The Most Interesting Teams, Trade Targets, and Free Agents of the 2024 Offseason | Group Chat
00:00This is Bill Simmons.I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel.It's called Ringer Movies.If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at The Ringer,then you're in luck because every episode of The Rwatchablesand The Big Picture, now on YouTube.Like Bill said, Ringer movies will feature full episodes of my show,The Big Picture, the Rewatchables,
00:17as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie historyand a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie-loving Ringer personalities.Search Ringer movies on YouTube and Experience the Joy,Chris Ryan impersonating Wayne Jenkins on camera.group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was.Como Astha, Big Was.Bang, bang, bang.Rob and I are broadcasting from our typical Hobbit holes, but Was is coming to us internationally.
01:07Yeah, I'm in Mexico City right now, visiting with my lady, just one of the great cities in the world.As you guys know, I'm one of the greediest people on the planet.and there is no better place to be a food person than Mexico City, man.Between the street food, the actual, like, you know, fancy schmancy,Michelin-type restaurants to just, like, go to a bar and eat.It's amazing, man.And just the coolest, just most down-to-ear, fun people you could imagine that we've met so far.So, like, yeah, man, it's really cool.
01:44Well, we're going to need a full accounting of the food scene at some point,from every taco to every, like,tuna toastata that you house while you're there.We're going to need it. But, Justin,this is why Waz's light years aheadof guys like us. The seasonjust ended. I'm startingto spin the wheels on. Okay, what's
02:00my vacation going to be? When am I going toget out of my Hobbit hole? Wazzis already there. He's locked and loaded.He's first thing smokingout to Mexico City.He had the one, two, three, Caboapproach to where he had already bookedbefore he knew
02:15the series was over.Yes, sir.The ultimate confidence in the Celtics in a way.That's true.But today we're going to turn the page.Well, actually, we should talk about the live show.Thanks for everyone coming out.Absolutely.
02:31I love seeing everybody.I had a really great time.Was almost died in the midst of the live show.How are you doing?Yeah.Yeah.So I got a beer before the show in IPA,finished about a quarter of this beer in the green room,
02:45brought it to the stagewas like, all right, I'll finish this during the courseof the show, one freaking beer,halfway through this beer,my nasal passages are closing,my eyes are itching,I'm sneezing on the stage,like, I'm talking all nasally.
03:02It was like so freaking horrible.And yeah, I just had to gut it through.It was my live show version of a flu game, y'all.It was.But yeah, I will not soon be having IPAs again.I guess this is what,37 is like, y'all.I was just like getting off a Paul George take or something.
03:20I'm looking at Chris and I pan and look at was.And the look of death on your face.You could barely keep your eyes open.It was tough.I was like, what is going on over here?Yeah, I felt bad.But you gutted through.You played through.
03:35We appreciate that.I did. No excuses.Play like a champion.Well, and like the flu game, a little self-inflicted, you know?Yes.Ultimately, you did, you did welcome.recommend the IPA and these are the results.By the way, they had two of them and I was like, yeah, give me the hazy.
03:51I like them extra hazy.That was my down.That was my downfall.MJ had the mutant pizza.You had the mutant hazy IPA.We'll talk about that one for years in the podcasting biz.But today we're going to flip the page officially to the off season.The draft is coming up this week.
04:10We got free agency coming up this week.So we're going to do what we did last year, which is the most interesting teams.trade targets and free agents of the off season.We did this potluck style, or as Rob referred to summer BBQ style, where we all broughtone team, one trade target, one free agent.I mean, the best barbecues are potlux in my experience.Yeah, it's a lot to ask one host to just stand there and just kind of just like workaway at a grill an entire party, not be able to mingle, not be able to do anything.
04:42Get the host like some responsibilities for.sure. Like, we need that chicken fresh off the grill. Now, you know what I mean? But like certain things,like the sides, potato salad and stuff like that, other people can bring that through.Well, see, I said this and then I'm thinking about it. It's like, if I'm hosting the barbecue,I want complete control. I want complete creative authority. But if I'm going to your barbecue,I'm happy to play my role, you know, I'm happy to bring a bright summary salad. I'm happy to bringa dessert through. I'm just trying to compliment.I'm trying to keep the main thing, the main thing.
05:17Let's do it out here.Well, it was the host here.Let me tell you guys.I am very happy to be sharing the burden for once.For once.Thank you.Thank you for having.Helping out here.
05:29All right.Let's start with the teams.And I think I should probably go first here just because they've been in the news.The Chicago Bulls, who made the first big move of the offseason along with the OKC Thunder,who we're going to talk about a little bit, by swapping Alex Caruso,for Josh Giddy, and it sounds like a lot of people are mad.Not just mad, but big mad.I was one who thought, like, this was pretty reasonable,
05:55considering that Alex Caruso is going into free agency.The Bulls probably do need to take a step backin order to eventually take a step forward,and you do get a guy who is the sixth pick in the draft,not that long ago, a guy who has shown flashes in his three years.It is only 21 years old at this point.There are some guys who are going to go in the top 10 in the draft.seems like we're older than that. So for me, I thought this was pretty reasonable, but
06:20Rob, what did you think overall about that deal? It's less about Josh Giddy not being a goodplayer and more about the baffling sequence of events over years that has led to tradingAlex Caruso for Josh Giddy. Because there have been seemingly better offers than this outthere for the Bulls. Dangling throughout this process at various trade deadlines, even going intothe summer, there's lots of places that Alex Caruso would be a reallydesired player, and yet you're walking into a situation if you're Chicago that's really the oppositeof what anyone like us would want for them. We've been talking about the Bulls, again, for years now,as a team that needs a hard reset, that needs to kind of take the ceiling off of its entire operation
07:02that is imposed by having, you know, Demard de Rosen, Zach Levine is the best players on your team,for example, this kind of middling status that they have locked themselves into. And they've traded a goodrole player who admittedly was going to do more for contenders than he ever was for theBulls. But they brought in a guy who has such clearly defined limitations and weaknesses thatthey're just walking into the same kind of middling status and middling fate, it feels like,all over again. So a couple of things. I personally have never liked Josh Giddy as a player.Oh, we know. I've never understood. I've never understood any enthusiasm for somebody whobrings what he brings to the table.
07:43Like, whatever.That, put that aside.The logic of the deal in a vacuum makes sense.Caruso is way older.He's got one year left on his deal, so less cost control.And he's due probably a significant raise on his next deal, right?So it's not just that his deal is up.It's that he's going to get paid when it is.
08:06And so just on that, it's like, yo, let's move on, move on, go to a young,younger player who's under contract, who still has some quote-to-quote upside, which is whatever,you can equivalent with that categorization, but they can make that argument to themselvesand keep it pushing.My question for the Bulls is, what's the next thing that they do?If it's signed DeMar de Rosen to a two plus one, how does this deal make sense?It can't be, right?It can't be that.
08:37So that's why I'm just like, I got to withhold judgment ultimately, because like,Is it going to make sense?Like, are they going to go in the direction of Josh Giddies being the future, quote,unquote, of the franchise?Or are they just going to run it back again?Yeah, I think I look at it from two different perspectives.One is, like, kind of the game theory, like what you got asset for asset-wise, which a lot ofpeople seem mad just the fact that the Bulls didn't get a draft pick because it had been
09:04rumored that Crusoe might go for two first, right?Or the fact that the Thunder just have so many first, why couldn't you just get anyFor me, I don't really care for that, if only because, like, this deal will ultimately come down to how good Josh Giddy is.Like, I don't think getting, like, the 25th pick in 2027 is going to appreciably change what is happening here.And to that point, a lot of people have been calling Caruso kind of like, OK, sees Derek White, which we're often running on the Celtics comparison to whatever we're doing.But just to remind everyone, Derek White went for Romeo Langford, who at that point had pretty much bottomed out at that point.He still had some upside, but wasn't really a prospect.Josh Richardson, the 25th pick in the 2022 draft, who happened to be Blake Wesley,
09:48whom nobody remembers, and the 2020, 2020,28 top one protected pick from the Celtics, which if all things go well, as we expect,it might not be something, but we'll see.Maybe like catastrophe hits.We'll see.But so I think the trade on its face was fine.I think the more interesting thing, Rob, is probably going forward, like, what do the Bulls do for here?Because I agree with Waz.
