The Ringer NBA Show - The Most Intriguing First Impressions From the First Week-ish of the 2025-26 NBA Season | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are here to each give three first impressions from the first week of the NBA season. Intro (0:00:00) Austin Reaves (2:17) Milwaukee Bucks (13:11) Miami Heat (20:08) FanDuel ad break (28:59) LaMelo Ball (30:06) Jonathan Kuminga (37:42) Kyshawn George (47:11) Toronto Raptors (55:37) Ajay Mitchell (1:00:00) Cedric Coward (1:09:56) Also, be sure to check out Michael Pina's newest Ringer.com piece, 13 Overreactions to the First Week of the NBA Season. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Isaiah Blakely, Victoria Valencia and Ben Cruz The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier, joining me, Rob Mahoney. And for the first official time, Jay Kyle, man, what's up, Kyle? Not too terribly much. Just, you know, adjusting to the winter weather hit me as soon as I got off the plane back to Kentucky. But I'm down for it. I like this kind of thing. So I'm good with putting on a sweatshirt and tumbling up and watching some NBA action. You are a bill different. I do like to think of you that way. But Justin, you've been out of the Northeast for so long. Can you even handle the cold? Can you deal with the Kyle and Byrnes? What do you think I'm dealing with out here?

It's like it's dark and rainy like 20 hours a day up in Portland. That's different. That's not quite the same thing. I got coffee. I'm just like huddled under a blanket. Maybe a nice little wine when it's the night hits and I'm watching NBA basketball all the goddamn time now because that's where we are in the NBA season. I have to say I think this might be my favorite part of the calendar.

Like the finals, obviously huge going into. the playoffs, a lot of excitement. But now there's just like so much stuff to like figure out here. I feel like I'm opening up presents, but instead of, you know, like a video game, it's just Mamu Shkelosvili minutes, you know? He looked unusually spry, I will say. He did. We've seen Mamu really pop off against some teams in the past.

I didn't think he was quite that fast. I never seen him move quite that fast before. So revelations for us all to start this season. The old Mamu pop off. Yep. Mamu takes two minutes into this podcast. What a new era. This truly is.

But we'll get to that a little bit later in the show. We do, as we do every time after the first weekend of NBA games in the NBA season. We're going around the horn talking about our most intriguing first impressions. There's just so much stuff out there. We're just going to talk about the stuff that's jumped out to us after what, just almost the week of games here in the 2025, 26 seasons. Rob, why don't we start with 20 years to kick us off? Yeah, I think we have to start with the biggest, the splashiest,

and that's Austin Reeves, who, I mean, has been amazing, has had a great start to the season. Also, it's kind of like the best kind of conundrum for the Lakers in terms of what he represents for the franchise. But before we even get to that, like 51, 9 and 11 against the Kings and looking fucking ridiculous doing it. Honestly, what impressed me most about Reeves against the Kings is like he did all of that. had the heat check threes. He had the on ball pick and roll stuff. He also never stopped hustling

for loose balls, taking charges, doing all of the Austin Reeves, like how he broke into the rotation stuff that got him here to begin with. That's kind of what makes him such a tantalizing player to me is he represents this like perfect intersection of someone who clearly is at a point of his career where he could hypothetically be running a team of his own like he did against the Kings, like he will against second units. Like he will, we can assume while looking at looking at. Kodanchich is out dealing with these injuries for a couple weeks and LeBron out for who knows how long. But he also is just like such a perfect fit in terms of what he represents as a hustle player, as a complimentary player. It's so hard to know what Reeves should be.

Yeah, the hustle in his game, I think, is the thing that has sort of been the stimulating force. Because if you go back, and I don't just mean like him hustling for like a loose ball, I just think this is going to be a take a drink, so me thing that I did. But I went back and I was just like, this is such an interesting developmental story because Reeves was not on our radar. Granted, he was, you know, a D1 player was recruited, played at Wichita State. But I was going back and watching him his first year because he transferred. He was one of the early transfer portal guys, didn't like his role there. Of course, if you hear the stuff about the Greg Marshall stuff, you can go read about that

on your own for what was going on in that program. Know the story for another time. But I was watching what he was at that age. And he looked radically different than he looks now. And Rob, you're talking about the hustle. I'm just kind of like the space between what he is now and what he was then is pretty remarkable. And I think that his attention to the detail in his game and the way that he is clearly hustled after. I know that's cornered.

Hustled after the improvement in the ways that he can refine. He's just so sharp in terms of the detail. Like you can't touch him. He's got all that like rip through, shoot through stuff. You can't do that. He's quick. I feel like his shot, he really has worked on the balance in his shot, where he's. he can get it off from. There was a play last night. Was it Schrooter that had his hand fully on his

hip? And Reeves was just like, fine, I'll set up here. Like, he didn't even dip it at all and just shot. He's so much stronger. I've just really been really impressed by his improvement. It's a really, really remarkable case study. Well, it's funny because the typical trajectory is with like a big old prospect that they learn and they grow into that foul grifting. Reeves kind of had that first and backloaded some of more stars sort of stuff, more of the raw talent sort of stuff. But it was all working last night, including getting to the foul line.

So he went to the stripe 22 times. Can you guys guess how many times that happened just last season? Oh, 22 is an awful lot. I'm going to guess that only happened 13 times last season. It happened three times total. Wow. Three times? It was a jay, I seem.

Holy shit. I didn't have, she didn't come up in this search. Janish, Yokic in two overtimes in Powell Bankero. And then the season before that, also three times, Joel Embed and then Janice two times. So we're dealing with real superstar shit here. Absolutely superstar shit. And the result of that is in terms of actual shots from the field,

you end up with 51 on 22 field goal attempts, which is crazy. So like just incredible usage to efficiency, incredible role, like expansion from Reeves in terms of what we're seeing. And then there's the question of like, okay, so what is he when everything consolidates back? When Luca comes back, when LeBron comes back, what should Austin Reeves be to this team? And I'm left with these two thoughts, which is like, for one, this is a guy who is due for a massive pay race in the summer. He's going to get, I would presume, a max deal or near enough. That leads to and prompts because the Lakers, as we've seen some of these other games, particularly against the Warriors, like this team needs a lot.

They are still a work in progress. they are under construction, facilitates some occasional prompting about like, oh, should they trade Austin Reeves? Should they look into that market? Is a guy who can score 51 against the King so valuable that they should flip him into two or three other useful players who might not fit the team better,

but ultimately give them a little bit better depth? Can you even do that when Reeves is not only this potentially explosive? But he's the one guy on the team who had instant chemistry with Luca. Like they knew immediately how to work together. And why would you give that up? Why would you think about giving that up? And at the same time, the other part of my brain is saying, can you dedicate or should you dedicate a second max or near max deal to a guy who defensively

is a really awkward fit with Luca? Like you have to work around them so much when you have them on the floor together to the point that that's how you get Marcus Smart as a Laker. That's how you get huge Vando minutes. Like there's so much intention that has to go with working around those guys defensively. and yet so much ease in terms of the way they work together offensively. I don't know what to do with them anymore as a pair,

but I'm very eager to see how the Lakers want to navigate it. So you have to base it. You're saying that you're setting yourself up to require a defensive tilt. But you also are, by doing that, you're also kind of creating problems for yourself on offense, where you've got like a Marcus Smart, who the ball just seems to find him. It always has.

You're like, oh, let's see if we can survive this or Jared Vanderbilt. So I mean, I'm just asking, are you proposing they get somebody, they flip that for more of a two-way, more of a palatable thing that could work with Luca. Is it kind of untenable in your opinion? Because I feel like the second side guy has always

been like a classic Luca pairing, but ideally that person is not like a defensive issue also, right? This is the outcome of the first week of the season. If you would ask me this before the season started, I think I would have leaned investigating the trade market for Austin Reese, not because he's not a good player,

but because their needs are mostly elsewhere. for a Luca-driven team. This version of Reeves that is flashing this level of creation and playmaking, who is doing all the stuff we mentioned, who also was like one of the few Lakers to actually figure out a workable chemistry with DeAndre Aiton so far.

Like, there was just an ease and facility to his game. And I'm like, I don't know that you can give that guy up. And maybe the model for the Lakers is like, Austin Reeves is not quite Kyrie Irving, but it's that sort of pairing for them long term in terms of Reeves and Luca and figuring out the rest as you can. He might be too good and too interesting to bail on right now.

Yeah, I think the sticking point with the Lakers overall is how do you cobble together enough defense on the court when you have to play Luca LeBron Reeves because they're all so very good. You can't take any of them off the court. And I still think that's the question. And long term, there's also contract issues here where if you're maxing Reeves, what can you do in addition to that? If you want to move forward with Reeves and Luca as your big two, well, how do you build out the defense even when LeBron isn't here? because then all your precious cap space that the Lakers have been signaling they're going to use at some point. That's not as much of an option anymore. I think their best course of action might be because Reeves has now just shown that he's too good to trade, as Rob said.

