The Ringer NBA Show - The Knicks’ Coaching Crossroads and KD’s Next Chapter | Real Ones

Episode Date: June 14, 2025

Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard mf’n Beck are back with another Friday edition of Real Ones. Who will be the next head coach of the New York Knicks? After firing Tom Thibodeau and seemingly being denied the opportunity to speak to the head coach of any other franchise in the NBA, what direction will they go in? Does Leon Rose deserve the benefit of the doubt, even though it doesn't seem like he has a real plan? Kevin Durant and the Suns are reportedly working on a trade to his next destination, but what’s the cost for the 36-year-old superstar? KD’s career has also been a bit nomadic. How will his legacy be defined after yet another move? Plus, the mailbag! Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard BeckProducers: Clifford Augustin and Victoria Valencia (0:00): Zach Lowe Show Trailer (0:38): Intro W/ Logan Murdock (1:18): State Farm Ad Break (1:45): Show Start (5:20): Knicks Coaching Crossroads (20:40): Fan Duel Ad Break (23:21): Kevin Durant’s Next Chapter (47:23): Mailbag The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit ⁠www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hit the mailbag! ⁠[e-mail]⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe show. That's right. I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games. Yeah, the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the trades, the playoffs are coming up. And now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show.

on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcast. Let's go. What's good? This is Logan Murdoch here. Welcome to another edition of Real Ones. We have a great show popping for you today. The NBA finals has been great, but we're not going to talk about that as much today because by the time you get this, it's probably going to be game time. So we're going to talk a little Nick's coaching search. What the heck are they doing? It's weird, right? You fire a coach, and then you have no plan of action. Then we're going to be. going to talk about Kevin Durant in the legacy of his career and what that means for this trade season and where he's going to go potentially for a train? Who knows? All that and more on real ones with

myself, Rajabelle and Howard Blip Blip Beck. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need, you could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, but first, Cliff, play the theme music. It's popping for real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Howard Beck is in the motherfucking cut, ladies and gentlemen, and I just want to just put a wellness

check here on the podcast before we get to Nick. and KD and some evergreen storylines. I don't have to do anything with the finals because this is going to come out during game four and everything we probably would say about the finals. We'll probably know in void by the time this podcast comes out. First of all, Howard, are you okay? And are you having fun in Indianapolis?

I'm okay. I've been better. I've been sharper. I've been soberer. Might have been a little bit. Overer. might have been a little bit of a late night in downtown indie um might still be shaking off some cobwebs might but uh i'm gonna get through it because you know i'm a gamer and this is you know we

we we play all year for this time of the year and uh you know um i'm gonna bring it that's right you're a pro sometimes sometimes the best games are had off of not feeling great i don't necessarily mean hungover i mean like you could have the flu you know and you're not, you're feeling shitty and you walk into building and now, now you really got to be on point, Howard. So like, I expect nothing less. This is my foot, pot. I'm not going to, um, devolge where Howard was for the debauchery that ensued where he was at. But I will say this.

It was hilarious when Roger came on to the call and he saw Howard and was, was, was privy, began to get privy to the information and just a wide smile went to his face. It's just just People are going to think this is so much worse than it is by the way I just want to make it clear This has not involved like Strip clubs or anything else in that neighborhood Or anything else that's actual debauchery It was just a little bit too much alcohol

Hanging out with certain people Yeah just good times Just good times Yeah Just good times by the way I am a fan of anyone having good times I'm for good times let's get it By the way in the limited experience

At time that I've had with Rajah He's up for a good time. He's, he's Mr. You know what, fuck it. Yeah. I mean, I,

I've had a good time or two. I'm, I am now close to 50. Good times don't feel as great the next day. But like, yeah, I've had a time or two. Do you do the,

do you do the lick and talking to the eyebrows? Are you at that stage yet of life or not anymore? Where are we at? How are we feeling? Are you there, Roger or not? No, no, no, no.

Like I told you, bro, I've got to travel all week next week. I'm at the stage of life where I'm prepping for that. Immunity shots, vitamins, proper hydration. Like, that's 45 plus. Okay? So I'm in prep mode for a week-long trip. You know, this pot is really just cosplay for your old heads, giving me and Cliff and Victoria game on how to become adults one day.

You know, it's really all this. It's really who we're at right now. But speaking of not having adults in the room, the New York Knicks. Wow. We're here. We're here. So I want to start with the Raja on this because last pod, it was the beginning of the, I don't even

know what you want to call it that's going on with the New York Knicks. And Raja's, you know, third eye rah here was like, yeah, man, there has to be something more going down, right? Because at the time, all the information that we had had at the time was that Tibodeau got fired and that they are looking for a new coach. Apparently, that means they're going to scour the league for coaches that are, one, employed, and two, in good standing with their organization, and three, have no chance of going to them, which means, in your eyes, they don't have a plan. Raja, what does this tell you? What are the tea leaves telling you about how this is going

from someone a thousand miles south in Miami who kind of watches the league and has been a part of it. What does this tell you about what's going on the next organization right now? Dysfunction, disconnect, at least to some degree, I'm not saying total dysfunction.

They've been a lot better as an organization lately. I think it speaks to some level of disconnect or dysfunction probably between ownership and executive. Um, they're, this is, you asked me to read tea leaves. Like, obviously there's no evidence other than what I'm looking at to suggest this. But like I, Leon Rosen, those guys don't really strike me as, as, as, uh, as incompetent, right? Like, they just, they've done a very good job over the last few years. This is, this speaks to incompetence. You hopped out. You just went to the Eastern Conference finals like Tibbs for whatever he may have been lacking. in New York Knicks fans' eyes. He did, you know, preside over the organization doing things in the last five years that they haven't done, what, in the last couple decades, probably.

