The Ringer NBA Show - The Lakers Squeak Out a Win, Plus: Holding Out for a Herro, and the Bulls’ Future With Donovan | The Mismatch

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

Chris and Kevin get together to talk about the Lakers’ narrow win over the Nuggets to go up 3-1 in the Western Conference finals (1:22), the superstar-esque heroics of Tyler Herro in Miami’s win over Boston to go up 3-1 (27:51), and the Bulls’ new look with head coach Billy Donovan (58:10).  Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Mismatch is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken original logger is made of pure malt and their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season all-the-time kind of beer. Oh, what is better than this weekend? You got college football starting out. You still got the Eastern and Western Conference Finals going on in the NBA, and then you got NFL Sunday going on. There is nothing better than going to the fridge

and grabbing a cold Heineken popping it and then kick it back and watching the game. You can pick up a pack or have it delivered today and drink responsibly. This episode of The Mismatch is also supported by the FX original series Fargo. Family is complicated. Crime is organized. The all-new Fargo takes you to 1950s Kansas City, where two criminal syndicates have struck an uneasy truce as they both fight for their peace of the American dream. The new installment of Fargo starring Chris Rock and Jason Swartzman premieres with back-to-back episodes, September 27th at 9 p.m. on FX and streams next day, FX on Hulu. Now, the mismatch.

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Join him as he does every Friday on The Ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Climber, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin Ocandyland, Kevin Ophysiating. Kevin! What's going on, Chris? Well, I think we're both, as we're recording this, after we just watched the Lakers Denver game four. I think we both come to this a little underwhelmed by the way it all played out in that game.

The Lakers end up winning that game by six points. They have the dreaded 3-1 lead on the Denver Nuggets before this series started. You know, Mike Malone had joked, why don't we just make it 3-1 right now? You know, why don't we just go ahead and fast forward and we'll just make it 3-1 and then we can play out the series from there. But all joking aside, this was, it was a good basketball game, but it is not going to be one of those that is, I think we've been treated to an inordinate amount of extremely memorable basketball games. And I think this one was, it's kind of a mess there at the end. Denver didn't score for the last three and a half minutes. There was a lot of foul calls in that fourth quarter.

Too much. Wait, too. I mean, it just, it breaks up the flow. Swallow your whistle sometimes, please.

I get officiatings hard, but tone it down a little bit, please. Blame the Lakers. They're the ones that sent off all their stuff to the, they sent their stuff off to the league saying that they weren't getting enough calls and LeBron especially. And so this is what we wrought.

You knew there was going to be something, you know, there was got to be some level of course correction when a premier franchise complaints about foul calls publicly. And it's not necessarily false that LeBron wasn't getting some of the calls that maybe you expect him to get it that he has gotten in the past. But that's not why the Nuggets lost this game, though. Ultimately, it's from the amount of second chance points and second chance opportunities

that the Lakers got throughout the game. Dwight Howard getting as many offensive rebounds as he did in the first half, ending with six in the total game. Rondo coming up with that clutch offensive board down the stretch of the game when he was left open. That's one of the flaws sometimes when leaving a shooter open is you don't have somebody to box them out. And Rondo being the head, the headsie player that he is, you know, weaseling his way in there into the paint and grabbing the board was a big time play. And that's where you point to Denver losing this game is lack of, you know, defensive rebounding and also

Yokic didn't have a great game either. Yeah, they create those extra possessions. Like you mentioned, They got the 12 offensive rebounds. They also got nine steals in the game. So they were creating themselves some extra possessions. You know, you look at that box, though, Kev. And it's Denver outshot them from the field. They outshot them from three. They outshot them from the free throw line.

They just went less times to the free throw line. Like all across the board, the numbers are right there, and they're in Denver's favor, except for that free throw line where, you know, they end up going, the Lakers go 12 more times. They make eight more free throws. The final margin of the game is six. Now, in the end, the Lakers stopped them from scoring when it mattered most. That's what it came down to to me.

I mean, the last three. Well, and you know what? He took on that challenge of guarding Murray. He fouled him the one time and got away with it on the drive. but other than that, he did a fantastic job on him. And you mentioned Rondo. If they don't have Rondo, they don't win this game. In the second half, how many big plays?

And then when they rested LeBron in that third quarter, he just, like you saw the one inbound pass that was unbelievable that got him an easy basket to KCP, I believe. You saw the Alley Upe that he threw to Anthony Davis. it was like LeBron went out of the game and it just became Rondo's show. And next thing you know, they're up by nine or ten again. I thought, I thought he was just unbelievable. And the whole playoff Rondo thing we've talked about before.

I mean, it's so real. He is just not the same player. He's just not. We watched him play throughout this regular season. For the last two years. Well, the last four years for that matter. I mean, it's like the lights come on and this is like a ratchel. radically different basketball player than what we get used to seeing throughout the year.

I think a lot of it is what's important in the playoffs. You know, you need to have guys who have high IQs who make quick decisions. And that's what Rondo does. You're right? I mean, the game slows down and you need guys that you can rely on to make proper rotations on defense who can make nice passes off the dribble, whether it's as a lead ball handler like him or as a guy just facilitating within the flow of the offense like his teammate, Alex Caruso. You've got to have guys like that. And with Rondo, I mean, I'm sure part of it is an

effort thing for him, you know, just giving more effort on defense, especially man to man. But a lot of it is probably just the nature of the game changing around Rondo, which elevates some of his skills that over the course of an 82 game regular season, maybe don't have as much importance. I wonder if now, so we talk about Rondo and how he brought to the table. We always talking about the guys that play well, but you mentioned in passing also Yokic. Do you think it is, do you think that the Dwight Howard starting him had this profound effect on Yokic in this game? And I say that because he was all the energy. I mean, Howard was the energy in this game for the Lakers, especially in that first half. I mean, you get the

half time and the guys already amassed a double double. And it was like, like coach is letting me start and you just like is it was like it was like he had all of this pent up energy and he's going to go prove to the coach you made the right decision and Dwight was fantastic. I mean, you got to give him his credit. And I really thought that you just never got, you never got the yokech we're used to in this game. And I do, I mean, you've got to wonder if, you know,

You kind of get some swagger going when Javall McGee's in there and they're trying to like figure things out. And I, in retrospect, you wonder, what the hell did they ever start Javall McGee for? Like, seriously? What is the point? It worked. It worked over the full season. I mean, he just doesn't come back in the game anyway. You know what I'm saying?

Like, they play him at the beginning of the game and then like we never see him again hardly. And Dwight is clearly the better player. He is the better player. I mean, maybe with Vogel. was like you like having Howard's energy off the bench. You know, like that's the logic there. You know,

come off and provide a spark at a time when a starter's off the floor. But do you think he messed up Yokch for the game? I mean, it's, it's weird. It's, it's weird. I don't want to say like he,

he solely, you know, with his energy and enthusiasm on the floor and his toughness threw off Yokic. I would have to, I do get to watch the game back and see what they were doing against Yokch, but it's not like they did anything special, you know?

They weren't taking the ball. away from him with double teams or constant pressure or anything like that. It was just sometimes playing him straight up and maybe sometimes the offense didn't get to him. The offense found itself through somebody else. Jamal Mario obviously had a really strong game until towards the end when LeBron got stuck on him. I'm not sure if it's really anything the Lakers did, to be totally honest with you. To me, like it stood as another game where Yokic sometimes like we've seen this over the course of his career where sometimes he just kind of fades out.

