram? Like is there any traction on maybe a trade for either one of those guys, right? Because we all know in the Timberwolves situation,

their cap space is just not exist. And Towns's contract is mammoth. What have you heard on that end? and also in New Orleans with Brandon Ingrid. So not a lot on Minnesota. I'm cheating and looking at our coverage here on the site. My colleague, John Krasinski, has got Kyle Anderson likely leaving Minnesota. That's not for sure yet, but signs indicating that they will end up losing Kyle in free agency.

And that, you know, like you said, Logan, their payroll situation is about as loaded as anybody in the NBA to their credit, you know, even with their own. ownership drama with Alex Rodriguez and Mark Lorre and Glenn Taylor. They appear willing to be in the luxury tax, but it seems like Kyle, who is a pretty important role player for them, is maybe headed for the exits. I'm blanking on, they had another move that maybe you guys can fill in the gaps on that I'm forgetting. They did make another transaction. Now, New Orleans is interesting because, you know, they do the Murray deal, which I like

for their group. They have such a unique approach offensively, like a bunch of, different playmakers and ball handlers, not really an alpha from a point guard standpoint, but a bunch of guys who can do it. I think Brandon Ingram is likely headed out, but that's not for sure just yet. I mean, there is chatter around the league that there's talks at the moment, even in my backyard. The Kings have been tied to Ingram. I don't know who else is in the mix at this point, but it feels like, especially after his pretty underwhelming finish to the season that that ship has sailed and they're probably not going to find common ground contract

wise. So I think change is coming with New Orleans, but they're in a good place where they, you know, I mean, listen, if you would have told them a couple years ago that Zion was going to turn a corner and look like a guy that they could keep investing in and keep building around, that they'd be pretty happy with that. And not that he's proven it just yet, but, you know, there's enough momentum on that front that I think they have a direction. Okay, okay.

And one last question before we get you out of here. We know Clay's gone from the Warriors. I know that they have, they're going to dangle Andrew Wiggins. They're going to see what the best he could get out. Maybe if the right deal comes out, I don't think there's even a player out there for the Warriors to part with Kaminga with. But I'm sure they're still active, right? Like, what is the, because at this point, if you ended the,

if you ended their offseason tomorrow, it would be a very underwhelming, ooh, it would be terrible. That would it be a, it's already pretty bad. From the Rogers' fan standpoint. Yeah. The Warriors fan base has collectively given Mike Dunley v. The Rogers' stank face. What else is out there for the Warriors to do?

Because it is looking very grim right now for the Golden State Warriors. I should have answered that phone call that was coming through. That was an esteemed Warriors beatwriter, Anthony Slater. He probably could have told me what the Warriors were doing. Yeah, I don't. have their roadmap to use Raj's. I don't know if they have their roadmap at this point. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's not good. And really, I know this is premature, but in NBA media, like the unofficial algorithm for when we talk about a team needing to consider trading a star player, I know it's sacrilege to say it because it's the warriors and it's Steph Curry and it is till death do they part and he's going to finish his career with the warrior. years. I'm just saying that if you take that emotional component away and you just look at, you know, the information on the board, if their offseason ended today and there was nothing

else, I think it is very fair to say, are you still in the Steph business forever? And again, I think we all know the answer like they are. I really think they are. But I do wonder where Steph's head is going to be at, not from a, oh, is he going to ask out standpoint, but just a a disappointment standpoint. You say goodbye to Clay, imperfect though he may be, you know, and kind of not the guy that he was before.

And you don't get Paul George either, right? You don't get a name to come back to, you know, that part. And then, you know, after the last few off seasons

when you flip Jordan Poole for Chris Paul, who you end up waving. So basically, you just did a salary dump. There's no, there's, I'd be pissed if I was Steph.

Even if, but Steph doesn't want to, like, well, let's go even farther back. We really go at the front office, right? Like,

we, We always, I don't know why, we kind of let the warriors off the hook on this one. Like, I remember walking, this is the end of the season two years ago. Warriors lose to the Lakers. Yeah. Walking out of the building and trying to catch Clay Thompson. And I asked Clay about Bob Myers possible exit that summer. And his quote, I believe, was like, without Bob Myers, there's no warriors.

Like, that's all there is to it. And he was rocking with Bob, you know, in a major way and just kind of talked about how like he's a huge part of their culture. Like the Bob, if you go from the Bob Myers exit where Joe Jacob didn't want to pay Bob, it's just true. Like the money was a factor there. And they found a way to kind of part ways respectfully and kind of affectionately. And it wasn't publicly all that messy. But that still was like, and I don't know that Bob wanted to continue the job, but it's a little bit like with Clay. I think respect along the way.

way was in question in terms of the way the organization was handling a situation. And, and, you know, and then next thing, you know, Bob's not there. So to bring it back to Steph, you know, Bob was always an absolute security blanket for Steph. He's the guy that had talked to Drayman when things got sideways. He's the guy that made Clay feel loved, you know, and it's not to disparage Mike Dunleavy at all. I think Mike has had some really good moments in his early tenure. But if this is the way the summer ends for the Warriors, and then certainly from

Joe to Mike on down, their fan base is going to be pretty upset. It's going to be tough in the Bay Area. Yes. Yeah. It's going to be a tough summer in the Bay. You're about to be coming up to sack a lot, Logan. No. Yeah.

It's going to be, if the tea leaves are reading the way I think it is, and a few years it's going to be tough in Sacramento as well. So it's going to be tough in Northern California. You're breaking news. That is, uh, that is Sam Amick with the Athletic. Thank you so much, buddy. See you in Vegas. It's going to be very, very hot.