So like to hop out with no plan in terms of replacement for him and fire him, I think either speaks to what I just said or what I said a pot or so ago, which was there might have been something personally that happened between Tibbs and someone else within the organization, namely someone in that executive office for them to just part ways like that. Other than that, it doesn't make any sense to me. What did you read on this, Howard, resident, you know, former New York beat, New York Knicks beat writer? I'll start with this as just kind of a data point, right? Because I've been doing this a long time. And I have never seen a team be, go and investigate, ask for, and be turned down by five different teams to speak with their

currently employed and under contract coaches. It's very rare in the first place at all in the NBA for a coach who is under contract to be freed from that contract to go to another team. We saw it happen with Jason Kidd going from Brooklyn to the Bucks about 10 years ago. we saw it happen with Doc Rivers going from Boston to the Clippers. We refer to these as being traded, but the coaches don't get traded. You're giving compensation to the team to let them out of their contract effectively. And it happens once in a blue moon, like once every, you know, 10, 15 years. So it's not even, so the whole maneuver of trying to hire a coach who's already under contract with another team is rare.

trying to do it five times and not even getting permission to speak to any of them is is just bizarre i don't even know how to classify it because i've just never seen this like what exactly are you doing like it's one thing to fire tibs there were you know cases for cases against whatever there's a case to say that if you're going to fire a coach who's as accomplishes tibs you better have somebody lined up already i'm not sure i'm convinced of that last part but like at least have a decent plan for how you're going to then identify who your new coach should be. And there are plenty of coaches who are available right now, as in not under contract, who do not need permission granted. Why are you going and asking about all the coaches

who are already under contract? Like, I just, it's strange. And I don't know what it speaks to other than, you know, Rajas use the dysfunction word, the D word. Like, that has been the most apt adjective for that franchise for most of the last 25 years, except for the last five when they've actually been very solid. And this feels like they're backsliding. I just want to push back a little bit, Howard.

Like, I, you're not willing to say you agree with knowing where you're going to go if you're going to fire. I'll say, you better fucking know where you're going to go. You better have some idea of what you want to do if you're going to fire Tibbs. Now, you know, Jason Kidd could have been, included in that group of people, but that group of people better have been identified and at least

some of them not being tied to another franchise. Yeah. No, no, no. I don't mean you shouldn't have a plan for how you're going to approach the search after you fired him. I just mean like you don't, I don't think you necessarily have to know exactly the guy. Like it doesn't have to be like we're firing this guy because we already have this other guy lined up. Like that would be ideal. But if you think that you just reached the end of the road with Tibbs for whatever reason, it's not that you need to have somebody else lined up specifically. You just need somebody who's going to give you the things that you thought Tibbs did not, right? I agree with that.

Okay. Like if you have a list of like four or five young coaches that want to refresh your, fine. Yeah. Yeah. But they got to be at least one of the people that you're targeting has to be getable. Also, listen, this is a tampering league. Everybody fucking does everything through back channels.

You should have already known whether or not you could get some of these guys broken free. Yeah, like we didn't do our due diligence on that shit? Yeah. So to do this... This is elementary shit though. Yeah. That's the thing. It all just looks really clumsy and embarrassing frankly. What does this do

for... I mean, if you're a player, Roger, right? If you're Jalen Brunson, you are McKell Bridges who is in line for an extension at some point. Every day that this goes, on, it feels like you get a little bit more antsy about where things stand. Because the thing that Tibbs brought that up until this point, Leon Rose is bought, is stability.

And we don't have all the answers yet. But every day that goes by, that stability is cracking. And that foundation is cracking. And you're starting to get antsy. And now we're going to get into the draft. And now we're going to get into the offseason and free agency where we have to, you know, pitch people on, you know, like I said, Backell Bridges for an extension. You're having to

present yourself as a functioning organization after years and years of dysfunction. You're a player. Are you nervous right now? Are you like, what the hell? Are you... No. Or are you just enjoying your vacation at this point? Yeah, right now, bro, I'm on a beach somewhere, you know, just hanging out with the people that I did not get to spend enough time with during the season.

You're doing what Howard did last night. Yeah, yeah. For sure. I'm not. really concerned with that. I think, you know, for the most part, an extension's not going to be affected by the coach. Like, you're going to, you know, they're, I think those are independent of each other. I would just say, though, the longer, the longer it drags on, you know, the more you get a sense as a player of instability. And, you know, the more questions you have to answer in regards to it, obviously, the more it, the more it becomes, you know, kind of forefront in your mind. And the stability word is critical man like i it's just a critical component of of success is is having stability and

even you know as a pro there weren't there weren't a lot of things that i felt like were fair for me to ask of an organization all the time like because every organization is run differently and and philosophically people have you know different things but what i did think was fair to ask of an organization and what i saw in organizations when i could control it was stability Like when I sign places because the few and rare opportunities I had to sign contracts, yeah, sure, money was a factor. Don't get me wrong. But stability was really important. At least it was a priority for me.

And when you don't have that, you know, it just sucks. It makes your work, it makes your work life, you know, less enjoyable than it should be. Whenever I think about this and whenever there's dysfunction, it feels like even in the coverage of what's going on right now, it seems to veer less on the plate of Leon Rose and more on the plate of James Dolan. And how much of a, of a, how much of a hand do you think that he would have in this just

as earlier as we are right now, right? Like, because it feels like because of the historic, uh, dysfunction that we've had under Dolan and we've seen under Dolan with the Knicks, it seems like, you know, that throws a little shade on, to Leon Rose and it kind of gives a shield to him. Does Leon Rose deserve that shield at this point?

Does he deserve the benefit of the doubt because of Dolan's action over the last few decades? Leon Rose in his front office deserve the benefit of the doubt because of everything they've done for the last five years. This has been the longest period of stability and competency and success that they've had in a very long time. And I think Leon Rose deserves a ton of credit for that. I see what's going, or I look at what's going on over the last week or so. The Tibbs firing, this very haphazard search for his successor.