He only had 13 shots tonight. That's nowhere near as many as he needs to have. Yeah, Kevin, you look at just the last couple of games, okay, the fourth quarter of the last three games. So in game two, Yokic had 12 points in the fourth quarter. Games three and games four, he has zero points. He's 0 of 5 from the field. He's 0 of 1 from 3 point range. And he's taken no free throws in the last two games.

that's incredible. Yeah. I mean, so like, you know, TNT put up the graphic losing steam. You know, like is this, is catching? Because I've seen these numbers over the course of the past couple of days with LeBron, right? Which is when you are asked, yeah, and when you're asked to do this every single night and you've got to deliver that these guys are wearing down and by the time they get to the fourth quarter, I mean, it stands to reason.

How is, how has Yokic got zero points in the fourth quarter of the last? two games and is 0 of 5 from the field. I mean, that is, that's incredible. Yeah, it is. In two games? Maybe he just wanted to be down three to one. He's just sabotaging because he knows. Now we have them right where we want them.

Exactly. But I mean, this is the guy that we came on and we did the show last week. And one of the things we talked about was he's moved into a guy that you can throw the ball to and he could get his own shot. this guy can deliver down the stretch. Not only is he not delivering down the stretch, he's not delivering in the entire fourth quarter the last two games. I mean, that is implausible to me. I wonder how much of it, like,

mentally for him was the fall trouble tonight. He did have five falls for quite a while in that fourth quarter. Was he, you know, kind of taking it a little easy so he wouldn't fall out, hoping to save it for the end, you know, that type of thing. That can happen. Some guys get affected when they have that many falls on them and takes them out of the game.

Could have been that. Could have been a lot of different things. Bottom line, though, is that they needed more from him. They needed more team rebounding to stop the Lakers. And ultimately, one of the moves that helped win the game for the Lakers was, you know, Vogel said after the game that LeBron asked for the assignment to defend Jamal Murray. And he completely came through there. He did a great job defending him man to man when Murray, like some of those shots Murray hit

tonight, man. Like that's some wizardry, man. How do you do some of that? That was a, well, you know, look, we know that down the stretch, it's a two-man game, but the last two games, it's been a one-man game. It's been him, and it's easy. They're delivering for them, or he's not. All right, so they're in a familiar spot.

They're down 3-1. I still don't, I still don't count about completely. Are you giving them 0%? Zero point? I don't. What percent chance do you give Denver? This, the Yokets thing is alarming, Kev. Come on, bro.

I mean, no points in two fourth quarters in a row. That is alarming. And so that makes me a lot less confident. But look, I mean, I could go ahead and spoil because we're going to get to the East Finals too. I would be surprised if both of these series don't see a sixth game. I would. I would be surprised. I mean, I just think that it's three now, do they close, do both teams get closed out in a game?

six, I think so, right? But in terms of just flip-flopping throughout the series, you know, and when you're up 3-1, we talked about this when they were down 2-0. Just psychologically, it is hard. When you are coming off a win, it's hard to just close somebody out and have that total killer instinct, like my backs against the wall must-win mentality. Typically, that is only reserved for the team. And we talked about how you can't fake desperation. I think Denver will probably come out as a desperate team. You'll probably get a different Yokic for next game because, you know, you lose and this whole thing is over. So I wouldn't count them out completely.

Do I think they're going to come back and win the series? This is a bridge too far. I mean, frankly, I thought the Clippers was a bridge too far, but I do think this is going to be a bridge too far for them to do it three times in a row. Nobody's done it two times in a row. So banking against them doing three times. I'm not exactly going out on a limb. Of course. I would be surprised if they just get disposed of in the next game, though,

because, I mean, they're right there. They could have won this game tonight. And they could have won the other one as well. Yeah, right. They lost on an Anthony Davis shot. I mean, ultimately, though, like, you can't rule out Denver from winning a game or even two. I mean, they've been in these games. They could very well be tied in the series or, you know, and maybe even three one.

you know, if you won simulations of this a thousand times, maybe they're up 3-1, you know? But if I'm a Lakers fan, you know, you're feeling good being up 3-1 and obviously you want to close them out in 5. But I feel like watching this series, LeBron doesn't seem 100% to me right now. It doesn't seem 100%. 80 turned his ankle tonight, did not like 100% afterwards. If you're a Lakers fan, I would be wanting to. get this over with to maximize any amount of potential rest you'd get before the heat or Celtic series likely heat obviously they're up 3-1 as well but also just because you know miami

assuming it's them is presents a greater issues on the defensive end of the floor for you the lakers offense and this lakers offense and some of these fourth quarters gets so stagnant ball stops moving players stop moving it looks like bad offense and if i'm a lakers fan Yeah, you want to win because you want to advance to the finals, but you also want to win to show that this team can stomp its foot down when it needs to against the team that's going to be throwing every single thing they have at you. That's what Denver's going to do this next game to try to get back into it. The Lakers have to show that they could elevate to that level for this next series in the NBA finals.

The other thing is kept like, I mean, look, their defense was impressive. There's no way around that. The offense is not right now. It's just there's nothing that they did where you thought, oh, wow. You know, and they also, I don't know how you feel, they don't have something they go to. You know what I mean? I know, I know Yokic wasn't there for it tonight. But like, you know, they talked about how the, at one point the broadcasters are talking about how Denver's been in a million close games.

Like, you know what's coming. Like, this is what they're going to run everything off of this. this two-man game, whereas it feels way too much equal opportunity to me with the Lakers. And this could show back up when they're playing against, you know, somebody in an NBA finals or it may show up in a game five or a game six against Denver. You know, you get them in these close games and it's like, what is their go-to? And even with two minutes to go, it's a frigging KCP. pump fake step to the side three.

And it's like, what the hell? Like, it's a, this is a, this is a four point game. This is a five point game. Like, they don't just say, all right, throw it to Anthony Davis and get us home. Or, we did the other night. They did the other night. They didn't, though. They didn't, though, Kev.

They didn't. If Jamal Murray doesn't block Danny Green, the last three shots of those, that game, we're going to be taken by KCP, Caruso, and Danny Green. It was only by virtue. It was a lot of AD though. It was a lot of him down the stretch though. Right, but not the last two minutes. The last three shots of that game were all these guys where it would have been like,

I'm sitting there screaming at the tee. Like, why are you just not giving it to frigging Anthony Davis? And they, they weirdly just don't. You know what I mean? Like LeBron doesn't just like clear out on taking over and they don't just clear out. Kind of hard to clear out with a lack of spacing. I get it. I get it.

I get it. But I mean, it's like a, it's a KCP3 and then a, you know, it's a Rondo offensive rebound. Or it's like, I mean, like the shots they get and the players that take them are not, not great, not great. And I. And like I just said, like LeBron also doesn't seem 100% to me. I mean, he's still obviously awesome at whatever percentage, you know, he is right now.

But it doesn't seem like he has full trust in himself physically, nor doesn't seem like he has full trust in himself as a perimeter shooter at the moment. Oh, boy. He's reluctant from three. For a guy, I mean, they're Janus numbers. They are. His three-point shooting numbers are Janus numbers. And think about how we think of Janus.