10:09I don't mind if it's Kobe White, Josh Giddy backcourt of the next generation.But if you're throwing DeMarre Drozin on top of that, and even if you're throwingZach Levine on top of it, things can get pretty messy pretty quickly.Yeah.So long as this team has, for starters, Zach Levine's contract, Vooch, Lonzo Ball's contract,plus or minus, as we're saying, resigning DeMar, potentially resigning Pat Williams.That's a team that's not going anywhere.And that also, for the purposes of this summer, can not.
10:39create any meaningful amount of cap space to do anything interesting really at all beyond thispoint. And we talk about Josh Giddy, as we're saying, rightfully, a young player who can and I thinkwill get better in some ways, but also a guy who's going into his fourth year, which means you're goingto have to pay him really soon too. And you're going to have to pay him knowing full well thatthe thunder were just yanking him off the floor in a playoff series because they couldn't figure outhow to play with him. And that was a team that had more spacing and more defense and more rimprotection than the bulls do right now.More of an apparatus to protect Josh Giddy from what he can't do.
11:13The flip side of that is that if you do do a little bit of a clearing here,I think in particular if DeMarge Rose is no longer a bull, no fault to him.It's just like kind of time for that whole era to turn the page.Giddy could have the ball in his hands more in a way that probably suits him.I'm just not sure that putting the ball in Josh Giddy's hands on a full-time basissuits the Bulls.if you want to trystart over it's smart to start over
11:41with young guysagainwhat do they do nextwith all these pieces that you mentioneddo they find a home for Zach Levinedo they letDamar de Rosen go do theyfacilitate sign and trade
11:57like what do they do nextand the reason whywe're having so much troubledescribing what might become next is becausethey've been so dysfunctional.It's been so hard to make an accurate reading of like,what do the Bulls want out of their team, their future, their franchise,as a, you know, as an organization, as management is concerned.
12:20And so, yeah, I'm with Justin, too, like this idea that like,oh, we got two picks out of OKC.Okay, they're going to be in the top three in the West for the foreseeable future.Like, what are those picks going to be worth?Like, I'm not one of these, you know, draft picks.loving people where it's like, how could you not get O KC's draft pick?Like, I think that's fine.I just, again, just to reiterate, what are they doing next?
12:44Yeah, I'm probably more bullish on Giddy than most.If only because a guy at his size.I see what you did there.I didn't even intentionally do that, but it's just how dialed in I am here going into free agency.He's basically a power forward in size, but he passes like a point guard.Now, everything else in between, a little dicey, even to the point where some of his ball handling, a little looser than you'd expect from a primary guy, right?But I do think if you give him the ball, it would be nice to see what he is. And there were so few opportunities left in the league to do that.I do think at the very least, if they do clear everything out here, is the direct path to finding out who Josh Giddy is fully.
13:26Because, yeah, there were issues fitting in with the thunder.but as we saw, like, he really wasn't the right fit ultimately next to all the guys that they had here because he couldn't shoot.And he was often being forced to play off of Shea as opposed to vice versa.I'll say this, though. Yeah, I don't think the Rosen is a good fit.Good Lord, please get Vucevic the fuck out of there.I don't know where he would go, but I think that's a major sticking point.He was pretty awful last season.I'm kind of coming around to Zach Levine being a little underrated at this point.
13:54I know the contract is awful.the injury history is getting increasingly awful,but he's still a good player when he does play and is locked in.I do wonder if he's almost like another by low guywhere it's like maybe a Philly down the road,some of these other teams that are big fish hunting,like they bottom out completely.I would take a look at Levine because I almost feel like
14:16that's what we're saying here is like maybe we should look at the institution.We should consider the source, as Blake Griffin once said about DeMarcus cousins,and start to wonder like maybe that it was the Bulls,Maybe not so much Levine going on here.I think some of it is the Bulls.The tricky part with evaluating Levine as another team that might trade for him.For one, all the things you mentioned.Huge Albatross contract, injury history that comes with that,
14:41that makes it unreliable for him to even be on the floor.He's also a guy who has not changed his game to accommodate the kind of role he should probably be playing.And he has wanted to play more of a starring creative role for the Bulls with the ball in his handsin a way that would not fly if he were a sixeror if he were playing with any other superstars.Now, is he doing thatbecause within the Bulls ecosystem,he sees himself as the most talented player
15:07or one of the most talented players?I think that's a realistic possibilityand not an unreasonable one.If you're Zach Levine,as you said, Justin, he's really good.An amazing high-quality NBA shooter.We know what he can do athletically,even if he doesn't always apply it
15:21as a driver or defensively.He has incredible gifts.I just don't know if any other team can look at Levine right now and say,we feel super confident that if we bring him into our ecosystem,he's going to change the things we don't like about him as a player.And with that price tag, that's a hell of a hang-up to have.I think another thing that hasn't been mentioned,and we've mentioned it previously on the show,
15:45but like locker room toxicity.And, you know, a lot of times that stuff can be very concentratedto the current situation where it's like, all right, you get the guy out ofthere, he goes somewhere else, gets a fresh start, new teammates, new surrounding, a new embrace,you know, wants to prove people wrong, like, the fact that, like, it's, it's kind of embarrassingto be a guy who signs a $200 million contract, and one year later, they're just shoppingyou around.They're just like, any takers?
16:11Like, as if you're, they're at a flea market, basically, like, you know, a garage sale oftheir roster, and you're one of the people that they're just shoving into the front,trying to get rid of, like, that's definitely an ego blow, right?But like the locker room situation, he did not endear himself to the people on that team.The guys, like, not just the coaches, not just, you know, management who's just like,yeah, we gave you all this money.You were supposed to take us to new heights.But like the guys were not feeling Zach Levine's approach.
16:40So I wonder if that's also a knock in terms of what teams might potentially want to bring him in.But like you guys, I believe in his talent.I think, you know, certain guys and we can call it the Drew Holley.Corollary, right?Where it's like, take Drew Holiday out of the buckswhere like in big postseason possessions,like he's trying to set Janice up.He's trying to make things happen.
17:04Like he's getting grenades.Put him in Boston where he's just finishing stuffand he's just the ultimate finisher.Maybe Zach Levine in a new rolewhere he's not being asked to carry an offense,but possession by possession can be that type of playeron the right type of team around the right type of superstars.Yeah, it was,
17:23it wasn't quite the Ewing theory with Levine when he went down,but the fact that the Bulls didn't play any better or worse without him seemed pretty telling.If anything,it looked happier and it almost feels like their identity flowed from one Alex Caruso.And I think even in the best of times when it was Caruso and Alonzo Ball ripping and running,I thought that was kind of the identity of like the peak, what was it,two months of Bulls basketball two years ago.So what a two months it was, Justin.
17:54It was fun.It was fun for two months.And everyone in Chicago has been clinging to it ever since.But now Caruso goes to OKC.And so, Rob, I think this is a good point to talk about the other side of this trade.Yeah.For me, they are the most interesting team of the off season.And I think we can start as a transition point here with the fact that it's now been articulated by the thunder and by St.
18:14Presti that Josh Giddy basically requested to be moved, that there was a conversationinternally about what his role was going to be.the Thunder are saying that they saw a vision for him coming off the bench,which I'm inclined to agree with that that's probably what Josh Giddy's.I'm sorry, can I ask you something?Let's do it.Let's just say hypothetically.J. Dub requested to be moved.