I look at it all. And yes, it does kind of remind me of the bad old times of, you know, 2000 through 2019 or into 2020 before they hired the unrose. This is feeling a little bit too much like the old Knicks. But I'm trying to reserve judgment because there's a scenario here where they land, on whoever their coach is going to be. That person comes in, does as good or maybe even a better job than Tibbs did with a team that's stocked with a lot of good talent. They make a couple of tweaks to the bench to get a little more depth. Maybe the next coach plays the bench a little bit more.

And they might just be fine. Like there's a scenario here where everything is just fine. And all of this is just a weird blip. But I do think this is like a fragile moment for the franchise. because while I'm not ready to just jump headlong into, this is all Dolan, Dolan Fire Tibbs, Dolan's the one behind all this clumsy search or whatever, all of that is possible, but we don't know yet. And I think people, it's easy just to go straight to that and say, well, this must just be Dolan's back to his bad old ways.

And, you know, to the point that some others out there have made, like Dolan was really busy with the sphere for a while. And maybe that's why he was so hands off. and now that the sphere is up and running and succeeding, like he's back to micromanaging the Nix. Like, it's a fun theory. It tracks chronologically. I don't know.

It's interesting. I'll just say that we'll, let's see how this, the rest of this coaching search unfolds, who they land on. Let's see if there's any other indications of, of the owner possibly meddling in other stuff. It feels like that might be the case. But like I say,

I think people are, understandably jumping to that conclusion because of the past, I'm not ready to go there yet. Let's see where this goes. But I do think it's a delicate time because if he is meddling again in the way he used to and if all of this is him, that's a really bad sign for Leon Rose. It's a really bad side for the franchise in general.

What's the best for all our Knicks fans, including the one we love the most? What's the best case scenario for this summer? And what's the worst case scenario for this summer, Howard Beck? The best case scenario is kind of more or less than one I just outlined. The best case scenario is you hire maybe it's a Taylor Jenkins, a Mike Brown, somebody who's accomplished who's been around, who you know is a really solid coach who's going to come in and do at least just as good a job as Tibbs did or maybe even better.

There are plenty of good coaches available out there who are not under contract. You could hire. Um, so. Yeah. Um, so you hire, you hire somebody. They come in. They just, they just do the job. Um, the same team comes back pretty much. You add a couple of pieces. You get a, you add to your bench depth and you make another deep playoff run next spring. Like, there's, there's your best case scenario. I mean, is there a, is there a finals run in them? Possibly. Uh, let's see what they do with, with the roster. Because I think they still need some upgrades there, too. nothing dramatic, but they could use some, obviously, some depth.

The worst case scenario is this coaching search drags on even longer. They, you know, I mean, they could hire somebody who doesn't fit. That's one possibility. I think the bigger concern, if you're asking me for like, just like, fantastical worst case scenarios, is there a scenario here where things get really off the rails and the players lose faith and Jalen Brunson asks out? Or the new coach doesn't want to keep Rick Brunson on staff or something? or there's some fight about that because by the way that's looming there too like i i don't know

which of tibs of staff is back but i think rick brunson is almost an automatic right so what's that i was just thinking is there a scenario when uh if um rick brunson is the coach no i don't think so okay okay i mean i mean i'm just saying he just won a lot of influence on that staff who knows um i mean could i don't know i don't know like if I don't know the dynamic in that way, but like, I mean, shoot, you know, the Vex's in my backyard, and I know that's a Veckean move. And, you know, it seems dysfunctional. And, hey, he's a, he is a person that's been on that staff for a long time and,

or not for a long time, but he has influence over the team's best player. And, hey, I do remember that one, uh, that one, um, skirmish that happened with Dante Divenschenjo in the bench. And that was weird. And believe that Dante Divenjo, he went and looked towards Rick Munson and was like, this is all on you. All this is all. you. And it's just to show the influence that he will. So that's why I'm going.

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. But I think that the worst case scenario is more about do the players still believe in what the franchise is doing and does Jalen Brunson specifically. And you know, obviously Jalen Brunson is really, really close to Leon Rose. So but he was also really tight with Tibbs. And I can't imagine this has gone over well with him, any of this. So that's, that's, you know, that's the thing I would. keeping that. Okay. All right. Let's take a break and we're going to talk about on Kevin Durant. The NBA finals are here and it's all come down to this. And fan duels turning the excitement up even more

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And we are back. I know I said we were talking about Kevin Durant, but I saw all the tickers that Russell Westbrook is declining his option. Nuggets, his player option, he's going to be a free agent. Show us the money. Yeah, you want that, you want to, uh, show us the money. You want the commission on a, um, on a vet minimum? Roger.

You wouldn't mind that. What, the commission? I take the commission. Unavit, but why not? Yeah, that boy's day. Listen. Yeah, whatever. Let's go.

Let's go to Kevin Durant. Let's go, man. You don't want to talk about Russ? No, not today. That's it. Okay. All right. All right.

Where's Rush playing next season, Roger? I have no idea. I don't know. Yeah, vet, vet minimum. I mean, you can play live places. I don't know. It might be it for him. Not a chance.

Okay. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, clip, if I'm wrong, right, here I am. Okay. Hey, Cliff, clip that for our, um, worst takes episode. Just a case. Just a case. Yeah, just a case.

Just a case. Yeah, I'm not running for that. You know what I mean? All right. All right. I'm not telling you he's going to win a championship next year. But like, I, yeah, I can't imagine that he declines his option, not knowing that he, that there's going to be a market.

I can't, can't imagine. Okay. Let's get to Kevin Durant, who has been a polarizing figure throughout the time of this podcast. So Brian Winters and Shams, friends of the show, say that he is going to get traded around the draft and it's going to happen really fast. There's been whispers about him going to the spurs. There's also been whispers around the league. You know, like Minnesota might be kicking the tires.

