The Ringer NBA Show - The Mental State of the Modern Superstar With Logan Murdock | The Answer

Episode Date: April 2, 2022

Seerat is joined by The Ringer's own Logan Murdock to analyze how NBA superstars like Kevin Durant and Steph Curry navigate criticism and media accessibility. Next, they use their favorite scenes from the HBO show 'Winning Time' as a reference point to debate how great players from the past like Magic Johnson would've used social media to handle their public narrative and mental health.(19:53) They wrap up their conversation by examining the current state of Kevin Durant's relationship with Kyrie Irving.(38:23) Host: Seerat Sohi Guest: Logan Murdock Production Assistant: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are you ever curious what's going on behind the scenes in Hollywood? You watch a Netflix show or a Marvel movie and you wonder, why was that person in it? Why did this movie get made? I'm Matt Bellany, founding partner of Puck News, and I'm covering the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. With my new show, The Town, on the Ringer podcast network, I'm going to take you inside Hollywood with exclusive insight

on what people in show business are actually talking about. Multiple times a week, we're going to bring you short, Digestable episodes featuring some of the smartest people I know breaking down the hottest topics in entertainment to tell you what's really going on. Follow the town now and listen on Spotify. Sup, sup, sub, everybody, welcome to the answer podcast. We do not have Chris Ryan here with us today,

but we have the one man who has featured Steph, Draymond, and Kevin Durant in the last calendar year, in the last six months, actually. Logan Murdoch, welcome to The Answer. How you doing? I'm doing great, man. I'm viving. I got my Magic Johnson coaster for this episode, so I'm just, I'm vibing. Yeah. I don't know if people can see that, but I have it. It's here. Yeah, you got the winning time coaster. Yeah, great show. Awesome show. Today we're going to dive into, I think, the psychology of superstars, the state of the modern superstar, but we're also very lucky in that we're having an NBA history, Renaissance, moment.

right now organically we got winning time going on we got icons club i'm in my like just the psychology of great people sort of big right now so i'm super hyped to talk about your kevin durant feature that just came out came out yesterday right came out in thursday yeah yeah and we were talking before this and we just love we we both love the place that kevin durant is in right now so tell us a little bit about that i was very surprised because i hadn't seen kevin prior to this since toronto 2019. I hadn't seen him. We talked like a little bit, but I hadn't seen him and I was fully expecting him to be very frustrated, very mad, very moody and all the above. And then I talked to him and he's like the most zend out I have ever seen him since covering him. And I've been around him

for about nine, ten years now. And it was like the most I've seen him just be chill. And it was it was It was pretty cool. I was happy to see that he was in a good place. It seemed like he was in a nice little bag. Yeah, which is surprising considering all of the hoopla around the Netsis season. But it seems like he's learning the important lesson that you just can't control everything. But I thought it was really interesting because it's like a different version of Zen than I think you'd expect from people. Like he's just kind of like, yeah, I'm still going to talk shit on Twitter.

He had that thing like, I think it was like a week ago. I think I saw it. I think I saw it on TikTok actually. Like there was a fan that was just talking shit to him. He was saying like, Katie, you need to take over the game. And Katie's like, I think you need to actually just sit down and shut the fuck up. I was at that game. I'm pretty sure that was with Spencer Dinwiddie game when Spencer Dinwiddie hit the three to win the game.

But before that, like Kevin went on like a rampage down the stretch. So after he told the dude to shut the fuck up, he goes toe to toe with Luca. And it's like one of the great displays in regular season basketball history. It was really good. So for him to do that and just be chilling. And then after that clip surfaced, he quote tweeted the clip with like a meme like, damn, I got to give bread back to the league. Like I know I'm going to have to give a fine.

So he's like, it's a person that is like just handing money like in shame. Like, damn, I've been caught. And that just speaks to where Kevin is right now where you see all these superstars. You see the LeBron's. You see the Janus. You see the warriors. you see all these people that are trying to take control of every situation that they're in right now. When you see that, and historically speaking, you've seen stars do that.

