The Ringer NBA Show - The Knicks, the Timberwolves, and the Importance of Knowing Thyself | The Answer

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

J. Kyle Mann and Seerat Sohi tap the classic quote from 'The Matrix' to discuss two NBA teams that are currently trending in opposite directions. They begin by detailing how the New York Knicks have catered their recent roster moves to coach Tom Thibodeau's defensive schemes, which resulted in their recent success (4:16). They then dive into GM Tim Connelly's personnel misevaluations in Minnesota and talk about the player adjustments he can make to steer that squad back to a more cohesive identity (32:39). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Seerat Sohi Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guy, Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league.

And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into OffGuard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. It's basketball. So very good. Welcome to the answer. My name is Jay Kyle Mann. Jay stands for James.

You think it stands for jump shot as sweet as my jump shot is. But that's not the case. This is a show where we pontificate the greater mysteries in basketball. And to do that, I'm going to need a sharp mind that can navigate these tumultuous, complicated waters. And that person is Siritt Sohi, one of the sharpest minds around. Siritt, what's up? What you doing? How are you doing?

I'm great. I'm really excited to talk about identity crises, not knowing who you are. I think it's just really right up my alley, right up yours. As someone who takes personal offense to being called James, but now it seems like maybe you're warming to it. I don't take offense to it. Yeah? No.

What made you think that? I feel like I heard you on a previous podcast. Or, you know, I know, I know. I think I sent you something that said James Mann on it. And I was just completely shocked. Maybe I'm projecting. Maybe I think so. felt like you were misrepresenting who you were calling yourself Kyle this whole time.

Now, I find out that you're named after the Poet Laureate of Kentucky, which also kind of impedes on my own sense of myself. Like, you've been calling me the Poet Laureate of Edmonton this entire time. So I don't really know what to think. And we're actually going to talk about a bunch of teams that don't really know what to think either. Or maybe that, you know, maybe didn't necessarily, as you put it before the show, know themselves as well as they should have and then took some wrong turns. Yeah, that's the theme of today. And when we were, you know, sometimes you don't know going in what the thread is.

And sometimes you do some work and you lay a bunch of tiles down and you step away and you realize, oh, this is the common thread between these teams. The theme, as Sirot said today, is something. It reminded me of a clip from a very popular movie from the early 2009, actually 1999, The Matrix. Fire it, Hornet Leg. You know what that means? It's Latin. It means no.

The Matrix actually came out when I was five, and that is about the last time that I watched it. I really need to watch it again because it's really... Wait a minute. You watched The Matrix when you were five? Yeah, I did. And it was like, it's like an action movie to me. I also have a bad taste in my mouth about it because as a five-year-old,

I was watching it. I was like, this is a little bit boring. Like the dialogue in between the action, I don't really understand. And some of it just looks gross. Well, you were five. Well, my best friend at the time, he just loved it. And he just always wanted to watch it. Was he five as well?

He was also five. What is going on? I'm just, that's an extremely violent movie with the- Yeah, he had older siblings. So, it explains it. That explains why I wasn't very cool. I didn't have older siblings that were into cool things. sorry Tara that if my sister ever hears this she won't uh but yeah like i watched the matrix i think

i think he came out when i was like 14 something like that but uh that that that you know the math adds up anyway good movie uh there's actually a pretty cool rewatchables episode about that somewhere out there if anybody wants go check that out but know thyself and and sort of we were saying it's uh it's slash trust thyself which i think in order to trust yourself i think you kind of need to have a clear idea of who you are or be self-aware in some way. We're going to be talking about a couple teams today. The first one, well, we're going to talk about the Minnesota Timberwolves later after the break, but first we're going to talk about a team that has a group of very dedicated fans that has a long legacy of basketball in the NBA, one of the older teams in the league.

The New York Knicks, if I could do Stephen A. Smith voice there, I would. The New York Knicks on the season, they are 25 and 20 above 500. They're 11 and 12 at home. They are 14 and 8 on the road. They've had an interesting sort of start, stop quality to their season. They have won seven of their last 10. Their best wins were against Indiana, Milwaukee, Toronto, and Phoenix. Sir, what do you make of the New York Knicks right now in terms of realizing their self-identity?

Do you think that they're on a path? Are they flailing? Is it Fool's gold that they've been winning more games lately? What's going on with the New York Knicks, in your opinion, and in the broad sense? You know, I think they had a really good thing going, and then they had an offseason that kind of undercut everything that they were building. They added Evan Fornier, they added Campbell Walker, and all of a sudden, one of the stingiest defenses in the NBA that, you know, I think gave the Hawks a pretty good series. and they went and became just, you know, turnstiles. And I think there was just a lack of energy on the team.

They just, they had a bad season. I think a lot of it kind of came down to the fact that they tried to change a little bit too much about what they were. And I also think this is something that happens with teams that play really good defense. They just try to add offense in the offseason and they think that you can just kind of superimpose it onto good defense. where in reality, that's just not how rotations work. And things this season were kind of carrying over. The New York Knicks early November look like pretty much the same deal, low effort, just a lot of ugly shots.

This is not a team that's going to win with their offense. And I think maybe that's what they thought they were going to do. And it looked for a moment. Things were really going to take a turn for the worst. I think, you know, Tom Thibodeau's job was definitely on the line. I think he was looking like one of the, one of the earliest candidates to get fired this season. And then Tibbs just did something so Tibbsy. And I think Tibbs just did something that, you know, he was basically just like, if I'm going out, I'm going out being me.