There's always, you know, the rockets were in the sweepstakes for a time during the season and linked to them and so many different things. Howard, where do, in your mind, do the Kevin Durant sweepstakes where are they at this point? Not where is he going, but where are they at this point? And what does that say about Kevin and where he is at his career?

So we're taping this on June 13th, right? We're a couple weeks out from the draft, a few weeks out from free agency. Every team in the NBA, aside from the two who are playing right now, can engage in trade talks and can make trades. I'm not saying I expected necessarily a trade have happened by now. I do think it's interesting that we're this deep. And this applies to the

Yanis thing, too, that we're this deep into the summer or this deep into the off season for most teams. And we do not have really a good read on the situation, either of the situations, but talking about Durant for now. Like, I think, I don't want to read too much into this, but this idea they're going to trade him by draft night, it suggests a certain urgency by the Sons, or maybe it suggests a certain desire by the sons to create urgency because they're trying to create the market. And the reason I think that that is one possible read of this is because Kevin Durand is 37 years old in September. He's a few years removed or several years removed now from the Achilles. And he's recovered better than anybody, I think an NBA history is recovered from an Achilles, especially at his age.

But he is 37 in September. And he's on a one-year contract. and he might want an extension. And whoever's trading for him, you're not trading for prime Kevin Durant. You're trading for end of his career last year or two or three at most, years of his career. And he's a rental.

And you're not bringing him in as a franchise savior. You're not bringing him as the franchise cornerstone. You're bringing him in as a complimentary star. So that limits it to teams that already have a star or two and think they're won Kevin Durant away from a championship. And so the pool of teams that fit that description is pretty small. I also think that, you know, this is not, this is not, you know, a few years ago when Matt Ishbia was willing to trade every single pick he had and every single swap he had, plus Cam Johnson and McGale Bridges, to get Kevin Durant.

The team trading for him now, trading for a 37-year-old Kevin Durant on a. expiring contract post-Akeles and as a rental for a year or two is not going to want to give up that much. And yet the Sons are in a position where they're at least partially trying to save face in all this. Like you know you're not recouping all those picks, but you need to make a respectable deal. So there's a, I think there's a huge gap here between the acquiring team and the trading team, whoever the acquiring team is, because I don't think any team is going to want to give up a ton for Durant for this version of Durant at this stage of his his career. So I think this is a really difficult, I think there are plenty of teams that want him,

but I think the market for him is soft in the sense of like, I don't think teams are going to want to trade a ton of assets to get him. And I think it makes it really tough to make a deal. And it's why I, I know, I could be wrong, but I'm skeptical that anything's getting done by or on draft night. The clear answer here is to just trade. Just trade the farm and start from scratch. You need draft picks, man. Like, do whatever you can do at this point to get draft picks and accumulate that and build from the ground up. I mean, this roster is what it is.

You've been around the league in and around the front offices and also as a player. Could you speak to the ego that's probably that it is with teams and front offices that want, even that want to win at all costs but aren't going through the specific processes to actually do that but they still want to do it like how do they how do they how do they reconcile their need to win with the with the patients that it takes to actually do it um yeah i don't know dude like that i think that's each each case would have a different answer as to you know how someone how someone approaches that um the better teams or the better run organizations do it less with ego and more with just a level of business acumen and understanding of kind of you know where you are and what what needs to be

done take take the feelings you know out of it um you know matt matt ishby is maybe a little different just because of the way he came in and how quickly things were moving. But, you know, if you were a team like the heat who's always kind of right around it, who's always really competitive, you know, I kind of maybe understand that a little bit more, you know, and even we've had the conversation about them kind of needing to, at least in my estimation, you know, pivot and get out of that middle area, if you will. But like, you're always around it in a way that I kind of understand. the sons aren't always around it in that way, or at least lately, haven't been. So I think there should be a little bit more clarity in terms of what needs to be done,

removing the ego from the situation and approaching it as a business. I don't know if I answered your question, Logan, because it's, it's, everybody's different in that, man. I think, but the best, you know, the best, the best, the best ones to do it, take, they take the ego out. Like, this can't be about the ego. It's got to be about what's best for the franchise. the future of the franchise. You got to approach it like a sound business person. Do you think Phoenix can handle, if you just tell Phoenix like, hey,

in the community, hey, we're, we're, we tried our best. Yeah. We did what we needed to do and we need to just pivot right now. And might be bad for a couple years, but, you know, that's what it is. You're bad anyway. I mean, you're no fucking good right now. So like, what, what are we talking about? Like the, yeah, no, will the community love, you know, some of them are going to,

It's, this is every decision that's made is going to fall into this, right? Some people are going to love it. Some people are going to hate it, right? And then we're going to see where the chips fall at the end of it as to what the final judgment on it's going to be. This is no different. Some people would be like, yeah, dude, we had to, man. We weren't going to anywhere with this. Some people are going to be like, no, you can't get rid of Devin Bookerbrough.

He's homegrown. It's Debook. Like, some people are going to do that. And then the bottom line is, can you execute in a way that moving forward puts you in a better position? So in like three, four years, everyone's sitting there saying, hey, guys, guess what? It worked. And if you can do that, then you're doing your job. But like I'd argue it's not like you're tearing down something that is viable and winning games.

You're not. It's pretty depressing. I mean, when I went out there in April, it was, and I wrote about it for the ringer, guys go check out that piece. It felt pretty just sad, you know, all the way around, not only from, you know, in the building, but outside. if you look at the fan base. Like they knew it was more like, damn, how did this not work out? And we're not talking about Kevin Durant. Howard, they still got to trade Bradley Beal somehow, right?

They still got to figure out how to get up off of that contract. This is a really, this is going to be a really strenuous summer for the suns. But I want to get back to Kevin really quickly. Something that we talked about yesterday on the phone was KD's, his decision not to want to go to Golden State, right, in the trade deadline. And we understand why, right? Like, just don't want to go back to, you know, that environment. He knows it well.

