The Ringer NBA Show - The Knicks and Magic Are Going to Vegas. Plus, Do the Pelicans Hold All the Cards for the Trade Deadline? | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are here to provide their instant reactions to the Knicks and Magic moving on to the semifinals of the NBA Cup. Then the guys talk about Derik Queen’s historic triple-double and how the Pelicans should build for the future around Queen. (00:00) Intro (4:32) NYK-TOR(21:52) ORL-MIA (39:34) Derik Queen(55:39) Pelicans trade ideas Check out The Ringer's League Pass Awards here! Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle MannProducers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, and Victoria Valencia  The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me on this Tuesday night, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle, man, we have assembled for some hot Las Vegas cup action. Not quite Las Vegas. They're going to get there now, but we just watched two games, the first two games of the quarterfinals. That's where we're at. That's the one.

Rob, are you titillated right now? I'm a little titillated. You know, you know what? I could feel the tension. of the NBA Cup. You know, I thought everyone came out like a little antsy in terms of the execution in these games.

You could see plays where like five dudes were hitting the floor for a loose ball. It's not playoff basketball, Justin, but it's something. Yeah, I thought they were okay games. Kyle, first one definitely brought it. Second one, at the very least, had a cool court.

So that was different. Yeah, I mean, the energy was a little misguided. I think that's one way to put it. And it didn't live up to, you know, we were joking before the season that in our NBA meetings about the Cup. And at Summer League there, you know, Rob, you weren't there. You briefly were there. Maybe you saw this.

Maybe you didn't. But they had the NBA, you know, the Cup trophy out on the Concourse. Yeah. They had someone very seriously, stoically, standing there with their arms crossed, making sure no one mess with the Cup. And let me assure you, no one had any interest in the Cup at all. But this didn't reflect that at all. I thought teams were at least trying, even if the game.

themselves were a little bit sloppy and maybe didn't quite live up to they didn't ascend to that next level right but that's the kind of pageantry we need we need like a very stoic guard standing next to the cup trophy at all times who can't make any reaction whatsoever like we we need some of that for this oh perhaps like roped off on the side of the court and we keep cutting to the cup like after every quarter like this is what they're put like they do that for um the college football championship they just like have it on the field and there's usually like a mascot like the georgia bulldog will just be like hanging around, like sniffing at it. Actually, why aren't we doing the World Series of poker type thing where once you get to the

finals, you know, like the final table for the World Series of poker, they just have another table off to the side with all the money piled on it. Like, I think when we get to Vegas, dump that money on the scorers table. I mean, it can be fake monopoly money, but like, let's have some presentation. The money in cash, I really like that idea. Absolutely. We could have, we could have Huel and whoever it is from Breaking Bad lay on it. Or I was thinking a celebrity would be nice, a celebrity guard for the, you know, we could,

it could be a different person for each, each team or is George Wallace still, he's still alive, right, Vegas guy? I mean, he'd be a good. I mean, Kevin Hart is definitely available. This is the problem. Perpetually true, right? Yeah, Kevin Hart will do it. As soon as you say a celebrity guard, Kevin Hart will be one of the guards.

So let's be very careful what we wish for. He showed up over the summer when, Wembe was doing some sort of activation. clearly a sponsor at play, but he was like doing a one-on-one interview with Kevin Hart, and they were both in hot tubs. And that is where Wembe was giving his first quotes about like being a monk and talking about his all summer and the blood clots and all that stuff. The cold-tub show. It's so funny because the photo at the top was just Wemby and Kevin Hart shirtless,

just sitting side by side in separate hot tubs. So I don't know what was going on there. If that's not normal to you, I don't know what you've been doing for the last eight to ten years. We've just been devolving into that slowly until the frog has been fully boiled. Where did they get the tub for Wimby? Did they get the trough that they feed African elephants with? Like what tub can Wimby fit in? That makes no sense.

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or visit cpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. We respect the cup, I would say. We like the cup. I think this is where the game start to have stakes to them. And even in the second game where the Knicks kind of ran away with it, I thought there was actually kind of a nice little

petri dish because these are two teams, I think that are looking for this sort of setting to show who they really are. And I think, Rob, with the Knicks, that felt like they figured that out where not only the Jail Brunson play incredibly well, but like they bullied the Raptors in a way that you would hope for like a true blue like NBA finals competitor. I mean, just real separating the wheat from the chaff stuff. And you can see it in that second quarter in particular where I'm like, I don't mean to be hit since these are my Raptors that you're talking about.

Oh, that's right. We picked for the audience that wasn't around for last pot. We picked teams. Kyle unfortunately picked the Raptors. Rob did pick the magic, though. Kyle's team just wasn't cup tough enough, ultimately. Like I say it jokingly, but that's kind of what happened in the second quarter. First quarter, almost shot for shot between Jalen Brunson and Brandon Ingram.

Just phenomenal shot making overall from those two. Really fun to watch. And then you get to the second quarter and the Raptors just kind of let go with the rope. They lost their edge. The shot stopped falling. all of a sudden they were losing all those kind of like fringe battles 50 50 balls all of that stuff i don't know that they ever fully got it back like they just kind of lost their energy and from that point on the nix just had complete control of the game go i think if you're the raptors and you're a

raptors fan you're hoping that just the collection of talent assembled would be enough to kind of paper over some of the things that we had concerns about and through the first like what month plus of the season that bore out even if you look at the rankings overall they're still pretty high offense, still pretty high in defense. But tonight was a prime example where you just don't have the full compliment of guys. Like Barrett did not play quickly. He was out with an illness. Even Yakup Pertil seemed lurching because I guess he's dealing with his back, back injury over the past few games.

And they kind of played like a team that needed in a pretty much like a pissing contest with another East Giant. Like they needed the star power to keep up with a team like the next. Yeah. I mean, you don't want it to simplify, oversimplified at times. Like you hate to do that, but it does come down to. to, you know, sometimes even having four quarters isn't as good enough as good as having a dollar in a lot of situations. If you have a superstar, that's the thing that separates you. And the Knicks have more of those types of players than the Raptors do. You know, Ingram can ascend to that level

at times. And I think what we've seen with them is, I may have mentioned this on this show, it kind of reminds me, it's a little reminiscent of what the Knicks did with Randall a few years ago, where they had odd fitting pieces, didn't have great shooting, didn't make a ton of sense. But they had one guy that could consistently create advantage. And it was a pretty good passer in Julius Randall. And so you have this template, you suddenly have this one, I always called a silo. You just have this one avenue of production. And the Raptors had that. We were going through, we've gone through the process of the surprise. It's not as big of a thing anymore. And especially it's exacerbated by the fact like you were saying, if Quickly's not going to be there, if Barrett's not going to be there to get

downhill. You just, you lose all the shot making. And it just, you're straining guys that just look sped up. Like, Grady Dick looked really sped up all night. Poor Jakup literally lurching. His poor back trying to keep up with Mitchell Robinson, which are getting me into more of that. But yeah, they just, they just looked like they were just a little over-exerted for what they had. Yeah, they just got stuck playing too many weird compromised lineups. And this is a team where, like, their depth is one of their strengths, right? Even during this kind of swoon, I think they've now lost six of their last seven games, including this one. But, like, Like the depth is ultimately one of their stronger points.

The defense, as you alluded to, Justin, has been like more or less okay. The bottom really fell out on their offense over this last stretch. And that's where the reality check has been in terms of not having RJ for this stretch, in terms of Brandon Ingram not being able to deliver at just a superstar clip of efficiency every single night. And you see the cost of that when you go to trickle down and you look out on the court. And it's like Scotty Barnes having to do all this heavy lifting with a bunch of bench guys, some of who aren't even in the regular rotation,

and he just was a little overtaxed doing that stuff. And then on the other side of the ball, you have this Knicks team that's been in the trenches, fought through these kinds of games. Like they know how to work through the friction of really intense competitive games. And to whatever extent, this cup matchup was that,

they were just much more successful getting into their stuff and playing through it. I love the season that Scotty Barnes has had thus far, but he is popping in part because he hasn't had to do as much. And thus some of his versatility, particularly on the defense event, he's probably like, I don't know if we really need to go through the defensive player of the year candidates after 20 plus games or so after a quarter of basketball. But like he'd be high in that list. He just seems like a dog and like an impact perimeter guy in the way that like we all projected him to be for so long.

And part of that is he just hasn't had to do as much offensively. He's just getting these in between buckets. He's making things move and his passing has just looked really great this season. And as a result of that. The shots been on for most of the season. It wasn't on tonight. And so those sorts of things seem to be trickling down across the roster where it's like Jamal shed at a very good. game and he does fly around and wreck shit. But like when Jamal is, tomorrow's shed is like one of your go-to guys for a cup game, like then you're in trouble it feels like. That honestly was one of my takeaways, though,

is Jamal Shed is a guy. Like he's undersized and he's going to get picked on now and again, but I love the fight. I love what he was able to give them offensively. He's someone I trust in games like this weirdly enough, given his, you know, relative inexperience.