He's kind of taken a step back, which can, you know, result in some catastrophes. You know, it could result, it could go bad, but he's chilling right now. Like, he's fly being right now. It's interesting to see. Is this just like superstar exposure therapy, kind of where everything he does is going to get criticized and talked about anyway so he's just learned well the piece is called kevin durant is learning to let go but it's almost like you just he had no choice like it's just always going to be like this and if he wants to be himself and the same kind of goes for kairi right like there's a place and you talk to

kairi for the story we'll talk about that friendship for sure but there is a point in the story where katy was saying you know kairi is who he is and the problem is really just that like people don't want to accept him for who he is yeah and katy is kind of in a similar place too like oh like get get like stop you know, stop tweeting and doing all this stuff. In reality, like, one thing about KD, and this goes for Kyrie too, none of that stuff has ever been able to seep onto their on-court play. Like, you could hypothetically make a case for some guys where like, oh, they, you know, they start trash talking and then they get in their head and, like, it changes, like,

their emotional relationship with a game. And it's like, for him, it's always seemed to channel itself in healthy ways, at least for, like, on court. I would push back on, like, it doesn't affect their on-court play. think it does affect their on-court play. Specifically, Kevin, I haven't been around Kyrie enough to know, but specifically with Kevin, it does affect his on-court play, but in a constructive way, right? I take the game, I forgot who they played, the Warriors played after the news came out

about him and Jarmond, but he scored like 50 points, right? Like, he was just in a zone. So he's better. Yes, he's better when he gets called out of his name or called out in general. But, like, the biggest stars and the ones that we all remember are the. ones that respond constructively to criticism because they always get affected by it because they all read the shit i go back to it's not just kevin go back to like our winning time kareem abduja bar in the i think the 84 finals after the memorial day massacre goes and they called him wash they

called him all these things what does he do he goes out in game two and beats the celtics right same with like magic with tragic johnson he cut they channel it differently that separates like these super duper duper stars from like the really really good players and kevin and kairie is have mastered that the great ones mastered there is a you've seen episode four right yeah a lot of people listen to this on on monday so episode five will be out by then so this is going to be the second last episode for most people but there was like this moment where kareem is riding in the car this montage where like everybody's kind of riding in the car and they are listening to different versions of the criticism that they're all getting and they're riding training camp and they're all like

there's different varying levels of nervousness. Like Norm Nixon and Magic both kind of think they deserve the starting spot. And they're kind of like, magic's like talking at the radio in this way of like, ooh, I'm going to get you. Norm, you can tell us a little bit more stressed. Kareem is just silent. And, you know, there's a woman riding with him in the car saying like, oh, I'll change it to something else.

And he's just like, leave it. He's like, I want to embrace this here. Like you sicko. It's really hilarious because sports, especially professional sports and American professional sports is the only avenue in life where you're constantly getting criticized to your

face subliminally. You know? Like, every time it's some sublimity, but always like these guys, all they do is they watch NBA today and they watch first take and then they watch Countdown before they go play. They read and look at themselves

constantly. You've been in locker rooms before. Before it was NBA today, it was a jump. Before it was, it was, they always got ESPN on. And it's only, it's either going to put you one or two ways. It's going to put you in a Zen mode. Like, for now it's put Kevin. It'll make you be out like fictional Norm Nixon, where you're just wilding.

The Norm Nixon thing is funny because we know he's eventually going to get traded. I don't know. Maybe people that own winning time don't notice, but like, he doesn't see it through. The one when I realized it was really good was like, after the first episode, I was like, man, I really hope they drag magic. Yeah. Like, we already don't know. Right, right.

Right. But it's funny just how you're able to evolve with these things because I think Kevin just doubled down on everything he's always done. And I can respect that in a lot of ways. I think that he was a bit unsure of himself in OKC and also in Golden State. And I think now that, you know, just from my vantage point and knowing him for a minute, he's just chilling. He just wants to be a part of the conversation. He wants to be just a normal person like everybody else, which is something he's always wanted. but I think he's more comfortable in his skin at 33. Yeah. Well, you also profiled Steph. I think late February, right? Yeah. I think Steph is like what I think a lot of people look at and say like, oh, like, that's what it looks like to be at peace with all this stuff, right?

Which in his case, totally is, right? Like he has this relationship with criticism that just seems a little bit different, right? It's not to say that it doesn't bristle him or anything. But I think there's almost like this sort of like subconscious thing happening where when people are saying that to Katie like hey like why why like the online stuff or just like the talking shit stuff where it's it's almost like saying like why don't you process things more like him right and maybe that's where some of the self-doubt came from maybe not even necessarily for him it's a very common thing in our society right now to want to process things in like the most

positive possible way i think for for kD it's almost like he's he's gotten to this place of like no, I actually do have a bit of a chip on my shoulder. Like, if you talk to me, I'm going to talk back. And that's, like, the best way for me to do it. And I don't really care if you think that it's wrong. And I think we have a lot of, like, fake Zen going on right now or two. People are, like, bothered by stuff, but they don't want to act bothered. So it's like, they just, like, hold it all in.