Can't wait to see you. Summer League Sam. Up next, much to Roger chagrin, a motherfucking mailbag. And we are back. We got our guy, our newest producer, Eddie. How you doing, man? I saw a 619

area code on your phone number. So I think that we're rep in San Diego big time daygo vibes out here. Okay. Okay. You're in the South Bay. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Okay. So we got some questions. This is your debut. We got going.

What's up, Eddie? Try not to mess up, but let's go, let's go. All right. First question of, guys, I love the pod. I laugh a lot listening to you. Nobody else combines analysis behind the scenes inside and on the MFMI chemistry like the real ones do. Here's my idea.

It's more fun than consequential. Opening night should always be a double header between the finals champ and the in-season champ and then the two runner-ups. So this year, we'd get Laker Celtics and then Dallas, Indiana. It gives a bit more half to the in-season tourney without going crazy on it. generally produce some interesting matchups while still a saving the finals or conference finals

rematch for Christmas thoughts i like that i can dig that i mean in a yeah i really like that uh in a world where you're trying to give some more meaning to the in-season tournament um that that that does that um i i think most people like to see a rematch from from champions from the past year, whether that be for the, for the whole league or for the end season, for a lot of reasons I like it. I mean, I, I like the fact that he's an avid listener. We had a few folks, Logan, just sidebar this weekend when I was in gyms in Atlanta. We had a few folks, real ones me.

Real ones? Yeah, so, thanks for listening. Hey, man, I love Atlanta. I just want to say, I love Atlanta. Atlanta has a very special place in my heart. Sat out to Lithonia. I lived there for a few months. It was really fun.

Love it there. The question The only tricky part I think is a good idea The only tricky part is if the in-season tournament champion Just wasn't like they just fell off a cliff And weren't necessarily good or relevant by the summer You know like there's a world where a team just gets hot

In the beginning of this season And it just sucks like I think we had a really really good In-season tournament this year And we just got lucky because the Lakers are obviously always relevant And the Indiana Pacers are up and coming But like You know

Say if like we just talk about like the Kings, right? Say if the Kings made it and they weren't like the sexy team the next season, right? Like I think that would be a weird thing for ratings-wise for networks to want to get behind. But I do like the idea overall. All right. Next question is from Ricky. This one's a bit far-fetched, but let's listen to it. All right.

What do you think of Beale for Ben Simmons? Both a gamble at this point, sons get a playmaker and get good defensive presence, but obviously lose shooting. Nets gain a score and someone not. afraid to lead next to bridges. Do a little side bet who plays more games, which player contributes more. Well, I am not touching Ben Simmons.

I am not, I am out. I am out. And I was a defender. Like, two years ago, you could pull up the file, man, digging the crates. I was on here, like, defending. I am not touching Ben Simmons. No.

Fuck that, bro. Dog, that's not even a fair strike. I hear you, Rick. Does not want to play. No. I feel you in practice, but, like, also that would never work because Katie already played, Well, he was already on a team with Ben Simmons,

and that didn't work out too well. And the second thing is, I don't think Ben Simmons even wants to play basketball anymore. I don't think he even wants to do that. Why would he want? If we had this line of dominoes, like, that all had to fall, like a few have already fallen for the suns, right?

Like, we're all waiting to see if the last one's going to fall or if we're going to start stacking them back up. If you trade for effing Ben Simmons, they're all, they're gone. They're all down. All dominoes are falling. We're out. Roger, what would you do if Ben Simmons is a son? And I just send you to Ben Simmons' son's jersey.

What are you going to do with the jersey? Because that's what I would. That's a troll, Logan Murdoch move right there. Just like, yo, it's a true troll. Look. I mean, I wouldn't appreciate it. I'm not into Jersey burning or anything like that. And I, and honestly, like, all jokes aside,

I would love to see Ben Simmons, like, bounce back from wherever he's been and pick up the career and look like that's the problem trying to do that bro like right he's getting fits off at the med gaoler right now like thinking he's more important than he is um all right let's stop uh last last question eddie who do who got for the for the people last one from jacob in the past year we've seen the rapid culmination of j reddx post-nbba career as a voice and mind of the game and it had me thinking about how one good year can change your life. Do y'all think this move will change out desperate teams higher in the coming years?

And who might be the next great basketball mind to follow the podcast or broadcaster coach pipeline? I personally think Roger would be fantastic as a broadcaster if that's something he would want to do. I mean, yes. I really appreciate that. It was Jacob. Roger is great. Yeah, Roger could have. Negative.

Roger had a chance. Roger could have been the next head coach right now. But he didn't want to take, he didn't want to go on the Brooklyn staff. It could have been right there. No, he couldn't. No. Now, listen, first, there's no chance that I could do that. Just way too much goes into that.

Like way too much goes into that. And that's why I always say, you know, maybe some people are cut out for it. Clearly there have been a few success stories with that. But overall, by and large, with no experience, hopping out of like what we do, even the most prepared podcaster or, you know, analyst, even the most prepared, you have no idea what sitting in that headseat and running an NBA franchise entails. It's a huge responsibility.

Who would be the next one to come up out of the podcast? I don't know. The next wave of guys that go into like the booth, I think. Like as the CP3s retire, I don't think he would want to necessarily coach. But as those guys retire, I think he's a name I would look at. don't know that he would have any interest in it. Trying to think of other guys that would do that. It's funny.

It's usually like a role. It's usually a role guy in some way that has the real success as a coach, you know? I don't know. I know certainly I couldn't do it. I don't know. C.J. McCollum's not a terrible name. Yeah. Trying to think of other dudes, man.

Throw names at me, man. Like, you know, PJ. Jaylon Green. Tucker. No. No. No, not Draymond. I don't know about PJ Tucker either, necessarily.

