The Ringer NBA Show - ‘The Last Dance’ and the Athlete As a Role Model | The Mismatch

Episode Date: May 5, 2020

We run through some league news, including the discussions about whether Kevin Durant would be ready to come back by the time the NBA is ready to ramp up again (1:41). Then we go deeper into episodes 5-6 of ‘The Last Dance,’ including the concept of the “role model” athlete (30:00). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen and it's a charitable donation. Once again, that's the ringer.com slash WCK. Now time for the mismatch. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show.

I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomberma, A.K. Kevin O'Bondy, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O' controversy, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin Berno. How's it going? All right. We've got a lot of stuff to get to. two amazing episodes of the last dance have been on since we last spoke.

We do have some NBA news to get to. But I do want to start by telling you last week, I mentioned that many years ago I had Bill Russell on my local show and I had asked him a series of questions about, you know, kind of personal questions. And one of them was I wanted to find out about what he liked entertainment-wise. And I asked him what his story. favorite movie was and the answer shocked me. I went and I found the archive of this. It was actually 2009. This is 11 years ago. 11 years ago. And I'm so glad to know that Bill Russell still,

you know, he's still doing well. You can still see him out and around at NBA games. Was this a cassette tape? Did you have to? It was actually, it was actually a CD. So what we did was. Yeah, well, we archived everything as MP3 files. I mean, I have boxes and boxes of shows, interviews, etc., that we did over the years because I always wanted to keep all of my archives. And so I went back through and my producer, John Rozier, had labeled them all alphabetically, unbelievably. You know what I mean?

So going back through it was very, very easy. I just had to look for his name. And so I was able to find it. And it was funny to listen back to. The reason he was on, there was a book that had come out called Red and Me. And it was Bill Russell's book about him and Red Our Back. And it was called Red and Me, my coach, my lifelong friend. And I would encourage anybody, if you're a basketball fan, to read that book.

It is a short read and it is tremendous, absolutely tremendous, about two of the giants for sure in. in NBA history. But then at the very end of the interview, I asked him a series of personal questions, and I asked him what his favorite movie was, and that's when I got the response that surprised me. Okay. All right.

What's your favorite movie? Probably one of the Star Trek movies. Star Trek? Yeah, I'm a, I'm a Trekkie. Oh, what? Yeah. Bill Russell is a Trekkie? Oh, yeah.

Now, this is something I did not expect. All right. Now, hey, there, There is. There is the proof that he told me that he was a Treki. Now, I cut it off, but I kept on listening to it to find out his other, you know, favorite things. And when I asked him about music, his answer was a Chris Christopherson Johnny Cash song, Sunday morning coming down. He loved that song. And then he mentioned another song. And he said, and you probably don't know the guy. name's Grady Tate. And the name of the song is Windmills of My Mind or the Windmills of Your Mind. That was the name of it.

And so I wrote down some with the other things that he had mentioned as his favorite things. He also mentioned, I asked him about his favorite athlete and he said when he was in high school, he met George Mican,

who was one of the great NBA players ever. And he said, and he was the nicest man I had met outside of my family. And you think about this, you know, Kev, and the history of the NBA and how much sometimes those interactions can make a huge difference. And here it is Bill Russell explaining, you know, there's going to be a kid one day that says, I just saw the other night, right, where you saw Clay Thompson was talking about

being in the locker room meeting Michael Jordan when he was a kid. You know, obviously his father played in the NBA. But you have these moments, but that's been going on for that long to where Bill Russell was saying when he was in high school, he got a chance to meet George Miken. And he was so nice to him. He was the nicest man he had met outside of his family. And so, like, look, I mean, we've talked a lot about being nice to people because you never know. But if there's ever a great story about that, there it is with Bill Russell saying he ran into the best player in the NBA when he was a kid. imagine that.

It's all generational, right? Right? You have to do as much as you can in your time on this earth and try to pass on the good lessons that you've learned for Bill Russell. He's done that throughout his life like George Mikan, put made a positive impact on him. And the players Russell impacted have done that with the rest of the world. And, you know, that's what really made watching the last dance so impactful, right?

with Michael Jordan really taking Kobe under his wing and obviously knowing now Kobe was just starting to begin to do the same with a lot of young players in today's league. Before we get into all of our thoughts from the last dance, I do want to cover a couple of things today. This is unsurprising that ownership support is growing for the idea that next season, and we still don't know how or when, you'd be able to finish this season if you are for the,

NBA, but that it would delay the start until December. And the big thing about this is what I think you and I have both wondered aloud is, yes, this is happening because of the coronavirus pandemic, but are we going to find that a December start is actually better for the MBA anyway, for interest and for everything else, and that it just carries on later into the summer rather than starting when college football and the NFL are going, when college basketball starts up to, you kind of have a lot more months of the sporting calendar virtually to yourself, certainly on a nightly basis outside of regular season baseball. And so I think it's no surprise that you would start the season a little bit later, but could that be something? that sticks, is it not just going to be because of the coronavirus pandemic, but rather the future of the sport is a calendar that starts in December? You and I have hit this a couple times, and I feel

exactly the same now as an event in that there is risk if the NBA were to do this, but ultimately, I think the upside is there for greater numbers and viewership from the youth. I think some of the concerns about people being on vacation during the playoffs is a bit overblown. Though I would be curious to see the NBA's numbers in terms of demographics and how that could affect viewership in those months. I just think straight up, man. The fact is, is there's nothing to watch that like primetime television in July and and August and September until the NFL starts in September.