I think we certainly elevate LeBron to a higher status than Janus in terms of leaving him open. But, I mean, he, the misses, the LeBron. Ron three misses and the fadeaway misses, like, they're just not even close. They're like front rimmers, their air balls, their total brinks. Like, it's just odd. It's odd. And maybe you're right. And I think that, look, certainly some of that has to be fatigue.

It's year, whatever it is, 17 for him. And you've played a million games in this bubble back to back to back. I mean, there's some kind of correlation that's going on with these. fourth quarters. He's been there for it long enough for us to know he's not a shrinking violet when it comes to fourth quarters. Something is up. And I don't know. I still just, I watch them and I don't, I don't come away from that game going not nearly as impressed as I was, say with Miami, right, where you're like, God bless, they could throw it the five different guys that might knock down that shot.

And I'll tell you what, that's why Miami's got a shot. They got a shot. For sure they do. Watching this Lakers team, you watch them, it's like they feel a little tired. The heat on the other hand, I mean, they're full of energy, man, across the roster. They also don't like that Lakers team, you never see them whipping the ball around to the extra shot. You know what I'm saying?

Like where you see that so much and you see that a lot with Boston. you see a lot with Miami. You saw it a lot with Toronto. You even saw it with Milwaukee. Like those Eastern teams, the Western Conference has played a lot more isolation basketball. And maybe that's just because of the sheer star power in the Western Conference. But how many times do you see like a four-pass possession on the,

the Lakers have? Like never. I'd be curious to see the numbers, you know. Never. I don't think they've ever had a possession where they've, passed it four or five times. We don't have access to second spectrum data. I wish we did.

That would be amazing. It would elevate what we're able to do on the show and at the briner and general. We're just trusting my eyeballs. Well, yeah. My eyeballs are third spectrum data. Yes, they are third spectrum. But second spectrum does have the numbers behind it.

I know we trust third spectrum from Chris Vernon the most. But I would love to see the numbers from second spectrum for like possessions with a shot attempt after, you know, seven passes. Oh, God. That's never happened. Well, you remember they used to chart that in Golden State. That was a big thing. What did he want to get to?

I can't even remember the number anymore. Was it 170 passes or something like that? It was something crazy. Some obscene number. They had some number. It might have been more like 300 or something. Well, and there was a correlation between when we get to this number, we win like crazy. And it does show us how much we're sharing the ball.

whereas think of a, think of a Lakers possession where they pass the ball. And for that matter, the nuggets aren't exactly whipping the ball around everywhere either, right? This has been a lot of individual and on the nugget side. I mean, it was it was Murray or it was felt like the only other ones I really remember outside of like a Jeremy Grant, you know, three here or a Millsap play there, were the Porter ones where he got Coosma to fly by him. You know? Like other than that, do you remember any kind of like great team basketball where these teams are whipping it around and getting?

I mean, I mean, every team has different styles and, you know, they play to their strengths in some ways. But like to the to the point, overall point we're talking about with the fourth quarter offense, that's where you would like to see some of that movement. And often for the Lakers in fourth quarters,

they just become so stagnant and they start running. actual offensive sets. And I wonder, like, is that a vocal issue? Is that a coaching problem? Is it a player chemistry problem? Is it just clashing of skills? Is it just a lack of shooting and what the defense does? Odds are, it's all of it. And in one way or another, and maybe against different opponents, it's one thing more than the other thing. But the fact is, is the Lakers, if they make the NBA finals, which in all likelihood they will, against Miami, they're, gonna have to get that fourth quarter offense better than we've seen last couple games against the Nuggets because it's been really tough to watch that.

You've seen it a lot over the course of LeBron's career too, though. You have. I mean, the team does, you're going to play as LeBron plays, and LeBron will pound the ball into the ground and, you know, drive and make the one pass. And then you're expected to make that shot. And there might be a swing pass. There might not. But, like, that's pretty well.

It's kind of like a clear-out. Now it's his show. And that's the other thing that, you know, we'll find out on the fourth quarters how often he's able to deliver. Because you know, there's no mystery is who's starting that possession with the ball in their hands. It's just a matter of when they collapse on him. He chucks it out and you're expected to make that shot, you know. But that's been like that. LeBron teams have never been known for their fantastic ball movement.

and moving and like, you know, setting screens for each other, cutting to the basket. It's just LeBron and four guys that stand around and he throws it to him and you better hit the damn shot. Which it can't, which it can't be. Well, maybe not in here 17. It might not be able to be that, right? Or, I mean, or it depends on the personnel too.

Like this Lakers, you know, shooting around him is probably not up to what even some of those Cleveland teams were, never mind the Miami teams. And that's where I think Vogel, probably needs to get this team moving. There was one possession, I believe, in the fourth quarter, where all four Lakers on the floor were just staring at LeBron. They were ball watching LeBron. You can't be doing that.

You need to be setting off ball screens to get guys open or cutting off ball. And there's none of that. And against the team like the heat next round, assuming both of them advance, it's just got to be better. It's going to be better. Or Miami's going to make it a much longer series than I think it should be for the Lakers with the sheer talent they have in AD and LeBron James,

they have unarguably the two best players in that potential series, but Miami might have the next five or six or maybe even seven. I mean, depending on how you want to rank them, it's going to be a top series next round, assuming they both advance. All right, well, we will talk about if we think Miami is going to advance. I do that right after these words.

Today's episode of The Mismatch is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken would like to remind you that it's time for seasonal beers again. That's right. If you thought the cold, crisp summer Heineken was something, just wait until you see the Heineken fall lineup. Is it a new product? No. Just the same great tasting lager that's perfect for any season. Heineken is perfect for this time of the year.

It just turned fall. We got football going on all over the weekend. We got the NBA conference finals going on. that we'll have the NBA finals going on. This is the best sports time of the year, and there's nothing better than going to the fridge and grabbing a cold Heineken. I grab a cold Heineken after every episode of the mismatch,

whether we recorded in the morning or at night after my face gets blistered by Kevin O Hot Takes, Hot Takes, I need a nice cold Heineken. Heineken original logger is made a pure malt and their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken an all-sense. season all the time kind of beer. So pick up a pack or get it delivered, whatever your style and drink responsibly.

This episode is also supported by the FX original series Fargo. Family is complicated. Crime is organized with a brand new cast featuring Chris Rock and Jason Swartzman, FX's Emmy and Golden Globe winning series from the creator Noah Hawley returns with an all-new installment that explores the complexities of immigration, assimilation, power, and what it means to pursue the American dream. Set in 1950s, Kansas City, the new installment of Fargo tells the original tale of two criminal syndicates that control an alternate economy of exploitation, corruption, and drugs striking

and unusual peace. To cement their truce, the heads of the Black Crime family and Italian mafia agree to a unique gesture of good faith, the trading of their youngest sons. But will the agreement last as the tension between the two warring families escalates? Fargo premieres with back-to-back episode, September 27th at 9 p.m. on FX and streams next day FX on Hulu. And now back to the best match. All right, Kemp, so you've already put the Miami Heat in the finals.

You're done? You're done with Jason Tatum and the Celtics? You don't think they could come back? I think Celtics take one. I think they'd take one. Like we talked about earlier, with Denver taking one. You don't think they can win three in a row. I don't think you can win three in a row against the heat.