I don't think you would have to want to do it. Yeah, one is, I'm thinking of, like, it's a fine line because, like, I think I'm too emotional to be an NBA head coach. Like, I see Draymond in that way, too. Like, you've got to really be able to have that competitive edge and fire, but not not have that seep over and have your man, your manhood. challenged by someone and you react. And I'm a reactor sometimes in that space.

You can't do that as a head coach. You know what I mean? Like you got to really be able to channel that. I think Steve Kerr does a really good job. Hyper competitive. Like you could tell and we'll bow up. But that's not his first instinct all the time. He controls it.

Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. It's a good question. Not I, though. Yeah. I could be a, you know what I'm good at? Honest to God.

I'm a good assistant coach. Yeah. I'm a good assistant coach, man. Even in high school, I'm a better assistant coach than I am a head coach. I know that. It's not a problem. What about TV?

Did you do TV again? Yeah, I never did the color. I had a couple opportunities. I had opportunity to be the TV guy for the Oklahoma City Thunder, but I was going to have to move to Oklahoma City. My kids were really young, and I chose not to do that, so I went to work for CBS. But I would like to do color.

I think I could do, I took a couple opportunities when I played if I was injured to hop on color, like our local broadcast and do color for a couple games. And I enjoyed that. Like, I'd like to do that. And my family's getting into a place now where, you know, as some of the boys start to leave, like I have more time to travel around and chase them. You know, it's always been about family for me, Logan.

So I've always kind of tried to keep gigs where I could be at soccer practice or football practice or, you know, helping my wife get kids to school. and that's kind of, that's been my priority since I retired. Podcasts has been great for you. It looks great on you, bud. Phenomenal. Logan has been great for me.

Thank you. See? You know that. You know that. You know that. You know that. So listen, one of my buddies, one of my buddies,

you guys, fuck you, Roger. They can't know that we actually like each other. They can't know that we can't know that. One of my buddies ran up on me. And one of my buddies ran up on me, avid listener. in Atlanta.

And he was asking me, you know, he was talking about his nephew, who's a really good basketball player, we were talking about, you know, my sons and stuff like that. And then he got to the pod, and he said he loves the pod,

he listens all the time. And he asked about our backstory and kind of how that came to fruition. And I told the story again about Bill just putting us on a phone call together. And he was so surprised that we'd only met, like, once. I'm, that was crazy, though,

was like, if people knew how awkward our first conversation was, it was like, yo, Logan, like, shut out, out, Troy. It was like, we stretched, we stretched, like, 20 minutes out of a conversation that needed to be five minutes. And it was so awkward. So if you would have just go based on that first conversation that we had in July of 2020, I would have not, I would have been like, I was, that, the call actually made me more nervous,

the initial call. I was like, how are we going to do this? We didn't even do a test pod. No, our test pot, bro, this is what people don't realize. It's like, this is what the magic of our podcast is. First off, the first magic is of this episode is that it's 54 minutes in, and Roz is still here after saying he would only be 30. The second of this is, the magic is what I love about this podcast is that we're growing,

like, every, on the listenership and everybody sees a friendship growing in real time. Like, literally, like, that's the craziest part. That's the wildest part. also fuck you because they can't know um no bro also it's weird people like the pot and we're at the stage where it's like we don't give a fuck of part of the episode we're just talking i was playing pickup the other day and the person that was guarding me just kept looking at me and then he looked at me he was like as he's guarding me you do a podcast huh i'm telling you it's it's i've said this i've said this i've said this a million times man Like it is so strange and so like rewarding in a way to be standing in a gym, same scenario, and have a dude looking at me and pointing at me. And I know this space well, having played in the NBA, you are about to ask me if I'm Roger Bell, the former NBA player.

And when the words coming out of your mouth are real one, I mean, I... It's fucking fire. If I wasn't as brown skin as I am, I would be blushing. Like, it's just like really cool. Yeah. It's so cool, man. All right. Thanks to all the real ones. Love Fest to all you guys. A little housekeeping one episode this week. There will not be a Friday or Thursday episode,

but we're going twice next week. And then honestly, it's summertime. So we'll fucking see. We'll give you guys updates as we go. Rembert Brown is up next. Ah, all the shits. Bye. Okay, back here with Rumbered Brown. Writer producer for the Polarizing series Clipped. let's just start from the beginning. Okay, so me and you, we have our yearly talks, our yearly vint sessions. I'm going to tell you how Clipped came into my life. We have our yearly vint sessions. And I remember calling you at 7 o'clock in the evening.

I think it was sometime in the fall or last year. I remember calling you, and it was dusk. It was dark. It was weather-beaten. Anyway, it was very dark. And I remember calling you. And you said, yo, man, I'm driving back from Santa Clarita because I am on set with Lawrence Fishburn and Ed O'Neill. And I'm doing this series called, didn't even have a name, I don't even believe.

I think it was the Sterling Affairs. We just had it as the name of the podcast for a lot of years. Okay. So it was the Sterling Affairs. And then I'm like, whatever, I want to talk about what I want to talk about. But by the end of the conversation, it was, what the hell is remember doing? How do we get from? Tell me, give me the gist of this journey for you before this conversation that we had a year ago, immediately before and then where we're at right now.

Give me, give the listenership from then to now. Okay. So, dear listenership, I'd say 2021, I got an email from. The woman who is the creator and showrunner of the show, Gina Welch, who mentioned to me that in building the idea for the show, she had read a thing that I wrote with Wesley Morris, my colleague at Grantland in 2014. we traded emails immediately after the tape and everything came out,

two black men trying to figure out what it all meant, two black men that neither one of us wanted to write the essay speaking on behalf of all black people. So we were like, let's just talk. As we tend to be tasked to do. Yeah, yeah. Like we spent a weekend. Like I'd write a long email. I'd send it to him.