Like maybe you could ball together some contracts outside of the big three and then get that guy that way. So you're not dealing for a Lori Markinen. You're dealing for whatever the better version of Dory Finney Smith is, right? Just to like add something on the court here because I think the one, one thing, Kyle, that like really jumped out to me, even when Luca was in there, that this team is going to be so blistering offensively that they are going to have an identity. Like, yeah, we'll talk about the playoffs later on, but like as a regular season offense, I would be surprised if they don't end up top three when, if those guys are able to play

enough. Yeah. I mean, they're going to score points. And obviously, you know, the way that they play, um, Reeves, you were talking about shooting the 22 fritos. It's just, it's fascinating to have a duo like this. I don't know if we talked about it enough in the preseason. Honestly, it like figured or gave Reeves his credit because, you know, he got the 22 free throws, but I was looking at his, you know, possession type here. And he got 22 points just in ball screens, period. So you've got a guy who's getting to the rim and pulling the defense uphill. I said one time, I got some grief for this, but I said he's in the Manu mold. I'm not saying it's not a one-to-one thing. But I think he's he's in that mold where it's like he's so highly qualified to. play that supplementary decision maker score type, but you're like, I think I would just hang on to him.

I'm with you, Justin. I think that he's finding that in the market, I think, is something that they would be kicking themselves later if they put themselves in the position to try to replace it. Like, you know, if you, it's just, you've got something that's working. I would just continue trying to figure out how to build around it. But I don't know. I mean, defensively, is it going to be like such a damning thing down the road, you know? Yeah. Well, circling back to your point about just like his trajectory just to get here in the first place, I was writing down some of the best undrafted guys in the league because I think he's like, he's on the short list. Oh, yeah. Probably historically at this point, if only because a lot of the better cases are more modern to begin with. I think Ben Wallace is the shiny example at this point. He's at the top of the Mount Rushmore, if only because he's in the Hall of Fame, none of these guys have gotten to that point just yet. Fred Van Vleet, Eudas Haslam, Caruso, Dork, Covington, Nas Reid, our own Rajas, Bell and John Starks.

I think if it was like a two-team sort of situation, Reeves is on there, no? I think he's on there. And not only that, but what separates him from the vast majority of those players is he isn't a defense-first hustle junkie only, right? Like, he has not been Wallace. He's probably going to go down as not just one of the best

undrafted players ever, but the singular best undrafted scorer ever. Like we just don't see guys come in and get this kind of leash and this kind of opportunity. and also thrive and show what they can do over this long a term, right? This is not a insanity moment. We are now talking year over year over year

of Austin Reeves just proving he can be a really high level score, high level creator while playing alongside LeBron James, alongside Luca Donchich. And now even when you take away all of the training wheels, he's putting up 51. Yeah.

I think he has a shot to be probably the best of all of them, but I guess we'll see. Since we're talking about undrafted guys, Why don't we talk to a team. It's cobbling together a few of them just to make a rotation at this point. We're talking about the Milwaukee Bucks who are two and one as we're recording this on Monday morning. And I have to say, I was expecting to not enjoy Bucks basketball. I was expecting one last job sort of energy from this team where it's just like, we're just going to make do.

We got to do this just to do right by Janus. And we'll have some fun along the way, but there will be no stakes here. There's actually like some life, some pep to the. the offense that I was not expected. I think part of it is shooters plus Janus is the recipe for successful basketball for the past half decade plus at this point. So there's always going to be a high floor to this team. But there's a lot more flow going on here than I was ever expecting. I think part of it is when you add so many shooters to this team that they're just used to getting off the ball and moving it because if you're a role player, you're not used to having the ball in

your hands. And so it is pinging a little bit more than I'm expecting. I also think having Turner in there as opposed to someone like Brooke Lopez who runs like he's just like going uphill and snow most of the time. Like having Turner, who is big and still a threat as a defensive rim protector, just being able to flow because he has all this muscle memory from the Pacers. Like I think it's carrying over to this team to the point where it's like there was one play in the first game against the Wizards where it's, I think it was Kevin Porter in a corner, kicks it to Turner at the fall line. He's already thinking swing it to the other corner for a three for AJ Green. There's just like, there's a lot more movement going on to this team than I expected. The flip side, though, Rob, is that a lot of this is coming down to what Janus can do. To the point where over the course of the three games, I was like, oh, man, pretty low ceiling, you know, if it's just Janus.

But like, oh, that's fun. And then I was like, oh, man, can they withstand a Janus injury? I don't know if they can't. It's like, can they withstand him not being on the court? can they withstand him being doubled? What happens when they just have to figure that out on the fly? So I would say I'm more encouraged overall, but, you know, there's some stuff to still figure out here.

There's a lot to figure out. But look, a team with Janus can never be worse than fine. Like, he's just too good and too dominant. And he's going to dominate in ways that you can't double, right? It's like all the transitional spaces of basketball. He's so big and so physical and so fast. Like, you can't shut that stuff down. So you can build your cute little walls and you can double team.

in the half court and you can do all that stuff. I do think Doc needs to figure out the lineups around Janus, like, needs to be a little more conscious of the shooting sometimes. There have been times early in the season. We're just kind of rolling out groups that don't quite fit together or the lineups without

Janus. That kind of needs to be the five genuinely playable bucks and not just like the supporting guys who Janus can help prop up. There's some stuff in the rotation that needs to be sorted out. But ultimately, I have liked the balance of what they're doing. Janus looks unbelievable to start this season.

And Cole Anthony looks like he's just essential personnel all of a sudden. Until he's not playing. And then it's just like, oh, Andre Jackson, you're still here. Well, I think you saw how essential he was in absence as well. And ultimately, they just need drivers in that way, right? They need guys who can get into the paint who are going to be a threat to actually pull up. And Cole Anthony, for better or worse, is going to be a threat to pull up, basically whenever he feels like it. I was shocked at how much I liked seeing Cole Anthony and Ryan Rollins, two little munchkins

out there playing together. I was going to say, I always call them, oh, go ahead. I was going to say, I always call them pilot fish. I was like, if you ever watched those little bitty fish that swim, I've made this comparison over and over again. There's a certain type of player that swims next to a gigantic fish and just sort of, you know, eats whatever is, whatever is created or whatever the big fish gets. And I feel like there are certain types.

And like Cole Anthony was drafted to the Orlando model, which was emulating the Milwaukee model at the time of like let's hey our big bruising freakish downhill guy is going to be the focus of what we do still trying to do with palo still figuring it out with palo but yonis is just the ultimate version of that and it's like rob like you were saying it's like you're always going to have at least a fine or it's going to be it's never going to be less than fine i guess the way you phrased it but like you're always going to have opportunities uh because he's the highest form of that and it's like cole is going to thrive and i'm not surprised that he's like immediately kind of rolling off the assembly line and functioning because

he can play off the catch and go score. But I think yeah, it's kind of an amalgamation too of the of the Turner thing that Turner's ready. So in that sense, I think they have done a good job of sort of putting something together that's going to work. I'm curious to see how if it starts to be stressed in any way like you'll do just like it's it's a lot to put on Janus. And yeah, as the schedule goes on, I'll be curious to see. I think, like, there's proof of life here, though. So, like, if you were thinking to yourself, if you're the bucks, like, how far do we follow this down the rabbit hole? Like, do we give up the, like, one precious protected pick that we might have down the road here?

It's like, oh, maybe you just get a creator in there and then maybe you could be a more feisty playoff team down the road there. But I think the question now is, like, how long Yannis can stay upright? Because as we've seen in past regular seasons, Rob, like, the dings and dents are starting to come. considering how hard he plays. And like there are times where like I was watching the Raptors game, the Buck's Raptors game. And like he had to beg out in the first quarter, which I've never seen before where he's like,

get me out of here. I'm too tired. Part of that was because he yelled so gutterily that I think he tuckered himself out. Like he dunked on someone. He's like, and then like two plays later, he's like, I got to get out of here.

But there's so much on him to the point where like they were talking about him bringing the ball up. But then all of a sudden like teams are instantly like, I'll just put a guy on him carrying it up, tire him out, and then he has to get it off the ball immediately. And that kind of slows down his momentum from those battering ramp. But I think the injuries are concerned, but just like fatigue and how many miles he's going to get early on.

Yeah, I mean, that's where the Cole Anthony's are really important too. It's just like how much of the basic logistics of running an offense can you take off of Janus, even if it's just getting him the ball in the half court as opposed to a full court, as you said, Justin. Every buck's role player has that burden in some way. If you're AJ Green, if you're Carrie Trent Jr.

