The Ringer NBA Show - The Knicks Survive a Slobberknocker to Take Game 2 | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 6, 2026

(00:00) Justin, Rob, and Kyle fire up the mics immediately after Game 2 of the NBA Finals to talk about the Knicks grinding out a 2-0 series lead. (3:05) The guys discuss the Knicks pulling through despite Jalen Brunson’s struggles, and De’Aaron Fox’s indecisiveness being costly for the Spurs. (17:04) They also discuss the Knicks’ bench coming through in comparison to the Spurs’ bench before getting into the fact that Karl-Anthony Towns has outplayed Victor Wembanyama through two games and whether or not KAT is having his Dirk Nowitzki moment. (47:33) The show closes with potential adjustments Mitch Johnson and the Spurs can make heading into Game 3 and beyond. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Jeff Shearin and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto Buy any two Ferrero Brands and you could win $1 million. Visit GoAllInAndWin.com to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man, Kyle doing kind of like the evolutionary Rob Lowe with the Knicks hat, the Spurs shirt. Love it. You're in the spirit. I'm just committed to the finals. I just love all my children equally, you know, I love them all.

Well, I love this game more than probably any of the game in the playoffs in recent history. Holy shit. Like I'm still kind of coming down from this one. Rob. Yeah, my first reaction, wow, my second reaction, what? My third reaction, really? Like, this is how it's going to happen of all things, Victor Wobin Yama, throwing it off of Stefan Castle's back in a critical moment. I mean, I'm just reminded that if you are a young player on this kind of stage, if you're lucky enough to get to the finals, I mean, the lessons are excruciating whenever they come. And this is one that's going to be living with Victor Womenyama

and Stefan Castle, I would think, for a very long time. That's going to live on. Yeah, that's one of those ones when it happened. You said you were doing the what and I was I did a lot. I did a few oh noes. When Champany that timely foul, I was like, oh, brother, what are you doing? And then, yeah, that, that hurt. You could just see it on Wimby's face that he wanted to like come unraveled. I mean, emotional guy. That's, that's a play that I feel like we're going to remember about him in some capacity going forward. We'll see, we'll see what the income, the outcome is. Well, especially after he like looks distraught, the camera pans. to one of the nuns in the crowd.

And so I was already like, man, this is kind of like a mess, like a second half of a Scorsese movie. Now we've just got the whole experience here. And so just got God factoring in. It was a real, real cinematic situation, I would say. Yeah, but it was like mid-period super religious Scorsese. Like this is bringing out the dead. You know, we're somewhere in like the driving all night at an ambulance

and everybody is ragged. Everyone is haggard. Cut to the nuns. Just at your lowest possible moment. What could be more painful? that. Let's say 30 days of night. What's that movie where the vampire cruelly says, no God? That's what I was going to. That's the one. All right, why don't we take a quick break just to sort things out here? We'll come back,

talk through all the action in the game here. This episode of the ringer NBA show is presented by Ferreiro. The world is watching. Go all in for your team this summer with Ferreiro. Enter for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats. Like Kinderbueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer and creamy hazelnut filling. or Keebler chips deluxe cookies with indulgent and rich chocolatey chunks or Ferrero Rochay squares with crunchy hazelnuts and milk chocolate wrapped in iconic gold. Go All In by any two Ferreiro brands and you could win $1 million. Official rules apply.

Learn more at go all in and win.com. All right. I mean, we took a little break. I don't know if I've fully caught my breath here, but just trying to sort through all of this. I kind of like what Town said in the walk-off interview, Rob, where like things got super messy and we could really just dig through every like nook and cranny of all the mess there toward the end there. But he was like, we built that lead to provide the cushion and it did prove enough. And so I'm kind of caught in between where it's like the Knicks at time

looked so sharp, like so dialed in almost dare I say like past spurs teams with the ball movement and the execution. But like time of the stretch, they just had enough in that chaotic situation to just pull it out. Yeah. I mean, if you want to tug at the strong to see who unraveled when. It was a great game in which both teams were kind of trading off that sort of responsibility with each other. You know, they both had incredible runs. The Spurs had this great 14-0 closing kick to give themselves a chance to win the game in the first place. But you're right, by and large, if you want to zoom out and look at the game as a whole,

I thought this was just an incredible payoff for everything the Knicks have done to get to this point in terms of figuring out all these varied ways to get into their offense. We saw Jalen Brunson doubled. We saw him trapped. We saw him full court press. We saw a decent amount of switching as well. and yet it was just like there was always a way in there was always an avenue whether that was going to cat in the high post or at the top of the floor to make plays whether it was mcale bridges

bring the ball up or being a pressure release landry shamit flashing to the middle of the floor and being more than just a shooter although he certainly shot like shot the shit out of the ball as well they just had answers for all of that stuff and i think yeah you're building yourself a cushion so that if you do have a couple of minutes where you go completely scoreless that's fine too because even when they are scoreless, I'm just finding this Knicks team to be totally fearless. Like they still have an OG and an OB and OB drive bump dunk over Wemby in them,

basically any time they really need it. Yeah, the sort of daunted kind of looking for him stuff is not going on as much. You can see that they really were, you know, the Spurs were trying to funnel those drives to the baseline and just to kind of stay on top. I guess to prevent further ball reversal, whatever the reason was,

but the Knicks repeatedly were ready for that. They looked even on the ones that, weren't successful, whether it was Alvarado or whoever. But I think what we're seeing is maturity, you know, these guys have been through the wars together, obviously, have been through some pretty rough heartbreak together. But I think that is kind of manifesting on the court in the basketball sense where this team, and we were talking about this, John Schumann wrote a really awesome thing about how competent this team is late clock.