And that's when I think things can get bad. I think that's why Kevin in general is like, I mean, even through all the Twitter stuff, I think he's universally loved because he feels like someone you know. Yeah, he presents himself as an actual person. Yeah, and like, I would say this, and they're both, like, great people to, like, cover and things like that, but Steph, there always seems to be a barrier. I think we talk about this all the time, and I've told Kevin this and Steph, like, I think Steph is like Michael Jackson, and I think that Kevin is Marvin Gaye when it comes to

stardom, right? Where if you go look out, like, you can go out and touch Marvin. You know, Marvin will be out on the street, you know? Michael is just like on a different plane of fame where, yeah, he's outside, but it's just, it's just different. And there's a lot that has to go into like the maintenance of the persona. Exactly, right? And you, you always feel like you know Kevin.

You don't always feel like you know Steph even after he's given you so much, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think that was a lesson I learned both of them. It felt like when I was talking to Kevin, it was, you know, you're seeing someone, you know, it's just an updated time. I'm going to go see this person. When you see Steph, it's like, oh shit, it's Steph. It's just different. I don't know how to, I'm

just doing the stream of consciousness, but it's just different between those two people. Yeah, well, it seems like that's what Katie wants to be too. Like, he wants to be able to walk around and just be himself and not have to be. Well, you know, he's obviously 6-11, I'm sure that's got to be difficult for him. He's not Steph famous, but he's still, he's still really

famous but it seems like he almost prefers that yeah and was funny because like when i was at his crib doing the piece and like watching the like reporting it out i don't know if i put it in the story enough but it's like house is very massive and it has every amenity that someone would need but i couldn't help but think like i can go outside and like go chill and you know i can just be me and have my anonymity but when kevin goes outside like he has to have all his amenities like right here because He's never going to blend in. It's never not going to be Kevin Durant. Like the house might be big, but this is a square footage that he has to exist in.

So it better be big. Exactly. Whereas even Steph, like as famous as he is, is, you know, like 6-3. You know, he looks like another normal. He just put a hoodie on and stuff like that. And he'll be, he could be fine for a little bit. Sunglasses mask up. Exactly.

But I don't know. It just felt weird to see, like, knowing that I could leave and I know Kevin can't go anywhere because she's always going to be KD. Man, one thing that's really stood out in the last few weeks to me. has just been the profound loneliness of the experience of being a superstar. The superstar is the original sad boy. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of an interesting thing too, right?

Like, we are now in this moment where I think there's like concern about the trajectory of like the millennial superstar and like why are they sad. And you know, Katie's talked about this too. Like why are so many people obsessed with my mental health right now, right? Like why are people trying to figure out whether or not I'm happy? Yeah. That's just a weird thing to experience in general. Like going back and listening to like icons club, they just dropped like the dream team episode today, right?

Just started that really good. Yeah, I haven't finished it yet. But right now it's in this place where this is the first time that a lot of these superstars were interacting with each other. This is 1992 and Larry and Magic had by then developed a relationship. But it was because of a converse commercial that they did together that like, you know, like it, there was a lot leading up to that commercial that could have made it not happen. and they seem to have a lot of genuine animosity towards each other at the time. And the thing that really sticks out to me in that and then the Showtime doc as well too,

where they're in training camp and there's like these scuffles going on and there's like different clicks is that the stars of the past just didn't seem to trust each other in the same way that they do now. Like that's kind of what Icons Club is essentially about, right? It's about the few that could understand what this experience is like. And at that time, it seemed like it took some sort of moment. For Magic and Larry, for example, for them to realize that they actually had way more in common and that they could be kind of confidants to each other and that nobody else is going to understand what they were going through.

And, you know, it seems like they kind of, like even to provide guidance and stuff, like, you know, the retired players would wait until they were retired. and that seems to kind of be over, right? Like, there is an understanding, you know, from Kevin Durant's part of like, yeah, James Hardin didn't want to be part of this team anymore, and that is what it is, and I can't take it personally. And he understands that because he's been in that position before. It made me think about the All-Star selection this year with Katie and LeBron on TNT,

and how Katie was just so not into it at all. Like, you know, it was right after the Hardin trade, and you know, like, the TNT guys are going to try to troll Katie and try to get him to say something. he just comes in completely straight face and he looks like, you know, you can read that is a little bit miserable, but to me, it kind of like, to me that Red is like, he knows what's going to happen here. He knows that they want him to say something about Hardin or maybe Kyrie, and he's decided that, you know, whatever he might do privately, like, like, in your piece, like, there's a, there's a line that, you know, Kyrie says, like, yeah, I know he talked to me

about the fact that I wasn't playing because of the vaccine. Like, I know, like, you know, like, he was frustrated. We talked about it. But he wasn't going to go out. and publicly say anything. There is this sort of understanding that they have of each other. And that to me, I think that develops way earlier now than it did for like the previous stars. It's funny because it gets romanticized that, you know, these stars didn't talk to each other in the 80s and the 70s.