I'd go have my Saturday. He'd pop in, send a back. This is a piece on Granland called The Owner and the Owned, a discussion about Donald Sterling. Yes. And, you know, I kind of thought in 2014, that was the end of my relationship with Donald Sterling. You fast forward a couple years. You remember, you remember Quibi? Yeah, or do remember Quibby?

There was a dock on Quibby called Blackbald. Yes, I was in that dock, actually, if you remember. I'm the guy that is standing right behind Doc Rivers at USF the day after the recording comes out. It's a classic Logan Murdoch, Grimbert Brown, IMDB overlap. We love those. And Wesley and I were talking heads in that dock. And I was like, that's fun. I love hanging out with Wesley.

I love talking to Wesley. Again, was like, this is the thing from my past that I'm talking about, moving on. So when I got the email, I was super excited. I had been wanting to do something in the scripted space for a while. And it went from kind of being maybe a consultant on the show to ending up in the writer's room, which was during COVID and fully virtual, to the writer's room ending in 2021. And then in 2022,

I heard back from Gina telling me that the show got greenlit, that we got Lawrence Fishburn, and she wanted to know if I wanted to co-write the finale with her and be a producer. It was like eight things in one email. And they were all. Okay. So I was going to let, I'm going to let you finish your glorious soliloquy, but real quick, I think, I think you're, I think you're, you're leaving out one little bit of

information that was also going on in your life around that time, work-wise, that you're simultaneously doing. I also had a, I had a full-time job at Twitter, which was, for those listening, Twitter, was a company that existed for a decade plus. Now it's called X. Yeah. I don't want to, you know. I'm not rehashing it.

I'm just saying just that what you were doing during that time. Like, how do you, I guess my question is, as you're leaving that out, is like, how do you live in both worlds at the same time? Not necessarily rehashing what was going on. I had, how do you do that? I had two tricks. So Twitter was like a, you know, 18. to 10 meetings a day operation, just going from one.

Regular nine to five. Just boom, boom, boom, boom. Sure. But when the idea of a room popped up, I was like, okay, I don't really know how I'm going to juggle this. So I just started putting blocks on my calendar at Twitter and just like hoped that nothing would conflict. told some folks. It was like one of those

need to know things like my boss's boss knew, but my boss didn't know. One of those. Yeah, yeah. You know, it makes me sound like a terrible employee, but I was also doing my job, but it felt too big of an opportunity to miss. So I

juggled both. And then when she asked me to be a producer and be on set, that's when I was like, well, this is Gina. I was like, I don't know how to juggle this. Set is not virtual. Set is going to a place where you can't hop on Google Hangouts.

Thankfully for me in terms of the show, week three of shooting is when Elon fired 4,000 people. So my schedule magically freed up. and I was able to be on set for the last three months, which are two and a half months, which was incredible. What does it like to be on a set like that? And also, you know, are you,

what is your role as you're on the set? Are you giving notes? Tell me your day-to-day role in this operation. What's going on on a day-to-day in Santa Clarita before you have to answer my phone call? my main role in the beginning was to shut the fuck up and to listen and watch and you know

I'm surrounded by people who have been doing this for a living for a long time so the idea of me showing up and being like nah I don't like that take do it over you know like that was not really that didn't feel like a recipe for success you know I think being on set, I was one of the three people that had as much institutional memory of the show as

anyone because I'd been involved since the writer's room. And so that was one way I felt like I'm useful. Like I knew the scripts really well. I knew the details that were important to us that someone else might think was just like a a random thing. It's like, oh, no, like, Chris Paul needs that water bottle. Like, it's not just, like, a random thing, you know? So that's when I felt, started to feel like, oh, like, I belong here. There was some, like, very real imposter syndrome, I'd say, for the first month, month and a half, because I'm just like, I don't, you know, hours and hours would go by, and I would kind of just be sitting there, like, should I be doing something? Should I be

doing nothing, you know, but as my, you know, as the weeks went on and I kind of started to see how other people were behaving, I started to kind of figure out my lane a little bit. How was it finding your voice in that way, right? Because I remember even, I kind of knew about this series through you, but not really. But I do remember you. still even you talk about the water bottle there was even stuff when you were like you would hit me and like say hey is this the part of the arena we need to show for players coming through right like for where's the player insurance at staples center is it here here how how would a player come through like as you're having to figure your Hollywood life out how is your old life kind of helping educate how you see send yourself into Hollywood, you know, or like make how, you know what I'm saying? How do you, how do you use your, your past to, you know, make your future in that way? Well, you know, I think, you know, when I zoomed out and saw all the people involved in the show, I understood that my

basketball and NBA knowledge was useful. Someone that used to write about basketball a lot, someone that knows a lot about basketball. But also, I'm not you. You know, I'm not, and I also hadn't been in the thick of the NBA in some years. And so there were two things that were really important to me just on the like, hey, you were remembered and you were participating in something that people are going to see. I wanted to make sure that I wanted to make sure that the basketball that we were showing felt accurate to someone that follows the NBA. And I also wanted to make sure that the way we were using the internet, the 2014 internet, was true to form also because I was also.

That was like the peak of me online, probably, at that time. And I wanted to make sure that this didn't come off fake or false. And so, so yeah, but I also understood where my limits were. And, you know, there was a great deal of the show that was just research, research, research, going back to 2014. I think people think it's like, you know, It's just the casting, but it's, it's, it's everything is what people wear. It's, it's everything.