18:37Would his request be accommodated?I don't suspect it would.Absolutely not.I think there would be an intervention.Here's the thing.I think there would be a lot of conversation, a lot of trying to talk him down,talk him out of it.Josh Giddy, given the run he just had,
18:51requests to be moved, let's make some calls.Let's see if we can, let's see.Like Jamim Williams.But they can't all be dogs.But if Josh Giddy's best role is coming off the bench,and I kind of think that's what his future in the NBA will ultimately be,then the thunder are wise to move on at this particular point.And I think that's part of why the bulls, from the bull's angle,
19:16it's why we're a little bit skeptical of some of the return here.But the thunder are turning that particular.page and now in similar fashion that you express wise of like what's the next dominowhere do the thunder go from here this offseason because they don't have their own free agentsto worry about i i can't quite put a finger on why but i don't suspect gordon heyward is goingto be coming back so they don't have to worry about that can we talk about the cruso fit reallyquickly in okay see that yeah which i think is gangbusters the fact that like this guy mightcome off the bench behind lewdore that you could play them together that you could
19:51now trade loot door if you needed to like i don't know this seems like pretty clear cut from theirside well the team that just led the league in steals just got one of the foremost piranhaswho's just going to be feasting off of this of like the the frenzy of shay and dort and carusoin particular and the pressure that they can apply in space in the passing lanes on the ball that's atremendous fit and and as you're saying the the kind of dual insurance of caruso and dort for each otherwhether it's one of them doesn't quite match upideally against an opposing starand so you go to the other one,
20:25both can pick up like nagging injuries here and thereand now you don't maybe need to worry about the factthat you're going to be completely withoutone of your go-to stoppers if you have two of them.If Caruso continues to hit shots at the rate,he hit shots from the perimeter last season,he's going to be everything that the Thunder wantand need him to be.
20:42Yeah, and what I like about this toois that in the Dallas series,you could tell, especially because they weren't making shots at a very crazy high clipor getting shots off in that regard anyway.Isaiah Joe and Wiggins, like some of those minutes left you wanting.So the idea that Caruso just comes in and he becomes like a defensive solve.Like leaning in on the defense in a way that suggested, they're like, look, we got Shay.We're not worried about generating quality offense, man.
21:16And like, I love the fact that they're just like, we really believe in our MVP candidate.And we don't need to surround him with a crazy amount of offense to make something hum.We need to put some dominant defensive groups out there.And we're going to kick people's asses that way.I love that idea because they just get scrappier and nastier and tougher with this move, which, you know, obviously that's right up my alley.I'm a, you know, I'm a bar room brawl type of guy.back alley type of guy y'all.Well, yeah, I think you made the point there where, like, they're putting Joe and Wiggins out
21:52there for shooting in the playoffs, but now you have a shooter in Caruso who's around 40%over the past few years.And then you get one of the best wing defenders in the NBA on top of that.He was like, what, I believe second team all defense right behind Herb Jones.And so, like, I can't think of it, Justin.I can't imagine a better fit.for what they want to be. And on top of that, they still have all this money to where if you want to goout and get a big to protect Chet or like you want to swing a big trade even, they have so many
22:25opportunities to do so. And so I wonder, do you guys think there's like a clear path here?Would you prefer them now that they have Caruso in house? They're building this nice littledepth start here. Would you want them to still go Lori Markinen hunting? Or is this more of like,hey, let's actually just go give Hartenstein the bag, give Nick Clack's in the bag for two years.Let's just get a stop gap and just like be us plus some of these other guys.I personally like the Lori Markinen or OG Ananobe pursuit a little bit more than adding a big.And if you are going to add a big, I want to do it with the complete understanding internally and externally.With that player, you're coming off the bench.
23:04And when push comes to shove, we want to have Chad on the floor as R5.And maybe that pushes you out of the Isaiah Hardenstein market and into like the Yakup Perteltrade market or something, right? Maybe it adjust the parameter slightly and you're going towardsmore someone who's like a borderline starter and more someone who's more of like a probablybest served as a reserve at this point in their career. And all that can be well and good.But I'm looking at that four spot. I'm looking at, you know, like who is the next Josh Hart issomething I've been thinking about a lot this off season. And I say that, you know, a gamer who canpunch above their weight, who can play across the positional spectrum, who can completely change
23:42the rebounding dynamic in a game, evenas a wing player.If they could find someone who can do some of those things,I think they could be really well served,even without adding more, quote, unquote, sizebecause they're just going to play bigger.So this is what makes the Thunder so interesting to meis they have those options.
23:58They can go for forwards, they can go for bigs.They obviously just added a guard that opens upall kinds of interesting lineups for them,especially on the defensive end.But they have more draft capital at their disposalthan any other team.And with that, it makes them have the greatest capacityto surprise us.
24:15in what they do.Because they can chase after basically anybody,whoever they think is the best conceptual fit for what they've got.And the framework of what they have is open to anyone who can basically dribble and shoot.And that's a pretty wide range of player and a wide range of star that for people like uswho are trying to forecast their moves makes them very confusing, but very exciting.So in terms of what they could do going forward,the only reason I love the marketing thing,
24:42because it is a response to their lack of girthin the sense that any team that's big enoughto hurt us with their size,we want,marketing will make them extremely hard to guard.So if you want to be one of those big-ass bludgeoning teams,as we watch in the finals with Dallas,who did out physical and out big man them
25:04in the second round of the playoffs,Dallas had a hard time guarding a spread-out team.And marketing will make thema legitimate five-out, you know, past dribble shoot at all five position threats.Like, to me, that is an effective response being like, you know what, we can't handleyour size, but you can't handle our perimeter abilities, right?Like, to me, that is a, that's a more creative way of going at it than just saying,look, you know, somebody like, say, Jonas, who I still like, I still like Valchunas.
25:40And I do love that he's a big bruiser.being like, you know what, this is how we fix our big man and girth issue by bringing Yonison.This is like, no, no, no, no, we're going to make it hard for them to stay big.Language there was weird, but like, we're going to make it difficult for them to stay with all that size on the interior by, you know, spreading guys out.Like, I love that as an idea.I wonder if they'll pursue that this offseason or guys if San Presti, which has been his kind of like MO,will be like, you know what?Caruso was incremental enough.
26:19Let's see what we could do with this and then tackle the rest next off season.I tend to think that we all want Lori for them, but what Presti wants for them is to just be who they areand to just steadily, methodically build into like those three guys and just add as much around them as possible.And so I wouldn't be surprised if it's more of like a Hartenstein, although the free agent big market pretty shallow out there because I don't think Claxton, for instance, gives them what they need. He's a little too frail and I think you want someone with a little bit more heft. But after that, it's just like, then we're just getting into the dime a dozen sort of big pile. And we might as well just go out and trade for someone's backup big at that point just to do it that way. So there aren't a lot of like big swing bigs out there.This is why the Lowry skill set that Waz was talking aboutthat can move the thunder a little closer to the modelthat just won the Celtics the title.His willingness to shoot and the fact that he has such a high release point
27:15is such a huge difference.And if the thunder are going to become the best version of themselves,whether through adding pieces or developing into that kind of team,there's going to be some important swing skills here too,which is J-Dub needs to get threes up faster.Alex Caruso needs to be willing to take on the,catch immediately and not always be looking to facilitate and make the next play.Like, these guys are good shooters and they need to trust in those shots because they were
27:41guardable in the playoffs in a way where defenses like Dallas could swarm the inside, couldcollapse around Shea.That didn't stop Shea from putting up 30, but it did contain the rest of the operation.And so they do need at least more willing shooting, if not better shooters.And I think that is going to be an effective way to combat a lot of their problems.Was, do you want to go with your team to close out this dish orthis course of our barbecue?I continue to be fascinated by the Sixers.
28:08A couple of days ago,Shams put out the report thatthey're quote unquote cooling on the Paul George pursuit.And just, you know,just so we could keep our listenerssort of updated on the Paul George situation.From what we all can gatheris that he wants four years from the Clippers
28:28in terms of his next deal,the Clippers are like,look, man, we gave Kauai three years.We're on a three year timeline.You're 34.We want to give you three years.Paul George in his camp, and I think rightfully so, are like, look, in free agency, a teamthat wants me is going to give me four years.
28:47So pay me my respect, pay me my market value.And I think they're playing a game of chicken right now.But Paul George is basically saying, like, look, I can go to Orlando and get four.I can go to Philadelphia and get four.And that's where the stalemate is.But hearing the six is cool off of him, I'm like, I wonder really what they're trying to do, right?Is it going to be a free agent?Will they get extra spicy and say, yo, fuck it.
