The Ringer NBA Show - The LeBron Sweepstakes. Plus, Analytics in the NBA. | Real Ones

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Logan is joined by Michael Pina in the latest edition of Real Ones, and they dive right into LeBron’s free agency. Where might the King take his talents? Where do we want to see him end up? What place does analytics have in the NBA following the Jaylen Brown trade and the discussion of Brown not being an analytics darling? How will the Jaylen Brown trade play out for both the Celtics and Sixers? (00:00) Intro (1:33) Should the Lakers have kept Lebron? (12:30) Jaylen Brown and analytics across the NBA(24:43) Ja Morant's resurgence(33:26) Potential disaster for the Sixers?(43:02) Predictions Host: Logan Murdock Guest: Michael Pina Producers: Logan Murdock, Clifford Augustin, Conor Nevins, and Ben Cruz Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Michael Pena in a second. Very special guest. We got Raja and Howard out for today. So we went into the ball pin. And we got front of the shelf, Michael Pena.

We basically asked the biggest questions going into free agency. And then we asked the biggest questions of free agency, tried to answer them, even did some little predictions, way too early predictions for next season. It was a fun episode. Myself, Michael Pina, Real Ones, Up Next, Cliff, Victoria. Play the theme music. What's popping real ones? Logan Murdoch here.

Michael Pina there, man. Very great summer addition to real ones. How you doing, brother? I'm doing great, man. How are you, Logan? I'm kicking. I'm here. I'm slow motion with the potion.

I'm trying to get to the ocean. Everybody know. But we got you here because we want to ask the biggest questions of free agency. The biggest questions that I have drawn up in a stream of consciousness. So you ready to go? I'm going to press shuffle and just go. through him. You ready to go? Beautiful. I cannot wait.

I bet. First question that I have. Based on the circumstances that we have seen and all the breaking news that we have seen, should the Lakers or should the Lakers have not kept LeBron James? I do not think that they should have kept him. I think that this was the opportunity where you had to break free. You had to do it amicably if possible and they succeeded. in doing that. And you had to pivot

towards building around Luca and Austin Reeves. And so from that perspective right there, like, Grand Slam did the job. Pretty much everything that's happened after that has been somewhat of a disaster, I feel like. And,

you know, the fact that they've spent $460 million or whatever it is on no one who will ever make an all-star team. Maybe Austin Reeves will, I should say. But you spend all that money, you give away all of your draft capital and the end result is what? Like, are we ever going to win the West with this? I don't, I don't see it. But that's my question to you, though. That's my question to you. I think that, like, if I have, if I knew what was on the table, if I'm the Lakers right now, I'm going to, I'm going to keep LeBron James with the

hubris and all of that. I think that that's what you do. right? Like if you're to Los Angeles, like if you know that there isn't anybody out there that is going to replace said LeBron James or replace said Rui Hachamora, I'm just saying, man, if you're going to spend that much money for Walker Kessler, you're going to spend LeBron money for Waster Custler, I think that's a dying proposition. I'm not going to do that. I don't, like if that's what, but that's my question to you. Do you, if you knew what you were going to get in the long term, are you going to keep, might as well just keep LeBron James, right? if I knew I was going to get Mamu and Quentin Grimes and Walker Kessler and he's going to cost me two firsts and I'm going to have to pay him $30 million this year then yeah I think my calculus could change a little bit maybe like LeBron for one more season I just like philosophically though I just think that you had to at some point I know that they finished last year really well down the stretch LeBron found that new role um muted a little bit and it worked and, you know, I don't know.

It's a tough situation for them. It's very awkward and philosophically I would have moved on from Luca. But if you're asking me, like, am I happy with what has happened? No, if I'm the Lakers, I'm not happy at all. I think that this is like kind of terrible. The other thing that just fascinates me about, like, LeBron is just like the spectacle of the free agency after all of these years, right? where you're, in essence, he is a great older type of player that, you know, it can fit within a

role on your team, but we're having the white boy, we're having all of these things. I think the biggest thing that I come away with that is with the spectacle is like, what do you need to lure LeBron in this day and age and what do you think you should like need to lure him? Like, does it need to be all of these pitch decks and tribute videos and, you know, draft capital or like, why are these teams doing this at this particular moment? Do they need to? Yeah, I think it's a, the question is like,

what situation would LeBron turn a pretty good team to a champion? And I see a couple options here where that makes sense. But they are very few and far in between in terms of like the, on the scale of the importance of this decision that he's making. Like, if he were to pick Cleveland, I don't think Cleveland's going to win the championship. And I don't even think that they would, I just don't see that happening based on,

you bring LeBron, you bring Hardin, Donovan Mitchell signed his contract, etc. But I just don't see that they lost some depth pieces. I just don't see it. Denver, different situation potentially. But at the same time, I'm like, I want to see the rest of that roster Is that mean we're losing Peyton Watson?

Are we still cutting salary with Cam Johnson or Christian Brown? Like, what are we doing there? So I guess like, if you were to ask me, like, where would LeBron go? And then like the Warriors, I'm sorry, like, they're not winning the championship if he goes there. I think, I don't think he's going to the Warriors.