And so, yeah, as the, as the shooting and filming, even into post-production went on, I felt like the, my background was becoming more and more helpful. You spoke about the internetification of this show, right? and not only the show, but the story itself. It's so interesting to say it's a very 2014 vibe because, you know, it makes us feel older to even say something like that, right? Yeah, it's like a period piece, but it was 10 years ago. It was 10 years ago, right? And, but it very much feels like 2014 in the way that this, the characters in this, and this

show consume news, right? And it kind of makes me a throwback because I remember, this was like at the beginning of my journalism career being kind of in this story, not like necessarily breaking news or anything, but just being an intern and like this story is popping. I remember working at a at Nike and San Leandro, the Nike factory store in San Leandro and having to like try to push back my start of work time because I had to be a USF for Doc Rivers' first comments after this, right? But I remember just how on how just.

it was this new technology, it was Twitter, it was this overall ecosystem of everything had to be so fast. And we had, you could literally be on your phone and be entertained for 10 hours straight. And this story was a very internet thing in that way because you were on your phone so much looking at everything that was going on. How much does you want to integrate that ethos into this show? Because everything is Instagramable and not in the way that Instagram is now. and that it's like ad driven and things like that. Like, no, this was like if you had a pop and meme, you would just post it to your personal page without anything.

There was no branding associated with it. I think you guys used that really well, that error really well. What was it like? What was it meant into the decision to make it the internet a character in this show? Yeah, that the internet as a character is something that we, in the writer's room, kind of decided like, yes, this needs to, the same way Los Angeles is a character, the internet is a character. These are things that we are leaning on and showing.

And, you know, when you go back to 2014, like, I went back and scrolled and looked at the way I posted on Instagram in 2014 and tweeted in 2014. And, you know, it was just anything that was. was happening that day. You know? Just like, oh, saw a friend. Boom. Instagram.

There's a lot of beauty in the, in the, in the, and how that it's, there's a lot of wild stuff obviously that Instagram. There's a beauty in the, just how we used it back then, right? Like there was no. We were just, we were just posting because we didn't know what the hell we were doing. We were just posting about everything in our lives. And I feel like there was a more intimate look at the world, right? It was a realer look at the world.

Now it's a different way. And it was, you kind of saw. that and how you guys presented Instagram to this piece. Yeah. And then there's also the other element of, you know, TMZ, this was like a on the, on the earlier end of TMZ. And just the idea of something that we were really interested in was just like how at that time people were really starting to understand how stuff spread. Yeah. It was a seminal moment in TMZ time because you have, obviously, Michael Jackson's passing in 2009 as an inflection point for TMZ, but this was another kind of inflection point for TMZ.

Like, I remember, like, you know, Manti-Tayo. Like, that was the early TMZ thing. But, like, the thing about this story was that it wasn't just, like, after the tape, there were, like, follow-ups and this happened, and this happened, and this happened. in a pretty tight amount of time. And so it almost felt like you couldn't log off. And that's something that I think the public experience. And we also wanted to show how that was something that the characters in the show experience, how that was obviously a thing that complicated the lives of the players.

You know, that was a thing that made Doc's life insanely complicated and hard, you know, Donald's like, oh, there's a tape out, let's delete it. And it's just like, dog, that ain't how it works, you know? Like, there's no amount of power and influence that can make this go away. Right. And that's a shock to him as a, as someone who has been rich and white his whole life that he can't. What a shocking thing for a white rich person to have to deal with? Like, you almost feel sorry for him.

It's like my whole life. But like, you're also thinking, like, he's. he's paid off all of these lawsuits for housing discrimination and all these things that he just feels like it's it was so interesting just the turn of the the century type of vibe social media had because also has no idea that he thinks no is this is another lawsuit or this is something else that I'll just have to like financially deal with yeah make a go away make a go away um and yeah like even something that I really love that was put into the show is that scroll that we have, that kind of, you know, it's like a transition tool.

And, you know, it's like it, you know, the memes, just the, it's really the, the, the, the, the, the, an early high point of Twitter becoming just like the one place for everything. for all thoughts and opinions. And even though it had been like that for a couple of years, it felt like things were really traveling fast in a way that they hadn't. And also it felt it's kind of that era of Twitter becoming this place that it's like this group think almost, where it's like, you know, people would be like, hey, Twitter family. You know, like, people are like, I'm talking to everyone.

Hey, tweets. Like, I'm back. But it was almost this idea of, like, on Twitter, we, this collective, vague, we get to decide, like, who is good and who is bad, what is right, what is wrong, what's funny, what needs to get out of here. And so there's just so many things about this incident, which would have been an incident at any moment. moment, the combination of the incident, the playoffs, and the internet, it's it's, it's, it made for just chaos. You and I are kids of John Singleton. And I know a seminal, a seminal movie in our lives is Boys in the Hood with, uh, he was Larry then, he is now Lawrence Fishburn. what was it like knowing, you know, watching all of his movies and being able to be on a set with Furious Stiles?

It never got old. I never got used to it. Even when our rapport got more comfortable, you know, sometimes I'd just pull up on him. He was reading some like really. What's he like, man? What does he do? What does he like? he's been acting his whole life.

It's what he knows, is what he loves, and it's what he takes seriously. I felt like he set the tone for everyone, both with, like, professionalism, and also, like, being of the biggest stars and also being, like, very warm. And every man still. Yeah.

You know, I see a black man that I've looked up to, and I'm just like trying to, I'm trying to make a connection, you know. And he let me do it. You know, he'd read in a book. I'd just be like, yo, what's that book about? And we just, we just chop it up, you know. I loved it. I thought, I thought there was something about his.

presence that elevated, you know, you have all these guys who were playing the players on his team. And, you know, if I'm a, if I'm a younger actor and Lawrence Fishburn is going for it, we all got to go for it, you know, we got to, we got to, we have to show up to set, knowing our shit. And so I really, um, it was surreal, but it also, made me feel, you know, as someone that wrote words that he is going to say out loud, I felt confident because, like, I know how black men of a certain generation talked, you know? And so I felt, it felt good to hear him believe in the dialogue that he was giving. And obviously not just me.