29:14Let's get into Miles Bridges sweepstakes, you know, in so much as there is a sweepstakes, right?Um, fuck it.Let's try to trade for Zach Levine, right?Like, they can get so creative in so many ways within the trade market, within the free agency market.kid. I'm really just, I'm really just keyed into what they try to do because more so than any ofthese teams, even OKC, who we loved what they did in the regular season. We marveled that some oftheir young guys during their first playoff runs or extended playoff runs, they are going to bevery closely, you know, similar to what they did last year. Philly has the chance to wholly
29:58remake this thing, right? Like just a rapid.re-envisioning of what this team can be.And I'm sorry, I'm a sucker for these kinds of things.Hearing Jo Wells say, I fucking hate Boston,and I'm ready to attack these dudes next year,I feel like we're close to beating them.We got a chance to improve this roster.I loved that.
30:18I loved hearing that.And so I'm really just keyed into what they're doing, man, this summer.I think what the Sixers are doing this summer is just fucking upeverybody else's negotiations with their own free agents.Because you're right. I think they're the boogeyman out there that is going to force a lot of teams into contracts, into stipulations, into options that they otherwise wouldn't have given because Daryl's probably sitting there being like, I will give you whatever you want. And I'll do respect to the reporting on them cooling on Paul George. I don't think that Daryl has cooled on any superstar over the past 10 years. This dude has been hot to trot for anyone who wants to come and play for him. So I wouldn't be surprised if this all does turn into Paul George ultimately going there.I almost wonder with Philly, like, they have so many options on the table.I'm, like, constantly searching for what is the one that makes the most sense?Because I think you're right, wise, because Paul George seems like he went to L.A.
31:13Because he wanted to go back home and play for L.A.And if it's not Paul George, then who else to be on?And that's what that Shams report felt like to me is that the sixers are getting the sense that, like,this guy's not seriously trying to make a move.That's what it felt like.Maybe you guys read something different from it.But it felt like that report is like, yeah.Paul George is not going no way, y'all.
31:34I think both things can be true, though.Right?I think there are a lot of negotiations that start out with posturing,that start out with a player in Paul George's position,going out to get a competitive offer,going out to see what the market can bring to him.And then you start thinking about it.And it's like, well, the Sixers are going to be a contender.
31:52I mean, I would imagine a better team than the Clippers next season.Yes, it requires a cross-country move.Yes, it requires a change from Southern California.but this is a real championship contending team with cap space,which is something that just does not happen very much in the modern NBAand has the ability to reimagine its roster in all the ways you're describing.In some cases, the urgency and need to reimagine its roster in those ways, too.Whether it's Paul George or not,
32:16the Sixers are basically going to have to either reconveneor reconstruct an entirely new collection of playersto a degree that even if they get Paul George,their plans can be complicated just by someone outbidding,them for Nicholas Batum or Kyle Lowry.Like they are going to run into a sons type problem of even if they get their thirdstar, they're just going to have limited resources to then get everybody else.And I think right now they are penciling in and hoping that Batum and Lowry and maybe even
32:46Kelly Ubre, who was so essential to them last season, could be part of that formula.But those are attractive veteran players who just came off of pretty good seasons and I thinkcould have a lot to offer other teams too.It's a great point because I think when you see this big chunk ofcap space. You're like, the world of possibility, right? But someone of Paul George's caliber andyears in the NBA at his max is going to soak up most of that cap space. So if you're goingPaul George, awesome big three with Tyrese Maxi and Bid, I think we would all agree. That's an awesomestarting point. Tantilizing. What else are you getting tantalizing? Beautiful. But what else are you
33:23getting around there? Do you have to sacrifice your four or five spots, your six, seven spots? And as wesaw, like they were pretty solid through like six last year.Buddy Hill didn't really work, but like that worked for them.And so is it actually a better approach to go mid-tier throughout from three to seven and justbe lock solid?As we've seen some of the teams that were successful in this postseason, Dallas in particular,it's an interesting kind of like theory or question about how to build the right team forthis moment.
33:52I think based on talent, the answer to that is no.If you can get Embed and Maxie and Paul George on the same team, you should do it versus going for like good, reliable kind of sub all star level players to fill out, you know, those kind of three through six spots on your roster.I agree.The one thing that makes me hesitate is Joelle's health, but the reality is if Joel is injured, it doesn't really matter which path you pick.If you're kind of behind it.If you're a six-ers fan management, you got to put your head firmly in the sand about the health.You can't operate in terms of this guy might not be healthy.Fuck that.
34:25Well, they already tried it once, and that's how Al Horford became a sixer in a truly cursed era of that organization and Al Horford's career.So get the best backup you can get.And maybe you hit it big and get a really good guy on a pretty reasonable contract for that spot just in case.But Chase Paul George.Chase Jimmy Butler via trade.Like Chase O.G. and Anobi, if you think you can get into that.Hemmy.Chase. Get some real horsepower in here to really flank these guys.
34:53And we've talked a lot about what that does for Embedley.and kind of the structure of the team.It's going to help Tyrese Maxi a ton tooto not have to carry the creative weightthat he had to last season,even deep into the playoffswhen Joelle was kind of hobbling out there.All right, since we're already talking about options
35:10for the Sixers and how they fill that cast baitand free agency, why don't we start with free agentsand then we'll do trade targets later?I think I should probably go firstbecause this is the guy who's recently been linkedto the Sixers as a potential Paul George option,like if they don't get him.And that's Contabious called Well Pope.
35:27getting big Jeremy Grant Redux flashbacks here where it's like Denver had the guy in order tobe that lock solid defender type overqualified defender who could be everything that theyneeded him to be. He was like, see ya, I'm going to go put up bad shots in Detroit. And while I don'tthink everything worked out well, they got Aaron Gordon and they won a title. But I don't thinkContavius Caldwell Pope is quite that. I think he is who he is at this point. But I think a lot ofteams can use that exact player.First and foremost, Rob, probably the Philadelphia 76ers.Well, if, if KCP can get Jeremy Grant type money or adjusted for inflation,
36:05it's pretty freaking good if you can get it.Yeah.I think you got to take that.And look, he can be penciled in very easily, whether it's, you know, if Philly, as we've said,whiffs on their preferred star targets and are kind of having to shift directions overpay fora season or two of Contavius, called well, Pope, you could also pencil him in very easily intothe Clay Thompson Honorary Orlando Magicroster spot as the veteran
36:29shooter who could help round out some of their stuff.Every team can usea KCP and that is a hugeproblem for the Denver Nuggets whofrankly just do not have the abilityto replace him if he leaves.So he's definitely in a position to squeezesomebody. I think the question is who's going to cut that
36:45check? Yeah, I would beshocked if Denver just let the guywalk mainlybecause Brownand Watson did not demonstratean ability to just take his place in terms of what he was doing,perimeter defense, even on offense as a reliable three-point shooter,movement shooter at times, not just somebody who just, you know,
37:09will wet an open corner three every time it's given to him,but like, you know, transition threes above the break.Like, this guy was like a diversified three-point shooter.And personality-wise, he's just mesh so beautifully with the team.I think Denver's got to figure out a way to get that done.You know what's so funny?Like, I hear the Sixers, and initially I balk at the idea because I'm such a Kenny fan.But then I'm like, last year the Sixers changed their offense.
37:41He would actually fit around what they're doing.Like the old Sixers way of just dumping it to Embed, watching him like, you know, do fancy moves.Where he does that in situations.but the more two-man sort of more movement,he can do some of those dribble handoff actions.He did a lot of that with Yokic and Denverover the past few years.Like, KCP would actually fit in on offense with these guys,
38:07not just what he does defensively.And so this would be a cool move.I wonder, is a Sixers fan?This is like a big letdownwhen you're thinking about, you know,LeBron and Paul George and all these other guys.But, like, in terms of what they're trying to,to accomplish in the postseason and beyond.
38:25He's a great fit for the Sixers.It feels like the kind of thing that would be somewhat of an immediate letdown and themedia day photo or the press conference photo of KCP holding up his Sixers jersey.It's just not going to pop the way a Paul George one would.But then Sixers fans.No, okay, no.It's not, it's not Johan Petro levels.But Sixers fans would get into December, January and it would be like, oh my God,
38:51KCP's pretty dope.Like, this guy's really improved our team.The idea of, you know, we're talking about the Paul George as the comparison point.Maybe the real comparison point is Buddy Heald, as you mentioned, Justin.It's, you know, whoever you're subbing in for DeAnthony Melton, who just like wasn't healthyenough at the end of the season to contribute, it's Tobias Harris, right?You're plugging in a good championship level veteran who knows how to play his role, who knows how toplayoff of stars.