I would be shocked if the heat dropped three in a row. I mean, crazier things have happened, man. I mean, we just thought never do it twice. So you never know. Like, you can't say no here.

But with the way Miami defends and with the way they bring effort every single night of the floor. I mean, that first half, it felt like Boston was asleep. Mm-hmm. You know, they missed some opportunities there with Miami. The Tatum thing was just strange.

It was very odd. Because, you know, he totally deserved that video that you put out. Yeah. The timing of that was just unbelievable. And then he comes out. He's like throwing the ball away.

He's 0 of 6. It was just, what has happened? What has happened? Is he watching Kevin O'Connor videos too much or something? But he, he came out and just was a shell of himself. He just looked like,

we haven't seen this guy. The entire ESPN halftime show was like, is he hurt? What's wrong? What's going on with Tim? him the whole half time show. And then he came out and scored 28 in the second half. Which was awesome.

It was awesome. But also, you know, the dud in the first half is one of the reasons why they weren't able to build a lead at a time where Miami wasn't really able to get anything going. Yeah. And you saw that game was still, I mean, look, it's hip-duck. This is possession by possession down the stretch. And it's just who's going to make the place. And Miami, come on. I mean.

Tyler Hill at 37 friggin' points. Yeah, he's, he's, uh, 37. I mean, that is one of those where you're not counting on that happening, right? I mean, when you have, you know, look, a 20, a 25, that would be exceptional, right? If you got that out of a guy like Tyler Hero, a 37 is extreme and obviously extreme. I couldn't believe when they, when they did the walkoff interview last night. and they said, you know, they were talking about how does it make you feel?

It's the most points scored by a rookie in a conference final since Magic Johnson. And I was like, what the hell? Bro, that is 40 years ago. 40. Nobody in 40 years. Think of all the amazing players that have come through the league. Nobody as a rookie has scored that many points at a conference finals. since magic friggin' Johnson, I was like, that is literally historic.

I mean, and like, it's not that he got a bunch of spot-up threes or, you know, layups and transition on a leak out. He was making superstar plays. Yes. Getting to the rim using hesitations, Euro steps, pull-ups off a dime at the free throw line, stepbacks from three-point land. I mean, it was a. remarkable, remarkable performance.

Kev, and somebody could probably go find this, but at the beginning of the playoffs we were talking about, I remember in the Utah series, we were talking about Donovan Mitchell and how much we liked him, but we didn't see him, you know, it would have been outlandish to think he's a guy that's scoring 50. And I said,

Kevin, this would be like if we look up in four years and Tyler Hero scoring 50 in the playoffs. And, I mean, he's not that far off. He's not that far. I mean, I don't know four years. It might not take him four years till he gets 50 in a playoff game. This guy, here's the, and this is going, I don't know if you've heard this, but this is going to stun you if it hasn't.

I think it's going to stun the listeners. Not only, because I think people say, this guy can score, man. Like, this guy is a fantastic scorer, and he can get to the basket, and he can knock down threes, and he can hit the stepbacks, and he's got the shift he moves. But he is so much more than a score because this is the shocking part. He is second on that team in rebounding and he is first in assists during this deal. I mean, that is unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Tyler Hero. So he ain't just scoring. He does everything and is doing it at this rate that is like, you know, first or second on the team in these other categories. which is not what you would ever expect for a guy, especially a perimeter player like him, who's not a point guard. So you wouldn't necessarily think he'd be high in assists. And certainly the rebounding thing is crazy.

He's another one of those players where you're like, how do 12 teams miss this guy? You know? And I miss. And I missed too. I had ranked in, I believe, the lower mid-20s in my rankings last year. And, you know, I look back at that and it's like, I look at my pluses and minuses that I had for him.

And it's like, I mean, spot on in terms of like the evaluation, but the ranking is so off. You're talking about a guy who's six foot six who could shoot off the dribble, create his own shot, shows playmaking skills reportedly like, you know, from all the feedback and until you get a hard worker. It's like, what was I thinking? What were these teams thinking? It's just these guys fall so much. here's the thing i'm glad you brought this up because i did a little research project during half time of the game tonight because i was thinking about this a lot so he fell in that range and there have been an inordinate amount of times over the last couple of years where we've said

that how did this many teams miss on the guy and so i went back and i looked and i charted the last 10 drafts and the reason this was especially fascinating to me beyond the hero correlation is you have said that you think that back half of the lottery is a sweet spot this year. This year, yes. So I went back and looked and I'm like, what if it's the sweet spot every year? And you go back and look. And so like two years ago, right, we have Shay Gilders Alexander, we have Michael Porter Jr. who looked like he looked like a player tonight.

You know, it is short about a minute. it could turn out. And then you had Jerome Robinson was probably a miss. And then you had the two bridges, Miles Bridges, McEl Bridges, right? So that was 10, these are picks 10 through 15, right? So three years ago, you had Collins, Monk, Conard, Donovan Mitchell, Bam out of bio.

The year before, Demontas Sabonis, has already been an All-Star in the league. The year before, Devin Booker, the year before. It was kind of a down year for the draft, 14. But it still had Zach Levine and T.J. Warren. Two guys that we'd say, how the hell do they drop, you know, compared to what they've done in the NBA? 2013.

C.J. McCollum, Stephen Adams. And then, of course, the 15th pick was Janus. 2012. That was kind of a down year in the draft, honestly. But, I mean, there's been guys that have had careers, Jeremy Lamb, Myers-Lennard, Austin Rivers, these kind of guys. 2011, Clay Thompson and the 15th pick,

Kauai Leonard. And then the 2010, Paul George. I mean, like, this isn't like just a couple of guys. These are best players on teams. And that's over the last 10 years, from Donovan Mitchell to Devin Booker,

to Janice, to Kauai, to Clay Thompson, to Paul, George, I mean, that's insane. It makes you realize that obviously the draft is A, in an exact science. It is not hard to do. But B, these NBA front offices don't know how to do this any more than any of us do. I mean, it really is outrageous, though, to think.

Those are a who's who of the NBA. Clearly with Janus and Kauai. For sure. Even if you take them out of it. even if you take them out of it. And now you look again, and we got a kid that scores 37 last night, who everybody's like, geez, if you did a redraft, he may go in the top three or four, you know, which is true.

You probably would go into time. I mean, it's so easy to look back at hindsight, but I look back and it's like, what was I thinking? I thought this even during the season, forget about what we're seeing. This is like a new year. It just is. He's gotten better for where he was in March. He has improved as a ball handler.

that's tighter than it was before. He's making tougher shots off the dribble. He looks like a more dynamic overall shooter. But what he was from October to March, even then, it's like, what was I thinking? Yeah. How then where I was. I'm sure a lot of,

I know a lot of people in the league that I've talked to had him ranked around where I did. You know, he didn't fall that far, but you know what's so crazy, Kev, is you look and you see with, with him, the heat have been a team that over the years have punted on picks.