Like, we were all writing stuff for him. But yeah, he is a Titan. He's a giant, you know, like I grew up on Denzel, Lawrence, and Sam, and Wesley. Like, these are, these are, these are, these are, they're like our dad slash uncles. Yeah. And like furious styles. Yeah. He was a, he was, he stepped in as my father.

He was like Uncle Phil. Yeah. You know, like these are, these are like fictional characters who are amongst, among the most important men of my life. And they're not even real. And so the people behind them become so important. Yeah, and it's interesting you said that about just like him being the coach of the set, right? It's setting that tone, considering he's playing a coach on a basketball team and he's to set the tone, right?

He's playing Doc Rivers, who is such an interesting figure in the league, right? Just a fascinating person. but then you go and it's one of the interesting things that I had like heard just even researching for this interview is that Lawrence Fishburne doesn't watch basketball, right? So he has to come. He's coming to a character he doesn't know, which in some ways is easier I'd imagine. But he's having to everyone is seen in real time how he becomes Doc Rivers. And I know Doc was a consultant on the project. So I do want to hear about his role when you're giving this answer.

But how did you see in real time Lawrence turn into Doc? What was he doing? How was he doing it? And what was, from your vantage point, what was Doc doing and helping Lawrence get ready to be Doc Rivers? So, Doc and Gina. would talk. And he'd answer questions. He'd tell stories.

Super important stuff that I think helped us inform the show and his character. I remember learning that Lawrence went to Doc's July 4th party. Yeah. And I think it was like when they met. Yeah. He tells the story of he went with Winston Marsalis and they were just chilling. and which is also a great. Which like.

It's like amazing. I don't think people like people don't really know how cool that is. Like B and Rembert are trying to get an invite to that party right now. Anyway, so he's. That's the next chain I'm trying to be on. Like went in and Lawrence. Like when are you getting there? Like I'm not trying to be there too early.

Yeah. What should we go together? But you know, like I, this is kind of also connected to the like knowing basketball thing. Like sometimes I would I would see Lawrence do little thing like just like stuff that you know from playing

basketball. It's less than watching basketball playing basketball. I remember this one moment where it was like a practice scene and Lawrence his his instruction was kind of to like

you know while the players were coming in like shoot the ball up and catch it. That thing that people do. And it just didn't look right. It didn't look like the way a guy who played in the NBA and then was a coach would do it. And so I had a little conversation,

I like had a little whisper to the director, Kevin, Kevin Bray, Kevin talked to Lawrence, switched it up. Boom, Lawrence's Doc Rivers again, you know. So like some of it was just like, we want to make sure that we're not putting Lawrence in any position to not, for the viewer to like forget that this is like, or it's like, oh, that's not Doc, that's Lawrence, you know. But I felt like he came in with a really strong sense of who Doc was as a conflicted black person. I felt like he knew what to do with that. And, you know, as we're shooting and going through,

I just felt it get, and the, you know, the actors who were the players are starting to gel and just the camaraderie around, like, once the Clippers team really started to mesh and gel, I really felt like it's a classically trained actor, like, really doing a good job. And so I loved watching him

work and be curious and ask questions, like not think that you know everything because you're Lawrence Fishburn. And so it felt very both collaborative, but also like, you know, that's Lawrence Fishburn. Like, like, we also need to put him in situations to just let him cook. I mean, yes, yes. Also, he's Doc, which demands you letting him cook, you know,

because Doc, that's all he does. He's cooking every day. My man. What was Doc's presence on there? Was he ever, was it just talking to Gina? Was it just, was he ever, was he ever on set or anything? No, he wasn't around, which I thought was fine. I felt really confident about the doc portrayal. Yeah. Once you said it was Lawrence Fishburn, you told me it was Lawrence Fishburn playing a dog. I'm like, oh, it's fine, don't worry about it.

It's okay. It's weird to think that, that, that Loris Fishburne was born to play Dog Rivers. It's weird to even think that, but it is, but it's a fact. You know, the other really cool Lawrence Doc thing to watch was when the scenes that we have with Doc and LeVar, which are like, you know,

Lawrence playing Doc, LeVar playing LeVar, which is like kind of crazy because you're watching it and you're like, in this room is Lawrence Fishburne and LeVar Burton, two of the giants, like, of my lifetime. But it's also, as Doc Rivers, talking to the version of Lovar Burton that lived in his building and goes to the same sauna.

And Lawrence alone was surreal, but seeing those two take a break from shooting in robes because they're shooting a sauna scene just like in the corner laughing. I'm like, I don't need much more from this life. That's awesome. I'm thrilled to have played a part in us getting LeVar and Lawrence together. That's incredible. And talking about like, you know, what is like to be black, you know. And LeVar, like, saying stuff that LeVar, like, real life LeVar wants to say. Like, LeVar has some, you know, there's two more episodes.

But, you know, LeVar's got stuff to say. And it was very cool to be able to put LeVar in a position to really kind of take a leap in terms of like what, you know, the public persona that he often has, which is this, you know, Mr. Rogersy safe person. It's like, well, what's it look like if we play? into that. You know, we're recording this a week before the season finale right now. Feel free to spoil anything, you know, but by one of the things that I was really impressive was in episode four where you guys position, or you guys do a flashback scene with Doc Rivers going back to the 92 Rodney King riots, right? And now, every series tends to have this, right, the origin story of a character. But I thought this was really, really,

really interesting and connected connected a lot of dots to what was actually going on in Doc's mind during the 2014, during the 2014 stuff that was going on with Donald Sterling. So what went into the decision to put him back to the 92 riots and his role there? There's a, there's a scene where like he's, he's driving back from practice because Elgin Baylor cancels practice. He has to go back home, I believe, to bring. Brentwood or someplace that is he's buried to a white woman, has a very mixed family, and is going through what it's like to be a conflicted black man in all of these different worlds coming together and combusting simultaneously. It was really good. Honestly, the best episode I've seen of the series so far, in my opinion. What went into the decision to write it that way and to bring Doc's past up in that way? So I think

once the connection was made not just that Doc played for Sterling, which in itself is an interesting thing to carry through the show, understanding that this relationship has been gone. This turmoil is decades deep.