And boy, are those guys getting it up. Gary in particular, like, the trigger has been quick in a way that it needs to be quick. But, like, what is the little bit of relief that you can offer, Yonis to make some of his minutes a little easier? And then you hope cumulatively over the course of a week and a month and a season leads to a little bit less of that wear and tear. I mean, you can't stop the guy from the guttural screams, but maybe you can stop him from breaking down a little bit. This is so much fun. He's like my five-year-old. he has a big tantrum and then has to go lay down like it's tired kind of thing it takes a lot out of you

yelling takes a lot out of you well since we're talking about surprising east teams uh kyle do you want to go with one of yours uh yeah uh we alluded to this a little bit in the last episode but what's going on in miami is pretty interesting increasingly interesting you know they lost that close game to orlando and we kind of had the like slight eyebrow up i think that was when we were in l a and i'm full blown the rock you know w-we the eyebrow is way way up What's going on? I was impressed people like I can do, bro. That was for you guys.

So, no, I mean, this team, you know, first three games, offensively, there's just something interesting going on with them. A, I think adding norm to the mix. They're just playing faster, number one. I think they're addressing some of their maybe just talent concerns. You know, that's one of the classic things is like, okay, let's just hit people in the mouth with our pace and our speed. You hear it's both.

So we're trying to figure out what it is that's working because yesterday, they beat the Knicks. And honestly, it kind of felt like they were in control for a lot of that game. So, well, let's compartmentalize and start here. Like what is going on with them offensively? Second in the league and pace through three games. The second thing that I noted here is that Bam is, they're spacing more. Bam's three point rate is the highest of his career.

The second, he's at 0.4.199 was the second highest in the past. So he's taking more of them. So that's part of the puzzle. The other thing is that I've noticed that, and there was a little bit of a theme last year where Memphis was doing this. I don't know if it was one of the bigger stories in the NBA for people who don't track like the minutia where Memphis was removing ball screens from the equation, basically, because we've become such a league that we meet. You know, I'm in the league. When I say we, that's me. I'm talking about my contributions to the actual on-court action.

But, you know, we've become such a game. It's become such a game of chess using switches as the way to sort of get your advantages. and teams have just said, fuck that. We're not doing that anymore. So we've kind of, everything is under the sun, nothing new under the sun. We're doing like a dribble drive type thing where we're just driving, pitching, getting advantage and not doing that. So you're seeing some of that.

And Norm Powell is just a great, a great sort of addition if you're going to play that way. So I just kind of throw that to you guys. Those are my first initial observations for what they're doing. And I think this is going to get more attention as it keeps going. I mean, Norm is so good at that kind of fast and loose pitch basketball style. Like he's so good if you can get him any kind of natural movement whatsoever. He's so fluid. He gets into those spaces in the middle of the floor.

He's got the floater. He's got the step back. He can draw fouls. He will occasionally make a play. But really, he's there to be a buzz sauce score. And I think we just owe him an apology. Because I remember at this time last season, Justin, Norm was doing the like Paul George leaving his addition by subtraction.

And we kind of had our fun with that. But he was awfully right. And coming into this season, I wasn't sure that he were. going to be good enough offensively. You know, you bet on the defense. You know that that's going to be competent and professional. I just didn't think they were going to have enough scoring. Here they are without Tyler Hero.

And Norm is just carrying everything they need to carry. Yeah, it's real Kyle Corver on the 60 Windhawks sort of vibe going on here. He's just like so dangerous with the shooting that it just creates opportunities elsewhere. Well, Kyle hit on the broader trend, which I've been kind of silently tracking here, is not only how much is there a trickle down effect from the pacer? and the ball movement and the depth and the pace and what we've seen from there. But I think other teams are starting to pick up on what Memphis did. Because if you do not have a go-to star that you can spam, pick, and rolls,

I think everyone's looking at this is like the go-to option in order to spread it around. Portland in particular, brought in Tiago Splitter from Paris specifically to run this. They got the guy from Memphis, St. Andrews to do that as well. That's already the first Blazers swear jar moment. Like, they're not even in this segment. They literally just. Blazers swear drawer is great. Can we put a coin in a jar?

Come on. I was going to ask you. That is a good bit, but I will just say the Blazers coach just got arrested by the FBI. Sure. I feel like I have an opening to talk about this, though. Do you think that this is sort of a broader macro kind of thought? Do you think this is a schematic response to the roster building constraints of the league now, that we're no longer a big three league?

So we're in a position where you have to build teams a certain way. I just thought of that just now. I don't know. I do think it's part of it. Justin, I think you nailed it, which is like if you do not have that guy running heavy pick and roll is counterproductive. Like you were just going to dig yourself into too many holes, especially in those half court possessions, where then all of a sudden it's like, what are we really creating? What is the advantage that we are manifesting by having Tyler Hero run 45 pick and rolls

in a game? Like it just doesn't get you anywhere. And Tyler Hero is a perfectly fine score and player. But even when he's out there, he's not bailing out the heat offense in that way. the pace is really what gets all this, like, makes it feel cohesive. And this is, Kyle, you talked about them playing fast. This is not just fast. This is the fastest Miami Heat team I have seen in my entire lifetime.

Like, this is not what they do. This is not how they play. And that includes them trying to space the floor out with Eric Spolster and kind of the Heald's teams, right? Like they have attempted to play a more open style of offense before, but never quite this fast, never quite this loose. And I think they're doing it because they don't have. that alternative because in some ways,

Bam never became like a go-to offensive player because Tyler Hero does not show, had the tracks of becoming one. And Norm Powell for all of his strengths as a player is one that you want in flow, in system, in movement. So why not create that movement? Why not get playing as fast as you can? Why not steer away from the things

that are going to bog the offense down naturally? And it's not going to make Miami an elite offensive team, but it's going to make them more than good enough to win games like the ones we've seen so far. what have you been saying is the sticking point with the heat for the past two seasons or so practically since they got rid of Jimmy or maybe even when they had him they just have a lot of okay guys right and if anything they compounded that by bringing in a fantacchio bringing in Powell we're like what's the future here well those guys are just pretty good well you just run out two waves of guys in the way that the pacer's have way other teams have and you play at high octane paces with flow and you're turning a disadvantage into an advantage and to Kyle your point about the no ball screens thing. The all NBA podcast, we did this out today. 22 on ball screens per 100 would be the fewest in the tracking era.

And so they're just taking it to an extreme. It doesn't surprise me at the heat of all teams would seize upon this as a way to, to like the next trend kind of jump on that. These eyes work, baby. That's right. And they don't even have Terry Rosier. Right. Free Terry.

I was at the Louisville game Friday night and a kid had a free Terry son. Anyway, yeah, I mean, they've just kind of, they've deflated like the handoff cutting. They're not depending on it as much. I guess the kind of the thing that could take further deflate what's going on is, you know, they've been getting stops. They've been gang defensive rebounding. And that's get, and they are advancing. It drives me insane when I watch teams that don't advance the ball.

Like, I mean, like, I was, I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, half court is definitely chess. Transition is just checkers. Just advance it as far. Get to the back line as fast as you can. And it just shocks me how many teams don't do that. And Miami, yeah, I mean, they've been rebounding the hell out of the ball. And Hawkes looks, Hawkes after just sort of a weird year last year.

I know. He just looks refocused from conversations I've had. It just seems like he maybe had a year where he was like, all right, recalibration time. You know, like we got to reset. And he just, he looks like himself again. And then, you know, Powell obviously rebound in his position well. But you mentioned Fatechio. he's spolstress talked about how they're just putting Fontechio in these positions with the second unit to have the mindset of a primary guy and just like go and just let it fly.

So yeah, they're fun to watch. If they can't get stops, if they're not going to be able to, that's going to, it'll make you wonder what they're going to be like in a half court. But it's interesting so far. Davial Mitchell pesters, Jalen Brunson. Did you all notice that? He was, he was up his ass. A lot of people, Kyle. I mean, he's turned out to be like exactly what they need at the point of attack in multiple ways, right?

Like obviously getting into guys like Brunson, but also just his ability to make basic drives and get some of that movement going, I think just works so well for the way that the heater trying to play. Not ball dominant, but exactly the kind of point guard who helps this sort of system. And honestly, on the hockey side's front, like, it's not shocking to me that this sort of flow would suit him better than be in the corner and try to make a play from the second side. in a more static kind of way. Like he is a guy who is all feel in a lot, in a lot of senses. And so putting he's a better athlete that he gets credit for, though. Don't do that.

I think he can be, I think he is a good athlete, especially from relative to expectations. But it's like you need, again, some kind of baseline movement to get him into the flow of things to make use of the way he sees the floor. Yeah.