Like I think you would say they have valued the draft less than other teams. They figure they'll find, they can find players, right? And yet over the course of the last three years, you watch last night, three of their guys in their top seven rotation are bam out of bio, who they took, what, 14th or something like that in the draft, an undrafted free agent the next year in Duncan Robinson and Tyler Hero, who they took 13. I mean, that is unbelievable. That is not, when you think about like, oh, you were, you think of like Kevin Durant, Russell,

Westbrook, and Jeff Green. Like you got like three top five picks. And so, yeah, this is going to develop into something. But when you can get top seven rotation guys on an awesome team in a conference final that you got as the 13th pick, the 14th pick and an undrafted player, like it speaks to their insane player development, but also their ability to nail that pick. Because that's just like if you just, if you got that once in three years, if you got, if those were your picks, if I told you, One year you're going to have 13, one year you're going to have 14, one year you're going to get an undrafted free agent. You would hope that you get a rotation player, hopefully two out of that. You know, they got three in their top seven, which is crazy.

And, you know, heat culture, people talk about, you know, from top down to the organization, Pat Riley and all that, you know, that's a real thing. But part of heat culture is finding people, you know, who have that mindset. and bringing them into your organization. Right. That's what they've done in the draft with finding people who naturally work hard, who would work hard no matter what their environment is, no matter what their situation is with teammates, veterans, you know, coaches, whatever. And they're bringing them into a situation that matches their personality.

Oh, yeah. And it's fostering this great player development from everybody on the entire team. I mean, we're seeing it right now in the play. playoffs from Bam Atabio. He is showing more on the offensive end with some of the mid-range shots that he's hitting than he had to over the course of the season. There's more to his game that is going to get developed as they invest in him and he invest in himself over the years.

This team is only going to get better than being one win away from the finals. It's insane. Their team, their culture, their organization, it does deserve an amount of credit. Of course. To the point where you know. this could have gone a totally different way. Like, I look at it and I watch last night, and I know this is going to sting a little bit because you love him so much.

But that is exactly what Devin Booker could be doing. You know that as well as I do. The guys, it's a wasted six years that he's spent right now. He's never even played in a playoff game yet, right? And it's just by virtue. No, it's just by virtue. He landed there. Look, I'm not as big a Booker fan as you are, but I,

I also understand that Tyler Hero, if that's Devin Booker that gets to go to Miami or San Antonio or Indiana or some of the Utah, some of these other places that these other guys have succeeded, like the ones that have gone, I don't think that there is all those guys that I listed off outside of Booker, every one of them has gone to a great situation for them to maximize. their potential, right? They haven't played for a million coaches. They haven't turned over a million front offices. And so maybe it's a different story for, you know, Donovan Mitchell or Bam out of bio or Clay Thompson or Janice or Kauai or whoever, right? So, I mean, it is opportunity and fit. We talk about all the time. But, you know, it's just, I don't think that there's a bunch of other guys that could be scoring 37 in a conference.

finals. So you got to give Tyler Hero credit for that. But he's also in a great spot. No doubt about it. Just one quick note on Booker. There's like the pros and cons of the situation he was in the pros being that he was on a bad team. He was empowered to do things that he wasn't asked to do in college, you know, with the ball on his hands, pick and roll. And he's gotten so much better at that over the years, especially as a passer and a finisher and all that. He was given the opportunity that he wouldn't have been on a good team. But the con is, is that, like, you don't have any of that continuity. You're not playing winning basketball.

You're not getting those reps and the experience against the best opponents in the league, whether it's in the playoffs or even in a, quote, unquote, big regular season game, you know, where they're giving it all, not just, oh, we're going to Phoenix, you know? That's right. And with Booker, that's also what makes his development so amazing, is that he did do that with so many coaches and so many changing pieces around him. But it just means he was immensely talented and he can overcome that because a lot of these guys. It might have happened anywhere. It might have happened anywhere.

Maybe how about all these other names though? And that's when you, that's when you do the, I wonder how much different it would be, right? Let's say Tyler Hero was off the board and they have to take somebody different. Now, he's probably not succeeding in that manner. But with these other guys that we have talked about and where they got drafted, whether it was, you know, guys that we have liked in the past, like a Denzel Valentine or a Zach Levine or T.J. Warren, who just came into his own on a big stage, right, getting to play in the playoffs and obviously had a real moment there in the bubble. C.J. McCollum landed in a perfect spot. But, I mean, there's a bunch of guys that, geez, what if it would have been a little bit different? What if they would have gone to one of these franchises that, you know, was really set up, invested in them, same front office, same coach for a while? let's get to the actual

obviously we went off on a tangent about the hero thing because it's so fascinating what about Boston what has disappointed you the most about them finding themselves in this situation they got to be better against the zone

simple as that they had a long time off got to be better against the zone yeah they had a long time off to prepare for Wednesday's game and no different really they peggie they're got some open looks to be fair and they did well against it in the fourth quarter but overall the

full duration of the game the full duration of the series Celtics going to be better against the zone and they would probably be up in the series if they had done their job from the start it really feels like they should have been able to install something that is we run this play against that and we get a bucket right and we're going to get them out of this zone quick we know exactly what we're going to do when they go into this to punish them. And it didn't feel like they have this. I think they have like a theory of what they want to do rather than the exact thing they want to do to attack this. That's still how it felt.

It still didn't feel decisive, right? It still felt like they were thinking about what they need to do to defeat this rather than just going in, oh, you want to go and, oh, you want to go and to his own, we're ready for this now. You're dead. Like, it never felt that way. It feels like they're constantly thinking. It feels like they're taking the shots that Miami wants them to take and that they're allowing them to take sometimes. So even though it's open, Miami might be okay with it. And, you know, look, with Stevens, he's a tremendous coach, I think. He's a top level level below Spolstra, Steeves, Nurse, some of those guys. I have a whole. I have a hard time, you know, rationalizing these two thoughts in my mind. Like Stevens is a great coach and

they're not unable to just pick apart the zone defense here. You know, Miami deserves immense credit here too. They are defending on a string. But it feels like Boston should be able to do so much more than score 0.9 points per possession, which is what they're doing in the series according to synergy against that heat zone defense. And I wonder how much of that is players' inability to adapt to facing the zone. Think about how infrequently a lot of these guys throughout their young lives playing basketball have faced zone. One year in college basketball, depending on what you played in AAU or high school,

everybody's experience is different, but it's probably at the least it's been a long time since they've seen zone, or it's the first time they're ever seeing great zone defense. So I have a hard time, you know, pointing the finger at any one person. in here like Stevens or the players when there's so many variables that play here. The bottom line, though, is they got to get this fixed to have any chance, any chance at coming back from down 3-1. Well, I mean, look, we argued about this before the series started and I said, outside of that Oklahoma City team, which had crazy, crazy talent, like young teams led by young

players are just typically not in the NBA finals. And that may be what befell's Denver, too. you know, led by a 24 and a 22 year old, that typically you are, you're, you're, you've got a lot of guys that are veteran guys. Now, that is not to say that young players can't contribute like you saw Tyler

Hero do last night. But down the stretch, you see, there's just a confidence that comes with veteran teams that is different, you know, and then there's, there's a lot less, you know,

that stuff you talk about where you're thinking, about stuff, it feels like there's a lot less thinking and a lot more just playing, right, when it comes down. And I even think last night, you know, this was not a small thing to me. What was it, like 10 seconds left or maybe it was less than that? And Boston took like an extra, I mean, they let, they let three seconds burn off the clock before they ever fouled. They would add more time there at the end of that game in order to get another shot off. I mean, it was only a three point margin, right? And they would have had more time. But it's just sometimes young players, they're not, the level of awareness is just not the same, especially when you're led by, you're counting on them.