39:17For guys who just not, we're not helping you enough for this reason or that.What are we talking about numbers-wise?Are we getting in the 30s for KCP?Well, I think that's one of the big questions,because if you're going to lure him away from Denver,you're probably going to have to overpay him significantly.Yeah.And at that point, yeah, are we getting pretty high up there?
39:36But I do think, like, the Denver part of thisis actually more fascinating to me,because, like, if they kneecap a team with such a rock solid fivethat's struggling to build depth behind that,like, what sort of trickle-down effectsdo we have about the Western Conference raceand the title race as a whole.Like, I think everything starts to jam
39:55in that nice little middle where it's like,oh, man, like, OKC's starting to look more appealingthan Denver at that point and like, oh, the wolves.And so I don't know.I think this is the type of move that if he does go elsewhere,yeah, the Sixers would be super intriguing as a result.But like, I think the West becomes even more interestingas a kind of byproduct.
40:13Yeah, I haven't figured out if there's a teamthat quite fits this criteria.But if you are a Western Conference teamwith the flexibility or,Maybe things just turn out this way.Say one of your free agents leave.Say you all of a sudden have this like one year window before you need to extend your young guys.And you can give KCP a balloon payment and take him off of the nuggets.
40:32I think it would be well worth your time to do it.By the way, this needs once before you go there, Justin, this needs is worth mentioning.Like when Denver brought in KCP, there were people who were like, bro, how could you give up Will the thrill?Like nobody was like through a parade when they got.this guy. And so I could see the front office being like, we could do it again. Not that I believethem, but I could see them saying to talking themselves into the idea, we'll find anotherKCP to build around our generational big and our great talent. Totally. One team that could use himthough, maybe on the dark horse side, San Antonio. Oh, sure. Play along the 2026 title winners as
41:16opposed to the2023 titlewinners.I don'thate it,honestly.Yeah,this guy,
41:24very,he just,every timeVaryattalks aboutwhen Binyama,he ups the stakesevery single time.
41:33Like,I,like,I'm just shockedhow he goes from,yeah,clearly the bestdefensive player
41:38in the NBA as a rookie.Oh,yeah,definitely going to win,you know,a Kareem level ofMVP.This is what he said
41:44at the live show.Now he'spredicted.a championship in2026, y'all.It's just like, this is not increments,guys. I think this is astatement on Wemby, though, because Justin
41:56our, let's not get ahead of ourselves, King.He cannot help but get ahead of himself.He refuses. It's true.All right. Well,why don't we talk about anotherpotential shooter option, Rob?So if teams aren't getting KCP,I assume that they'll go right down the list
42:12to your guy. Yeah. Clay Thompson,the Clay Thompson market in freeagency is starting to heat upby which I mean it's been very, verycold and that by definitionthat means that he may be extremelyavailable. Anthony Slaterhad a report in The Athletic this week that there's
42:28basically no offer on the tablefrom the Warriors to Clay Thompson right now.And it seems like internallythere's a thought that Clay's marketmight be so muted when hegoes looking for other teamsthat he comes back to the Warriors in the end.I don't know about that.
42:46I also don't know if Clay just winds up, like, getting so pissed with this whole situation, he leaves on principle.It's pride at the end of the day, man.He's a freaking, he's a pro.He's like, he's an accomplished guy.And like, to be like, yo, go fish.That's, man, that's, I get it.It's a cold heart business.That's kind of fucking cruel, man.
43:07And, like, I could see a guy taking a spite deal just because of this is a guy with a lot of professional pride.Like, this guy was damn they brought to tears.just talking about having to take a lesser role on this team this season,like how candid he was.A guy with that much pride is going to let the Warriors just push him around like thatwhen he knows he still has more to give?I don't like that approach, man.It's not just because I love Clay as for what he's done
43:36and what he's provided for my enjoyment of the game.Like, yes, but I just think, like, professionally for a guy who started his lifein the NBA with you guys.to be like, yo, have the guy come crawling back for a dealso you could give him some crumbs.Man, that is nasty work in my opinion.I get it.It's not Bob Myers anymore.
43:58It's done leaving now.It's his show.He probably doesn't feel the same attachment to the corethat Myers probably did.Myers has even talked about like, yo, it would have been tough for meto be the person that pulled the trigger, you know,or pulled the string, the rip cord on this thing.But, man, I don't think this is how they should.
44:16should be carrying this. Slater's characterization was that basically the warriors have all this otherbusiness they want to take care of, including can they trade Chris Paul's contract for anotherbig time player by adding in some other assets to it. They have this whole, this whole sequence.And at the very end of it somewhere, it seems like, is, okay, let's, let's see what Clay's up to.Let's see if we can bring him back in some capacity. I get why the warriors would feel that theyneed to do a lot of work on their roster. They do. This is a team that, you know, is a play inteam for a reason, like has a lot to prove, has a lot to change, needs to figure out whatthe next era of Warriors basketball is going to be. That's also a guy who's going to have
44:56a statue outside your building someday. And when you think about, like, for example, the tensionsbetween the Minnesota Timberwolves and Kevin Garnett have never fully been resolved all these yearslater. This is kind of how Dwayne Wade briefly became a Chicago Bowl, right? Like, the franchiselegends and a Utah jazz owner and a Utah jazz owner extremely notable. I think that is kind ofthe two extremes, right? Yeah, like very few guys end up like KG most ultimately go back into thegood graces. And so I actually almost wonder if you're not like a hardcore warriors fan, likeif we're just us looking at about this from afar, is it a huge deal that he goes and finisheshis career elsewhere? Because like this just kind of happens in the NBA.
45:45and we just like kind of write it off.Like Hakeem in the Raptors jersey,Ewing in the Orlando Magic jersey.It happens.Nobody loves it.But I ultimately don't think it really like just completely messeswith the legacy and the connection that he'll ultimately have in Golden State.So I think it's a difference in kind though.
46:05Like in terms of like their approach,if they come in and say,yo, Clay, we're being like very disciplined about our financials.This is what we got to give.That's different.then going out and saying, yeah, go figure out your offer.Yeah.And maybe we'll see.
46:20I most wonder if that is like getting ahead of what will ultimately be him going elsewhere.I wonder if that report is kind of like laying the groundwork that we're severing ties and let's just not expect anything else.Maybe so.But even that would be a failure in the sort of process we're talking about, which is on some level,you don't need to take care of these guys in the sense of giving them huge contracts.but you have to treat themyou have to be competitivelike you have to treat them
46:48with a baseline level of respectwhen they're this kind of playerI agree with youthat the Kevin Garnett example is extremebut Kevin Garnett's jerseyisn't retired in Minneapolisbecause he doesn't want it to beright?
47:00That's where you can't get to that leveland Clay Thompson isI don't think it'll get to that with ClayI hope notbut you're telling me at this moment in timehearing the tender of the reportsyou can't imagine a future where it's likeall you know, Ray Allen style in Boston.
47:17You know, I know that fit, that fence has been mended,but like all the legends come back but clay someday.Or, you know, everyone is kind of enshrined and celebrated but claybecause he doesn't want to be a part of that.I just hope it doesn't come to that sort of extreme outcome.I think the KG thing went outside the typical,this is business approach that a lot of people within the industry defaults to.That's true.
47:39But I think Wads brought up the potential silver lining here,which is spite deal.like if I'm a team with caps pieceyeah Lord knows I love a spot toobut if I'm a team with cap spacelike I'm not so thrilled about givingClay like a big paydaybecause he's a little unreliable at this point
47:56I think he's a little underrated because he is stilllike despite his diminished staturelike a 40% three point shooteror like no Clay Thompson is just not ashow it's just a shovel himself but he's still out therejust drilling a lot of his threes I thinkhe becomes much more interesting if he's likefucking I'm going to take a minimum
48:12to go like beyond the Lakers and I'm going to try to screw the warriors or I'm going to joinlike the Nuggets and I'm going to be their sixth man off the bench like then you you have myattention yeah what are the premier spite deal destinations for Clay Thompson I think you'reright the Lakers family ties regional association LeBron maybe the sons go go play withKevin Durant on the minimum that could be a spicy beautiful I think the the theI would say are kind of in that mixbut I don't know that they're quite on the competitivelevel with some of these other teams.