And I think you see that just repeatedly. And I was thinking about that a lot during this game where the Knicks just have their wits about them in the second half of the shock in a way where other teams like throughout the playoffs that we have seen, you know, Wimby basically, you know, snaps the, I've got 28 years later on, is he like an alpha snaps the spine out of your, out of the first action of your offense is what typically sends your offense into rotation, you know, and things like that. And Wimby takes that away. He's just like, that's not even going to happen. The Knicks are just acutely set up to be like, we're fine with that because we are so good. And whether that's Brunson, you know, creating

something out of nothing, or we're seeing role players just step up and, you know, Shamitz on a freaking heater like you were saying. I mean, he made huge shots. You know, Bridges time and time again made daggers. But I think that's one of the big thing is just they are so steady. They don't panic in a way that a lot of other teams do. I mean, what we're talking about is precision. And the spurs for as great as they are are not a super precise offensive team. You know, Castle is still like a little bit wild, even at some unfortunate moments. Fox, you know, really stepped up and had some of those great stretches, but also had lulls in the middle of this game. And Harper, I thought we saw some of the limitations when you're really asking him to

create a lot or to initiate within the offense. That stuff wasn't going well for him. It was all the other stuff that kind of panned out. And so you had this incredible contrast of this Knicks team that has so many varied avenues and so many guys who feel like they keep their head on their shoulders, as opposed to the spurs who are a bit feast or famine right now when faced with this level of competition. Yeah, it's funny because the spurs want to play fast, but it almost felt like the Knicks allowed them to tucker themselves out. And they just kind of won the tortoise battle, at least in that first half, where it's like the pressure at first was really making an effect from the spur side of things on defense. And it just felt like slowly and steadily, especially in that second quarter where

things just turned around. I think it was like a 12 point swing over there. I think Spurs only had 18 points in that second quarter where it was a lot of just ball movement and like waiting through some of the initial pressure and just executing off of that. And then once that happened, if they didn't get the shot to go down and they were shooting the lights out, like the rebounding was there. In part, it seemed like because everyone was scrambling from the ball movement and Towns's effect on things. And so like it was really just like dialed in. It's almost like it's like the spurs want to play fast, but the Knicks are born to live in that

chaotic environment in the way that a younger still figuring the way out sort of team, especially Wemby with the Spurs, just like hasn't really caught up and married the two things yet. Yeah. I would say the Spurs did enough to your point, Justin, about like creating that sort of chaos with the pressure,

with kind of jamming things up, with making even the Knicks fly around and execute and execute and execute to we saw their limit as well. Like one basket goes differently and we're talking about all of these elements of the game in a completely different light, right? Then the press is the thing that won them the game. Then the traps are the thing that won them the game.

And so I don't want to like over index or swing too hard on any one of those decisions because they got the spurs where they needed to be. There were just like a few too many costly mistakes. And I want to say that on the opposite end for the Knicks as well, for as much as Jalen Brunson was put through the ringer in terms of all sorts of defensive coverage in this game, to come out of it with only four turnovers. I think it's like a minor miracle. Like he was bad down the stretch.

He almost seemed like he spun himself awe after kind of going toe to toe to with Fox. Like some of it was the pressure. Some of them was just missed shots. But he really seemed off immediately after that confrontation. He was a little bit off. But then the play that I think is going to get lost to history because of, you know, the Spurs turnover is that ridiculous Brunson fade away that tied the game in the first place.

So it's like he did have moments where he was a little bit off kilter as he is ought to do, as the Knicks are ought to be. But he's been one of the best crunch time performers all season and certainly has been in the playoffs. And to deliver that in that kind of moment, there's no putting a price on that. There's no way to barter your way out of it. Like you either had that stuff or you don't.

And the Spurs came up just a little bit short. I think what we're seeing is a crisis of, I don't know what the right word for it would be, but a crisis of who are your creators, basically your legitimate creators, because the Spurs are being pressured in this situation where you're talking about, you know, the, the Knicks thing steady. It's just finding that next guy.

And we debated about like that next guy to step up and we debated about whether or not that's going to be Harper or that's going to be, you know, Fox or it's going to be Wimby. All those guys we're finding have these conditions around how they're effective that are playing a huge part of this series. I think we saw in the fourth quarter, Fox just had this like a yeah, yeah, kind of moment where he realized like, oh, I'm an all-star creator. Like it didn't even seem like it was a super scheme thing. It was just like Fox just.

And I don't know if I was watching the feed where you could see them during timeouts. And I was just really, during the playoffs, it's really fascinating to watch the benches, how they react. And the Spurs, you know, that one they talked about in the broadcast, Wimby was really ripping into some, like he was getting on him. And I wonder, part of that was Fox, like, be more assertive because he seemed unsure of himself where to be assertive. We saw in game one, he'd get into the middle of the lane.

And I've said it, you know, the three, four, five with bridges, the length and the strength and then OG and Kat, he's looked a little unsure. in a way that he has it in the past, getting to that little, like, 10-footer. He was a little more aggressive, but then, you know, you've seen Wimby having a hard time getting to his spots.

And then Harper, who just almost at times feels like a punt returner that they want to get more involved in the offense. That's a great call. It's like, we have this like electric talent. It's like, how do we like build our offense around this thing?

And it's like they're still figuring those things out, but they came close. I don't know if that Fox momentum will continue. Yeah, we should talk about that kind of lineup they ultimately defaulted to down in the stretch. part of it was Castle had early fall trouble. Then he kind of stepped on somebody, but it also seemed like they just didn't put him back in

because they liked the combination that they had. I think you're right. Like Harper was giving them a lot just by running out and executing on some of those leakouts or turnovers, whatever it is. He gave them that extra pop that I think they needed. Like, Rob, do you think that like that's something, I don't want to get too far down the road here, but like that closing lineup is something that maybe they could turn to a little bit more

because it seemed like at the very least, they were their most dangers there as opposed to with Castle. It's tough because they do need Castle's defense, right? Like he does, especially if you're going to end up switching as they kind of fell into doing down the stretch. Like they were trying to trap Jalen Brunson

a little bit less to stay out of rotation. Castle is one of those guys who helps you fight through switches and not just give them up so easily. And Harper can do some of that too. Fox maybe to a lesser degree, but like you really benefit from his physicality and from what he can help bring to that dynamic of the series and these critical stretches.