So they're two and one and the one was against the magic, which kind of slipped away at the end there. And so like, I think they're looking pretty legit at this point. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fandul. All right, basketball's back and Fandul's putting you in control right from tip off. Every day to start the season, you get to choose your award. Play it safe, go for it.

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Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-dash-Elp.com. Call 1-88-7-8-8-9-77- or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Do we want to go to your next one, Rob? I would love to. I mean, while we're talking hit-aheads, while we're talking, you know,

the aggressive transition game, I would like to talk to you both about the good word, regarding La Mello Ball. Contrary to what you've seen on social media, Lamello has been awesome to start this season by and large. He just is one of these players who has a way of melting people's brains. I have not had a normal conversation about Lamello Ball in what feels like months, if not years.

And so I would like to have a normal conversation with the two of you about him. I don't think that's going to be possible considering what we saw in the Philly game. Listen, I've always considered myself something. of a lamello moderate where it's like the talent is so obvious. And I actually think the issue with him isn't so much the Lucy Goosey stuff. It is the injuries, right? You deal with someone's that talented. You deal with a couple of mercurial personality traits or just in his case, just spaciness, right? You could sell yourself on figuring that out eventually. But the shot he took at the end of that Sixers game, which was a one-footed fall away step back from like a few,

feet out with the game tied on the line. And lots of time. So lots of fucking time was appalling. I was like, that's it. I'm done. I just, I have to get out at this point. That was so atrocious. See, you're what's wrong with this country, Justin.

You're an alleged moderate. And yet one thing happens and you're like, no. My voting record is now flipping completely. I just needed the slightest possible nudge. Look, I can't defend it. That was that shot against the Sixers in crunch time in a huge moment, the single dumbest play I have seen any player make this season, bar none. That said, we need all this stuff in context.

Like, that is one shot relative to the greater body of work. And the vast majority of La Mello Ball basketball this season is playing inspired winning basketball. Like doing all kinds of little things, doing all kinds of big things, driving an offense, putting up crazy numbers, digging out offensive rebounds from like, doomed demusa diabate pick and rolls. Like he's doing all of the stuff that you want Lamello ball to do. He just also occasionally will take that one shot.

And we need to understand and not make space for that shot. We just need to understand it in context. Like that's bad. That's a bad call. Should not have done it. That is one play relative to at this point hundreds over the course of this season that have been moving the hornets in a positive winning direction.

They are making. even more interesting than I thought. Like I feel like the intelligence that they added off the ball around him is pretty, it's pretty like stable in a way that it hasn't been in a while for them. And I think that Colkbriner is, you know, this is becoming like a cliche thing to say on podcast, but he's just an adult. Like he just, he really, really understands, you know, how to, he understands how to, he understands how to play at pace because he comes from that kind of a system.

He's used to it. and a complex information-heavy system. So playing with Lamello, I don't think is a dizzying thing for him in the way that they've had trouble with that in the past. I've always kind of been a guy who I've been more on the pro Lamello's side and defending him because of this, because Rob and I were talking about this, where we have this thing where we were talking about Yokic

and this triggered this for me, where really, really creative players who bleed off the page and into messiness, we treat them, pretty harshly early in their careers. What is Lamello? 23 now? He's pretty, I mean, he's still really, really young. We just have a, we have a tendency to really ding them and dismiss them. You know, I'm not saying he is Steph, but Steph was treated similarly where it was just like,

all right, this guy, this is, you're too wild, this is unserious. It just kind of makes you wonder, like, I don't, I don't know if Lamello is going to reach the same level of maturity, but, you know, early in Yokic's career, he was emotionally volatile. He was wild with the ball. it was just kind of a, we were waiting for him to level up and become kind of a grown-up in a competitive sense. And Lamello's just kind of like, I guess when we're deciding whether we're in or out, like Justin was saying, we're kind of deciding whether or not we think that'll happen. I'm maybe just a tinge skeptical about that. But man, what a, what a freaking talent, man. It's just, if he can just cut those 40-footers, sidestep 40-footers at crunch time, maybe fewer of those. But, man, he makes a lot of crazy, tough shots. He does. Just those crucial plays to lose.

lose a game if he just doesn't do that. I think the difference is honestly, like, humility. Like, there's a ceiling to, like, the chaotic energy that Steph and Yokic kind of harness in order to do what they do. Like, with Lamello, there's no filter. And that's always been the problem. It's just like, his bad stuff is, like, pretty damaging. Whereas, like, Steph turns the ball over all the time and you just get used to it. Curr has basically had to just realize he's going to lose his hair at a certain point just because Steph is doing this. And, like, does so much great stuff that it bounces out in the end run. I do wonder at Net. if that's the case with the mellow.

But I think you guys are right. I have noticed like the stuff they're building around him feels a little bit more stable. And that's why going for a guy like Khan who might not have the ceiling of an Ace Bailey probably fits in particular with what they have. It's a little disappointing because Brandon Miller got hurt and you got to see if he's, if that's a long term thing. That was not worrisome. Like walking off the floor with what looked like an excruciating shoulder injury for no explicable reason, I am very concerned. For a guy who has a hard time dribbling through shoulder.

attack when he has the ball. They've looked good though, dude. It's kind of, it makes you wonder if they're going to talk about that. Yeah, it's early, but you know, yeah. Well, yeah, and they've played, I think, the three worst teams in the league at this point. So that's a caveat to mention here. But you're right, it's not like, even their, they're like lower draft picks. It's not like the Nick Smith type where it's like a creator who probably won't end up on the roster three years from now because he has juice, but not enough. It's like, oh, Sion James, who's like, oh, he has a clear role as a defensive guy for a couple minutes a game. Like, it seems like they're thinking more about insulating lamello than in years past.

They definitely are. In the meantime, like... Cian? Yeah, it is Cian. See, I tried to sidestep out. We just walked up. We joked about it. I had to do it.

I had to do it. I need a jar for being a jerk, okay? We need a jar for doing your job in a professional manner, Justin. The flow of the Charlotte Hornets looks so much better. I mean, some of that is just like having. having lamello back and healthy. Some of it is having more ball handlers on the floor and just guys who can make those sorts of decisions. Just all of a sudden, they look like a much more functional NBA team. And I'm here for all that. I do, as you alluded to, JV, want to see it against

a higher level of competition. But, you know, we'll take the easy entry ramp into the season. I'm not opposed to that for a team like Charlotte. Well, I was going to, I had one last thing. I was just, there's one, there was one basic action that they did that I'm trying to remember if they've had this in the past, but they just ran the staggered, the staggered screen with Kalkbrenner going to the rim and he's gigantic and then Kahn popping. I don't remember them having like that level of competency, like the polarity of that. Can you think of a shooter that they've had that has commanded respect like that in the past couple of years? I just think Lamello has more to work with. Like, am I forgetting somebody? No, last season when Lamello was out, they

were trying to find a guy who could dribble. Like, that's where we're coming from. And so forget the staggered screen. It was like, can we have a player who can initiate the pick and roll? We're already far and away where we were in March and February for sure. Well, since we're talking about reformed boneheads, I think we have to talk about Jonathan Kaminga right now. So they were in town Friday. I went to that game. And I got to say, I was struck by how just like not divorced from the entire team Jonathan Kaminga is on the court. just feels like whatever happened as a result of the contract situation, perhaps because there was just such a big show of things, including his agent doing a bunch of podcasts, that like he realized something had to change at this point, or perhaps more likely it's just like there's a realization from both sides that this has to be a marriage of convenience for at least half a season until we get to the trade deadline. But he's very much playing within the flow because the great thing about comminga is he brings this extra element, right? That physical bullying. the China shop sort of thing that the warriors typically haven't had. The problem has been,

has just been so ancillary or divorced from the main apparatus where you have this beautiful symphony of ball movement and balletic plays and ball finding energy. And then Kamenga just like rippin' solo. It's like, it's like a hundred percent what it's like. It's like a band that is playing together. And then he's like, I'm trying to think of it. No, he's been like Jack Black at the beginning of School of Rock, like taking a 12 minute solo that absolutely nobody. what he wants. It's like, all right, dude. There's a song going on.

He's just standing around looking like, what are you doing? And in this case, like, it just feels like he's taking the opportunities that are presented to himself. He's rebounding the basketball. This big physical, massive athlete is doubling his rebounding average

just because he's going and tracking down the ball when it goes there. There have been some cases where he's like, hand is up or like people have had to calm him down. But in the grand scheme of things, like this is the best I've seen from him in his entire career. I am amazed and so frustrated.