Because as much as Kemba's good and Gordon Award's good, we know. That's a Jalen Tatum show. And I swear, Jalen Brown, I'm going to say this for it. That Joker has to be shooting like a hundred percent on we are down by six. threes. You know what I'm saying? Like, they are down by five. I swear to God, the guy hits a three every time or they're down by six. He's got to be 100%. Like the game is just about to be over. It's just out of range. And that dude hits a three. Like every time he makes the shot. And you're like, oh, this game ain't over yet. Like, it's over and over again throughout these playoffs. He hits those

threes. Every time I think the game's over, Jalen Brown hits a three. It's happened so many times it's crazy. Yeah. With Jalen, it feels like he's definitely hitting 100% of those. And with Boston, this is what's so frustrating about them.

They go from end of games, like this is a team that is giving 100% effort, grinding on defense, you know, playing decisive offense, hitting, you know, clutch shots, a lot of time at the end the games. And then other times, it feels like they're just not totally plugged in.

In that first half, we saw that. We've seen that so many other times throughout the playoffs. Miami's a team. That switch has always flipped on. With Boston, it feels like sometimes it dims a little bit. I, and their star power, especially with Tatum, and what he's going to look like in two, three, four years is going to be a lot different. But we talked about it.

They clearly lose the depth war when it comes. to and Folstra tightened it up even last night. Like they didn't have to play a ton of guys in that game. But he tried Solomon Hill in the first half and then didn't use him in the second half only went with seven guys. Right. Seven guys and then Hill for four minutes. Yes.

And then you've got, I mean, and Wanamaker was not, I mean, is not a nothing, right? I mean, he's still, he's still been okay. But, I mean, they're just, they're short on guys once they get past their top five guys. and I know that they were installed as the favorite, even if it was a slight favorite. But I'm not watching this thinking, Boston's blowing this, Boston should be winning this series.

I'm not. Are you watching this thinking Boston should be winning this series? I mean, I really think that Miami is playing better team basketball. I mean, it should probably be two, too. These games are so close, and then the veteran team is taking care of business. That's right.

For sure. I mean, I think with Boston going into this next game, obviously have to be better at the zone that goes without saying. But in terms of the minutes aspect, you mentioned Smolstra trimming his rotation. If I'm Brad Stevens here, I think it's time to trim. It's time to trim. Go with seven. No want to make her anymore. And stop messing around with O'Dillay, Grant Williams, and pick one big depending on your preference.

Maybe it ends up being eight guys because you use a different big for different situations. But it should, you know, strictly be really, you know, six plus. one depending on the situation. And I feel, Watermakers's been solid. He's not a zero, like you said. But now is the time where those minutes in which Warner Makers handling the ball,

you want Tatum handling the ball. You want Brown handling the ball. You want Kamba handling the ball. Up their minutes some more and get the ball into the hands of your best players for as many possessions as possible. It's really the only way you're going to come back in the series. I would be stunned.

And I say this is someone who really loves that Miami team, but I would be stunned if there is not a game six. And I would not be, I would not be surprised if there was a game seven, honestly. I really want to hear. I really want to hear. This is very, very close.

These teams, this is a great, great matchup. I don't think, I know that the 3-1 lead is a dominating lead, but I do not think it is an indicative of, like I thought Miami, I thought that they could have played five more games against Milwaukee, and they'd have won four of them. Like, I just thought that they had their number and that they, that was not to me, that was not competitive in the same sense that this is, where I look at these games and go, boy, that could have gone the other way. Like, this could be, and I feel that way. And so, again, backs against the wall, I'd be surprised if Boston doesn't have a grand slam effort for game six.

And then you get through a game six. You probably got another close game. You never know. You never know. You never know. And like you said to your point of what this being a close series, through the four games so far, Miami has 441 points.

Boston has 441 points. Oh, wow. Tied. Yeah. So it's not necessarily fair to look at, oh, they're handling them because they're up three. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, Boston, I feel like they should be tied two to two.

right now. That game one was the game that felt like it really slipped from them going to overtime in that game one. That felt like not as much game too, but game one, they should have taken that game. Well, and the difference between, you know, three to one and two to two is Jason Tatum about to Tomahawk on Bam out of bio and he blocks it instead. Exactly. Right? Exactly. I mean, sometimes it can come down to one play. And honestly, the difference between three to one and two to two is Anthony Davis hitting a friggin huge three. Exactly. Right.

So sometimes it's one play. And so you can't get too bent out of shape and think about how much needs to change with these teams. It's frankly going to come down to it. When the teams are this good, it's going to come down to a player or two. And you either make it or you don't, but that doesn't, that doesn't have to change the grand narrative all that much. Absolutely. And that's why, you know, as much as it's a coach's

cliche. It really is a one game at a time attitude. Yeah. You know, if you're Denver, you know, in your series against Utah and then against the Clippers, you're feeling like you had opportunities. You just have to think one game in a time. And that's it. You can't win all three games in one night. And for the Celtics and for the Nuggets now, both being down three to one, it wouldn't

shock me if we get a seven and either of them. I mean, I think I'd be a little bit more surprised with that Lakers series, but with the problems that we already hit. LeBron in AD, maybe a little fatigued 80's ankle, maybe he says he feels fine. We'll see how he feels in two days. You never know.

But with Boston, it is sometimes unfortunate plays or great plays that the opponent makes, but there's tweaks around the edges that oftentimes win a series. And whether it's minutes or better attacking of the zone or Tatum not having a stinker of a first

half or smart, maybe making you know, a couple more passes and taking a fewer shots, that's what wins you a game and thus a series. It's what happens around the edges. Did we hear anything about Bam out of bio? I mean, it was a stinger? I believe he's going to play, but I don't know if we got any actual.

I mean, his arm was immobile at the end of that game. He didn't even like try on like the jump ball. It looked like it was just hanging from his side. I don't know, maybe he got a stinger or something, but, and obviously they are very protective. of any kind of news, and especially if Bam out of bio was hampered. It's not like we would know about it.

Here's what Spolster said today. He's icing his body right now. That's where we are. He'll be ready to go. It's a little bit of everything. This is a physical series. He'll be ready to go. A lot of ice, according to Spolster.

For what they're doing, no X-ray, no MRI, no update at all. So he must be fine, or they're just saying, stop asking about it. Which they did a pretty good job. And they, look, they achieved that. They got everybody to stop asking about it. Absolutely. And then they're going to come out and they're going to say he's got a broken

arm or something. Played through it. Played through it, you know. We're going to take one more quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about Billy Donovan getting that Bulls job and Kevin's report on Mike DeAntony. And if we're going to see him again on a sideline very soon. We'll do that after these words.

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All right, Kev, so we do have to mention this before we get out of here. Billy Donovan got the Bulls job. When you saw that come across the wire, what was the first thing you thought about? I'm excited to see him have a moldable team. Finally, for the first time in the NBA, obviously, you never want to not have Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant on your team when you're with Oklahoma City or never want to not have Westbrook and Paul George. But fact is, is that with all of those star players and even this year with the personnel

you had, he wasn't able to do what we saw him do for years at Florida with that motion offense. That was Chris Paul's team. That was Chris Paul's team. For sure. And what he did at Florida and what he has always wanted to do is have a lot of ball movement, a lot of cutting. Like what we talked about we want to see from the Lakers on fourth quarters is movement. That's what his Florida teams did. that's what he did over is, I believe, 15 to almost 20 year college coach and career

with two national championships to great success. So with Chicago with a bunch of guards, you know, some of them have played in different types of offenses with different styles, with Biggs with Carter and Markinen, who can handle the ball and pass a little bit. This feels like an opportunity for him to install the type of offense that he's long wanted to. And so I look forward to seeing how his team performs and how some of these impressive young players develop within that system.