Doesn't want to necessarily also want to leave in the offseason. I think that was, I think that was just him saying that. I don't think, and my heart of hearts don't think he wants to come back for a variety of reasons, including just, you know, how he left the warriors. It left a bad taste in his mouth. but more than anything, if he would have gone to the Warriors, it feels like he would have gotten everything he would have wanted, right?

He would have gotten the extension. He would have gotten, you know, the built-in love, like similar to like how LeBron gets, where he can't get paid, you know, because he's going to be an institutionary piece in that organization. Wherever he goes now, he's not necessarily going to have that, right? It's like, how does he navigate a new place

where he is this nomadic figure, but he doesn't really have any ties to any organization he goes to, and they don't have any incentive to really take care of him at this age. So, like, how does he navigate that? Well, it's a great question because it also goes back into why I think a trade is so difficult. It's the last piece of this that I didn't mention before, which is you have to have a team that wants him that thinks they're one Kevin Durant away from a title that has the assets, whatever those assets are, and can make that deal and might be willing to extend him.

and oh by the way does Kevin Durant want to be there? Because even though he doesn't have the ability to thwart a trade, there's no no trade clause or anything, but you're not going to trade for a guy if he doesn't want to be there, right? Like the Warriors decided not to trade for him because they found out he didn't want to be there. Okay. I'm not saying that that's going to happen with another team, but like, you know, because there were specific baggage

related to the Warriors, but Kevin Durant has to want to be on your team. So that is one more complicating factor as the sons are trying to figure out where to send him. And that goes to what does Kevin Durant want at this stage? And I think that's been one of the more difficult kind of parlor games of the last several years is as Kevin Durant goes to Brooklyn with Kyrie, things don't go the way that anybody wanted there. He demands a trade. The nets decide not to trade him. Then he demands a trade again.

and they finally do trade him to Phoenix, and it hasn't gone well there. And I'm not saying that's all on Kevin Durant. I'm just saying after making all the moves and some of the power moves, frankly, that he's made. Like, what does he want at this stage? And I think that that's the thing that everybody has to try to ascertain. You know, what does Kevin Durant want in this final stage of his career? And, you know, I'm sure he's going to say, you know, it's actually, I won't, I won't say it. I'll take that back. He has said, and including said, to me earlier this season when I asked him about it. Like, championships are so hard to get that you have to understand at a certain point, especially if you won a couple, that it can't just be like just championships or bust. Like, you know, there's a little bit of like the joy as in the journey kind of approach for him. And I think he'll, if he's just happy playing basketball somewhere with teammates that he's enjoying being around and it's competing at a high level and they have a chance to make a run, sure, but I don't think he's going to be like some championship or bust ring chasing kind of player.

I don't think that's who, that's not the way he carries himself. And I don't think it's what he's about right now. And you have that luxury when you have won a couple of championships. But he's also not going to want to, you know, go play for some lottery team, of course. So, but what does he want? What, like, what kind of role does he think he wants to play? What kind of stars does he want to be with? What kind of coaches he want to be with?

Logan's got a rye grin on his face because I think he's got ideas. But, like, I just, I think it's, I don't know what the answers those questions are, but I think that they will help guide where this ultimately goes. I have a smile on my face because that's been the eternal question of Kevin Durant's careers. What the hell do you want? What do you want? You know? What will fulfill you?

All of that. It's just a fascinating, just person and player and all of these things. I just, I don't know what's going to happen. And Howard, what is, like, how are we going to look back on this guy, man? Because he's this, he's obviously a player that at his highest was one of the defining players of his generation. And, you know, at times was the best player of his generation weirdly. And now he's just going to, this, this, this ending doesn't seem like it's supposed to happen for a player of his magnitude. Some people balk at this construction.

But like, Kevin Durant, at minimum is right after Stefan LeBron is the defining players. of this era, right? Stefan LeBron have more rings. They have bigger followings in some regard. They've had, you know, a little bit less, maybe a little less drama around them. LeBron's generated plenty of that, too. I think the complication for Kevin Durant is, yeah,

this back part of the career where, you know, he chose to leave Golden State, despite having won back-to-back championships and back-to-back finals MVP's. and fitting in really nicely. Like I know there was a lot of personality stuff where we could say like he didn't fit and he and Draymond, you know, had their tensions

and I think Kevin Durant and Kerr maybe or the organization. But he had success, the most success he's had. And he chose to leave it. And then the place he chose to go to, Brooklyn, didn't work out the way he wanted to and he chose to leave there. And so I think it's fair for people to kind of critique the back end of his, career where you know, you walked away from the most successful situation you've ever been in.

And now you're just kind of wandering the desert a little bit, like literally in Arizona. I, uh, and I'm, listen, the details fade away when we talk about legacies. Like most of like, we just scroll through the list of like all time greats in the NBA. Yeah, we rarely start talking about, like, oh, what the guy did in the last three or four years of his career or, or this thing that happened early on with this battle with this coach or whatever. We don't talk about this stuff. We just say like, you know, how many all-MBAs, how many all-stars, how many championships, how many MVPs, how many points, where did he rank on all these all-time lists? How awesome was he to watch? That should probably be the top of the list. How incredible of a player

was he was. And I think with Kevin Durant, eventually all the stuff that we're talking about right now with this kind of just messy last several years, it will fade a little bit. We'll focus more on just like the greatness of Kevin Durant. But for right now, those things still matter because there's still one more chapter here to be written. And it's not clear what it is. What do you think we're going to, how do you think we're going to look back on Katie, Roger? Fuck if I know. I don't know.

I mean, he's, but look, Katie is a great, a great player, man. Like he's, he was, or is a, you know, like an enigma to some degree. agree, right? Like, you know, I think it's going to be hard for people to separate, like, who he is as, like, a person and as a, as a, quote, unquote, like, competitor. Like, a lot of people want you to, they define your competitive spirit by the way they define, like, by what they want you to be. Like, if that makes sense, I don't know if I'm making that clear, but, like, Kevin Durant is a competitor of the highest sorts. Because he doesn't seek the same things every time there's a transaction made that a fan wants him to see.