It's tough when Jordan Clarkson is just going to the well and going over top of you repeatedly. not ideal. I was like that stuff. Yeah. But I mean, this is the whole thing with the Raptors though.

I mean, they imported a lot of their talent and a lot of their draft picks over recent years have kind of fallen pretty flat. Barnes obviously in a class of his own. I think we all really like Colin Murray Bowles. We talked at length about him

probably more than probably anyone else in part because of the nickname war that we have, has ensued for whatever reason. We don't need to. That wasn't a war. There was no war. There was no conflict.

It was just quickly dismissed. It might still be waging. just like in the darkness right now. But like Jacoby Walter, I don't know what he is. Right now, Grady Dick has just been completely lost the past two seasons. I thought he would be an easy plug and play guys considering his size and shot making.

Kyle, like, did you think he would be just like a guy with a floor of a 3-&D guy? Or where were you on him going into the league? I've been trying to figure out what it exactly, it definitely warrants more of a deep dive to see what hasn't translated because it may be a case of his shooting sample was just not very indicative because of the types of shots.

I mean, that's a really frequent thing that happens. I always try to look, and like your guy, Jordan Hawkins, that we were talking about earlier for the Pells, who we'll get to later, these guys who hit a lot, just take an abundance of really wide open movement threes. I just, my working kind of hypothesis is that Grady does not shoot it super well in a phone booth.

He frequently just, if he's crowded, he's so narrow, his shoulders are so narrow. I just don't, I wonder maybe if it's not having a wide enough base or not good balance because he is a great shooter. I've seen him shoot the heck out of the ball. I mean, he shot something like 55% from three in transition at Kansas on a huge sample, but it's the shots and the speed in the NBA speed is a really cruel filter and it can, it can filter out really good shooters.

It does all the time. Especially he's had moments in his career, I would say, especially last season where the jump up was looking really good from two, right? like he was curling into different kinds of shots and it was working. But maybe there is something, Kyle, about that combination of speed and the load to get to an NBA 3. That's just like a little tougher for him to access in the, like the very narrow window that you have to. Kind of a high center of gravity too, right? Like that could be a part of it.

I mean, I'm definitely just spitball and guessing. Well, this is interesting because I think the backdrop to this whole game was like we're now starting to get all the trade deadlines scuttle back happening. And Sean Tarani had this big thing. on ESPN, which he nominated basically three teams, one of whom was the Raptors for Anthony Davis. And I have to say, of all the options on the board, he makes the most sense there than anywhere else, if only because the Raptors probably need at some point this sort of consolidation trade, something that I always thought that they would end up at, but it seems like we got there quicker than we expected considering to start. It's tough, though, Rob, because like the contracts,

Like when your top four guys are all making 20 plus million, even knock up hurdles on this five-year deal, it's like, how do you start unspooling all of this to even import AD? And so I guess the question is, do you like AD there? And on top of that, do you think like, how do we even prioritize who stays who goes outside of like the obvious ones like Barnes? And I don't even know who would be after that. Yeah, I mean, I love AD there. When we first started talking, getting into this stuff of the fact that AD could be on the move, Toronto was one of the first teams that jumped to mind for me. exactly this reason. Like they,

they've needed something a little different because Pertil has been so hurt and because otherwise they were playing so small and you could see the glaring, like pressing need for someone like Anthony Davis in the middle. If they could just get that, they could be a totally different class of team.

I think that a trade is feasible because Pertil could be involved, probably would have to go to a third team because I wouldn't think Dallas would have used for another big if they're going to keep Gaffert and lively, which I would presume they would. And then it would have to include someone like Emmanuel quickly probably,

who would be useful to the Mavs, but clearly come at a cost for the Raptors in the process. So it would change the shape of their team a little bit, but whether it's shed, whether it's bringing in another guard to kind of fill that spot, whatever they would want to do. Jacoby Walters kind of started in spots for them and been successful if you want to go full,

like point forward with this thing. Ultimately, though, if you can get Anthony Davis into the Raptors, I don't see anything here other than Scotty Barnes. It's like, this is absolutely nailed down and has to stay. Anthony Davis is worth taking a swing at. I think it'd be a great fit with this group. you're ruling Ingram out of that too, right? I mean, you're working with the assumption that you can achieve a triumbrate of Barnes,

Ingram and AD potentially. Is that or you're thinking Ingram's available? I'm not saying he's available. If you ask me what I would do, that's a different question. The way I think the Raptors will do. I'm just, yeah. Based on where the Raptors are, I would be shocked if they trade Brandon Ingram, given how vital his shot making has been to their formula.

They kind of moved heaven and earth to get him. That too. Yeah. Yes. And this is the problem with the Raptors. It's just like, what are the value of? these guys to other teams. I think Pertil is the prime example of that where it's like solid center, uh, clearly has an impact on defense, but you do worry about health age and also the

contract that they signed him to because they extended it on top of an extension. Like I believe he's under contract for five years now, which would be ironic that they double extended him and then got rid of him for Toronto who traded so much to get him back just to send him out yet again. But like, I agree that's the upgrade spot from there. I like quickly, I do think like his in between game, fills a lot of the gaps that they're hoping for. He's been playing really well up until this illness knocked him out tonight. And so, like, I would hope to keep him. But if I'm the Mavs, like, I would rather quickly in someone else, rather than R.J.

and Pertil, which is probably what the Raptors are trying to foist onto people, especially if, like, you hope Cooper, for instance, Kyle, Cooper is going to be a guy who's going to have the ball on his hands a lot. You want more of that in between quickly sort of stuff. Well, I mean, before we go to the Cooper element, I wouldn't be so sure about R.J. Like, this, this stretch has been illuminating for the Raptors in terms of how much they rely on him. It's true.

But two years on the deal, it just seems like contractually he's actually one of the better deals in part because all these guys are extended out a couple years. So I don't know. Especially that feels like that could get a little dicey. I'm like, do I want to continue to stack these things on top of each other that could give me problems? I mean, RJ likes to have the ball. I mean, this year, spot ups 33.3%.

Do we feel like that's who he is? probably. I mean, if it's brass tacks, if we're in a serious game, that's probably who he is. And then you look at Pertil. I mean, Pertil tonight, it's hard to, I'm just having a hard time wiping that out of my mind, watching him go against athletic bigs. Granted, I know he's not in tip-top shape in great form. But yeah, that one, that one's, do you want to add that if you're the Mavs? I would imagine no. I don't know. But I don't know how much of that is a permanent state versus a post-injury state. Like Yaka-Purdle is better

than the Yaka-Purdle who played in this game, who we should say, how much better? I mean, I think notably, notably more agile or nimble than this on a regular basis, but you put a guy with a bad back

against Mitchell Robinson and it's a fucking disaster. And that's not where you want to be. To be honest, like, as much as like Jalen Brunson helps swing this game and ultimately like the Knicks medal

helps swing this game, I thought it was like the special team stuff that kind of broke it open for them. It was Josh Hart in transition. And it was, Mitchell Robinson backbreaking. You know, I know it's a sensitive issue for Yakub Pertil, but with the offensive rebounds,

especially his own missed free throw, getting the rebound into a Jalen Brunson three. Like that is a couple of those tonight, didn't he? A couple, that was a thing that happened in both games. I think offensive rebounds that led to broken plays and threes. I think in both games that happened. Sheesh.

That's where you want Pertil to help you, because his, like, specialties are so narrow. If he's not going to help you on the boards, then you're left wanting a little bit with him. And I thought Towns in particular looked pretty feisty on the boards. I think he had like 12 around like halfway through the game. And he himself looks hurt in part because he himself also lurches around. Like I've never seen someone just with the body of like grew like be an NBA athlete in

the way that he has. But like like minions grew. I think that was the illusion. Yeah. You know how it's like a triangle and he doesn't really. He has a very top heavy but like the legs are thin. I always think of crew when I'm watching cats. I haven't seen those movies.

Yeah. We've kept them away from Julian. We've tried to hide it from him because we didn't want to see him. And he found out, Megan and I looked and we were like, fuck. Anyway, sorry. Well, I was a gentle minion. I think Uncle Justin is here to take him to see all the minions movies from here on out, apparently. Stay away from my son.

I did like the minions had like a special olipop and what I guess is the free ad. And I did really enjoy it. It was like a banana cream one. I was a big fan. Justin, what the fuck? A banana cream olipop? That sounds horrible.

We'll get one. That reaction that you got out of rob was special. I just want to say, we need some kind of a button. I want a physical button in my office that I can push. It's the this fucking guy button. Whatever Justin says,

there's a minions-flavored olipop that intrigued him. I'm like, this fucking guy. What? The only reaction, frankly. We're going to Air One when we're in L.A. and we're going to get ourselves some but a fucking cream

Ali pops. I don't think they're making this thing anymore. I think it's been discontinued. I think it's been recalled. Like that is rat poison what you drank. I get emails from Ali Pop all the time and I can tell you.