So if the NBA can fill that void, especially in August, do you? The upside there is pretty significant long term for the NBA. And to me, this was something that they should pursue before coronavirus became what it is today. And considering the circumstances of what's happening now, it makes even more sense because next season, it's possible people won't be able to be in the crowd at arenas until March or April, if that. And so the later you start, the greater the chances that you're actually going to be able to be able to. to have fans in arenas again. So there's short-term incentive for the league this coming season, but there's also long-term upside as well.

We know that the Board of Governors voted on Friday that they would postpone two different events that would have taken place in May, the draft lottery and the combine. They haven't voted on the draft, but everybody knows that's going to move too, especially if you've already moved these things. So how do you think that plays out?

And especially as somebody that puts together a draft guide, I mean, how different? I mean, what the hell are we doing here? It's so hard, right? Like there's in terms of the evaluation, you're kind of going off of the tapes. I know we just kind of went through this with the NFL draft, but we got to remember, you know, the senior ball took place and the combine, for that matter, took place. You know, yes, there were guys without their pro days. and their individual pro days, but there was a lot of the prep that had already taken place for the NFL. That is not so with the NBA. And so it's very hard to figure out that's one of the

ones that's very difficult to figure out how that could even happen. Again, it's similar to the schedule. The longer you wait, the greater the chance is that you're going to be able to get a player in the gym for a workout in some social distance, you know, situation where, there's limited people inside. You wouldn't have a traditional pro day where you have GMs and executives and scouts from all over the country in that one gym for a workout of multiple players. So it won't happen like that. But the fact is that the Combine and the draft lottery are pushed to an undefinent date.

And as I've reported before, the draft will be pushed. It's just a matter of to win. It would be a shocker, a major shock if the draft. draft date was kept at June 25th, which it currently still is, but the league would wait until next month to make that change, even if games are canceled, which is a possibility. Okay, how about this, Kevin? Even if games are canceled, the draft is going to get pushed at least a week or two or three. Is there any chance that there is a draft without the season being completed?

You know what I'm saying? Are we sitting there wait? We have to wait for the season to end. So theoretically, we're talking September, October before an NBA draft takes place. And like, it wouldn't be that case if draft night was just about the draft. It's not. Draft night is one of the biggest trade nights of the NBA calendar. Right. Right? And you don't know, you don't know what's draft decisions you would make until you're allowed to trade.

You don't know what draft decisions you would make until you know what the salary cap's going to look like. you don't know what the salary cap's going to look like until games are played until the season's over until you have an idea of what revenue could look like next season there's just so many variables in the air in the air that are holding up the draft and ultimately it's just not going to happen until after we know if games are going to be played or not and to your point chris initially the fact is this next season could start in December but maybe not it might not start until january that's a possibility too. Right. With a number of, it's possible.

Like, it might be late January. And the other thing that's crazy is these kids stop playing basketball in March, right? If we, if we, just extrapolated out, we say,

okay, they will end up finishing a season some way, somehow, but it might not end until the beginning of September. Therefore, maybe you get a three or four weeks until you have the draft. I mean, it could be late September,

early October. I mean, you're talking. For a draft you play, right? And again, you're talking about five months from now, Kevin, and they haven't played basketball since March. You know what I mean? Like, that's a long time for a bunch of draft picks. It's different if you've got a gig and you're in the NBA.

But now all of a sudden you are attempting to impress, you know, prospective GMs and the timing of it all and the shape that you are in is just, there's just no way. And on the other hand, it could be to the advantage of some kids, right? Like we talked about Janice Anta Ticumpo, I posted that poster where he grew like five inches in between the draft and when the season started. And so, who knows? It's probably not great for guys that are already a little bit older, you know, because now all of a sudden you could be 22 by draft day or something like that. But most importantly, it's just the basketball, not playing in a basketball. basketball game since, you know, typically these kids, they're playing through in many cases, March and April. Then they get drafted, and then they're in Summer League by July after a short

amount of time off. And they're working out through the draft, which is really at the end of June. And then they go into Summer League, and then they have a little time off before training camp starts. I mean, they've never had, I mean, none of these guys have had what could be a 60. to eight-month break from playing competitive basketball. It's crazy. Yeah, I mean, but you know, if you need to adapt, like the situation is what it is. And so for, for players, whether you have a gym nearby that you're able to go to or not to work in your game,

we all have to adapt. And for players, I think the greatest challenge might be, you know, from when the college season ends to when you actually sign your contract and you're getting paid, there's a there's going to be an even longer window than usual for a lot of guys that come from backgrounds where their families don't make a lot of money and that's even more challenging right now where that that's that first big paycheck that's saving you and saving your family and giving them comfort and a cushion to fall on is going to have to wait even longer and and there's still no guarantee that it'll come because some of these guys who are entering the draft

they're gambling here and there's no guarantee. that they get picked for these late second round picks or guys that have hopes of being a first round pick but then end up going undrafted and then you're looking at the overseas market. There's a lot of uncertainty for these guys for even a longer duration of time now. And the fact is, is for the NBA, there's, there is a deadline. It's not set. But I remember it was reported before about how, you know, Labor Day was a big day, you know, for the NBA to crown a champion.

and I'm not so sure that's true anymore. For the NBA, it's really about at this point, for next season, getting fans into arenas and the longer you wait, the greater the chance that can actually happen. But also for this current season, it's also possible the longer you wait, the better the timing it is to actually complete the season.