So you don't want to bail on that kind of defensive importance so quickly. But at the same time, I mean, we talked about this coming out of game one with Harper, too, right? That what he gives you in terms of the full court game is so vital. And I think the play in which in the last couple of minutes, he catches a long rebound, sprints out in transition, and then like hard stops in the paint when he realizes it's like one on three and finds when be trailing for an and one that turned out to be a critical part of the Spurs come back. That's the kind of thing where you don't expect a player his age to make that play. You expect them to try to power through and it's going to be a make or a miss.

I think his discretion and his poise have earned him continued time, continued opportunity. You just have to find ways to keep him on the floor. And if that involves putting all three guards on the floor, I'm open to that. And I think all three of these guys have shown, there's such competitive rebounders, Castle Fox and Vassell is in this category too. And Harper. They weren't competitive enough for me tonight, though. I thought Harper a lot of times tonight, I was like, I was like, you're leaving money on the table.

I know that the rebound number. That's fair. That's fair. But I feel like they could gang rebound even better. I feel like some of the most critical moments of the game where Spurs got a little bit, they're turning the motor. I don't know if you guys have ever like done like a crank start. It turned around a little bit and then it's like, boom, like it just died.

Like I felt like they couldn't quite get it going a few different times because of that. Well, I think there's a compelling argument in that too for exactly the sort of, lost in the sauce rebounding battle that Justin alluded to too, where the spurs are flying around the floor trying to deal with all this pressure that they are creating to Trap Brunson in the first place, and then the Knicks were coming up with all sorts of offensive rebounds because they were just falling in the gaps. Well, this is kind of the battleground we expected going into this series, right?

Where it's like the spurs, they closed this way, that last final possession, where it's those three guards plus Vasell, whether you want to categorize them as a guard or wing, whatever you want to say, plus Wemby. Like, that is their most dangerous lineup, but you look across the way, and like the Knicks they look like they're pretty much all bigger than those guys outside of Brunson. And so like there were stretches where OG just like he's just so fucking massively compared to them. And when he gets it going, he just has like a certain advantage. They even played down a stretch.

I think it was in the third quarter where they went without four of their starters and kind of allowed bridges to kind of just play through him. And it was such a balsy move to begin with. And it really just showed the trust I think Brown has in just like how well things are going. it didn't work down the stretch because when you need to turn to Bridges, I don't think he really acquitted himself all that well. But like they can get away with stretches of Mitchell Robinson bridges as your de facto front court because of that size disparity. And like it showed up in the rebounding.

And I just think like you get enough of those sets where it's like you can really lean on that advantage. Like that's a pretty big swing when every margin is feels like in either game. And I imagine going forward is going to be pretty slim. I thought Bridges during that third quarter stretch with No Townsend O'Brien was unbelievable. He lights out. He made every jumper. Lights out like tough mid-range twos, hit that incredible like curl lob to Mitchell Robinson for a dunk. But in the end,

Town sat almost eight minutes during that stretch because he was in foul trouble and then ended up sitting a little bit to start the fourth quarter. Brunson sat over five minutes during that stretch. I mean, that's God send rest in the NBA finals to get your stars that kind of time off the floor. And you're building the lead in the process. You're going from, I think when those guys came into the game,

I want to say the, that the Knicks won't have maybe four points. The Spurs were kind of roaring back. And then all of a sudden, you've got it back in double digits because of Miguel Bridges, because of Deuce McBride, because you're getting like a nice punch from Jose Alvarado here and there.

It's like yet another huge moment for the Knicks bench and for McHale Bridges both. And they really delivered in a way that I'm not sure that some of the supporting Spurs ever did. It's been interesting because Brunson has had two pretty inefficient games in a row. And yet I think you're seeing the Knicks' despite that, you sort of the presence of the threat of him scoring

and his gravity, like really, really well, even though he has had some pretty, I don't, if you don't play bat, I don't know if you necessarily need to play basketball to understand how,

I think they even kind of referenced this on the broadcast, but it seemed ordinary. When Brunson was on transition, and he had somebody on his back, and he had Harper flying in, and he decelerated at the rim and just shot it, he just put the perfect arc. You don't know the play I'm talking about,

He had like three guys around him. And he just shot this perfect floater. That was an insanely difficult shot that he hit. Like the stuff that he's able to do with his balance and the space that he has, I'm just routinely just blown away, even though. But I feel like, I mean, we got to talk about Carl. I mean, like, do we need to, do you want to go? Yeah, let's go.

This is the cat music here because he's just been unbelievable. Definitely faded down the stretch. Obviously got the fourth file went out and then everything just was a mess toward the end there. But like that first half was. Carl Anthony Towns is like Hall of Fame resume basically. And it's not just like that he's effective because he's had stretches like that in playoff pass with the wolves in particular. It's like a lot of the shooting providing the difference or like perhaps I'll just have a big

defensive game against a much bigger opponent. Just like not only how efficient and effective he is, Rob. It's like how dialed in he is and how like it seems like he's just reading the game and making the right play every time, which seems like such a simple thing. But with him, it's never the simple thing. That's actually everything with him because you just can't count on him to make a stupid foul or just like just four shots up when he doesn't do it. And it's just like something happened to him going into this postseason or where maybe Mike Brown finally spoke to him where he's just like, man, he's just like so streamlined.