I never really thought he was going to go to the Warriors. I don't either. They were both a leverage play and the warriors are interesting because on one hand they do have all the remnants of a pre-retirement home for him, right? When you actually look at it

and that's what they were kind of selling him. But I think what they forgot about is like LeBron wants to compete and the way that you show LeBron or any free agent that you're willing to compete is by actually making moves outside of just like a wish and a prayer

that we get this superstar. And I think that that's kind of been there Achilles Hill over the last five, six years, right? Or like at least the post Bob Myers era where, you have things being done. There's a lot of wait and see with this front office in a way that you can't really attract anybody at this day and age. It's like, hey, do you want to play with 38-year-old Steph and then Draymond? And I don't think, I think the calculation that people have in the building is different

from calculation that you have league-wide, which is, yeah, man. it's cool i love them i think they're game they revolutionized the game but like what else is there like what other what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what else are you going to build this roster it's not bringing back al horford and bringing melts and that's not expiring confidence in anything and anyone 100% you know what i mean that's my words take i i appreciate that take i agree with it and i think that that's why he will not go there um but it's at the same time it's like how many situations can you name where it's like we're adding LeBron so that means

by just adding LeBron we are either the favorites or we can puff our chest out there and be like we can win this whole thing and I think that the teams that can say that are already awesome like the San Antonio Spurs at LeBron and

you're incredible and you can easily win the NBA championship and these aren't like realistic deskses nations like the Oklahoma City Thunder at LaBron so I like I don't think that him going to the Minnesota Timberwolves is transforming Minnesota and making them a team that can win the championship based on how that roster is constructed right now what like am I am I underselling love I don't mean to be disrespectful to LeBron but like I just I think what you're seeing right now like there's a there's two sides of this there is what his representation is

actually putting out there in terms of like the made for timeline made for TV type of stuff versus whatever the actual plan is right like I think that they're what lebron has showed us over the years is that he has to have some sort of spectacle with whatever he does like even something mundane is playing golf right and so what i'm seeing is like there is a real urge to matter from him which can be annoying on one hand, but it's just like, dude, like, just make, I think it's getting to a point where it's like, dude, just make your decision, man.

Like, in a lot of ways, the league is starting to pass this generation by, right? Because, like, the thing is, I don't believe any of those, maybe the Cavs, but, like, the way the Cavs are constructed, like, I don't believe in the Cavs as a championship contender. But, like, maybe they have the best chance

of getting to the Eastern Conference finals, right? But short of that, like, I don't see another team that he can, go to that is just going to win the title because he's on there. And because of that, it's like, well, let's worry about these other teams. Let's put that worry towards other teams that are actually going to win the title. We're like, I want to pay more attention to the Spurs now. I want to pay more attention to other things more non-Bron related. And I think that's, that's something that LeBron and his representation is kind of going through right now where it's like, this is like the last

big hurrah where they matter on this scale, where everything that they say, matters on a certain scale until they retire and it's not really going to matter as much, right? And you start to see a lot of people from this generation who are now kind of making themselves a part of the story and using the lead to do that. And I feel like this is this LeBron's turn to do that. You see that with Draymond. You see that with just a lot of like people that are podcasting on the way out of the league. And I think that this is like LeBron's last like huge moment to take advantage of the attention.

and he's just soaking and basking in that. It's a headline grab for real. And kudos to him to be able to do it at 41, turning 42 years old this season. Let me ask you this. What is the best team for him? Where do you want to see him play? What do I want to see him play? I think I want to see him play in Denver, honestly.

I just want to see him play alongside Yokic. Logan, that is objectively the, correct answer. So I just thank you. I appreciate you there. But like I think it would give him the opportunity to actually win, you know, and actually be in the conversation one last time, truly. Um, I think that all the other teams in Eastern Conference that he's linked to are like inherently flawed, right? Like I don't like Miami, I think they have, I think this their roster is just flawed, right? They need to get a little bit of shooting, but. A little bit. And I think they need to get a little bit of shooting. Um, but they're well coached, right? Like,

I'm not betting a good spolster to do something to figure it out. And I think they would be one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. But I think they're so fatally flawed that I don't know if they could win in a postseason setting. And then Cleveland, I'm not betting on James Hardin and Donovan Mitchell to bring you home in a playoff series. I just can't. I literally can't do that. And I don't even look Brock can overcome that. So that being said, let's, you know, if you want to compete with the OKC's in the San Antonio's, I think that Denver gives you the best shot.

I think that's like the best answer for basketball. That's the best answer for like just the league. I think having Denver be a little bit more formidable. I know I said the other thing about we'll see what they do with their salary cap situation and how they deal with the luxury tax and the repeater tax and all that. But if they were actually to bring everybody back and add LeBron and stay healthy, like that's a team that can definitely win the NBA championship. So we'll see.

I think that that would be fun. Let's, I got to add another question for you. What does a discourse around Jalen Brown, the trade of Jalen Brown, say about the analytics movement in Hoop? Let's have a philosophical conversation with no notes. I think that the word analytics is completely useless at this point. and most of the people who use it to paint this extremely broad brush don't know exactly what they're saying. I think like analytics, when people say, I'm like,

what do you mean? Are you talking about his true shooting percentage? Are you talking about his on-off numbers? Are you talking about his estimated plus minus? Like, what are you talking about when you say his analytics are bad. It doesn't make, it like doesn't make sense. So to me, that's the most frustrating thing is someone who, like, I love looking at numbers and stats and data points to inform what my eyes are seeing and telling me as I watch basketball. And I think that that's the whole point

of statistics, right? Like, anyone who just uses statistics is missing something. Anyone who ignores statistics is missing something. So you want to blend these two things together. And I think Jalen is just this really interesting test case where people are going way too far in one direction thinking that, oh, the analytics say this, so he's bad. The Celtics are better when he's off the court, so that means he stinks. It's like, well, that is a deranged opinion. He's not the seventh best player on any team in the NBA. He's not the 50th best player in the league. Like, these are silly, stupid things that people are saying. And they're, they're, they're these opinions are coming from people who are in, you know, analytics departments.

And I just think it's like gone off the rails. And if you say analytics, I need you to be more specific is generally how I feel based on everything that's being said about Jalen Brown right now. I think that analytics and numbers can say whatever you want them to say in a given moment. And I think that that's what we're seeing during this process, right? And like, even with, it's funny because like, even within the leaks of the analytics that we do get, right, from at least the Boston side. And I don't want anyone to tell me like, oh, Boston isn't talking behind the scenes on Jalen Brown. They absolutely have been. And even Brad Stevens, I'm not going to say that he himself has been like leaking to people, but people within his department have definitely been out here throwing these leaks to people around the league.

And I think what like I think about the Bobby Marks thing, I'm thinking about the Tom Habistro who as a person, they're like I do love. And I think we both do love Tom Habistro. But what I'm like, the leaks that do come through there are one thing that I want from our media members to do is cipher out information a lot better than we are because me and you go to arenas all the time. How much dumb shit do you hear from people that want to tell you that have legitimate. Dobbs in the league that want to use analytics or use any type of thing to tell you something bad about a player that they don't like, right? And I think that's what you're seeing with the Boston Celtics right now, which is they say one thing publicly. And then privately, they're saying a completely different thing, right? Like I remember, you've written about Jalen before. I've written about Jalen before. I've gotten Stevens on the record talking about, hey, man, you know, he's what I had a real conversation. This was after the, um, This was after the Kevin Durant trade rumors where, and it was that spring afterwards. And he was telling me about a conversation that he had with Tatum and Brown.

And basically he wanted to tell Jalen Brown, no, this isn't happening. No, this isn't happening. And clearly it was happening. You don't like this person. They have told you time and time again. And I know this is a conversation about analytics, but a quick side note, that's what made me really frustrated.

with the Brad Stevens, you know, press conference was it was like, not to say like you were lying in our face, but it was more of like, it's not what you think it is when all of your actions show this is what you think it is and how you feel about Jalen Brown. And how that goes back to the analytics was I feel like, you know, people were leaking analytical things to writers about how they actually feel about Jalen Brown as a person. Right. And I think you saw that through with just like this nonsensical taste. If somebody tells you, that Jalen Brown is the seventh best player on your team, that's not something worth repeating. Like, I'm sorry. I don't know. I don't care. Call that person's boss. Yeah. Or just be like, I'm not going to listen to it.

I'm not going to listen to that. Like, I'm not even going to put that in the ether at all, right? And even just like, it's been used to say nonsensical things about a player they don't like. Like, Peyton Pritcher is going to make a Jalen Brunson leap. Like, that just, like, if he was going to be. going to do that, he would have done that. Derek White, if he was going to be Jalen Brown, he would have been Jalen Brown. Right.

So, like, that's what I want as a basketball community for us to get better at. It's just like, I know that we're here for clicks and I know that we're here to, you know, see our name over there on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, do it in a smarter way. That's what I think this Jalen Brown fiasco has taught me, is that we don't have to do it this way. Yeah, and I think that

this could have been a really smart conversation, because it's a fascinating one. Jalen Brown's a fascinating player. It is true that there are a ton of impact metrics that are like, this guy isn't good, okay? And it's true that

he's never been particularly efficient. And it's true that his assist to turnover ratio is never been impressive and he's never been a particularly great passer and he takes tough shots and he sabotages possessions. But the other thing is he's a winner though, but he's a winner, bro. Like, you know what I'm saying? That's the biggest metric here, right? He's a fucking winner. Yeah, that's why it's a very complicated discussion. I mean, the guy won finals MVP. He's won more games than he went since entering the league. He was second team all NBA this year. He was sixth for

MVP. Like, that stuff doesn't happen by accident, right? So you're toggling between these two things. and then hanging over this is the second apron and the ape, I should say the apron era. And the fact that paying two guys, 35% of the cap is something that no team in the league does that, except the Golden State Warriors with Jimmy Butler and Steph Curry. Like there was no other team that was doing that. We've already established that they are in a completely other generation of past altogether.

They're not even thinking about the now and how to figure out stuff now. Yes. So no one wants to be like mimic the warriors right now. No one wants that. So like they're in a tough spot. So if you're the Celtics and you look at the last two teams that won the NBA championship, right? And this is something that I'm echoing that Brad kind of said in his presser where it's like, okay, you have the thunder they win. They had a ton of depth.

They had Shay making 30% of the cap. And then they had like no one else even close to that in terms of high level contributors like Jalen Williams. and Chad Holmgren, who had not signed their max deals yet, or not had their max deals kick in yet, right? Last year you have, or this year, you have the Knicks, and you have this very strange situation where their best player takes a massive pay cut, and he's the third highest paid player on the team.

He makes less money than Carl Anthony Towns who's the only guy who makes 35% of the cap, and then you have OG and N and Obie making more than him. And by the way, that's going to continue up until this season. Like next season, Jalen Brunson will be the third highest paid player on the team. That's remarkable and that's not really repeatable. Like, no one's going to be doing that. So, and you look at the Knicks and it's like, well, the Knicks,

they're busting up right against the second apron even still. And they just lost their backup center who was critical to them in their playoff on their finals run. And they lost them to the Celtics. So it's just a really, like, it's a really complicated. But my opinion, even now, though, right? Like, we're, yeah, you're right on all those things. we need depth to win a championship, right? But you went to go trade for Janus Adedekumba. You were going to have depth. You were basically going to trade one high spending, one highly

paid player for another. So that's the other thing that I keep saying about with Brad Stevens is, yes, that is logical. But that wasn't the actions that you were actually trying to take in this exercise here. So like, and then you traded for Paul George, who I guess is another asset. Cool. But what is your goal here? I guess, right? Like I guess that was the thinking. But like, what is your goal here? Is it to win a championship?

Because you just basically punt it on your window right now. Because at this very moment, you have Tatum who we don't know what he's going to be going into next year. And then we have playing him alongside Paul George, who at his peak would have been great. But right now, like, he is a very solid role player who can play great defense in a sense. specialized role as we saw last season. This isn't a championship roster. It just isn't. So you basically just punted on a championship roster after you try to trade for another

superstar to continue your championship trajectory. But then, like, all of a sudden, you just decide that you don't want the player that helped you become a champion in the first place. It just doesn't make any sense. I think a part of it, well, first of all, like, Janus is way better than Jalen Brown. Do you agree with that? Yeah. I agree with that.

I'm just saying all roads lead back to you not your reasoning is not liking Jalen Brown. Not liking Jalen Brown at 35% of the cap, which is, I think, a fair thing to believe. And it's kind of like we're thrusting this issue onto Philly. And Philly is now got to also deal with the fact that he's extension eligible. And are you going to add two years and $140 million? onto his contract and pay him $70 million when he's 33, 34 years old. Because we didn't want to do that. Wait, here's another elephant in the room.

This is the other elephant in the room. The league has successfully, they've been trying to do this for years going into the, ever since the 90s when the players got 57% of BRI. They have successfully clawed back the players' earning power because what they're going to do is they're going to try to convince the jail and brothers of the world, hey, like the NFL does. Hey, you take less money. we could build a formidable team around you, right?

Like, and it's going to incentivize players to take less, which is, damn, PA, y'all did a doozy on that one. That wasn't, that was not a great plan for you guys. They got at least, man. But this is what's going to happen. It's just going to be like, it's going to be teams trying to convince players to take less money and then villainizing them when they don't and then reaping the rewards of profit on it. And that's what we're seeing with the Jalen Brown thing.

Yes, it is a disaster. The system is a disaster for players. Even just like, I'm just thinking about like the fact that if you use the full mid-level, which is a tool to get better, right? If I use the full mid-level, I'm hard-capped at the first apron. So I'm hard-capped in a number and I can't spend any more money. So I can't go to the owner and be like, let's get like, this was having Bill Chisholm yesterday in the press conference talking about money moves versus basketball moves.

And it's like, my hands are tied, you know? I literally couldn't go over this. I want to as a fan that sucks, man. It's terrible. It's terrible. 100%. Anyways, let's keep it going. Let's keep it going.

I have another philosophical question for you. What does John Morant have to do to make this trade work in this favor? I'm not talking about the picks. I'm not talking about the deal is done. It was bad for who it was bad for. It was bad for it was good for who it was good for. But John Morant as a basketball player and just his future within the league.

What does you think he has to do to make this work? I have a couple of reasons, but I really want to hear what you got to say. Well, number one is just like, obviously not to like infanalyze, but like behave, you know, stay out of trouble, et cetera. That would be terrific, a first start, which he has done of late, for sure. Stay healthy, number two, be on the court. and like I want to see him look I don't I don't know if this is possible I don't know if the guy who was I would he finish like seventh for MVP in 2023 or something like that he was he was his third or fourth year where he was absolutely incredible it was 21 22 okay and he was the most exciting player like to me he was the most exciting player in the whole league I loved watching john moran I don't know if that player I just haven't seen him in a very long time I know he's only 26. years old, I think.

Like, have the injuries cut up to him? He said the thing about I don't want to dunk anymore because I've got to preserve my body. It's like just very concerning stuff. So I want to see the highlights and I want to see efficiency and I want to see him try on defense and just tone it down. I guess it's like, I don't know. I'm not very optimistic about this situation, man.

Just learn from Dame, man. I think Dame has a lot of game to share for you, man. And I don't think that he has to be, I don't think he has to be, I don't think that he has to be John Morant anymore, if that makes sense, right? Like, just be whatever comes next. And, like, if you have to, like, he is at the stage right now where Alan Iverson was with the end of Denver going into Detroit. We don't want him to get to Memphis, right?

We don't want him, we don't want him to be the Alan Iverson of Memphis. Memphis. What we want to see is, you know, man, let's reinvent who you are. Now, you might not be the star of the team, but at least like, this is just like a stop through to get back to your next destination to be like just a different version of yourself. Become a better shooter. Become somebody that can maybe be like a very explosive role type of player or a complimentary player, right? Whatever that means. And I think that that, I think, I think, I think the rehabilitation will take care of himself if he just, like, lets people in

in a way that I don't think he has, you know? This is just, this is going to be a clean start. And there's a lot of people in his ear, you know, especially in Memphis. And, like, I think he wilts it a little bit under being the star. And I think this is a good situation where he just, he doesn't necessarily,

he just has to be just jaw. And I'm excited to see that from him. I'm excited to see, I think everything else will fall into place if that happens. I think if Mike Anori says, hey, you got to come off the bench, do it. Do whatever the team needs you to do and win. And I think that winning will cure a lot, staying healthy, upright, will do a lot for you.

And just remind people that you're an incredible talent. But I'm a little cynical on this subject, but I hope for the best for him. and I want to see the old jaw. Like, I want to see that. He's incredible. Let's take a quick break. We're going to go back to the West Coast, talk a little bit about Denver.

All right, man. How much does Yokic not signing his extension scare you if you're a Denver Nuggets fan? If I'm a fan, yeah, I'm going to be, I'd rather you sign it. That would be cool. I also, I don't know, maybe I'm totally naive and wrong.

I take him at his word, and I see also the financial incentive for him to not sign and sign next summer. And I'm like, okay, cool, I get it. You keep saying you only want to be here. This is where you're raising your family. And you can make, what, $80 million extra dollars if you wait a year.

I get it. Cool, man. Do that. And retire with the Nuggets, and I have nothing to worry about. We'll see if that happens. And maybe I'm being super naive about it. And also, like, I would like you to sign it. So just sign it. So we don't, I don't have to

think about it anymore. That would be also terrific because I know how the NBA works. And if we, like, have a nightmare season and Jamal Murray gets hurt at Thanksgiving and we don't even make the playoffs, are you really going to sign that contract? Like, you know what I mean? So, yeah, but I, so like when I, I got flashbacks to that, um, of Yonis last season hearing this, right? I was doing it like a mental compare and contrast of, man, on one hand, he's saying, he's, I don't think Yolka just never lied to us, right? Like, or it never felt like what he, his word was nefarious in any way. Whereas, whereas Janus, like, I never quite believed him.

And not even just through this season, through his actions and what we, we've heard behind the scenes of, you know, it's always, it was, it's kind of like the Celtics thing where it was like publicly, I'm saying. this. I want to stay in Milwaukee and privately. He's just telling his representation, get me the hell out of here as fast as possible, right? I don't get that sense from Yokic. I simply don't. Like, I do get the sense that

yeah, I'm going to resign. I don't even get it as like pressure, right? Like, I mean, it's... No. I just... I don't think... I don't see it even as pressure in the front office. Like, I, he has been, in the way that Janus was consistently kind of, I don't know, two-faced. isn't the right word, right? But, you know, maybe it is. Maybe it is, right? Like, he probably was.

He was. He wanted the love, but he did, it wasn't true to himself. And that kind of cost him a few years. And may cost him an NBA title that he probably left on the table because he waited so long. That being said, I don't feel that from Yolkin. And I think that ultimately you will sign, I would, I'm not scared of like him being a fly risk. I'm just not. I get it. I'm scared of, I'm scared for him mostly like, I don't want him to get injured before he gets. it's a stupid bag, right? But other than that, like, I'm not that concerned.

And I think, I think one thing these players maybe should learn, like, to just a loser, leverage just a little bit better, right? Where if it's clear,

your team isn't doing anything to help you, right? And has this been terrible towards you? Then it's like, yo, I need to cut. But, like,

consistently the nuggets have done right by yoga or at least try to overhauling their roster, just letting all assets, keeping all assets on the table to try to keep him. Even last year, just revamping their roster on the fly is what you're supposed to do in the modern NBA.

It just injuries just killed them last year. And I don't think that's a slight to him. I think that's just the breaks. I think that Janus cares a lot about what people think about him. And I think Yokic could not give two shits what anyone thinks about him based on how he's acted and behaved throughout his entire career. I think that's like the fundamental difference between these two guys. And I think that Yokic has full trust in the nuggets.

But I also, if he is using this as a leverage play, yeah, it's super smart. Like you guys are talking about trading a starter to keep. Like technically, you're talking about cutting salary, trading a starter, either Cam Johnson or Christian Brown, so that we can keep a guy who in Peyton Watson, and who was coming off the bench. And you think that after losing in the first round, this is going to get us closer to the NBA championship.

We'll see how all that happens and plays out. But I don't think he's going to leave. I would be shocked. Let's go to Toronto. I haven't gotten your thoughts yet on the Raptors. So what do you think? Where are they? Give me your Eastern Conference power rankings at this very moment.

I mean, I got to go. Nix won, right? I don't want to disrespect the defending champions. champions, even though I do think Mitch Robinson to Andre Drummond is, that's a steep one. We have, Leighton, we have Cliff in the chat, Honorable. We have Cliff in the chat in all caps Philly. And that brought me back to the prepot discussion that we should bring on to here. Can you just give your Philly discussion, please? Can you just, can you crush his dreams and tell us why the Philadelphia 76ers may or may not make it to the promise lane? I mean, I had Cliff reading me players who are on this roster.

as if it was like the 92 dream team and I'm like no like there is no depth here I think this is a six man team like who who is giving me minutes in a playoff series that I can trust besides and I haven't said anything about Joel and Bid in the fact that he won't be able to be healthy

in the playoffs which is a whole different other can of worms but go ahead I got to, this is going to pay me. This is going to pay me, Clip. I kind of got to roll with Pina on this one because of their lack of depth. I do like Jalen Brown and him as a two-way player. I am probably higher on him than most.

But I saw Embed struggle to get through a playoff series. And he's only getting a year older. And I love Maxie, but you need to build, it's kind of like Luca in a sense, right? Like they're in this weird situation like the Lakers were in where you kind of got to pick a side, especially with this apron, which we've already just said is just the big bad wolf in this situation. But if Maxey's your guy and we all know it is, you got to make moves to build around him. And until you actually do that and actually have a real conversation about what Embed's value is, it's also terrible timing, right? signed this big deal and just was injured. And you can't do

like an incentive-based deal for your best player, one of your best players in franchise history in that way. It's just, it's just bad optics. And so they're just going to catch 22 until they figure that part out. And that's just going to be the struggle of the new NBA as we know it right now.

It's just we're not going to get continuity because we're always going to have to tinker and always going to have to tinker based on, on, you know, injuries and just general. bad luck. It's going to be tough for a lot of people's teams. I'm just looking at this roster and it's like

Justin Edwards, Dail and Terry, R.L. Huck Porty, Huck Pordy was like a big signing for the Sixers. I like Dean Wade. I think Simons is okay at that number. I think there's just a lot of cooks in the kitchen. I think Jalen Brown wanted his own team. This is not

Jailen Brown getting his own team. I think the Sixers gave up two pretty good draft picks also in dumping Paul George and I wonder how much they were incentivized to get off of Paul George's contract versus taking on Jalen Brown's contract is something I've been thinking about and that I shared with Cliff which made him upset before we started recording.

But this could be a, I don't want to say disaster. I think that's too strong. Definitely too strong. But there's definitely a path of this. Bigger disaster now. Bigger disaster next year. Potential disaster. The Sixers of the Celtics.

I think the Celtics are going to be good. I do. I think they're going to be good. Health permitting. Health permitting that I think they're going to be good. If Paul George plays 25 games, obviously we have a different conversation. Tatum couldn't get to a series last year or this year. He couldn't even get through a playoff series.

Yeah, well, he's over a year removed from the injury. He's over a year removed from the injury. I think he'll be okay. He has a full off season now to recover. Okay. If you assume that Jason Tatum is going to be looking like he did before, I think this team is very good. And I think Mitchell Robinson and Kada is a really good center front court rotation.

Mitchell Robinson can barely stay healthy, though. Hey, play, give me 18 minutes. Give me 18, 20 minutes, man. Big fella. Okay. All right, man. I think they're fine. I think they're good.

I think there's a little bias on there, man. I think it's a little, just like a tiny bit right there. I think there's a little bit too much benefit of the doubt. Mazzula ball, baby. Missoula ball. Right. No, I think they'll be okay. I don't think it'll be a disaster. What do you think is going to happen with Lamello and Ant? What kind of hubris are you expecting out of Minnesota? I think that that could be super fun. I don't think that they're very small right now, I'll say. So I don't know what their title chances are. But I think this is great for Ant personally. I think he'll have the most fun playing basketball that he's had in a while, minus a few.

you know, Lamello's pension for the one-legged step back from 35 feet with 16 on the shot clock. If we could cut those down a little bit, I think we'll be in really good shape. But just having someone who can commandeer an offense,

who can play fast, who can spread the floor, who I can trust. When Lamello's on the court, Charlotte's offense was absolutely sensational last season. So someone I can trust to run things when I don't have the ball. Let me play off the ball a little bit more.

I like it for him. The team, I know this is like kind of one and the same and I'm kind of splitting hairs here. For the team, I don't know what this means in terms of like championship contention or anything like that. I think it's a huge gamble. But for Ant and Lamello, I think that that can fundamentally work at least on one side of the ball. Yeah, I don't know, man. The sacrifice. Yeah.

Yeah. Hey, I hear you and I feel you with what you're. saying i'm not like uh you're gonna die on i think ultimately i think ultimately like aunt wants to win right this isn't a winning roster and over the last i mean even if they got lebron it's not a winning roster and over the last five years they've they've systematically gutted a team that goes to the western conference finals and you have been relying so much more every year on Ant's brilliance to overcome, you know, your hubris. I hope that Lamello figures it out enough offensively to, not even offensively.

Just figures it out just as a, from a team concept. He still got to play defense. He still has to be serious, right? Like one year is one year. But like, it's a totality of all of this that builds a champion, which is ultimately what Ant is striving for. And so, like, sure, on a possession in the middle of Jam, January on a Tuesday, it's great that you could have somebody else run the offense.

But do you trust LaMello to be able to do it late May? We don't know because we've never actually seen it. And the time that in the small sample size of big time basketball that we've had, we had a roller coaster finish against Miami and we had a no show to end the season against Orlando who a week before that there were whispers that they quit on their coach. right so like I think we're forgetting all of that too I get it but I think sometimes we're looking at it from a hive mind a hive 2K mind about how this is going to go like on 2K I'm winning three straight chips with them but in real life I don't I don't it's it's a tough sell for me it's a very tough sell totally valid opinion 100% so I don't like it for aunt that's why I don't like it for aunt because aunt wants to win multiple titles and he's not going to to do that based on the current conditions. Yeah, I would say, like, if they didn't do it, though, then I'm like, all right,

are you still just going to get double and triple teamed and nothing's different? You know, at least this was a little bit of a shakeup. I think Rudy might kill a mellow ball this year. That's possible. He might murder him on the basketball court. Yeah, so you're saying that, like, you just said that it'll be a good time, but somebody might get murdered. It's basically what you're saying in the Minnesota Timberwolves season this season.

That's what it is. I'm doing that Brad Stevens double talk. That's what I'm doing right now. Exactly. And I'm Bill, I'm Bill Chisholm just like, actually we are trying to spend money. We actually are trying to build a contender. Oh, man. That was tough.

That was tough. I still don't get why. So you're still on the, you're still on that. You're still on that they're going to be good? Do you think they're going to just like win like, what, 60 games? What is good to you? I think they'll be good. I think the roster is better than it was last year and they won 56 games.

isn't the second best offense in the NBA? Like, look, I think it does come down to health, for sure. It comes down to health. It comes down to the internal improvement from some of the young guys, taking the next step forward. That's not a guarantee. This was, I mean, fundamentally, it's a gamble.

What they did is a gamble to increase their optionality and get the draft picks and get a player in Paul George, who makes more sense, maybe in the system next to Tatum. Like I get their understanding or their rationale for doing everything, I guess. I think they'll be fine. I think they'll be good.

I don't know if they're going to win the championship, but I think they'll be good. They're not. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's simply not going to happen. All right, let's say a quick break. And on the other side,

we're going to make predictions. Okay. Let's make some just out-of-the-box predictions. Who's your sleeper for next year? I like Toronto. I like Toronto a lot. Yep. I'm always a Kauai.

I've always been a Kauai person. I don't. I think Kauai is like a walking sleeper agent in general, right? Like any time he's on the floor, like they, you never know what's going to happen, right? Like they could have the greatest season of his career. They don't make the playoffs because they got tired at the end of the season and couldn't and just and lost the Warriors right like that's just but they could also in the east it could be a different story who knows

right i yes i i i still think he's one of like the five best players on the planet um and he can sustain that as he did last year and i just i watched scottie barnes in the playoffs last year and i like scotty what he did in that series against cleveland was like super super impressive on both both ends of the floor. I loved everything that I saw. And I think defensively, they will be halacious. And like in your jersey, 48 minutes, 94 feet. And I'm going to love watching them play basketball. And if you get to the playoffs and you have Kauai and he's healthy, I'm probably just going to pick your team. That's just how I, that's how reductive I am when it comes to Kauai. So the Raptors are my sleeper, I think, in the Eastern Conference.

Can I give you the Sixers? Can I say the Sixers? Make the case, please. Okay. They have dudes that can just score it. They have dudes that can score and they are tough, right? Like, we didn't think about BJ Edgecombe. That's the other thing that I just want to say that sucks about this CBA, right?

Like, BJ Edgecombe, his development is going to be thrown way off because of the addition. of Jalen Brown, right? Yes. Like, you could not have any sort of continuity with this apron whatsoever, right? Unless, like, you drafts, you have to hit on every draft pick. This is just, this is stupid. Sorry, this is very stupid. This is just all this is just stupid. Who's winning out of the West? Who's winning the West? The West is going to be fun. Oh, can I, okay, they're not going to win the West, but my, my, like, general holistic sleeper for this season is the Utah Jazz. That's my team.

I'm getting on the bandwagon before anyone. That's good. You saw two, you saw two Darren Peterson, several league games. Like, I'm in. Dude. He's cooking G-leaguers and you're like, I'm in. The game looks. I don't know.

The game looks so easy for that, dude. You know what's funny? This is like, you know, our version of the next Jordan, right? Which is the next Kobe. which is a weird thing to say like we're on the search and look we weren't even actually on the search for the next Kobe but Darren Peterson was like I'm just going to I'm going to be I'm going to be the next Kobe and that's what it's going to be and he's trying so hard and I keep like saying like man demartor Rosen already tried to do that like you don't have to do that just be you just be you just be your own mentality that doesn't work out for people yeah he's he's I yeah I hope that isn't the case everything that you're you're saying um about him, but... He keeps saying it. Did you see the sideline report where he was just trying to evoke Kobe on the Mamba?

Yeah, that's frustrating. But I would have liked for them to keep Walker Kessler, I'm not going to lie. And I think he's good. He's a good starting senator. He would have fit there and made them just ginormous. I still like the roster quite a bit. I still like the front court. I like Keante George.

I think he can still take another step. And I just think Peterson, like if I know, I don't really watch college basketball, so my opinions or whatever about this stuff. But I would have taken Darren Peterson first. I think he's the best player. And you think this is a Durant, Odin situation, potentially? Do you think this could be one of those things? Hopefully, no one gets hurt. Not in a hurt way.

I'm just saying, like, the number one pick was the, what I do feel is like the number one pick is something. AJ DeBanzah is a number one pick, no matter what. what, right? And he's, meaning that he's the guy that you have to take in the draft no matter what. But that tends to kick people in the ass on the back end as history suggests. And that's what I mean more of is it's like an Odin, Durant thing where, you know, clearly Durant was the future. And we have the benefit of hindsight of seeing that. But that may be the case. Right. We just got to see, we also got to see Demandza. I mean, I'm going to see him in Summer League. I'm sure. We're going to see what he does. But also, it's way too early. It's also way. It's a little early.

Yeah. So you're. The fact that you're, you called the jazz of sleeper based on two suburb league games. He's playing as G-leaguers and people that are going to be playing overseas in two months. All that plus John Conchar. Sign me up. Okay. All right. All right, all right.

I'm scared. So who's coming out of your West? Who's coming out of the West for you? I want to see. Well, actually, I don't, I don't think I need to see too much. I think it's the Spurs. I, you know, I think that Victor Womenyama is just going to get better. Castle is going to get better.

Harper is just, I still can't get over what he did in the NBA finals. And, I mean, I like their offseason so far. They, like, haven't really lost anybody. They add Tobias Harris, who's, like, a nice pickup for what he's going to provide. And they add depth pieces in the front court in the draft, like young, big dudes who can spell Wemby.

So it's either them or the Thunder. I don't really know who else. I think based on what I saw from them in the finals at the biggest states, I think Dylan Harper is a point guard, but he needs a, the key for them is him developing into a game manager, more of a game manager, and stop trying to get his own shots every single time, right? And I think that evolution takes more than one summer. And so because of that, I think that the spurs tend to have a ceiling in a way that OKC just does it right now in my eyes, right?

Like they lost because I think they lost because a number of reasons, right? Wimbuniamen was incredible. But also like J. Dub wasn't didn't play most of the series and was playing most of that series and the playoffs hobbled, right? If he's back in the fold, there are a lot different team. And AJ Mitchell. We'll see. AJ Mitchell, right? But they've also lost some people. But I do think that I would give the edge to OKC right now because I'm still giving the edge to experience right now, only because I think that they're a solid game managing point guard away from being what they ultimately wants to be. They have that in Harper, but he's just so young. And he played great, but he also played like a young player. So I'm going to go to OKC just because I think they just have the slight edge and experience and game. I will say real quick, I'm not giving up on Deer and Fox as a basketball player. I think.

he's still very good. But Deerre Fox is the, he's a, he's a, he's getting dinged because of his contract, I think. Also, he didn't play well, but like, it's his contract. If he had a lower deal and was coming off the bench and being Deerrin Fox, that would be amazing. Yeah, I think, yeah, totally fair. I don't think that they get to the finals without him. And I think he does a lot of, did a lot of really good things, even in, you know, the Western Conference finals. He was really good when he was healthy.

He's also playing through the high ankle sprain. So I'm looking forward to seeing him healthy, and I still think he should start. I think Harper should still come off the bench, and then I think in Harper's year three, like I think Harper, they should be selling him on Win Sixth Man of the Year for us and run our second team.

I think that that's like what they should be selling him on because apparently he was a little unhappy with his role as a rookie. I think that's a fair sell. And then in year three, it's like either you're trading Fox or Fox, you're coming off the bench because Dylan Harper is going to be our starting point guard. But I think you can still slow roll this a little bit and you kind of have to. Yeah, we'll see. Who's your sleep route east and who is your champion? Or who is your Eastern Conference champion?

I want to see what the Detroit Pistons do still. I think they still have stuff to do. I mean, obviously, they're going to. got to sign Durant. That's getting easier by the day. Yes. I don't understand what's taking so long. I want them to pull the trigger for Trey Murphy, like, badly.

Yeah. I think they're the perfect team for him, and he's someone who they can put you over the top and be a missing piece and do whatever it takes to get him is kind of how I feel. And if they were to do that or make another swing for someone else of that caliber at that money level, then I think that they would somewhat easily be my pick to win the East this year.

I just have a lot of respect for Cade. I like that they evolve their identity a little bit away from like we're just going to literally beat your ass to we're going to make three-pointers. Like I think that's a really smart way to evolve as a basketball team. So they're going in that direction, which is nice. I just think that the pistons need to get tougher, bro.

Like if you're going to, to get to that level. You need to get players that are going to be tougher and your front line dudes are to be tougher. That's simply what it is at this point. They had Stewart and I love Bees- But he can't be the guy, he can't be that guy though. He's a backup, he's a backup big, right?

Like, oh, you're not gay, you need somebody, the people that you're game planning for, the Cades and the durance, they need to be tougher, right? And I think Trey Murphy would be a great addition to that because I think he helps with that, right? He can help with that deficiency. but they're not, I don't think they're going to win the East until they have a total vibe shift. They need to really embody the city of Detroit.

And I don't think, I think, I think it's like 85%, but they're not, they're not 100% yet. So what is your answer to this question? Pacers? No one's, no one's talking about the Pacers. As they shouldn't. They haven't proven anything. I think it's between either the Raptors or the Knicks at this particular point. At this point right now, in July 7th, with free agency not over, I think right now it will be, it's out of those two teams.

Okay, very fair. I think that that's good. You want to crown a champion way too early before we get out of here? Way too early? I'm going to go, I'm going to go at OKC. Go ahead. Besides the Celtics, I think, I got to go spurs, I guess. I got to go spurs.

All right. So, all right, man. Um, Michael Pino, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks so much for coming on. We'll see you soon. That has been another edition of real ones. Um, we'll see you guys on Friday. Talk to y'all real soon.

I, all the shits. Bye.