Also, I think we forget, like back then before we were born, because you know me and you were like 12, before we were a long time before we were born. They were sending letters since like in 85 to each other, right? Like they weren't talking on. It was hard to get someone on the phone. back then, right? It was so hard, so you were a lot more tribal back then, whereas I think Kevin's a great case study of this, you could hollad anyone and you're still going to be homies.

Like, we're in an era where there's so many, like, long distance friendships and relationships because you can talk to anybody at any moment, right? And I think that that's just the natural evolution. But when it comes to more understanding, yeah, like, it's easier to understand this level of superstardom right now because we feel a lot closer to it. Like, we feel a lot closer to a Kevin Durant super stardom because he's ever present than we do about like Steph Curry's who's like on a different planet of stardom, if that makes sense.

It's just different. Yeah. It's different. Like, Steph's stardom is on the, like, the old school stardom, like the Whitney Houston stardom, you know, like you're a star for whatever reason. That's how it was. There was no version of just, like, being yourself. Right?

Yeah. And I think that like, and I think one thing I try to get across the piece. Kevin is like one of those guys. And this is just me, you know, like speaking what I think. I think he's one of those guys that wants to be one of the guys, but his talent dictates that he'll never be one of the guys. He could never do it because he's so good. Only other person that understands him is probably like at this league right now

is probably LeBron or Steph, right? Like that's probably in Janus. That's probably it, right? And you can't talk to them every single day. But those are the only people that can, like, really relate to his combination of skill and starting. Yeah, or Kyrie Irvin. Or Kyrie Irving. Yeah, exactly.

Like, I don't know if you, like, necessarily relate that much to a guy like Janice, who has not been criticized the way that KD has, who hasn't done the thing of leaving. And then, you know, like all the things that come with that, too. Yeah, for sure. It was funny. I was interested, like, we're talking about Kevin and Kyrie's relationship. I was fast. I'm fascinated by it.

It's something that, like, I was very surprised. Because, again, I'm thinking because, and I said this to Kevin when we were interviewing, I'm like, yo, if Rajah went to half of my, to the podcast, I would be pissed and not fuck with him, right? I told Kevin, and I'm like, how does that work with you and Kyrie? And he's like, yo, man, what you see is what you get with Kyrie. I had to accept that this is the journey that he's going on. And when I tell you they look like BFFs in Memphis,

they look, they look, it seemed like a big ass family. And I was very surprised by that. Yo, like this is a place where of all of their collective decisions that I feel like I can understand the absolute most. There's like, okay, there's winning rings, right? But there's winning rings with your best friend. And like doing anything with your best friend. No, actually just playing with your best friend.

Anything with your best friend. Just my threshold for things that, I would allow my best friend to do or just discomfort that I would go through for the sake of my best friend. Obviously, you care about that person a lot. But yeah, I would give up a ring or two. Fuck yeah. Why not? Right?

Like, that's the dream. For sure. That's the dream. That doesn't make you any less competitive. That makes you human, bro. Yeah. Because I think he learned that, I think, and, you know, I'm speaking for him now, but I think Kevin learned that lesson in Golden State where he was like, yo, we want two rings who were dominant. and I still like this shit still wasn't like what I thought it was going to be it still wasn't

that yeah so I'm gonna go to I'm gonna go to Brooklyn and what the four the vibes are that kind of gets to I think what seems to bristle people about Katie is that he's honest about the fact that winning isn't the most satisfying thing and I don't think that's like a new phenomenon like like watching this documentary for example right like every trouble that these characters are going through early right now before they've proven anything I think what we're learning is that winning is not what is going to those issues. Winning is what masks the fact that they have issues that they need to deal with. Hold on. Can we just, let's

drop that bar, that was hard. This needs a moment of silence because that was a bar. No, but for real though, like you know, you have, you have like Jerry Bus who is just, you know, he can't have a real relationship with his daughter. Like, you couldn't have a real relationship of his wife because he runs away from

you know, anything negative, right? Like that's that, like we put now we put everything in a, like, in a mental health lens. So now we act like mental health is a new thing, right? But like there's a moment where Jerry is like kind of realizing that, or not realizing, but like he's kind of, he's being told that the financial forecast of this team is not excellent, right? And he's doing like the happy go lucky Jerry bus thing. Also side though, could you imagine like the Lakers were not financially stable at a point the Los

Angeles Lakers with Kareem and Magic? Well, they're going to be the Los Angeles ducks at that moment. So he like figures that out and he tries to his happy go lucky thing. He's like, oh, I'm going to go cannonball in the pool. to get this butter off of me, right? And then he drops into the pool and he's just screaming. Like, he's just screaming. He just doesn't want anybody else to see that, but he's stressed out. And that is toxic positivity right there. It's funny. Whenever you see a dynasty, and this is something that I do, there's like the YouTube where you look at every celebration at the end of, like, you know, like the last 30 seconds of every finals game, right? Every like clenching finals game.