And you get the player everyone expected or hope for his entire career. I think it has to be more than Mike Brown talking to him. Like he had an existential crisis. He had a moment of clarity. Is he talking to nuns too? Maybe he spoke to the right spiritual leader of one. whatever kind and it just absolutely something clicked into place for carl anthony i waska maybe i don't you know there are many strange trips people can go on to find clarity

whatever works for cat i want a piece of that i want to understand how to reach that level of enlightenment because the mushrooms from widows bay i mean what are we are we on what's the what's the palace that you lay in on the mattress what's it called i'm not i'm not ready to go to that one unfortunately anything black mold or black mushroom related i'm gonna i'm to steer clear from. But the combination of that decision making that you're talking about JV from Kat, where he is, he is that dialed in, he is that precise. And then he's also, he was a critical part of the defensive matchup that was holding down Victor Webbenyama for a significant portion of this game. I would say over the course of the first two games, Kat has just flat out,

out played Wemby in six of the eight quarters, probably to this point, which is an incredible testament to all of that balance, to all of that decision making. And I don't even know what to do with this anymore because this is supposed to be like kind of the one thing that once you reach a certain level of experience in your career, you kind of are who you are as a decision maker, right? You might refine a little bit, you might add a little bit, but you're not going to expect someone like Colonel Anthony Towns even a year ago to make this sort of leap in terms of his judgment. And yet here he is, his role was shifted shifted ever so slightly over the course of these playoffs into being more of a playmaker. And it just unlocked every good part of his game and

somehow erased all of the wasteful or erroneous parts. Is this cat's Dirk playoffs? Like, Oh, don't say that in front of run. He's going to get really mad right now. No, I mean, you're just talking about a one, you're talking about a special run. We'll see if there's more.

Yep. It didn't end up. I mean, you know, that, that occurred to me during the game. I mean, he's not having like the crazy scoring. Like, come, please come stop me. It's been a little different. But this seems. It's like a wine bottle thing for him.

Yeah. I think it is, look, this is clearly a run and a series. And if the Knicks certainly go on to win the championship, they're up two fucking O in the NBA finals. It's crazy to say, even still. It's going to change a lot about how we talk about Kat, about how we think about him historically, as it should.

He certainly earned that. The Dirk thing is a little different because he was the lead offensive player on a team that went through the back-to-back champion Lakers, Kobe and Powell that went through Durant to Westbrook and Hardin, that went through LeBron and Wade, like, I didn't need to- C.J. McCollum, isn't that? Is what you're saying?

You know, it's, it's slightly different in terms of the offensive responsibility and also just the Hall of Fame wattage that that team, the Mavs team ran through. I think, I think in the in the map sense, though, like if you look at the way, if you look at the trajectory of their careers, it's like nitpicked. People love Dirk. I mean, you got the stretch four or five thing going. Sure. But it was, it was a lot of heartbreak, a lot of frustration.

Like, does this guy have it? of thing. Comparing the resumes of the competition, obviously that those two things are very, very separate. But that's just kind of what the template. It seems to me. It just gets back to the whole thing with Towns's issue just seems so self-inflicted and just seems so intrinsic to like who he is as a guy.

Like he just seems a little goofy and like would get a little loose with it. And it didn't seem like Dirk was just more like it just didn't work out for him. Obviously the soft thing kind of, I think got to him at a certain point. But we're at the point now where Towns is like hearing Jimmy. out there. There was the play where he wrapped the ball around Cornette. While like basically going down was about to like put his foot down, one hand passes it all the way to the corner to I think Bridges. I was like, what the fuck is that? That was an insane play. That was one of the best plays of his career. I wrote that in my notes. I couldn't believe he

made that play. It wasn't just Cornette too. There were like four spurs there. And he contorted and wrapped that pass. And yeah, McKill Bridges hit it. But just the the opportunities that Carl Towns is creating. And the way he is, and we've, we've, Prace is driving all throughout these playoffs and in these finals especially, but that is a weapon that is straight up breaking the spurs at critical junctures of this series. His ability to put the ball on the floor, to refuse to be guarded by Smalls in the post. It is everything anyone has ever asked of Carl Towns, and he's delivering it on the biggest stage possible. All right. So a real mixed bag from Victor Webbenyama tonight just seemed to be in a spin cycle early on here, probably in part due to the effect Towns was

having on him got it going in that third quarter obviously towns was in foul trouble just seemed like it broke through he hit a three at that point and just seemed like things kind of just cascaded from there just seemed like he was just playing tight all of a sudden he had a few shots things started to move in a different direction overall rob how do you feel about wemby in this finals this is a case where perhaps he's a little lackluster and i had a point in his career where he's probably not ready to take a series by a throat this is just a bad matchup like impeding like some of the the the smaller advantages he was getting against the thunder overall like what's your outlook on what i would say first of all defensively because i think that's where we always start with wemby it feels like the nicks

have a different level of confidence executing against him and working around him than any previous spurs opponent and yeah the first half of game one you could see a little bit deer caught in the headlights from some guys like mcale bridges no jiannobie around wemby around the rim since then nobody seems too terrified to attack him nobody seems scared of that possibility or that prospect. Like they are going at him. They're pulling him out on the perimeter. They have understood better than anybody else. If you pull Wemby out high enough, Landry Shamit can beat him off the dribble.

Like there's lots of opportunity for guys to attack him in different ways. And the Knicks are finding the opportunity to do it offensively for Wemby. He's at this weird place where like he needs to make himself consistently available in spots on the floor that are not just hovering outside the three point line and kind of waiting for a kickout. But he also can't overcomplicate things when. he gets it. And you can see him trying to walk this balance in a real time of, I am facing up Carl Towns or Mitchell Robinson. Should I be trying to go like into a dribble package fade away or should I just take this jumper over the top? And it can feel like

a concession to just take the jumper. But when the alternative is a couple of awkward dribbles and then a much harder shot, I think we saw him kind of benefit from simplifying things a little bit of the second half. Yeah, definitely. And I think overall the spurs were doing a pretty good job of man you like in the first half manufacturing using wimby's gravity because i had a moment where i was like i know i'm parroting kind of what i said with brunsum but this is just kind of what you do with superstars you try to use use the attention that they get but with wimby it's when he's just doesn't even have the ball and i thought there were a few times where i was like man is this if this could evolve it could end up being like uh the inverse of of the step

offense where step's gravity outside the arc is causing cutting and wimmymy just going to the basket was causing these closeouts that you could tell that the spurs were in their recovery because if they're going to play like a recovery like peel and rotate kind of a thing, there are these opportunities to drive the ball and the spurs were doing a pretty good job of it in the first half. But at some point, though, it's just kind of like adjustments can be made and you you need your stars to when they were down. I just had this thought where I was like, Wimby's going to have to transcend offensively. And I think, you know, maybe streamlining it, finding simpler ways like you were talking about.