Like, just so frustrated that you could be doing this the entire time. He's been on strike. He's been on strike for four years because Steve Kerr wouldn't let him take dumb shots. And you just could have been doing this. You could have been being exactly the kind of like Sean Marion, Aaron Gordon mold that this team wanted and needed you to be. And like, maybe this is my inner pickup basketball player coming out, but it's like the guys that irk me and I have constant dialogue with are the ones who it's like,

oh, I could defend. And then the one time they do, they look at you like, see, I can do like, see, I can guard people. And it's like, yeah, you could have been doing it every time we played. You could have been rebounding like this every game of your career. Are you getting on people, Rob, and pick up? I cannot envision that. Can you?

I cannot see that. I feel like Rob would just silently suffer. It is a dog in him. It is mostly silently suffering. But there's some good natured ribbing. You know, some of it is like gentle encouragement. I'm trying to bring the best out of everyone around me. I want the Jonathan Comingas to be the Sean Marians within them.

And yet for years, they're out here in the wilderness doing God knows what when this player, who is an awesome player, could have just been a part of the Warriors like machine every step of the way. I think a big tilt that's happened. You know, early, they were, early on, they were trying to, they had the, obviously, the title is rigged year. They were trying to figure out how can we incorporate this in a minimized way. You know, I remember writing a Justin.

where we wrote about rookies. I specifically was watching him. And they were using him as like a screener who was like forcing a center to chase him on a smaller lineup, forcing a center to chase him around the screen. And then he's just rocketing to the rim and things like that. But those were more situational like break glass. We have this little sliver of what we're doing. And as they've needed him to mature, like you were saying, the stubbornness has really shifted, I think, towards you can see it in his, I was going through and looking at some of his how often he's getting off the ball just when he drives. those numbers are wildly different. He's up to passing the ball 50% of the time on his drives where it was like down in the 20s in the past. So it's just like stubbornness, you know, going to the basket, like I'm going to get it up. And that had been a trend for him. He had been on that like, I'm going to develop into a pick and roll guy because a lot of guys get that mentality early on because they think that's the path of fame and fortune. And it's like Steve Kirk clearly has a disdain for those types of guys. That's why Derek White succeeded and not Jason Tatum or Brandon Ingram doesn't succeed. You can just see that is Kerr's philosophy is get off the freaking

ball, get to the basket. So yeah, it's been nice. It's been nice to see somebody got to him. I don't know what the breakthrough was. I don't know what film session it was, but somebody got to him. Kerr's doing the typical, like all the vetting rallied around him after the contract stuff. I don't know. The wars have been very cloak and dagger with the media where they're just like they're saying certain things. And then the next day they're completely walking that back. So who knows. But like the passing is the thing that everyone's highlighting. It's just like he is being more willing. He's moving the ball.

And also you're starting to see like when he's playing within the flow, he can't read things in a way where he's making the right move if he's like engaged to do so. I think the question, Rob, is just like at what point does this spiral? Like if he's at the deadline and they're like, oh, this is going so well. We can't trade you for something comparable. We just got to keep you. Does he then spiral out there? But I think he's playing well enough.

And if he continues this over. you'll be like, ah, shit, this wasn't my plan. It's like it was a facade the whole time. If I do that, I can get out of here and then run some balls screen. I think the best case scenario is if the bowls are a team that plays similarly, that might have been worried about his ball slopping, be like, oh, well, like, if he's flowing here, let's just bring him in if we get him at a low cost and then we'll do that. But you never know.

Like, this could change by the time this podcast goes up. That's the thing. Like if the switch can flip on this quickly, you can switch off just as fast. As soon as Jonathan Cuminga is done with this little experiment, and that really is everything in context. It's like, who does Jonathan Cumingo want to be and believe he can be as a basketball player?

And is this the make good situation to get himself traded, to get himself to a different spot where he can flex all of the creativity that he would love to flex and thus not be the exact player we're seeing on the court right now? If that's what he wants, that's a tragic basketball story. I really hope he learned something from this. Look, I hope Steve Kerr and the Warriors learn something from this whole saga, too. Like, they probably could have, like, put him on a different kind of track that is mediating these two extremes.

They could have gotten him to this point through a much more constructive and healthy relationship. They are not without blood on their hands as far as, like, why Jonathan Cominga is, you know, irked by his circumstances. But he also could have been this guy. And so, like, so clearly and so easily could have been this guy that I cannot help be frustrated by it. Well, Kyle, are you buying the Warriors as like top, top, upper echelon at this point? Because I think when we all talked about this, we're like, kind of old, you know, Horford isn't playing back to backs.

They're pacing guys out. But like, the depth is there. Kaminga is going to play this well. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's the idea of, it's so hard in this league to have a concept, or an identity that is this functional, just getting one, but also there's his time tested. They still have a lot of continuity.

Jimmy fits into that. Steph is still humming along. I mean, Steph has changed some ways in terms of what he's able to shoulder himself on a night-to-night basis, as we in our upper 30s all know, you can't be the same dude every single night. You know, I'm just saying some nights to you. Well, speak for yourself, Kyle. Like, I am the model of consistency.

I'm going to bed at 9 o'clock. I always say some nights I think to myself, God damn it, Kyle, you still got it. And then the next night I'm like, and then the next night I'm like, I'm going to just be one of those cycling guys that wears the jersey and pretends to be sponsored by Papa Johns

or whatever it is. But, you know, I just think, no, I do. I think they're going to be an extremely tough out. And I think the way the, yeah, they're going to be good. Yeah, I really do believe in it. But I am a long time sort of believer in the way that they play and in Steph.

You know, I feel like I'm going to go down with the ship in terms of them. you know, in terms of the way they play. Yeah, I mean, like, they're a creaky older team. When I saw them, they were on the second end of a back-to-back. And it's just like, maybe those like games, they don't win as easily,

although you don't come into Portland anymore and just roll over, you know what I mean? That's another quarter in the jar. Especially after your coach, she gets arrested by the FBI a couple days before. But I just think, like, they might have the depth as this goes along in order to get those wins

in order to get a top seat, which is my concern in the first place. And Will Richard. Yeah, you know, they've had some surprises. He's such a Warriors player. Like, already just out of the box. Just really, really fits. Real like Brandon Rush vibes. I'm getting from him.

I think he's scrappier than Brandon Rush. Like Brandon Rush always struck me as like, you know, a good hypothetical two-way wing, but didn't really want to get his hands dirty like Will Richard does. Tuxedo. Tuxedo guy. This is the thing. Big time. All right.

Since we're talking about two-way wing. Uh, Kyle, do you want to go with one of yours? Uh, yeah. Do you want to start? Well, I was going to jump off because the game that we were watching the Hornets game. Keish, Kishon, I always want to call him Kai Shan. No, no coins in the jar here. Got it. Not in front of wrong. The standard, the pronunciation homework that's going to go on this pod. We've already said it. Okay. Yeah, Kishan George, we were having conversations about like the redraft from 2024, I guess. I was telling you guys, I was like, man, I'm starting to feel like he's potentially perilously high in this in terms of, you know, who would you for sure take over him?

And I was just like, Riesasay, Castle, Luzellis. So it was getting to that point. Yeah. Great size. First couple games, he just like blows the door off of doors off of Dallas, basically in ball screens, playing with great pace. A lot of those things in Washington this past summer, I was like, he was a big part of, you know, he looked great at Summer League.

He was just really poised. He looked like a grown up out there was doing his things. thing. Nobody could really bother him. It looked like he had adjusted and acclimated the NBA game in a real way and something that suggested a leap was coming. First couple games, we're like, okay, I think that could be the case. I think he had like 34 against Dallas. I'm of two minds about this because I do think that the potential is there. It's real. I love the pace that he plays with. He looks good in the pain. He's long. He's angular. He can score the ball, gets off the ball when he needs to. his defensive effort against Charlotte was so bad.

And this is the thing. If he's going to be this guy, if that's going to be true, the thing that is going to cement it and make it permanent is his ability to, okay, you're no longer like this hypothetical thing that people are just kind of like, ooh, buzzy, yeah, this is cool, this is fun. You're going to become a real guy and move up the call sheet. So last night he gets Miles Bridges. He gets Miles Bridges' attention.

And Kishon, this is just my opinion. quit. He got so frustrated with Miles Bridges guarding him. He at one point, I think he had six points last night. His effort, if you want to go back and watch every Charlotte bucket in the second half, Kishon was partly responsible and he's fouling way too much. Yeah. Okay. See, this is the thing. Dude. He was in foul trouble that entire game. And he is a player who, like many young guys, does not know how to play with foul trouble yet. Like does not know how to modulate his effort and activity. He has one gear defensively, and it's pesky, involved, incredibly active. And if you shut that down, he does kind of zone out a little bit. He plays with his hands before his feet

an awful lot. That's all I'll say. But the hands are good. Can we slow down for just one second? I just want to, I'm not writing him off. I'm just saying, man, it was just, it was bad. It was poor. On offense, he gave poor effort too. It was just, you got to be that guy. You got to be that guy. Yeah. Let me, let me recap what's what's happening right now here. He's not George, a player, nobody has heard of, played his two best games of his entire life. Yes. And I'm, and I'm taking him down a bit. Okay, okay.

