The Ringer NBA Show - The LeBron-Era Lakers’ Drama Intensifies | Heat Check (Ep. 332)

Episode Date: November 5, 2018

The Los Angeles Lakers add another loss to their turbulent start to the regular season (4:07), and the league’s offensive explosion is transforming defensive schemes (27:34). Plus, examining the importance of providing context to Derrick Rose’s comeback narrative (55:04). Host: John Gonzalez Guests: Juliet Litman, Justin Verrier, Haley O’Shaughnessy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Liz Kelly. Here's what to look out for on the ringer.com this week. Mark Titus is covering the college basketball national player of the year candidates, and Zach Cram is writing about Steph Curry and his legendary start to the season. You can check it all out on the ringer.com. Welcome to Heat Check Podcast. I'm your host, John Gonzalez, joined as I am every week by the incomparable. The incomparable, the excellent Isaac Ice Lee.

Isaac, over the weekend, I went to the Lakers. They hosted the Toronto Raptors. it did not go well. Yes. And it occurred to me that you were quite delighted by you were delighted in Slack, you were delighted on Twitter,

you delighted in our texts. And I was wondering the previous week when the Clippers were throttling one Austin Rivers, you were pretty excited about that. Yes. What makes you more excited

when the Clippers play well or when the Lakers don't? I think it's equal. I think it's two sides of the same coin. I feel an immense amount of Schroen-Froid when the Lakers are bad. And obviously,

I love watching my team succeed. But I think specifically when the Lakers have high expectations, the Lakers exceptionalism, and that is let down by the Lakers themselves, that's probably the highest point of Schadenfreude. A couple of things here. One, I love that you feel equal amounts of joy

when your team plays well as when the Lakers don't. I also really enjoy the way that you pronounce Schadenfreude. I generally don't do the Freuda because I feel like putting on the German airs is a little bit much, but I like your affectation there. It's almost gutterol. Did you take German at some point? No, no, no, I took linguistics.

Okay, good enough. When I learned a word, that's how they taught me to say. What am I going to do? I'm sorry if I sound pretentious. No, I like it. We try to appeal to the upper crust of NBA fans here at Heech. We've got all kinds of good stuff for you on today's program. I think it's going to be a good one.

I want to thank everybody for listening. Please rate and review us and all of our fantastic Ringer NBA shows and pods, if you wouldn't mind. We also have lots of great content on the Ringer. KOC has a pretty good, interesting piece about Foltz. And not even just pretty good, very good piece and super interesting about Fultz and Gordon Hayward and those two teams trying to do sort of a delicate balancing act of the Sixers bringing those guys along now with the hope that they'll pay off a little bit later. Brian Curtis wrote a piece about the politics of NBA players and whether they're sufficiently active, which is a germane piece considering the election is on Tuesday. We want to urge everybody to get out to the polling place and vote. and Palo Esco blog was at the Lakers game with me.

He had a really good piece about the Raptors making quite the sales pitch to Kauai Leonard in L.A. Quai didn't even play, so he just got to sit there and watch the Raptors throttle the Lakers, and Palo makes a lot of good points of his piece, so you want to go and check that out. Later in the show, we will have Justin Varyer on the program to talk about the problem with playing defense in an era of offensive explosions. We also did a group post called Real or Not Real. We'll get into that with Varyer. Haley O'Shaughnessy will also be here. Haley's been killing it.

She's had a whole bunch of really good stories lately, so we're just going to rattle through all of those. She had one about Ambide and the real estate he owns and the heads of other players. Derek Rose and the narrative attached to him when he scored that 50-point game and some of the things that other media outlets, not us, but other ones conveniently left out.

And how to be a good teammate for LeBron, that's particularly germane right now, considering that things aren't going necessarily all that well for the Lakers. Which brings us to the first topic. I mean, last week, Isaac, we started with drama. And I didn't want to do drama again. But how could we avoid the drama here with the Lake Show, 10 games in, two games under 500,

throttled at home with the Kawhilis Lakers? We got to start there. And for that, we need a special guest. Boom, Shakalaka. He's heating up. All right, joining me in the studio. One of the originals, one of my favorites. The original, really, frankly, is Julia Lippman.

She's here. She's sitting across for me. It's Monday. She's bright-eyed. I'm confused about why you're wearing a warrior shirt. So when I go on, one, it's very comfortable. I like the design. It's the town shirt for people who can't see you, which is everyone.

Yeah, and it's one of the, like the material is like that vintagey, not pure cotton, but it's like. A blended cotton. It's a blended. So I like the feel of it. It looks cool. But so when I go on road trips for the ringer.com to cover various NBA concerns, I generally get a t-shirt that I think looks cool from that city. So I have a whole smattering of T-Chort. I buy T-shirts.

In fact, I was wearing a, I have like a whole host of different shirts. One of them is a Nix shirt that's like bright orange that I think is very cool. But obviously I'm from Philly. I'm not a Nix fan. I just like the shirt. And I saw somebody at the supermarket in Santa Monica where I live. And he was like, yeah, Knicks. And he wanted to give me a fist bump.

And I'm like, yeah, dude, I can't. I can't fist bump you. I just like the shirt. And then it was like this big thing about why I wouldn't fist bump this guy just because I was wearing. He was a big Knicks fan. But I draw the line at the fashion. I can't be party to your partisanship.

All right. Are we talking about the Lakers or what? Sorry, I derailed us. It's like you're hosting again. This is great. I don't know any other way. Getting us back on track. Yes, we're talking about the Lakers.

They had a pretty awful Sunday. The first quarter was the worst in terms of margin in Lakers history. Serge Abaka had a career high 34 points in the win for the Toronto Raptors. the Raptors absolutely smacked them, which wasn't that great because Kwai Leonard wasn't on the floor for the Raptors. So for the Lakers,

they go to Portland, Juliet, on Saturday. They win, barely. They snap a 16-game losing streak. In Portland. In Portland. And so it was this thing where it had come on the heels

of the Wode's report saying that Magic Johnson had a meeting with Luke Walton on Tuesday that, quote, reverberated through the Lakers organization and the pressures on the coach to win sooner than later. So they win that game.

It seems like a 10th, takes a little bit of heat off of Luke, and then they get absolutely throttled by the Toronto Raptors at home. Tough. Not a good look. Very tough. When you're making Sir Jabaka look like the trade piece that he was once was, it's a problem. Yeah.

So Palo has a piece about that on the ringer.com saying, like, this is a good sales pitch to Kauai Lenin where you can come in and go, why would you want to go to the Lakers when we're better than the Lakers without you? It's true. It's dysfunctional already. It is dysfunctional already. So it was interesting Sunday. So I was at the game.

And of course, there was a ton of questions. There's just countless media. I keep waiting for the crowds to thin out. And it's not thinning out. Yeah, I know. It's everybody who has ever carried a notebook or a recorder or a pen and covers the NBA. It's just here now all the time. I went to one game.

I went to Nuggets, Lakers, like a week and a half ago. And it was electric. It was a feeling in Staples that I have not experienced before because I never went to like a Kobe Shack game or even like the 2010 Lakers. Like I never went to a game like that. It was great. Like it was also just really like the security was tighter.

Like the fanfare was greater. It was awesome. It's a production. Yes. And so because of all the Luke stuff, there were a ton of media members like trying to sniff stuff out. And as it turns out, the LA Times sort of cornered Magic Johnson. Now, knowing how the sausage gets made here,

I'm going to guess that it wasn't that hard for magic to get cornered, considering what he revealed to the LA Times. And what the quote was from the Times, and this is from Tanya Ganguli from the LA Times, she said, Magic Johnson said his contentious meeting with Luke Walton had no bearing on Walton's job security.

Quote, I said it, Luke took it, and we're all good. Johnson assured us Walton will finish the year. So a couple of things about that. One, finish the year, like being a little bit of a skeptic. Yeah. The year ends in December. The season goes longer. I didn't think of it that way.

I think about all these things that way. But then Plashky columnist for the LA Times, you see him on around the horde and all that stuff. He put in part of the quote that Tanya left out, which was, he's going to finish the season, dot, dot, dot, unless something drastic happens, which it won't. This is never going away. No.

I also just want to say, interesting, the two reporters from the same outlet, like picked that quote up in different ways. Yeah. That's problematic editing, in my opinion. Well, when the, I initially saw Tanya's first. And I thought to myself, okay, so this is obviously clearly damaged control by magic. He went out and he slapped Luke on the rest and he's getting impatient already, even though he said he's not going to get impatient.

That was inevitable. And so they wanted to do a little damage control. And oh, you want to talk to me? Sure, I'll let you corner me in the hallway by the locker room before the game starts after a win, right? Oh, we're all good. Kumbaya. But yes, then I saw Plashky's part, and I was like, oh, so yeah, he's giving himself so much wiggle room there. It's, it's true.

It's like the goalposts are shifting within his one sentence, basically. A couple of things here. So like at the beginning of the season, before the season even began, before training camp even began, Majic and Rob had this media availability where they were like, hey, you know, we love our team. We think the pieces are really good. We think we're really deep. Luke's going to figure it out. We're going to give him some time.

Yeah. Did you ever buy that even for a second? I kind of did. I just feel like Luke Walton, I mean, he's part of the Lakers family, I guess. He is. Yeah. I mean, not only did he play for them, but also his father. Sure.

He's like, you know, a part of the fabric of the organization. It's like anyone would get the benefit of the doubt, it would be him. But I was reading the athletics report on this, which was by Sam Amick, Amick from the weekend. And he was saying, like, during Luke Walton's, like, greatest triumph, which was going 39 and 4 with the Warriors while Steve Kerr was injured. It's like they had already won a championship. They had a system in place, which I assume we'll come back to.

And it was like, you know, it's just not the same thing. Like I think there's like two things in place there. Like one, I think coaching is overrated. I think that talented players who have like their right mindset will make it work. And I think it's a lot more like ego management than like quote unquote system. Yeah. And two, like it's just like not comparable to go with a championship winning team. that wasn't like relying on several second year players and this Lakers team.

Like that's just that's just not the same thing. But I think the main thing with Luke is that obviously LeBron changed everything. Sure. But like a few articles have pointed out, it's like hard to put LeBron on a system. It's not impossible if we saw it in Miami. And like, yeah, LeBron's like a different player than he was in Miami. And like it was obviously a very, very different team. But so much of it is ego management.

And like Luke is just maybe not the right person to work with LeBron. that sense. I mean, when we talk about the system, though, like what exactly, the system that the Lakers are trying, I mean, yes, they're running a lot more than LeBron probably, like at 33 years old, would probably want to run. But it makes sense with the players that they have. Yes, they could use more shooting. But it's pass, find the open guy, you know, run, run, run, run, try to score and get to the room. The defense has really been the problem. I think that's interesting because in his first year, the Lakers were not a good defensive team. In his second year, they made a pretty significant jump into the middle of the pack from the back of the pack. Yeah. And now this

year as Verrier, and he's going to be on the program a little bit later, as Verrier, and everybody else who's watched him in a second of the NBA knows, nobody's playing defense right now, so it's been really difficult. So I think that there's, like, when you say that coaching is sort of overrated, I go, like,

what exactly does Magic expect Luke to Presto change here? Sure, sure. And like, so much of it just has to be, like, working with LeBron. You know what I mean? It's just when you have LeBron on your team, particularly veteran LeBron, like, it's not like you can just impose a system. It's more about like, okay, how do I work with LeBron to figure out a system that we're

both on the same page with? And like, is that an appealing job? Someone like Luke Walton, I don't know. Probably not. He was like running the team. And then he has to like figure out how to make it work with LeBron. It's, I don't know. I mean, I guess like there's the hope of winning a championship, but they're obviously not going to. So. Not now. But if you can weather this and stick around for a second, then I think you're all right. Now the question is whether or not he can pull that off because this is going to be one of those situations. I mean, like, I just think about that, the Plashky component where it's like, unless something drastic happens, right?

Like a traitor. It's just such a massive fucking hole that you could drive a truck through about, like, this is going to linger all season long. Had they, think about this, had they, they almost blew that game in Portland. Yes. Right? Yeah. So coming off of all the palace intrigue, the Kremlinology, right?

All the stuff that happened with like magic sitting him down and talking to them and supposedly yelling at him and cutting them off and all this stuff. Had they blown that game? Right. And then lost to the Raptors? Maybe he'd be out. No, we're off to the fucking races. Then they'd be two and seven instead of three and five.

Or they'd be two and six instead of three and five. They're four and six. Four and six. So they'd be three and seven. Right. That's bad. That's way worse. In the small sample size theater, that's way worse.

It is. I don't feel like LeBron's trying very hard, which is like fine because he also didn't try very hard for parts of his four seasons in Cleveland, or three seasons, yeah, four, four seasons in Cleveland. But he doesn't have the supporting cast in the same way to do that. Like, he can't really, like, there's obviously no Kyrie. There's not even. But this year's, I would say, you're right, like in the Kyrie iterations,

sure, stipulated. In last year's iteration, he brought, he carried two versions of dog shit teams all season long. The first one with Jay Crowder and D. Rose, and Isaiah Thomas for 15 games and they had to jettison everybody and then they brought in a bunch of other guys who sucked and he carried them on his back

and played the most minutes, played all 82 games. I look at this Lakers team supporting cast and I go, he's got more talent this year than he did last year. Now they're in the West so it makes it more complicated.

I just think like... That is a big factor though, right? Huge, huge factor. No doubt about it. Think about how many games this team could steal in the Eastern Conference like against the Hawks,

against the magic. They need to relocate. The nets. They need to move the Lakers to the Eastern Conference. Let's just change up the league for our own purposes, basically. I like it. It would be excellent content. I just think like when I look at this team and I get like we should have all known from the very beginning that the idea of like magic and Rob going, sure, yeah, no, we know it's going to be a process.

And there's been times when LeBron said that. Like I know what I got myself into. You know, it's going to take a second. But there's really no universe where like LeBron and this is like not really about LeBron. It's more about the front office. There's no universe where the Lakers organization that expects and demands exceptionalism adds in LeBron James and goes,

sure, yeah, take your time. I can't believe I even considered it for like a quarter of a second, and an end of a second, that they would be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll be patient. Of course they were not going to be patient. Right. And I want, like, there's got to be some mirrors in the El Segundo training facility, right?

Like, doesn't magic look at this and go, oh shit, yeah, I put this roster together, And like getting LeBron's great and all, but you add it, like, Javelle's been fantastic. And I want to, like, sort of put Javelle off to the side here. But you add in Rondo and Lance and Beasley. And then you're all going to, and you're going to go, oh, yeah, it's on Luke. Sure. I know.

I mean, it's not really fair. And then, like, where do you stand on Lanzo right now? Is he good or is he bad? He's a real Rorschach test for what kind of basketball fan you are. Okay, so I look at all four of their young guys. And I would say, like, if you're going to say who's been the most consistent best, of the Kuzma Ingram Hart ball group?

Yeah. It's been Kuzma. Kuzma's been their best guy so far. Ingram had the suspension and was inconsistent. I love Josh Hart. I think he's going to be really good. It's a lot of control.

He's been a little hit or miss. And Lonzo, too, super hit or miss. And I look at those four guys and I go, on paper, they're young. They've got talent. They've just been so inconsistent. So, like, where am I? It depends on the night.

Yeah. I think part of the problem with Lanzo is also, like, what kind of player does he want to be and do they want him to be? because sometimes when he's shooting, you're like, oh, right, like he was supposed to be a great shooter. That's exciting.

And then sometimes he's a really great on defense, but he doesn't really have like a clear identity on the court yet. And I think that makes it hard to use them. It's true for all of them. Kuzma, I think, has been the best because he has the clearest identity to the team. Yeah, I mean, they need some scoring. Sure.

He's running out there and he's got a, you know, he's relatively big body, although playing him at the five is a fucking disaster, which is why they had to go and bring in Tyson Chandler. He grew a lot. over the summer, huh? He's a large human. I mean, he could, like, thicken up a little bit, but he's still a kid.

I mean, if you want someone to thicken up, let's get Brandon Ingram a few sandwiches. They all need sandwiches. We should get them all sandwiches. Where are you before we move? Because we talk a lot of Lakers and we write a lot of Lakers and we have other teams to discuss. We are in L.A. Also, you can't really talk enough Lakers when it's LeBron and the Lakers together. There's just so many storylines.

And again, it's not going away. None of this is going away. No should it. I know that people get frustrated about, like, you know, the preponderance of Lakers' discussions and coverage, but good luck. I mean, it's like the Warriors. They're not going away anytime soon in terms of what we're discussing. But where are you, like 10 games in, best bet, what are the Lakers going to do?

How are they going to, what's the season going to look like? Is Luke going to make it? What's your best bet? It's very hard to bet against LeBron. Like, I always regret it. However, I think they miss it. the playoffs when Luke gets fired? It's a fire take. You're on heat check. He came in hot. I love it. I go, I go one of two. I go, it's going to be, like if I had to bet on Luke, I think it's going to be

difficult for him to survive this season. You know, magic's comments notwithstanding. I don't bet against LeBron. I think they'll make the playoffs. Okay. They'll squeeze in. There's eight teams. He's going to make it. All right. From LeBron's current team to his old team talking about things that are up in the calves cannot get out of their own way. Cleveland.com had a story saying, disharmony, the headline was disharmony builds following the worst loss of the season they fell to the hornets. J.R. Smith came out and said the team is in a very weird place right now.

Larry Drew was sort of like in the interim head coach thing and was like, I don't know, you don't need to call me the interim head coach. If you want to put me back on the bench, I'm fine with that. Apparently they fired Lou in part because he ignored a directive from the front office to play the young guys over J.R. Smith. This is the quote from the story that I really found interesting. Kobe Altman recently sat down with Smith because of what was perceived as poor body language and a change in attitude. It was the negative shift that led Kobe Altman asking if Smith even wanted to be around the team.

The goal there was to protect the players and keep any bad juju away. And then JR responded to that by giving a quote that said, no one knows what they're supposed to be doing other than the vets. This is J.R. Smith, the same J.R. Smith, who created one of the most famous memes means. and NBA history in the finals last year when he was completely lost. The kids are a mess. A mess. A mess. It's sad.

I mean, it's also like, this is what happens when you take out the best player. Yeah. It's a bummer. Also, Kevin Love, he's now injured, and he's rehabbing in New York, which is, like, I guess more common than people realize that you do your rehab, not in the city or you're playing, but where you can get the best treatment. But, like, that just seems like a blessing for him. He's like, he doesn't have to be near of the team, and he can be free.

Yeah. They're a total mess. And then the Cleveland.com story, really tough look for Colin Sexton. Not a good look for Colin Sexton. Too many twos, low assist rate, high turnovers, he looks lost out there. He doesn't know to play defense. But there was, like, in the same way that I don't, like, I wonder about the expectations that the Lakers hadn't, like, whether or not they're reasonable from the front office on down, right?

Like, in the Cleveland story, and also there was an athletic story that sort of, have said the exact same things at the same time. So clearly there's a lot going on in Cleveland. But it was basically like Cleveland thought it could compete this season. Right. And I'm like, compete with what? I think some people thought that though. Like I think preseason, like even here at the ring are people like yeah, Cleveland can sneak into the playoffs. Like they still have Kevin Love. They still have Kyle Corver, a good shooter, still like Jarrah Smith or whatever. But there's like back to the earlier conversation, their system was like LeBron finding people and, you know, and J.R. Smith and Kyle Corver were hitting three is basically.

Yeah. And Tverson Thompson offensive rebound. And, like, they actually didn't have a system. And so then when Tailu was, like, asked to play the young guys, there was no, there's nothing to plug them into. You know what you mean? They're kind of like starting over from scratch. Yeah, you're like, go ahead.

Play Chetty Osman, I guess. It's fine. I think it also just sort of gets back to, like, it's a superstars league. Like, a system works when you're plugging in the best players or, like, one of the five best players was supporting people around him. Like, it's a solar system. It's not, like, just a constellation of stars. That's an excellent analogy.

Thanks. I enjoy that quite a bit. A metaphor, one of those. Here's the part that I really, like, thought was also interesting because we have, like, a bunch of people at the ringer who might have thought that the Cavs could compete this year. I was not among them. Evidently, Kyle Corver and Kevin Love were potentially also not among them because they were told repeatedly, according to these reports, that the plan was to compete, how.

However, they thought that if they didn't compete, that they would be traded. And this is a quote from the story. A number of players, including Levin Corver, were told repeatedly the plan was to compete. When James left in free agency, Corver actually asked the Cavs to trade him. And that was the deal he thought he had the organization upon resigning in 2017 and wanted to happen in July. So, like, he's told, hey, we're going to compete. And then LeBron leaves. And he's like, okay, I thought you were going to trade me.

and now he's on this team stuck and loves rehabbing. They're completely screwed and it's a complete tire fire. It really is. Where do you think Kyle Corver should go? Where would he be best used? I mean, the Sixers could use some shooting. Not to like default to my usual, but they could use some scoring and some shooting and they don't have much of it beyond JJ Reddick.

It's definitely like an existential crisis for... The Lakers could use some. That's true. He'd be good on the Lakers. And he's like such a California person. There's like an existential crisis in the league, I think. where like there's parody in that there's like either you or have a chance or you don't. And just sort of like what's the point if you if you don't?

Is that a terrible way to point it? Is that too bleak for a Monday morning? You're so existential this morning. I really like it. I'm so sorry. What is this all about anyway? But like what is the point for the for the calves? The reason they want to compete, right, is for like extra money that you get from being in the playoffs.

Like it's important for a smaller team to make the playoffs. They're just holding out hope until the All-Star game arrives in 2020. It's going to be a great time. Last drama point to hit with you, we've talked about them, I think, every single show so far on heat check. We've got to throw it out there one more time just because they completely keep cratering. The wolves are still out there doing wolves things. Jimmy Butler, it was reported that he might not play back-to-backs. Well, he didn't play in an absolute blowout in Portland.

They're going to play again tonight as you're listening to this. It says, he says, you know, I'll let them know when I'm going to play. I'll let them know how my body feels. He got pissy with the media for asking about it. He's still there. How can you get pissy for the media when you do all this for media theatrics? Like, come on, Jimmy Butler. He calculated his return and had ESPN cover the whole bit and tip them off to it.

And then he's like, huh, I can't believe you would ask me about this. I don't know. I mean, I really love Jimmy Butler's game. I'm really souring on Jimmy Butler. Of course. This is intolerable behavior. It's like, it's ridiculous. I just have a couple of thoughts.

One is Adam Silver was like, I think that teams and players show on their contracts. Great lawyerly response from the lawyer in charge, Adam Silver. But this gets at something that I think came up like in Whispers last year, which is like, could the Spurs sue Kuwait? The wolves should sue Jimmy Bellar for being in breach of contract. It would like kind of be interesting. It also would set a precedent of like how this can be done. Like this is, in my opinion, it would be out for the league.

The league wouldn't like it. But like it should move. towards legal action because that will like decide like a precedent of how these things can be handled. Law and order NBA is what we need. We need that. That's got to happen. I'm the disciplined candidate, you know. Dust them all off and bring them out. I like, I don't know. At the beginning of the season, I and Chris was yelling at me about this because I was like, I want all of it. I want Jimmy to be on this team for the entire season. Yeah. I want them to infight because I like a storyline and I like drama and it's great for entertainment because I don't play for the wolves. What do I care? I'm already starting

to rethink that position. I don't know if I could make it through a whole season of Jimmy Butler going. I don't know if I'm going to play back to backs. I'm going to get pissy with the media about it. I hate all my teammates, you know, and we're just doing this in perpetuity for the rest of the year. At some point, it's going to be less entertaining than I anticipated. It's getting there almost. It's a distraction. Do you think the wolves make the playoffs? I don't know. That's a good question. There's so many bubble teams in the West. It's very less is one giant bubble. Yeah.

Because right now, like the line of demarcation at the very end, the thunder are starting to play better. You've got the Jazz who have sort of been hit or miss. The Pelicans got off to a hot start. They've since fallen off. They've lost five in a row. The Timberwolves are two games under.

You've got the Lakers. Like a lot of the teams that I thought would be above that playoff line are below. And I still anticipate that they'll course correct. So you've got to figure the kings will fall off. The Grizzlies will fall off. Isaac Earmuffs. I'm not sure about the. clippers.

I don't know. Yeah, it's one giant bubble. I guess it makes it kind of interesting. Sure. And did you see that Pesdelic is going back to the Rockets? He's coming out of retirement. This is what they needed. Yeah.

This is the thing that they needed as the catalyst to propel them back into the playoffs in the top tier of the Western Conference. What an indictment of Mike Dan Tony? Poor Mike. Is it, whatever? He gets so much credit. He's going to be looked back on as like a visionary as like for seven seconds or last or whatever.

Yeah, he's a good coach. I think he's a good coach. He's an underrated coach. He won coach of the year. last year. He's a properly rated coach. He's properly rated coach. But they're going to course correct and it's going to be fun. Julia Lidman, is this a source to say week? Yes, it is. It's a source to say week. On Wednesday. That's my favorite week. Sources say is back on Wednesday. You've got jam session. You've got all kinds of things. You're running around. You were in meetings.

You're running the place. Too much going on. So much going on. Thank you for stopping in on heat check. It's great to have you back. Talk to you later. All right. All right, that was Julia Lippman. We love when she comes through to do another heat check reunion. and next up we've got Justin Varyer. All right, joining me in the studio senior NBA editor. Also, you can hear him on group chat on Thursdays. And he was just on Simmons, Justin Varyer. Hi, friends. You're everywhere.

You've written all kinds of fun stuff. We're going to talk about our group post, real or not real in just a second, which I'm already rethinking. Isaac went on a fucking preview of it before we talk about it. I'm going to get to it, Isaac. Just wait, you hold. But first, long anticipated. There was rumors, there was rumbling.

in the ringer staff and Slack, and I saw you out, like, reporting it. And just a killer piece about NBA defenses and the difficulty of playing at that side of the court in an offensive fucking explosion that we've experienced so far. As Draymond and a lot of people have pointed out, nobody's playing defense right now. And it's sort of reverberated across the league, and you talk to a whole bunch of people about it. Yeah. I think I thought of the thesis of the piece a couple months ago just because not only because

of the way the league was going, offense was obviously up. before the season, but also in the playoffs, it seemed like things were getting to the point where the playoffs were a different game, which is kind of a cliche we say every year, but specifically on the defensive end where things that would work for a game or two probably wouldn't work in the third game, simply because teams adjust. There are just so many options you can't really stop everything. And then it got to the point this season where everything exploded, and I guess the timing just kind of aligned.

So there's so many parts of the story that I want to get into, but I want to start with the switch everything idea. Houston obviously did that last season. They basically were like, hey, look, if you can get your big on one of our guards, like, we'll take that because the post is a lower percentage play point per possession, and you know, we'll take that trade off.

It's been less advantageous that strategy for them this season. Mike Dan Tote was trying to explain it. He was on Zach Lowe's podcast and he was saying, look, we basically looked at it as like matching up with the Warriors, that if you don't switch everything against the Warriors, you're fucked.

Like, you're automatically crushed. Switching everything against the Warriors could potentially give you a shot. Right. It did. Yeah. They took them to seven games, and they've had probably the best shot at them since their run. Maybe that Thunder team when Durant was still on there, but they were just as, they hung with them. They weren't just as good, but they hung with them.

But then this year, that strategy, they were deploying and employing it again, and it's worked out less well for them. Dan Tony had said at some point that he had thought about, like, I don't know, maybe we need to go back to the drawing board on this defense here. And a quote that you had in the story that I think really underscored that point well was PJ Tucker talking about it being like basically you ask you have to, when you're switching all the time, you're running a full diagnostic test on the fly about can the guard get through the screen? What's the matchup?

Because you don't want to end up with CP on somebody like Anthony Davis and are you physical enough to play through those switches? And can you send the double team from the baseline? Do they have shooters on the floor? And there's all these things that you have to calculate when you're playing a defense like that, that maybe, you know, makes it more difficult. Yeah, and I think one of the big things with that is it's not only perhaps a personnel issue with the Rockets this year. They've obviously been injured a lot, and they're trying to work

guys in that weren't within the system. And one of the things that Dan Tony brought up that I hadn't thought about beforehand was just that, like, I guess veteran players are better at switching simply because they have to guard so many different guys that they're just familiar with all of those guys and also the kind of tricks that they have under the sleeve. So when they try to slip a pick or when they try to run a veer screen off of a pick, there's just like a lot of thinking involved on a screen. And so having to process that all on the fly if you're a young guy or just not maybe used to your teammates or the guys you're playing can create a lot of diversions and confusion. But also the two biggest things this year that I guess

the rockets are up against and everybody is up against are one offense is taking off even more so. I think Kevin Pelton had a really good story early on when I think first three games of the season. And he was essentially saying that efficiency, regardless of any sort of rule adjustments or whatever, efficiency is up. And I think a lot of that's because of not only are there better shooters, but also the middle of the floor is obviously exposed. And I think certain teams are taking advantage of it. Biggs are stretching out to the three point line and then all of a sudden the pain is wide open. So you're getting higher percentage shots. But the big thing that everyone keeps griping about are obviously the rule reemphasis, which are.

Yeah. To take away off ball holding, essentially, pretty much in the post and off of screens. And if you are a team like the Rockets and your whole advantage is to switch, you need the physicality that some of your wings were using to get around and to combat with screens simply because that's how you get over like the size going smaller and losing size in the front court. Yeah, I mean, there's so many wrinkles here, like for this season, it seems like a perfect storm between. as you said, like the way that offenses are playing, they're playing super fast, the amount of shooting that tends to be on a floor at any given time, as you said, the rules changes, like, there's so many different. And like the way that the role of the big man has evolved and changed,

like you see somebody like Javelle McGee, who all of a sudden has presented his value this season, they're squeezing, like, you know, more minutes out of him than anybody's gotten out of him in a long time. But we've seen in previous playoffs what happens when, when you're dragging somebody like a Rudy Gobert out away from the basket and you're putting them in that pick and roll blender. And now all of a sudden they're less effective because you've got them on the perimeter and you've got them in space. And like that's not necessarily their Ballywick. And then also like all of that switching like you've heard the Lakers and Luke Walton talk about that all season long that, especially with new players that like you mentioned, who don't necessarily know each other, who are also young who once you switch now you're in a different position guarding a different player and your brain's going and you're thinking so much.

like these, it's a lot of things to process. And somehow Javel is the one that rises above all of that. Somehow it's Javel. So there's been this undercurrent, there's been little whispers in the NBA writer community about Javel as an early defensive player of the year candidate. And I'm like, that's so crazy. And then I'm like, maybe not crazy, crazy. Right.

Yeah. Apparently the defensive number is just crater when he's off the floor. I still want to see just even a competent backup. center that comes in behind him because maybe the cratering is more to the fact that Zubach is coming in and taking his minutes all of a sudden. Or you're playing Kuzum small at the five or you're playing LeBron to just suck up a couple of minutes at the five. Which is why obviously they go out and get a Tyson Chandler, like, I don't know,

how many minutes they can squeeze out of him 15 or 20 if they're absolutely lucky. But yeah, I would like to see what happens if you have somebody who could like spell him for a second and what would that defense look like. Yeah, and to your point, I think it does show the value of rim protection, even though we are all stretched out and we're at the point where team like the Rockets can run pretty much PJ Tucker as their five, as their de facto five, and Dreyman Green obviously is kind of the godfather of that. It just shows that there still is that value because the space at the rim is still high value. It's like still a, still like a territory to be

prospect. And you've seen the Pelicans when they were really taking off earlier in the season. they weren't a particularly good three-point shooting team. They have some shooters, but they push the pace, and then they would just jam it down your throat at the rim. And if you look at their success, even after bogey went down and this season when AD was healthy, I don't know if he's still healthy, they're getting a lot of shots at the rim. So there's that kind of, there's kind of that tension there where you think that everything is about three-pointers. And it is because that creates the space. But at the same time, there still is a lot to be mine from inside in the basket.

It's crazy. Like it's basketball, right? And it's like, we all love it. And we get like super into the minutia and the numbers and whatnot. But it's crazy to think about like all of the different components that go into, you know, affecting these scores and the way that defenses are deployed and how offenses are attacking. And I wonder like, so you spend all this time talking all these different people, is there a feeling across the league that like we're through the looking glass now that there's no going back,

that there won't be a regression and a correction to increased or better defense and we're just going to be playing all these games in the high, or the, you know, in the hundreds.

Yeah, I think most people expect some of the foul rates that we've seen early on to dip a little bit. Right. I think it will still end up being a high for this era

simply because they're, as Kiki Vandoah said when I talked to them for the story, their whole mission was to call more fouls off the ball and they've done that thus far.

Another Kevin Peltons, that was just that foul rates tend to decrease as the season goes on. I think officials like to send a message. Right. Points of emphasis early on. Yeah, and then everybody adjust. The players adjust, even the officials adjust. And so we might see something adjusts there. But, I mean, it's tough to see offenses really tapering off here.

I could definitely see a thing where defense kind of just catches up to a certain extent. but one of the things I touched on in the piece is just it's no longer dictating, like, play. Yeah. Simply because a lot of it is you have so many choices to make. It's tough to really leave something open because you have five shooters on the floor now and someone is going to take advantage of it.

Yeah, I mean, most teams are in the same boat. Like, if you look, I like to, you know, check in with local media and see what people are complaining about in, like, their little provinces. The local news, yeah. Yeah, I like to, right. It's always good. with the exception of, say, like, the Celtics and the bucks and, like, the Nuggets have been a surprisingly good defensive team so far.

Pretty much the complaint across the board when you look at local fan bases and local media is like, ah, they're not playing any defense this year. Like, everybody's pretty much in the same boat. Last question for you on this one. Do you like it? Do you like this? I think I do, to a certain extent. I mean, I kind of hit out in the piece. It's just who's going to complain about more points?

Yeah. And it's funny because Zach Kram has a story about Steph Curry. shooting at the rate that he was in 2015-16 when he won a unanimous MVP. And I went back and looked at some highlights from that era. It's even kind of boring for recent history. Because in comparison to now

where everybody is getting dunks at the rim and everybody's shooting threes and taking shots from like three feet out from the three-point line, it was kind of tame in comparison. And so I do wonder if this is kind of a blip in history where we won't really think about this point of emphasis that allowed for a couple more points

per game, we'll think more about it as an exciting era. Yeah, I like, I mean, just from a product consumption entertainment standpoint, which is really like, like, even though we all, again, really like the numbers and the strategy and all that stuff, ultimately for me, I'm watching basketball every night. Am I enjoying it or not? And right now, yeah, I mean, like, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, and I mean, the league is at what? Probably its best place in a very long time.

Yeah. And while... Warriors, exceptionalism aside. Right. But even still, it seems like ratings are up every year, even though the Warriors are just kind of romping to the finals, whereas the NFL obviously still the most popular sports league. But I wonder if this is a conscious play to go the opposite direction of the violence that is perhaps turning people off. Yeah, I just say, you know, just put points on the board for me and entertain me, and I'm happy. All right, so that's enough defense talk. We also did, and you stewarded this along with Danny Chow, a group post about a real or not real early season storylines.

we all like put in our different opinions. So let's go through what you and I did because we just put this post up. And you walked in and I said, I want to go through these because I'm already rethinking a bunch of these. Days later, I've decided to reverse positions. I believe in my convictions.

You're going to stick with yours. I like this. All right. The first one we had was the kings are good. You and I both had not real. Yeah, I still think that's the case. I think they're fun. And I think more importantly,

they have an identity, which they haven't had in the decade or so of lottery picks that they've been, they've compiled a historic rate. I mean, they're fast. I think when I looked it up, they were second in pace, which considering the age we're playing in, was like second since the turn of the century, because like the top eight teams in pace since the turn of the century are all this year. And so it plays to their strength. The Aaron Fox looks legitimate. Yeah, the Aaron Fox looks good. I think he might be a fringe all-star in the future. Interesting. He definitely has something to him

and his shot is coming along and that was the big issue with him. I know you talked to him last year a little bit about that. They're still not shooting threes overall. Bogdan Bogdanovich still isn't back so maybe that will help a little bit. And they're not playing defense.

What do you think happens with Heald when Bogdanovich comes back? I assume that they'll play together. If they recognize that their only way of winning is to just really just run it and then just shoot as many threes as possible, I could definitely see a Fox

healed Bogdanovich starting kind of wing rotation. Yeah, which is fun. I'd like to see how that looks. Yeah, I think, like, this is a nice story for the Kings. Ultimately, I expect them to fall out of the playoff picture. Right now, they're the only team

in the Western Conference with a winning record with an upside-down point differential. I just look at it and go, there's still the cat. And also, do they want to win right now, like, ultimately? I guess this year. Who has their pick? No, right, right.

Well, potentially, unless it's number one, and then it goes to the Sixers. It's not rule out those ping pong balls, Justin. Yeah, I guess it doesn't matter for them this year. Yeah, and they seem to have picked certain guys, too, which they hadn't done in the past. Last year was let's play everybody, including Zach Randolph and George Hill. And now it's like, I forgot about that. They're not even playing Scal.

They're not really playing Harry Giles. Bagley is coming off a bench. Harry Giles, preseason darling. I know. Harry Giles. That was a bad one for the ringer staff. But, yeah, it just seems like everything is a little bit more clear there, which makes sense because they have, yet again, a decade's worth of top talent on their roster should have.

All right. Next one. The bucks are bad. Oh, no, I'm sorry. The Rockets are bad. The Rockets are bad. The bucks are very good. We'll get to the bucks at a second.

The next one was the Rockets are bad and we both had not real. Yeah. My contention there was just that everything about this team relies on their three best guys now. It's hard in Paul and Klingkepella. they're way more top heavy than they were last year where they kind of went six or seven deep with quality guys now it's really three in PJ Tucker and then I can't even struggle to come up with their fifth best player

it might even be James Ennis who's not good it's not mellow no I was thinking no I was I was like searching my memory for who would be that guy and you're right like it's probably Eric Gordon oh yeah yeah yeah but he's hurt and like so this is all to say that like we if you build a top heavy team and Chris Paul is out with suspension and James Harden is hurt, I really want to see them working with all three of those guys to really get an accurate assessment of who they are.

To their defense from earlier, I mean, like, do we expect that? Because, you know, there's been a lot, the easy reflexive thing is to go, hey, you know, you lose a reason, hey, you lose, Bamutei, and you know, you have some issues now, right? Defensively. I still think, like, I'm hopeful for the Rockets. I think the Rockets will figure this thing out. Yeah, and they just got Jeff Busy.

Zellick back today. Which, it's the answer. It's the key. Yeah. I don't know how much a defensive coach coming midseason to save them will help, but maybe it will make a difference. I'm generally hopeful, though I could see them at a point where they have to do like a Cavs level blow it up midseason, not necessarily to their core trio, but some of their

reserve. Rebuild on the fly. Yeah. Restructure on the fly. They don't have a lot of quality players. And as we said before, that was kind of one of their advantages, especially against a team like the warriors who even during the playoffs came off as like they had four or five guys but they were constantly cycling through that center position and like was nick young going to

give them some minutes because staff wasn't totally like healthy so i think it matters more than you think so i could see them doing something to like kind of support their uh or to rejigger their supporting cast all right next one the bucks are the best team in the east we both had not real i saw the best team in the east uh on sunday right here in los angeles didn't even have Kauai Leonard. Holy shit, Justin. Are they, like, it really reinforces when you don't have a Kauai out there how deep they are. They can throw so many.

And Devine talked about this in one of his many posts after coming on shots to Ringerstaffer, or Dan Devine who's killing it. But, like, there's so many different lineups that they can throw at you. And Siakam's playing better. And Anobie looks better. And Kyle Lowry has been efficient as hell and killing it. And, yo, Abaka has been. a killer, he had a career high 34 points again,

and then matchup-wise, and you mentioned this, like, the Lakers are frequently smaller and not as good as shooters as the other team, which presents problems. Right. Yeah, if you're going to put smaller players on the floor, you generally want them to add the advantage of, like, a three-pointer. Right, quickness and shooting,

and that hasn't always been the case. But my whole point here is the Raptors are legit, like, so real. Yeah, they are everything that I think the Lakers aspire to be, which makes the whole, like, Kauai thing especially interesting. It's just they go deep, yes, they could switch, and they don't really sacrifice size. I mean, Leonard and O.G. and Inobie are pretty much they can guard anybody on the wing, and we talked about switching.

Like, those are killers on defense, and they've somehow, like, struck on all these late-round draft picks when you have a guy like Seacom, who was already playing steady minutes, was already getting reps against LeBron James in a, like, critical playoff series. Didn't do particularly well at the time. But now all of a sudden he's like blooming and now I can't think of a player on the roster that's like outright bad.

No. Which is tough. You have a guy like Jonas who you go, oh, well, we can throw him at a large body in certain matchups. And if we need him for like 15 to 20 minutes in a certain situation as a specialist, we can use him. And he's a guy who they had super high hopes for now is just this really good, useful role player in certain situations. Yeah. And the Bucks are really good. We shouldn't discount them.

This was a question about the Bucks. The Bucks are excellent. Yeah. I think my concern with the Bucks is, yeah, they even beat the Raptors when both Yannis and Kauai were sitting. But I do wonder in a playoff series if they have so many guys that you can kind of like not worry about. Like guys like Bledso, Brogden, even Brooke Lopez.

Like, are those guys really going to kill you in a playoff series? Whereas the Raptors, as we mentioned, can go very deep. But even their core five is as you. good as probably the top three teams in the league. Yeah, and I, like, with Janus, obviously, and Chris Middleton, who I think is like one of the most underrated players in the league, they have two really excellent top tier players. But yes, to your point, depth-wise, I don't think it's close with the Raptors. Okay, next one, real or not real, the Nuggets are the second best team in the West.

We both picked Not Real, reconsider. Oh, really? For me. This is a reconsider for me. initially my whole thought was the way that the question was asked, I'm picking the nuggets against the field. It's hard for me not to pick the nuggets right now. First of all, they've got nine players under 23 years old.

They're the second youngest team in the NBA. They're playing out of their heads. The Joker looks fantastic. They're going to be an issue for a second. Yeah, and they've definitely shown how valuable Paul Millsap is, even though offensively he's kind of non-existent at times, but the numbers with him on the floor versus with him off the floor are incredible. He's essentially the Javelle McGee of the mountains.

I don't know. I'm not totally sold yet. I think I don't... What's your reservation? I think Yokish, it takes a lot of imagination to picture him as like your go-to-crunched. The number one all the way. Superstar, killer in a certain situation. And maybe that's just my own like blind spot because he is such a like unique unicorn,

even, he's like a subset within the unicorns. Right. Just like, unique even as unicorns go. Yeah, exactly. And also like Jamal Murray, pretty erratic. And if those guys aren't your guys, then like, it's kind of like, I don't know where you're turning to. I like the length.

I like the switchability that Will Barton isn't even playing for them right now. They're going to add him back in. He's also another guy like a Chris Middleton who's super underrated on the wing that you could do a lot of different things with. I just have been pleasantly surprised with the nuggets and how consistent they've been like just put it on on everybody. I mean, like, every time they go out there, I'm like, okay, this could be a tough spot for them. And then they've just acquitted themselves really well.

And at some point, you have to believe what's in front of you. And what I've seen is them winning every night. Yeah. I still have hope for the jazz. I think that they've fallen on some tough times to start with, but the schedule has been a little hard. Same thing happened last year with Gobert was hurt, though, last year twice. The second time he came back, they really like supercharged. And also, Rubio is like a.

he's an inconsistent player to begin with but he tends to be super inconsistent and slow to start Ingles has been a little slow so far but I'm with you I think they could get off to fixing that All right next one here

Real or not real Luca has been the most impressive rookie We both had real Yeah I saw him in person When he played against the Lakers Last week It's just like a calm to his game That I think is impressive

And I think even statistically He's on he's a like historic like numbers. I forgot what it was that he has. I think it's like 19, 6 and 4. And it was just, I think there was like six players in history or seven players in history that have had those sort of numbers and it was like all Hall of Famers. And he's shooting threes, which those guys didn't do. And at that time, I think he was shooting around 40%. There's just, he has a command of the court that's kind of beyond his years. And I think when DeAndre Jordan allows him to get rebounds, I think he's a complete player. What you just said about the calm,

to his game initially when I was watching him in the preseason and early and even like watching YouTube stuff from when he was playing in Europe I took the calm as sort of slow or considered or like he is a little doughy and like all of that all of that like kind of like fucks with my brain yeah and then I look at him playing

I'm like oh the results are great like he gets to a spot it doesn't look like he's not going to be able to but he does he's a good passer he as you said he's shooting the three And I look at him athletically and like it's hard for my brain to reconcile like what I'm seeing and then like the information that I'm getting statwise later. But it all sort of works and he just makes these crafty plays and it's it's been fun to watch. Yeah, he makes an appropriate successor to Dirk because he has that sort of like cerebral. I don't know how he gets the space, but he gets it. 100%.

Yeah. Dad game. I'm really on it. Last one for you. Real or not real. LeBron will finish out. of the playoffs, we both had not real. Although, like, I'm wavering.

Or you said not, not real. Yeah, I'm wavering on this one. I think that they will, I think LeBron Trump card, as I believe you kind of brought up, is, it's really hard to argue with. At the same time, I just think it's not going to get any easier from here. Like, not only did they not do themselves any sort of advantages by, like, getting ahead in the schedule or ahead of the standings, they're, what, four and six right now? So they have to dig themselves out of a hole.

but playing at this pace, having smaller guys guard, bigger guys, having LeBron and Rondo and McGee and Lance, these kind of veteran guys, put up a lot of miles at a high pace. Like, those things start to add up. And if Ron is going to keep coasting

for the next month or two, like he typically does, like I think they're going to get into some trouble. On a back-to-back, fighting back into a game where they're getting blown out, didn't come back into the game and Luke was asked about it.

They cut it to, like, they were getting blown out, obviously by the Raptors, and then all of a sudden, like, they did what teams do, and they, you know, emptied the bench and they went on a run. And they got it close enough where I was, like, waiting for them to check LeBron back in. And I think they had it to, like, 10 with two left. And you're like, this is not out of the rumble possibility. Didn't check him back in. So, I mean, you do have, he has a lot of miles on him. Yeah. So I understand that component. For me, yeah, it goes back to the LeBron Trump card, right? Where he hasn't missed the playoffs since the

2004-5 season, which was his second season in the league. He was 20 years old. He's 33. He's going to be 34 in December. He just makes the playoffs. Yeah. But at the same time, like, you saw what happened when they lost Brandon Ingram. Like, they're really, they're deep in terms of like, of averageness. They have a lot of average guys. So maybe that's enough. And maybe like a Tyson Chandler mid-season edition, like these type of guys will come in and help play some minutes. I'm smirking as you say Tyson Chandler, because I'm like, oh, is that, is that, is that, that's going to be what buoys them? If Javail is now, like,

I believe anything. Why not? Yeah, but it's just like if they start to lose some of these guys, I don't know, it's going to be a lot tougher than I think anybody thought from the outset. I am prepared mentally for LeBron not to be in the finals for the first time in quite some time. I'm not prepared mentally for him

to miss the playoffs. I'm going to stick with my prediction on that way and say he makes it. Justin Verrier, you can read his excellent defensive piece on the ringer.com. You can listen to him on Thursdays, on group chat. Do you have any other massive projects in the works that we need to know about? I am looking for some furniture for my apartment. That is a big undertaking.

Get it Justin on Twitter if you do. Verrier, thank you. Thanks, guys. All right, that was Justin Verrier. I can't believe, Isaac, I had a whole thing about his piece that I wanted to talk to him about. And I forgot to mention the greatest thing in his piece, and it was a very excellent story. I keep saying this, but it's true. The greatest thing in his piece was a quote given by David,

Griffin about his time when he was in Phoenix. I have to read this quote. Can we just fit this in here? Yeah, yeah. I was wondering where are you going to get to it. I'm going to read this quote. So David Griffin, when he was the son's former vice president of basketball ops, gave this quote about Jerry Colangelo. And he said, we had a built in advantage because Jerry Colangelo was the chairman of the board. We knew from the very beginning what was likely to come about. So we were able to plan for longer than anybody else. If you told Darrell Mori right now that three years from now, the cap is going to be. a number that only he knows. Houston's going to have a pretty big advantage. We were able to build a team that's pretty ahead of the curve, basically saying Jerry Colangelo was insider trading. Woof. Amazing.

Incredible quote. I can't believe he actually said that on the record. He said it on the record. I can't believe I forgot to bring it up. It was great. And it's been the talk of the league. I can't tell you how many different people from executives to agents to players that I've talked to media members that have been like,

oh, did you see that quote? Very interesting. Great scoop by very. Great scoop by barrier. Check that out. Next up, Haley O'Shaughnessy. All right, joining me in the studio, staff writer, extraordinaire, Haley O'Shaughnessy. You listen to her in group chat, read all her excellent stuff.

Saw you on Sunday night at the Lakers Raptors. It was like Ringer Night Out. It was you and me and Palo Esco blog. It was a fun night for us. Not so fun for the Lakers. Less fun for them. But so I saw you and I said, Haley, you've been killing it. You've written a bunch of really excellent stories for The Ringer.

We have a lot of wonderful content on the Ringer period. But you in particular have been on a fantastic run, beginning with your Hassan Whiteside story, which we already talked about in the past. But we're going to just run through some of the stories that you've done recently. Man, you're making me blush all over again. I'm not lying. This isn't just me pumping you up to pump you up. They're really good.

I recommend everybody go and read these things. How much is Chris Ryan paying you? All of the money. I make so much money for the... I parked my Ben's in the parking garage. Chris Ryan has Ben's money? I valeted. It was amazing. So Derek Rose had 50-point game last week in a win over the jazz, and there was this rush to pump up Derek Rose. It was a redemption story, and a lot of other media outlets did not mention some of the more problematic things that have happened in Derek Rose's past. You, however, did make mention in 2016 of Rose, then part of the Knicks facing a civil trial for sexual battery and other claims for an alleged incident in 2013. And like I said, there were just a ton of stories around the NBA and the greater NBA community that's just sort of skipped over completely

or glossed over that component. And I wonder why that is. Like, I wonder why we sometimes skip that stuff. I think that maybe for some people, it's not quite as uncomfortable to skip over, if that makes sense. It's something that is obviously... Like, just focus on the basketball. We'll just look at the numbers and the storylines, right? And especially in the Minnesota broadcast, I think that there is definitely this idea now in 2018 that you have to mention it. And they did after the game, but it was a very messy way of mentioning it. They kind of said in passing that he had some off-the-court struggles and that I think Jim Peterson, the Wolves broadcaster, said that he's no judge or jury. But there is this need now, I think, that people think they need to address it.

But I would also say that maybe if you're not qualified to address it, you shouldn't. But with that being said in a written piece, I don't think it's okay to gloss over something that is part of his comeback because he's very much still coming back from that, even if we often paint comebacks as positive things. Right. And he has his knee injuries, everything he's gone through, but you can't just ignore that he's also coming back from a stain on his resume as well. Yeah, I think that there has been maybe now in 2018 with like the cultural and societal shift towards me too and talking about these things and like really discussing them. There's been more of a willingness to discuss certain topics that can be uncomfortable and

that people had previously glossed over. Like for years and years and years and still, really, say with Kobe, that was never part of the narrative. Well, and now still, it's not cemented in history because it wasn't addressed the same at the time. And so now when you think about Kobe, when we talk about Kobe, it doesn't come up. And that's often something that, I mean, even the replies to this piece, that...

Yeah, what kind of feedback did you get at? You know, honestly, my inbox was filled with people who were really upset with me, and then it was also filled with sexual assault survivors. So it was completely different ends of the spectrum, yeah. And maybe a lot of this is, like, what Peterson was saying on the broadcast is kind of performative. We know we have to address it now or you'll get in trouble. Right. But that's still not really doing the job.

It felt like obligatory and we're going to, you know, touch on this because you... Because we have to. we'll get criticized if we don't. There's an expectation, but then immediately, let's just pivot to, hey, he scored 50 points and isn't that cool? Right, right. And then it's interesting because, I mean, honestly, when Danny Chow, who's editing me for this piece, when we were talking about it, we thought, okay, if he is going to continue to be relevant for the wolves at this level, obviously not the level of a 50-point game every night or even probably for the rest of the season or however long he stays on, you're going to have to figure out a way to cover him. And I think that that's where it's just important to provide context. Well, you did an excellent job of that.

I highly recommend everybody reads the Derek Rose piece. I want to talk about some of the other pieces also that you wrote about. You wrote about DeRosen as a potential MVP Dark Horse. This was far more fun to write about. We had to address all of these stories. It's been such a joy from the season. So I didn't anticipate liking Damar as much as I have so far. And I didn't anticipate the San Antonio Spurs with DeRoson and Marcus.

soldiers at the center, getting off to an over 500 start. There's six and three at the time of this recording. And DeMarre's played well. It's interesting because in the past, I think that maybe just because of what the Raptors needed from him and kind of wanted from a franchise player in terms of being an efficient shooter, they're trying to push their offense into a more modern offense that shoots threes and has their most important player capable of shooting threes. And we saw that last year.

it was kind of frustrating to watch him in that because he's the guy who keeps pulling up from the mid-range who's not a super efficient score in terms of he's making the basket that's most likely to go in. But, I mean, on San Antonio, it's just like thrilling again. It makes me think of like when I, you know, when my dad and I would start watching basketball,

everyone was pulling up from mid-range. It's exciting, yeah. Well, I love the pops just like, yeah, you know, if you're going to zig and we decide to zag, so what? His quote was, you don't take threes just because somebody else takes threes. And they've basically given Damar license to be Damar. Like, just play your game and we'll figure out how it works out.

And so far, it's worked out pretty well. In fact, he had a couple of big shots this year when he gave a quote that was, I wasn't going to miss a big shot later in the game. And I didn't. And you called him a hear for that, which I thought was hilarious. As outside. Well, no, so this is how the game ended. He took a mid-range shot to end regulation.

Right. Well, not to end regulation, but he could have won the game. They were ahead at that time, and then it was evened up, had to go into overtime. So he takes that shot, and he misses. And then that's where that quote came into his mind. He was like, well, if I'm going to take it again, I'm not going to miss it. So then he takes a similar shot in overtime, but he wins it. I mean...

You got to respect that confidence. Everything about DeMar's game, I don't want to like. and I don't want to like the spurs. Apologies to Shea Serrano. I don't want to like the spurs because of the brand of basketball that they're playing. It's a little weird for me to watch this team just like, you know, play in the mid-range and play defense and whatever, especially when it wasn't that long ago that they sort of like jump-started them, move the ball around, whip it around the perimeter, you know, take great shots,

shoot a lot of threes. Like they're at the forefront of that when they were challenging for championships and winning them. And now all of a sudden it's sort of like regressed a little bit. and it's somehow working. And that's why when I saw your Demar as an MVP Dark Horse candidate, I knew what you were doing. And I was like, none of this makes any sense. This whole season doesn't make any sense.

It kind of does make sense in the sense that DeMar is not directly pushing the spurs to a modern offense, but he is indirectly because now he's using those playmaking skills that he did show in Toronto last year, but to such a higher degree. and what that does is it opens up their players on the perimeter. Pop knows that he has to shoot threes. But he's also shooting, like they're creating some of the best shots. And like they are still getting to the line. It is as efficient as an inefficient shooting team can be, if that makes sense.

And so that's why he's definitely someone that's going to be fun to cheer for. Even though I mean, when I say Dark Horse, I mean that he is a dark horse or could be a dark horse candidate that we're not just saying he could be. a dark horse candidate. He actually could be because he's always the guy who were like, well, wouldn't that be fun? He has the potential to maybe probably sometime, if he keeps this up, be a dark horse. But this year, maybe we can just cut out all those adjectives. I took Dark Horse to mean he has no shot, but it's fun to think about. Right. That's how I'm taking it. Right. All right. Next one, you did a piece about Embed.

Embeddied had said, for those who are uninitiated, he had played against Andre Drummond. They have a long history together. He had said that he owns real estate. in Andre Drummond's head, which was... Which is just such an amazing quote. It's such an Embed quote. It's such an Embed thing to say. And then recently he played Andre Drummond again. And afterwards, he put on Instagram mood and it was like dancing around and enjoying

himself after Andre Drummond. But you took that thing and you just ran with it. And I thought it was such a fun idea. You basically did like a Zillow tour through the NBA of all the real estate that Embed owns in various players' heads. And I just outlined a couple of them here and we'll go. I throw him. You have him owning a penthouse suite and Hassan Whiteside's cerebral. Okay. My favorite thing that he's ever said to Whiteside was your plus minus was ass.

It's very imbid. It's very imbid. I love how much he talks. Like I saw him over the summer when he was out here in Los Angeles, getting in work with a bunch of those guys that they all have the same trainer. So Jason Tatum was there and Clarkson and Myers Leonard. And bless Myers-Lennard. And bless Myers Leonard's heart. Myers Leonard likes to talk a little bit and he likes to compete but he's Myers Leonard and he's not Joelle Ambide and Joe Ambide just whipped him up and down

the court all day long and it was like he was playing in the playoffs. He loves to talk even in a gym where nobody's watching in the summer in a pickup game that doesn't count. I don't think people that talk like Joel does can control it. Can't. Yeah. Look at his

I mean if... I would love to play like Domino's with him. If it's social, you You play Domino's? Well, I would would be... Oh, you would learn. Okay, I would like to play spades or something like that.

But just like if his social media is any reflection of, like, what's happening with him, you know, when the cameras are off and we don't see him, like, yeah, he can't turn it off. And that's part of what makes him amazing. Well, he chooses not to turn it off.

Choose his not to. Yeah, I mean, everything, like on his Instagram. And granted, that is, you're choosing what you put out there. But I just have, I mean, there's no doubt in my mind. I love it. So blunt about everything.

everything. Even when, even with the Calangelo situation, like he just completely addressed it. Yeah. I mean, he has no fear. He doesn't shy away from things. He goes directly towards him. Another one that you had, you have him owning a townhouse in Kat's temporal lobe. Well, I think this is almost unfair because this is probably one of the most one-sided ones on the entire list because Kat has never done anything against him being comparable to what Bede's done to Cat. I like that. But Cat, I think, like, that's the kind of player that would mess with Cat a little bit.

I mean, he's, Cat basically has a version of Joelle and Bede on his own team that he's dealing with in Jimmy Butler, right? Like, he's got a guy who's yapping at him all the time and, like. And he's not very responsive to him. He doesn't really deal with that great. So I could see how that would get to him. All right. Last one before we move on to the next one.

A Haunted House and Russ's prefrontal cortex. I think of all the players that he, that are on this little. that he's been shit talking to for some time. Russ is probably the most mentally on his level. Oh, yeah. Intensity-wise. They're great for each other. Everything he ever did during the stint after Kevin Durant, from the like photography outfit to the cupcake mention.

Some of it was so deep that I was wondering if we were making it up. But I don't think we're making it up. And that's a compliment to Russell Westbrook. One more, one more about Embed in the real estate he owns. You have him owning two bedrooms in an, up-and-coming neighborhood in rookies DeAndre Aden and Mo Bamba's cerebellums, which I thought was great.

You're putting them on notice. Get ready. He's moving into your neighborhood. I think that for these ones, I'm almost worried it's not going to materialize into anything because they need to get better first. Yeah. I'm not saying they're not good.

It's, we're like 10 games in here. They've got to give them a second. They're going to be fine. Yeah, I like both of those guys. I think they're going to be fun. All right. Last thing I wanted to discuss with you, you did a story about what it takes to be a good teammate for LeBron James.

I think this is entertaining. It's funny. And it's also... This was so much fun to report. Also of a moment right now because the Lakers could use a little advice. So one of the things that we have here, I just took out a couple. I won't go through all of them. I would encourage everybody to go and read it on the ringer.com.

But a couple of the ones that I liked. Be a Dwayne, not a Dian. This quote was amazing when Haywood said it to me. Okay, so I talked to Brendan Haywood, Carlos Boozer, and Richard Jefferson. So Brendan Haywood only played with LeBron in 2014-15. He was in Cleveland, but he only played like 22 games, and he averaged like five minutes. But he's been around so long that he's actually talked to other people throughout his career. So Beaduane, not a Dion, was him basically telling Dion waiters,

look, you are used to having the ball in your hands a lot. But it's not going to be your team anymore now the LeBron's back. It's going, you're going to have to figure out how to play with him, how to play with Kyrie, how to pay with Kevin Love. And the direct quote is, and he didn't, and he didn't really want to hear that. And that's part of why he was traded very early in the season. And when he said that I gas, I was like, I can't believe you would really say that to me. But he also said that when he was with the Mavericks, he talked to Dwayne Wade, and obviously LeBron was at the heat then. It was after they lost the Mavericks.

And Wade was like, well, I'm going to have to change my game. Like, that's the only way we're going to win. And so what he's saying is be a Dwayne, not a D. I like it. Sometimes you have to say no to Rihanna. This is also Haywood, who is a great interview. He's a great quote. He's on serious NBA all the time, and he's hilarious.

He's very funny. But he said, you have to understand that there's a time to have fun and party and play, and there's a time to be serious. You have to understand that you might be invited to a party that Rihanna's at, but you can't go because you guys have a back-to-back coming up. Now, I'm not an NBA player, but I might argue against him. You would go to see Rihanna. I mean, if Rihanna's at a party, there's going to be plenty of back-to-backs in your future.

How many times you get to go and party with Rihanna? Although I will say that this is another thing that they mentioned is all the additional media and scrutiny and everything. And everyone's going to know that you went to that party. And then that's probably leading to you getting traded if your stats aren't and performance are not on par. Good chance of you getting traded anyway. LeBron's teams tend to have a lot of turnover. You mentioned the media, the last one I wanted to bring up about how to be a good team at for LeBron James. Be prepared for no questions to be about you.

This one made me laugh because as a member of the media, not to say that I don't ask questions of the other players about the other players. I do. But, and that's a big butt all capitals, huge caveat here. When you have a LeBron team, it's always about LeBron. Even the questions that are asked about the other players are in context from LeBron. Yeah, it's like, well, I'm going to ask about the other players, but it's really only as it relates to LeBron. Which, honestly, I can't blame anyone. So how do players, or when you were talking to these guys, like, I would imagine that certain players process that better than others.

Sure. Guys like Kyle Corver and Kevin Love knew what the deal was and they were cool with it. Guys like Dion Waiters, probably not as cool with it. Probably not. Richard Jefferson was an interesting in the middle, and he's the one who even brought that up, and he was saying that he'd be asked about LeBron's amazing pass. And he basically said reporters would just say, so what do you think about that past? That was amazing, right? And he was like, yep, you know, I play with Jason Kidd for many seasons. So I think that that that was, it's processed differently. I think that probably when you're older, you're used to it a little bit more, even if you hadn't played with him a ton previously, that like, this is what people care. about. And if you just acknowledge it and kind of move on, it's going to be a lot easier. Go with the flow. Don't get your backup about it. I think that's probably the best way to go about it. Haley, O'Shaunice, those are excellent pieces. Make sure to read all of those. How many more do you have coming out this week? Like 12, 15 more pieces. You're constantly cranking out content. Is there anything

you want to preview and plug? I've got a bunch of drafts in my Twitter. So look out for those. We're going to be firing away my tweets that I've always wanted to send. And listen to group chat on Thursday. And there'll be stories. She's being very secretive right now. I like the way that you're playing this. The people will have to go and find your content. You're not giving it away for free here. I'm doing an exosan, Gons.

That would not get very many clicks. That would be terrible for the website. But we'll check it out. We want to thank Haley O'Shaughnessy for being on the program. I want to thank Varyer and Juliet. I want to encourage everybody to rate and review the NBA show on Apple or wherever you get your fine podcasts. And of course, the NBA show is here. here every day. We've got heat check on Mondays, the mismatch on Tuesdays. Sources say on Wednesdays,

group chat on Thursdays and corner three on Fridays. Check out all of those. I want to thank everybody for listening, gang. We'll be back next Monday. Bye.