So Evan Fornier, you're out of the rotation. Ken Reddish, who, you know, has basically this, the next few months to show that he has grown his game at all and could, and hopefully for the Knicks, like either. go somewhere in a trade or be a part of their future. No, you're out of the rotation. You're not getting those reps anymore. I don't like... I called him Cam Rubbish, much to your chagrin. You threatened to try to get me, you threatened to go to HR and get me fired for that, but it's not as bad as my Killian Hayes joke I made the other day, but, you know, well, why don't we, if you're going to play the greatest hits, like throw out the Killian Hay's joke, too. Well, I was just, he's played better lately, so it doesn't make... I've had a kind of a tendency of teasing players and then they

come around and play better. So I'm not going to act like I have some kind of superpower or like maybe subconsciously I'm controlling the basketball universe. Maybe I am. I don't know, but I call it. Are there any players you'd like to tease and, you know, hopefully get them going? Let me let me get back to you on that. No, I said more like killing you when he plays. That was the remember that was the fun that I did. It's despicable. It's not good. But continue your Cam Reddish thought. I'm sorry to jump in there. Well, you know, like this is a very Cameretteish moment here. You've seen the game tape. You had an opportunity in practice to figure out that it didn't work and yet here we are live and just shooting that shot but hey you know the people love it it's

just and so we got we got we got we got to let you do it right uh and sure with cam's case the people don't love it the people being tom tibito and so he's out of the rotation evan fornier is out of the rotation obitopin has been hurt uh so that takes him out of the rotation and the nicks are basically just back to their defensive identity they are leading the NBA and second chance points since I think it's November 15th. It was around that time. They started going on a run and TIP started doing all this stuff.

They're 10th in points in the paint. And as a result of that, they are getting a smidge more three-pointers as well. I think just, you know, the wheels are just turning a little bit better. So it's allowing everything else to move. But they have a rotation of very stingy point guard defenders, Quinn Grimes, McBride. Who am I forgetting?

Quickly is a decent defender, too. Too. Yeah, quickly. Quickly is who I hadn't mind. He's playing a lot better. And, you know, in a moment where it kind of looked like the quickly New York experiment might be over, alongside many New York experiments. But they really picked it up.

And they just look like a Tom Thibodeau team, you know, just you got Brunson driving to the paint. You got Julius Randall getting, like, I think being a lot more aggressive, which is really important. And you got Barry driving to the paint. And the beauty of it is it doesn't matter how many. shots are missed when you have Mitchell Robinson and Isaiah Hartenstein basically just cleaning up every rebound in the world. So it's just, it's incredibly Tibbsian. It's basically like, you know, it's straight out of his evil

smiling fantasies, in my opinion. Just full metal like scruffy era. Looking a lot like the clean era for Tibbs. And he might have saved his job. And now the Knicks are kind of back to being well positioned. Yeah. It's kind of, it reminds me of a scene from The Matrix. You said you haven't watched it in a long time, but there's a scene where they know that the agents are coming for them.

And I think it's mouse, the smaller guy who, like, coded the Red Lady program. He has that scene where he knows they're coming and he gets both the guns out. And he's, like, trapped in this room. And he gets both Tommy guns out. And he's just, you know, shooting away as he goes down. That's kind of what Tibbs is going. We don't know that Tibbs is going down. But I think that refining the rotation and getting continuity is a really big thing.

And you talked about how they change. Sometimes you have, sometimes it's like your preferences can kind of be weeded out and you can be saved from yourself in a way like trying to play too many guys. It can be hurtful. I think their continuity has improved over, let's see, in December, this lineup had the most minutes played overall. Randall, Brunson, Mitchell Robinson, RJ, and Quentin Grimes. And then in January, tweak it a little bit because RJ had a finger injury. near the end of December. But Randall, Brunson, Mitch, Mitch Robb, quickly, and Quentin Grimes had the fourth most minutes played.

So they're finding some continuity. I guess the counter there is that people talk about Tibbs running people into the ground. He likes to play his guys, likes to play him a lot of minutes. But I think you hit on something that's really important. They definitely do have, like, clean up guys that are really proficient. I wrote in our, like, in our top 100 thing, we were talking about Mitchell Robinson. I was pointing out just how remarkable, like, how remarkably similar his trajectory to D'Andre Jordan is. I was going back and looking at their stat profiles and they're like almost identical.

And you think about like really switchable, really like great, like can contest perimeter stuff, can catch lobs or really great cleanup players. That's kind of a digression. But the other big thing here too is that I think Brunson's like paint touches for a guard his size have been really big for them. I think it's been really big for Randall. It all sort of feeds forward, right? I mean, like, if Brunson is getting into the paint, he's one of the better guards in the, in the whole league about doing that, he doesn't even have to shoot it. He just has to get there. And that produces a flow that they haven't really had in the past. You know, they tried to have that Kimba. Kimba was really score first, but he also was compromised defensively in a way that Brunson isn't necessarily. But it just feeds into creating open shots, makes Randall's life easier, and then creates opportunities for them to do what they do well, which is cleaning up on the glass like you were talking about. Yeah, and look, like, there's a reason we're talking about the Knicks today. It's not, you know, it's, it's not essentially a momentous for the rest of the league when a team, like, say, the Indiana Pacers figures out their season.

But this is New York Knicks we're talking about. First of all, when the Knicks are good, I think it's just good for the NBA. I think that it's a cliche, but it's also true. Just Bing Bong was one of the best, one of the best times that I've had covering the league. But it's also true because the Knicks always want to be a player. They're situated in New York. This is one of the most storied franchise in the NBA. Yadda, yada, yada.

We all know this. And when Leon Rose took over, he basically had this plan, I think, of trying to nab the potentially next unhappy CAA star. Leon Rose, for those who don't know, was basically an NBA super agent for CAA. Reped pretty much all of their top billing clients. And then when he decided to go over to the next,

and they have a bunch of CAA ties now. Tibbs is CAA. They've got that, and that's kind of like they are the sort of one of, there's a lot of ways to build a team in the NBA now, and they are one of the ones that I think wanted to do it by having close ties with an agency. This stuff is all like inextricable.