48:47Can I give you one?Yeah.You're fighting yourself.Memphis Grizzlies.Oh,I don't think Clay might hate the Grizzliesmore than the Warriors.Like, at this point, you know,
49:00like that might be the one team he's more upset with still.Maybe team up was Jordan Poole on the Wizards.That would just be like fighting himself.Yeah.Real cutoff.the nose situation for him there. So I hope it doesn't come to that. But this should be the fear forthe Warriors. This is the option that they have laid out is maybe he ends up coming back to us becausethe offers aren't that good. I think if it does go that way, he could end up taking a pretty
49:27low-paying deal and just say like, screw it. I'm not playing with y'all. I'm playing anywhere else.Ray Allen to the Heat was probably the greatest spite deal that we've ever seen. That's a good one.So maybe we'll see that again. Waz, do you want to go with your free agent? Again, man, myguy is DeMar DeRosen.And it's because this guy carried, first of all, three years ago, people thought DeRosenwas cooked.Then he went to the Bulls and, like, for significant stretches, like against legitimatedefense, he's just beating people one-on-one, crunch time assassin.
50:02Like, obviously in San Antonio, he turned himself into like a great playmaker, facilitator typeof guy, which in Chicago, he didn't really get to use because he was so.heavily relied upon to be like the crunch time guy.And I would just like to see him go somewhere and take a more diminished roleso that he can supercharge those things that he's still really good at, right?Like, I don't know, like doing what he's doing in Chicago for a 38 win team,while impressive, I would just like to see this guy play meaningful postseason minutesand be the secondary ball handler, be the,
50:42the guy that's like, oh shit, I got a, he's got,DeMarre's got a favorable matchup in crunch time.Let's space out and let him cook, you know, like be that guy,that spot person.And I know he's been rumored to L.A. for freaking 10 years now or whatever,but I would love to see him play next to LeBron.I think they actually mesh.Mine is the, the lack of shooting part.
51:05And I wonder if he could ever be convinced on a team where he had a lesser role.That's like, yo, look, Damar, just take Wado.open threes, please.For the love of God, like, there's no way you can't make completely wide open threes.He's not some, like, horrible shooter.But, you know, and I know.He's been doing better with that, to his credit.I think he's been taking slightly more of them over time, but you want even more than that.
51:27And if he's off the ball more, there will be more opportunities to be the kind of guy who, you know,finishes possessions after a defense is like, you know what?We're going to let DeMar take this.And, yeah, I just want to see him be more optimized, right?Like, there's something, too.I guess there's something to a player's vanity and pride where it's like, yo, I get to be the man here.That's cool.But I want to see him be more optimized on a more serious team and a more, well, not that the Lakers are a more serious organization.
51:55But you know what I mean, just a more serious situation.I want to ask a question that, I mean, this might be disrespectful to ask.But we're talking about a world where Clay Thompson signs on for a spite minimum somewhere.So, like, is there a chance of DeMar playing for the mid-level next season?and is he willing to do that?The full mid-level starts at about $13 million a year.The taxpayer mid-level, obviously even lower than that.Those are his best avenues to play for a winning team.
52:24And if that's important to him, that's kind of how he needs to move through this summer.If it's not important to him, maybe not.And I think the middle ground is maybe some kind of sign-and-trade arrangementwhere he signed on for more money but flipped to a team that's competing.The Pelicans come to mind in this regard for me, like budget ingrams,you know, plug DeRosen in there,who I think his playmaking,his instincts is a playmaker.
52:47I know Ingram can passand his assist numbersare generally pretty solid.I actually like Damar a little betterin terms of his visionin terms of the way he sets guys up,how he fits into the flow of an offensethat is diverse, as diverse as New Orleans,
52:59I think he could make sense.But I'm like,I'm trying to get him somewherewhere he can compete for somethingbecause DeMar has earned thatand he's carried these teams for so long.But that pride part of itis no small thing was.
53:10At some point you have to give up the ghost of what you can be as a first option guy.And I think we're at that point with DeMar.I don't know if I'm DeMar, I'm like, listen, Chicago, if hopefully y'all can find a nice sign and trade situation for me.If not, I need my two plus one probably, you know, 25, 30 million per.Keep it pushing.It's a hundred million dollars.Come on, man.I really hope we don't.
53:43I really hope it doesn't go that way.So I'm only just like casually aware of what happened at this Kendrick Lamar showwhere Damar de Rosen and Russell Westbrook gave a cool high five.I don't know what we're calling that, but did that on stage.Is there anything to read?Yeah, I don't know what you would call it.Is there anything to read into that situation that, like, it might be a sign that our guys coming home.Because I agree with you guys.
54:09I think it might be in his best interest.to maybe play a more, a lesser role for less money on a winning team.I'd want that for him.Unless it's, so unless it's Paul George signs elsewhere and the Clippers renounce allof their guys and they bring DeMar in as a free agent as a, I guess Paul George's light,I find it hard to believe that.I, like, he played too well to do a Westbrook to take some crazy, terrible deal for himanyway. He just was too good last season to not feel like he's earned himself a beautiful
54:45payday this summer. To no cool high five. He's always been home. It wasn't a coming home omen.He's a Southern California guy. He's a Compton guy. Yes. I don't think that's, you know, I'm goingto the clip is for cheap. No. No shot. Can I float another another option for him as we're talkingabout, you know,a KCP,potentially joiningthe 2026 NBA champion Spurs.What about a return home
55:11for DeRosento a place where he kind ofreinvented his career,a player who could bringsome professionalismand playmaking and orderand structure to that offensewithout maybe taking
55:21so much awayfrom Victor Webbenyama.I wouldn't mindseeing Demar back thereat this stage.See, that's the problemwith someone like DeMarbecause when you bring him in,
55:30he's best utilizedwith the ball in his hands.And so even if you're,a rebuilding team, even if you're Portland, even if you're the Chicago Bulls, as we just said,it's like, do you want to take possessions away from guys we're trying to rear and like bring upinto that role by still feeding tomorrow? I think like you could strike more of a balance with him thansay like Grizzly's era, Alan Iverson. It's not to that agree. But I do think, but I do think likeit's the same sort of logic where it's like, well, the spurs need to be kind of developing
56:03Wembe's on ball stuff and Vassel's on ball stuff, even though it didn't go particularly well last year.And whoever they might draft in this upcoming draft.And so that's where it becomes so tricky with him.It's really like superstar two plus one max deal sort of guy or mid-level.And I don't really see the in between.See, I do see the in between in that I'm not trying to take anything away from Victor Webben, Yama, or Devin Vesel.And to be clear, this would require a sense of urgency in the Spurs where they're looking to be more competitive this season, first and foremost.I'm looking to take shots away from Kelden Johnson.
56:36I'm looking to take shots away from,you know, like, Zach Collins was kind of weaned out of the rotation,but the Zach Collins, Malachi, Branum,like Jeremy Sohan shots.Those are the shots that I'm fine kind of winnowing away from.Yeah.And one, so the thing, the reason why I like this idea is,one, pretty much even Trey Jones,
56:57like I think that DeMars is credible, a playmakeras anybody who already exists on this teamor way better, right?So the upgrade in playmaking alone,I think, is a net positivefor what you're trying to do with Wembe.And then, of course, inevitably,when other people on his team have to take shots,
57:17I'm fine with DeRosen being the guy that's taking theminstead of some of these other cats,you know, that San Antonio was tried out there last season.Yeah, I don't disagree.But since we kind of, like, talked around himin this DeRosen,conversation. Let's move to the trade targets because I want to bring up Brandon Ingram,who's sort of in this mix here where he's like, he wants the max, New Orleans doesn't want to
57:41give it to him. I think he's one of the rare cases of a guy that other teams would want,but their home team is saying that they are probably better off cutting ties with. Whereas likewith Paul George, there's two sides of this where the clippers want him, the Sixers want him,other teams want him with the Pelicans. It's just like, no, we're fine. And he has to findhis next home here. Can I ask you about that? Do, do, do,teams want Brandon Ingram?Well, that gets me to the other half of this.Which is like he's...