In circulation, probably not the Minion's version of it. But just spiral down. Anyway, Cat was good tonight. He was good. Disgust. Also quite good,

OG Anobie. I thought this whole game was like a four-year consideration if you want to do like the sparkling gold text across the screen. for your consideration, O.G. Ninobe for all defense everywhere, blowing up plays, like, obliterated Asandra Mamukelishvili layup attempt,

like before it could even leave his hand. I mean, doing stuff we've seen OG do, but he's one of the few wings who's like genuinely transformative in this way. He closes up the help side in a way that was pretty jarring. And for a team that kind of has, you know, staked its reputation on building rosters that are long. springy and rangy like the raptors had it jumped i mean what granted ogy was a raptor but that's what stands the reason but he he had a couple plays in this game where he just came out of nowhere and i

think the mom who play maybe is the one that you're talking about um there was another one i don't know it just kind of reminds me of um you've seen the hitchhackers guy to the galaxy movie he ever seen that i have not there's a scene where they're walking across i forget the plan it's the vogon planet i think and there's like this uh there's this vogue on planet yeah there's this wide open. They're like the bureaucratic big, like, yeah. And there's this wide open expanse. And as they're walking across, they like keep getting smacked in the face out of nowhere because they had. And what they realize is there's this creature on this planet that smacks you in the face if you have an idea. So they're trying not. And that's what that reminded me of every time the, every time the

Raptors had an idea of trying to drive to the basket, OG was like, bah. Like, I'm going to have to send you all that clip. Please do. He fits that description actually pretty well. I think it works. Somehow that worked. I have a theory about podcasting, especially at the ringer where like sports podcasting is just comparing sports to like movies and TV and TV and movie podcasting. Comparing those things to sports.

And like this podcast is just a prime example. I guess we had a little bit of a wrinkle there with the alley pop, but yeah. What would you like us to do? What do you want us to compare to? This is all we got. To me assuming you guys knew the Vogons, I really did say that flippantly like you guys

would just be with me. But I just assumed anyway, not to be unfair to you guys. All right, why don't we flip to the first game now because there's a little bit more to diagnose there. The magic, Rob's magic. Thank you. Moving on. Undefeated in cup play, 5 and 0, perfect. We'll never be beaten in the cup ever as far as I'm concerned, but certainly this year.

We're going all the way. They are cup top. Desmond Bain coming off a game where he threw a basketball and another human and then pretended like it was a mistake where he was falling out of bounds. That was cool. But played really well. I thought the defense showed up in this one, especially to turn things around after the starts that they have.

To me, it was just like a nice representation of in the midst of all the fretting over Franz and Paulo and like the start that they had that the defense quietly has become dominant yet again. Yes. I thought it was like a little frantic at the beginning. You know, Miami's going on this run. They're hitting every single shot.

Jalen sucks just like jumping and swinging wildly at every pass and ball in his in his path. But once they settled down, Orlando showed you what they can be, which is just one of the most stout positional defensive teams in the league. Like they will just stay down. They will stay in front of you. They're bigger than you at almost every position across the board. And they'll just muck up everything you do.

And so I can't even tell you how many heat possessions were just like a hard drive that went absolutely nowhere, stop, pivot, kick out pass and just like hope that if you do that enough times, you'll eventually break the magic down. and over the course of, especially the back half of the game, they just couldn't successfully create anything out of those sequences. I think you nailed it. The hard drives that went nowhere. I felt like Orlando just has the personnel.

If you watch, if you were just like we were creating a bizarro antagonist for Tyler Hero, it would look like Anthony Black, who is just as long in spring year. And then you saw, I mean, Dave, Dion just had a really hard time in this game. He was having a hard time. Still played well, though. Isaac came in. I mean, but the drives just weren't. They weren't getting their entry points for the way that they want to play.

Orlando just has antidotes at so many different positions. You even saw Jonathan Isaac, you know, was given, was given some trouble. I wondered at the start of the game if it was a case of Franz isn't there, Paolo's being a little bit, he's deferring a little bit, he's trying not to like step on the toes of what's working. And it just kind of looked like they were over deferring at the beginning of the game. and it was a little bit aimless, but once their defense started to trigger, that's when they caught some momentum.

And, you know, you weren't seen as many crazy. Norm Powell made some crazy shots, too. He did. As he does. He just held his hand up. Well, Justin,

I'm not sure what you saw from Palo, but I didn't read it as deferring so much as this is a guy who was clearly coming back from a groin injury and just like, I don't know that even when he was hitting shots, even when he was making plays, I don't think I saw him do one genuinely explosive thing. basically all game.

And that's just going to be part of his process and working his way back because we know what he can do. We know how physically imposing he can be certainly, but he's already quite a deliberate player. And he was just kind of like

really easing into things, I thought in this one. Is that tenderness or is that fear? Was he feeling it? Like was he sore or was that him being like, you know? Because I think once you pull something like that, you're kind of like,

it gets in your head a little bit. I don't know if you've had that kind of injury before. Isn't tenderness at the heart of all fear, Kyle? I knew you were going to fucking say something like that. I don't know why. You threw me the lob. What am I to do? It is pretty hard to read, though, because I think if you're an optimist,

I think you are reading into this. Like, oh, maybe Paulo finally learned something when he was on the bench and saw the offense flowing in the way that it hadn't previously. That could be true. It does feel like he is more conscious of that at times. It seems like he's being a little bit more past first or a little bit more just more mindful of how other people are working.

And I do think it's encouraging that Anthony, Black didn't have like a huge offensive game, but it just feels like he's a presence offensively in a way that he wasn't previously under like the Apollo centric sort of idea. And so Black just seems like the type of guy that you just have to play 34 minutes before. When we saw last year, like we talked about him at Lent Rob, like this is a guy that could be a guy probably four to five podcasts and never really fully clicked. Seems like this is the year that he's actually clicking it all together. Yeah, it was always like stretches and flashes in the pan last season. And really for the bulk of his NBA career.

to date. And then this season, he just looks like one of the most athletic players on the floor every single game he plays. He's just a full court transition weapon all the time, going after things, trying to dunk at every possibility. And yeah, like he's going to have moments where the in-between game isn't quite there, where he kind of has those like record scratches on the catch at three. That's all going to be part of the Anthony Black experience. But if he's this explosive and therefore like creating a different kind of threat than almost any other magic player is, that's immensely valuable for them. It's a totally different way to attack and expose whatever gaps you're able to create in the defense.

When he passed up at three, he caught a spot up three early in the game that was open and he passed it up. I was like, oh, because when you, there's just that if you pat, you know, if you pass it up, that's just, it's kind of a thing. It's just a matto ball sticking out. And he luckily didn't end up being an issue for him. He attacked enough. I thought to even it out. on the flip side of this the heat started great but i am in the back of my mind wondering at what point if it does come are we going to hit the limitations of this beautiful no

screen offense that they've assembled here do you get the sense rob that the success the magic had defensively was like if we're doing the pie chart of it was it almost fully magic or tough and this is their forte or do you think that they were able to prey on some of the disadvantages presented by Miami style. They are uniquely suited to blowing all this shit up just by the size that they have and the mobility of that size. And frankly, like, what the magic do well when they're really, really working defensively is they take out so much of the connectivity of your offense.

Like, they make it so hard to get from one action to the other because they're that physical and because they just like occupy so much space on the floor. And if you take Miami out of its all its cute, free flowing stuff, then it's just like, Norm Powell, can you score 50 points? Tyler Hero, can you hit every jumper that is available to you? Like, they just aren't able to actually get any momentum to what they do. Not every team can replicate that against the heat, as we've seen. Like, there's just some teams that don't have the personnel, don't have the commitment, don't have the philosophy.

I think there's some teams that are just going to be at a disadvantage against that kind of movement, but clearly Orlando is not one of them. Yeah, they even had a sequence where Miami got it off the rim and Orlando was just denying the first pass, like in the backboard. It was just sort of like a pseudo improvised press. And you could just see Miami had no, there was, it just deflated them. I think, I think you're right, Rob. It's just, yeah, they just have the personnel to sort of cut it off at the legs in a way that's really tough. And all that said, Tyler Hero went 0 for six. Couldn't get that thousand three that they mentioned a hundred times, but on the broadcast.