And maybe that happens in mid-August, maybe that happens in late August, but maybe it also doesn't happen until mid to late September. And that affects everybody. It affects draft prospects. It affects the current guys. And it's going to have a ripple effect moving forward with next season.

And for the NBA, if games do return and they're going to sure they're sure as hell going to try everything they can to get games back, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear anything of substance. I mean, we're hearing, you know, rumors and, you know, ideas of how things. might work itself out. But right now, nobody knows anything. And that's part of the frustration for all of us and all of our lives. But for the NBA in particular, nobody knows right now. And from what I've been told is it could be whenever an announcement is made, which we don't know when it will be made. But when it's made, it's probably going to only be like 10 to 14 days

in advance of when players are told like you're going to Disney World. You're going to Vegas. And this is how it's going to work. It's going to be a short turnaround because week to week, month to month, it's hard to plan ahead. So I wouldn't be shocked if we don't hear anything for quite some time about when games will return, how it will return. And then after that, how it affects the salary cap, how it affects the draft and everything else? I mean, really, how crazy is it, though, Chris? Like, it's May 5th right now. It was almost two months ago that this, the NBA suspended games, we really don't know that much more in two months than we did to at that time in March.

Do we, I mean, do we know much more? I mean, look, here's what we know. We know that America is starting to reopen in different places. And some people have confidence that it's going to be okay and it's worth. the, it's worth the risk as long as everybody maintained safety. Other people have, you know, predicted doom and gloom for the reopening of America. So I think we're still all kind of, you know, how can you know? I mean, come on, these predictions from the very beginning, you know, have been, how can you predict something that is, you know, pretty unpredictable,

I saw that guy from Florida defending himself where there was those articles saying there was going to be, what was it, 464,000 people infected or something like that. And he said it's been 2,000, so they were only like 460,000 off or something. I mean, and I know that that's just that's just one state. But I mean, it just speaks to, you know, dependent upon what kind of models. And obviously we all did the shelter and home thing and people have been quarantined. But, you know, I look at what these scientists show and I look at these models and it doesn't exactly look like the curve has been flattened. It hasn't.

You know, so people have just got to send to hell with it is more. You know what I mean? I mean, I mean, the curve in some ways has been flattened because the point of social distancing and staying at home was to make sure hospitals don't get overcrowded. And so in that sense, it has been effective. However, I mean, like, the fact there's still 2,000 people a day dying from COVID-19. I mean, in some ways, it's been flattened in other ways. No, not at all.

And it could continue to rise, too, if you reopen too soon. Again, like, like every country has done it differently. I mean, Sweden has done sort of that hybrid plan where they have, you know, mostly everything's open, including bars and restaurants. I'm not sure the United States will or should go that far, but to the point, you know, they are, you know, still practicing social distancing in public. They still are, you know, saying people who are compromised immune systems or who are older should stay home and, you know, people should stay away from them. Everybody should wear masks. Like, they are taking a hybrid

approach and their numbers aren't too different than surrounding countries in Europe that have full on lockdowns. And so, again, it's no, it's, it's like a bigger, it's a bigger issue. But like in some ways with coronavirus, we, we, we don't know what the best solutions are. No. It's like with the, NBA, we don't know what's best. Like we, nobody knows anything. No, you guys. Look, like, we're no experts. I'll tell you this. I am in the middle. I don't know. I don't know anybody's an expert right now. I'm in the middle of America and I know two people. I know too personally. You know what I mean? And I have it. Yeah. And I have other. that have family members that have passed away recently from coronavirus.

My mom's aunt's passed away from COVID-19 last week. And, you know, like that was my grandpa's last surviving sibling. And I mean, it's like one of the saddest things is nobody was able to see her at all. You know, that's one of the most heartbreaking things in all this. Well, and one of the things that, you know, you think about is what are these numbers? if we haven't all been at home. I know. I know.

And that's what the whole reopening and you just, it's, I mean, who knows? Tense times to say the least, right? Like, I mean, there's no great answers for this stuff. And that's, that's the great challenge here. I mean, for all of us and, you know,

for just to tie this to the NBA, it's the type of thing where to make this work, they need to have a heck of a lot of testing. And right now, it's May, and we as American citizens are still not able to easily get tested. And it's very, very rare across the country. I know what Los Angeles has it. Or even if you're asymptomatic, you're able to get a test, which is a necessary part of curtailing this and knowing who has already had it, knowing who still hasn't had it,

and therefore could be somebody who gets it. And ultimately until there's widespread testing, it's hard to imagine that the NBA buying out like tens of thousands of tests would be something that people would approve of. And it's what's necessary, though, for any private business to get back, is to have testing happen. And until the United States government really steps up here, for us as people, it's hard to imagine that, like,

are the big corporations like the NBA are going to actually be able to play games. And for the NBA, I think that's another reason why the longer wait, the greater the chance is that that widespread testing will be available, as it should be, as it was within weeks after South Korea had their first, you know, confirmed case of coronavirus. Granted, that's a far different country, of our smaller country. But the fact is, it's unfortunate that it's May 5th right now.