The fact, that he was playing for the Clippers when the riots happened felt like there's something there. I think the other thing was we really cared about our Elgin storyline, which I think, like, you could make this show, there's a version of this show that does not have Elgin. Or is very, very muted. and Or acknowledges him in a little bit maybe something like a commercial on TV or something

but like she was there but you guys bring him into the fold and that always felt really important for us not to lose that because you really I think it helps

really under like it helps you really get who the Sterlings are it really helps you understand what the stakes can be for speaking up, which, you know, becomes such a cornerstone of what these players are trying to figure out. It's like, well, there's basketball, and then there's also what we feel in our hearts. And you have Elgin who went all the way. and it didn't and through certain lenses it didn't go great.

Elgin Baylor who worked in the Clippers front office and was a long time GM. And, you know, always Hall of Famer, you know, there's no business for Elgin Baylor to not be treated like anything less than an absolute all-time legend. And so I think the combination of wanting, knowing that in that flashback episode, that we were also going to be touching on Elgin. And, you know, for the show, you're getting the coach version of Doc

who's just trying to like keep everything together. You don't see, you see some of his conflict, but a lot of the conflict you're seeing is through the players. Doc's like, we have to push through this. But it's like, where does that come from? Where does that decision to lead this black team, this organization, be a black coach? Where does this inner turmoil come from? I think when you see, you know, Doc 1.0 and understand how he's being pulled between two worlds,

in a way that I find to be, like, very relatable, you know. You work at a company. The company does some wild stuff. You have to answer for it as a black person. What's wrong with your people? Like, what's wrong with your people? Why are they talking like that? But then on the other side, it's like, well, like, I didn't do it.

But also, like, I have a platform. Or maybe I should, you know, it's very. I think you guys did a really good job of like showing the confliction that a team like that would have in a moment like that because it's not as black and white as someone might think, right? Like these people also have jobs. They have families. They have, they have ambitions to win a title, right?

Like, I don't think people were. Like the team that was going to, the closest team to like possibly win the title. It's like, I mean, it's cruel. It's very cruel for it to have happened. The mental toll that it puts on you, right? And all those things. And I think you guys did a really good job. But one of the other things that I think you guys did a really good job with is just bringing empathy to a lot of the characters, even when you didn't have to.

Like, I think the show also somehow brings empathy, brings empathy to Vista Vianna, who we're going to talk about in a second. I really want to get your thoughts on Cleopatra Coleman, who was an amazing, amazing actress. and I think will be a star. Remembered for the people that aren't, that can't see this, has the V. Stiviano, what is it, the shade, the shade? The visor. The visor. The visor.

I take it with me. He takes it with him. You know, sometimes. So, so you guys do a really good job of, of really bringing empathy to seemingly all of the characters, which I think, the average person will be like, why would you bring sympathy to Donald Sterling? Well, you want to bring the entire. picture out, right? Like, you want to bring all sides of those things out. What was the, was that a, was that a,

an intentional decision that we are going to do this? I know on the Vista Viano side, there was definitely merit to doing that, considering how, you know, there was a lot of ways that she was treated back then that would have been put up to task now. And I'm sure it was then, but the, the voices weren't put onto the mainstream as much as that it would be right now. But, Was it a conscious decision to bring empathy to all of these characters? And what was the way you went about doing that? Yeah. I think we wanted to show the humanity in our characters.

We wanted people to wrestle with these characters, which I think that wrestled that wrestled. is realer when the characters aren't one dimensional. You know, when it comes to V, like V's kind of the intersection of all the storyline. It's like all kind of all roads come back to V,

so building her out felt felt mandatory. I think, you know, when I think about V, like V was ahead of her time. You know, V was an influence. like five, four years, five years before everyone else was kind of acted like V. You know, someone that just wanted to be famous by any means necessary.

That doesn't sound that crazy. Yeah, that doesn't sound that crazy right now. But back then, back then being 10 years ago, people were like, what is wrong with this woman? Like what is wrong with this crazy woman, you know, call her a hoe, call her, like all these things. things. And part of that was, part of that was a cornerstone thing that we talked about in the writers room, which is the show is about race, but it's also about power. And some of my favorite stuff that happens in the show is that, I think the relationship that the viewer has with someone like Shelly Sterling

because sometimes you feel bad for her because you're like, damn, like she really stuck with this monster and this who like cuts her out of stuff, all this other stuff, got this young girl,

all this other stuff throwing it in her face. But then there are other moments where you're like, she seems kind of complicit. And then there are other moments where you're very complicit to all of the things that Donald Sterling was doing with the housing discrimination and the lawsuits and everything she was.

But I think setting her up from the beginning is like, this is like a human being that got herself and kept herself in a situation. Let's let's show all sides of it. And Donald is, Donald is the character that enlists the least amount of sympathy or empathy. But nothing was gained by just writing him as an absolute monster. It's like, is he a buffoon? Yes. Is he racist?

Yes. But let's kind of, let's show how he got him. Let's show how he got there. And so I love that for the show. I also like it because it allowed the people we cast to like really act to like really show dimensions. You know, from episode three, we have the scene with the players, the very long scene of the players trying to figure out what they're going to do with the tape. Like, that's exciting because like we, you know, if you're like an NBA Twitter person,

And if you're glued to the NBA, you already have these preconceived notions about the majority of the people on that team. And so it felt, it felt, it was exciting for me to have super built out characters that also allowed actors to really dive into these roles. One of the people that, I want to stay on V for a second. Cleopatra Cohnman does a great job.