58:08Yeah.Yeah, he's a star kind of like DeRosen, but like how much can he just meld into a team with two existing stars?So if we're talking about Philly, for instance, like do you, does he really fit there?Because as we've seen with Ingram on paper, he makes so much sense.He's very long.But then he doesn't really defend all that well.He isn't like an active defender.Nope.
58:30He is a good passer with good vision.but can kind of pound the ball a little bit.He's a good three-point shooter.Chooses not to take them for some odd reason,wants to get to spots.And so, like, if I were to draw up a team in, like, NBA 2K,I'd be like, Brandon Ingram for the Sixers,hell yeah, but in practice, I'm not so sure.
58:48And I think you're going to get into that situationwith a lot of potential suitors.I think the kindest way you can characterizethose quirks in his gameis that he could be your change of pace star.When your primary stuff isn't working,when they're walling up the rim,when they're taking away the three point line,
59:04he's the guy in your teamwho can kind of get into the midrangeand hit tough shots.I just think he is constantly at riskof pressing for more than thatand is almost,with his reluctance to shoot quickcatch and shoot opportunities,
59:19almost useless off the ballon a lot of possessions.And we don't talk about himand the way we talk aboutguys like Luca who just kind of chillwhen they don't have the ball.But this is why Brandon Ingram leaves,leaves me cold, for one.
59:30Like, he had a good seasonby his standards playing his game.I don't want to put him with other starsif I already have them in house.And that makes me wonder what his market is.Who are the teams out there that are clamoring for Brandon Ingram?Yeah, I've been on the Ingram roller coasterbecause, you know, when I moved here to L.A.,
59:49well, when I moved to L.A.,very early on, Brandon Ingram got thereand, like, going to games and watching this dude play.Like, all of the, he's so freaking toolsy.like I'll never get the image of him guarding KDon three straight possessionsand given three straight contests on KD jump shotsthat I was like,
01:00:10there's no other human being on the planet who can do this, right?Like just the defensive potentialthat we always thought this guy hadthat's just never been realized.And I think to myself,he's clearly nobody's version of a one.And the best twos,not only are they great players,
01:00:28they supplement what the one,is doing. They make it better, right? They enhance it like, i.e., Jalen Brown, when he's not guardingthe hell out of people, when he's not spreading, when he's not destroying people in transition,when he's not, you know, being the one person that could put his head down and get to the rack,guess what? He can anchor a freaking whole bench unit, right? Like, he can be complimentaryto what, you know, Jason Tatum might be lacking in any given moment. You can, you cansay the same thing about somebody like a Jamal Murray at his best in the playoffs.And I think most people would be like, Jamal Murray not as talented as Brandon Ingram.
01:01:08But like, guess what?He's a hell of a better too.He's a hell of a better complimentary piece to a guy who's already a star.And so like with Ingram, I'm like, what is he doing when he's not mid-ranging me to death?How is he, is he killing it on the board to me?Is he guarding the hell out of people?Like, is he spreading the floor?God doesn't even want to take spot up jump shots.
01:01:30Like the last guy in the NBA who doesn't like to take spot up threes and just let it fly.Like, I've just like, Rob, I've just completely gone the other way on this guy from where I was at a point wherewhen the lake is traded him to New Orleans, I was like, yo, this guy has so much potential,so much on both ends of the floor.You know, and in certain instances, like you said, his assist totals, when I'm like, man,he's finding it as a playmaker, but it's just never come together, man.So I don't know.I'm curious who to, like, who's the team that it's like, oh, this is going to,
01:02:00be great when we have Ingram here.Yeah. And so to that point, like my instant thought was maybe Cleveland, for instance,because if we're saying that Donovan Mitchell, Mobley is your way forward, can he kind of bridgethe gap there? But I do think it's telling that the Pelicans are kind of in this position wherethey have Zion and a couple interesting guys, but they're trying to potentially trade Ingram in orderto open up playing time for a guy like Trey Murphy, who's more of that fill the seams sort of guy.He connects Zion to the next potential superstar.And so for that reason, I don't think the calves are a perfect fit.
01:02:36I thought about the Hawks, for instance.Like if the Hawks are saying,eh, we're just going to kind of lean into whatever our young cadre is at this point,the number one pick, Jalen Johnson, etc.I don't know if Trey Young is the guy I would go for,but I think there's some thought to maybe like a DeJante Murray for the Pelicans.He becomes more of your one.It doesn't force you to maybe try.
01:02:59trade C.J. McCollum as readily as it would if you were to get some other score first ball handler,because CJ plus Trey, for instance, is just a non-starter. But I think there might be somethingthere, Rob. What do you think about Murray for Ingram? I just don't know why the Hawks would do it.Right? Like, everything that you love about Jalen Johnson, Brandon Ingram is kind of the oppositeof those things. Like, he's not a momentum player. And so if the future of your team that you'relooking at, whether it involves Trey or Dejante or not,or however you want to parse that situation.The other guys that you have around them
01:03:32who are looking like good prospectsand good pieces of your futureare players who need movement and pace and flowand who facilitate those things.And if the person creating the offense in the first placeis someone like Ingram, who's a good player,and we just saw it can be a versatile pieceto help unlock things here and there
01:03:49for a good team in the Pelicans.The Pelicans were a good team.They also have a lot of talent,and they still have a lot of talentthat was kind of underservedgiven their circumstances.And as you said,They're trying to figure out what the best formula is in terms of who should be playing what spots and how.
01:04:03I just, I don't see him as an answer for the Hawks to a degree that almost makes me shut down the trade from their perspective.I think Murray could be good for the Pelicans.I also think, you know, if we want to transition into my trade target, I don't want to throw away the Cavs options so easily.And I think this is where Darius Garland could enter this conversation for the Pelicans too.And for a lot of teams, for that matter.You could see the bones of an Ingram Garland swap with some other pieces involved or picks involved.You could also see ways in which the Pelicans might want to get in on Darius Garland independent of Brandon Ingram.And in his fate, maybe there's some other avenues to explore there.
01:04:38But the more it looks like Donovan Mitchell is going to continue to be a Cleveland Cavalier,the more we at least have to entertain the possibility that Darius Garland will not.Well, let me ask you this.Why would Ingram fit better next to Mitchell and potentially Mowgli rather than even like a Jalen Johnson type?Desperation.Okay.The answer is he won't.Yeah.
01:05:00The answer is Cleveland is a team with more to play forthat needs immediate talent on the floorand has had issues, like even with adding Max Drews,even with trying to plug and support their wing rotation,even when they get good Keros Lavert minutes,they're still always searching for like,okay, what do we do at 3-4?And if you want to entertain the possibilities
01:05:21where, let's say, Jared Allen is no longer a Cleveland Cavalier next season,and you want to play Brandon Ingram more at the four,you want a wing who's more flexible playing three four,then maybe Ingram becomes more attractive for that reason.Yeah, if I was making that call for Cleveland,I would almost prefer to even hold on to Garlandbecause at the very least you get the shooting aspect of it.Maybe this is such like a turf war
01:05:44that only one can survive Highlander style.But I don't know, I would almost prefer Garland in that situation.I almost feel like we're getting to the point where Ingram can't go anywhere.It might be.I think like Portland would be an interesting option for Ingram if you were to trade him for like a grant and a Brogden.But I think similar thing there.Garland though, I think probably provides some other sort of interesting fit complications where it's like which teams out there need a scoring point guard essentially.He's a great playmaker though.
01:06:21Yeah.No, I know.But then like who has a star in house to try.trade to Cleveland because this is what's also difficult about the Ingram conversations waswhere it's like we're not just we're not just treating a our star for picks we want star forstar and that swap tends to be more complicated so you think New Orleans yeah I mean I don't whywouldn't Cleveland just be like I give us Ingram we'll give you this guy and then New Orleansfigure out what they want to do with CJ right because clearly that can't work and then you try to
01:06:52move on from CJ but like he he's a big upgrade to CJ and myopinion.Totally.They also could have drafted him had they nottraded back in theZion draft New Orleans, but that's the story of thePelicans in a lot of ways.The Spurs stuff
01:07:08has been out there with Garland for a long timenow. I think he's a lot of people's wishcasted dream point guard pairingfor Victor Webbenyama. He'd be awesome.But the Pelican stuff has beenboiling up a little recently, maybejust in terms of offseason chatter. I don't know if there's anyactual fire behind that smoke.