I kind of just, I'm trying to figure out how is it that you consistently go to Wimby and get passing out of the ways that he scores. It's weird that he's this dominant in a player and we don't know that yet. It's kind of crazy. It did feel like he was a little ground down, especially in the first half of this game. I do wonder if the size and physicality of the bigs he's going up against regularly is starting to have like just a wearing effect on him because it's not just towns and towns we should mention. and like there was one play where he went at him, got around him and dunked on him. And I was like, I don't remember the last time anyone got a dunk through Wemby, his playoffs, let alone like in the past couple of months here.

But it's not just that. OG got him tonight too, you know. OG did. That's right. A couple of them sneaking him by. That's right. Those two moments were like very, this is my third movie reference in one pod, but very matrix reloaded when very had to be a zombie movie.

What are you doing? Very matrix reloaded when the camera zooms to Neo's hand and he's bleeding in the Meravengian says you see he's just a man you know uh that's kind of those those two plays i was just like i don't those were eye-opening moments see that he's mortal big deal shout it to the meravingian i do you fucking get that what the hell's going on lots of people are going to get that reference just i hope so yeah i hope so it was good i applaud you guys that was a famous ass movie it's not like i'm picking french art house cinema from the 60s or something we need to do more French new wave on this pod.

French connection going here too. It was just big movie. The whole gamut. Yeah, but it's not just like some of those guys. I do feel like Mitchell Robinson had an effect on like Wembe at a certain point. And it's funny because like when the hack is started and it started very early and it happened like, I think like three possessions in a row or three like pretty quick possessions in that first quarter.

I was like, oh no. Because on top of sending Mitchell Robinson into the line with a broken hand basically, it also just like ground the game down. Everything slowed down. like, oh, this might be an effective way to steal minutes for Wembe while he sits because he basically missed like a couple minutes of game time, but I think it was like a 20 minute stretch where that was going on there. And so I was like, oh, this could be effective in spurts. Like obviously you can't sacrifice those files. Carter Bryant was doing a lot of it. And so like

maybe they can mix it in from time to time in order to do that. They went away from it pretty quickly. And as a result, like, Wembe's just constantly going against these big growing guys. And it's just like, thinking back to like some of the series before this, I just don't think he's had to deal with this sort of physical toll, especially after coming off of the seven game series in the lesser conference. And with all due credit, he did put up 29 in this

game on 21 shots. And in the end, had an opportunity to... He round back in. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely found a way back into it. Even then still had some issues. And if you're going to talk about like the collective toll of a game like this, and this was a ruthlessly physical game all around.

Tons of physicality, tons of holding, tons of pushing. maybe even like a bit much at certain points, but ultimately this is the kind of level of competition that I think we want on a stage like this. And then you get to the end, and Wembe makes a critical mistake in terms of that late game turnover

and also comes up a little bit short on the final shot. And so you can at least correlate these things. It's tough to draw straight line between saying. Oh, did it background? Well, in that case, I just wanted to make sure you got correct. My point is erased. It's irrelevant. But no, thank you.

It's kind of like that scene. Missed on the crucial. This is kind of like that scene in the life aquatic when, like Coach Carter, where you put it in the wrong guy. Something. But regardless, you know, he didn't have it. He didn't have it in the end came up with just a couple of mistakes late. Well, what else from this game? You want to talk about sham it?

It's so funny because every time he makes a big play and I will just. Are you going to mention his face again, Justin? No, I think he's a little bit of face. He should be proud. No, we did one of those little preview things going into it on the site, and I was like, Shaman's going to swing a game. He was, like, dialed in in the East Finals, shooting the shit out of the ball. Obviously, he's going to be a factor if Hart was going to play, all that other stuff that we talked about in the past.

But, like, consistently now, across two games, he's been very important. I just keep thinking every time he makes it a good play. He makes a few of them every game now. I just think, like, this guy, I believe they traded up for in the G League draft in some, like, chicanery where like they already had it set up that he was going to join the G league team because they were over the cap after the town straight but like essentially rose from the second pick in the G league draft to what he's doing now which is being like one of the first guys off the bench and a team that's just absolutely mowing down competition in the finals like we haven't seen before

like in history practically and a guy that if you want a flashback even to last season like couldn't even really get off the bench in a lot of games for the Tibbs version of the Knicks and he's become a critical part of their structure, of their flow, of their decision-making process as they're navigating their way around these jail and Brenson traps. If he were just a shooter, I think that would be really valuable to New York. But the fact that he is an effort defender, that he is a guy who's, like, fighting for loose balls in a Josh Hart kind of way in a game where Josh Hart was burdened by foul trouble the whole time.

And he's helping them make plays and work around all this stuff while hitting shots. Like, you're transcending the role player package if you're doing all of that stuff at once. Like you're you're performing at a level that's similar to a macaille bridges that's similar to a dylan harper right like you're you're your role player plus at the bare minimum and he has just had a legendary run all throughout these playoffs and these last two rounds in particular. Yeah he's he's always had pretty good he's always had pretty good basketball like you like he even played some point I always bring this up because I'm the college guy but he always he played some point guard at Wichita State like he he can process on some good teams it's just for him it's

the translation was like okay you're kind of a movement shooter now in the league we're seeing this This will be an interesting for Bennett Sturts, who's coming in the league also. But he's like, he's evolved defensively in a way where he's just not as easy to pick on. If you're going to make shots and play within a smart offense, you have a role. Gritted, he's playing the best basketball of his life. They have so many guys that are just wild. You know, they all drank the liquid luck. There we go.