And Kyle has already decided to zag against that and just tear him down. No, look, I'm not sagging against him being good. I'm just, I'm saying, if you're going to be that guy, this is the difference between being somebody who's like a Julian Strother who's like, oh, man, he came in. Wow, he's fun. Maybe someday. And like, every night, people know you're coming. And that's the difference. That's the difference between a star.

And I just, I'm going to be watching to see what happens with that. Because I just, I didn't like his body language. I was like he just kind of seemed like he quit. And he's 22 years old. I don't, I think that this, this is something I'm keeping an eye on. I'm not, you guys are so extremes. It's been three games. Well, Rob is that we should mention is the biggest Kishon George defender on the internet.

Let us have this. Like, let us have our moment before we start zagging. And look, I, like, I had my concerns. like, do we really want to bring Kyle into the podcast? Is he going to outflank me? Zag in the zag on being a basketball hipster. This is all of my fears manifest. And you say you're of two minds about this, Kyle.

This is hipsterism? I'm acting like a Bobby Knight disciple right now. This is not basketball. Hipster. I went on a rant about star screening. You know, call me a hipster, but I do have some old school ethic in the way I think about basketball. And I think that, like, I just, I want to say, I vetted this take with Joe House.

100% supported me. I don't think that I just, it's just about consistency. It's got a second source on this one. Hey, internet, you can think two things at once, it's okay. You can do that. I'm very, very much in on his, what he can do. I just think, like I'm saying, like,

this is the test. We were joking about Yokich, like I was telling Rob, I missed the old Yokich who was very uneven. I'm not comparing George to Yokch, but this difference in being a star and somebody who's very fun. I just think, let me ask you this question, Rob, Because my perception of this guy is he didn't pretend to be his star.

He, to me, looked more like Cam Johnson, who's a little bit more natural as a handler. Is that not like his ceiling? Were people expecting more from him? I think the lane frame is not even Cam Johnson. It's like the Iguodala Kirillenko, like not with that defensive pedigree, but has shown defensive potential is much more connector second side. And like the pick and roll stuff that he's doing right now is not his optimal role. Like, they do not want Kishon George to be LeBron James.

They just want him to be somebody who can handle the ball fluently and can participate in the offense in that way. And it's like, if you're shooting like he is and creating like he is, and he's like a really, like a really comfortable pocket passer, right? Like for a guy his size, something that not a lot of kind of forward-sized players are. Like, that's all of a sudden someone who can really hold your offense together, who can kind of be the ballast around all these creators or shooters or whatever the good version of the Wizards ends up being.

And like, yeah, the foul trouble is a real thing. The defensive intensity, like he's going to need to figure out. He's also a 22-year-old, Kyle, who's being trusted to guard, not only Lamello and Miles Bridges in the same game, but Janus and Anthony Davis. Like, he's being given big-time assignments. And I think mostly showing up to the level of them, like really performing well and bothering some of these guys.

I just don't want to get so far ahead of the take cycle with a Washington Wizard who is 22 years old that we are missing the part where he is a promising young player. and is showing things he's never shown before, and is disrupting on defense and scoring on offense and creating for other people in a way that is genuinely exciting to me. So let me have this, please. I reject this whole let's not miss. I literally said at the beginning that I see the thing.

So I just don't hit me with that. And Wizards fans, I know, listen, okay, I pumped them up in the offseason. I got a lot of nice Wizards feedback. It was nice to hear from them. We hadn't talked in a while. But I, because I just hadn't been anyway. But yeah, I just kind of am thinking about this team and I'm like, if he was going to be that, if he showed those flash, the conversation changed. That's kind of where I was coming from with. You were saying like what we thought of him, who he could be. When he starts to show those flashes, it's like, okay, how much is the conversation changing? Like, is who is the top asset in the pecking order of who they have right now? Is it still, you know, Bub Carrington showed some flat? Is it defensively? I'd still like for Alex Tsar not to lean back on his heels when he has somebody like concanipal size. on him when he's near the basket. I want him to just try to dunk everything. But he made me start

to think like, oh, this is like, this is really changing. Like he might be the best guy that they have. And if he is, you know, I just wanted to, I wanted to point that out. I'm kind of, they're like, without fouling part of it, I'm like, he's just standing straight up, like when an action is happening or like standing straight up off ball, not looking, not doing his like zoned up weak side assignment. I'm like, you're saying you think that that is just a symptom of he needs to learn to play without fouling. That's all. Okay, that's a real glass half. Okay. This is your Bobby Knight coming. Look, some guys can do that. If you are six, seven and active and have good instincts, like, watch Dyson Daniels play. He's upright sometimes. Like, it's just kind of like with your hands behind

your back, you're moving. I'm just trying to like, there's between that and just standing like the kid in the outfield thing. I'm just saying before you start throwing chairs at Kishon George, I will put my body in front of it. I will shield him and protect his development, all right? I've really screwed myself here because I do like him. I just was like, this one thing. I'm just like, this is the difference. I just want to see it. I want to see that happen for him. Okay. Well, I'm sure the Kishon George fan base of all five people. I'm going to just, I'm going to, this was a lose, lose. Never let you join the party again. All right. We're already an hour into this and we have another round to go through. Rob, you want to go? I would like to talk about the Toronto Raptors, who at this point, are.

just like the most feast or famine defense in the entire league. They only have those two zones. It's either they are stopping and swarming everything or they are attempting to stop and swarm everything and thus giving up every layup in existence and open shot. So they don't have an elite defense. They do at this point to my have the most active defense in the NBA. And I don't know if it's going to work for them long term. Clearly some of their personnel is suited for it and some of it is not.

But as far as curiosities of this first week, I love to see something like distinct in the NBA ecosystem. I love to see them trying this hyper-aggressive scheme to figure out if it's going to work for them. That's interesting because my takeaway from watching Toronto a couple times this weekend was, eh? Yeah. To be clear. Is all this for this?

Yeah. The response to the starting lineup is, oh yeah, I don't think this is going to work. Like those five guys do not know how to play together. Emmanuel quickly looks like he is trying to justify his existence every time he touches the ball. I just don't believe in the chemistry of that group, but all of these like, oh, all of a sudden, you know, shed is in here. Like you're getting into some different combinations of players

who are more active in different ways that are complementary. That's a version of the Raptors I can kind of believe in. Yeah, and I think the sad thing, Kyle, is also that the Raptors kind of clarified their vision for how they're going to play before they even started. Like there was this all like, oh, how much is Scott going to be on the ball versus Ingram? They said outright, like, oh, it's going to be Ingram's show, Scott. He's going to pretty much be Dunker's spot, getting his stuff more as a big guy. And even with that being said, I'm like, this still feels particularly sludgy.

Like, even quickly, like, you're right, he's doing a lot probably because he has been playing a while. But, like, the fact that he has any zip to him, I think stands out because there's so much beef packed into this lineup where it's just like, it's like having a steak and you're just like with a side of beef tartar on there. It's just like there's not a lot of dimension. to what's going on here. A lot of heavy bathroom visits with this Raptor, you know. A lot of carbs. Get the steak frets in there too.

I mean, yeah, I mean, they communicated that they're leaning into the bit, the fact that they took Colin Murray Boyles on top of all of that. I mean, the type of, they have a way that they want to play for sure. I mean, you've seen a lot of the optimism. There was, I was kind of surprised by the overwhelming optimism that I I observed from like Raptors media about Ingram's reformation. I don't know. Do we, is it just the simple thing of like Scotty and Ingram together?

Did they just feed into each other or is it more of a spatial what's around it kind of thing, do you think? I think it's literally every component of their starting lineup. Like it's not just Scotty and Ingram. It's all phases. It's Scotty and Pertle. It's RJ and Ingram. It's like every, every combination I don't really love. Would a stretch big make a big difference here?

well, ask Mamu. Or like just playing Grady Dick. But at the same time, I think RJ's probably been their best player thus far just because in part because he used to get now on the break and just doing his thing. It just doesn't require the other guys and to be like complimentary to that. Just Scotty, I don't know, man. There's times where he's going back and forth with Janus where he's flexing on him because he flexed on him. And like he'll do that. But then he'll just like he'll take a shot and it's just like, you're waiting for the bus, man, for that thing to get up in the first place.

and then it's flat. It's just, I just don't know how he fits in, and that's the guy you're presumably building around. I think he fits in most fluidly when they're in transition. Like, right, when they're getting out and running, and he can either facilitate for other people or be just kind of a cleaner finisher in an easier circumstance. And we should say this about the Raptors.