Like, you know what I mean? It's just interesting today's NBA, like the agency stuff. It was always in bed and entwined, but it's like, it's just funny that it's interesting how, it's just a really interesting landscape in the NBA today that like, Those things are so inextricable that they were like setting up this agency tie and they're like get these guys. Right. Yeah. Like now you've got some teams that are like corporate headquarters for agencies essentially like the Lakers and Clutch. Even I think the sons in CAA are really, really embedded and that probably impacts some of the stuff that happens with the non-CAA guys there. But yeah, a lot of things didn't really go to plan. Zion Williamson, prominent CAA client ended up being pretty happy in New Orleans. You know, Devin Booker, who I think, think probably if things kept going wrong in Phoenix, like probably would have been around the time

that you start to demand a trade. And Carltown, so I think was probably the guy that they had the best shot at, right around the time that the Knicks were screwing up and going with his Fornier Walker experiment is when the Timberwolves were starting to pick things up and figure things out. All of this stuff was very, I mean, the Timberwolves thing feels temporary. Even the Nick's sort of demise, their wrong turn, feels temporary as well. They're back to being the defensive team that they were. But that right there was kind of the window. And it didn't really happen for them.

And right now, they are, they're kind of back where they were before. And I think this is just kind of like the beauty of when you start playing better, just like you said on the court where one guy sort of starts feeding into the other and all the sudden things just look a little bit more open. when you start playing better, all of a sudden, if you want to make trades, everyone on the roster

just has a little bit more value in the trade market than they would have too. Now, if you look at Julius Randall, he's playing at all NBA levels again, basically. Now, I think there's a little bit of noisor. I think he's going to come back down to earth somewhat. But he's rejuvenized.

He is playing a lot better on defense. He's just giving a crap more. Everyone is giving your crap more. And all of a sudden, in 23 million, 4 years, does not sound that bad for him. But the real beauty of this situation is, are the guys that are sitting on the bench for New York. You've got Evan Fornier, three year, $18 million sitting on the bench. Derek Rose, 14 million, two years sitting on the bench.

And you've got Cam Reddish, if that's just going to be, basically just salary now at this point. But the guys that you thought that maybe New York was going to have to let go of and, you know, quickly is now value. now has value, right? Obie Topin has value regardless. I think there's other teams that if he doesn't end up fitting on a tips team, there's other teams that would be interested in what he brings to the table. Isaiah Hartenstein, who they signed, by the way, well, just such a good signing.

Two years, eight million per year. This guy is only 23 years old. He's one of the smartest centers in the NBA, just incredibly high IQ, good defense, has shown a lot of improvement for the clippers. They couldn't afford to keep him. after they signed John Wall. So the Knicks swept in.

Interesting, right. Yeah. All things considered. A little crazy. Yeah. Yeah. They're kind of looking for Isaiah Hartinstein in the trade market, basically, right now. So, you're really similar to the Lakers hunting Zubach into the sun and then being like, oh, man, we need to say it.

It's just funny how these guys, how it works. Guys just need a chance sometime. Hartons had a hard time finding a home, I feel like. He's got an interesting sort of. dynamic of like people love him. Like I feel like all the way through the, there's some guys like this that all the way through everywhere they go, people

are like, oh, we like him, we like him. But he just kind of can never quite settle into a home. Yeah, he's had a weird. He's had a weird sort of run. And I'm not really sure why that is. I think he's always been pretty promising. But his development of Clippers over the last year was obviously, I think, what took him from being a sort of guy that people are like,

oh, he's interesting to a guy that you're like, oh, wow, no, he's actually, he can contribute now and later. And could just be like a very high level serviceable role player. And he doesn't make a lot of money. So that's another guy that teams are going to want. Now they have a mix of guys that let's say you were going to bring in that superstar to pair along with Brunton, which is what they kind of talked about in the offseason.

They have a lot of guys that aren't currently playing that could go. And they have a ton of picks. Won't necessarily get into all of those. But they have a really good package that they could send. aren't any unhappy superstars in the moment. Now, this is the NBA, so I'm sure that will change, but we're in a strange moment where we're going to have to figure out who the next guy that wants out is.

I think the NBA right now is in this weird place where there's so much parity. And with the trade deadline coming up, teams are trying to figure out who they are. And you've got two stars in Dame Lillard and Bradley Beale who have never, it seems at this point, unless we actually hear something about them jumping ship. Like, yes, maybe they should, given their team, circumstances, but it seems like they won't. And then you've got teams like the Hawks, like Trey Young might be unhappy, but he is on a team that they don't really necessarily

know if they want to blow it up yet. Pascal Seacum is on the Raptors, another team that doesn't necessarily know what's going on. I imagine some of these dominoes will start moving at some point, but right now we're at this weird impasse where there isn't an available unhappy superstar to get. And we're going to talk about the wolves later. Interesting. I'm just like put a pin in the hilarity. of these trade windows. Just this week, he became ineligible to trade for the rest of the season. So did Bunker, while the sons are also facing a lot of questions about their future.

But that can't happen until the offseason. As of right now, though, the Knicks for the next guy, I think after all of these sort of years of the mirage of the Knicks bringing in a superstar finally feel like they could and it would be feasible and make sense for both. player and team. Yeah, you were talking about the potential candidates. You know, there are some that could potentially, you know, become available. I was trying to think of, like, who would be ideal.

I don't really necessarily, if you consider Brunson, who is a good fit, we've seen him perform in playoff series and do really well, playing, especially next to a big playmaker, he thrives, where he doesn't necessarily have to be the focal point. He can be a spot-up guy. He can attack off the catch, things like that. He just gives your offense flow. And we've seen that with the Knicks. I don't know that, you know, Lillard, I don't think would be a good fit.