There's four movie records. It's just on a heater, man. So we kind of have been talking around the Knicks just like run here a little bit. So this is now their 13th straight win of the playoffs, which is wild. Last time they lost was to that CJ McCollum, Atlanta Hawks team. April 23rd. I don't know if I had even planted my tomatoes at that point. Rob, how many podcasts do you think you've done since then?

You're 30? I think I have done more podcasts than your tomato plant has borne fruit. So, you know. Of course. It takes longer than a month. I'm just saying. Time demarcation with your maters. Listen, they look great right now.

I'm having some trouble with the basil. I think the squirrels are attacking. Really? Actually, okay, I'm going to take a quick detour here. Please. Because squirrels are just really going for my basil, and they're starting to pick off some other stuff here. And so I put a bunch of plastic forks around it as a way to deter them.

Yeah, or the very least, like, they run into it. They just go away and, like, perhaps. Have you tried literal razor blades? What's to be the problem with that thing? chicken wire is the next is the next phase but we'll get to that um unfortunately i didn't have enough forks and also if you've like if you touch a plastic fork it's not very quick until i woke up the next morning and they'd done more than ever before all right justin what's your game three adjustment with the squirrels i just i just like the

idea that these squirrels are going straight for the basil these discerning pallet-ass squirrels like making a caprize salad out there. What's happening? They're breaking out the wine coolers and they're just going to town. Why not? I like the idea of attacking Justin's basil as a nice sort of turn of phrase

that we can bring back at some point. But at what point, should we stop calling at the playoffs and just call it like Justin's plant maters? Like where do we? We should set this up with your garden. I think there's stuff we can mine here, till or whatever you want to, yeah. There it is.

Literally any time you want to take this detour, I am ready. I mean, unless you want to just turn this into its own separate Patreon. And I was actually, like, I was thinking of ways to like just spin this off. And then I. Hey, if Zach, I'll end here. But if Zach Galifinacchus can do this for Netflix, why can't I? That's all I'm saying. Many people are wondering.

Yeah. Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if, like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was thwarting. He's old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what it.

Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. All right, so the Knicks are playing well. 13th straight win. April 23rd last loss. They're also now the third team in NBA history, Rob, to win the first two games on the road.

The other two teams, the 93 Chicago Bulls, the 95 Houston Rockets. Wow. So if we're not trying to get ahead of ourselves around here. but I'm just going to put it out in the air now that there's a possibility in a week or two that we are having a discussion about how historically dominant are the Knicks?

Are they one of the all-time, are they on one of the all-time dominant runs all the way to the championship? You need games like this to get there, right? It's not always going to be double digits. It's not always going to be sweeping people. The spurs are going to have a lot to say in the rest of this series.

But I think it, the fact that the Knicks have been able to string together some wins like this one or pull out just like, enough luck plus bench stretches plus superstar play plus championship team construction stuff in addition to blowing the doors off of some lesser competition of the earlier rounds. That's the resume of an all-time great team. I don't know any other way to slice it.

But then going into the playoffs, we weren't even sure that they would beat the Hawks. I know. You were down 2-1 to this team. I just don't get like how the flips kind of switched here. And I've been thinking through this a lot, especially and I think we're going to have to talk about this a lot if they do end up winning and going back to MSG which is probably worth like what five points that fucking crowd is going to be electric and it was already going to be tough to play and now you're going there up to oh side side tangent here did you guys catch fat joe at a

certain point behind the basket just look look at a little inebri yeah he doing he was like trying to distract wimby he was he wasn't actually trying to distract wimby he actually was so drunk he was like seeing things and he was swatting at them that's what was going on yeah but I mean we're going to we're going to be talking about this probably a good amount here I think it's just like a combination of things obviously the offensive adjustments that they made cat being dialed in the competition being a little lesser going to this point in the east also the fact that like they're healthier and like that just matters so much more I know that's not a sexy podcasting topic but like something we all need to reconcile that like health matters just so much considering what it got one of the regular season is and just like how much torque on the body's happening with space. Even in this game, Castle kind of tweaked his knee at a certain point. Fox came up limping down the stretch.

Dylan Harper seemed to turn an ankle. It's like just getting out of one of these games without somebody getting hurt. We saw in a game one with Jalen Brunson. Like, you're just trying to get through these games relatively unscathed. And the fact that they've gotten through an entire run with most of their bodies and core intact, knock on every piece of wood imaginable.

That is what it takes. You do need those kinds of breaks in addition to everything else. Yeah, I've wondered like coming, you know, talking about like the comparing it cat to the Dirk thing. It kind of makes you wonder like looking forward because people always do this shit with titles. They're always if there's unless it's just a dominant like Shaq Kobe like they steamroll everybody. People love to put conditions or caveats and be like well, well, you know, like with the Nuggets,

for instance, there's been a lot of talk about like, you know, there was health during that, those playoffs. so people love to just bring those up. Like certain rings matter more than others. I could see people doing that, but this has, speaking of it. Look at Justin. Just let's just get it.

I just, well, just the, this guy, come on. Just, just a side tans. Is this what are your hills? I would say it's a hill, but, you know, I think, I think people have done the studies and it was one of the easiest

paths. Oh, okay. All right. I'm walking into the Yokic is weird shit. I'm sorry. I didn't even know. It's going to be my, that was stupid of me.

Yeah, yeah. Walked right into that. Justin set in another trap for this, and I fell for it unlike the squirrels. But no, I think there's that going on, um, with it.

I'm just, I'm not saying this is what I think. I'm just saying I project, predict that people will be like, well, you know, these people weren't healthy. They're so dominant, man.

And I think another thing here that's, that's gonna, you really could kind of feel the earth move under your feet a little bit in how we were thinking about these playoffs in that second quarter where It was like you saw, you know, the spurs come out through this strong start. They've scheme this thing that's going to work. And the Knicks, they make one adjustment. And it kind of goes away.