Like, they are the fastest offense in the league, basically period right now, at least one of the fastest offenses in the league. They're the fastest, though, coming off of a rebound. Like, they are getting out and trying to attack in the same way that the heat are trying to, attack. And I think of the games we've seen from them so far, there's just going to be some opponents that can't match their energy, right, that are just like caught off guard by the level

of pace and the level of intensity in terms of them trying to get out on the break and then everything they're throwing at teams with their defensive pressure. But if you can match that, if you can meet their level of energy, all of a sudden, all of their half-court offensive problems come to bear. All of these kind of like inconsistencies within the rotation become like major problems. you just have to find a way to slow them down and force them to play like actual half-court basketball. And if you can do that, they're a pretty flawed team. All right.

Well, on the complete opposite end of that, let's talk about AJ Mitchell because the Thunder are one of the few teams that are undefeated as we're recording this. We got the Spurs and Thunder as maybe expected. And then on the flip side, you got the Bulls and the 76ers. That's why I love the early season standings. But in the midst of the Thunder, not having J-dub, experiencing some injuries on top of that.

Crusoe's been out with a concussion. They may have found just like a starting point guard, just unearthed from their bench. Like we thought going into the season, like, oh, it's going to be the Chet leap incoming. Maybe we'll see some Topich minutes. We'll see with him run the show in the second unit, what he could do.

Cason Wallace can just add stuff on top of this. We have Shay going for back-to-back MVP. There's just a lot to explore on a team that is already so good and so solid. They didn't even really add anybody in the offseason. but so far the most intriguing part of the whole thing has been the 23 year old who they unearthed from the second round

who is making $3 million a year this year might be one of the best backup point guards in the league and someone who could potentially be a starter down the road here. I would like to think, I don't want to be any island situation here. I think we are all collectively

a part of the AJ Mitchell experience from the jump. I'm just, I'm honestly surprised that even he keeps exceeding the expectations that we had for him to begin. Rob doesn't get to be on the island. No, no. The grief, no, no, no. The grief. No, you and Waz do not get to be on the, on the island because you gave Justin and I so much shit for picking AJ Mitchell. Okay, that is not true. In the expansion draft last year, I want to go back to the tape on that. Every time AJ Mitchell has played well, I have texted Justin without fail. And all the

laughing during the finals. Everybody was like, oh, he took some shots when he got in. It's like, yeah, that's what he, they want him to do. It's okay, see. Well, go ahead and rebuttal. Go ahead, Rob. Let me hear it. I think we're on, on tape extensively on this podcast, praising A.J. Mitchell at basically every turn. So I simply will not hear it.

I'm pulling up my draft big board right now, and A.J. Mitchell is disproportionately high, I will say. I think I have him at 12th on my big board overall. So not high enough. We had him like three. Look, this is the problem. You guys, you guys jumped the line. You got AJ Mitchell. I was mad about it then.

I'm mad about it now. I've harbored these feelings ever since. But on this, I would hope that we can all come together and celebrate one of our guys having a huge moment being, as you alluded to, Justin, like just one of the most impressive players on a defending championship team, which is crazy for someone in his position. But he's lived up to everything they could have hoped he could be. And I just think a lot about the embarrassment of riches that the Thunder offense has. We talk about their defense all the time.

their offense is not the smoothest working machine in the world, but when it works, it really works. And one of the things they now have at their disposal is three different guys who operate at a pace and a cadence that basically no one can fully get their arms around. Like obviously no one can keep up with Shea. No one moves like him or has ever moved like him, basically in the history of the sport.

J. Dub also has that kind of like slinky, counterintuitive game that backfuts you. And A.J. Mitchell has some of that too, where he just like messes with your timing as a defender and is able to kind of bump and throw you off balance by the way he plays. How is a defense supposed to guard not only all the shooters, not only all the size and offensive rebounding, but three different guys that are just individually so difficult to get a feel for? Yeah, that type of player is harder to guard than just like an incendiary,

like, dust you with speed type of player because they don't, they imprison you. They just put you in that sort of state of like, you start, stop. And AJ has some of that going on. And I think OKC is just a victim of their own like organizational philosophical success. They've had a blueprint and they've stuck to it, you know, over and over and over again. That's like this is an OKC type player. And they almost have a Spursian type thing going on where they are really good at curating people that aren't going to like pout or be mad about their lack of opportunity or they continue to get better.

And AJ clearly has from his time that he spent with the G league. He kept getting better. And he, you know, now he's getting this opportunity. opportunity, it's just the rich continuing to get richer. It's just another, what do they, is he getting, when everybody's back and fully healthy, I think you hit it. It's like, we expected these leaps from these other people. It's just ridiculous that they're getting this from, from another guy. And they've taken a lot of bites at this apple. You know, it's interesting that, you know, Dylan, you know, Dylan Jones didn't quite fit it. So they shipped him off. They just keep taking these

swings at these guys. And you're, if you hit on one or two of them, even in these later second round or later first round picks, you know, you're going to have good choices to make down the road. Speaking of flashbacks, we talked about A.J. Mitchell for the first time, I think like about a year ago, we were doing with Kirk Goldsbury, that podcast about just like figuring out the West at that point. Thunder were really starting to pop. And I remember asking Dagonal about this specifically, about AJ Mitchell because he was becoming, he was just popping whenever in the few minutes he was playing. He was playing like 14 minutes a game. And he was just like, yeah, we were just, we threw him out there. and like he was chesting when he was guarding.

We're like, oh, that's pretty interesting. We'll just keep feeding him minutes and layering things on top of it. And he just kept rising to the occasion. He ultimately got hurt. He didn't play a lot in the regular season. But you could just see, like, the whole system. Like, I gush about it all the time because it's just like such a fascinating feeder, just way of looking at things where they're just playing guys,

even in big games just to get the minutes just to like not only explore the combinations, but also throw the opponent off. It's just like, it's so fascinating to me. To see that where he was just like a 22-year-old curio to now where it looks like he's like a legitimate component to this. It's like I look at Denver playing with a lot of flow offensively. They looked pretty awesome to the point where like Yogish doesn't even need to shoot at this point because they have all these other guys there to feed. It's just then you look back at the thunder where they're just breeding potential starters from the depths of their bench. It's just like at a certain point like you can't beat this like living breathing organism, you know?

Yeah, I mean, it really is insane the volume of what he's been able to produce just like scaling up out of nothing, right? This is not what you mentioned, Justin, like him popping in for a couple of minutes and having like a really productive stretch. This is not him just like having a one-off game like this. He has just been one of the steadiest players coming off the bench for any team in the entire league right now. And he does have those flashes where you think could this guy be a potential starter for the Thunder or otherwise? you look around the league, I'm counting like eight different teams who I think could credibly just like

plug AJ Mitchell in as their starting point guard and would be better for it. And that's not even including teams like the Rockets who are like, you know, playing an unusual style and could just use someone of his skill set, but he's not like a better player than Amman Thompson.

I'm just saying like straight of AJ Mitchell is better than a lot of starting point cards. And when J. Dub does come back full time, when, you know, the Thunder do have their full complement of players, I don't think he's going to get buried, but he is going to fall into the system, right? Like he is going to be a part of this thing. We'll see how prominently.

We'll see how forward facing. But this version of this player, I don't see why he couldn't be in a six man of the year conversation. I don't see why he couldn't be an incredibly relevant part of the Thunder's next playoff run. Like he just, he looks like an absolute monster out there. Let me ask you this, Kyle. Yeah. So their bench went healthy the Thunder. It's Mitchell, Caruso, Wallace, Wiggins,

Jay Will, right? Is that as a starting lineup better than any other team in the NBA? Now how we do that, like, can Kentucky beat this NBA team? Can the Thunder's Bench, for instance, beat the Nets tomorrow? I mean, just in terms of talent, obviously, you've got like positional issue there in terms of the side. You didn't say it big in there, did you? That was all cars.

Jay Will, yeah. Well, yeah. Tyler begging him to stop shooting threes was pretty entertaining the other night in the theater. Gosh, could they beat the Nets? I'm trying to think. The Jads? First of all, put some respect on the Nets. The Nets have been fighting with basically everybody right now.

I don't know how it's happening, but it is happening. Well, Cam Thomas is scoring 40 points and getting zero assists. Yes. That's literally happening against the Spurs. It is what it is. The Camp Thomas shot selection was incredible to watch. Again, I just have no idea how he makes the shots that he does, but he does make them from time to time. I was saying Sam Presti at the office in Oklahoma City must be like that episode of that, that old episode of Star Trek where they keep going around the ship and they open a thing and it's just full of tribles.