All the answer listeners, go do me a favor. If there's a lot of, if there's, a dynasty, look at how less excited they are with every title. Yeah, that last golden state title. Exactly. That last golden state title. They were like shaking hands. It was like a golf celebration. Because all it is like you're just like prolonging the inevitable. That's why it's hard to win so much because the first one is like, yeah, we did it. We can't believe we did it. Back to back, it's like, oh, we're relieved. Like look at the Lakers back to back the three Pete of the early 2000. It's not as fulfilling as many times as you do it. I don't know what the anecdote to that is. Like, what is winning now? What is winning? I don't know. I think I just went on a tangent.

Was it ever like this thing that did all, like, or do we just think about it differently now? Do we actually like question the drive behind the people who are successful? I think we get romanticized so much and with fame and status and awards will give us. And like you said, it masks the fact that we got some fucked up shit in our life. Yeah. I think it was the second episode, but there's this scene of Magic Johnson at night alone at his apartment. And, you know, he's kind of alienated by the team. You know, basketball hasn't really started yet, so he doesn't have that at summer. You know, Cookie won't talk to him.

And like, there's a lot of people who want something from him around him. He can have all the sex in the world that he wants to. That's fine. But, like, he's calling his family and they're going to church. And you can tell in that moment, you can tell right in that moment. You can tell right in that moment that was a young person that really desperately just needed somebody to talk to who was trying to gather his bearings in a situation that he'd never been in before and just didn't really know what to do. Like he was just, he was lost, right? When you talk about that magic scene, there's another scene that happened in the last episode with him and Cookie where he just like, disrespect to Cookie's life.

And that wasn't cool. That was not cool. It was not cool, fictional magic. But I think another thing, though, like, and this relates to magic and Kevin, we're like, and most athletes from a certain. demographic. I would just say, you know, people from humble backgrounds, right? You get told this whole time throughout your life, yo, man, you go to the league, all your problems will be fixed. You go to the league, you get all this money, you can buy our way out the crib. That's what you have to believe in order to wake up every day. Right. Right. Like, that's what you have to tell yourself. I'll say,

even from my perspective, you get, and we talk about this offline, we don't got to get too much into it, but, like, you know, you wanted something so much for so long, and then you get it. And then you're like, well, now what? Like, this shit ain't fulfilling. I still got, you know. Yeah, life's still your life. Yeah. And then a pandemic happens. And I think that like people see this right now. I think that has a lot to do with MBA and all these things. The pandemic happens, you got to stop and think. Like, oh, it ain't as good as we thought it was or it's not as good as we think it is.

We have to get other shit right. Yeah, like there's other things that are that are important that deserve attention too. But yeah, you know, like, it was crazy watching that because in that, in that moment I was like, oh yeah, like you could use a therapist right now, right? Like, that would have been the move. Like if Magic Johnson was playing in 2022, it would be like, oh, yeah. Like, this would be an excellent moment to have somebody to talk to about all of your feelings. I think about that every time I read about a star from a certain time. Like, what if Marvin Gay had a therapist? Yeah, but would he, would he have been Marvin Gaye, though? That's kind of the, that's the question, right? Like, that's the thing that I think, like, we find ourselves, like, grappling with now, right?

like is there something to you know the darkness right like somebody like step might not be as he might not see things through that framework and be and have like a more pure relationship with a game simply from the fact that he never needed anything from it and like that's just not the case for for a lot of these guys right for most people and he also had like a blueprint of like knowing how to handle certain situations because like he was been around the game for like when you're around something since you were eight years old you kind of know all the nuance of that whereas like anyone else wouldn't I feel like the biggest takeaway I have from, like, all the content in the last few weeks is just, like, you know, there's always this question of, you know, why is a modern superstar like this? Why do they switch teams? Like, you know, why is Ben Simmons sitting out because of his mental health? Like, and that goes, like, across sports, too, right? Like, there is a question about that right now. And the more that I watch these, the more I'm just like, man, like, if it was socially or culturally acceptable for the athletes of the past,

to be doing those things or to have those resources, they would have. Because, like, we're just, like, we're seeing some struggle right now. People try to compare, like, especially NBA and all these other, like, specifically the NBA to its past. And it's like, bro, it's apples and oranges. They were flying commercial and fucking working out at high schools.