I think it could be good for the youth on that team. They are not without talent. No, they're not. They should have been better this year, and that was the first thing that ran through my mind. Billy Donovan, whatever anybody wants to say about X's and O's, coaching, whatever your opinion is on him, the guy is a cool guy. Everybody likes Billy Donovan.

The players like Billy Donovan, the management likes Billy Donovan, the media likes Billy Donovan. He's just an agreeable, like he's cool and he's also somebody that everybody, he's charming guy and people like him. And I thought, players like him a lot too. A lot of players celebrated the hiring. He's going to walk in that locker room after Jim Boylan and they're going to think, oh my God, this is the greatest thing that has, he really is.

He is a players coach, right? And these guys. And you think about that he hadn't had the easiest personalities. to deal with. You know what I mean? Like, yes, you have to, there is, you have to do some real,

there's some psychological warfare that goes on, obviously in retrospect, as we know with Durant leaving after the, you know, Durant Westbrook, that run.

And then he brings in Paul George. And he's got Westbrook and he's got Paul George. And then he's got Chris Paul, who is, I mean, a big person. personality, big personality in Chris Paul.

And in order to, you know, he has managed stars very well to where they've come away liking him. Yeah. You know what I mean? Which is not the easiest thing to pull off. Usually there ends up being some head budding, especially if you fell short. But I bet, I bet that Bulls team will love that guy. I don't know. Look, I don't think it's the greatest job in the world.

I don't know how easy it'll be to win. in retrospect now, not knowing much about the guy they hired from Denver, I know this. Like, if, if,

if, if, if that guy is pretty responsible along with Tim Conley for putting together that Denver roster, then he is, he is responsible for sure. Yeah,

Arturis, uh, our tourist, uh, Tarcinovis. Yeah. So, look,

he, he was, he played internationally, one of the greatest international players ever. And think about Denver's success. I know drafting international talent. It's partially also due to Tim Conley, who was an international scout prior to

to the position he now has running Denver's front office. But those two guys working in tandem together have deep connections there to get the right intel on guys. There are some teams who didn't draft Yokic because of the weight problems because of lack of conditioning and concerns about that. There are some teams who had intel on Yonqch. They're like, yeah, he's a little chubby,

but he works his ass off. Here are some real example. for you to understand who he is. And that's where Carsonovas with Chicago hiring Billy Donovan, a guy he, at least as far as I understand, had no prior relationship shows that he really stood out to him as the right candidate for the job because he could have hired Wes Unsell Jr. Sure. A Denver assistant coach.

And he ended up choosing Billy Donovan, obviously, to correct myself earlier, Donovan I've been coached 21 years in college, not 15 to 20. And, you know, it's just going to be interesting to see what happens with Chicago here. They've changed the front office. They've changed the coaching staff. And what's probably next is changes to the roster. Oh, of course it will because it doesn't fit. I mean, I saw them, you know.

Yeah, they get good players, but the mix isn't right. No, no, the mix isn't right. I mean, because you've got to choose between Zach Levine and Kobe White. And you've got to choose. Why is that? I just don't think that that's never going to be your back court. You know what I mean? And I view both of them as starting level players in the NBA.

And so I don't think that in the absence of unless you're going to just decide, hey, Kobe White's going to be a bench guy for me. You know, I love Wendell Carter. We both did coming out of the draft. Markan is now a project because he was so good. out of the box. It was so terrible last year. But I mean, they've got some,

they've got some players and they've got some pieces. Certainly. You just got to choose which ones you want to build around. And there's something there for sure. No doubt about it. And it's going to be exciting if you're a Bulls fan thinking about, oh yeah, finally. I bet it's Levine.

I bet it's Levine they move off of. That's interesting. I think you could probably get the most for him, don't you? You could definitely get the most for him for sure. And by the way, I asked, but I agree with you that I think long term, it's inevitable that you're going to have to trade one of those guys to get the right piece. And whoever it ends up being probably will have a lot to do with what happens this coming season.

How does Zach Levine get better on defense under Billy Donovan? This is playmaking improved to the point where it's like, oh, he's more than just a score? Wow. I mean, because he can pass a little bit, but he's not a great passer. And with White, does he make further development? an inefficient score, both in college and in this first year in the NBA, what changes there for him? And how do they adapt in the system that Donovan is going to try to install

and that the front office intends to build? So we'll see after this coming season, but it's exciting to see what the Bulls are going to be. His name was bandied about, you know, as were a million names that have been with the Philly job. Yeah. You mentioned Mike D. Tony. And I just, I've, I've, I've always thought that it's going to, it's either going to be him or Ty Lou that gets that New Orleans job simply because the Griffin connection.

Obviously, De Antony was connected to Griffin in Phoenix during that seven seconds or less era. Tai Liu connected to him from the Cleveland era. But what is this, Mike Deand, I can't imagine a worse fit than Mike D. Antony with Ben Simmons and Joelle Embed. Yeah, so I reported Tuesday or Wednesday that rumblings of Mike Dantonie going to the Sixers have gotten louder. I mean, it had previously been reported by somebody, I believe, Wojj, was probably Woj and, you know, Paines and Shams and everybody Stein and everybody. That there's interest there between Dan Tony and the Sixers. But it does seem like this week, now that we have the second round of interviews with Lou, with Danone, and with Billy Donovan, who, of course, is going to Chicago, that things are getting. louder that it could be Dan Tony. Is it getting louder because, you know, his agent, Warren Ligary is leaking things out to try to increase leverage to get more money from New Orleans or to get

more money from another team like Indiana. It's been quiet with the Pacers recently, if you haven't noticed. I haven't heard a lot about that since it first came out weeks ago. Is it that? Will there be a surprise team that pops up out of nowhere? Does New Orleans suddenly, boom, one day it's Dan Tony hired. We'll see. I'm not reporting that he's going to Philly, but it's gotten louder this week, which is really interesting, considering as you just said, Chris, what a weird fit. Dan Tony, the guy, seven seconds for seven seconds or less sons with Houston Rockets? Oh, my goodness. What was it? Like on Hoops Hyper one of those, it was like, the thought is that he, that, you know, that James Hardin might, could follow him there, right? And like, maybe an M-B for Hardin.

deal could take place. And I was like, what in the heck is going on? Like what? If you wanted to, if you want to be James Hardens coach, why didn't he just try to keep his job in Houston? You know, I mean? Like, I didn't, I didn't really know what was going up. But yeah, Simmons had Embed with my De Antony. Like, that does not feel that does not feel like a fit. On paper, great for Ben Simmons. You have a guy who coached the seven seconds or less sons who coached James Hardin and the Houston Rockets with their unorthodox system that nobody's ever done in league history. But for Joel M. Bede, it's going to be really odd here, considering Dan Tony hasn't, you know, played the style with his good teams, that being the Sons and the Rockets. He's coached other teams, the Lakers and the Knicks.