But it could have been a little bit more interesting. I was just really blown away by, if you want to. talk about things that teams didn't have an answer for. Another thing that really stuck out to me was Miami just had nobody that could absorb Desmond Bain going downhill at all. He was just going through everybody. He presented them in a challenge that was more glaring than I expected even. He's been kind of putting it together over the last couple weeks too, Justin,

where it's like the shot, we've been kind of waiting for him to hit at Desmond Brain frequency and percentage. but as an all around score, whether that's getting to the line, whether that's on those drives. He's been kind of putting it together recently in a way where this just added that other dimension of hitting more threes than he's ever hit

as a member of the Orlando Magic in addition to all that stuff he's been doing. But that was the thing that jumped out to me, especially late in the game, where they pack the paint and then there's the kickout. And you're like, this is probably going to Tristan de Silva or like a Gogo Bataze and he's not going to know

what to do with the basketball, but if Desmond Bain, and he just drills it pretty effortlessly. like that is the added dimension. And that was happening like in their first game of the season. It happened at times. We were like, oh,

this is the picture of what they could be. Seems like as things kind of click into place around him, he's really slotted into the role that they basically traded all those draft picks and went out of their way in order to kind of carve out for him. So it was encouraging to see. Yeah. I think we got some pushback too, by the way,

of like not really respecting them in our title pie because the title pie is indeed sacred. You know, starting to reconsider things. Because like a couple weeks later, what is it, like two weeks later, all of a sudden, like the raptors and the magics feel like they're going in opposite directions. It almost flip places. Oh, completely. I mean, the title pie is a fluid exercise.

We make this pie. We consume it as a team. And then we make another pie in a couple months and we chop it up all over again. The living document. Anything else from this one you guys want to hit on? You're worried about the heat at all? I mean, in what capacity? Well, that's the question with them.

You know, I think we all assume that this raised their floor, but they are sinking into eighth now into the playing mix. We're basically like resetting. We almost need to like a time in the NBA calendar where the fast starts start to recalibrate themselves. It's almost like where the boys become the men. It's like this is where the rubber meets the road part of the season. Because it does feel like that's happening.

And in the east where a lot of teams floated to the top because there wasn't any sort of like dominant upper crust. Yeah. feels like a lot of these teams are going through this weird, like, flux period right now. Yeah, I mean, if you just woke up and hadn't seen any basketball in the season today, you'd be like, yeah, the heat and the bulls are kind of like more or less where I expected them to be.

And we're just kind of shaped by the starts that they had. But ultimately, maybe we'll think the same thing in six weeks about where the Celtics are right now or six, you know, in six weeks about where the Sixers are right now or the raptors. Like some of this stuff is going to come back to Earth for sure. I think we're still in the process of figuring out what is real. And I think the way that Miami is trying to play is real. The returns on that were always going to diminish a little bit as the scout got out,

as teams got used to the way they're playing. And I would say specifically the pace element of that, which did not seem to bother the magic much at all after the first quarter. Like they're going to be taken out of that stuff. And with the personnel they have right now, unless Tyler Hero and Norm Powell are really hitting, they just don't have a lot of capacity to work around it. Yeah. I mean, I think what we're seeing, I think it's what we were talking about. talking about with Toronto too. I mean, they're good coaches who are seeing what they have,

seeing that, you know, maybe there's issues with the group of personnel that they have, and they're doing something new in many. We've seen Spow win every which way with a lot of different types of rosters. We saw him win with an ISO-heavy roster, you know, post-up back, you know, pre-3-point revolution. We saw him win when he had Duncan Robinson and Hero, when they were doing a lot of the offball sort of, you know, center, you know, Bam is the fulcrum kind of stuff. And we saw him do another thing with this. It's just, This one, I feel like, what's the, what are the, what's the, what's the pliability in your personnel and your identity past that? And I think that's kind of where it's stopping.

And, you know, barring a move. I don't know if these are two teams. I actually had written down Miami as a team. I know we're going to talk about moves. I had written them down as a team that could potentially make a move. For sure. And become more interesting. We could, more specifically why their culture makes them more equipped to do that. But that's kind of what I think we're seeing. Yeah, there was some scuttle about them sniffing around John Moran. That would be interesting because I do want to think one of the advantages they have as an institution, as an organization is being able to perhaps breed life back into these guys by just giving them rigid structure. They're obviously always mentioned with Zion. We might talk about that a little

later. I think like we're seeing a lot of teams need the, or encounter the cold hard fact about the NBA, which is just you need superstar talent. And like you could gin up ways to work around it and they've done so adequately. But if you want to compete at the high level, you need those sorts of guys. But speaking of those high levels, both of these teams, the Magic and the Knicks going to Vegas, baby.

Oh, yeah. I got to say, the Knicks, unfortunately, don't stand a chance. They're about to get bodied by Gogh, but Todd's and Wendell Carter Jr. Like all that stuff, you know, Big Boy and the Raptors,

I just don't think it's going to work against my magic. I hate to say, The Knicks don't stand a chance. There's a parody. I haven't done a parody in a while, right? I know. We got to get you back in the

booth. Yeah. So how are we doing this? Like the team that goes the farthest is the winner? I think presumably, but we didn't say that we actually win anything. So, you know, it's just, it's all that we might have to recede because mine was so pathetic. My rapids didn't. I even, I briefly got on fanatics and I was like, should I get something?

I'm glad I didn't do it. But I pick the sons tomorrow who are facing no Columbus City Thunder. Yeah. But the sons do have some goddamn juice. And I did see that Devin Booker is questionable for that game. Okay, that's exciting. We'll see. Does that mean Dylan Brooks?

Because they have Colin Gillespie. They do. If Devin Booker plays, will Dylan Brooks still take 25 shots, do you think? Not even a criticism. Just commentary. He's probably one of the best pull-up mid-range shooters in the league right now. It's fucking crazy. Janky is all fuck.

He's been awesome. The fact that he's doing the floor raising defensive stuff, but all of a sudden has just become an additive plus offensive player for the first time in his career, probably. Pull this up. I just. It's unbelievable. The sons are just aware. I don't care what the stats say.

It goes in every time he shoots it. And his elbow is just all the way out. Okay. From two, you're not wrong. Yeah, that's the one we're talking about. Yeah, yeah. 50.6, dribble pull up two is pretty good. 31% on dribble pull up threes,

but he knows where his bread's buttered. So that's good. He does. They call me synergy on the courts. You know? No one does. No, absolutely not. But, you know,

Yeah, I'll go with Nix just to be different. Kyle, do you have an inkling one way or another, Knicks or Magic? I would love. Harsh environs of Vegas. Who do we, do we think there are any outside factors are going to come into play?

Do we see anybody, is anybody going to be potentially distracted? Oh, good question. A while a group. I don't know, man. You think they're getting, they could get out there and maybe have a good time? No,

Jonathan Isaac's not letting those guys leave the hotel. That's very true. That's very true. Well, perhaps he gets like he goes to one of the mega churches out there and just gives his track of time. It's entirely possible. But we support him in all, well, not all his endeavors, but at least some of his endeavors. On that one. I would lean Nix.

But man, it's going to be, the Nicks better be ready to come play because it's going to be, it is going to be a fight. Yeah. Tomorrow's a fun slate, though. Yeah. You could listen to another podcast. about that, unfortunately, because we'll get you back on Sunday. Why don't we take a quick break and we come back? We're going to talk about the Pelicans.

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Well, he's Joe Dumars. No one calls him that. Not a single person calls him that. Well, maybe because he's also a horse, and he's specifically a horse owned by the Bensens. because I don't know if you guys know this, but the Benson family owns a lot of horses and horse races in addition to some of their sports franchises. And as you might imagine,

the jokes write themselves about where the horses stand in the hierarchy of the Benson sort of repertoire as opposed to perhaps the Pelicans. So this is a literal fact you are reporting that the Benson's have a horse named Joey D. They have a horse named Joey D. When I was covering the team almost a decade ago now, there were two like that had Tom in their name because Tom Benson was then the owner.

It's like Tom's ready. And then I forgot the other one like Tom's foolery, but there were two Tom's. I remember those horses doing quite well. Unfortunately, Joey D. named after Joe Dumars, as you might imagine, already a little weird naming your horse after your general manager. Yeah. Did he break his leg?

In this case, you're your employee. I, you know, it just, I feel like we're getting into a very weird territory. Didn't break his leg. But apparently in his first race, he launched the jockey. And then in this most recent race, he finished 58 lengths behind the winner. That doesn't seem good. I'm not familiar with the proportionality of that kind of loss. But it doesn't seem ideal.

He lost the race. He launched in the jockey. I'm pro horse. You know, I don't think. Honestly, you're right. We should be doing it. Get him out of there, you know. We'll get some emails.

about this, but, yeah. Leave those horses alone. Human Joey D. Yeah. Things are looking a little bit better for him these days because one Derek Queen all of a sudden is the new apple of the eye of every like hip NBA watcher out there, including all of us. We've already taken a lap in this regard.