Like, Magic Johnson was trying to sit next to someone as tall as Sirius Sohey on a plane. It had no legroom, like zero legroom. Yeah, I mean, I think next to me he'd be fine. to stick next to you, it would be a problem. Like, you and magic, you can do it. There's a lot of talking going on, for sure, but yes. It was just a different time, though, right? But when you don't have access to these different things, it's different. Yeah, you're right, it is apples to orange. It's just hard to compare. But yeah, I just, I think like now that we, we see things through a certain lens, too, like, Jordan taking a break from basketball, I think, I think everyone

just accepted that sheerly because he won, right? Yeah. Like, he had already done the three rings, but like if you look back now at his reasons, it's like, well, he was grieving the death of his father. Sure. And he kind of got sick of it. Like, he was like, I've kind of, I've reached a mountaintop. So I need to do something else right now. You said this isn't fun anymore.

I went too much. Yeah. And he's probably tired. And there's just a level at which, like, I think that he knew that his love for the game was just different than it was. And that probably he wouldn't be able to dedicate himself to. the way that, you know, he was in the past. And we call that burnout now.

Yeah. It's a modern phenomenon, apparently, right? Do people realize, like, how hard it is to do something the same time for, like, that's why LeBron's run is so special? Because how do you do that? How do you continue to be great at that same level all the time? And we give him shit for taking two weeks off and going to Miami, like two years ago. By the way, that ended up being great for him.

Amazing. Great for the Caps, too. Like, everyone, yeah. I don't know. There's nothing new under the sun. Like, there's new devices and, like, you know, you deal with praise and, like, the backlash of that in a different way now than you used to. I got a question for you.

Do you think that social media is, like, has it helped or hurt the modern day star? That's a really good question. I would say, like, you used to have TV in the newspaper, right? I guess you can get away from it, right? Like, now it's not, I mean, it's a 12-month league now. And even if you are on vacation somewhere, you don't necessarily get to be as anonymous. And you still have your phone, right? Like you can't get away from things as easily as you used to.

But the other end of that is there's also just like so many more resources to like connect with people who are like-minded and maybe going through like similar things as you. And like you said earlier, like that's the reason these guys actually know each other. So maybe there's a level of community that's gained from that. Yeah. Any time anybody's have like an uncomfortable feeling, they feel like they can't do anything. I have to make a hard decision. Like it's just hard.

It's easier to do it when you know that other people have done it before you or that they're feeling the same thing. Yeah. So maybe that's like part of the reason why like these athletes are now instead of just, you know, putting, rubbing some dirt on on it all the time. Like they are actually saying like, hold up. Maybe I need to just take a step back right now. I don't know.

That's like the society question. Is social media good for anybody? I mean, it's about to break up the Utah Jazz. So, you know, that's a real thing. It broke up the Golden State Warriors. But would it have just been the media before that? like if it was the 90s or like the early 2000s, like Kobe and Shaq broke up.

That's fair. I just feel like with social, now it's so in your face in a way that you could have, you could have literally turned the television off or not have a newspaper subscription. Now like there's the aggregate of the aggregate and the aggregate of the aggregate, right? Like you're gonna see,

you could search your name now. Like could you search your name in the newspaper? No. Could you search your name? If you didn't see a, if you didn't see a clip in 1990, 95, you would have to wait or have someone tape it for you, bro. Like, there was no way you were going to see it unless you seeked it out.

On socials, like, it's just, it's a different thing right now. Like, you're going to see something about yourself. It would Google and all these things. It's different. Do you think that somebody like Kevin Durant might now have a better relationship with, you know, just doing what he wants to do because of social media in a weird sort of roundabout way where he has dealt with it enough to just know that you can't win? So you might as well just keep it moving and be you?

I think that it's two things. One, I think he's more comfortable in his skin. Like, he's still got burners. You know, he still has his Twitter page. But I think that it's one he's become more comfortable. And honestly, I think the discourse around him being on Twitter isn't as like live as it was when he was in Golden State. I think we don't appreciate how big of a spotlight Golden State put on everyone. Yeah, that's true.