01:07:24But New Orleans would be a really good fitfor Garland. And I think a lot of the infrastructureis there for a goodplaymaker to really make some noisein a way that CJ isn'treally beating guys out the dribble in the way he oncewas. He doesn't have the vision thatGarland does. CJ's cooked, yeah.
01:07:40But if you're a point guard like Darius Garlandand you're jumping into CJ's spot,you've got shooting, you've gotfinishers potentially, you've got a lot of spaceand momentum to work with there.All they really need is someone who can kind of consistentlyget things going, and Darius Garland can do that.What do you think about Brooklyn?
01:07:56for Darius Garland.I don't mind it.Do you think you could build from the ground up better with someone like Garland?First of all, he's under contract for longer than Bridges.So there's that aspect to it, which I think is important.But also, Bridges, as we've seen, seems to be more of the connector type that we're talking about here,where it's like teams want that around their two stars, whereas Garland might be a focal pointto then build out around him down the road.
01:08:23This is one of those things where Mikhail Bridges.and Darius Garland are, you know,like they're vaguely in the same class of player.I think you probably make the reasonable argumentthat Darius Garland is a better playerin some ways than McHale Bridges is.But the market on them as a point guardwho isn't very good defensively
01:08:43and we've seen his limitations in the playoffstrying to create against bigger opponentsversus a wing that guards,that plays complimentary roles really well,that can shoot,that doesn't have to have the ball in his hands,the market on those two player archetypes are so different that the idea of trading them for each otheralmost seems unfair to Brooklyn.
01:09:02I think it may be one of those cases where Garland is a better player than Bridges,but they might have to actually include more in the deal if that's the head-to-head swap to make it happen.Yeah.I also thought about Utah for the Bridges type of deal that apparently got shot down with Houston,where it's like, we'll just give you your draft back, we'll just call this a mulligan.You could just have control over your future.Outside of, but I feel like Brooklyn thinks they're trying to be good, better, improve now more so than anything else, right?Like, that seems to be the direction they want ahead.
01:09:39So, and I want to throw, I want to throw a trade at you guys, I'm involved in my trade guy.If we're, whenever we get to my dude.Let's do it.So obviously, so my guy is Tray Young.I'm still super intrigued by his trade prospect.because one, again, I think it's over in Atlanta.They're never going to accomplish anything of substance with Trey Young being the Trey Youngthat has existed there.
01:10:05They've tried a bunch of options.It hasn't worked.Obviously, he's been linked in San Antonio.The Lakers thing has been bandied about as well because I think what I think is importantabout Trey is that he is a legitimate all-star talent.Like, he's legitimately an impactful.offensive player.Like, this guy is legitimately a star.
01:10:29Some of the stuff around it can be toxic,the ancillary stuff.And I got to give props to my man,Nate Duncan, for getting a little bit more creative.He's just like, look,what if Atlanta just gets off his damn moneyand trades for Ben Simmons?Brooklyn gets their freaking star.
01:10:47Atlanta gets off the money.Simmons has one year left on his deal.Bye.Get Finney Smith in there, and then we're done.We've wiped our hands.of the Trey era.Wow.And, and guess what?
01:10:59Brooklyn gets to be like,yo, we got another star in the building.Do I think Brooklyn would really accomplish that much more?Not really.I think Trey needs to go somewhere where he will be forcedto confront a different NBA reality in terms of his approach to the game.I think that would be what's best for his career and for us as fansto see him be the best version of himself.
01:11:21But I think it would make sense for Atlanta to just be like,yeah, we're cutting bait on this guy, and we're moving in a new direction in terms of how thisteam operates, like diluting themselves into thinking, no, this core is like right on thecusp of the four seed. I think it's nuts. Absolutely not. How are the Instagram backgroundsin Atlanta? Do you think that they would be to Ben Simmons's preferences? I think you can get enoughof the dumbbells in the background. I think the Instagram culture of Atlanta would very easilyslot into Ben Simmons's life.Let's just leave it at that.
01:11:59While we're talking social media,I want to talk to you too.Woz is our foremost emoji correspondent.Justin is someone who is terminally online.Trey Young seems uncharable.Trey Young has posted one thing on his Twitter account latelythat is not a black and white social friendly videoof him putting in work.
01:12:20And it's the hourglass emoji,which we should clarify,Is the hourglass emoji in which there is still an ample amount of time left,but is slowly trickling down.Okay, so hopeful hourglass emoji.At least somewhat full.And I'm wondering what we should be interpreting in classic off-season fashionfrom this particular cryptic emoji.
01:12:39To me, that's a classic shit or get off the pot.Like, Atlanta, get serious.Move me or don't.Commit to me or don't.Time's taken.I'm ready.I'm putting it work.I'm going to kill it no matter where I'm at next season.
01:12:51Make a choice.I'm tired of seeing my name.on I'm tired of family members texting me about rumors and this and make a choice.I'm ready.I'm ready to attack the season.I think that's what that means.I like it.Well, the Ben Simmons trade is interesting.
01:13:05Although I wonder if Young's value has dipped that low to the point where it's just contractsand maybe some picks.Like that seems extreme.Let me throw this one at you.Since we brought up the Bridges deal that was pooed by Brooklyn allegedly during the tradedeadline of just Jalen Green plus your draft back. What if you take that same package and trade itfor Trey? So it would be Jalen Green plus contracts plus some picks from Houston for Trey Young.Oh, no. No. No. No. How come? Houston's writing off so many good vibes.
01:13:44And why are you welcoming this into your world? Yeah. If I may hated the Hardin idea,he's going to mutiny.Like, all the things you don't like about Hardinabout his commitment on defense,how he monopolizes an offense, blah, blah, blah, blah.Like, it's, at this point, it's triply true about Tray Young.So it's tough.And, you know, and another thing,
01:14:08some of the Jalen Green stuff at the end of the season,I was very enticed by.And I would be assumed that the people who drafted him,because, you know, historically, teams,are higher and have bigger hard-onsfor their own guys that they drafted than anybody else.So to see some of that actual promise be fulfilled,albeit in March,
01:14:30you know, probably the worst NBA month of every season,like, it's hard to be like,nah, we're going to get rid of thatand bring Tray Young in here.Well, you know what?This was actually a year where March basketballended up matteringin the grand scheme of things more than it has historically.
01:14:44So maybe we haven't been giving Jalen Green his due credit.You know, we talked about him and praised him.You have play there.Well, I take responsibility for that.Look, I am fully happy to have the conversation about how great he looked at March.I don't know if I'm fully ready to have it about, oh, he's just going to carry that over into November.Well, I think that's probably a good window to then maybe sell high on him, where if, like, you don't think he could ultimately vault into our go-to offensive option.Like, why not trade for the adult version of that?
01:15:17Because, like, yeah, I agree with you.Mimi and him might not mesh all that well.On the other hand, like, how many defensive grinder salt of the earth guys do you need?Where it's finally like, we have a defensive culture established.We need to score some goddamn points.And like, what is Trey, if not that in, like, bushels full?The answer to your question is you can never have enough salt of the earth types.Period.
01:15:39Is that what this is?This podcast?Yeah, we're all salt.Well, me and you are Salt of the Earth types.Is Wa's really a Salt of the Earth type?So you're saying I'm not a real America.This is, you go with Sarah Palin on me.I'm not for real America.
01:15:53I didn't say that.I just think you're a little Hollywood at the end of the day.No.Listen, man.Listen, man.I put my pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of you guys.I'm pulling myself up by my bootstrap just as we pod this, okay?They just happened to be in a posh, Mexico City hotel room.
01:16:16We'll ignore.that contradiction.All right.But why don't we wrap it there?No pod for us midweek because of the draft.I think our bosses recognize that we have no value in those conversations.Respect.So I appreciate it, honestly.
01:16:32We appreciate it.And so we'll be back Sunday night.That's kind of the first big night where free agency deals will come down.We'll be coming to you at night this time.So not during the day, as we typically do, will probably be more of a nighttime,overnight sort of thing.So look out for us then.Thank you to Eddie Ocampo.
01:16:49Thank you to Isaiah Blakely.Thank you to Tucker Tashden.Thank you to Ben Cruz.And thank you to you guys for listening.We'll see you next time.
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