I don't think it's going to happen. So it's kind of like who fucking cares kind of thing. Like, yeah, I could say that, but it doesn't really matter. Like, there's not a great option here. And I don't know that necessarily, like, Pascal Seaccom is another guy. Do you think that it's kind of a wait and see until the free agent market in the summer? We just kind of like take our chances with the squad that we got and then we go stabbing for or we go, we go looking to solve this problem later. Is that what you're kind of thinking for the Knicks?

I think so. I think so. I think you got to wait until there's actually a guy that makes sense for you to, you know, empty the powder for because you can only do that once. What type of player do we think that is, though, is kind of the question that I'm thinking. Because if you look at their roster, I mean, you could see them, they could swap some of the stuff they have and import like a sinner who could like give them more. Because Mitch Robb is sort of like a focused, like he has a focused like, he's a focused tool basically. Like he has a, he needs to be playing. The comparison I made was he's sort of like a baby grand piano and a house with a bunch of people that don't really play.

That was a comparison I made where it was like this guy can do. And like DeAndre Jordan was using him as sort of the template. It was like DeAndre was a fine, you know, he did things. But the moment he got with Chris Paul when I guess he was like 23-ish years old, if you just chart them parallel, his career changed. And, you know, he started to be looked at differently. all the different things that he could do. I'm just wondering, like, do you think that they could go after?

Is there a center? Is there a Carl Towns out there that could be a good fit for them? Like, what position do you think that they could upgrade? Or where do you think there's an opening for a star player to come in based on their roster construction as it is? I think it's a really interesting question because it sort of comes down to what they think about Julius Randall and whether he can be a piece.

of a championship team. And that is just a very difficult question to answer because there are so many different versions of Julius Randall out there. But I think at the core, like the way that I would look at it is if you have a foreman who is a little bit deficient on the defensive end,

you're going to have to do a lot of things to make up for it. So if you can bring in a superstar, like let's say honestly, like Pascal Seacum, I would be calling every damn day. I would not let Messiah Jerry rest just because I think he's a guy that would fit in incredibly well to their culture which is something that we'll talk about a little bit later to

like the types of superstars that you trade for like you can't just willy-nily go and trade for a superstar like it's NBA 2K I think it really has to matter who they are and what they bring to your culture I think you know the caps no no examples of that in the NBA today right it's not like we're going to be doing a segment on Minnesota later. But it's, I think that really matters. And I think Siakim is a guy who'd be a great culture fit pretty much anywhere.

Like he's just awesome defender is improved every single year that he's been in the league. I think he's really come into his own, has a lot of confidence in who he is and what he's capable of doing. He can do pretty much anything on the floor and guard any position. There's very few situations that he wouldn't fit in. But I think this next situation is one where aside from the shooting, I think he just fit in really well as a playmaker along. alongside Brunson. I don't think they would get in each other's way at all. I think if you decide to

keep Randall, you're pretty small, but he makes up for a lot of what Randall can't do. And if you don't decide to keep Randall, I think that's fine too. And you figure out what's next from there. So I think it really just comes down to down to that part of it. Like what is an opposing team want? And I think one of my biggest questions is actually like, what is this sort of, is this uptick right now for Randall? Is it enough for him to be a guy that other teams in the league start? looking at. And it also, you know, it depends what you want to do if you're the other team. Like if you, let's say, you know, Trey Young or Pascal or any of these guys, they need to trade and whoever it is just decides that they still want to compete.

Then I think taking it back a guy like that makes a ton of sense. Now, if it's like fire a sale time, then you probably go with one of the contracts that's on the bench instead and a bunch of picks. And maybe that works out better for a team like the Knicks that wants to win. I think actually seeing Randall in a role of being like the third guy would be really interesting on a championship team. Like that could work out pretty well. I could, I think, you know, cleaning up some of the tougher shots that he has to take, could do wonders for his efficiency. The Nixir, by the way, throughout this run, top three in unassisted field bowl percentage.

Yeah. So that's another reason that I think Siakum would fit really well. They're just kind of grease the wheels a little bit for the rest of the guys. Yeah. Randall is such an up and down. You know, it's funny to like check in with Nick's fans, which I know several. And it's funny to just sort of take the temperature on how they feel about him. Because, you know, to reference again, I guess I accompanied man, I'm going to push everybody to our top 100 list.

But when I wrote Julius Randall's top 100 thing back in like November, I kind of just let him have it for his play style. You know, I've been watching this guy for a while. He played here. Like, you know, and there were issues. I mean, he was incredible. in Kentucky, I can drag them to a final four, basically. But he has always kind of had this, like, he's wanted to evolve into a primary option.

He's had odd rosters. He played on a really weird-ass Lakers team, you know, and he broke his leg. He was on that last Kobe team and broke his leg on, like, the first game of the season, comes back. Then he's playing on an oddly constructed Pelicans roster with, like, with Drew Holiday,

and with Anthony Davis and everything. And then he gets his opportunity, and it's kind of like, I don't know. I don't know. I could definitely see him adopting that low touch time screener get off the ball, take open shots, attack when it's there. But he really, really loves those sort of dribble pull-ups. And he's obsessed with that being like a steady part of his diet.

I know that that comes with like making a lot of money typically, you know, like that player identity is going to yield a lot of money and a different lifestyle. But I think for his basketball life, and I kind of feel it this way about RJ too, it's best, I think, for him if he takes on like the high quality role player thing, you know, because there are real peaks in valleys with this. And I was saying checking in with Knicks fans, when I would check in with my friends that are Knicks fans like back in October, November, their attitude about Randall was hilarious, like how angry they were at him. And then it circles all the way back around recently. He's been playing better. And you check in and you just start hearing griping from Nick's fans again, defending him because he's playing well and he has played well.

So I don't know. I just think the ups and downs of that. Randall, I don't know. I just kind of struggle with the idea of him being like a really primary piece of a team that's like has championship aspirations. I think we kind of fall on the same page there. And there isn't really. I mean, right now we can kind of play.

we can play with a trade machine all we want, but we're in a weird situation right now with basketball. I think despite the trade deadline coming up, there just hasn't been a lot of action yet. It could be one of those trade deadlines where everything happens a week before, but we're three weeks out, and it's still just a bunch of trade rumors.

And part of that is to be expected. It's just kind of just parity, right? And there's a lot of teams that can tell themselves that they want to stay in the hunt and try to make the play-in game. And I'll be curious to see. we should kind of check back in on that after the deadline, just see how many teams decide to stay with the rosters that they have right now,

try to compete for the play-in, and how many teams decide that they want to basically risk it off for Wembenyama? I think I would recommend that for most of the teams that are, you know, just as Missyajiri once said, play in for what? I would take that attitude if I was pretty much any team. Now, every team doesn't think the same, but that's just me. But we should check in on that because if in a draft that has Wembenyama and Scoot Henderson and also just pretty much up until like, I mean, you know more, but I would say up until like 9 or 10, like there's some real potential superstar athletes in it for teams to decide not to tank.

And this season would just be a resounding victory for Adam Silver and the success of the plan. Definitely, definitely. I think it gives, I don't know, there's always this pushing pull of like, you want to win, but teams are also thinking about like excitement equals dollars. So it's like if you can get people amped, you think about like the team we're going to talk about Minnesota, just or New Orleans getting to the plan, that plan energy gets people excited. But, you know, the sustained end goal of trying to get to the top of the mountain, obviously, is going to trump that most every time.

And you're talking about circling back for the Knicks, that's going to be key because coming up, leading up to the trade deadline, they have an impressive daunting gauntlet ahead of them from January today. We're recording this on the 17th. From January 20th until the 5th of February, they have at Atlanta, at Toronto, home against the calves, at Boston, at Brooklyn, the Lakers, Miami, the Clippers, and the Sixers. So I think it'll be interesting to see if there's any kind of regression or how they feel after that. But at the end of the day, I don't really know that it changes the like the broader overarching narrative for the NICS, you know? I think it might tell you something about what you, what kind of move you need to make.

But I don't know that it changes the big picture thing for them because I mean, I think at most they're going to be like chippy, scrappy in a playoff series right now. But they're definitely still, and this isn't, you know, a shocking revelation. I think that they still have to make the big move. It's just maybe this will help them dial in a little bit more of what that move needs to be. Yeah, I think it just gives them a little bit more leeway, a little bit more to play with, and it makes them a little bit more attractive while they wait for, you know, some other franchise to flame out and for their superstar to get unhappy, which seems like a great place to say, let's take a break and then talk about the Minnesota Timberwolves.

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Okay, so talking about knowing yourself, you talked about how the NICs made a move for Fournier and for Kimba, and they sort of got away from the thing that was working. Speaking of things that were working, last season, the Minnesota Timberwolves had a nice surge, into the first round of the playoffs. They got into a series against the Grizzlies who gave the eventual champion warriors all they wanted. There was a time in that series

where it definitely seemed possible that Minnesota could pull this off. They had a really aggressive up-tempo style last season, and it suited their personality. They had big, long, lanky athletes with McDaniels, with Jared Vanderbilt, with Anthony Edwards,

with even Pat Bev out there was causing havoc and setting their identity. They were first in a league in pace last year, their eighth this year. They went and made. You know, you and I did a pod back in the summer trying to play devil's advocate and think about how this could work. They trade, you know, an ocean, an armada of picks to the jazz for Rudy Gobert,

shipping off like Leandro Balmero and Jared Vanderbilt and a pick that would end up becoming Walker Kessler. We'll talk on that one here in a second. The wolves find themselves in a situation. that has, if you think about like the multiverse of the basketball, you know, the basketball multiverse, it feels like they branched off into an arm of their multiversal timeline that was not one that, that it's been less than desirable. They're off track. So Tim Connolly is basically like Loki, that's what you're saying. I didn't know if you'd watched it. I didn't want to be

too specific in my references there because you're nerdy, but I never know how nerdy or what type of nerdy you are. You know, I didn't know if you'd watch Loki. You usually stay away from Marvel, but our guy, Justin Barrier, recommended that it basically it strays away from some of the things I don't tend to like about Marvel. Oh, Verrier likes Loki? I didn't know that. I wouldn't have thought that. Anyway, fundamentally, how do you think that the wolves betrayed their identity? Well, there's a lot of things that happened. First of all, I love Tim Connolly. I think he's great. I think he's, you know, he's the architect of the Nuggets who have, you know, been one of the better homegrown projects in the NBA and are a delight to watch and could very well win a championship this year. That said, you know, it feels like this ownership group came in and just really wanted to make a splash and, you know, just start changing things to

just surely change things, right? They had Sachin Gupta. It always goes well when you do that, right? Oh yeah, it's perfect. You know, when you just come in, you start, you start messing with stuff. Now they had Sachin Gupta who had never been a president of basketball operations before he's not necessarily a name but he had good relationships in the org he had good relationship with Kat they had just extended Chris Finch who you know by the way like if you want to talk about that

that first round playoff series do you remember the way that they were that the players were talking about Chris Finch it is just so unusual for for players to show that much reverence and appreciation for their coaches. But, you know, like, they just would have run through a wall for him. Like, they felt like they were all kind of in the foxhole together.

And, you know, Finch was also a new coach. Yeah, he's just like, yeah, he's great. And they really, they had this sort of identity together as a team. And they played a style that, you know, as you said, they blitzed a lot on defense. They were very aggressive. They ran around a ton. They had Anthony Edwards, who was basically like, you know, the alpha dog. going Manu and Manu with John Moran.

These teams had a lot of different, a lot of parallels. And the wolves just, they had this off season that completely undercut the things that they were building towards. And like they get rid of Patrick Beverly, who the younger players, especially at really adored. I think that's a big part of maybe, maybe an underrated part of their struggles this year,

especially on the defense event. Like there are nights when they are playing, you know, like they lost the circledess pistons. They had a huge half-time deficit against the rockets. They lost to the pistons again. Like there's these teams that, you know, over the course of an 82 game schedule,

you still have to be a professional and have some pride and try. And if you don't, they can sneak up on you. And they just really lack energy at times this season, which I think is part of the reason why it's actually really hard to diagnose exactly what the issue is. Now, Towns has obviously been out too. But, you know, you went and you did some, digging and through different portions of their season.

They've been really streaky to try to figure out what it is that's going on with them. And that's like, what did you come away with Kyle? I'm just laughing because it's just so bizarre. They've been incredibly streaky. They lost six or seven in early November, turn around in one five in a row. Then they lost six in a row to end December. And then they turned around and went one six of eight to start January. It's been it's been super just.

I think the thing that you said there was key, and that is like just continuing to have pride and it has, has mom or just caring about like, you know, any team of the NBA can come in. These are the most talented players in the world. They can come in and surprise you, you know, like Oklahoma City. I don't even know if this is the best example, but they came in and just kicked it hung off 150 points on perceivably one of the best teams in the league in the Celtics. Like it can happen to anybody. And I think that, you know, you can't rest on anything. And I think that they've struggled because I feel like they definitely compromise some of that identity and there's a lack of continuity. Some of that I think is like at the point of attack, I think has been sort of an issue for them. Like if you watch like the ability to stay attached and their effort to stay attached, I was like rewatching part of the jazz game the other night, which was sort of I think a particularly like subject of like soreness for the wolves considering they're the team. team that they made that deal with, that everybody's kind of pointing that and being like, hey, I think you fuck this up. Like, they come to town and basically are just turnstiles on defense, like the wolves are, the jazz are just getting into the pain at will, which is causing them to get into rotations, which is causing the offensive glass to be open. And Walker Kessler,

the guy that they traded away, the guy that Tim Connolly has talked about being excited to draft, or I think Chris Finch said he was excited to draft, has turned out to be like a really high I value rim protector on a rookie deal, whereas you have this guy, Rudy Gobert, who doesn't fit with your star necessarily. And I was going to say this to you, you know, the wolves do have a weird history of sort of mis-evaluating who fits with Kat, in my opinion. I don't know. Have you thought about this at all? Like, A, they bring in Jimmy Butler a few years ago, which if you knew anything about Carl Towns as a person, I was like, that's not going to work. I just knew I knew immediately that was not going to work.

and then they go and try to cater to Carl and say like you want, okay, you want DeAngelo Russell to come in here. I don't think that they did him any favors by doing that either. So it's kind of like, A, you know, like as a superstar, it sucks that you have to be so careful with Carl Towns and who you put around him. But yeah, they do have a history of that, I guess is my overall point. And then I don't know, I feel like at the point of attack,

this has been a really big issue for them defensively. You know, De Angelel Russell, who you said has been playing better lately. He hasn't played a little bit better lately, but I think that doesn't take away from the larger point that you're making here, which is the second that that trade went down, everybody was like, wow, this could be a really interesting pick and roll attack that is going to give up as many points as it creates. And it ended up being worse than that. I think that's a really good point. Kat is, Kat is interesting to build around just because of his defensive deficiencies from the center position. And I think that there's a way that you can understand why, if this was a Connolly move, you know, he would come in from having spent all this time trying to build around Nicola Yolkidge,

who has similar challenges, but has personally taken it upon himself to improve upon those. In ways that I think actually Kat has as well, I think his rim protection at certain moments in the first round against Memphis was actually pretty good. Now, I don't think that he's going to be like your stopper by any means, but I think there's a version of Carl Towns where his defense does not leave quite as much to be desired, where if you put him around the right personnel, and maybe Walker Kessler-esque personnel, like not such a dramatic turn. But you can see why Tim Connolly coming from a situation that he came from would have this sort of idea of let's surround, you know, this guy who really needs a lot of help. on defense with the former defensive player of the year who has like all the wingspan in the world and can make up for all the

space that you know everybody else is going to give up and that includes DeAngel too and it includes at times like an Anthony Edwards that is still learning the personnel that he is defending at times there was a moment in the Utah game where Jordan Clarkson went by him and

hit a crazy photo shot and you could just see Ant like look down at Clarks on the ground he was surprised And that just, I mean, that just seems like a theme. That might be the symbol for the Timberwolves defense in general this year, just really, really unprepared against, you know, opponents that they should have had a little bit more respect for. I didn't think I'd be saying these things about Jordan Clarkson today on this podcast,

but here we are. You're part of like Big Clarkson lobby, I feel like. You're one of the foremost defenders, I think, you know, in a world that needs Jordan Clarkson defenders, I think, I don't know. It has a deficit for sure. I think the playmaking gains that he made this season really surprised and impressed me. I think I am actually, I'm a zealot because I'm a convert because there was a time where you cannot cannot be found dead defending Jordan Clarkson. You were like on the road to Damascus and you had a serious like spiritual, you know, reference.

You had a spiritual like awakening to Clarkson. So you were you were radicalized for Jordan Clarkson basically is what I'm saying. Yeah, I've been red-pilled. Speaking of DeAngelo, I want to do. to make sure we referenced this incredible on-brand, DeAngelo Russell, local Louisvilleian, Louisville legend, I guess. He was quoted in an article by Jake Fisher. You either take advantage of me and my ability or fuck up the opportunity with me.

It's as simple as that. Damn. That's my 2023 energy. Sure. I mean, I do respect the energy. I mean, that's speaking, talking about knowing yourself. I mean, he definitely has an appraisal of himself. Do you think DeAngel O Russell, if they had stood Pat,

do you think that, like, DeAngel O Russell could have continued to be like a major piece for them? Or is he not long for Minnesota? What do you think? I think he actually really liked the role that he was in last season. I think that he was pretty good as a defensive communicator on their perimeter for them. I think he figured out how to play, you know, in that scramble system. I think if you, you know, dropping on defense, disjuncture is a lot like,

just defending isolations. Like the way that basketball is played right now, I don't think that there is too much of a difference between how you have to defend your, you know, the guy on the point of attack between whether you're switching or on the drop on the pick and roll. And it's just not really a position

that Daniel Russell has ever been that great at. Like he just gives up, he just has, he leaves a lot to be desired just in terms of his way. And he can get bullied by opposing players. and I think that the system suited him more last year. I think he probably had a little bit more of a voice in the locker room last year as well. That said, he just hasn't really had the type of season to back up those words at all.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that might be part of the larger Timberwolves issue, right? Like your role changes so much. Although one more thing on that, actually, ironically, Russell is probably the player, who has benefited the most or at least lost the least in terms of playing alongside Gobert. If you look at like kind of their on-off numbers when they're together, this is kind of, this just gets into why

this move just really shook up everything about the Timberwolves at their core. It takes Carl Anthony Towns out of the paint and he puts him at the four position, which is a position that he's never played in his life. And I just don't know that you should do that with your super. Superstar, even though we, yes, it's a positionless league and all that stuff. But Towns just, he gets the free throw line a lot less. Anthony Edwards goes from, you know, he's developing this pick and roll chemistry with, with Kat.

That could be absolutely devastating when you put both of those guys together and, you know, Anthony developing his pull-up game and finding more of like a ways to be a three-level score alongside Towns who can score in every possible way in the NBA who can who can, who can. who can go in a short roll, who can, you know, drop. And if you get the layup, that's great. But if you don't, you just give it to him in the post. He can operate from there or he can hit a corner passer. Like, they just, they were on their way to developing a very multifaceted attack that it took, like, it took Stephen Adams out of the Grizzly series. And it took basically, I mean, one of the best and most versatile and most physical defenses.

And Brandon Clark and, you know, Desmond Bain and Dylan. But like, it took a lot to stop those guys. Yeah. Yeah, they were still physically imposing without, you know what I mean? They were fly around and disruptive. That was sort of their thing. But they all, you know, they had the turnover numbers, but they were really forcing a lot of turnovers. Yeah, it just seems like they sort of like, what's the word, nerfed the sort of switchability.

And like, Vando was a good fit for them defensively, I think. You know, he brings his offensive issues. But I think, too, that like in the half court, you were talking about like Anthony's development. he's a guy who like his rim pressure is really valuable. So if you're going to put Gobert out there, it's sort of a natural flawed proposition just because you're going to have an extra defender who's going to be roaming because of Gobert's, you know,

Gobert's either going to like take one step and drop it in or catch a lob. And that's pretty much it. He's not like an astute super short roll pass or things like that. You just think about that guy is there and that's going to hurt Anthony Edwards. And then it feeds into, I think Ant's pull-up game could get to a proficient. spot, but it's not really there. He's one of the more inefficient dribble pull-up, like, tough shots. I was tweeting this the other night that I feel like tough shots are the thing that I'm

hoping he'll settle for. And if you're putting this team out there as imagined, I feel like it definitely does penalize sort of the shot priority, the shot priorities that are healthiest for Anthony Edwards and feed into like his most healthy, most healthy, productive version of himself. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think he said as much probably about a month ago. It's just like, there just isn't not much space out there anymore. And he's nimble enough to navigate that, but it definitely is just tough because he's a power athlete, way more than he is,

like a slinky kind of an athlete, you know? Yeah. And I think at core, you just, at the core of this is just you don't want to make moves that make, you know, navigating the court harder for your two best players that you're hoping grow together. Mm-hmm.

So that was kind of the issue. And yeah, I don't know. It's kind of like what we thought would be the issue as well. And I just wonder if you look at the place that the wolves found themselves in towards the end, like towards the end when it,

you know, they lost that series. And I think the things that you probably point to are just a general, like, immaturity, right? Like they gave up a lot of leads. I think there was that moment. And I can't remember now the series, just do basketball series that happened like, I don't know,

six months ago now, like to you just feel like they were years ago because I've been trying to remember the series and there was a moment where it looked like you know like Towns was kind of already like pre-celebrating even though like all they'd done is like tie it up

there are things like that that sounds like Carl yeah there were things like that there was just there were the turnover issues but there were also tactical things that I think if you give a team space to solve especially a young team they could have

figured it out. Now, like, I think the Grizzlies, the season that they're having coming off that playoff series is really indicative of maybe what a version of the wolves that didn't change everything could have done. Right. Now, I think the Grizzlies were a step ahead of the wolves already. So maybe this is a little bit unfair, but I think I just look at, because all the same problems that plague the Grizzlies are the same problems that plague the wolves, right? A lot of turnovers, a lot of foul trouble. Carl Towns had a lot of foul trouble. So did Jare. and Jackson, and so did Dylan Brooks on the other side for the Grizzlies. Jaron Jackson now is averaging a career high in blocks, 3.2 blocks per game.

I don't know where that is in the league overall, but that's incredible. And he's also averaging a career low in fouls as well. Desmond Bain has basically stepped up and become like the off-driple creation plus volume shooting that they missed in the playoffs last year that I think like Jha really needed as an outlet and to not have like so much stuff beyond him that maybe that contributes. to part of the injury issues. Jaws making better decisions. Like we can go down the line with little things that the Grizzlies players have done this

season that have kind of allowed them to make the jump from like, whoa, this team is really exciting to like, oh, this team could like go to the NBA finals this year. And I don't think like the wolves were situated to make that type of jump that quickly. But I think they were situated to make a jump to where the Grizzlies were last year. And I think like if you look at some of the things that they struggled with, towns in the post trying to make cross-court passes against what is now the best defense in the NBA. Yes, he's going to have some turnovers. Let's maybe give him some reps with that.

He's an incredibly talented passer. Let's see what that looks like in six months. Let's see where Anthony Edwards is in six months. Let's see how Daniel Russell even is in six months. Let's see what kind of progress Vanderbilt makes and McDaniels. Walker Kessler, like these players that could step in and sort of plug in the holes. And this is something that I just, I think, really appreciate about Memphis's development over the last, you know, pretty much since the climbing regime has taken over,

is that they find the right players to put around their guys in order to give them a little bit of space to improve and also allow the teams to their team to win. They put a bunch of low turnover guys around John Moran. So even though Jha was coughing up the ball a ton last season, the Grizzlies were overall a low turnover team. And I think

the wolves with the Gobert thing did that to an extent that has completely just taken away who they are. I think if you look at what the wolves were trying to do, you can argue that bringing in Gobert is a version. of that, but the version of that that they tried to

get to is just so different than the team that they had last year. It's not like it was like this incremental move. And I also just wonder, I don't know this, but when you look at a team that just hasn't had energy this year and they would come out and just, you know, just destroy opponents this year. Part of that is probably losing Pat Bev, but maybe on a more kind of like spiritual team-building level,

it's the fact that they just didn't believe that this roster as constructed could do those things. And I think that maybe they were wrong to think that. Yeah, I think that you're right. They undermine sort of the personality of the team. But coming back to the theme of this pod, which is trusting yourself, I like their draft. That was the thing.

We talked about how punishing it has been to see Walker Kessler go. Walker Kessler, we talked a lot about this is little in the weeds. But, I mean, Auburn's guards last year really penalized Jabari Smith because of his play style. Definitely seems like Auburn's guards penalized Walker Kessler as well, maybe in a way. But he was a really good college room protector, though, and if they just stood pat and brought him in. But the other one, too, that I think is interesting is I thought Wendell Moore was a really

good pick. You want to bring in somebody at Duke, just to give you an idea, he was a guy who really did well whenever he would draw defensive help in the pick and roll. He was like a 40% three-point shooter. He hasn't been able to throw in the ocean in the NBA so far. He's sticking like 12 threes. I think he's made like two. I think those things are going to even out and they trust.

If they want to reset, the problem is just like, I don't know how they're going to do that. They gave up all of their draft capital. And now they've got these big fat contracts. I don't know how you're going to move him. I definitely think Bill was talking about the other day about how DeAngelo Russell's role in the league is going to shift, I think, and be seen differently that he's not necessarily a primary. He's more suited as like a roamer and score like that, like that. a DH in that sense, second unit flamethrower kind of a thing.

I wish that they had trusted that. And I honestly don't know where they were going from here. I was talking to you about figuring out a way to get like a guy like a Zach Hart on this team. I just think they need to re-inject. Yeah, good old Zach Hart. Not Zach Hart. That's a dude I used to know. Josh Hart, sorry.

Shut up Zach. Josh Hart is what I'm thinking of. Yeah, I think Josh Hart would be a good fit. But I've been trying to just think of guys like that, like point of attack pressure can shoot the ball and also get off the ball quickly. I just think they need to reinvigorate themselves and pivot back in that direction. It's just going to be really difficult for them in terms of like when the moves that are available to them. That's really their only option at this point, right? Because they're not going to get what they gave up for Rudy at this point.

And unless you want to completely retool. And obviously DeAngel Russell is out in these trade rumors, right? but like when has he not been out in these trade rumors? He's basically, he's like the John Collins of the West. Like it feels like they've been looking for his deal for him for a while. And then it may be way worse. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. With respect to John Collins, of course. But they, yeah, it doesn't look like there's a lot of deals out there.

And I will say like there are moments when it looks like maybe they could turn a corner. Now, if you look at the total dysfunction going around the league right now, in certain places. 22 and 23 and the 9th seed. Now that's not where they expected to be, but when you consider that Towns has been out, what now is now has been six weeks,

not sure when he's coming back. That's not horrible. Like they could maybe figure some things out, and it seems like they are figuring out a few things. I think Edwards has been a lot more aggressive the last few games, and I think he's taking it upon himself, to be the defensive energy that they need

or just see general energy that they need. So maybe, I don't know, maybe just the fact that this is a team that while everybody else in the league is just looking to see what they can get at the deadline and kind of worry about where they're going to be, like they kind of know that they're stuck with each other. So maybe we'll see some level of improvement here.

Maybe down the line, like we'll see a little bit more chemistry. We'll see them, you know, picking up new defensive schemes and things like that. And then you reintegrate towns and things could potentially work out. But I think the issue here is just that this is not the team that the Timberwolves imagined that they'd be and little larger problems that we've talked about here are not going to go away even if they play a better defense. I think it's just going to make them into the best version of the team that we thought that we thought that they could be.

But right now it just seems like all the things that could have doomed them that we talked about after the trade have all sort of happened. Yeah, and so this is really a wait and see kind of a thing. You know, we can all speculate about what's going to happen, but it's going to have to play out. All righty, so like there's going to be a lot more chatting coming up about, I think we're going to do another episode of Hoops Hospital coming up here soon so we can kind of bounce around the league and do quick hitters about other teams and figure out what their problems are and what they maybe need to do,

speculate about all of those things. But yep, this has been the answer. Thanks to Chris Hornet Legg Sutton for producing us and drop us a line. If you have a question for the answer, maybe we'll do another questioning the answer here soon, possibly. Hit us up on Twitter. Sir, good to see you. Good to see you too, pal.

All righty. Peace out.