There's only one other team that can even be compared to. and that's the 90s bulls. And like, is this chiller now because no one cares as much about what, like, it's funny,

it's cool when Kevin goes back and forth, but like it's, I don't think it's as polarizing as when he was in the pay. I was just like thinking about your social media question. I wonder if the hyper exposure is actually what leads itself to comfort kind of across all platforms

and the way that people are interacting with social media now too. Like, we just got out of a TikTok meeting, right? Yeah, I just never thought that that would come back full circle and be good for my job. But the way that you see people interact now, and it's been changing gradually over the years, where we've come from, you know, a TV anchor being like this dignified, like, Walter Cronkite type of person, to then, like, the TV anchor has, like, a little bit more personality. And then you get to, like, debate and people yelling at each other on TV. It's a fabrication of

a certain personality, but like you kind of had more personas on TV. And then with like YouTube, it just got more and more casual. It got more and more conversational. We are recording a podcast right now where we're just talking to each other the way that we would normally talk to each other. And I think there's just something to like where like when you're constantly surrounded by a camera, like I'm reading this book right now called, or I read, I'm rereading it because it's so good.

It's called The Merits of Invisibility. And the author talks about. seeing this group of students who actually became more engaged when the camera came on them. It wasn't like how like, I think we've kind of gone through the transition of, you know, before like when I had a camera on me, like, I'd be like, oh, get me, get me out of here, right? Like, you start, like, I'd get stiff and stuff, right? And then, like, you slowly, like, in media, and you'd be like, like, you get over it. But you see how younger people interact with, you know, being videotaped or, like, making

a TikTok or just, like, making a Snap Story. they're purposefully choosing the worst possible angle of their face while not wearing makeup and just talking in like the voice that they normally have. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe that's what's kind of like happening with a modern athlete too where they're just like, wait, come on. Like we can't care. It's just it's around too much.

We can't actually care and like also live our lives a way we want to. I push back. I don't, I think we're still in the age where the athletes care way too much. There's a lot of cloud chasing athletes out here. I'm not sure if you're aware. Even the stars. That's true. I mean, we live in a cloud chasing world, right?

Like, it just may be the way to get cloud has changed. I don't know. You're right. Yeah, you're right. Like, people are still people. Like, here's another thing, man. Like, there's cloud everywhere. Like, when it's just, I think it's just a different way of how we do it now.

We're in the age of the press release. The leaked or otherwise, right? Or, you know, I need the story out and I need to, like, I need to promote something. But it's weird, man, because we're going off on a tangent right here. But I don't think we give enough credit. to just how big it was when like first take came out in 2011, right? And how just how much of a shift that was. We went less from like going to like news gathering and things like that to opinionated stuff.

And we know this. There's a lot of people that speak on a lot of stuff that they don't know or have second and third and fourth hand knowledge of. And it's spoken of as gospel. I think that's what we're dealing with now with stars is like they're beefing off. But everyone's on to it. Are they? If you're a sports fan,

you're on to it. I think you know which reporter is plugged in with which player. That's what Reddit's trying to figure out. That's what the replies and like every sort of breaking news thing are trying to figure out is like, oh, like this, like you see it everywhere. Like you see like, oh, like, oh yeah, like, reported by Rich Paul or like, whatever. Like, there's just jokes and stuff. The more, I think the more you try to like put on the facade of all that stuff, like the more people are just going to see through it. So what's the remedy to that? Do you think that we're getting back to, like, an evolved traditional media landscape? I think it's fine. It's all theater. It doesn't really, like, we don't really need to do anything about it.

It doesn't actually matter, but it's all gravy. It's all basketball, right? It's not like, you know, when this stuff happens in other fields, maybe a bit more of a problem. Everybody who watches sports regularly is consuming a lot of media, right? Yeah. And through that, you develop a level of media literacy. Like, you just start to see certain patterns. To bring it around, Kevin has done that, like has brought it all the way around.

He has actually now monetizes tweeting and content making through podcasting like everyone else has now. Like now everyone has a voice. Draymond has his own podcast. Kevin has his own thing. I'm not going to be surprised if LeBron tries to do it in a few years, right? I wonder how that's going to be, you know, with just interviewing on, like, I don't know, man. I'm interested to see how that evolves because they talk so much, I'm going to say this, they talk so much shit about media and they want to just be us.