But I feel like the the lather is just building up ever since, especially after he has the 33 point triple double he had against the spurs. And it was funny, Rob, because the news story written about that on ESPN.com was like, because the spurs won the game and Dylan Harper was awesome in order to win that game. But the start of the story was like, Derek Queen, a beautiful angel who could do no wrong, had a triple double, but also Dylan Harper won the game for the Spurs. She is a beautiful angel who could do no wrong, except there's like some points every third or fourth game where he gets taken out of it completely because teams are putting him in action and he can't

guard a damn thing. I'm not so concerned about that at this point, but it's a factor, you know? Ultimately, I'm very excited about the 33 point domination in a loss against the spurs. Or I thought he acclimated himself really well in that overtime loss against the wolves, too. Like he just had games on games like this lately where every time he puts together these like really like big time performances, you just start to feel the pelicans shifting as an organization under their feet. You start to feel something really coalescing here in terms of if you are not putting your time and energy and attention behind Derek Queen, what he is showing you in real time.

What are you doing? Like, what else does this organization have to show for itself? My guy's a full-blown hub, man. I mean, and I think the thing that we worried the most about when he was coming into the league, the thing that pushed me more towards thinking he might be more of a Boris Diao type, the Boris type, because he was a little bit here or there, his interest in the game, whatever game it was, or whatever environment was, we'd go up and down. But the scoring was the main thing where I was like, if he's not going to be able to consistently

score he's going to have to be i don't know how much of a focal point he can be but dude i mean his big thing you know we were talking at our ringer end of year thing about um you know this the one of the ones in on the list i'll bury the lead spoil it uh but was the derrick queen shot the game winner and the thing that he did on that game winner what that was so crazy was he took the ball from the top of the arc and took these giant steps and then changed direction and shot this feathery soft shot off the top of the glass and he did that over a big and i I think that's the kind of, that's the crux, that's the genesis, that's the place where he becomes a really unique player.

In transition against the spurs, there was a really painful moment where I just rewound it. I know everybody did, but poor Luke Cornet was trying to flip his hips against Derek Queen in transition, and he tripped over his own feet. And I was like, oh, my Jesus. That's the thing, man. He can just attack Biggs in a way that few guys like him can. Like, there's just, it's a short list.

Yes. There's a part of him that is basketball savant. There's a part of him that's like the ballet hippos in Fantasia just kind of twirling around people. You know, it's like the very unusual combination of that kind of size and that kind of like dexterity in every sense of that word possible. It's remarkable. I'm glad you mentioned that because that's the hippos popping. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Dancing bears as well. Because I was the guy I keep thinking about and we've tossed around a couple comps for him. is DeMarcus Cousins. Because Cousins was more violent in his physicality. But the thing that always jumped out to me with Cousins was his nimbleness. And he's the type of guy who's like pushing 300 pounds, but you could think he could do a back handspring just because of like what a free physical athlete he is. Yeah. But the thing that always like really jumped out to me with Cousins,

who I was there when he got traded to New Orleans was like his touch on everything. And I always thought it was notable that when all the bigs in the league started to put up threes when that became kind of a necessity for those guys. Cousins was the one who, like, adapted to that immediately. His three-point numbers and his attempts were just, like, pretty in line with a good shooter, like, immediately where he's, like, 80 and some of these other guys struggled. He's just like, there's something about him where the big old physicality is bled by just as, like, unique touch.

And when I watch Queen, like, he's just making these sorts of, like, poetic, just like really easy movements that you wouldn't expect for someone of that size. Yeah. I think the difference is. between cousins and him to me is there is a to your point about the physicality of demarcas cousins just and there was always something with boogie where it's like he almost wants the path of most resistance like he wants to go through the guy to score he's a psychopath yeah i mean like in a good way in a competitive way in a clearly productive way i mean also in bad ways yes well sure i mean

it's it's a little of all the above and derec queen has like he has some of that he has some bully ball instincts for sure, but he also has like a glancing blow sort of thing where on his drives, he's bumping by you, but not through you in a way that I think facilitates kind of getting through these crowds in a modern NBA sense. He kind of makes you wonder what he even is because he doesn't, like you were saying, he is sort of a hybrid between that really great ability to decelerate and slow his steps down. And then he can kind of, but I was saying I was comparing him to Arizona has a kid named Coa Pete who does a similar thing where he can body you and back you down, but he honestly kind of tenderizes you a little bit and get and then, and then, you know,

he doesn't want to just like bury you and shovel dirt on you all that we can. But Queen is doing that a whole lot too. A lot of the just angular little flips, his hands are just really great. You were talking about the defense. I feel like that's a whole, you know, just frontier of the questions about him and who he's going to be for them and how they're going to build around him and get the most out of him on offense without having this just glaring, you know, weakness on defense or whatever it's going to be. Yeah, I just think his nimbleness is, Cousins is a good guy to bring up. There's some Zbo. There's some Shingun. He's definitely in that file of him a player. Cousins was such a tour to force that I remember when he got traded there that the entire organization had like

a meeting where everyone had to come to terms where like this is a different type of guy. Like, you just have to watch yourself. And I remember talking to beat writers for the kings at that time where they're like, he reads everything and he will hold you accountable to everywhere that you said. And I was like, oh, shit. So he's like, he was the type of person where you like everyone had to watch out for him. It doesn't seem like that with Queen. If anything, he seems like almost very gentle off the court and like almost has like this

more Zibo style of spirit to him, which I kind of appreciate. I mean, these days the idea of anyone reading anything seems awfully quaint. So I, he was ahead of his, well, ahead of his. time behind his time i'm not even sure which one it is you don't think any oh will you any person literally any person read any i mean any person but NBA players absolutely do not read everything they read the quote excerpt that goes around on twitter that their friends sent them and then do not read the thing because why would they read the thing yes this was a little time when like people actually saw blogs and you actually

went to twitter to find things and you could find things this is before i was covering the NBA, but obviously huge to Marcus Cousins fan. I named my dog boogie, one of my favorite players ever. But before I was covering the NBA, I bought one of those dry fit jerseys because, you know, I'm not, I'm just not going to be wearing jerseys. I will wear, you know, a sweater vest and look like the Mean Street Posse, like we were joking about another story for another time. Wait, so you won't wear a jersey, but you will wear a dry fit jersey? I did one time. No, wait, I won't wear a jersey, but I will wear a T-shirt that's dry fit material. That's different. A jersey with no shirt under it is kind of what I'm saying. Like,

I'll wear a jersey, but not a... I'm not doing any of these. Yeah, I feel like neither is a great fit, you know? I don't wear a ton of them anymore. The point, the point here is, this is just a little anecdote. I bought a DeMarcus cousin's jersey when he went to Nola and he tore his Achilles like the next day after I bought it. And I never wore it again because I felt like that was cursed. And I was like, I'm going to tear my Achilles. I felt spiritually I felt like I couldn't wear it. And I never did. You got to bury that thing.

You can never even look at it again, frankly. It's just all kinds of bad energy coming off of that jersey. I mean, speaking ahead of their time, the AD cousins pairing was pretty much ahead of his time. I did want to really see that team in the playoffs. I wasn't there at that point. But like they did pretty well.

That's the series that they blitzed the Blazers in the first round. And they probably would have given the wars a strong go of it in the second round as well. But it's a question for like Queen too. Yes. Like in terms of his pairing, do you guys have in the like two weeks since we've talked about him, have any additional insight into like how you fill things out around him? Well, I think this is one of the areas in which some of our conversations are lagging a little bit

behind the actual state of the game right now. Because right now, teams are going big. They're really hitting the offensive glass. Like the paradigm of the NBA is changing rapidly. And so much of the conversation around Derek Queen is kind of conceptualizing him as the one big in a space. offense. And I think the way that the game is being played right now, it's much more viable to put him alongside another cooperative big who would be able to cover up for him defensively and

protect the rim in ways that are never going to be super comfortable for him. And you can have a little bit of balance between them in that way in a way that I think could be like ultimately very solvent, very exciting. I think that that is that is the direction I would be looking in is who is the big we can put next to him where even if neither of them is a pure spacer, they have enough ball skills between them and the other the other big is like just a knockout rim protector that would be my ideal kind of pairing for queen I mean it'd be somebody

I mean Miles signed that deal with because the idea of Miles doing that for Janus is sort of similar I guess Nas wouldn't really fit that description no you wouldn't want to go get Busevic because you'd score a lot of points but you wouldn't guard anybody I'm just trying to think of like I mean

Jared Jackson would be fun Yeah, that could be fun. How would you get that done? It's like not literally, but the Anthony Davis-Demachus-Cousinous pairing is telling. Like it's saying the idea of an Anthony Davis type is patently ridiculous, but if such a thing did exist and could be replicated, that would be a good place to start. Isaiah Blakely, our producer, suggests Porzengis. That makes some sense.

But you're right because the real beauty of Davis-Cousins was the passing between them. They're both so brilliant. There's big passers that like the synergy. there just like the ball really pinged when things were going right. Yeah, it's interesting. Like it seems like not only did the rocket stumble onto something, like other teams took note of their success of being really big in the playoffs because teams of fault.