Incredible. of her, but incredible. We talked about Lawrence Fisburnt's maturation in a dock, but what was Cleopatra's maturation into V. like? What was it like to see her kind of become V. Stiviano on set right in front of your eyes? Cleo had a bunch of moments throughout shooting the six episodes where I feel like you could have heard a pin drop on set because everyone just wanted to watch her be this really complicated character.

And, you know, I think Gina did a really good job, even before we started shooting, of really talking to our actors about these characters. And I feel like they each ran with that, even, you know, the characters that, the three or four characters that we have that are fictionalized. Like, they went and, you know, ran with backstories and really came to that with an understanding of why the character was important to this show. And casting views so difficult.

It's just like, but it also felt like the show rests on the actress being the right person. and we all knew we had the right person immediately because she just had such a, she had such an interesting kind of take to her. You know, she's outside of her house playing with turtles saying she wants to be the next president of the United States. Like that's just like real stuff. By the way, swag off the roof.

Incredible. That's what Biden needs to. Like Biden. But I was really in awe of her, and the show is filled with actors that I feel like, I hope this is a big break for them, because I felt like it's a lot of actors where this is one of their, if not their biggest luck.

It's a lot of black folk in this show that I want to be successful, and I'm very impressed by what they brought to the show. So, yeah, but yeah, Cleo rules. What is, what is, what's the last, like, we see the reaction right now on the show. It is on both sides of the spectrum. What are we talking?

Are we talking to Austin Rivers? No, no. I just know that it's on both sides. What do you want, what have you thought of the reaction and what do you want people to take away from this piece that maybe that they're not taken away from it? My number one goal is like I wanted people to make it to the end. Like I wanted people to watch the whole thing.

That was like, and I've had these moments as each episode comes out when I'm like, if they, people make it through four, I think they'll go, I'll think they'll go all the way, you know, and I've had these moments. But something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about is there's something about this incident, which is like, it's so many things, but it's also like a workplace drama. Yeah. It's also just like, I mean, we were kind of alluding to this. It's like, well, what happens when shit hits the fan at work?

You know, and suddenly you, like, I remember I worked at Twitter, George Floyd. summer. And next thing I know, like, I'm being asked to lead community conversations. Right. And, you know, it's just like these things happen. And there are, there is no blueprint. And there are no right answers. And ultimately, the show's not about like, did the players do it right or wrong. You know, the reality is they put all of their eggs in the basket of like winning. this is the doc plan, you win and then you stand up for what's right. The problem is what happens if you lose. And that's, you know, spoiler.

The Clippers did not win the championship that year. That's the only spoiler we've gotten out of this interview. Yeah, it's pretty good. I kind of kept it spoilerless. But there is an element of the show that I feel like is very relatable for a person of color who's ever been on the wrong side of a workplace issue. And that, that, that almost feeling of helplessness of like, what do I do? I want to do it right.

I want to do the right thing. Like, no one's like, I don't want to do the right thing. But what is right, it's often very confusing. And if we go back to 2014, you know, like, we're here. just a year removed from LeBron and the Heat putting their hoodies up for that Instagram posts for Trayvon. Like, you know, Kaepernick hasn't even happened yet. You know, we are still in like an early era of this generation of athletes and celebrities

speaking up and standing up. And so that always felt really important, which was like, You got to give folks some grace when these moments happen because there's there's typically not a clear answer. But I do think the question of like what's the worst that can happen from speaking up is something that I do feel like the show kind of puts out there on the table. It's like, you know, like there's this long list of things. that could go wrong if you say what you feel. Like, you know, you might be messing with the money, you might be messing with relationships, white people might start to be scared of you, and all this stuff.

But the reality is like, what's the worst that can happen to a person of privilege and influence if they say something? And thinking about what happens when the people of privilege and influence do say something, that trickles down to everyone else. That makes person X that works at Place Y feel a little bit more confident to call out something or to say something. So that's, in addition to all the other stuff, the entertaining stuff, the true stories of, you know, a lot of hard shit. Like that's something that I feel like really kind of transcends

the show and and and stays in someone's mind. Story about America. That is Rembert Brown, writer, producer,

the clip. What we got next? What's going on? What do you want to plug right now? Yeah, what's up next? What's going on? Um, what's next?

I'm finishing a book that, um, will come out in the future. You want to say what it's on? I got to finish it first. Okay. Okay.

I tried. I tried. When I come back to real ones to talk about clip season six, the JJ Redick coaching years, I will have more to say about my unfinished book. But it's fun to have a thing that's out for, you know, five, six weeks. and then, you know, kind of go back to your little hold. All right. All right. Well, I'll see you soon.

Thanks so much for coming on, buddy. Thanks, y'all. That is Rembert Brown, writer, producer, extraordinary. Clipped. Let's be 21 years and older, 18 years and older in D.C. And President Select States. Fan Duel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. The only problem called 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com backslats R.G.

in Colorado, D.C., Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont. Call 1-800 next step or text next step to 533442 in Arizona. 1-887-9-777 or visit CCPG.org slash chat in Connecticut, 109 with it in Indiana, 1-800-2-2-4-700 or visit KS Gambling Help in Kansas, 1-8177-1-817. 777 stop in Louisiana. Visit MD gambling help in Maryland. Visit 1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia. Or call 1-800-5-22470-7-0 in Wyoming.

Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline, MA.org, or call 1-800-3275-0-50. Or 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 18778-8-Hope-N-Y or text Hope N-Y in New York.