You start seeing the Spurs guards drive into dead ends. And they have nowhere to go because the Knicks are playing the gap so well. And they're so smart defensively. And then you start seeing your phone ding. I don't know if this is kind of the way it went for you guys where you could just feel people just be like, this might be a sweep. Like this is this is not kind of what we thought it's going to be like. The only thing that gave me an inkling of like,

maybe the spurs will swing back is wimby exerting himself a little bit more off offensively and having a big game but the fact that fox granted fox came up gimpy and that was sort of took the window of the sales there where he just kind of had that moment where he realized who he was and started attacking that gave me a little bit of pause where i was like maybe the spurs will come like fight back but i'm not feeling optimistic about it and it's an interesting shift that's happened for me i don't know if you'll feel that way absolutely yeah it's interesting I don't want to draw too many conclusions yet because obviously we still have a lot of finals to go here. But obvious, I think this is the start of time where you're like saying like what happened with the next like what changed between the end of the regular season going to this.

And it's just like I look back to that Pacers team and maybe like things are just set up so that a team that's healthy at the right time that's deep enough at the right time and just executing at a high level. Like that just matters more than it did in the past when it felt like so much was just best player wins the season. series that the superstar dictates a lot of that. And it's like it almost feels almost too obvious because obviously a team that's executing in a high level is going to play well and thus go far. But it feels like that's that matters a little bit more. And like I think the depth of talent probably contributes to that a little bit. Obviously the Pacers had that in space.

And if you look across the Knicks, the fact that they have the bench engaged in ways that Tibbs probably waited too long, waited until the playoffs in order to try to judge some of these guys up. That matters too. but like a lot of times I'm like flashing back to like I said I brought up the spurs of previous ventures before but like

they do are reminiscent of that just the way that the ball pings and they're finding good offense that way if you really want to make the comp work like there's some comparison to like everyone assumed that this would be Wemby's moment in the same way people thought that there would be the heats moment

back in the day obviously that was the Mavs not the spurs but like that's the counter I mean the age difference is there and everything else but like I don't know it just it just feels like this team is like right time right place and everything going well. And maybe that's just what things, this is the way this happens, Rob, in the playoffs now,

where it's more about timing than it is about just a complete ticket to ticket, like end run to end run sort of dominance that we're used to. Well, think about even the components that are making that ball movement and that team play possible. Jalen Brunson's an amazing player. I haven't heard a single argument or claim that he's like in the running for the best player in the world conversation. Even if the Knicks win, I don't think we're going to hear that chatter.

It's going to be he's an. amazingly guard. He's an unbelievable clutch score, all of the positive attributes in terms of his creation and body control without question. But he's not LeBron James, right? Like he's not Nicole Yokic or Janice Santo Dekumpo. He's a different kind of lead creating all of this action around him by playing out of pressure like he did tonight. And then you've got Carl Towns, who's completely rewired his brain seemingly and become the sort of decision maker we were just praising. OG and Anobi, who at previous points in his career, was criticized for being like a little bit too much of a straight line player and not a lateral thinker in terms of the way that he

navigates the floor or someone who would push for his own offense too much at an opportune times. We're not really seeing any of that in either direction. Mikhail Bridges, who earlier this season looked like he might have fallen off the face of the earth completely and be lost to a team like the Knicks has rebounded to become an essential part of their system. Mitchell Robinson, I mean, even as recently as the beginning of this season, we weren't sure if he was ever going to be healthy enough to be a reliable piece for them, like on a

season to season year over year basis. And they just fold all these guys in. The ball is pinging between them, perfectly balanced, perfectly calibrated. And it just wasn't that way out throughout the regular season. I say this is all a tremendous compliment to what the Knicks have built and what they have put together. Like a great championship season should feel like a process. You should not be the same team in November that you are at June. You should see growth.

You should see change. And we've seen so much transformation from the Knicks that it is, it's frankly dizzying. it's an interesting time you know talking to what you're saying speaking to what you were saying justin about you know typically we have these you know superstars who are the center of the solar system of a team and there and everything kind of the nix orbits around that it's like well i would say also you know in the east they a lot of them weren't healthy um you know and be it is a shell themselves hadetums out things like that but this there are other ways to kind of speaking to what you're saying about like times being different now like how teams are set up

how the schedule plays out. There's another way to build a team, which is if you have all-stars who aren't necessarily at that top five MVP caliber level, you can balance that if guys understand who they are, and this includes the stars that they're not over pursuing it, like Catwood in the past. He's had this calibration of how he plays.

I think Brunson has adjusted too to some of that. But then Rob, speaking to what you're saying, too, they have elite role players. So I think figuring out that balance, I think is part of what has made this click into place and become this crazy machine. It's just because like the Brunson's not forcing it in a harmful way. Kat's not forcing it in a harmful way.

You look at his line. He's just been scoring in the 20s and yet he had gigantic impact on the game. And then letting these elite role players have it's people have brought up the pistons. It kind of it's those types of teams. The pistons that Mavs team, even though Dirk was dominant. It's that kind of, it's that kind of set up. It's fun to watch. Honestly, that might be the cat.

comp is not the Dirk run, it's Rashid Wallace to the Pistons. And then all of a sudden he's like, you know, not a full good citizen. Like there's still some of the old sheet in there. But everything is being channeled in such a positive direction by the culture, by the flow, by his place within it. Maybe that is the kind of comparison. Yeah. Mike Brown. Bronson. Yeah. Yeah. Mike Brown deserves a lot of credit for this. Without a doubt. It's such a crazy journey. He's been on too because he bursts onto the scene, just leading those calves teams and all of a sudden was this type of coach the defensive minded like basically built the

foundation for lebron's defense and he should have won defensive player there at least once and then obviously keyed a lot of his career from there but then like kind of went in the wilderness with some of these like weird teams and kind of got spat out as some sort of like steve ker disciple where he really is like a ball fine energy speak to like the the like more like kind gentle nature of people and the more like just like i don't know more free flowing as opposed to he got soft and woke. Is that what you're saying? I think a little bit, yeah. That's what happens where you go out into the bay.