Like I think it's going to be hard for people to separate the player from some of those decisions, if that makes sense. But as a player, fantastic. Like unicorns before we started calling people unicorns. When you came into the league, the things he could do with a basketball at the size, length, skill combination, absolutely incredible. One of the best scores ever, you know, a champion, you know, whether you agree with how he got him or not.

Who gives a shit? I don't know how people are going to see Kevin Durant when it's all said and done. But I know those things are true. Like, and I use, I use Enigma because, you know, like, look, man, like he, he is a little weird, right? Like, you know, I'm better than me. Logan. I mean, I say that affectionately. I don't think that's a bad thing.

He just kind of marches to the beat of his own shit. And I don't really, I don't really have a problem with that. Like personally, I know how we want our stars to act. I know how we, you know, as a media cover them and as a fan base, you know, would like to see them all the time. And some people conform to that. Some people don't even have to conform to it because it's just who they are. Some people aren't that. And that's okay.

Yeah. It's interesting that when Howard said what he said just about, you know, Kevin just being, you said he goes barters to the beat of his own drum roger. But Howard was just talking about like just how he purports himself. he's definitely a guy that is like leans into being that nomad of a person just in all ways right like I remember I talked to him in Phoenix

when he first got there he was like yeah the wind just blew me here you know I'm just I'm in Phoenix now and I'm doing that and I think it's something that's just been like that since his childhood and

if he's okay with that then that's pretty much the only thing that matters it just seems like because I remember I asked him a question this is when he was in Brooklyn and I asked him like, yo man, how do you feel that like you might not even, you know, when it's all said and done,

you know, you might not be a part of such and such organizations, right? Like you might not be in the fabric of it because you've moved around so much and you've had weird endings. And he said, no, man, I'm a proud of every single franchise that I've played for. You know, I'm going to get my jersey retired by the warriors,

the thunder. He said at the time the Nets, which was hilarious and probably will not happen. But he kind of, he's kind of always been this way. And when I think about, you know, the competitiveness part, he is a guy that loves basketball.

And I'm not saying he doesn't love winning. He loves the art of just playing basketball and being on the floor. Roger, you're perking your ears. You feel what I'm saying, no? Like he loves the art of, basketball as a means of a sport and not and whatever it takes him is where it takes them it's not about being the greatest yeah that's you know it's interesting that you said that because and it's a

great point it's where i was going to go it's what he strikes me as he's used the term art before i've heard him speak of it in terms of art um and craft him and kairi both right now they are different um but but they both talk about the craft and the art of it and and specific to KD, I mean, he carries himself in a way that at least I think artists carry themselves. I don't know too many artists. Like they, at least they project me just kind of flexible, go with the flow. I, you know, I set up shop. I see beauty in this.

I could, you know, and I can do this over here and my canvases. You know, they just kind of. Boris Dio. Free spirits. Real free spirits. Boris is an artist. Like trust, like this is deep though. But Boris, Boris was in.

like Boris is a real artist. Like he sees the beauty and things in a way that don't like, it's just not that serious all the time to him, right? Like when he's out there, he's trying to win. And he wants to get a championship and he has him. But like, he's just got, you know, he's more evolved. Like he's got more shit going on. Bro, that's not like what defines him as a human being.

And KD kind of strikes me as that. And specific to basketball, you know, he is your, your, your, your Picasso's, your, your, your, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't know a ton of artists and shit like that, but he's at, he's at the highest level of that craft, man. Like he, he, he, he does not have to, he can be marching to the beat of his own drum. Yeah. Amongst, amongst a league full of phenomenal players, some more accomplished than him in the, in the ring category. Walk into a gym with them and watch who they defer to. You know what's crazy. You. You know, it's crazy. you said that, Roger, because another quote that he said when he was in Brooklyn when I talked to

him was like, maybe I'm not in the top 10. But if we had a pickup of like the top 10 best players, tell me motherfuckers ain't going to pick me. No, but like that's the freedom that comes with being that. That's the freedom that you see of a dude just saying, hey, man, I'm in Phoenix for a while, dude. Like, you know, and again, I'm not saying that I always agree with that when some of these places are counting on you to be the franchise, right? Like I don't know that that necessarily fits the bill of what they need. But I don't, I'm not mad at you for being that dude, man. I'm not.

That's who you are. I felt the most free as a player and I felt I could be the best when people just let me be me. When people try to stop me from being who I was, good, bad, or indifferent, right? If it's so bad you don't want me, fucking cut me. Don't have me here. But don't have me here and ask me to be somebody I'm not. Yeah. Yeah.

That's real. Cliff. Squad, what up? Cliff, I just, before we get to bail bag, I got some shit to I got some shit to get off my chest with you, my guy. What's going on? You know what I'm talking about, bro?

I don't. I really don't. We kind of referenced it in the last pod when you said Paul George for KD was good to KD to Philly. Yeah. What the fuck? I thought you were just on the PG bandwagon. You were like, it's all good. We're going to, he did the pod with, with, with Wallo.

and them and gilly and it's all good now and then you just go split sides right now like what's going on i didn't switch side i didn't i didn't switch sides i didn't i didn't switch sides the bandwagon is a little flimsy that's all so therefore i can you can jump off that bandwagon we see some trouble lying ahead so i would take i will happily jump on the kd bandwagon because that bandwagon's been pretty solid it has a good foundation the wheels are still spinning it's oiled up a little bit you know what saying we're still moving. Even after the real philosophical wax poetic conversation we just had, you still want Katie on the squad?

You're down with that? If we got a two-year rental of Kevin Durant and we could pair them up with Joel and B and Maxie and the young guys and, you know, whoever else we might be able to draft, absolutely. I would do that in a heartbeat over having Paul George's contract. Like it's not even, that's a no-brainer to me. Like I would absolutely 100%. Howard, Howard, you feel me on this? Is that, am I speaking factor?

Nah, yeah, you are. Yeah, like, that's not, that's a no brand. I'm not a Sixer fan. So, like, you know, I don't have an investment in any version of this team. I can just sit here and say, like, just rip out whatever you got to rip out just to, you know, get your, your, your, uh, just to get things stabilized into a better direction. But to Logan's point, Cliff, I mean, you were kind of suicide. Yo, I didn't switch size. Like I said.

All right, Cliff. Yeah. What we got on the mailbag, G. The mailbag. All right, this first one. You're going to love this question. This is Pacers from Andrew. Why do all the analysts and potters, including at the ringer, laugh a little when they talk about the very real potential of the Pacers winning it all.

I can't, I think his name is the diss fan on Blue Sky. Howard, he probably follows you. So, yeah, that's a guy's question. Do you say they laugh at it? Yeah, yeah. I'll read it again. Why do all the analysts and potters, including at the ringer, laugh a little when they talk about the very real potential of the Pacers winning it all.

I don't think I ever laughed at it. I did pick Oklahoma in five. Had sound reasons, at least, in my opinion, and a season's body's worth of work to go off of. The Pacers are a really good team. I mean, it's already 1254. I'm not going to go into all of the reasons why they're doing what they're doing in this series, right? this pod was about other stuff, but they're a good team. I don't think, I mean, I didn't laugh at it.

I mean, I, I, I, they were a heavy underdog coming in for a lot of reasons. This is, um, these kind of questions always kind of drive me crazy a little bit. Like, no, I appreciate the listener asking and like, I'll do my best to kind of like, I think explain what I think he's getting at. But like the ask, don't ask me to explain the reactions or takes or whatever of other people. If we laugh, if you heard us on the last pod go, oh, the Pacer's winning the championship, ha, ha, ha, whatever. Like, I don't know what he's talking about, but like, I don't know that's even happened.

I'm not aware of it. I don't know what he's referring to or who he's referring to. But if it's happened, if we did it, then you can ask us why we did it. If somebody else did it, like, what the, I don't, I'm not in anybody else's head. I'm not responsible for anybody else's takes, laughter or tears. I do think what he's getting at is like, there's probably kind of this sense of like, holy crap, it's two to one as we tape this game four tonight there's a very real possibility that i think nobody contemplated other than probably the pacers themselves right like this is going to if they

pull this off go down as one of the all-time great upsets and that's awesome and we will all praise them to the high heavens for doing it and even if they don't win the series i mean the pacer's have done nothing but gain immense respect from everyone around the league in media fans everybody by what they've accomplished. And even by getting to this point and being up two one on a team that by all objective measures had more talent and depth. Like it's, it wasn't supposed to unfold this way. That's the beauty of sports. No one's going to be laughing at that. We look at that and say, like, this is why we watch because it's fun, because it's interesting and because it's not predictable. And because a team sometimes is just better than the sum of

its parts. And what the paces are doing is awesome. So I don't, I don't know what the listeners is specifically referring to other than like people didn't see this coming. But like no one, I don't think that's a negative. I think it's just the reality of, you know, you, sometimes you look, you analyze the best you can. And in this case, like the whole world thought it was thunder in five or six. And the paces are completely upending expectations. Like, that's cool. That's great. So anyway. I apologize for picking a 68 win team to win in five. I apologize.

Wait, but did you laugh at the patience, though? Like, what do you? That's what you're getting at here. Well, I did say that they need Jesus Christ and or Kaylin Clark to win this series. You were just trying to find the shortest way possible to answer the entrance survey questions that our editors sent us. That was, that was just, to be fair. To be fair, yes, I was on deadline. So, okay.

But nobody asks for it. I'm going to pull a Roger and just give it to them anyway. Like when they give out these interest surveys, typically writers are on deadline. And I was on deadline on a story that was like coming out the next day. And they were like, hey, here's an entrance survey. So I said, fuck it. I'm just going to write whatever is on my mind in the shortest way possible to get, who among us hasn't done it?

Right? Like, I'm guilty. Yeah, man. You just kind of give Raja an entrance survey. It might be fuck off. and then, you know, that's going to get published. So, like, you know. Yeah.

It was a good answer. It was a good answer, Logan. I enjoyed it. Thank you, buddy. But I also did say that the paces were going to catch OKC slipping in one game one. I was very happy with that. You know. We're here.

Who cares? Roger, any thoughts? Nope. All right, let's do this last. Let's do this last one. So Rasker here. Let's get this last one. I was checked out 10 minutes ago.

No, I'm good. I mean, I am. I didn't laugh at it. Okay, see, for various reasons. Indiana is doing a great job. Let's get Rasha South Beach, all right. Let's get this last one in. South Beach, brother.

Let's get you to South Beach. I'm going to watch a football workout. I'm going to watch a football workout. How was Mahi fishing? Did not get to, that's a long. So, fuck it.

You guys are, listen, went to the Gulf of Mexico when my boys were probably, my two older boys were probably, my two older boys were probably seven and six in Venice, tuna fishing off of the oil rigs. I think it's like 30 miles out into the Gulf, right? Well, beautiful day, flat water.

We're out there catching caught probably eight yellowfin to, like beautiful day, man, caught a like a 350 pound blue marlin right next to the boat. It was everything. God damn. We stayed out on that water probably 30 minutes past when we should have been there because I was fighting that marlin. So a cold front had pushed in. And when we went back, I literally thought we were going to die.

It's the one time in my life, I was like, I put, I put my family in like a really fucked up spot. Like, thought we were going to die. The boat was the only thing that saved me was I looked at the captain and his mate who could barely hang on to the boat. And they weren't panicking, right? So I'm looking. I got my dad.

I got my two boys. We're all huddled in the bottom of the boat, like hugged up, just hoping. So we get back to land. And I say all that to say that I've been scarred about being on. boats in storms. So when we woke up the other morning at four, you know, we were going to ride down to Island Marada and fish, but it said that storms were coming in at nine and 10. And so my dad and I were like, yo, man, do we get on this boat at 6.30?

We're offshore, probably about 10, 12 miles. They're fucking storms in the area. And both of us were like, fuck that. So we didn't go. It's a good call. Having said that, we woke up at 11, everybody going about their day. the storms had broken apart, and it was a beautiful day fishing in an island maraud

and we missed it. So that's my story. I'm sorry, buddy. Yeah, it's okay. Hey, listen, you give me the choice of a, like, you got to pick, you got 50% of life or death. You go pick life. I'm staying on this short, dog.

I'm not going on. All right. All right. Let's shut it down with this one. The call out resume. This is from, I hope I'm saying this right, Riza Tahiri. So 2002 Pistons,

coach of the year Eastern Conference Finals, 2003. Pacers, Eastern Conference Finals, 2011, Mavs, champion. 2024, Pacer's Eastern Conference Finals. 2025 champion. Where does this 25-year run put Rick Carlisle in the coaching pantheon? Riley, Auerbeck, Jackson, Pop, have all the rings. Would you put Carlis in the Lenny Wilkins tier?

It's hard to make this list when some coaches built up different teams to success and others had a dynasty with a single franchise their entire career. Pop, Spow, Kerr, and Daly are in their own tier. Honestly, our back should be in this tier, too, but I don't want anyone to get fired. Having a loyal superstar and maintaining a team around him is a different coaching challenge than what Riley, Lenny, and Carlisle have done. I will always put Pat Riley above Phil Jackson. Riza, Sacramento. Howard.

Riza, Riza, Riza, Riza, Riza, Shara. Yeah. Shut off, sackedo. What Carlyle has done is, is spectacular. when, you know, whether they win the championship or not. And the interesting thing, too, is like, if you go back and you look, uh, what, what Carlisle did with the Pistons, like, he, he had a great run there. He got fired right before they hired Larry Brown and then they trade for Rashid Wallace.

They go and they win a championship. But like that, that team, this is one of those cases. Like, we talk about this all the time, like, you know, with regard to Tibbs. Like, and we've, we've reached for all these different, um, comparisons of like, you know, when a coach is replaced and sometimes the next coach benefits, but they, maybe there's something else they unlocked. But like, how much credit does Larry? Like Larry Brown gets all the credit and has historically, I think, for that championship,

but Rick Carlisle established a lot of what that team was about. So he's done a great job with multiple teams over the years. And he had, you know, he was coached at the Pacers when Malice at the Palace happened. And that team, you know, they were, they were young and feisty, obviously feisty and really talented and really deep. And like, they had a chance to do some things before Malice at the Palace destroyed that team. So, like, there's some moments in Carlisle's career. where we don't really even get the chance to see what he could have fully accomplished. But he's, you know, he's evolved. He's adapted over the course of his career and he's fully

embraced this like really modern approach to offense that the Pacers deploy. And he's been, he's been incredible. And if he, and if they do win it, like, he will have been the head coach of two of the most shocking championships of the last 20 years and maybe of all time. The, you know, the 2011 Mavericks were not supposed to beat Miami with LeBron and Wade and Bosch. And as we've established, the Pacers were not supposed to win this series against the Thunder, and they might. And just those two championships alone, as two of the biggest upsets in history, puts Carlisle in some category of his own.

So I'm not a Pantheon guy. I don't know where he ranks next to hourback, Bill Jackson, Pat Riley, Chuck Daly, all these guys. but I do think that winning a championship with two different teams spaced, you know, 14 years apart in very different ways. But both of them being the underdogs is incredible. He's a ringer. No doubt. Stud.

Yeah. All right. I think that's my analysis. That's yours. Where you got to go? You got to go to workout or something? No, I don't have to work. I just don't have.

I mean, I don't have much. I don't have. Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. But, like, I don't have a lot on. He's a great coach, though. Like, I would, you know. And, you know, if I would add anything to that, I think his playing, his playing background,

who he, who he was, who he played with, you know, that, that, that, that, that, that, I think all of that goes into his ability to kind of relate to dudes, not just, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the human being and his, his, his touch with his players. I think he's got a great feel for, for, for that. So, that, that would be my addition, contribution. You know, I don't know if you ever deal with this, Roger, but I deal with this after Howard talks. He tells, he, he, he has an ability to say everybody's point simultaneously. We've covered a lot of bases. There we go. It's right there. We're covered a lot of bases, couldn't have said it better myself. You know, no question. I think, I think that was a compliment.

It was. It was. Absolutely a compliment. I'm like, I was about to say. Damn. You know, Howard fucking said it. Well, you could, it could have been like, Beck's been filibustering for five minutes and now I'm just tired and I want to go home and go to sleep. Howard, how are you feeling right now? A little punchy, a little tired. Like I'm probably going to go right to that bed you can see behind me there. Oh, get that good nap, power.

Get that good nap. I need the NBA player. I need the NBA player nap. Yeah. Roger, before we go, how many times have you got the NBA player nap and it's just giving your life? Listen, man, some nice room service and a nap?

Oh, I got to actually. row. Yeah. All right. Yeah, man. You know, hey, that's, that's, let me look at the time about an hour. That's been another edition of real ones, ladies and gentlemen.

We just fill a busted for an hour. We gave you content. You know the motherfucking vibe. We'll see you on Tuesday. Me and Howard on Tuesday. Prop might be an in-person, me and Howard on Tuesday. Who knows?

Raja has some fatherly work to do next week. We will see him very, very, very soon. Talk to you guys. soon. Real onesmailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. We'll be answering your questions on Tuesday.

Shout out to Cliff. Shout out to Victoria. Shout out to all the real ones world. Why I, all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older in select states for Kansas. An affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino.

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