We don't have widespread testing in the United States. That is for certain. One of the things, if we're just talking basketball-wise, that is of interest is in the case that they did return. And we talked about the extreme layoff that it has been and the amount of time that guys have had off. The former league MVP, Kevin Durant, might be able to. play if they came back. Sean Marks said that Durant returning this season is possible. According to a story posted by New Zealand's News Hub this past weekend. That's 100... New Zealand news hub. How about that? That's the $110 million question, Marks told the website. In all seriousness, we've tried not to talk about his timeline a lot. He knows his body better than anybody. Our performance team and training staff have done tremendous job at getting him to this point. But I just don't know. how coming out of the pandemic will affect anybody, let alone Kevin.

When you've got enough invested in a player like Kevin, we're not going to push him to come back. When the timing's right, it'll be 100% when he gets back on the court. I can tell you this, though, before the pandemic, he looked like Kevin Durant, and that's a good thing. Oh, boy. Boy, would that add something to the mix, huh? I mean, we, again, like, time has passed. We speculated about this back in March, and it's like, eh, you know, Rich Climman, his agent came out and said it's not real. for Katie Katie to come back around that time. But if if games are being played again until,

you know, late July, early August, I mean, that's getting pretty close to September training camp before this all started, right? And it wouldn't shock me one bit if Katie was back out there and playing games if, if things do get pushed that far, which is a strong possibility. Like I just said, Labor Day weekend is not a deadline for crowning a champion anymore. It could end up happening later than that. And if that ends up being the case, I mean, who knows? Maybe we'll see the Brooklyn Nets and the NBA finals.

You never know. Look, and I tell you this, Portland should have Zach Collins and Yousef Nurkich back. And, you know, the team I'm around all the time, Justice Winslow had been out as had Jaron Jackson, had Brandon Clark. All those guys are like totally healthy now.

Like, everybody should have. have a pretty close to totally healthy roster, even if you had some, like, is John Wall coming back? Like, who knows? Like, even guys that had like these longstanding injuries, there's been so much time off now. Who the hell knows about time they're playing basketball again? Everybody could have a full healthy roster. No doubt. I mean, like, we could see, we could see Darius Garland, Tristan Thompson, Kevin Porter, back for Cleveland. Oh, they, they had some nagging injuries. I believe Kevin Porter had a concussion. You're still on your cab stuff, huh?

I mean, Dylan Wendler's been out for quite a while. I know, he has. With that leg injury. So you got to get Dylan Windler back to the Cleveland Cavaliers. What an impressive rookie player coming in from Belmont. I don't know, man. You never know the way this stuff. I look forward to Dylan Wendler's debut, Curse.

You never know the way that stuff's going to play out because that was, Right? They blew out the coach that wanted him. And so, you know, John Beeline thought, you know, I remember listening to him say this, that he had, you know, they had, what they had, they wanted to try to find. It would actually make sense the way to build. Like, here's how we're going to create some space. And here's a guy that can slash to the basket in Porter. Here's a guy you can kick out to in Dylan Wendler. So, I mean, there was a, there was a method to their madness and the type of guys that they drive. But plans change when you suck and you fire a coach, right? So there's a lot to like. Oh, yeah. He can shoot the hell out of the ball. He can shoot it. He can shoot the ball.

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Grab a bag today and make your yard a Scots yard. And now back to the mismatch. All right, let's get into the last dance. We saw the episodes, I guess, these were five and six that took place this past weekend. First week, we were all so excited to watch it. It lived up to every expectation. We both loved it.

The second week was obviously not as entertaining, but still, look, we're starving for things to watch, and it was still extremely good. I thought Sunday night was the best night. What did you think? It's fantastic. I liked it the most of the three. The Jordan Kobe stuff was, I mean, emotional.

All of it. It was outstanding. Well, and I've talked, we've talked a lot about how you want to know how real this thing's going to get. And I thought it got very real. Yeah. Especially with these clips of Jordan and coping with fame and coping with the, you know, the bad stories that were coming out about him, that, you know, this idea that he's raised up on this very, high pedestal only for people to try to find what's wrong with the guy and that it bothered him a great deal to the point where his father even defended him. But there's that image of him

sitting inside that he's sitting inside that hotel room. And then he leaves and he's mobbed again everywhere he goes. He just can't go anywhere. And so he is just sitting inside a hotel room and outside of a casino or a golf course. That's pretty well the only places he has to go because he is the most famous, maybe person in the world. There is a little, and I know that it's sad to watch it and you do get the realness of what it was like to be him, even when he's in the back with his own security, which, by the way, that guy stole the show.

Oh, my goodness. The security guard absolutely positively. stole the show in that episode. Just the throwing of the dimes next to the who can get the dime closest to the wall. John Michael Wozniak was his name. Yeah. And yesterday there was an article that came out

and I retweeted it so you can go find it and I don't want to get any of the details wrong. But Matt Fortuna from the athletic, he tracked down John Wozniak's story, who had passed away in January, but Matt tracked down his son, who actually lives in Nashville, Tennessee, and he told the story. And this guy was a former narcotics officer, and he was in Jordan's security detail all the way to the end. And, you know, in that moment, he's just a guy with crazy hair that's mocking MJ as he beats him in this gambling thing. but it was it was great to watch that.

And then I love that somebody thought to, hey, wonder what this guy's story is because clearly America fell in love in one second with this guy who is. There's not a lot of people. He might be the only guy that we have seen in six episodes, goof on Michael Jordan.

Is that fair? Has anybody? I mean, he did the Jordan shrug. But he does all the goof. goofing. Right? There is no, I can't think of anybody else that's goofed on Jordan. I've seen people get mad at him.

I've seen other people get goofed on, but I don't, I think he's the only one that is goop. I guess if you want to say Charles Barkley with the like Chuck, if I could be like Chuck, but that's pretty tame, right? So this guy, the security guard thing was great. But anyways, back to the whole fame thing. there is part of me that says, okay, there is a limit to how bad and how much empathy I am going to have because Jordan's is a little bit different than other people in the sense that, yes, people always try to tear you down and they try to find out, you know, do you curse out teammates,

do you punch teammates, do you gamble, do you do this, do you that, are you. you not perfect, right? Are you not this perfect guy that it's presented to us all the time that this is this perfect guy? And, you know, it sucks because obviously what you find out with everybody is nobody is perfect. And if you dig into anybody, you're probably going to find something you don't like. And so we do this as a culture where we love you and then we try to poke holes and find out what's wrong with you. On the other hand, not everybody has a freaking commercial that says, sometimes I dream that he is me, you know, like Mike, if I could be like Mike, you know?

Like, so you are in some ways complicit to this, hey, be like me. And when like you is, you know, cursing out of teammate, punching a teammate, gambling or whatever, right? Like, that ain't the thing. Like the commercial is you and the little kids running around and you are presented as someone we should all want to be like. And so inevitably you become a target. When you're presented as someone that we should all want to be like, people are going to try to tear that down. And he is a little complicit in the sense that he was. I mean, I saw that commercial back

and I got very nostalgic. I had my mother drive me around town to convenience stores until we found that type of drink. Because the one he's drinking is, it was a new, uh, There was a new flavor called citrus cooler in that, like, that's what the, that's what the flavor that Jordan was drinking. And I had my mom drive me around. Like, I did. I was that kid. I wanted to be like Mike. I mean, that is the kind of power that this guy had.

As a little kid, I wanted those shoes and I wanted to be like Mike. And so there's part of me that is like, hey, man, not everybody's running around saying be like me. you know. Be like Verno. You know, yeah. Be like for hashtag. You know what I mean? Like I don't,

I don't even tell my own kids to be like me. You know, I don't, I don't totally, I understand what you're saying, but I don't, I don't totally agree. I mean,

Jordan may have been presented as a perfect idol for kids to aspire to be, but nobody's a perfect person. Jordan's not a perfect person. person. There's many things I'm sure he wished he didn't do. But you can still idolize a person and still look at them as a role model and want to be like Mike or be like Verno or be like LeBron or be like Bill Simmons or be like whoever and still, you know, understand that they have faults as a person

because they are human. People are different now. For Michael Jordan, you know, Jordan rules and all the stories that came out of the 90s, they did show a different side of him. But as Jordan himself said in the documentary, you know, that I'm not your person. And you don't have to follow me. And it's the truth. If those things, those decisions that he made. Look, that's a 50-something year old Jordan saying that, Kevin. Don't give me that.

Don't give me that. He's what he says now. If you don't want to, if he wasn't being real then. All I'm saying is, is it true? I mean, like, if someone's faults are a reason for you not to idolize them or follow them, then that's just what it is. But there's also still positive qualities in that person and the way they are as a person that can be adapted to your own life. But what does everybody want to say? Well, my only point is I'm not, I don't think it's necessarily just because the marketing was saying be like, Mike, just because he was somebody that was, you know, put on a pedestal as this like perfect player or person who aspire to be like, I don't think that's necessarily.

I don't think that's necessarily reason to feel otherwise about his perspective on some of the negative qualities in his life, though. All I'm saying is when you are, everybody loves this documentary because what do they say? They want to see the real Jordan, right? As if what we were presented was not the real Jordan. And we found that out through the books. We found that out through now these behind the scene tapes that the guy that was presented to us all the time. And that's what people wanted to tear down.

It wasn't as simple as just a regular old guy and people just went out there and wanted to tear it down. It was here is every company in the country presenting us this person and that's not real. And I am with you that you should be able to accept. set people for their faults. We love to tear people down, like everybody teared down Tiger Woods and then everybody was crying when he won the Masters last year. I get the way this works, you know what I'm saying? But on some level, if you've got a song saying, be like me, you know, the commercial is obviously not going to be of you punching a guy

gambling and, you know, berating somebody in the back of a plane. I get it, right? Like, we're not, that's not how you are going to be presented. But if you are doing the B, like me and everybody thinks you're Michael Jordan, the happiest guy on earth and the nicest guy and you're out in the playground playing with kids and all this kind of stuff. And you're so cool. And like really, you're actually a much different person than what is presented to the American public. Then, of course, there's going to be somebody out there that wants to tell everybody, like, yo, that is not. Like, you can watch a Gatorade commercial all you want. That ain't the guy. And being like Mike ain't being like what you see in that commercial.

And that's why Jordan himself did say in that documentary, quote, if I had a chance to do it all over again, I would never want to be considered a role model. It was like a game that was stacked against me and there's no chance that I could win, end quote. That's right. And that just about sums it up. You know, Jordan looks back at that and he, while he does say the part about, I mentioned about, you know, if I'm not the person you want to follow, then that's, I'm just not. but also he does feel in hindsight that maybe he wishes that he never did pursue some of those marketing opportunities to be like Mike because of the expectations that have set for him as a person. You know, I haven't thought about this much, but you just made me think about something.

I wonder if he is the first, certainly he is the first biggest where the mythology was not protected. you know what I mean that at least there at that portion in time where he get so fed up with it and people are on TV talking about it and whatever else that there was you go back to the beginning of

sports writing and you know they'll tell the stories of writers being on a train where you know Babe Ruth's running away from a chick naked while she's you know wielding a knife at him and so you know what I mean? I mean there's like these

there's these old stories about you know this guy is a is a total dirt bag and you know my my parents grew up their hero was you know Mickey Mantle and you know as the years went on let's go look we get back to that Babe Ruth knife story what you've never heard that you've never heard that before no what was that from hold on get up because I don't want to get this wrong um you know you've never heard about this before Oh, no. Here's a couple different things that have been put out about Babe Ruth through history. That New York City Hookers helped destroy his first marriage.

He had that one. He drowned the bases all night long. And he brought a girl in the hotel room that he shared on the road with a teammate. The next morning, his roommate, how many times they'd actually gotten it on? He said, count the cigars. Oh, my God. to their seven cigar butts are out. He was always talking about his sexual prowess.

Oh, here we go. Ruth brushed death, brushed with death a few times. A woman chased him through a crowded train, brandishing a knife because he had cheated on her. A man with a gun chased a naked Ruth out of a hotel in Detroit after Ruth slept with his wife. And in 1925, he missed part of the season with the bellyache herd around the world,

which was almost certainly a combination of poor diet and a ton of syphilis. Wow. I mean, so, look, wow, I had no idea. You had never heard, you had never heard about that story with the woman chasing him in a train. Yeah, that's true. I have not. Bobby, our producer, Big baseball guy, have you heard this story? Do you have any other Babe Ruth stories?

No, I wasn't there, so I don't have any other Babe Ruth stories. I'm going to trust Google on this one. I've heard stories similar to that. I haven't heard all of those stories, though, Verna. Yeah, man. I was just, like, I remember the old train thing from when I was a kid, right? I was a big baseball cart.

I just read every baseball book there was. Somehow that didn't make it into my Mike Lupica novels. You didn't know. The knife wielding woman chasing him in the train. Yeah, man. Didn't quite make it into any of those chapters. Now, imagine that. Imagine that happened now.

Well, I guess you first would be surprised somebody was riding the train. But then you would certainly be surprised that somebody was brandishing a knife at them as they were running through because he had cheated on her. How about him getting chased out of a Detroit hotel because he was some dude's wife? Babe Ruth didn't play now. You better watch you. You better watch your ladies around the babe. I don't think that was in the John Goodman movie either. Maybe we need a real Babe Ruth biopic.

Yeah. So anyways, but what I'm saying is, the point is, it's all these years later. If I said the day Babe Ruth to you, you would not think about his off-the-field exploits. And yet now all these years later, they have chronicled. You didn't even know them, right? Same was true of Mickey Mantle. It's all many of the stories that came out after the fact about him. But my parents, you know, my father and my mother growing up in, you know, West Tennessee, you know, they didn't know Mickey Mantle is a carouser. drinking all the time and all this guys. People didn't know what was going on, right? And part of that is because the people that covered these athletes did protect the image and the mythology.

And so if I round this back around, Sam Smith did not, you know, when the Jordan rules came out. And that kind of let everybody see, hey, it's not all, you know, roses. And like even now you look back and Jeff Perlman's. written that book about the 86 Mets. He also wrote about the 90s cowboys and like some of these stories. And those were, you're protected then. The mythology was even protected then.

And nowadays, jeez, I mean, nothing, nothing is protected. Nothing. I mean, we know,

we know so much more about these guys than ever before. But they can also connect with us in an easier way. Because if they want to get their message out, they can. Yeah, I mean, you got Draymond Green already spilling the beans on the team. Ethan Sherwood Strauss, you know, just published his book, The Victory Machine about, you know, the unmaking of the Warriors dynasty. I mean, stuff comes out pretty quickly in today's day and age with more access and for players, as you said, it's easier to connect. It's easier to connect.

I mean, I thought it was fascinating. And what I'm saying is years ago, that stuff just wasn't printed. You know what I mean? And now it comes out as a tap. happening. Well, yeah. I mean, well, and then Sam Smith was vilified. You know, they didn't get really into that. But I mean, I guess he said he couldn't show up to games for a little while. Like, obviously the book sold like hotcakes. But people didn't want to read that their hero is not the greatest guy. You know what I mean? It's not popular to write that. Nowadays, it's popular to shit on someone. It's a shame, but it is. You get a lot of retweets by telling somebody that they suck. Would you, wouldn't you have gotten a lot of, you know, reprints or, you know, quotable, you know, stories that would have been published in other publications at that time, though, too? I mean, in that way, I'm not sure it's that different in that regard, Chris.

I think, I think today it's just you see it as it's happening. I think it's hard to do the investigative stuff now. Yes, I agree with you there. but I still think like negative criticism still, you know, gets people talking more than, you know, positive stories. It's just the truth. I mean,

it's why news stations do all negative stories and why it's, it's unusual for like John Kaczynski, the actor to be doing, you know, good news day or whatever his show's called. But you know that's been different in sports. It has. We want these guys presented as, you know,

typically the people that care the most and the people you are serving are people that are fans of those guys, right? And so I guess you can say, oh, I would really respect. Like, let's say, I don't know. Like, let's say going back, like you're in, you and your father love the 08 Celtics, right? Like, that's a team that you guys love. And after the season, I don't want to say Bob Ryan, because Bob Ryan is such a respect that unbelievable.

But just some guy in, Dan Shaughnessy, right? Okay, so a lot of people hate. Dan Shaughnessy comes out with an article, you know, a whole expose about how Kevin Garnett is actually not somebody that you should be happy one of the title. The guy is a dirtbag. People would, I guess there would be people out there that would say, oh, yeah, but I don't think it sells that much, honestly, Kevin. Because people in Boston would be like, if this guy. People do say, F this guy. You know what I mean?

They love, you know, their players. Or if there was some kind of thing about how, you know, you shouldn't feel happy. about the Red Sox titles because, you know, there was a bunch of guys that did steroids or something. People don't want to hear this shit. Like you could say they do, but they, it's different in sports. People like positive in sports. They do more so about their teams. They like negative about everybody else. But about their teams, which is what, who you're really going to sell books to, you know, they don't want, they, they'd rather have the good news stuff that reflects how they felt. about that team, you know? It's just like for, for years, nobody wanted to hear even something about how like,

well, Russell Westbrook needs to start trying more in defense. Russell Westbrook needs to improve as an off ball player. Maybe you should take the ball out of Russell Westbrook's hand. Nobody wanted to hear that. You just want to hear the positive, for sure. That's right. Anyways, other things from the last dance. What else really stood out to you from these last couple episodes?

I mean, what we touched on a little bit before, but the Kobe, the Kobe Jordan stuff from the All-Star game was just awesome to see the behind the scenes of the players talking about Kobe in the other locker room. The quote from Michael Jordan saying, that little Laker boy is going to take everybody one-on-one. He don't let the game come to him.

He just goes out there and takes it. I don't know. I just love seeing that behind the scene, some of the great players in that Eastern Conference locker room talking about the young guy, Kobe Bryant, on the other side. That was, it was just damn cool to see that. A couple of things basketball-wise that stood out.

A, poor Charles Smith. What an unbelievable defensive possession. And I know, I'm sorry, Nick's fans, for bringing this up. And obviously, Charles Smith's name is mud still to this day. But my God, Kevin, how many chances does he have right underneath the basket? And it's just block after block. after block. And you watch some of those,

how intense was that Bulls-Nicks thing? Oh, my God. I mean, they are just at each other's throats in that deal. Other basketball-wise, how awesome was Barclay? I think that was great. He's always awesome.

But for people to get to see that, you know what I mean? And what he looked like and what kind of player he was and how fantastic he was. And watching those old clips of the sun's things, and it was also funny to watch. You know, one of the things that always comes up with like the LeBron killer instinct stuff

or anybody that we want to jump on is they'll say people will jump up and they'll say, oh, well, Jordan passed to John Paxon, Jordan passed to Steve Kerr. You know, he trusted his teammates, blah, blah, blah. And it just becomes something that people say. And I hope that everybody was watching the other night because, A, Horace Grant has the ball and he doesn't want any part at going for what appears to be a totally open lay up, he's the one that throws it out to John Paxon. I promise you, if Michael Jordan had that ball, John Paxon would not have touched that ball. And I also promise you that if John Paxson

would have missed that shot, he would have gotten his ass beat. Those are the two things from watching that back. So enough already with the Jordan trusted his teammate. He didn't even touch a ball. Horace Grant had it and then he threw it out to John Paxon. But it's always presented heads. There's no way Michael Jordan doesn't take that shot. He was probably pissed on. Thank God for John Paxson and the lives of everybody on that Bulls team that John Paxson made that shot. But you are fooling yourself if that Joker wouldn't have taken that shot if he had the ball. He just didn't have it.

If there's anything you've learned from this, he was not going to let somebody else decide his fate in that series. Jordan did pass to Grant, though. Yeah. To get the ball back. Even John Paxson says that play wasn't for me. Oh, yeah. Right? I'm supposed to.

Right. And they all just abandoned Horace Grant. Horace Grant should have, I mean, he could have gone and just taking the layup, right? For sure. And I'm trying to think there was another basketball thing that I wanted to mention that we saw within the context of this. Oh, the Magic Johnson story where he says, I played cards with him the night before. And he was saying that, you know, they've been building up the Jordan Drexler thing

and he's like, you know, I'm going to kill this dude tomorrow night. Yep. And of course, he went out and did it. The other thing is typically like with me, of grudges I held or like some kind of, there's some kind of reason that I really want to beat somebody in something. It is personal with me.

His is this even, because it extends to beyond just one person, that's when you know it's like truly, a madness, as it were, because you hear, like, just because Jerry Krause thinks Dan Marley is a good defender. Like, Dan Marley hadn't done anything to him. Or just because he likes Tony Koo coach. Jordan just decides, I'm going to kill this guy. Like, these people themselves are frankly innocent in terms of making Michael Jordan angry. But it's because somebody he doesn't like thinks something.

thing about this person that you get on the other end of his anger. And that is a tough, that's a tough deal, man. Because if he decides he wants to kick your ass, it certainly appears you're going to kick your ass. All right. The most important question I'm going to ask you on the show, Kevin. Game on the line. Who would take the last shot?

No. Me, that's a dumb question. When you were doing, when you were doing all your goofy LeBron stuff and LeBron might be the goat, through six episodes has your opinion. been altered. Goofy LeBron's stuff. No. You're going to act like you haven't done the whole LeBron's a go thing. Yeah, no, but I mean, why goofy LeBron's stuff as if he's not the second or third greatest player of all time at worst and still not in the conversation? I'm going to say to you exactly what I said to Bill Simmons on his pod. The fact is, is Michael Jordan's story is

written. It's over. The playing career is done. LeBron's isn't finis. yet. So I can understand if you want to say MJ's the greatest player. I get it. Cool, man. Like, obviously he's right there. But LeBron James still has years left and we don't know where this is going to go. We don't know how long he'll play if he'll win any more championships, if he'll win any more MVP's. There's a strong possibility that he does considering the fact that he's on one of the best teams in basketball in Los Angeles Lakers. There's a possibility that he wins one or more titles for the rest of his career and he would have the longevity argument on his side. He could have the championship argument. He could have the fact that he's won in different

eras. There could be a lot of arguments in favor of LeBron. Today, I think he's the most talented player of ever seen in my life. But I also was only born in 1990 and didn't live through everything with Michael Jordan, which is why when it comes to the goat discussion, sometimes I think it's hard for someone my age or younger to really truly debate Jordan versus LeBron. That's just me being totally rational about this conversation, but I also

think it's equally irrational for someone to say, oh, LeBron's not the greatest, there's no chance will be the greatest. Of course there's a chance because it's not over for him yet. It's so happening. Can we, can you and I at least agree that based upon

what we spoke about today, that Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player ever? Did I persuade you on that level? I mean, those are some pretty compelling stories. He got chased with a knife by a woman. By the way, there's no place to go in a train. Do I mean, there's only so far you can run when you're on a train. It's kind of like on a plane.

There's really, you're going to run out of space. So I do need to, I do need to know the end of the story if somebody, you know, you know, You know what I can't stand? I can't stand discussions when it's like, well, what would Babe Ruth do today in 2020? What would Michael Jordan do today in 2020? It's so hard to compare different errors of how guys would perform. And obviously, Michael Jordan would still be unbelievable today. But the fact is, like, I hate when it's used as a detriment for players today, plugging them in the past.

I mean, like, you have, there's a quote from Wilk, I'mberland in the 90s saying I would score 60 or 70 points today in the 90s. Like you have you have players today. People are saying, well, would Bron James be worse with the physicality of the game in the 90s? It's like, well, I don't know. I mean, it would be different. But it's just a silly theory. As we discussed last week, anybody that's great within their era would have adapted to however it is to be great in that era.

But I'll tell you this. One thing we did, Babe Ruth would have had a totally full. inbox on Instagram, Twitter, and every other platform. That's what we

know. He could have been more careful about his dalliances. Oh my goodness. Their true goat, Babe Ruth. This is the NBA podcast.

Babe Ruth and Wilts Chamberlain, right? Bobby, I want you to do an entire Ringer MLB show about Babe Ruth's stories.

The oral history of the knife chase. Yes. The oral history. Come on, Kev. What did I say? What did I say?

say. All right. We're out of here. This show is for, what did I say? Come on. I want the kids to be able to listen to this. Like Kev,

if I could be like Kev, you got a window inside the real demented mind. What? All right. That's going to do it for the show. Thanks to Bobby Wagner, as always, for producing.

We will be back on Friday. If you want to send us some questions via the mailbag, give him the address, Kevho. NBA mail. mailbag at gmail.com and thank you everybody in advance for sending such awesome awesome questions NBA mailbag at gmail.com we will talk to you on Friday.