They were not good. I'm talking about only two teams, sons and rockets, the teams he's had success with. Hey, you want to know what's crazy? It just what makes me wonder. You know what's crazy? And we've joked about this a million times. Like that every job that's come open for the last decade has been attached to Jeff Van Gundy. Like Jeff Van Gundy's got the best PR ever.

Every job that comes open, it's like Jeff Van Gundy, maybe Jeff Van Gundy. Like, if Philly hired Jeff Van Gundy, that is the one where I'd be like, you know what? That actually makes sense. to me. Like, I think, like, I, like, that feels like he, it feels, it feels Philly. It feels like, you know, it's not, you know, with, if they're assuming they're keeping their pieces, it's, if you have Ben Simmons and you have Joella Bede and you have Tobias Harris, uh, and then who knows what you could do with Horford. It's, you're not playing, not a lot. You're not playing modern. Like you're never going to be modern offense, spread it out, shoot a time.

Like, you're just not. That's not what you're best at and you shouldn't. And so almost like the old school coach to me actually is the one time it really does make sense. Because there's a limit to how much you can propel to the future given your personnel. And he coached the team with Yao Ming and Tracy McGready. Like, I mean, I'm just saying if there was like one of those names. of like the what we think of as the old school guys, I think Philly would actually be the fit for somebody like that

rather than, you know, the Kenny Atkinsons and the, you know, the fly up and down the court, you know, the Darwin hams of the world, the guys that are up and coming and are going to play this new NBA style. To your point, what if the hiring isn't as much about the 2021 season as it is about the next five years? and maybe over the next five years, you know at some point you're going to have to split this up. Internally, you have a strong sense

that that's a path you're going to go down. And maybe you think the guy you're going to choose is Ben Simmons. You might know that if you're at the Sixers internally. And that would probably inform the coach that you want to hire that can best maximize Ben Simmons. And that's what I was getting at earlier when I said, I kind of wonder if maybe that's the mindset there. Ben Simmons would average 27, 18, and 16 playing for, if you got rid of M.B.

Did he, it was Mike D'Antone? The numbers Ben Simmons would put up playing for Dantone and running the show there would be insanity. I'm just, that's what I'm saying. Oh, God. Getting him going downhill all the time. But that would mean you're moving off M.B. I know. You're probably getting a hell of a hell of.

a lot for Joelle Embed, one of the best centers in basketball, maybe only worse than A.D. and Nicole Oakich. And Yonis, if you want to consider him a big, too. I mean, you get a lot for Embed from some teams that have draft picks or young players or veterans, even, that they're willing to shift for a big or a different guy. Think about it. I mean, it's a path that Philly could go down. And if you're a Sixers fan, like obviously you're super frustrated with everything that's happening and the way you just keep losing and the way those guys don't fit. But maybe if it's a Dan Tony type of hiring, it indicates future intentions. And it would hurt to lose a guy like Joe Ellie's awesome. I mean, I can't imagine what it's like being a young

kid rooting for a dude right now. I'm already barfing thinking about, I'm already barfing thinking about Andrew Wiggins, Draymond, Crean, and something else deal. Oh, my kid. No way. No, don't. What are you talking about? Elton Brand has been horrible. Like, there's no trade off the table. What makes you think that he's going to get maximum value for anything? I don't know. I'm just saying like offers would get thrown at you to a point that hopefully you're not just taking the first one. You know what I'm saying? I feel like you and I could handle the Embed negotiations.

You know what I'm saying? Hey, look, we could have handled the whole Sixers situation better than it's been. I mean, I promise you this. There's no way I'm giving $180 million to Tobias Harris. And I ain't given $100 million or whatever the hell it was to Al Horford. And they just done goofy thing after goofy-ass thing. Sometimes the hardest moves are the most important moves of franchise can make. And for Philly, I think it can work in some world with Embedon Simmons.

I don't think that's going to be Philly in time before it's too late for those two. Wow. They get to make a lot of changes. I mean, think about it. We were talking about Chris Paul. That's the idea I've been hammering some junior. I've been hammering it. But that's a 35-year-old point guard we're resorting to here, you know?

I just think, look, I think they effed that thing up where they effed it up with those stupid-ass signings. Kev, they had it. They had it with Jimmy Butler and JJ Reddick. They had it. They were a shot away. They had it. Like, it's not that hard. I know.

I mean, everybody can say, like, oh, it's hard to build around. It ain't hard. They just F the thing up. Like, like the next thing you know, you got friggin' shake Milton starting for you. You know, it's like,

what is happening? Like, you were right there. Like, all you got to do is... Four bounces away from advancing. And maybe you lose the next series, but you were right there.

Yeah, find you, find you some shooters. And find you some, you know, a perimeter guy that gives you everything he's got, you know, like a big time player.

And it's like, geez, this isn't, this isn't the hardest job. in the world. You've been handed these two amazing talents. You just, you built around them as badly as you could build

around them. Seriously. Last season, Brett Brown lost that locker room with Butler and Reddick and, you know, and Embed and Simmons that team. He lost the locker room. Go back in time. I wonder if Philly goes to Jimmy Butler and says, hey, we'll make a change of head coach.

You know, we want you to be part of this franchise. We feel like we can win with you. Let's do this. Let's make this happen. Let's get the right pieces here around you guys. You're right there. I wonder if he stays in that situation. Right now maybe Philly's on the Eastern Conference Finals

with Joella, with Joella, with Joel and Beed and Ben Simmons and Jimmy Butler and JJ Reddick with a chance to go to the finals. Maybe they're the team that's up 3-1 on Boston right now. Maybe they are. Oh, they were there. Totally plausible. Given the Eastern Conference Finals we're looking

at right now, it's totally plausible that they could have been right back there, especially with Kauai Gaon. Yeah. That's the only thing that stood in their way last year. They might have been there if it weren't for him. By the way, Philly is another team. This is why, before the season, I picked the Sixers to make the finals, which was dead wrong.

But they're another team, sort of like the heat that is built to give Janus and the Bucks problems. They have a bunch of guys that can throw at him on that roster. And, you know, they weren't in that, it weren't in position to actually beat that team. But with Philly, I still feel like if you're going to salvage this, it's probably Chris Paul. It's probably Chris Paul because he allows you to run high pick and roll with Ben Simmons. He allows you to run high pick and roll. He allows you to run pick and roll, period, which they haven't done a lot of for years.

They got to have that. Never mind the ISO scoring with his permanent creation ability. If I'm the Sixers and if I'm the Bucks, I'm going after Chris Paul. I agree with you. I can't believe we're going to agree again. but we'll end it. We'll end it on a hide, though. Thank you to producer Sasha as always,

and we will talk to everybody next week. Have a great weekend, everybody. Fantasy football is back, and you don't want your team to suck. My favorite fantasy football punishment I've ever heard is the last place guy had to spend 24 hours in a waffle house, and every waffle he ate was one hour off of his count. I want numbers. How many did he end up eating?

12 waffles and 12 hours. I'm Danny Haifitz. I'm Danny Kelly. And I'm Craig Horlebeck. We host the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on the Ringer Podcast Network. To avoid eating 12 waffles in a Waffle House, follow the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify.