The Ringer NBA Show - The Magic Whiteboard With Kevin O’Connor (Ep. 93)

Episode Date: April 4, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor discuss the NCAA championship (5:00), Rob Hennigan’s leaked whiteboard (13:00), JaMychal Green’s market value (24:00), the Boogie–Anthony Davis experiment (35:00), and the best potential playoff matchups (43:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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tune in. Just go to tune in.com slash ringer and subscribe. Download the tune in app and start listening today. Tune in, your everything audio app. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday is Kevin O'Connor from the ringer.com. Kevin! Hey, Chris, what's going on?

Well, last night I think was a good night for the NBA, actually, given what we had to watch for the NCAA title game. that was I mean listen with all due respect to North Carolina fans and Tate Frazier who worked with us on the podcast on regular occasion who's an alum

that was a miserable watch last night yeah man at one point in the second half it was like one whistle every 34 seconds it was just excruciating to watch I was getting bored I was like half watching the game

which I should never be doing during the national championship it just wasn't entertaining It wasn't helpful from a scouting perspective. It really was just one of the worst national championships I've watched in my lifetime. Okay, let's talk about how it does affect the NBA. You know, for years and years, most of the teams that won titles had at least two or three pros on their team from either of those two teams, North Carolina or Gonzaga. Is there anybody that you are a big fan of their prospects as an NBA player?

I really like Zach Collins and Gonzaga. even though he followed out in 14 minutes. It wasn't his fault, that's for sure. Zach Collins had a good night, though. Look beyond the box score. He did a good job of scoring efficiently, made good plays on both end. He really does everything well, right?

I think at this point for him, his decision will come down to, do I stay another year for my sophomore year and refine my game and really try to certify that I'm going to be a top 10 pick, or do I declare now and become like a back end of the lottery guy? because I think he's absolutely deserving of being in that 10 to 14 range. Granted, last night wasn't exactly helpful in a way.

He still looked good in 14 minutes, despite all the files. I say this, man, two of these guys that were college players this year and amazing, you know, so young in their college career, but you really noticed how great their footwork was was Collins and then obviously Tatum from Duke. Like those kids are very refined. They got nice moves around the basket, little drop steps. I mean, there were some Kevin McAil stuff that Collins was pulling off during this tournament. You know, the funny thing is, is like, you know, watching Big Men today in college,

sometimes, like, you know, when I see them doing those Kevin McAil moves in the post, I care less about that than how they carve out space. So, like, Zach Collins, I think it was his fourth foul. He just moved Bradley out of the way. And he had a clear, clear, he created space to catch a. entry pass and just put the ball straight up. And sometimes I care more about those moves than I do, like the actual footwork on post moves. And Collins, you know, he does both his great footwork on the post.

And that also translates into more applicable areas, like, you know, catching a quick entry pass and going straight up. He just has great hand-eye coordination. I think he has good body control and under pressure he's able to score. And those are the things, you know, you really like to see from a big man in today's NBA. Anybody off the Carolina team? I mean, you know, Justin Jackson's the guy everybody talks about. I'm not in love with him. I know he gets some lottery hype. I'm just not that. I'm not bad into Justin Jackson. I think he has a chance to be a quality NBA player, but I still worry about his shot. I tweeted out last night or early this morning that over his last 10 games, he shot 29% from three after shooting like 40% the first 20 or so games of the season. And, you know, look, it's a small sample size, but so isn't this entire year. The The past two years at North Carolina, Jackson was not a good shooter. And he made revisions to his shooting mechanics, which early in this season looked great.

But the last 10 games they didn't. And one of the tough parts for players is sustaining revised mechanics. Like you can theoretically change your shot, but you need to make that into like something that sustains over an extended period of time. And for Jackson, it's super important that that shot translates for him to be a quality NBA player. He does a lot of things pretty well, but it's really important that that shot, which is a great level for him to be worth, I think, a back-end lottery pick. It's interesting because it's now been quite a while.

Maybe, I guess you'd have to go back to the Calipari team that had Anthony Davis on it to find a championship team that had like, you know, future big-time star on it. Because if you go past that Kentucky team, the next year was Louisville. and that was like, you know, the little Silva kid and Russ Smith and Luke Hancock, I believe, was like the most outstanding player. So that wasn't like some kind of lottery talent loaded team. And then you had the Yukon team, which was a total outlier, got really hot during the tournament, the Chavez Napier team. Then you had Duke. I get, no, I take that back.

The Duke team against Wisconsin, they had Okafore and they had Tyos Jones and they had Winslow. So there was that one. But even last year's Villanova team. And then you have this year's Carolina team. It's interesting that nowadays, you know, there was that run there with the Florida teams and the Kansas team and the North Carolina team with Lawson and Hansborough. I mean, it's just loaded with pros. And I'm not saying that these guys aren't going to play professional basketball or have NBA careers. But it's not the highest level talent that has won most recently for sure.

No, you're right. that's an interesting observation, especially in recent seasons. And I think, you know, that's probably why a lot of college coaches argue that, you know, their guys should stay because it's hard to win with freshmen in college. And it's hard to win with rookies in the NBA. I guess it's similar in that sense. So look, I mean, for me, you know, why I watch college basketball, I largely watch, like, just through a scouting lens. You know, so much of the time when I watch, it's like, I want the players that I want to scout to advance. in the tournament so I can see more of those guys. It's more film on those guys and they get to

face a higher level of competition on a bigger stage. And this year, like the final four had talent in it, but, you know, Sandarius Thornwell, it's like, you know, I like Thornwell, I like Zach Collins, but I want to see some of these guys that are the top lottery picks advancing and playing each other. That's why that UCLA-Kentucky game was my favorite game in the tournament from a scouting perspective and probably one of the better games, I think, for fans to watch of the after in college as well. Oh, yeah. I mean, I was at that game in person, and I have never been through, I've never been in an arena

like that where within six seconds it was, you know, the joy of winning and the agony of defeat within a six second span. Or not even winning, but it almost felt like Kentucky had won when Monk hit that shot because, I mean, the whole stadium just erupted. And then, you know, they didn't even have time. Within like five seconds, the kid on the. other end hit the shot. It was like, you could have heard a pin drop in the place. It was unbelievable. That was something else. Yeah. That particular game, I think, will be memorable.

And then the South Carolina run and Thornwell. We'll never forget his name because of the name. Right. He's got a great name. And that was, that run to the final fours out of nowhere. I think it's disappointing the way they lost. Frank Martin really mismanaged, mismanaged the end of that game on Saturday night. Disappointing end for them, but the run was very memorable. And Sundarius Thornwell's name is a name I will never forget. And it wouldn't surprise me if 18 to 20 years from now, there's a couple Cendariuses that are born today that are someday NBA players. All right. So great name. Cendarius Thornwell. Just say it out loud if you're listening to the show. Cendarius Thornwell, it feels good to say. Well, hey, listen, if you ever have a kid,

Cendarius O'Connor, how does that sound? Sounds regal. Thinking about kids is a big decision anyway. But I think that sounds regal. Never mind a name. It sounds like something out of like Game of Thrones, Sandarius O'Connor. Hey man, I'm looking forward to Game of Thrones coming back. All right.

So while everybody's focus was on college basketball yesterday and that title game last night that turned out to be rather dreadful, the story that was most intriguing out of the NBA for NBA fans. was this picture that came out that was taken from what appears to be like a war room of sorts at the Orlando Magic headquarters. They had signed this guard, Patricio Garino, and his agent takes a picture of him signing the contract all the while in the background. It appears to be the Orlando Magic offseason plans. on a board, which then everybody, of course, expands and then starts to pour over.

Now, Rob Henigan, who is the general manager for Orlando, said the board was not indicative of plans and were simply listing options, including some of which other teams inquired about. This is a great way. So for people that don't know, it had their categories on there, hybrid free agency, it had hybrid trade. It mentioned all kinds of players' names. It also named off, like, there was one super interesting thing, like where it said Sarich, and then in parentheses, it said for AG.

Sarage for AG. Yeah, for Aaron Gordon. And so, which, like, that's what he has to. I know that's why Hennigan said what he did, because he was like, some of which other teams have inquired about or whatever, right? Like, that's his way of saying, we didn't, you know, they called up. us about that, right? We didn't call them about, like, that was a question that was, and it was just, like, I don't even know, the first thing is, I don't even know how the hell you let that

kid in that room. You know what I mean? Like, what is the kid doing in that room anyway? There's a million other places he can be. Like, I know you probably don't fathom that his agent is going to take a picture of it, but what are they even doing in the room in the first place? much like how are they even a position to take a picture of that board you know so if i was an nba general manager i would not be writing all these names in a whiteboard i'd have them in like a double password protected laptop you know after the hacking scandal between the astros and the cardinals i'd be super paranoid about that type of stuff so the last thing i would too is have these all these names on a whiteboard in my office out there for anybody to see so besides besides that i just can't get

over the Saurich and then 4A.G. In parentheses, question mark on that board. I was just looking down the list, reading it, thinking, oh, you know, these are just, you know, potential guys that seem reasonably that would be available. Chandler Parsons, kind of weird to see his name on there. And then I'm like, wait a minute. Sarich, for Aaron Gordon, you call the Sixers of that trade? They're like, hell no.

And I think that at least they would be. Sarich, as much as I love Aaron Gordon, Sarich can do a whole lot more for you, I think. So I think that was a little bit silly to see on there. But, you know, really, this is one of the biggest flubups in the history, I think, you know, of front office mistakes that we've ever seen. Like, how does this happen, man? How does this happen, Chris? And there was all kinds of names on there. There's Gallinari, Millsap, Iguodala.

There was like that trade list with Wilson Chandler and Juan Hernan Gomez. And, like, it was all, of course, I did the whole thing, you know, like where you, on your iPhone. You know, you pull up the picture that you start to expand it with your fingers. And I was just like pouring over the whole thing. I was like, wow. Look at this. You know what idea I got from that? So like, let's say, no, you're the magic.

You're not going to be winning in the next three years, right? You can afford to take on a horrible contract like Chandler Parsons, right? You can afford to take that on. If you're the Grizzlies, how many first-round draft picks are you giving up to dump Chandler Parsons? They don't have any. They don't have any to give up. No future picks? in the future year like they

well they don't have one future picks upcoming draft and that's hometown for him Parsons grew up a magic fan when I saw his name on the list I was like what the hell he's just coming off the third knee surgery actually you know now that I think about it

they're giving up there at 2019 to Boston so they can't give up one until 2021 if you're the magic would you really want to wait that long to get your pay off for taking Chandler Parsons I don't know if you would I couldn't believe his name was on that list. I really couldn't.

I think it was on there twice. I think it's on there under the hybrid trade and under the spread big straight. I'm pretty sure his name was on there twice. If I remember correctly. So there's hope for you, Chris. There's hope. They can move off of Chandler Parsons' $94 million contract. I don't know, man.

I just, you know, I feel bad for the agent. Granted, it was his mistake putting it out there. but I think it's really it's really just disappointing to see I mean I know Henigan denies that you know there's much to this list and maybe it's true but at the same time everybody's going to read into this and it's just

it's a bad look for the team in the organization I think it's just a sloppy look you know what the little minor story from all this and I know there's going to be some NBA fans that are listening to this and be like how could you not know that I didn't know that I didn't know Rob Henigan was 35

I mean that is incredibly, did you realize he was the youngest general manager in basketball at one point? Did you realize he was that young? I mean, I knew he was young, but 35. I think when he was hired, he might have been the youngest ever hired, or one of the youngest hired.

Yeah, he still is the youngest GM in the league. For real, he is. Okay. Yeah, he's 35 years old. This is not a good look. And this segues perfectly into your bad NBA team's power rankings article that you put out this week.

You had the magic number 10. I did, but I did not know about this at the time. All right, after you see their offseason plans, would you change your ranking? No, not after seeing Jeff Green X on there. Don't bring back Jeff Green. Michael Green, cool. Jeff Green, no. So the fact Jeff Green's even on the list, they're like, they've fallen off the list entirely.

They're number 11, even though you can't be that bad. I put, I kind of, people respond to that. They were a little surprised to see the nets ahead of the magic. And really, look, for one, don't read into the rankings too much. Like, it's very fluid. And a lot of these teams can be shifted, you know, between each other. But the reason why I put the nets ahead of the magic is just because I look at the progress, Kenny Atkinson has made with this young team, the system he's installed.

They're playing a lot like the rocket. So the frequency of threes and at-rim opportunities, they just don't have the players. It's like the old saying, you know, X's and O's aren't as good as Jimmy's and Joe's, right? Like, they need the players. And I think, but they are building the system to really add those guys. That's up to the front office to find them. And it might take years. But I think they do have a solid infrastructure that's encouraging.

And I think Nets fans, you know, even if you feel hopeless with no pick this year, no pick next year, you get to feel good about those too late first they have and their ability to move within the draft. And I think Sean Marks is a good general manager. And I think they have a chance to come out of this. It might take time, though. But I feel good about their chances. Whereas with the magic, they're putting their plans on whiteboards.

And that's not a good look. So that's just a management thing. You believe more in the management and philosophy of Brooklyn. That cannot be a talent ranking. for sure because they're I mean the nets have nothing like like what I know you put in Lavert you put in Hollis Jefferson but I mean are those high level starters in the NBA or they even you know you feel good about those guys being starters for your team um in three four years maybe so maybe so but like you know Jeremy lends a backup who's having to start and

Brooke Lopez, A, he's not getting any younger, and B, the league has changed. And I know he's shooting threes now, whatever, but I'm not a huge Lopez fan anyway. I mean, I just look up and down their roster. I'm like, geez, man. I don't even know how much of this I would want. Whereas the magic, you could foresee some of those guys in other places being good. I could. No, I mean, I don't disagree at all.

I think you look at the magic roster, they have more young talent. I just think I just think I think I think Kenny Atkinson is a really really good coach and just because he's in a bad situation with a bunch of non-NBA players

I like what they're building it it's just going to take time and so in terms of hopefulness I look at what it's also kind of what Orlando did last summer I look at what they did last summer and I'm thinking what exactly is their plan

do they really have a plan with Brooklyn and I feel like there is kind of a sense that they know what they're doing. They have their plan and they're going to stick to it. Whereas with Orlando, I liked what Orlando was doing up until last year when they traded for Sergei Baca, when they made those moves. And granted, they pulled the plug on that already. I'm not sure they're going to stick to that. And it's really hard to say because they've really made health to skeletalter decisions

in just the past year. Will they continue their youth movement like they should? I don't know. I think they should. I think they should continue building young. I don't think that they should be aiming for, you know, Chandler Parsons or older veterans unless like, unless the return is good. They need to continue with the youth movement. And I think that's really what the nets are going for. With Lavert, you mentioned him earlier. I don't know if he's going to be a long-term starter. I think he, if he stays healthy, he's going to be a player. I think he'll be a role player, at least. I like his talent. But with him, he was, you know, a borderline lottery talent. And the only

reason he fell is because concerns about his foot. And the Nets took a good calculated risk on him taking him because that's what you need to do. You know, when you don't have a top pick until 2019, right? I think you need to hope you hit a home run on one of these picks they have. They could have two picks this year in the first round and it's a pretty good draft. They could add a third and maybe a fourth if they trade Brooke Lopez, which I think they should. And then suddenly you might have a lot of young talent on that team and maybe one of those picks hits, big and suddenly you know your your path towards you know the playoffs is more accelerated than you think not to mention the fact that they have a ton of cap room and last year they might have missed

out on tyler johnson and they might have missed out on alan crab but that doesn't mean they will miss out this year in guys like contavius coldwell pope or guy a guy restricted free agents at that level not quite stars but really good contributing players so i think they could turn this around not to a playoff level but to a level where things are looking a whole up than they do right now when you look at their roster. And they are a danger to so many of those other teams that they'll drive the price up on their guys. Right? If you've got a restricted free agent that you want to keep, you never know because, I mean, those were out of nowhere.

People did not expect Tyler Johnson or Alan Crab to get the money that they got last offseason. And they got that money because Brooklyn came in there and said, we'll give it to you. And it forced those teams to pay up to be able to keep their guys. Yeah, and I'd be going hard at guys like Jamichael Green, Otto Porter, Contavius Caldwell Pope. I mean, we can assume that those teams will pay those guys, but there's no guarantees. Like, you know, because it relates back to what we talked about last week

in regards to the Raptors, where I worry that they would lock themselves into a certain roster would be, they wouldn't have the flexibility to make other moves. And it kind of applies to these situations too. I'm not looking at their cap space. I don't have it right in front of me. But I think generally for a lot of those teams, if, you know, Jamichael Green gets offered a near-max contract by the Nets and he signs that offer sheet, if you match that, you might lock yourself into a roster that isn't close to where it

needs to be. And it would hurt to move on from that guy, but it ultimately might be more advantageous to you to do that. And that's what the Nets need to be hoping for with some of these guys is because I think Jim Michael Green is a really good player and he can be even better in a new situation. And he was another guy who was on Orlando's target list. Those guys, you got to have target them. If you're a lower-end team, pay a little bit more and restricted for agency for guys that you think can be better in new situations with more role and more opportunity. Patrick Patterson's another one. Patterson's a little older, though. But I think he was on Orlando's list as well, wasn't he?

Yeah, but he's another one that you could go out and you could offer a bunch of money to and get, probably. Because now, if you're the raptors with the amount of money that you've sunk in and you got that, you know, you do you. You suspect Abaka, right? I mean, they're going to end up paying a Baca. You think. What do you think about Jamichael Green, Chris? Let's say he's getting like 27 minutes a game right now.

If he's like a 33 minutes per game guy and he's getting more shots, more opportunity, what kind of player do you think he is, you know, when he is more responsibility? Well, here's the thing. I mean, obviously I know the kid well. He is a great, great kid. So I am a little bit clouded by it, right? That being said, I would be surprised if Jamichael Green got a, over $12 million from somebody.

I would say that's the ceiling. And I think around 10. That's penis. Yeah. I don't know how many teams. I don't know how many teams Jamichael would start for. He starts for the Grizzlies because they want Zach Randolph coming off the bench. You go look at the numbers.

The numbers are not crazy, Kevin. They're not. Evan Turner got like 18 million last year. But that was dumb. Yeah, but that was dumb. I don't know. You know what I mean? That was dumb.

It might have been. I mean, I'm not arguing. What do you mean it might have been? With Michael Green, he's a guy who hasn't yet received that opportunity to be like a guy on the team. I mean, he's just one of the guys. He's kind of just another guy right now on the Grizzlies. But does he have the capability to be one of the guys?

No, no, no. He's a role player. He is an outstanding role player. But no, he is not a guy. You are not going to look up with this some kind of like massively expanded role with way more touches that you would get some. radically different player. He would be wildly miscast for somebody to spend

a boatload of money on him and expect him to be a star. But those guys are super valuable when they're you know, teams need role players. You got your stars and your role players. Somebody has got to not get the touches. You know what I mean? Not have the plays run for them. Be the guy that does all the other stuff.

And I think he is best cast in that role. That's my opinion. That's fair. I think a lot of people probably feel exactly the same as you do, but I have a feeling there'll be at least one team out there who fails otherwise. And all it takes is one team to pay up to really drive that price up. And maybe the Grizzlies wouldn't match if they feel the same as you do. But I feel like there's got to be a team that looks at him and it's like, hey, this guy can be

much more than what he is. And maybe that team is dead ass wrong and they're going to regret that mistake years from now. But hey, sometimes you have to gamble and sometimes it can work out. Let me ask you about when you put together this power rankings list of bad teams, Did you do it because on one end, I don't think you did it just by talent, right? Like, you clearly took other things into account, I would guess, in deciding. Because just talent-wise, like, what they've got, I don't think that you can put, I don't think you can put, I know you swear by Sam Hinky. I don't think you could put Philadelphia above Minnesota.

And Rishon Holmes. Shout out Rishon Holmes. Shout out to Rishon Holmes. I don't think you can put Philadelphia over Minnesota. Not when we have already seen what Towns is and what Wiggins is. And I still have Chris Dunstock and just talent-wise with those two guys and developing into the future. There's just way too many question marks with the Philly thing, Kev. Sartz looked great.

Embed has not been able to stay on the floor at all. couldn't even make it through this season, and he was sitting out games and his minutes were restricted, and we haven't seen Simmons play yet. So who knows? So why would you be more hopeful if you are Philadelphia than Minnesota going forward? Multiple reasons. For one, look at their list of draft picks they have coming up, and I know their picks, there's no guarantees with picks, but at the same time, they could have two picks in the top five this year

if that Lakers pick falls out of the top three. They could have two top five picks in one of the best drafts we've seen in recent years. They have the King's pick coming up in 2019. They have all of their own picks. They have loads of second rounders that they can package together and move into the first round

or use in certain deals to really pounce on deals to get players or they can draft and stash players and maybe some of those guys turn into something special. They have so many picks that they can, I think, they can really do whatever they want.

Them and the Celtics and even the sons to an extent have quite a few picks. Those three teams can do so much with their picks that I think they have more flexibility than most teams in the league in terms of their assets. And not only that, they have a lot of cap space too.

And I know Philly might not be like this destination right now, but maybe next summer, if Embed stays healthy, if Ben Simmons comes back and looks great, if they get two top five picks coming in, suddenly they might look like a pretty competitive team that's not that far off. And I think they have a lot of talent on that roster. They're deep.

I think they have the ability to play different ways. Whereas with the wolves, Carl Towns is, you know, if you're starting a franchise with a guy in today's NBA, you're probably picking Towns because Towns are Davis because with those guys, that Towns has stayed healthy. Davis has had only lingering issues in Embed. Everybody knows the deal with him. He's gotten hurt. But with Towns, he's a stud.

He's unbelievable. Chris Dunn, I do like him. I totally agree that people should not give up on him. Do not give up on Chris Dunn. Young point guards take time and don't look at his age at all. He had a really unusual developmental time in college with the injuries he's had. Don't give up on him. Andrew Wiggins, he's good and he's getting better.

I still don't love Andrew Wiggins. I don't love his feel for the game. I think he can do a lot for you as a scorer, but I'd like to see him do more. Whereas with guys in this draft, man, I think Philly has the ability to do so much. Wolf's fans should feel hopeful too, man. That's why they're number two. But I think Philly, their picks put them over the top for me. Okay, when do you think Philly should be back in the playoffs?

I don't know. Because I know this is what you love the future. How about this? You love the future. If Chicago trades Butler and Indiana trades Paul George, how about next season? If Philly makes a free agent signing this summer, a veteran player or they make a trade, someone that can help them right away, why not next season? Why can't they win 36 games and slip into the 8th seat next year?

Okay. At what point? Well, obviously you're counting on Embed being healthy, right? Yes, yes, which is a lot to count on. You would admit is a massive if. Yes, it's a massive if, which is disappointing to say. It's a sad thing to say, but it's true. It's a massive if.

I'd be delusional to say otherwise. Okay. So that being said, I'm just saying, like, you're always talking about the future and the process and everything and this young talent. I'm just saying like, okay, give me a timeline. When is this supposed to be good? Are we going to keep talking about, and then they got draft picks? And the draft picks take a long time to develop.

I mean, young teams don't win typically, right? Like, young teams lose. And then it takes a while, and then you can add a vet here, add a vet there. And maybe you're right. Maybe you pair a couple vets up in that starting lineup with some of their young guys, and maybe they can get some assets. I mean, they've killed Okafore stock. You know that.

They've killed that. They got shit return for Noel. So it's one thing. The guy that did the process, he ain't the one maneuvering it anymore, right? You're counting on Calangelo getting it done from here on out. Yeah, and that's a lot to count on. I think it was a questionable decision to not deal Noel or Okafore last summer. I know Calangelo wanted to try to build leverage.

but everybody knew that he wasn't going to be able to do that. And what they got back wasn't significant. It was the fake first round pick and Justin Anderson, Anderson, who I like. But, you know, with Anderson, he's one of those guys who's a jumper away from being a productive player. And that first round pick is simply going to turn into two seconds. All right, Kevin, let me ask you about another team that was on your list, which is that third team, the Pelicans. Are we a believer in the Boogie Davis tandem? I'm not.

But at the same time, you know, the past. two weeks or so, it's looked a whole lot better than those first two weeks did, and that's encouraging. I think the way Elvin Gentry is using him, using them together has been a little bit better. And so, you know, looking ahead, you know, if you're a Pelicans fan, you got to be thinking after a summer with a good offensive coach like Gentry, ability to use these guys in creative ways, dynamic ways, put them, put those dudes in the best positions to succeed. You've got to feel optimistic. Davis and Cousins are two of the best big. man in basketball, and those guys, just the fact that they're together, have the chance to be

great. They need more, but those guys give you a chance, and Pelicans fans should be feeling pretty good. You can go check out Kevin's article about the bad NBA team's power rankings at the ringer.com. We've got to take a quick break, and then I want to ask you about this East Playoff race, because we only got about a week left in the season, and there's a lot of teams going to be jockeying four position. We'll kind of talk about playoff odds and where at least the formula let's say these teams are going to end up now with a couple of games left. We'll do that after these words.

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Top 3% of data users may notice reduce speeds, activate HD feature, otherwise video typically streams at 480P, web-enabled mobile device and qualifying service required. Major League Baseball trademarks use with permission. Blackouts and other restrictions apply. See terms for D. The show is also brought to you by Tune In. Major League Baseball is back, and as the new season's underway, the Ringer Podcast Network, has baseball fans covered with the Ringer MLB show playing exclusively on the Tune In app for the entire month of April.

On top of that, the podcast network has partnered with Tune In to give baseball fans a free 30-day trial of Tune-in premium to listen to every home call of every Major League baseball game around the league. Catch the Ringer MLB show only on Tune in during April with your premium subscribers. Listen to MLB games on Tune In. Just go to tunein.com slash ringer and subscribe. Download the tune in app and start listening today. Tune in, your everything audio app. All right, Kevin, so I was looking at the playoff race and the eighth spot in the east.

And in fact, well, obviously it can all move around. But that eight spot is certainly up for grabs. You've got the heat that are right there. The Hornets are a game back. The Pistons are a game back. from the heat and the Pacers who are tied. That being said, the heat schedule the rest of the way is rough. You've got at Charlotte, at Toronto, at Washington, Cleveland, and Washington.

And the heat had been an awesome story coming back from what began the season, whether like a 10 and 31 record or whatever it was, to now have a chance. But looking at their schedule and they lost their last two games and those five games ahead, I don't think they're going to get there. And I went and looked and the playoff odds as of right now, at least that formula that ESPN puts together, they've got Indiana making it and making it as the eight seed. And their schedule is not that easy. It's Toronto and then Milwaukee, two loseables, at Orlando, at Philly, Atlanta to close out. I mean, the heat have been a great story, but I don't think they're going to be able to maneuver.

through these last five games and be able to hold on to their spot. What do you think? No, I agree. They've really fallen off without Dion Waiters. We think about how great he was for them, you know, from the middle of January until he got hurt. He was one of the reasons why they made that charge. And that's a funny thing to say when two years ago, you know, people just kind of used

to laugh at the thought of Dion Waders being a contributor. But he was one of the main reasons why they were making a charge towards the playoffs. and they've lost their best late game score. And we've talked about this before. What's the hardest thing to find in basketball? It's fourth quarter scoring. And that's what Deon Waiters was providing for them. Whereas with the Pacers, they have Paul George who just went toe to toe with

LeBron James and double overtime. He was outstanding. He's playing, he played in March like the superstar you would like to see over the course of the season, averaging like 27 or 28 points per game. He's been incredible. And he's a big reason why they're kind of favorite. in my eyes for that spot, but you can't discount the Charlotte Hornets, man. They are making a big late run.

Seven and three in their last 10 games. Cody Zeller is playing well like he always does. Kemba Walker is continuing his All-Star season. I think they have a chance to really slip in, and I believe they have the tiebreaker over at least two of those three teams ahead of them in the standings. Well, they've got a huge game tonight at Washington, which is worth keeping up with. It's big. Before that showdown, that Miami Hornets game is monstrous tomorrow night for playoff implications.

They get a tough schedule. Then they face Boston, Milwaukee, and Atlanta to close it out. It's going to be hard for them, but they're really on a role right now. They would have to steal this one at Washington tonight and then beat Miami tomorrow night. It's tough. Then you're going to beat three playoff teams to close out. It's tough. And then you got to pray.

That's why I favor the Indiana Pacers. And what you would have to do if you're them is you would have to hope Toronto somehow loses, or I'm sorry, the Pacers somehow lose to Toronto, Milwaukee, and Atlanta. They lose three of these last five. It's still not there. Actually, you still wouldn't get there unless you still wouldn't get there. Unless you caught a win that you're just that you would not be expecting like at, what. Washington tonight or Boston or Milwaukee. So, I mean, they're up against it with only a few games left.

Yeah, Pacers look like they're in pole position right now, just given their last four or five games compared to the other teams and their schedules. Who would you rather see? And interestingly enough, the playoff odds have Cleveland as the number one seed instead of Boston. So let's say it's Cleveland. Would you rather see Cleveland versus Indiana or would you rather see Cleveland versus Indiana? or would you rather see Cleveland versus Charlotte? Cleveland versus Indiana for sure.

Just for the LeBron James, Paul George factor. Charlotte has a lot of fun players, but they don't have the star power like Indiana does with Paul George. So, you know, no doubt for me, it's Cleveland versus Indiana. What about you, Chris? I think, well, I prefer the heat, I think, right, with Draggett and Whiteside. And the whole Spolster thing and LeBron having to go back to Miami,

that would be my favorite of the matchups, I think, would be Cleveland, Miami. If you just told me, all right, you can pick from the rest of these teams who ends up with that seed. Not because I think they'd knock off Cleveland, but I like the storylines probably a little bit more. And they might be able to put- On Waiters potentially coming back to leading to keep back in a historic comeback in the first round of the playoffs. That would be fun. Well, how about this? You'd have him going back to Cleveland, the team that discarded him.

That's a good point. It'd be the frigging waiters revenge tour. It's a good point. Right? So you got this heat team that just like went bananas, the last half of the season, record-wise, waiters who's got revenge in Cleveland and LeBron having to go back into Miami. Like, I don't know, man. I kind of, that would be my, that would be what I would choose of the team's remaining.

Huh? 4-0 Cleveland. Sweet. Oh, come on. No revenge for you, Deion. Not this year. They win a game. They win a game.

I don't know. Yeah, Cleveland would dick around. I still feel like Cleveland's going to turn it on. Cleveland's going to flip a switch once they cut down their rotation. They're just going to blow teams out, especially in the first round, first round, maybe the second round. Conference finals, we'll see what happens by that. And then it would be, as of now, as of now, in terms of the full. formula says that then we would get Boston, Atlanta, and then we would get Toronto, Chicago, and Washington, Milwaukee.

I'm not crazy about these matchups for first round. It looked better about three weeks ago, I thought. I don't know, man. The East, it's really all about those top four teams anyway. All the interesting playoff stuff is happening out West, I think, honestly. I mean, like you said, Atlanta, Atlanta's kind of blah. Chicago, they're really playing strong this past month without Dwayne Wade. But what happens when he gets back? If you look at their numbers, if you look at Chicago's numbers prior to Wade's injury, they're playing about as well right now as they were before the injury when Wade was off the court. So if you look at the numbers with Butler and Rondo on the court,

they were about a plus five. And with Wade, they were in the minuses. Whereas now, without Wade, the whole team is like Brown plus five or plus six. He was kind of the third wheel between those three guys, I think. Or at least they're better with two of them more than they were with three. And when he comes back, you would assume Hoyberg is going to pair those guys together again. He's not going to stagger those lineups perhaps like he should. And that could destroy them in the playoffs.

I would say it's not about, and this is a lesson that's been learned over the years by many a team. It is not necessarily about the talent of the individual player. as much as the way basketball works. And you remember if we go back, we circle back around to the Jim Michael Green thing, right? You have to have guys on your team that don't have to have the ball, right? And sometimes just taking that element out of the situation forces other guys that should have the ball. They have the ball more, right? And so I think Minnesota play better without Levine.

All right. And I don't think that's because Levine is a crap player. He's clearly not. You know, I saw this happened years ago when the Grizzlies traded Rudy Gay and they took him out of the lineup and they added a guy in Tashon Prince, a guy that didn't need the ball. Is Rudy Gay a good player, though? Huh? I mean, is Rudy Gay good? I feel like.

You don't think he's an individually good player? Yeah, he's good. Yeah, I guess, I guess I might sound like LeVar Ball hair. But the goal is to win the game. And I think some good players, good individual players, aren't necessarily good in a team context. But you would say if we want it, you would say the majority of people, if I said, okay, who is the better player, Rudy Gay or Tashon Prince? They would say Rudy Gay. But it's not the way.

Are we talking old Tashon Prince or like. I'm talking about in the form that he was in. We're talking about the last three years of his career for going to sakes. You know what I mean? Brutigay. Brutigate. Tachianar Prince has not been great the last three years. He's like, but, but, you know, my point being that, like, you know, like Lavaar touches on, like a lot of people touch on.

Some good players, they're just, they don't contribute to winning. And with Zach Levine, he might score a lot of points, but he doesn't do a whole lot else besides that. But my point with this is Chicago is not, it is because they have Rondo and they have Butler, who are both guys that are going to need touches and are going to have the ball in order to be successful, right? And it's hard to have three guys that need the ball all the time in order to be good at what they do. It's just a bad mix. We knew that going into the season that it wasn't a great mix. You know what I mean?

So taking one of them out of the equation and then being, I tell you this, I wouldn't have been surprised if they took Butler out of the equation and they might have been a little better. As weird as that sounds. It's more about the mix, I think, than it is an indictment of Dwayne Wade. That's what I'm saying. That's a big point, too, because you think about, you know, this applies to everything, you know, in every sport really. Situation affects success, the destiny of these players so much more than we think.

Like, we talk about steals and busts in the draft. We can talk about how Malcolm Brogden is exceeding for the bucks and how he's a rookie of the year candidate. But if he lands on another team, he may not play 100 minutes this year. And we'd be thinking, oh, why didn't they draft so-and-so, who happens to be getting opportunity? Why would they draft old man Malcolm Brockton? That might have been the conversation if he had landed in a different situation. It largely depends so much on how these guys are used and the systems and the situations that they're placed in.

And with Chicago, I think you're 100% right, Chris, that they would have been better off really at the beginning of the year staggering these guys. Maybe it would have been a hard sell to say to Dwayne Wade, hey, we want to bring you off the bench or to say to Rajan Rondo at the start of the year, we want to bring you off the bench. But it might have been for the best for them. And I think we've seen this past month with the way they're playing without Wade, how much easier it's for Fred Hoyberg to structure his rotations.

Instead of having three negative shooters on the floor, they have only two. And it just so happens that that whole team has gotten super, super, super, super hot this past month. Is that sustainable? Probably not. They probably flame out early in the playoffs. But at the same time, I think a big contributing factor has been the ability for Hoyberg to structure his rotations in an easier way and putting these guys into better situations. You always have to be able to get guys to sacrifice, right? It was the story of Chris Bosch in Miami. It's been the story of Kevin Love in Cleveland. It now becomes the story of Steph Curry in Golden State, right? Like, you just got to, you have to sacrifice.

And sometimes, especially on the mediocre teams, you don't have guys, you know, especially if you're not that good. It's a little easier when you've got a chance at the title for guys to sacrifice. But it just, it never worked. And so, yeah, taking one of them out of the equation probably helped things a lot. Let me ask you about the Western Conference real quick. And I say this only because if we're looking at the playoff odds right now, the formula would tell us that it would be Warriors, Portland, Spurs, Grizzlies,

Houston, OKC, and then the Clippers, Utah, with the Clippers actually getting the four seed instead of the five. And I just wanted to hone in on that particular matchup. Obviously, all those matchups are fun ones. But that Clippers, Utah won. Do you think, if I told you, would home court advantage in that particular series determine who you would pick to win that series? No. Either way. Nope.

So you think Utah has beats the Clippers whether they're the four or the five? I think it'll be like a six or seven game series, but I would pick Utah, yes. Really? You're with L.A.? You think L.A. would win them that?

I just think they got... The Utah thing, I'm one of those, see it to believe it. They've got no playoff games under their belt, right? then the Clippers have like that. The Clippers have. It's fair.

I just think that they can beat you in so many different ways. Their ability to adapt, play different styles. I think they're built to have a little short run in the playoffs. Whereas with the Clippers, man, like they've been better the last week or so. And they obviously have the star power with Chris Paul, DeAndre Jordan, Blake Griffin. But man, I just think Utah's ability. Utah could give a team a run in the second round too, I think. I don't think they would advance past the second round.

I don't think they have enough, but I do think they have a team structure that can allow them to really, you know, push a team in a series. Clippers would have the two best guys on the court still. In DeAndre and Chris Paul? Or Blake Griffin and Chris Paul? Yeah, Blake and Chris. Where would you rank Rudy Gobert of all the players in each roster? Just out of curiosity. Ahead of DJ or behind DJ?

I think I'd rather have Gobert than Jordan. Okay. How about Gordon Hayward? I would rather have Hayward than Gobert. I'd put Hayward third. That's a pretty good team right there. I would put Hayward third, Gobert 4, Jordan 5, I think. That's fair.

I'm doing this off the top of my head now. I'm not, I don't have all the numbers pulled up. I don't have time to make some kind of great argument, but just my gut reaction when you ask me that is I'm going into a playoff series. I want Paul, then Griffin, then Hayward, then Gobert, then Jordan. I think the Clippers have the edge up top, but I just think Utah's depth is far superior. I think, you know, the Clippers' top four is better than Utah's top four. But after that, I just think Utah blows them away with their job.

I think Liles, Johnson, Rodney Hood, Diyah, I think they have so many different players that can have big knights. Like Joe Johnson, granted, you know, he's 35 now, he can still have big knights that really put you over the edge in the playoffs. And the same way Crawford can for the Clippers. I think those two are balanced, but besides that, I just love Utah's bench, and I think that can be valuable for them in the first round.

And later rounds, when rotations get cut and only the top players are playing, then I don't think it might matter as much but first round maybe a little bit in the second round I think they're going to help them significantly Yeah and the other one that's kind of up for grabs It looks like Portland's got to be able to hang on to eight The other one that's up for grabs is obviously The Spurs or the Grizzlies and Oklahoma City

To see who would get the six And if it does hash out the way it looks right now Then it would I mean then you'd get the Westbrook versus Harden first round showdown Which Katie bar the door I mean you're talking about like can you imagine Can you fathom that man? if that turns out that way, and those two teams are playing in the first round against each other,

and we've spent the whole year debating this MVP stuff and looking at these two guys getting like triple doubles every night, if they just happen to match up in the first round of the playoffs. Woo! That would be fun. That's what I'm hoping for, man. That would be a good time? At the same time, looking ahead, would we want it to set up for Oklahoma City and Golden State in the second round? I think it's highly unlikely that OKC gets the four or five seed, though, at the same time.

point. So that's kind of just wishful thinking. But that would have been nice to see. All right. Well, by the time we next talk, we'll be a lot further along and figuring out who's going to be all of these different playoff matchups. And then we are only, you know, double-digit days away

or less than talking about playoff matchups between these teams. I guess it'll be by next weekend. We'll be starting to talk about all the playoff matchups and they'll be starting I guess a week and a half from now, right? Can't wait, man.

Saturday the 15th, I believe. Looking forward to that. So we've got 11 days. That's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. Thanks, Kevin. Hey, thank you, Chris. Go give us a rating and review on iTunes if you did what you're hearing, and we'll catch up with you on Thursday.

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