Fred Katz has a really good article about that in the athletic day. I recommend that to anybody who's interested in this stuff. But it seems like teams are going bigger and they're also crashing the boards, not just with two guys, but like really selling out to do so. Yeah. That balance of like transition defense versus offensive rebounding. We are in a whole new frontier.

year. Unfortunately for Doc. Quick question before we get into like bigger picture Pelican stuff. So we're not going to do defensive player of the year after a quarter, but we are going to do rookie of the year because that's the obvious conversation with Queen. I would say it's more Queen Cnapple because Flag has come on, but I would still probably put him third if we're just going by what we have seen over the first quarter. Where do you guys land? I think that's probably the two right now, but I wouldn't be shocked if in two months

Cooper has really shot up into that conversation in a different way. Just by the nature of how the Mavs lineup is changing, and he just seems ultimately a lot more confident settling into that sort of role. That's where I am too. I mean, Conn was really terrific to start the season, and we've seen just sort of, it's definitely a scoreboard at a minor league baseball game kind of thing where they surged ahead.

And then Queen is surging ahead now. And I do think that there's wiggle room for Cooper to put it together, but I'd lean con still. I think so, too. It's close. It's close. I mean, this class has just been really, really terrific. I'm excited to see there, there are the arcs that, there are more arcs that are peaking

higher than I even expected, that have the chance to have a high, a higher trajectory at their high points than even I expected. So excited to see that those unfold. It's a funky thing, Justin, because con can't nipple's like on our ringer top 100 right now. Like he's been, he's been that good consistently to. warrant that kind of appreciation. And yet we have the breakout conversation about Derek Queen, I think in part because the best version of Derek Queen is a franchise changing player.

The best version of Conchipal is really, really good. I think the jury's still out on how high that ceiling goes exactly. And is that a low level star? Is that a consistent all star, whatever the best version of Con turns out to be? Like, the floor is great. But the ceiling with Derek Queen is mesmerizing. And is the kind of thing that deserves being kind of bandied about and figured out? Yeah, Queen is just a spectacle in the way that Khan is not.

It's kind of like watching him with fears who in his own right will have these plays where it's like, whoa, like, how did you just do that? Like it just jumps like almost like a like a jumping bug. I don't know. Like a thing that jumps, you know? But it's almost like what if Zebo played with a job. A minion right? As opposed to. Yeah, exactly.

What if Zibo played with like a Jama rant type as opposed to a Mike Conley type? It was like the picture of steadiness and just like. that just caretaker. But like, Fierrez has those like moments of electricity where you're like, oh my God. But Cinnibble's like he's 46, 4091 right now. He's scored in big moments with guys around him, without guys around him. I think he's like the

clear of the quarter rookie, but you're right. I think this is a wide-up in race. There's a lot of guys who've been playing well recently. Yeah. Including Dylan Harper, by the way, who looked incredible. Oh, man. Holy smokes. Took the t-shirt off and all of a sudden looks like a big boy. Some people can have the option to take the t-shirt off. I was a BPT under Jersey kid even when I was playing in high school.

So I was really glad Tyler shouted out Mike Gansy, by the way. I was just going to say, though, in his article, and people aren't going to know what I'm talking about. It is League Pass article. I do know what you're talking about. Everyone should know about Mike Gansy. He's in the NBA now. So there we go.

It's not as obscure as what we would think. But no, I mean, the baseline of what Kant does has translated so, so well. And I wanted to also shout out just how stable, like clearly stable mentally he is out there. If you ever just see him, I think that's a really underrated thing about shooters. And I mean, that's not an original thought. I've had shooting people say that to me that that's one of the most like underrated traits that a guy who trades on shooting can have is just to have a really stable personality, not too high, not too low. He just, he knows, he knows where the value, you know, ads are in his game and he sticks to them. But I also think I really do think that there are areas

where he can expand and create for himself with some of the like dribble pull up stuff and just being aggressive. I don't know he's ever going to be like a get into the rim kind of monster, but he has a lot of upside man. I was going to ask you all, do what do you think fears has done to the Jordan Pool conversation? Do you think that they have looked at this and been like, we suddenly have two of these things because I've said over and over again, I was wrong about It looks like I'm going to be very wrong about fears. Do you think he's affected how they feel about pool at all? I don't really know what brought them to acquire Jordan Pool in the first place is the problem.

Yeah. I don't know how to put myself in the mindset of the Pelicans front office because they do things that are really weird. So, but if you're saying like a normal front office, like probably wouldn't have acquired pool to begin with. But like I have been encouraged by the fact that they haven't been precious about playing veterans over the young guys. As soon as the young guys popped, it seemed like they were willing to lean into it. And it's probably a good segue to talk about the more bigger picture because it sounds like in the background of all this, they're more open according to reports, which are just rumors, which are just people talking, to take offers, listen to offers about some of the veterans that they, the front office didn't bring in. The Trey Murphy's, the old guard in air quotes, because they're still like 25 or whatever. but Herb Jones,

Trey Murphy, Zion Williams, and this regime did not draft them. And so naturally, I think they're more open to exploring them or at least according to what people are saying. I don't get that because Murphy and Herb in particular seemed to be like the perfect structure

you would want around some of these young budding rookies. I assume you guys kind of feel the same way. Where are you on Trey and Herb right now, Rob? Yeah, I mean, you're right that there's no reason you urgently need to trade a 25-year-old who's under contract for a long time and improving basically by the day. Like, that's not a thing you have to do. The reason you do it, if they do, is just to straight up length on the runway.

It's that you have just consciously decided we are such a Derek Queen team. We want to lengthen this thing out. We want to get as much draft capital potentially as you can or, you know, young prospects who are already established in the league, whatever that looks like. The Tray Murphy part of it, I just don't really see. I think the combination of he's so useful to the pelicans in whatever form their team takes and also so potentially useful to every other team that they could really drive an incredibly hard bargain in terms of what they want back for him that other teams I think would maybe even Blanch at

because he's quite valuable but is he multiple first round picks valuable? Is he picks and young players valuable? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But I just don't see a world in which Trey Murphy gets moved in relatively short order necessarily. So you don't think that he's going to get the McHale Bridges treatment and get somebody like way over swing for him? That's the question because I also think the market has moved to where you're hearing that like people aren't going to be as willing to fork over the four picks for just like a normal like potential all-star, not just like a true blue. Yes. Superstar.

But this is why I think people will, they'll look at the Pelicans. Look, if you're a contending team, a competitive team, a playoff team and you need wings, the Pelicans should be your first. call. Like they really should because of where they are in the marketplace, because they're at this transition point. And I think very importantly, because they have both of these guys. And I guess three, if you want to throw Sadiq Bay in there as kind of a combo forward who's not as good as Herb Jones and Trey Murphy, but pretty decent this season. It could be useful to a bunch of different teams. I think. Some minutes. Yeah. That do could chew up some minutes. No problem.

But if you, why are you doing this to me? If you see the market for and you're like, that's a little rich for my blood. Just get in the other aisle. Like get in the other line and come in for Herb Jones with a more moderate offer because I don't think he's quite as appealing and like an all around offensive player. And maybe you can tap into that market in a way that feels a little more reasonable for where your team is. Or what if you traded for both of them?

Oh, that is blow your mind? It did blow my mind. Who is trading for both Tray Murphy and Herb Jones, Justin? All right. We're going to go to the extreme route real quick because, so Troy Weaver comes from Detroit. Sure. Hearing a lot of like, Troy Weaver was really the guy who drafted all these guys, by the way. Like I've had two people in the league be like, Troy Weaver knew what he was doing there.

He just didn't add shooters quickly enough in order to save his own bacon, which I think there's actually some truth to. But Trayson Langdon from the Pelicans, former GM of the Pelicans, went to Detroit, added those shooters and they've been successful as a result. What if they just basically are like, I want. my guys back and you get your guys back. And so the deal I have down here, which I'll be honest, I don't love, but I think there's something in the mix here that maybe you help, you guys can help me on spool. Tobias Harris, expiring contract, Assar, and Ivy for Murphy, Herb, and Bay. I don't know that I'm trading Asar Thompson in a deal like in a deal like this.

Well, I have two sticking points from Detroit's perspective. I guess three, if you want to include, the business are really good. And I think moving past the inertia, of that is like you have to be convinced of something, right? Trading Assar Thompson is a real turnoff for me. Like I'm very invested in his future. And especially if you're talking about flipping him for someone like Herb Jones, it's like, who's to say a Sart Thompson can't be Herb Jones in two years?

Like, who's to say he can't be along that kind of track? He could be a more dominant defender. I think he put already in the conversation. But I mean offensively, like, who's to say he couldn't have the Herb Jones offensive skill set in a couple years? I believe he has that in him. The other part of this, too, that gets really tricky is it's very, It's very tempting, Justin, to include Tobias Harris in these deals because of his salary.

Kind of really important to the Pistons in very specific ways. In this one, I love any construction that gets Trey Murphy to the Pistons. That's a match that I would love to see happen. But if you swap him in for Tobias Harris and other players and picks and stuff, who is guarding power forwards on that team? Because Trey Murphy is much more of like a natural wing defender to me than a four defender. And so then Isaiah Stewart is playing bigger minutes or something. or like a spot matchup, which is fine, but maybe ultimately you're putting too many balls in the air

with that kind of thing. I just get a little nervous about what you're giving up in, in girth, you know, in some of, in kind of some of that physicality and size that is not necessarily Troy Murphy's forte. Trey Murphy,

not, it was kind of Troy, Troy Murphy's forte. Too many Trey's and Troy is going on right now. Troy Murphy, Notre Dame legend. Yeah, Assar would be the only thing from that. Yeah, I mean, the expiring is attractive. Obviously, I want to get picks.

I don't know. Like for what I'm trying to do, I don't really know that that's an attractive deal for me if I'm the Pelicans, to be honest. Because you don't want to stack anymore. It would be a SAR. That would be the only one. But I don't, I just think that would, that deal would blow up before it could even get started. I just don't, I don't think it can happen.

I think the pistons give up too much. I was trying to do it without Ivy in it because I don't. even know what Ivy's value is at this point because he's due a new contract and he's been hurt and he really hasn't played significant minutes at this point but if he all of a sudden turns this around he could be electric but then like the Pelican still have like Dejante Murray in the in the coffer is just like hanging around probably going to play next year I would assume and so that's like next calendar year like not even next season he will he will probably play in January February something like that right and another wrinkle to all this is herb I'm never sure where he is as a shooter

like he started the season hot and then all of a sudden it craters and he just hasn't really had that like back to back season where I like I know I could have it. And so if you're dealing for Murphy who's just a lights out volume shooter, but like her a little bit iffyer Bay also somewhere in the 35 range, it's dicey. But the one thing you would count on is herb is a badass and Murphy kind of falls a suit in there. And so Herb really kind of like embraces the identity. He could play bigger talking about like guarding fours like they were calling him a center at it. certain point with the pelicans but not really but like he guards bigger guys yes and so i think they could get into that conversation for sure for like one of the two right it just depends on if you can get tray murphy without giving up too much size if you can trade for herb in a way where you're not

selling out just too much in terms of pure talent like is a is a ron holland caris lavert and one to two picks kind of thing enough to get some stuff going depending on who you're targeting between those two wings ron holland caris lavert and picks Yeah, like one to two firsts For one of Let's say, you know, if you're obviously If you're trading for Murphy, maybe it's more in the two picks kind of range If you're trading for for Herb Jones in a little less

I don't move Murphy for anything less than a SAR and other stuff I don't know where you guys are on Holland But that's practically what this comes down to Are you guys still high on him is like a SAR 2.0 I guess I'm not for the Pistons but as far as like what are the kinds of players I would want around Derek Queen an intuitive cutter and physical defender on the wing

is like that's a pretty appealing option. Cutters for sure but cutters who are you know dubious shooters is tough. You I don't know what are the optimal players around him if we're thinking of him we know we have to protect him on defense.

We know we want to have shooting around him. I think I need to have somebody I don't know, I keep thinking Markinen as the guy that you think of for every team because he just unlocks so many different things. I don't know. I don't know that they have the pieces. I just keep coming back to. I just don't know.

Like I said, Ivy, I just don't think so. Holland. Granted, I don't know. Could Holland and Queen play together? Is that going to be, you're still going to get bullied by really big sinners. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

It's funny that you mentioned Markening though, Kyle, because I feel like Tray Murphy and Markinen are from a similar word cloud. You know, like there's, you know, Murphy is much more of a defender than Markening is. Markinen is a much more explosive score. But they both shoot on the move really well. They both have the size. They both have the handle and can facilitate. Like there's something about the Markanin trade market of all the teams you would consider in that pool.

Which like, you know what? If you think you're out of it, if you think Utah just isn't going to move Lori Markinen, then you should put in a call about Tray Murphy and see if that kind of, you know, slight step down and off to the side fit could also suit your needs. Can I throw another wild one at you? Please. As we record this at 9.35 p.m. This is just a wild Tuesday night here.

Well, 35. Hey. Check your privilege. Austin Reeves. Lost expirings for Murphy and Herb. Wow. I had Lakers, too. I didn't dare go to Austin.

and I probably made more of a poo-boo bladder. You were really giving Trey a lot of credit. I don't think they're going to move optionality. Austin is way too good. Well, can't do it. It's a good way to recalibrate where we are with Reeves. I'd ultimately end up there as well.

But I think the advantage would be similar to how the nuggets opened up space to sign other guys by trading Michael Porter Jr. By not having to pay Reeves a max, getting two guys that fit around Luca, can you then use the rest of your assets? to go fill out the front court and then just put the complete team next year. That would be one of the advantages. I also think Murphy would be very good.

He would. But so would Herb Jones. I think maybe the option I would take if I were the Lakers is just, is there a platter approach between picks and contracts to get Herb on your team without giving up someone like Austin Reeves? It gets bleak. It does get bleak, but stranger things have happened. And certainly stranger things have fallen into the Lakers lap.

Yeah, I'm just saying I could probably get a pick. you think I could get a pick and then you know I don't know maxi's expiring I'm just trying to think I'd want a player back though too if I'm new orleans so but I had New Orleans down for Trey murphy too just because you get you get intoxicated with the idea of that I mean it would just be fucking awesome yeah on the lower end so we're just looking at Herb Jones here which I think is where a lot of contenders will probably end up like I have the warriors down here I have the nets even Like if I just bring someone who's like a steady, feisty veteran into my young team. I also think he could have that effect on them in the same way he did on the young pelicans as a rookie where he was just a badass in a first round series against the sons.

Speaking of the sons, how do you like Malawatch for a front core companion to Queen? Kind of the opposite of what we were saying before. He's like he's the big old road grader. I'm curious where he is Kyle as a shooter. but young, talented center to perhaps like pair in the front court. There are those out there who think he's going to shoot the ball. We've heard tell from something that he might shoot the ball someday. They are not the ball someday.

And they are not dummies. There are smart people out there that think he eventually will shoot the ball. I'm a little dubious of that. They're not going to give up on my watch this quickly, right? I mean, I feel like they're built to win now. They're built to win something now. He's the Suns fan. Yeah.

They're built to maybe challenge the OKC in the first round of the cut. If you're just looking at the basketball fit, I mean, Molo Watch is just an obstacle. I think once he hits his peak, because he's still 19 years old, spacing-wise, is that going to work? You know, Queen played in a too big system in college, and the other shooter was, or the other player was a non-shooter. It was actually, what's her name's brother? Isaiah probably knows who I'm talking about for Maryland. Anyway, I'm sidetracked on that.

Just some woman from Maryland's brother. Isn't it Angel Reese's brother, Isaiah? Julian Reese, he says. Is that wrong? No, he said Julian Reese, yeah. Yeah, well, anyway. Angel Reese is the woman from Maryland? It's Angel Reese's brother.

Yeah, Derek played college ball with her brother. I knew that was right. I just never heard Angel Reese described as the woman from Maryland before. No, I was, the rebounder is what I was trying. I was trying to access her name, sorry, parent brain. Offensively, yeah, I think spatially it would be a little bit of an issue just because, you know, Reese could at least roam a little bit in a way that I just don't, I don't know defenses are going to respect Malawatch. I mean, Rob, have you seen enough of Malawatch to have an opinion on him like that?

Absolutely not. I mean, my question was someone like Malawatch is, are you differentiating enough from the jumpy pogo stick Eve Misi's stuff to be. be a meaningful addition to your team. He's more glacial than Misi. I mean, he's, Misi at least flies up and down the floor. Mollwich is a little bit of a slower movie, but he's just,

he has roll gravity, he has crazy roll gravity. He dunks everything within five feet of the basket. Granted in the NBA, I don't know how true that's been so far, but his hands need a little bit of work. It'd be a little tough. That'd be a longer term thing.

If you maybe bring him in and say, like, this could be a longer term bet. Maybe, possibly. could I throw another set of Herb Jones destinations at you guys? Please. First of all, I would love him for Denver. I don't see how they get it done, given how, like, complicated their pick situation is.

I just don't think they have enough to trade. The Spurs, though, I think do have enough to trade. And they could be a team that if they want to include multiple first for Herb Jones, they could do that. Kelly O'Lenix contract, I think, works nicely as just like a filler swap. So, I'm back. I mean, that's cruel one. its own way. But really the enticement would be something like if Atlanta's 2027 pick really

gets your blood going. You know, like that maybe that's something you want to bet on. Maybe a future spurs pick with light protection or no protection if the spurs are willing to swing on it. I don't know that San Antonio does that when they're also potentially in like the Yana sweepstakes and all this stuff. Like they could take big swings at almost any star who comes available who even vaguely fits their team. And if you are in that position, do you really give up potentially a first or multiple first for Herb Jones. I'm curious to hear what you guys think about that. The problem with the Spurs is that they already have guys in line to ultimately fill those roles.

And so Carter Bryant, a guy that drafted in the lottery, is like he barely gets on the court at this point. True. Could you just wait? And it seems like their MO has always been to stack these guys up and bet on the talent rather than go out and get someone. Even the price they paid for Fox was pretty modest. And so I don't fault them for that, even if it doesn't work out. And I think you're right, ultimately. It's like if you're going to make a swing, like you go for Yonnas or real game change or not one of these like short term moves.

But that need, I'm not antsy enough. I don't think. Yeah, based on what Justin's saying, it's stockpiled so much. I mean, you know, Carter is super super young and I haven't lost any faith in him. I'm still a big believer in him. Yeah, I mean, it's really not a need at all. It would be stacking strength on strength. But the concept of a defense that has Steph Castle and Herb Jones and Victor Webb and Yama is,

is like a one size fits all vice grip that I would be very excited to see in action that just had to say those three names in unison I have a couple other teams down here but like they're not great honestly it's more me thinking from the current regime of the Pelicans POV like they seem enamored with Kaminga and he seems not long for the words

although he said that for two years running like is comminga and picks enough to get Herb Jones for instance I mean a comminga for Herb Jones trade is such like a ball knower's hell. You know, it's like, it's so clear which one of these guys actually does something that helps you. And yet, and yet it might, I could see it happening. The Nets, if they just want to plug and play center, Nick Clackson and Nick's picks.

But here's the thing, like, if I was the Pelicans and I feel like my strength is talent identification, I would just be stacking picks. And the cruel irony is they gave away next years. And that seemed like if they got these two right, they could have just kept this thing rolling and actually have been onto something as soon as like two years down the road, unfortunately, just doesn't seem where they're going.

All they had to do is protect the pick. We've said it a million times. All they had to do is protect the pick. It's tough. Have you guys thought about Zion trades? Before we go to Zion, I have one more Herb Jones option to throw at you. Justin, this one might be painful to you personally

because it involves your doppelganger Max Struz. Oh, no. What do the cats? needs. So he's going to New Orleans just like I blazed the trail for him. Exactly. He's going to follow in your footsteps. He's going to go to all your old haunts.

You know, maybe you can just give him some advice if you like if this happens. But the idea of Max Struz and like a distant unprotected Cleveland first that, I mean, who knows what could happen with that franchise. Maybe that's something to kind of get the wheels moving on a Herb Jones deal. It's weird because Cleveland kind of needs offense in a way more than they need defense. But if they could be calm.

an even more rock solid defense first team starring Donovan Mitchell, maybe that kind of identity shift could move them in a meaningful way. I believe Cleveland's in the second apron, and this would have to get out of the second apron in order to execute that. But if they did,

and there are ways to do that in the middle of the season, I think that that would work. They're a prime example of a team that's so committed to the now that just adding more is the right move for them, I think. I think I want to say that the salaries actually work even with the second apron considerations. Okay.

I'll be honest. If you tell me anything right now, I'll believe it because even the trade machines are confusing at this point. Yeah. So I believe this is true. Max Drews makes slightly more money than Herb Jones. And because it's a one-for-one trade,

which the cavaliers can do, and they're taking back less money in the process, I believe that would be legal so long as it's executed as such without needing to include any other players to entice the Pelicans. So it would have to be picks involved. Okay, well then I don't like it because I don't think Max Drews helps the Pelicans, but maybe not.

Also, it's not played a game this season, but he's a theoretically useful player. Yeah, I look forward to handing over my Tinder account to him just like I'm one of those pillows. This is now yours, my son. This is Christ, Justin. So if you thought that trade was bottom of the barrel at this point. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That was a sterling idea that you guys just put it for no reason. an injured Cavs guy for Herb Jones.

No, I'm trading a future Cavs first round pick for Herb Jones. That's what's happening. Also, that happens to include Maxx-Rus. That's the spin, baby. Zion deals. At this point, like, if they just got a productive player back, that seems like fair value, he's out yet again. I think if any team that's actually going to accept him on the current jail that he's on,

as opposed to wait for them to waive him or whatever can happen with his non-guaranteed contract, but you're not getting much back in return and so I have teams listed here but the return is quite modest I had the Bulls first and foremost but only for Kevin Herder's bird rights ultimately Oh my God, is it that is it that bleak? I mean I have the heat down

Where it's just contracts in Yovic We did play tonight The Nets, Claxton And the Warriors, it's comminga At least Claxton's pretty good Coxon's good Do you want to stop Gap Center? I could get claxing back for Zion.

That'd be amazing. I think that would be, I think that would be great for the Pelicans. But Yovich might be kind of the caliber of player that we're talking about. Someone who, like, in the eye of the beholder you can talk yourself into, that eye is not mine personally. But clearly even people within the heat thought he was going to be something going

into the season has just like, has not panned out within the system that they're trying to play. Do you guys have any ideas for Zion? Yeah, I can see that. I just, I didn't have a deal, but the heat were, were a team that I was eyeballing just in terms of just going 35,000 feet, you know, their culture, them absorbing him.

I think it'd have to be a team that was confident going back to Boogie the way that the Warriors were like, we know we can absorb the Marcus Cousins because what we have here is so stable. That's that would have to be. But it also would have, there's some teams that I just don't think would break their, their code. You know, I just, there's, and I feel like Miami. is one of the teams that's confident enough that they might try to do it. But this is the catch 22

is Miami is confident enough to want to do it, but will they ever be desperate enough to actually do it? It's like there's a very fine line between believing you can bail yourself out of a situation, but also if you could, wouldn't you have done it already? How desperate do you really need to be, though? You just said Yovic and so, you know, it doesn't seem...

I mean, the heat of turn their noses up at all kinds of talented players over the years because they did not feel like they psychologically fit what they do there and thought they would be like a poor, a poor fit within the workplace. I cannot imagine given what we know about Zion that they would see him as a good fit. Would they see him as a worthy gamble nonetheless? Maybe, but they would have to bend some rules or bend Zion's sheer will in order to make

that thing work. It's so weird because at Duke, he played like, Shoshchewski's a yellow, man. And like, that was a pretty accountable environment. And it's just really strange. It's not the on-court stuff that I think anybody in Miami would be worried about. On the court, you live with what he can't do or won't do. It's everything getting him on the court that's usually the problem. Right.

Yes. He would be available for 20 games and it would just be the same cycle all over again. I think that the point we're ultimately circling here is it seems like there's an opportunity to be a seller in this market, especially if the east is going to be this deep. Like if all 10 teams think they have a shot, there's a clear opening for a seller. will the Pelicans be that? I think they should to a certain degree because they're definitely not playing for anything. They're not going to reap anything from their draft pick,

but we'll see because there's definitely a lot of scuttle butt out there. Yeah, even if it just means, you know, trading Sadiq Bay and a couple of these other supporting players and not even touching the train Murphy class. I think it could be worth their time. I think even in the West, if you're a team that's a little worried about your size matchup against the Rockets or the Nuggets,

Kavon Luni is just like sitting there getting DNPCDs for the Pelicans. And I think he, like, that, that Burl alone could be useful to you. And he has a team option for next season that gives you an easy out if you need to trade him or move on.

I think that's something that team should look into. Like, I want, I want a designated body to throw in front of Stephen Adams, frankly. That's true. All right. Why don't we wrap it there?

The next time I see you, boys, we'll all be in one room together. Kyle and I are flying out to L.A. to join Rob, sleeping on his couch. We're going to tell a horror story. at night and make some popcorn. Are you ready for that, Rob?

I'm thrilled about it. I mean, should we coordinate matching outfits or are we just doing the matching pajamas when you guys sleep over? You hate matching outfits. We tried to do this in Indiana with the jerseys and you went along with it, but you're like, never again. That wasn't a matching outfit. You love a bit outfit.

That's a very different thing. Yeah. I still have my sign, Damon Bailey and he had a Pacer's jersey too, by the way. Hell yeah. Every day I kind of pick it up and look at it and I'm like, not today, Damon. my Pacers jersey, my Brad Miller Pacer's jersey got rehomed to the great Trey Kirby,

who I hope is treating it quite well. And I would expect nothing less given he's the foremost Brad Miller fan. That's beautiful. But yeah, we'll be out there doing two separate pods, one on Sunday, one in the middle of the week,

something special for you in the middle of the week. We're pretty excited about it. But we'll catch you next time on Sunday, as usual. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely, both for staying up late for us

to get into this hot cup action. We'll be back. Next time, we'll talk to them. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. Call 1-88-889-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MDGamblinghelp.org in Maryland.

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