It's crazy. It really just speaks to perhaps the journey of certain coaches. We think about this with players going to different spots and becoming different things. He really is completely different there. It seems like he's speaking to them in the sort of way they needed to. And he wasn't their first choice

in New York because obviously they kick the tires on like seven different active head coaches with actual jobs. And the fact, it seemed like he just was the right voice in order to bring this about. Well, we've talked about that with the Knicks players, too, about just kind of being there at the right stage in your career where you've accumulated enough disappointment and enough experience and just all kind of cresting into something that is singular and of its moment. I think that's the case with Mike Brown, too, for all the reasons you just described, at this point has overseen, I mean, one of the most explosive offensive seasons ever in Golden State while Steve Kerr was kind of sideline with some health-related issues, an incredible turnaround in Sacramento in terms of piecing their offense into something functional and playoff worthy and absolutely remodeling everything that the Knicks were

without giving up the heart of what the team was still trying to be. Like this still feels weirdly enough like a gritted out tough Tibbs team. It's just one that has the offensive playbook to supplement it and to play out an entire series that doesn't feel like it is running straight into the wall over and over and over, but has all this facility to it. The fact that the Knicks of all teams have just turned into a club with such a deaf touch

in terms of their execution is a dramatic improvement and there's simply no one else to credit that to other than Mike Brown and the effect he's had on unlocking towns in the way he's had and channeling Brunson into even more effective ends.

He has come up with everything that has made this version of the Knicks so formidable. All right. On the flip side of things, you're Miss Johnson. You're preparing for a raucous environment at MSG in game three.

Do you guys see anything other than things that we talked about that might help a little bit more here? Man, it's tough. This is, this really is the kind of series where it's just like, can we really not play Victor Webinjama 48 minutes? Can we like, you, you just want to start shaving and you can't because you got to buy these times, these guys rest somewhere. But again, they, they were right there.

I'm going to, I'm going to focus if I am Mitch Johnson on how do, how do you get to second half and third quarter Wemby earlier and more consistently overall. And I think a big part of that is where Wembe is setting up shop, where you're trying to set him up on the floor. Some of it, to be fair, is the shots that he is willing to take. I think the other backbreaking one that if I were Victor Webbenyamo would be haunting my nightmares tonight is he was on the block with McHale Bridges on his back. Oh, and now the one you're talking about.

Yeah. They couldn't get him the ball in a timely or easy manner. And he ended up taking a step back corner three instead of like a post up. against McHale Bridges. I thought you were to talk about the one where he had, he had Deuce McBride and Fox threw it off the backboard. That was brutal. But, come on.

Both suffer from the same problem, which is every entry pass in the series is contested. Everyone is difficult on both ends. Challenged on the ball, physical with Wemby in the post or wherever he is on the floor. I'm not saying these things should be easy, but the Spurs guards have to figure it out. Like they have to be a little bit more precise in terms of how they're locating the biggest freaking guy on the floor and getting him the ball to post up Deuce McBride. On the other side of this, I thought that the Knicks

got a pretty shitty whistle. That's also too, yeah. Yeah. The only guys who got called for fouls were Kat and Josh Hart somehow. I don't know what happened. Well, OG went to the line late, I think, in the fourth quarter. That challenge. Yeah, the challenge was the first time they had free throws in that

second half, which was wild. The tech on Mitchell Robinson when they were just shoving each other down below, which was kind of bullshit. And so, like, I don't know. I can see things flip them pretty quickly for the Spurs. I don't want to bury them just, yeah. Obviously, they have a lot of things going for them. But, like, I would say at this point,

a sweep seems like the most likely scenario. I don't know if it's going to happen. But, God damn, two games at MSG. I don't know that a sweep in the finals is ever the most likely scenario. Even if it's 3-0, it's like you still think at some point a team as good as the Spurs will pull one out. And again, we've talked. We've mentioned it so many times the night.

They damn near pulled this one out. One mistake. And really it is the double whammy of the turnover that then forces them to foul, not forces, but leads to them fouling Jalen Brunson immediately and giving up a tie game into a deficit. That's the backbreaker of all backbreakers. And so it's like one different play and this game in this series feel completely. They are changed irrevocably. But here we are in a world where the Knicks are up 2-0.

Clearly they have a strong hold on this series. it would be crazy to say they are not heavily favored to win at this point. But I think, I feel like a respectful gentleman's, like five game series is probably the most likely outcome. And from there, all things are possible. I'd kind of convinced myself or just been led to believe that,

you know, we talk about superstars. It takes time. You know, you kind of have to, even the best ones we've had, it takes. LeBron had the one in 2007 where he got there a little early,

obviously, and got destroyed. But it's starting to kind of feel more like that, honestly. Um, where I'd kind of talk myself out of, uh, that, that wimby was going to be sort of a historical anomaly and that he wasn't going to have to go through these trials that they typically have to go through, which we've seen in LeBron, MJ, all the best ones do. Um, I mean, Kareemzik really, the only guy who that came in and immediately won one, one that won a title. Very different times, but, um, it's kind of starting to feel more like a, uh, like a, like a vision quest kind of event for, for these young spurs players where it's like, this is going to be a thing that they learn from because, their youth really has shown in ways in this series already in these first two games.

I'm not saying it didn't show in the past, but this Nick's team is just ready to exploit some of the things that they struggle in and that even the Thunder weren't ready to, interestingly enough. So when we do winners and losers of the finals, winner Joseph Campbell? What do we think? Well, winner Michael Jordan, because Wembe can never be better than him? Apparently, you know. Lost one finals.

That ship has sailed. well, may sail. May sale. That's right. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? We're off for game three, so we'll be back to you at game four, which I believe is Wednesday night? Wednesday? That sounds right. If not, who cares? Thanks to Ben Cruz. Thanks to Jeff for filling in it on production.

We'll be back next week for Game 4. We'll talk to you then.