Let's put it for what it is. They want to be us. Well, they want to control the narrative. Like, they want to have their own say in, and, and, and, what's going on and they have access to it now. That was one thing that struck me to while reading the profile was like the similarities between Durant and Draymond. Like obviously they both have, they both have their own media platforms, right? Like they have interviewed each other and that was also, that was in your Draymond story. Just like can that get in the way of what the Warriors are trying

to build when when Draymond and Katie had that conversation kind of going back and going through like the spat that they had on the court that seemed to sort of precipitate everything that happened. And yeah, it's like, you know, it became a story for a second for sure. But yeah, just like, yeah, I don't know. Give me your thoughts on the similarities between those guys. Honestly, I think that the more I know now, I think more than anything, Draymond just embarrassed Kevin one time. And maybe it was a cherry on top of how Kevin was feeling.

But I don't think it was the end-all be-all, like if you know those two guys. They're still really cool, right? But I think right now they recognize in the same way that Shaq and Kobe, or more so Shaq than Kobe, but and the way that Shaq recognized that like, yo, this shit is going to sell no matter what. We might as well get a piece of it, you know? This alleged beef that we have is always like that moment in L.A. is going to live in infamy. And I think that they realize that. And whether they're cool or not, they know that that shit is going to sell. And I think that that's something that they've, that they've just. they're going to monetize in terms of like them being the same seizing the means of production yeah i think in one i think they're i think they're honestly two different people and i think that's why they're cool i think that they just they're capitalizing on a moment that they had together but i don't think that they're the same in any ways because so it's really just that they both had something to say right i think that they're cool i think they're more than cool i think that they're friends i think

they're bonded for life i think they are good but to say that they're the same i don't think they're the same and I think that just even how both of them go about life, Kevin's a lot more low key than Draymond is, just in general. And I think it stops there, but I think that they were just trying to capitalize on a moment and Draymond was trying to get his show popping. And also, side note, Draymond's really good at this to the point where I'm really jealous. But he was trying to get his show off and Kevin is his pot and it was trying to help him out. It's literally nothing more than that. Last one before I let you go. I'm fascinated by the Kyrie Katie friendship.

Where do you think it's going? It depends, man. I think it's in a good place now. But I think there's just so many times where you can just like do the stuff that Kyrie does because my thing is this, it feels, and this is something that like, I tell Kev, it feels sometimes a little one-sided

when you look at it from afar, right? Where, you know, Kevin always has to answer for Kyrie, He always has to do all these things and like always has to have Kyrie's back. When at least and outwardly is Kyrie going to have Kevin's back is the biggest question, right? Because Kevin has stuck his neck out a lot for Kyrie when you talk about calling a sitting mayor out by name because of his policy. During a time where like vaccinations is a very polarizing issue. It just is. And a city like New York, you call out a mayor to get about a rule that is unfair to your teammate.

Right. And you take Kyrie's side on a time when Kyrie is not playing basically by choice and not being on the same side as you. I think, and I'm speaking for myself, I haven't talked to, I just think that there just needs to be some reciprocity, you know. That's what it seems like. I think it'll be fine, but a good relationship has to have reciprocity. And that remains to be seen in my eyes. Yeah, that's a good point. Best friends do break up. All the time, you know. Beyonce left Destiny's child. We won't, though.

You know what I mean? BFS. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, BFS don't be cool all the time. Actually, it's more likely that a BFF will break up and then get stronger and then come back and be friends again. Yeah, maybe they'll find their way back to each other. You know, I'm not rooting for that. I'm kind of, I'm on board with these two now. They're kind of after this.

You're all in. You love them. You love them as a tandem. I just love. of best friends. Friendship is probably my favorite relationship to explore. I feel like we don't talk about it enough. Yeah, man. Also, we don't talk about like relationships in general. Like, we don't talk about like, for instance, when Mello left Denver, right? Like, like, people, Lala gets blamed, but also, like, I get it. It's almost like you do things for your

spouse. Almost like you, like, care about what your spouse thinks. Like, yeah, she's married to her. Yeah. I mean, heart, heartened and carry your friends, right? Maybe. That ship's sealed. They were, or I don't know if they are. Who knows? Kevin and James, I think Kevin just let him go to the streets. Just like just release them to the streets. Just basically the best way I can describe it. Okay. Well, we'll release you to the streets now too.

Thank you so much for coming on. This was a lot of fun. This was awesome. Thank you. I'm just, you know, about to be cold and just chilling in the streets and just viving and just figuring my way back to the crib. All right. Shout out Logan.

Shout out both Chris's or producer and Chris Ryan. We'll have him back next week. Talks in playoffs. It's coming up. Two weeks. I'm hyped. It's going to be like the most exciting playoffs, I think, in a while. Come on real ones.

Stop playing. Come on real ones. Stop ducking real ones, Siri. Stop ducking. Stop being a cat. Stop being a cat. Come through. Come hang with you.

Come hang with your folks. All right. We'll get it done. Peace.