That's like, you know where the little fuzzy, the little, like, Z. So here's the thing. I don't even know the exact reference you're talking about, but isn't this episode called the trouble with tribles? Yeah, maybe. Well, let's just see, you know what I'm talking about. So he opened, yeah, they just opened it up and it's like their assets just keep multiplying. It's just, and it's like, what are you going to do with them? It's like, how are we going to play, AJ?

It's, it's, it's an embarrassed. I can't think of an organizational, I can't think of an organizational, like, embarrassment of riches like this in terms of, like, developmental talent and success. The Spurs are the, like, the Spurs were very good about that,

about cultivating their young guys. Even, like, I can't think of a good analog. It's a college football team. Like, you have the starting quarterback, where you have the next guy up, just ready to go and plug in there. Yeah, it's Alabama. Yeah, pre-transfer portal,

like where they could just have, like, a McDonald's. All American ready to roll or that's a basketball. But yeah, yeah, it's pretty incomparable from anything I can think of or remember. All right. Last one. Kyle, do you want to do your last guy? Yeah, I mean, we don't have to belabor this. But, you know, Cedric Coward, he's a dude.

If you followed the draft, he's had an odd, you know, he started out like Willamette. And he ended up at Eastern Washington. And he's had a fun, he's had a fun. I only learned when Lamet from visiting Portland. It's a lovely valley. Yeah, Williamette? Yeah, he's just somebody who came along had an interesting developmental story, another one of these, and he could always shoot the ball. We figured that would translate. He's in this incredible frame, and we were like, this seems like it's just going to work. And it took him like, I mean, he didn't have any kind of struggle to start. It's just kind of been a slow arc up so far. We figured that it projected that, you know, Morant would create paint touches. Coward would make threes. So far, that has been true. He finally, you know, he ultimately went bonkers against Indiana last night at 27 points. The shot making and stuff, I expected that.

I want to see if we can potentially get a sponsor for a segment. I would like to have a Kyle's big boy of the night or a big boy of the day because he had a moment in this game. Frischus seems like a natural. Well, first of all, who do you think is going to sponsor that? Is it like a Campbell's Chunky Soup situation? What are you feeling? It's a Frisius situation, right?

I mean, people still go to Frisch's, right? I don't know what you're talking about. If we're going to get the spot, you don't know what Frisius Big Boy is? No. Justin, do you have any awareness of Fris's Big Boy? Is it the, it's not the kid with the burger, is it? Yeah, he looks like Kyle Rittenhouse. Oh, sure.

I've never heard the name Frisch's. Jesus Christ. Not the reference I would have pulled, but, you know, apt, nonetheless. I can't believe you all have never heard of that. Isaiah, Victoria, have you all heard of Frisius Big Boy? Come on. Anybody?

I know the, I know the mask. Got. Yes. Did not know the name Frisch's? So it's a restaurant. We live and learn. The big boy. Anyway, he, the shot making, yes, expected that. But he had a couple moments where he exerted his will that were like, oh, oh, me, oh my. He had one where he had early, early offense transition. He had Jarrett Walker, not a small fellow in front of him. And Coward didn't, he didn't like just accidentally happen into this. He saw Jarus Walker in front of him and was like, I'm going to the rim on this dude. And he did. And he pivoted and did like a reverse like Rondoie right hand on the left side layup. And it was like, you heard a reaction from Quinn Buckner on the broadcast. He was like, oh, it was one of those. And they keep running these actions where he'll come off of like a flex screen towards the ball and come to the middle of the floor. And he's just so big and physical, man. He's adding wrinkles for them that I think are really interesting. It's hard to put a ceiling on it because he even is making some nice like flip the floor. He had a nice like baseline skip pass. Granted, you know, Indiana is in shambles right now, but he was doing some things in like one-off situations where I was like, if he can attack mismatches like this, that's a nice thing for Memphis to have. He's adding a lot of stuff. So to chart his kind of trajectory here for the uninitiated. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to like write him off next game forever is what you're going to say, right?

So, no, no, I'm saying in terms of his backstory, Division III will lamb it, then Eastern Washington. And then Washington. and then Washington State last year gets her only plays a couple of games, but shows enough in order to commit to Duke for this upcoming season, but gets so much momentum in the draft process, not only goes in the lottery, the Grizzlies trade up in order to get him just a free physical athlete, 7-2 wingspan, I think. I think it's over 7-2 at this point.

I think the crazy thing for me, though, Rob, is like I thought he would be more of a 3-D type in terms of body type. to me looks a little bit more like aunt, you know, like that kind of powerful, compact. He looks like Usman Jang out there. Like he looks giant relative to some of these guys. But he has like,

he has like a low center of gravity running back style where like you could definitely see if he puts on the weight in the way that it has. Like it's a fucking, he's a linebacker at this point. But like, you know, he has that running back build to the point where I'm wondering like, can he be that sort of ball handler?

Because when I'm looking at the grizzlies long term, I'm thinking like if he hits, they kind of have everything plotted out here where it's Jod, Jalen Wells, Jaron Jackson, maybe Zach Eady or whatever center is healthy at the time, and then him, such a coward. But if that's the case, he needs to be able to do a little bit on the ball. What do you think about that long term? Yeah, you can feel that gap in terms of the Grizzly's knees. And I thought like Jaron expanding his work off the dribble last season helped them get part of the way. But they really do need someone else who can create a little bit and who can read a little bit in a way that Jaron doesn't quite navigate the floor.

That's the part of the Sedger Coward experience I've been quite pleasantly surprised by is just like the very, like nothing too complicated, just very easy like when are your teammates open on your drives and when are you setting them up? To me is one of the great dividing points among young prospects. There are some guys who are just like perpetual works in progress when it comes to the timing of like when you throw the lob, when you throw the bounce pass, who is open when, like watch with all due respect like Ron Holland play basketball. And it's like sometimes he gets it, sometimes he doesn't.

Like sometimes that timing is there. Sometimes it feels really clunky. From what I have seen of Cedric Coward, which is admittedly minimal so far in terms of his NBA tenure, he just has some of that feel. And it's like if he can be that kind of secondary creator and shoot the ever-living shit out of the ball in the way that he has been and have this length that he can flex on potentially even bigger defenders in the ways that we've seen, Kyle, like I'm trying not to get irresponsible. Like what is the next, like what is the shoe to drop for someone like me who is just getting

initiated into Cedric Cowherd, what is the thing that 20 games from now when he comes back to Earth, what is the weight that's going to be pulling him down a little bit? At this point, I think he's probably like a one to three dribble. Like he's not somebody that's going to, it's a quick decision type thing because the handle is the thing that has been his, because he was kind of playing as a big early in his college career and then he's drifted into shooting the ball from three more. He's very, you were talking about aunt, like he's, he is a very, the optics of him as an athlete are like, wowza. Like he has built like a classic ISO NBA wing from the 90s. But when you watch and play, he's not twitchy like that. He's a little more powerful. You mentioned the running back thing.

It's like he was able to do that to Jarrett, not because he just like woo-whom like cat-like speed to the rim. It was like he hit him. He's that kind of athlete. So I think the thing that will strain him like leveling up and becoming somebody that's like a full-blown decision maker for them is can he be more of a granted? I don't like guys who are just pounding. the shit out of the ball in any situation. But I think that's for him to become more of a decision maker that handle will have to make a leap.

But man, he's on such an arc. Granted, handle is the hardest thing to make a big leap at the NBA. If you listen to him talk, he's a really bright, really focused kid. So I don't know. I hesitate to underestimate him, honestly, at this point. I've been really impressed with him.

How many Awugas would you give him out of five to start the season? Awukas. Oh, girl. You're just doing a little, have a little soundboard thing going there. Oh, yeah. I mean, I did a hold the damn phone when he, when he did that. A couple of the matchups that he hunted down.

I wanted to say my other, just quickly, my other friscious big boy of the day was Dylan Harper just disrespectfully ripping Yeager Demone in the back court. And then getting the ball, Yeager was like, you're not going to stop me. and he got in front of him. I'm sure that's exactly how he said. A Batman, Dylan. Yeah. Dylan was like, no, I'm going to score through you. So ripped him and then just scored through his chin. It was a big boy moment there.

Isaiah and Victoria haven't heard of Frisius, by the way. So we're not doing well on that front. What's funny about that about Dylan Harper is I went to go tweet for the first time in like six months. I was like after Harper had those two transition buckets, I was like, that's some big boy stuff. And then I saw that you'd already call them a big boy. who we're all collective big boys again just out flanking us left and right i don't i don't like this new dynamic of the pod all right why don't we wrap it there uh we'll be back on wednesday thank you to victoria valencia thank you to isaiah blakely we will talk to you next time

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